T3 SMs everywhere, disgusting — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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T3 SMs everywhere, disgusting

Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited February 21, 2021 in WvW

Dilemma

Yep, it doesn't matter which tier you go to, there is T3 SM with people camping siege and guilds hiding in lord rooms.

This is what WvW has become, T3 SM fiesta, as if the borders aren't bad enough with the current fast upgrade times, EB has to be ruined even harder.

Well at least they added 10th class to the game: Cannoneer, as it seems.

Nobody is saying we should go back to ktrain meta but this is just ridiculous as it is.

Solution

It is time to increase SM upgrade time by 300%. There is no logic why it requires same amount of dollies as towers. Upgrade times of keeps should also be upped by 100%, too many full T3 borderlands, not everyone runs 40 man guilds. Stop treating us like we are stupid, we don't need every objective to require same amount to upgrade, maintaining logical balancing and fun mapstate is way more important.

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Comments

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2021

    SMC and enemy objectives shouldn't be upgradeable, period. Upgrades should be for defensive purposes only.

    Also increase damage to gates from players by 1000% and from Flame Rams by 100%. No one even attacks gates anymore unless there's no wall to attack because its literally the worst way to siege an objective at this point.

    Attacking walls should be a ranged tactic used as a last resort on heavily defended forts.

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  • Henrik.7560Henrik.7560 Member ✭✭✭

    t3 smc sucks especially when pug heavy servers just hump it all day and you can't do anything about it because of the amount of unhittable siege they can stock pile on third floor.
    Should be limitted to tier 2 at most, and something should be done about the siege spam, remove some of the cannons and third floor kitten.

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  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2021

    @Threather.9354 said:
    It is time to increase SM upgrade time by 300%.

    Which is not a solution. That's kicking the can down the road. You will still have T3 SM everywhere... it'll just take longer.

    The solution to this lie in the supply system and would affect all objectives, not just a narrowminded spotlight only on SM. We really should stop considering the tiers a permanent thing and adapt a more dynamic solution where you can actually siege objectives and downgrade them as they run out of supplies and is starved of dollys - or "worst" case scenario, get the fight outside the objectives accomplish that.

    Combine this with far less exponential PPT from increasing tiers and you could fix the scoring system at the same time and you could even INCREASE the speed of upgrades (and thus downgrades) to make it more intense gameplay where players can make a difference without spending 5+ hours to do something.

    But Anet obviously hasnt considered this a problem since they implemenent the new skirmish and upgrade system, so there you go. Nothing gonna happen.

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  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This is directly related to population imbalances. At times when all 3 sides have equal numbers, SM is flipped frequently (at least in EU, can't speak about NA). So fix the cause and you will also fix the issue. What you suggested are just bandaids.

    The whole point of SM is, that it is pretty much all the time a battle between 3 sides and so is impossible to hold for forever for one side - IF the populations are balanced.

  • Chips.7968Chips.7968 Member ✭✭
    edited February 21, 2021

    I've no idea what the server of the OP is - but for EU your post was like 5am. There's a few servers with a night crowd - hence how the flip everything early doors and sometimes get T3's on your home borders before there's more than 5 people online for your own server.

    Changing time to upgrade won't make much difference. If you want things to be easier to flip then remove T3. Or remove upgrades entirely? Or make the walls even weaker*

    Making things arbitrarily longer to "fix" the fact that SM can be upgraded to T3 when no-one is around to kill dollies or flip camps at the very least, is a bit severe a "fix".

    *if they weaken things once more to make it easier to flip - can Anet look at removing desert because the exceptional amount of time spent running around utterly useless, vacant, pointless trash space is ridiculously pointless.

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Tbh the problem lies in coverage, as others have said. You can make it take 6h to upgrade if you want, but if one server's got overnight coverage against two that have no roamers flipping camps, you're still gonna wake up to a T3 SM. And why shouldn't you see a T3 SM if there's nobody there to stop it? Their play time is as valid as ours, there's a reason real life armies have night sentries etc, if you have nobody watching you can't complain if people take advantage of that. Short of removing the wall/gate upgrade system altogether and standardising the toughness of objectives, changing the time to upgrade will achieve nothing.

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  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2021

    While I don't necessarily disagree with the outlook of this thread (it is pretty boring to see SM so stale), I'd have to chime in with the other people who have already mentioned it here: It is just a sign of the times.

    This, like most other things, is tied to how there is just so much more unorganized clouding going on to so much less organized squads. SM gets upgraded more and more these days because many servers have begun treating EBG as an overflow because so many people just go there to cloud while they wait for queues. Whatever server dominates the matchup just ends up holding SM for a very long time. Making it upgrade slower will do little to nothing to change that. Most servers simply have trouble getting a group that is equipped to break a cloud with siege onto that map. It often ends up being cloud v. cloud outside the walls instead. The objectives would flip more if EBG was more of an alternative to form groups on or move groups to. EBG has taken over the role of HBL for many servers in that regard. It is also similar to when people suggest ticks for EotM as that might clear some of the people using any map as an overflow, for pip-ing out or for maintaining pips while they wait for a queue. On the other hand, the far superior solutions to any of these problems is to look at the overall infrastructure of WvW (server- and map backends) with things like Alliances and EotM's backend tech rather than just making its map more appealing to karmatrain on. It's the same old story really and all the roads lead to Rome.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2021

    People, if it takes all day to upgrade SM, not only it requires organization but it also comes with glory.

    Obviously SM that takes 4 times longer to upgrade is spends also several times longer unupgraded as it is also easier to lose. So instead of T3 SM existing every day, it might only exist every 4 days. Much better situation, I really fail to see your guys logic that "it does little to nothing".

    Yes upgraded SM will always be troublematic because claim buff giving +25% movement speed allowing roamers like DPS guardian to not get ran down. Also +6% damage and +10% defense from the claim buff is nothing to scoff at either considering SM wasn't easy to take pre-HoT either. Yes Claim buff is very troublematic existance considering it hasn't been balanced since its release, but the overly reduced upgrade times are very important issue to fix as well.

    But increasing upgrade times of keeps and castles will make the map state much more fun.

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  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You're right OP, it IS disgusting.
    But the problem isn't about SMC being difficult to take as it flips easily with time and concerted effort.
    The problem is how easy everything else is to take. Why bother putting 2 hours into starving supply and destroying siege when you can flip a tower in seconds or a keep in minutes? If your goal is champ bags or PPT then SMC is the obvious skip.. And that's where 90% of the population is at right now.

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  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2021

    @Threather.9354 said:
    People, if it takes all day to upgrade SM, not only it requires organization but it also comes with glory.

    Obviously SM that takes 4 times longer to upgrade is spends also several times longer unupgraded as it is also easier to lose. So instead of T3 SM existing every day, it might only exist every 4 days. Much better situation, I really fail to see your guys logic that "it does little to nothing".

    The logic is that this wouldn't be necessary when each tier was actually equal in strength (the combination of numbers, organisation and skill level) like it should be. This leads to the conclusion that increasing the upgrading time is just a bandaid.

    SM has weak spots everywhere and constantly be sieged. Combine that with the fact, that the defenders have to defend it against 2 sides and it becomes balanced and you can reduce the issues to "one side is as strong or even stronger than the other two sides together" and if this happens, then we don't need to talk about stone mist but about general population balancing.

    In the matchups I witness, a T3 SM for days is only a symptome of a badly balanced matchup and this matchup isn't fun on any of the 4 maps.

  • Junkpile.7439Junkpile.7439 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's always same. Strongest server own t3 sm, 2nd server try to cap it and 3rd server wait that fight start in sm and attack 2nd server towers.

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  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2021

    Hm, a t3 smc is both a problem and a boon actually.

    When it isn't fully upgraded it's easy to break in and maybe even take, but unfortunately it also tends to take most of the focus of the map zergs, leaving everywhere else free to upgrade unless the roamer and small groups are active in taking stuff. Two hours into reset night you can see t3 keeps and inner towers. When it is fully upgraded it's much harder to break and take, sometimes even needs to provoke a 2v1 on it, but it also pushes groups to focus elsewhere on the map until the ideal times to sneak it.

    I don't think SMC should have a t3 upgrade actually, but they probably should at least double or even triple up the dolyaks required for upgrade levels, and also cut it's max supply limit down in half. Still the most important thing to do is to take enemy camps to slow down the upgrade process, and even a roamer can do this.

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  • Shroud.2307Shroud.2307 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Problem is 99% of players have 0 interest in putting actual effort in to doing anything. Can't tell you the amount of times I've been the reason an objective flips. And I don't say that as in "it was all me!", but rather that I'm the one who weakens/opens things, makes call outs, and go out of my way to ensure we have a good chance at doing what we're setting out to do (eg. tapping Waypoints). If I didn't do those things everyone would continue to AFK or float around doing nothing.

    Same thing happens for SMC. I take out Cannons, I destroy Siege, I open walls/gates, etc., and I do it all on my own. It doesn't always result in SMC flipping, but often times people will see openings, start to rally, and a zerg eventually forms that's large enough to commit.
    If more players actually took initiative in doing these things T3 SMC would be less common.

    If you're not doing anything other than sitting on your thumb waiting for a Commander or you're bored you can't find fights, the fastest way to get action is to start pestering your enemy's objectives. You don't need anything but patience...

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  • Ubi.4136Ubi.4136 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Things that should happen to SMC:
    Remove the supply huts. Make running supply from your own third, and maintaining supply lines, important.
    The castle should not be an easy 1800 supply for the biggest server in every match.

    The time to upgrade is fine and it would still require yaks to upgrade it.

    Other notable mentions that affect SMC:
    Remove all siege except rams and oil. Limit rams on a gate to 3. If the mega blob wants to hide in SMC, great. But, they should not be able to treb down 6 towers from the safety of fortified, siege capped SMC.

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  • Junkpile.7439Junkpile.7439 Member ✭✭✭✭

    And ban trebs in sm. It's so lame how macrousers spam trebs 24/7.

    Low quality trolling since launch
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  • hunkamania.7561hunkamania.7561 Member ✭✭✭✭

    it's cool when it's paper. when it's T3 it's puke worthy at times when held by the right server

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  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    people > npc. This is ok that we have now.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:
    The solution to this lie in the supply system and would affect all objectives, not just a narrowminded spotlight only on SM. We really should stop considering the tiers a permanent thing and adapt a more dynamic solution where you can actually siege objectives and downgrade them as they run out of supplies and is starved of dollys - or "worst" case scenario, get the fight outside the objectives accomplish that.

    I've had a similar idea in the past. There should be an upkeep cost once a tower/keep/castle reaches T3. This could be just to ensure dollys keep coming in. If they don't then something would happen to the structure (downgrades or takes damage for example). This would give a counter to bunkers as it gives camps more importance and forces people out to defend them.

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭✭

    in the end this is just parallel the the fact that objectives are worth nothing. u can technically camp SM with a strong group and just farm - and that is legit, if you have no people otherwise (because: last relink messed up your population, your server doesn't play on desert for reasons)

    it's also often not possible nor worth seriously defending a t3 SM though. cloudheavy servers just mass-suicide when it gets attacked, just to kill 2 pieces of siege. rangers 1700 phantomrange, cannons, trebs, ele showers, stealthclasses with disablers... pick your pepega.

    in one matchup we also defended it, but camping and defense tagging for it so people notice where the attackers amass is boring as hell in the end. after 2 hours roughly its t3, then the real downfall begins. t3 is the worst for "big shiny castle", since it can be opened fully at outer without much effort and really fast. and pugs of any server with lacking experience WILL just waste all supps to repair outer. and once outer is a swiss cheese, inner is ripe to be poked over and over. (that's kinda your solution... make them empty all supp stocks. takes a while, but easy once it is t3 actually.)

    the real problem for the attackers is, that EBG has a consistent population of people who don't participate in the group play structures. even, a lot of those. therefore, defending goes easier than attacking.

    therefore in the end, this all has absolutely nothing to do with siege. u can just pew pew cannons down like everything with a fast and structured group from the right angle (rangers, staff ele, staff scrouge, deadeye can all hit em)... if ur sneaky enough and if that'd be worth it, u can even have a mesmer portaling to the spot so the enemy cannot react with countermeasures in time.

    so we finally just come back the the major problem of the link system, the smaller border caps also make this worse. with 30 random opentag people u just wont beat a 55 people cloud with buffed stats due to keep buffs, that runs full glass dps. even independent of all the siegestuff.

    further... for me personally, the only reason to defend anything is bags and kills. i care 0,000001% about the objectives really.

    even if hbl garri flips, so be it. if 20 cloudy people go there to defend against 40, there's a point where i just stop trying. new player groups u may get with just a fast aggro push, but if 20-30 ppters flip t0 bay in meantime while garri t3 gets lost to a big group, that's what current Wvw is in higher tiers sort of.

    and there we come to the final part. winning ppt is worth absolutely nothing. it's even bad if you'd go to worst tier, t1, due to excessively ppt'ing, bc u become a bandwagon target for pugs. or rather, for people who you will just never see anywhere.


    i'm convinced IF the transferring system and the world creation system was bound to special status guilds called "Wvw-guilds" would be like suggested in the Alliances update preview, that would fix quite some issues.

    additionally, different queue priority. +4 blobsize squads, +3 guild groups of 20+ players, +2 wvw guild people and all groups of 20+ players, +1 wvw guilds outside of groups, +0 everyone else (-2 rangers and thieves kek)

    maybe do it like pvE and offer +1 and +0 a small bonus to WXP and magic find if they swap map when theres a Q.

    additionally, better rewards. cannot be stressed enough. as long as ppt is only for ego, why would any sane person do it seriously instead just seeking big groups to farm? why ever would u deal with ppl who bunker up in siege-filled fortresses, that can permacycle like 20 barrages constantly onto your heads, if all u get is a paper keep that brings u sorta worthless ppt score only?

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kamikharzeeh.8016 said:
    additionally, different queue priority. +4 blobsize squads, +3 guild groups of 20+ players, +2 wvw guild people and all groups of 20+ players, +1 wvw guilds outside of groups, +0 everyone else (-2 rangers and thieves kek)

    And when blobs and guilds have priority, when they've asked everyone else to leave the border so that they can fight instead of PPT... they will still demand the thieves and rangers do their kitten job and PPT those camps.

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    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @kamikharzeeh.8016 said:
    additionally, different queue priority. +4 blobsize squads, +3 guild groups of 20+ players, +2 wvw guild people and all groups of 20+ players, +1 wvw guilds outside of groups, +0 everyone else (-2 rangers and thieves kek)

    And when blobs and guilds have priority, when they've asked everyone else to leave the border so that they can fight instead of PPT... they will still demand the thieves and rangers do their kitten job and PPT those camps.

    I guess you play with some real ‘young cats’ as on my server, even with the links, I have rarely seen (like twice in a year) people calling for others to leave a map.

    It just isn’t something I see...

    We did have one guild a couple years ago that would pull an EWP in a BL to get people off the map they wanted, but even that was a rarity. That was actually kind of funny.. especially as people figured it out.

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  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 i'd have smallscale sets rather ppt instead of dying left and right and rallying the enemy. or giving out the squads position, most are not doing the cleaving downed part also. pugs place is assistance dmg and cleanup to avoid rallies, even very old servers knew this. there's some funny videos on youtube about it, which are dated back to like 2013-14 i think.

    if a border is full and you still have 30-35 only only on the squad, and people panic-post on teamchat "blob garri" ten times, then yeah, it'd be nice if everyone not interested in largescale but interesting in keeping the ppt would leave the border. 2-3 people per close camps are enough to keep those safe, which is roughly 10 smallscale/70, but not 30 who afk or camp towers... that's not directed against anyone, but don't expect 30-35 people to wipe blobs of 45-60 size for you. esp since its random who enters the maps then, since everyone can press the borderbutton. means u may get some more roamers even in, and your firebrands or scrappers are stuck in Q.

    and yeah, if the support is in Q, it is very difficult to break through bigger sized squad, if not full impossible. (and we talk of similar button press levels, which u can never now - Wvw is simply the definition of unblance. which is why more balance funnily only will make it feel worse and worse)

    @Strider Pj.2193 that fake-EWP pull is mostly done without any note by the numerous weirdo trolls. sometimes someone randomly notices and spams it on teamchat.

    other times people just want to clean another border, which semi works (bc it won't work often, many ppl don't take those EWPs bc baits alike are known), but well. many don't take EWPs anymore bc it's 30-40%ish plainly trolls pulling and randoms spamming them on teamchat. i also often wait too long, bc i gotta check the (usually very unprecise) reports before, esp if i am on a border where the Q will be huge after we killed the attacking group. and i don't help 5 defenders against 10 attackers when i gotta wait then till a 20ish Q pops.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 that fake-EWP pull is mostly done without any note by the numerous weirdo trolls. sometimes someone randomly notices and spams it on teamchat.

    I get it. I was only referencing the guild who did it on our server with a specific goal in mind.

    I’ve played a week or 400.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭✭

    yeah, i'm aware of those... raged enough about it on teamchat when i was playing more casual. i only commented on that bc the % of the people who do it to "break Q's" is far smaller than accident or other fail-alert pulls, from my experience at least. (also, to provide more context to other readers, eventually)