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Nerf blob sustain.

Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited February 21, 2021 in WvW

What do i even need to say ? Nerf that kitten,all of it. Its proper kitten. Reflect forever,block forever,heals forever,cleanses forever. Fix your game,its broke beyond kitten.

Comments

  • i think such a big change would include changes to targeting, priority, aoe pulses/ duration/ radius, not just green number tweaks.

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2021

    Target caps should be doubled on offensive skills which would literally half the "spread" of damage in zergs. By doing that and leaving the number of targets for support skills at five after the recent changes, it'd give smaller groups the advantage.

    The problem with building a game around using siege for zergbusting is they can just build a balli and destroy it in 5sec, and a zerg will always have an advantage at building siege due to increasing builders, blueprints and supplies, so players need to be capable of their own "siege warfare". I've seen this done in other RvR games and it does work.

    In the early days we somewhat had this with skills like Meteor Shower, but hard nerfs ruined those tactics.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 23 charas, 18k hours, 29k AP | ♀♥♀
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  • Shroud.2307Shroud.2307 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Game is too far powercrept to fix it now.

    Blobbing is always going to form a meta people don't enjoy. The problem isn't so much the meta as it is that it goes for so long without changing. People can deal with a dumb meta for a couple months, like full on pirate ship for example. But when it's the same things for as long as it has been, it gets stale. Same problem in PvP.

    There are a lot of imbalances and I AM NOT saying WvW metas (roam, zerg, small scale, etc.) are fine and dandy, but it's also in an okay spot compared to some of the previous metas.

    Necro/Engi/Ranger/Rev | Maguuma | Diamond Legend
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  • jul.7602jul.7602 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Target caps should be doubled on offensive skills which would literally half the "spread" of damage in zergs. By doing that and leaving the number of targets for support skills at five after the recent changes, it'd give smaller groups the advantage.

    The problem with building a game around using siege for zergbusting is they can just build a balli and destroy it in 5sec, and a zerg will always have an advantage at building siege due to increasing builders, blueprints and supplies, so players need to be capable of their own "siege warfare". I've seen this done in other RvR games and it does work.

    In the early days we somewhat had this with skills like Meteor Shower, but hard nerfs ruined those tactics.

    We have a winner.

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 u do realize that this was kinda what many AoE has been? target caps got reduced because apparently less server traffic by that

    problem we have here, defending would be even easier with this than it is yet. a proper sieged up keep is hard to sustain (unless it isn't defended at all)


    i personally think the old damage is better since all classes are designed on this "fast combat" ... currently it is not extremly fast, areadamage need to be stacked to deal the "real" damage. in good blobfights that takes several pushes.

    now if we nerf all sustain, it'd be just more pirateship... i really don't want a single nerf on sustain for groupbased fights. Anet is free to nerf the personal sustain stuff of classes, but group supporters need their role to be alive. AoE dps and sustain are what makes the base core of Wvw.


    also, we might again remember that EoD will come out this year, in some months (?) ... nerfing everything to cruel would just make the new elite specs too brokenly storng (and i have no doubt that they will be pretty good)

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Target caps should be doubled on offensive skills which would literally half the "spread" of damage in zergs. By doing that and leaving the number of targets for support skills at five after the recent changes, it'd give smaller groups the advantage.

    The problem with building a game around using siege for zergbusting is they can just build a balli and destroy it in 5sec, and a zerg will always have an advantage at building siege due to increasing builders, blueprints and supplies, so players need to be capable of their own "siege warfare". I've seen this done in other RvR games and it does work.

    In the early days we somewhat had this with skills like Meteor Shower, but hard nerfs ruined those tactics.

    Yes please. I would love to make a blob of reapers and tempests and just one shot shout the stupid clouds dead whilst they think they can wipe my parties with actual sustain out because they can hit more people.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A boon that makes your other boons happen more often i think what realty made blob sustain the worst it could be. Every class having Alacrity is a problem be that though a skill that gives Alacrity or the more likely way of converting chill into Alacrity.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    the main concept of wvw is blob. So nerf blob is kill current wvw state.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hunkamania.7561 because several things got nerfed quite hard yet. necros got big nerfs and some people called them for dead when those nerfs hit... class is still good tho.

    and again, anything should be nerfed, but not group-skills. all the singletarget stuff can be tuned down. ranger barrage may be nerfed, since it has a unfair angle - line of sight not needed for a big range aoe is kinda weird, esp since ele doesn't get the same there. even with mortarkit engi u need to do special positioning to get a fair angle.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hunkamania.7561 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @hunkamania.7561 said:
    they got 50 million engis in every blob it seems converting any condi into ezpz boons. They nerfed all the dps and didn't touch engi that has

    • ezpz no skill stealth
    • boons for free by just condi clearing
    • best healer by a country mile
    • 80%-90% superspeed uptime

    i'm sure I missed some things but hitting a blob feels like hitting a brick wall these days is all i'm saying...

    Yet the blob that wins is often the one that has 50 million necros so that they can bomb the enemy blob into oblivion in seconds.

    Even if they deleted the scrapper, you would either see:
    A ) More AoE healing, more stab and boons, about as much stealth (couple more mesmers, a portion of scrappers would be replaced by tempests again and others would be firebrands)
    B ) More condi damage (with less cleansing sustain, zergs would go more red carpet of death).

    Yay...?

    What should happen is blanket nerf on AoE boons and boon duration for all classes, all sigils, all runes. Add a blanket nerf to all passive and basic AoE healing as well and instead strengthen combo fields, like how it was in GW2 vanilla.

    But no. It's the eeeeeeevil scrappers fault! Because Purity Of Purpose.

    Lets just also completely ignore the kitten firebrand that dominate zerg support.

    What's necro's have to do with with the facts i stated? you cannot tell me that engi isn't overtuned atm. It got 0 nerfs when it was the top tier secondary support now it's not even close.

    Guardian heals are nerfed to the ground my guy. It's mostly a boon bot atm.

    And yet the firebrand is still the top tier primary support, is it not?

    Also, 0 nerfs? The competetive split absolutely gutted many traits. Healing modifiers got cut in half. Yes that includes purity of purpose, which saw a 50-75% reduction in boon durations. And yet the scrapper is more common than ever. This alone should tell you it is a global problem. Even deleting it would do nothing, other classes pick up the slack because they are equally as strong or stronger.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2021

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @hunkamania.7561 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @hunkamania.7561 said:
    they got 50 million engis in every blob it seems converting any condi into ezpz boons. They nerfed all the dps and didn't touch engi that has

    • ezpz no skill stealth
    • boons for free by just condi clearing
    • best healer by a country mile
    • 80%-90% superspeed uptime

    i'm sure I missed some things but hitting a blob feels like hitting a brick wall these days is all i'm saying...

    Yet the blob that wins is often the one that has 50 million necros so that they can bomb the enemy blob into oblivion in seconds.

    Even if they deleted the scrapper, you would either see:
    A ) More AoE healing, more stab and boons, about as much stealth (couple more mesmers, a portion of scrappers would be replaced by tempests again and others would be firebrands)
    B ) More condi damage (with less cleansing sustain, zergs would go more red carpet of death).

    Yay...?

    What should happen is blanket nerf on AoE boons and boon duration for all classes, all sigils, all runes. Add a blanket nerf to all passive and basic AoE healing as well and instead strengthen combo fields, like how it was in GW2 vanilla.

    But no. It's the eeeeeeevil scrappers fault! Because Purity Of Purpose.

    Lets just also completely ignore the kitten firebrand that dominate zerg support.

    What's necro's have to do with with the facts i stated? you cannot tell me that engi isn't overtuned atm. It got 0 nerfs when it was the top tier secondary support now it's not even close.

    Guardian heals are nerfed to the ground my guy. It's mostly a boon bot atm.

    And yet the firebrand is still the top tier primary support, is it not?

    Also, 0 nerfs? The competetive split absolutely gutted many traits. Healing modifiers got cut in half. Yes that includes purity of purpose, which saw a 50-75% reduction in boon durations. And yet the scrapper is more common than ever. This alone should tell you it is a global problem. Even deleting it would do nothing, other classes pick up the slack because they are equally as strong or stronger.

    Purity of Purpose is a problem. Even when the boons it creates have only a 1 second base duration, the group mechanic of this trait is too strong.

    Scourge has a similar mechanic, but it works only on the scourge. Image how ridiculous scourge would be if it could share the effect of Feed from Corruption with its group (even at reduced durations).

    Long story short: Purity of Purpose should just work for the engineer itself, but not for the group. The boon durations should increase slightly as a compensation of course.

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2021

    Do you remember when ArenaNet commented on data from PvE, pointing out that experienced players did 10x the damage of inexperienced players? Something similar applies to WvW and not just in regard to damage done. The groups that are the best at whatever the current meta is were better than you at whatever the meta was before or what it would come to be with changes that you suggest.

    It may sound cold but I am actually trying to help out by pointing that out. There are far too many self-delusional complaints here these days as the forums are full of nabs and tower heroes. You can't really make suggestions that even out the difference in ability or experience. Even if you could that would be no fun as it would imply a hyper simplification of the game. Instead, if you want an adequate understanding of whether the game is too tanky or too bursty, look at what those groups that you find oppressive are capable of doing to each other. That should give you a good idea of what is possible or not or exactly how tanky or bursty the meta is. Do they tank each other forever or just you? Do they one-push each other or just you?

    Also, consider that the behaviour of the "good" groups tend to work in the reverse of how you believe it to work. When the meta is bursty, the "good" groups look to optimize survival. When the meta is tanky the "good" groups look to optimize effective damage. If the balance is leaning towards the tanky it rewards playing aggressively coordinated. Many "good" groups find that more fun, when aggression is challenging and rewarded. They find it less fun when cautiousness is challenging and rewarded. They will get rewarded either way though.

    Let's look at some trends right now that I think most of you here have not noticed already:

    • Some good groups have stopped using Minstrel Firebrands (Yes, you read that right)
    • Some good groups have begun using high-damage flex-distance builds again, like Berserkers (Yes, melee damage, at least in part)
    • Some good groups have begun using things like Thieves and Rangers even on maps and when larger than 15 (Yes, not just GvG)

    These are just some of the more popular risk-rewarding opts popping up here and there now (with damage given more value) and may affect future meta.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    Does anyone actually have any arguments about PoP being overtuned/overpowered? Or is 'People get boons if you cure their conditions' all you've really got?

    The only thing I really see being problematic is the fact chill gets converted to alacrity, which allows the scrapper to get an okay uptime of a boon it generally should not get access to. Chill is also not nearly as uncommon as it should be, and something as simple as a tempest support putting out frost aura occasionally allows a squad to gain way more alacrity than it should (which acts as an inadvertent nerf to the tempest too).

    And possibly that immobilize gets converted to resistance, but resistance does not get converted to immobilize (please do not bring that back).

    Keep in mind purity of purpose use to exist on e-gun cleanses only (which is 60% of a scrappers cleanses anyway) long before PoP came about with
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Inversion_Enzyme and scrappers still didn't get used as supports. It started getting looked at in the May 2018 update when MDF got a huge buff, Med kit got reworked, and defense field applied stability. That was 3 months where PoP existed and scrappers were 'meh'. They became staple in start of 2019 with the gyro/superspeed rework (compounded by the anti-toxin rune silliness). So I remain skeptical that PoP is in any way a problem beyond the resistance/alacrity access it gives scrappers (which is a small acceptable change that shouldn't be 'hard' to implement)

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2021

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @hunkamania.7561 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @hunkamania.7561 said:
    they got 50 million engis in every blob it seems converting any condi into ezpz boons. They nerfed all the dps and didn't touch engi that has

    • ezpz no skill stealth
    • boons for free by just condi clearing
    • best healer by a country mile
    • 80%-90% superspeed uptime

    i'm sure I missed some things but hitting a blob feels like hitting a brick wall these days is all i'm saying...

    Yet the blob that wins is often the one that has 50 million necros so that they can bomb the enemy blob into oblivion in seconds.

    Even if they deleted the scrapper, you would either see:
    A ) More AoE healing, more stab and boons, about as much stealth (couple more mesmers, a portion of scrappers would be replaced by tempests again and others would be firebrands)
    B ) More condi damage (with less cleansing sustain, zergs would go more red carpet of death).

    Yay...?

    What should happen is blanket nerf on AoE boons and boon duration for all classes, all sigils, all runes. Add a blanket nerf to all passive and basic AoE healing as well and instead strengthen combo fields, like how it was in GW2 vanilla.

    But no. It's the eeeeeeevil scrappers fault! Because Purity Of Purpose.

    Lets just also completely ignore the kitten firebrand that dominate zerg support.

    What's necro's have to do with with the facts i stated? you cannot tell me that engi isn't overtuned atm. It got 0 nerfs when it was the top tier secondary support now it's not even close.

    Guardian heals are nerfed to the ground my guy. It's mostly a boon bot atm.

    And yet the firebrand is still the top tier primary support, is it not?

    Also, 0 nerfs? The competetive split absolutely gutted many traits. Healing modifiers got cut in half. Yes that includes purity of purpose, which saw a 50-75% reduction in boon durations. And yet the scrapper is more common than ever. This alone should tell you it is a global problem. Even deleting it would do nothing, other classes pick up the slack because they are equally as strong or stronger.

    Purity of Purpose is a problem. Even when the boons it creates have only a 1 second base duration, the group mechanic of this trait is too strong.

    Scourge has a similar mechanic, but it works only on the scourge. Image how ridiculous scourge would be if it could share the effect of Feed from Corruption with its group (even at reduced durations).

    Long story short: Purity of Purpose should just work for the engineer itself, but not for the group. The boon durations should increase slightly as a compensation of course.

    And what I said earlier was "what should happen is blanket nerf on AoE boons and boon duration for all classes, all sigils, all runes". Which is again why its silly to focus on purity of purpose and engineer. Yes it includes purity of purpose. They could delete pop for all I care. But need to happen for all classes. The reason meta boonballs are practically immune isnt at all because of purity of purpose, its because AoE boons is pumped into the zerg from other classes like a firehose gone rouge.

    Comparing the scourge too since the meta scourge traits a baby version of pop, where they remove a condition and grant might to allies. Why does that exist? Why does it remove a condition and grant might? Just another example of Anets machinegun design to skills - a skill cant possibly do 1 thing, it has to do 2 or 3 or 4 and preferably be combined with another trait to do 5. This is the core flaw of GW2 combat and has been since they powercreeped HoT to hell.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2021

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @hunkamania.7561 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @hunkamania.7561 said:
    they got 50 million engis in every blob it seems converting any condi into ezpz boons. They nerfed all the dps and didn't touch engi that has

    • ezpz no skill stealth
    • boons for free by just condi clearing
    • best healer by a country mile
    • 80%-90% superspeed uptime

    i'm sure I missed some things but hitting a blob feels like hitting a brick wall these days is all i'm saying...

    Yet the blob that wins is often the one that has 50 million necros so that they can bomb the enemy blob into oblivion in seconds.

    Even if they deleted the scrapper, you would either see:
    A ) More AoE healing, more stab and boons, about as much stealth (couple more mesmers, a portion of scrappers would be replaced by tempests again and others would be firebrands)
    B ) More condi damage (with less cleansing sustain, zergs would go more red carpet of death).

    Yay...?

    What should happen is blanket nerf on AoE boons and boon duration for all classes, all sigils, all runes. Add a blanket nerf to all passive and basic AoE healing as well and instead strengthen combo fields, like how it was in GW2 vanilla.

    But no. It's the eeeeeeevil scrappers fault! Because Purity Of Purpose.

    Lets just also completely ignore the kitten firebrand that dominate zerg support.

    What's necro's have to do with with the facts i stated? you cannot tell me that engi isn't overtuned atm. It got 0 nerfs when it was the top tier secondary support now it's not even close.

    Guardian heals are nerfed to the ground my guy. It's mostly a boon bot atm.

    And yet the firebrand is still the top tier primary support, is it not?

    Also, 0 nerfs? The competetive split absolutely gutted many traits. Healing modifiers got cut in half. Yes that includes purity of purpose, which saw a 50-75% reduction in boon durations. And yet the scrapper is more common than ever. This alone should tell you it is a global problem. Even deleting it would do nothing, other classes pick up the slack because they are equally as strong or stronger.

    Purity of Purpose is a problem. Even when the boons it creates have only a 1 second base duration, the group mechanic of this trait is too strong.

    Scourge has a similar mechanic, but it works only on the scourge. Image how ridiculous scourge would be if it could share the effect of Feed from Corruption with its group (even at reduced durations).

    Long story short: Purity of Purpose should just work for the engineer itself, but not for the group. The boon durations should increase slightly as a compensation of course.

    And what I said earlier was "what should happen is blanket nerf on AoE boons and boon duration for all classes, all sigils, all runes". Which is again why its silly to focus on purity of purpose and engineer. Yes it includes purity of purpose. But need to happen for all classes.

    You realize they did exactly that with the 2020 rebalance initiative, right? There are some buttons hardly worth pushing now and while the rebalance has made sure more stat-combinations see use, some stat-combinations did take quite a dive. Yet, stat-wise still a positive trade (ie. toughness/concentration).

    @God.2708 said:
    Does anyone actually have any arguments about PoP being overtuned/overpowered? Or is 'People get boons if you cure their conditions' all you've really got?

    Overall, the only real issue with PoP is that conversion and corruption overall has become a fair bit too common, making sure the boons and conditions do not leave the cycle as quick as they did back in vanilla. Instead they ping back and forth under new sources of application. I think there are plenty of positives to gain from making both corruption and conversion less common, leaving them as a very rare improved version of simple application, rip and cleanse that can remain more as is.

    On the flipside, I don't think that is the reason people keep complaining about PoP though. I think PoP is frequently brought up because the forums are full of people who think a stale 1200-range control war is going to make them comparatively better to players or groups who are in fact better than them. They just want easy bags clouding or hiding behind others and want to feel rewarded for that type of gameplay. They don't realize that people will adapt and no one will offer to be a meatshield under those conditions. The hate is more on groups being organized than PoP.

  • Ah yes, another one of these posts.

  • Shroud.2307Shroud.2307 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2021

    @God.2708 said:
    Does anyone actually have any arguments about PoP being overtuned/overpowered? Or is 'People get boons if you cure their conditions' all you've really got?

    The only thing I really see being problematic is the fact chill gets converted to alacrity, which allows the scrapper to get an okay uptime of a boon it generally should not get access to. Chill is also not nearly as uncommon as it should be, and something as simple as a tempest support putting out frost aura occasionally allows a squad to gain way more alacrity than it should (which acts as an inadvertent nerf to the tempest too).

    And possibly that immobilize gets converted to resistance, but resistance does not get converted to immobilize (please do not bring that back).

    Keep in mind purity of purpose use to exist on e-gun cleanses only (which is 60% of a scrappers cleanses anyway) long before PoP came about with
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Inversion_Enzyme and scrappers still didn't get used as supports. It started getting looked at in the May 2018 update when MDF got a huge buff, Med kit got reworked, and defense field applied stability. That was 3 months where PoP existed and scrappers were 'meh'. They became staple in start of 2019 with the gyro/superspeed rework (compounded by the anti-toxin rune silliness). So I remain skeptical that PoP is in any way a problem beyond the resistance/alacrity access it gives scrappers (which is a small acceptable change that shouldn't be 'hard' to implement)

    One trait dictating whether or not Condition builds can reasonably contribute to large scale fights seems like it might be a bit strong to me.

    Necro/Engi/Ranger/Rev | Maguuma | Diamond Legend
    [YWY] Weeping Valley | [xo] Fantasies
    My Youtube: Shroud
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  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2021

    @Shroud.2307 said:

    @God.2708 said:
    Does anyone actually have any arguments about PoP being overtuned/overpowered? Or is 'People get boons if you cure their conditions' all you've really got?

    The only thing I really see being problematic is the fact chill gets converted to alacrity, which allows the scrapper to get an okay uptime of a boon it generally should not get access to. Chill is also not nearly as uncommon as it should be, and something as simple as a tempest support putting out frost aura occasionally allows a squad to gain way more alacrity than it should (which acts as an inadvertent nerf to the tempest too).

    And possibly that immobilize gets converted to resistance, but resistance does not get converted to immobilize (please do not bring that back).

    Keep in mind purity of purpose use to exist on e-gun cleanses only (which is 60% of a scrappers cleanses anyway) long before PoP came about with
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Inversion_Enzyme and scrappers still didn't get used as supports. It started getting looked at in the May 2018 update when MDF got a huge buff, Med kit got reworked, and defense field applied stability. That was 3 months where PoP existed and scrappers were 'meh'. They became staple in start of 2019 with the gyro/superspeed rework (compounded by the anti-toxin rune silliness). So I remain skeptical that PoP is in any way a problem beyond the resistance/alacrity access it gives scrappers (which is a small acceptable change that shouldn't be 'hard' to implement)

    One trait dictating whether or not Condition builds can reasonably contribute to large scale fights seems like it might be a bit strong to me.

    The issue with measuring that lies in conditions' own mechanics. They stack from multiple sources so the balance of power relative condi needs to be sampled from groups dedicated into either damage profile. Power still benefits from control conditions so even a very skewered power meta will have an abundance of cleanses. Most people overlook that when they consider conditions ability to scale up to content levels. Conditions also makes alot of other factors pointless outside of the control war. That is sure to make the developers err on the side of caution. If you remember the epi meta for example. If people want that to change they will have to nerf down the condition caps by alot because conditions still has the ability to tick for many times a HP-pool / tick when the caps are hit. Power is simply more common because it is easier to organize, use in unorganized conditions and less prone to be all or nothing.

    Some groups use condis at larger scale than typical 5-10 man roaming/busting comps though and it does have its own interesting tactical factors. It's one of those things in the game that can do alot more things than most people are aware of since it is (has to be) strongly written off by typical pickup authorities.

  • nthmetal.9652nthmetal.9652 Member ✭✭✭

    it's all Rock-Paper-Scissors :) If you have a condi-heavy enemy, you need a lot of condi-conversion. If you have a high-boon-sustain blob, you need lots of strips / corrupt. Obv if you lack numbers neither is gonna work adequately, but otherwise if you have the right composition you can fight the corresponding enemy.

    "and then we know that we have looked back through the ivory gates into that world of wonder which was ours before we were wise and unhappy"
    -- H. P. Lovecraft - Celephais

  • Touchme.1097Touchme.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    It's sad to see WvW reduced to a blob meta, I don't even like to play EB maps for this same reason. I am currently enjoying sPvP better than WvW, that is the right place for people who want to improve their skills. I will reconsider WvW when the devs will do something to deal with the current meta.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Touchme.1097 said:
    It's sad to see WvW reduced to a blob meta, I don't even like to play EB maps for this same reason. I am currently enjoying sPvP better than WvW, that is the right place for people who want to improve their skills. I will reconsider WvW when the devs will do something to deal with the current meta.

    If there are blobs on any of your maps then there is stuff to do. You better come back and clean up the WvW trash with all that improved spvp skill.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2021

    Its the shares that are too strong imo. Proper groups can have a near full share uptime of cleansing,healing,reflect,block,projectile destroy.

  • Mil.3562Mil.3562 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2021

    Oh, another one of those topics created by condi mains (most likely necros) calling for further nerfs to cleanse and heals. Well, less than two years back you guys did it once and ANet agreed that 2% of the player base in the forum represented the other 98% as well and over a few balance patches, handled some very devastating nerfs to anti toxin runes, Scrapper traits and even dropped their vitality by 3k. And nothing has changed over the years with ANet still having that 'all calls for nerfs are most welcomed and will be done ' attitude, you guys will succeed again. Congrats!

    notes to self : Avoid WvW section, there is nothing constructive here but endless calls for nerfs

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2021

    @Mil.3562 said:
    Oh, another one of those topics created by condi mains (most likely necros) calling for further nerfs to cleanse and heals. Well, less than two years back you guys did it once and ANet agreed that 2% of the player base in the forum represented the other 98% as well and over a few balance patches, handled some very devastating nerfs to anti toxin runes, Scrapper traits and even dropped their vitality by 3k. And nothing has changed over the years with ANet still having that 'all calls for nerfs are most welcomed and will be done ' attitude, you guys will succeed again. Congrats!

    notes to self : Avoid WvW section, there is nothing constructive here but endless calls for nerfs

    ? Im zerk power.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2021

    @Mil.3562 said:
    Oh, another one of those topics created by condi mains (most likely necros) calling for further nerfs to cleanse and heals. Well, less than two years back you guys did it once and ANet agreed that 2% of the player base in the forum represented the other 98% as well and over a few balance patches, handled some very devastating nerfs to anti toxin runes, Scrapper traits and even dropped their vitality by 3k. And nothing has changed over the years with ANet still having that 'all calls for nerfs are most welcomed and will be done ' attitude, you guys will succeed again. Congrats!

    notes to self : Avoid WvW section, there is nothing constructive here but endless calls for nerfs

    Yeah we should have been calling for buffs to scrappers instead, purity of purpose and gyro rework that made them one of the top support in zergs wasn't enough... Oh let's not forget the amount of crying over scourge that got them nerfed multiple times cause people are too dumb to avoid red areas.

    These are forums, where people give their feedback, usually about something broken.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • Shroud.2307Shroud.2307 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mil.3562 said:
    Oh, another one of those topics created by condi mains (most likely necros) calling for further nerfs to cleanse and heals. Well, less than two years back you guys did it once and ANet agreed that 2% of the player base in the forum represented the other 98% as well and over a few balance patches, handled some very devastating nerfs to anti toxin runes, Scrapper traits and even dropped their vitality by 3k. And nothing has changed over the years with ANet still having that 'all calls for nerfs are most welcomed and will be done ' attitude, you guys will succeed again. Congrats!

    notes to self : Avoid WvW section, there is nothing constructive here but endless calls for nerfs

    If anyone is still complaining about Conditions in 2021 when a sigil exists that cleanses 3 on a 9 second cooldown they might want to reevaluate their build. Literally one sigil is enough Cleanse to deal with most Condi builds now. And in a zerging formant it is really as simple as knowing how to position yourself- but I know that's easier said than done for an unfortunate percentage of players.

    Necro/Engi/Ranger/Rev | Maguuma | Diamond Legend
    [YWY] Weeping Valley | [xo] Fantasies
    My Youtube: Shroud
    3rd year of being rank 10k! 32nd to reach max.

  • @Shroud.2307 said:

    @Mil.3562 said:
    Oh, another one of those topics created by condi mains (most likely necros) calling for further nerfs to cleanse and heals. Well, less than two years back you guys did it once and ANet agreed that 2% of the player base in the forum represented the other 98% as well and over a few balance patches, handled some very devastating nerfs to anti toxin runes, Scrapper traits and even dropped their vitality by 3k. And nothing has changed over the years with ANet still having that 'all calls for nerfs are most welcomed and will be done ' attitude, you guys will succeed again. Congrats!

    notes to self : Avoid WvW section, there is nothing constructive here but endless calls for nerfs

    If anyone is still complaining about Conditions in 2021 when a sigil exists that cleanses 3 on a 9 second cooldown they might want to reevaluate their build. Literally one sigil is enough Cleanse to deal with most Condi builds now. And in a zerging formant it is really as simple as knowing how to position yourself- but I know that's easier said than done for an unfortunate percentage of players.

    Except for Warriors vs Condi Heralds. Now that's a bit challenging, no matter the amount of condi cleanses.

    Although I must admit, I'm seeing less condi herald/firebrand duos nowadays...

  • Shroud.2307Shroud.2307 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Grand Marshal.4098 said:

    @Shroud.2307 said:

    @Mil.3562 said:
    Oh, another one of those topics created by condi mains (most likely necros) calling for further nerfs to cleanse and heals. Well, less than two years back you guys did it once and ANet agreed that 2% of the player base in the forum represented the other 98% as well and over a few balance patches, handled some very devastating nerfs to anti toxin runes, Scrapper traits and even dropped their vitality by 3k. And nothing has changed over the years with ANet still having that 'all calls for nerfs are most welcomed and will be done ' attitude, you guys will succeed again. Congrats!

    notes to self : Avoid WvW section, there is nothing constructive here but endless calls for nerfs

    If anyone is still complaining about Conditions in 2021 when a sigil exists that cleanses 3 on a 9 second cooldown they might want to reevaluate their build. Literally one sigil is enough Cleanse to deal with most Condi builds now. And in a zerging formant it is really as simple as knowing how to position yourself- but I know that's easier said than done for an unfortunate percentage of players.

    Except for Warriors vs Condi Heralds. Now that's a bit challenging, no matter the amount of condi cleanses.

    Although I must admit, I'm seeing less condi herald/firebrand duos nowadays...

    I'm not going to disagree that it's a tough match when Condi Rev is strongest is melee range, and Warrior is typically full melee, but let's not forget Mending exists which Cleanses 5 Conditions on a 16 second traited cooldown. That's a pretty beefy Condi clearing heal. Couple that with Cleansing sigil and Brawler's Recovery and you've got enough clears to handle the fight even if it's a bit uphill.

    Necro/Engi/Ranger/Rev | Maguuma | Diamond Legend
    [YWY] Weeping Valley | [xo] Fantasies
    My Youtube: Shroud
    3rd year of being rank 10k! 32nd to reach max.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mil.3562 said:
    Oh, another one of those topics created by condi mains (most likely necros) calling for further nerfs to cleanse and heals. Well, less than two years back you guys did it once and ANet agreed that 2% of the player base in the forum represented the other 98% as well and over a few balance patches, handled some very devastating nerfs to anti toxin runes, Scrapper traits and even dropped their vitality by 3k. And nothing has changed over the years with ANet still having that 'all calls for nerfs are most welcomed and will be done ' attitude, you guys will succeed again. Congrats!

    notes to self : Avoid WvW section, there is nothing constructive here but endless calls for nerfs

    Yet scrapper is still meta. The more you know.

  • Sleepwalker.1398Sleepwalker.1398 Member ✭✭✭✭

    T3 keep getting hit.
    Server Hero 1: Imma use siege. (1min later....it's useless)
    Server Hero 2: Imma Meteor Shower on them (Just sees block, block, block, block)
    Server Hero 3: Imma use pull and burst a few (Just sees immune, immune, immune)
    Meanwhile Plat Vet at Spawn transformed as a Choya: You can't fight that with our numbers. Back cap later. Just take supply and don't be a bag. Come to spawn, we play dancing Choya :)

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2021

    i mean, often the siege is placed so bad, that enemy barrage/meteors just delete it. or the user gets cc'd and pulled within seconds. same for all the "heroes" on the walls, who watch the attacking zerg and try to pew pew without having stunbreaks and stability up. makes no sense at all to even try that really.

    pull and burst in 1v30 won't ever work. since the damage nerfs, u just cannot burst stuff down in one second.

    and self sustain + group sustain got heavily nerfed yet, compared to the last years.

    @Voltekka.2375 because scrapper is the best cleanse+healer sorta, esp after tempest nerfs. there won't come anything that outperforms this class at this job (maybe in EoD but not before)... also all the scrapper utilities combined with the sustain are just too good to replace it, just bc some nerfs, that no other class can do equally anyways.

    @XenesisII.1540 still, the point stands; the "balance" been mostly plain nerfs, without a real filter. instead of trying to buff completely unused things (weapons, traits, skills)

    like what do people expect? nerfing firebrand and scrapper to unplayabilty? and then? all will just become a huge pirateship, probably healing rev and tempest would sorta take their place. and people would cry about "rev meta"... and here we go again (i mean, they do complain about rev yet... but eh. remove all classes so everybody is unhappy? idk.)

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2021

    @kamikharzeeh.8016 said:
    @XenesisII.1540 still, the point stands; the "balance" been mostly plain nerfs, without a real filter. instead of trying to buff completely unused things (weapons, traits, skills)

    Let's not forget that for the most part (I say most because scrappers I believe were not that great in the beginning) every single elite spec were overtuned, and added roles that were not intended to be in the game in it's first design, namely pure support specs which added so much more heals and cleanses and boons, and no longer even needed blasting fields to produce them. Plus the inflation of power since the expansion, there's only one way to go, nerfing down, not continuing to buff up. Buff useless stuff by all means (gyros are a good example of this aren't they?), but they need to continue keeping the op stuff in check.

    like what do people expect? nerfing firebrand and scrapper to unplayabilty? and then? all will just become a huge pirateship, probably healing rev and tempest would sorta take their place. and people would cry about "rev meta"... and here we go again (i mean, they do complain about rev yet... but eh. remove all classes so everybody is unhappy? idk.)

    And yet it was ok to over nerf scourge chrono and mirage right? when gyros got buffed and practically kicked every mesmer out of zergs. And shades being reduced to 2 targets is a god kitten joke. Winds repeated nerfed into uselessness, I can barely tell if even one warrior bubble goes up in a fight these days.

    You worry about lack of stability and turning into a pirateship, and yet now we have groups just walking over aoes like they don't exist, there's no fear to walk through a bomb with 12 boons and the infinite cycle of boons to condi back to boons instantly. To counter this you're expected to come up with an army of boon strippers with a coordinated bomb, meanwhile the army of scrappers and fb are sitting there mindlessly hitting a couple buttons to cleanse and heal and refreshing everything.

    There are ways they can deal with the stability issue, they even mentioned it one time they thought about giving more access to stability, if they could do that and reduce the boon spam in general it would be a better step in the balance direction. But hey, wvw is the last thing they ever thing about in this game, certainly not going to care about balance when they have new specs coming to break the game again.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • Shroud.2307Shroud.2307 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2021

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Let's not forget that for the most part (I say most because scrappers I believe were not that great in the beginning) every single elite spec were overtuned

    Oh no, Scrapper was overtuned in the beginning as well. Although it wasn't wanted in zergs, it was one of the best 1v1/small scale specs at the time. Release Scrapper was astoundingly broken. Like I would genuinely rank it top 3 most broken OP on release specs.
    That said, again, it wasn't so in zergs. In PvP and WvW roaming though, Scrapper was big L U L.

    and added roles that were not intended to be in the game in it's first design, namely pure support specs which added so much more heals and cleanses and boons, and no longer even needed blasting fields to produce them. Plus the inflation of power since the expansion, there's only one way to go, nerfing down, not continuing to buff up. Buff useless stuff by all means (gyros are a good example of this aren't they?), but they need to continue keeping the op stuff in check.

    Agreed, and this goes back to my original comment about "Game is too far powercrept to fix it now". There are roles that should never have existed by GW2's balance philosophy, and literally everything is overloaded with Boons, Conditions, and general effects. It would take such a colossal balance patch to bring everything down to a more reasonable state that ANet would be better off releasing a Guild Wars 2 Classic with no elite specs.

    I don't think a lot of people are fully comprehending how much stronger and easier everything is now.

    And yet it was ok to over nerf scourge chrono and mirage right? when gyros got buffed and practically kicked every mesmer out of zergs. And shades being reduced to 2 targets is a god kitten joke. Winds repeated nerfed into uselessness, I can barely tell if even one warrior bubble goes up in a fight these days.

    You worry about lack of stability and turning into a pirateship, and yet now we have groups just walking over aoes like they don't exist, there's no fear to walk through a bomb with 12 boons and the infinite cycle of boons to condi back to boons instantly. To counter this you're expected to come up with an army of boon strippers with a coordinated bomb, meanwhile the army of scrappers and fb are sitting there mindlessly hitting a couple buttons to cleanse and heal and refreshing everything.

    There are ways they can deal with the stability issue, they even mentioned it one time they thought about giving more access to stability, if they could do that and reduce the boon spam in general it would be a better step in the balance direction. But hey, wvw is the last thing they ever thing about in this game, certainly not going to care about balance when they have new specs coming to break the game again.

    Scourge and Spellbreaker are still used, but now it's more out of necessity than because they're strong. There is just SO MUCH Boon spam that if you don't bring these things you really have no chance of wiping anything. These two specs will always have a place until something else comes along that does what they do better, be it a new elite spec, or a reworked skill/trait/utility, etc. Boon hate is just mandatory now and there isn't any other way about it.

    I'm sure some might argue, "well it's this way because there are so many AOE's and Conditions!", and they're sort of right. It's a feedback loop where ANet tries to resolve one thing with another and it just keeps getting worse. Unfortunately, they stopped at support being the solution to AOE's/Conditions without continuing the cycle. Why not let everyone have an immortal sustain blob so they can smack each other with pool noodles and everyone's happy.

    At times it truly can be difficult to avoid a coordinated (or even uncoordinated) bomb, especially for inexperienced players. Generally however, all it takes is familiarity and it becomes relatively easy to position yourself and read groups such that death is minimal. If ANet brings support down JUST A LITTLE we'd be in a better spot. Not so much that the feedback loop starts all over again, but just touch on a couple outliers to bring things more in line, and we can start having actual fights again.

    Necro/Engi/Ranger/Rev | Maguuma | Diamond Legend
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  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shroud.2307 said:
    Oh no, Scrapper was overtuned in the beginning as well. Although it wasn't wanted in zergs, it was one of the best 1v1/small scale specs at the time. Release Scrapper was astoundingly broken. Like I would genuinely rank it top 3 most broken OP on release specs.
    That said, again, it wasn't so in zergs. In PvP and WvW roaming though, Scrapper was big L U L.

    Yeah I didn't pay much attention to them, was mostly on my reaper, but I coulda swore people said they were one of the weaker zerg specs. :)

    Agreed, and this goes back to my original comment about "Game is too far powercrept to fix it now". There are roles that should never have existed by GW2's balance philosophy, and literally everything is overloaded with Boons, Conditions, and general effects. It would take such a colossal balance patch to bring everything down to a more reasonable state that ANet would be better off releasing a Guild Wars 2 Classic with no elite specs.

    I don't think a lot of people are fully comprehending how much stronger and easier everything is now.

    Agreed, they did do a good step in trying to bring damage down across the board last year, but not really much of a follow up unfortunately.

    Scourge and Spellbreaker are still used, but now it's more out of necessity than because they're strong. There is just SO MUCH Boon spam that if you don't bring these things you really have no chance of wiping anything. These two specs will always have a place until something else comes along that does what they do better, be it a new elite spec, or a reworked skill/trait/utility, etc. Boon hate is just mandatory now and there isn't any other way about it.

    I'm sure some might argue, "well it's this way because there are so many AOE's and Conditions!", and they're sort of right. It's a feedback loop where ANet tries to resolve one thing with another and it just keeps getting worse. Unfortunately, they stopped at support being the solution to AOE's/Conditions without continuing the cycle. Why not let everyone have an immortal sustain blob so they can smack each other with pool noodles and everyone's happy.

    At times it truly can be difficult to avoid a coordinated (or even uncoordinated) bomb, especially for inexperienced players. Generally however, all it takes is familiarity and it becomes relatively easy to position yourself and read groups such that death is minimal. If ANet brings support down JUST A LITTLE we'd be in a better spot. Not so much that the feedback loop starts all over again, but just touch on a couple outliers to bring things more in line, and we can start having actual fights again.

    I honestly don't notice as many scourge or spellbreakers around, sometimes the odd guild group is running a bunch of warriors, but generally their usage is way down. But yes they will always be needed because they're the main boon destroyers still, and that is highly needed, (you can kinda sub mesmers in there but they're not as good), but I still think the nerfs to those two classes went too far, I agree they needed nerfing for sure from their original implementations, but not to that extent.

    The infinite boon cycle is just too much and I'm more of a fan of active than passive applications, which something like purity of purpose is the biggest offender of. Just another example of anet trying to put in a step to fix a previous step. Add a bunch of boons, add of bunch of corruption, oh no too much corruption, add recycle boons, now lower corruption, adjust recycling boons? oh sorry we're working on next expansion! kitten...

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • Helicity.3416Helicity.3416 Member ✭✭✭

    Just pull & bomb.
    Sustain loses to alpha strike damage.
    EVE players have known this for ages.

    (But yeah nerf sustain, cause it's preeeetty dumb atm)

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭✭

    mimimi my cookie cuter build cannot oneshot things out of nowhere anymore....

    roamerclasses are far harder to kill now tho. i agree there with just reverting all the bad dmg removings, make the game so everything can kill stuff. no more free roamers' land. let them eat the full dmg.

    nerfing sustain would just really harm Wvw in the end.

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2021

    Do you know what the counter to blob sustain was? Mount stomps!

    But nooooooo, a portion of the players didn't want that anymore, so it had to go.

    ... just the facts.

    I suggest a petition to bring it back! /signed - let's go!

    This post contains my opinion.

  • alcopaul.2156alcopaul.2156 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2021

    and they nerfed WoD of Spellbreakers.

    and this lelz Zerg Ball that has all the uptime health like from 60% to 100% for what, less than 1 second, and roll in a line and press skills in sync to DDOS you and the only thing that can save you is if you SIDESTEP their Zerg Ball and set your grafix to Best Performance, still exists.

    Your Math Tèacher [MATH]
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