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Redefining the new game experience

Currently the game is what could be described as an ideal spotlight. With the garnered attention from the expansion, and recent coverage by large MMORPG reviewers with positive views on the game, and the success of Living Season 4. Moreover, Path of Fire and the introduction of mounts truly reshaped the game experience hands-down and was the kind of bold move the game sorely needed however, Ice-brood Saga is generally said to have failed to deliver but this can be said to not have put off a lot of people.

Now understandably, ANET must be more than likely bogged down with working on the expansion but I urge that they do not neglect the foundations of the game as I believe they can and should be reworked for a drastic change that will bring about a higher player retention and a greater transition into End-game content. Below is an image simplifying the player experience:

The critical issues that need to be resolved to see are:
1. The breakdown of stats.
2. Bridge between interacting with other players.

Before covering the solutions, the most important takeaway is that What would increase both player retention and engagement- learning alongside/from your game friends or navigating away to Youtube/Wiki and browsing for an answer?

1. The breakdown of stats
Guild Wars 2's hands-off approach to telling the player where to go and what to do is one of it's greatest aspects however this hands-off nature is seen in the stats where many a new players and returning alike will find themselves absolutely lost. As it stands, a skill is unlocked with no explanation to what makes this useful. Currently, many players will just resort to googling for the meta build instead of intuitively being able to understand what works and what doesn't. This shows the absence of the games attention to player game mechanical development.

The solution
Across all races, the new player at level 1-15 will find themselves in an area where they can practise shooting, blocking, and rolling, which should be reworked to profession areas instead at level 3-5, they should be navigated to an area in the level 1-15 map, having just one or two towns with an instance based training grounds that is home to 9 instructors for each profession would not just benefit new players but end-game content alike. Breaking this down further:

  1. Only the instructor with the same profession is available to interact with on that character.
  2. The instructor can showcase what happens when you have a higher DPS and what skills are more relevant, and what skills in your profession are more about condition damage, and support for example.
    2b. This does not mean that the instructor shows the current meta builds or optimal skills. Just a generic basic skill 2 does little condition damage when I am focused on high Power and Precision but does higher damage when I change my gear.
  3. There is a mini golem/dummy to practise skills.
  4. Spar against the instructor who performs combos and blast fields correctly against you.
  5. Changing the stats of a full set of armour to experiment AND understand what DPS represents in the game, Condition Damage, and more.

    There is no better way of learning the difference between stats and builds then seeing it demonstrated and actually practising yourself. This also allows the player to understand the kind of player they want to be as they get to endgame content, and understanding what is viable instead of forcibly having to drop whatever weapons and build they liked to copy paste someone else's template.

2. Bridge between interacting with other players.
The strongest aspect of Guild Wars 2 is the community but players can easily fall into the rift of playing the game alone due to how abrupt the introduction to finding a guild or finding a group is furthermore, just finding a group doesn't automatically mean you've found yourself a group of social players that are willing to have a fun time. To fix this, the guild panel needs to be improved.
The solution
We are aware that guild can be split up into 3 primary categories. PvP, PvE, WvW.
1. Introduce a tab for guild search OR a location in town where there's a building that you can speak to an NPC or on a board that lets you search for a guild.
2. Provide the option for a guild to be public or private to show up in a guild search bar in the guild panel.
3. Introduce 4 filters:
-> PvP, PvE, WvW focused.
-> None of the above, and just a general guild.
-> EU/US
-> Home server (Gunnar's Hold, Underworld etc)
-> Recent shouts (Guilds are allowed twice a day to say they're active thus avoiding the issue of contacting offline guilds)
4. Upon clicking on a guild, it lets you read what they're about to and officer names that can be whispered for recruitment or further information.

Guilds are the best feature of the game, and should be given more of a helpful walkthrough to both understand what a guild represents and finding the people for you.

Thank you for reading. Any criticism is encouraged!

A quick tidbit to myself, I have been playing GW2 on and off for around 7-8 years since I was a wee young kid and have a lot of love for the game. I've experienced the hardcore PvP/PvE, Fashion Wars and the chiller elements of the game and just see GW2 as a game with much more potential than realised.

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Comments

  • There's already a tab for Guild Recruitment; what/where do you suggest there be another?
    I'm not sure a <L15 player will be cognizant of the overall game to absorb stats and their implications.
    Although, the L2 Level-up tutorial introduces stats. Those that don't take the time to peruse Level-up tutorial information may not choose to enter tutorial instances, either.

    Also, keep in mind not all skills are unlocked at L15 and under.

  • You have some interesting ideas here, when I was reading through it though it reminds me a lot of the PvP lobby. It would probably be simpler to just direct them there to practice against the training golems and the various professions.

    I would suggest maybe having this at level 70 or even 80. A more through explanation of what the stats are would be nice and what they are used for. The biggest issue is that this game tries to stay away from the holy trinity so there is no straight way to tell someone how to make a build since there are hundreds of thousands of options for builds.

    Unfortunately ANet I don’t believe will put more effort into making the new player experience different. The best thing for any new player is to have a guild or friends to help them along and to play the game. It might take a bit but we all learn what to use in different situations.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i like of the idea of a acessible "training area",

    but i guess u is overthinking it... some players avoid hard content for years(myself i dont touch raids), or even status stuff, i dive into status because of playstyle. i was bored of single target warrior and dived into some condition specs. i tried it first time because of HoT elite spec weapons, them i wanted the reaper GS to my warrior.

    Im Neverwinter we had on their L.A. equivalent a training area with dummies, just this, that was alway populated and was very useful.

    I gw2 the "training areas" are too bureacratic to acess like the mists golem or raids, or pvp dummies, and the dialogues are horrible UI. A true training area doenst need dialogues..

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    There's already a tab for Guild Recruitment; what/where do you suggest there be another?

    Ah I have worded it incorrectly.

    In the guild panel itself to have a new tab that allows for a search function.

    I'm not sure a <L15 player will be cognizant of the overall game to absorb stats and their implications.

    Fair point! The aim is to just develop a simple understanding towards how at least DPS is affected by a higher power or condi damage. The strong case for this is if the instructor were to perform the same skill with different builds to show how just power affects damage, it would easily show where each stat stands.

    More importantly, this would be a process from Lvl 5-20 (where ever is most suitable to begin) to lvl 80 which would be easily enough time to grasp the core mechanics of builds.

    Also, keep in mind not all skills are unlocked at L15 and under.

    Indeed, the benefit here is that ahead of time the player can see the instructor perform skills of different weapons which allows the player to have the opportunity to evaluate the playstyle they want during lvl 5-80. In the current state of the game, new players for the most part drop one weapon for a better but different one through the levelling process. This is purely based off anecdotal experience from interviewing other players however most new players rarely browse the TP to buy a better but same weapon to play with throughout the game.

  • @ElijahFitzroy.5762 said:
    You have some interesting ideas here, when I was reading through it though it reminds me a lot of the PvP lobby. It would probably be simpler to just direct them there to practice against the training golems and the various professions.

    That too is a great idea! In fact that would help integrate an introduction to PvP at an earlier level rather than at lvl 80!

    I would suggest maybe having this at level 70 or even 80. A more through explanation of what the stats are would be nice and what they are used for. The biggest issue is that this game tries to stay away from the holy trinity so there is no straight way to tell someone how to make a build since there are hundreds of thousands of options for builds.

    Yep, as stated, this would benefit new and later players alike but a demonstration would be superior to an explanation in my opinion. The issue of avoiding the holy trinity is solved with the freedom of being able to experiment with builds in the "training room".

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ailuro.2780 said:
    1. Introduce a tab for guild search OR a location in town where there's a building that you can speak to an NPC or on a board that lets you search for a guild.
    2. Provide the option for a guild to be public or private to show up in a guild search bar in the guild panel.

    this is something i kind-of want as well. in-game, we already have a Contacts & LFG > Guild Recruitment > Guild Plaza section for guild recruitment and looking-for-guild people. --- but being able to set your guild's profile as "public" and have it show up on a "guild board" in every major town/city ingame would be a nice QoL. not everyday or every time you play you'd have a recruiter shouting in /map and not every time you'll have a guild recruitment party/ad in LFG, also not everyone checks the forums and not everyone is part of the GW2 discord and the reddit subs so having more ingame ways to search for a guild and apply for one even if the recruiters/officers are currently offline would be nice.

    as for the search function, i'd rather not have the it in the guild tab itself though. i'd rather have it all on a "guild board" that way it's sort of it's own thing and the devs wouldn't have to touch the guild interface/ui lest something may break or bug out lol

  • @Astyrah.4015 said:

    not everyday or every time you play you'd have a recruiter shouting in /map and not every time you'll have a guild recruitment party/ad in LFG, also not everyone checks the forums and not everyone is part of the GW2 discord and the reddit subs so having more ingame ways to search for a guild and apply for one even if the recruiters/officers are currently offline would be nice.

    Definitely! Things that are integrated in the game keeps player in the game.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2021

    @Ailuro.2780 said:
    As it stands, a skill is unlocked with no explanation to what makes this useful.

    What do you mean "no explanation to what makes this useful"? There are skill/trait descriptions and tooltips with effects listed and dmg values shown which you can compare between the skills. And while I don't mind "just having more training golem equivalent options" in pve that aren't as secluded, lets not pretend that there's nothing to try the skills on (even if for some reason you don't consider mobs being something to experiment on) -at the very least there are training areas in aerodrome/pvp.

    The instructor can showcase what happens when you have a higher DPS

    This is another thing I don't really understand the problem with. What do you mean "what happens when you have higher dps"? Isn't this pretty self-explanatory? What is there to explain/showcase? I get it, people don't need to be thrown into the deep water right away (and for the most part, they're not?), but lets not pretend that people need to have it spelled out for them to understand "what happens when you deal more dmg" lol.

  • @Sobx.1758 said:
    What do you mean "no explanation to what makes this useful"? **There are skill/trait descriptions ** and tooltips with effects listed and dmg values shown which you can compare between the skills.

    This is what the casual player sees when they level up:

    It is quite frankly just a word vomit. There is no lesson learned from either consequences or benefiting of a particular stat, and more than not this will be forgotten in the next half n hour much less 30 levels in and people are jumping from weapon to weapon. There is clearly no opportunity to actually understand the gravity of how much power I have actually effects my damage output. There is no integration from this to this:
    Hero_panel_equipment.jpg Hero_panel_weapon_skills.jpg

    Which is even more of a visual screen mess. You don't need to ask hundreds of players to realize after helping run dungeons, much less t1-t2 fractals, to realize that players have no idea what having a build actually means nor the significance of their profession and what stats are most viable. Even after on and off years, this remains an absolute pattern amongst new players. This is just a core missed opportunity by ANET to drive player engagement and give the combat system a greater depth by providing players the actual hands-on training with varying stats.

    There's nothing to try the skills on (even if for some reason you don't consider mobs being something to experiment on) -at the very least there are training areas in aerodrome/pvp.

    This is exactly the issue. I wrote the post in the perspective for a new player/returning player. Unless told, no player has 0 idea golems exist. There is literally no mention of it anywhere during the levelling process that you can go to PvP and try new skills, this is not even beginning to mention how the PvP build panel wouldn't be overwhelming. Moreover, it just wouldn't be thematical for a player to train what would be intended for PvE in a PvP lobby.

    This is another thing I don't really understand the problem with. What do you mean "what happens when you have higher dps"? Isn't this pretty self-explanatory?

    Everybody understands the sentence "more strength, more damage". But what does that exactly mean to World Bosses? Dungeons? Environmental mechanics? Fractals? To your build where in many rotations, there's no need for certain professions to be high DPS? There is no baseline for a player to comparatively weigh the effects of changing builds through their levelling process provided by the game.

    and for the most part, they're not?

    Players can go do their entire personal story, living season, and t1 fractals and dungeons without ever having to realize the importance of a build. Like I said already, there is a hands off approach to stats so yes they're not but this presents the issue of leaving TOO much information with no indicator to where to start.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ailuro.2780 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    What do you mean "no explanation to what makes this useful"? **There are skill/trait descriptions ** and tooltips with effects listed and dmg values shown which you can compare between the skills.

    This is what the casual player sees when they level up:

    It is quite frankly just a word vomit. There is no lesson learned from either consequences or benefiting of a particular stat, and more than not this will be forgotten in the next half n hour much less 30 levels in and people are jumping from weapon to weapon. There is clearly no opportunity to actually understand the gravity of how much power I have actually effects my damage output.

    How is this a word vomit? It explains what basic stats do, so they can make their early gear choices (with 1 modifier per item) and familiarize themselves with how the game works. I don't think the naming here is confusing enough for them to instantly forget what -for example- "power" does. But in case they do, at the very same tip you've linked to, they can see information about hero panel and after they open it (like the game guides them to do in order to equip the weapon they've just received), they'll moooost probably notice the stats. From what I know hovering over the stats isn't exactly rocket science for most players ("oh look, some numbers and icons, I wonder what it is") and when they do that, they'll see that there are short descriptions for each of them in case they need them clarified again. I really don't see the problem here.

    There is no integration from this to this:
    Hero_panel_equipment.jpg Hero_panel_weapon_skills.jpg

    There's no integration from this to this, because what you've linked here has nothing to do with level 2 tooltip you've posted here. Traits are locked till like level... 11? And pretty sure by then there's another pop-up tip informing the player about them. They also won't have many (any?) weapons to swap between at this point and the skills... I think they'll have 1 or 2 weapon skill and a heal. At this point they're literally learning one skill per level, they don't need to study skills en-masse and think about picking the best.

    Which is even more of a visual screen mess. You don't need to ask hundreds of players to realize after helping run dungeons, much less t1-t2 fractals, to realize that players have no idea what having a build actually means nor the significance of their profession and what stats are most viable. Even after on and off years, this remains an absolute pattern amongst new players. This is just a core missed opportunity by ANET to drive player engagement and give the combat system a greater depth by providing players the actual hands-on training with varying stats.

    "players have no idea what having a build actually means"? I think they do. "Having a bad build" isn't an equivalent of "having no idea what a build means". They're free to make their bad choices because that's just the learning process. They can also skip it by googling meta/fotm/top builds for their class, but suggesting that anet should guide them ingame into those meta build is just baseless and wrong. Anyone wanting to take the shortcut through the learning process can already easly do it. For anyone else learning by failing is perfectly fine. Just because you want players to somehow instantly swap to meta builds for your parties means nothing.

    And I don't understand what "missed opportunity" are you talking about here? Can you spell it out for me in simplier terms? Are you seriously talking about cutting the learning process of the players along with taking away the possibility for them to play around with their skills/traits/weapons to craft their OWN build at their OWN pace as a "missed opportunity", or did I horribly misunderstand something here?

    There's nothing to try the skills on (even if for some reason you don't consider mobs being something to experiment on) -at the very least there are training areas in aerodrome/pvp.

    This is exactly the issue. I wrote the post in the perspective for a new player/returning player. Unless told, no player has 0 idea golems exist. There is literally no mention of it anywhere during the levelling process that you can go to PvP and try new skills, this is not even beginning to mention how the PvP build panel wouldn't be overwhelming. Moreover, it just wouldn't be thematical for a player to train what would be intended for PvE in a PvP lobby.

    Let me clarify that the actual quote of what I wrote is this:
    "lets not pretend that there's nothing to try the skills on (even if for some reason you don't consider mobs being something to experiment on) -at the very least there are training areas in aerodrome/pvp."

    ...but the players are notified about existance of pvp right at the level 3? If they go there and look around, they'll see the golems rather fast from what I can tell. If they decide not to go there (which is perfectly fine and a valid thing for the player to do), I don't see why they wouldn't be able to try out their newly acquired skills on early level mobs, which are made pretty weak for the purpose of allowing the new players learning the game. It's also not like they need to test some kind of rotations, at this point the players are unlcoking "a skill per level" to learn the basics step by step.

    But sure, as I said -easier accessible pve golems? I don't see why not, they could put them somewhere on the peripherals (or near the entrance) of every major city, w/e.

    This is another thing I don't really understand the problem with. What do you mean "what happens when you have higher dps"? Isn't this pretty self-explanatory?

    Everybody understands the sentence "more strength, more damage". But what does that exactly mean to World Bosses? Dungeons? Environmental mechanics? Fractals? To your build where in many rotations, there's no need for certain professions to be high DPS? There is no baseline for a player to comparatively weigh the effects of changing builds through their levelling process provided by the game.

    For world bosses, dungeons, fractals and so on it means exactly the same. More dmg, the mob dies faster. What else could it mean? :D
    I still don't see what would need to be explained here. If someone doesn't care about getting a coherent build or high dps, then it's "on them". Except at this point it's their choice and I don't really care what they do. They are free to play what and how they want.

    and for the most part, they're not?

    Players can go do their entire personal story, living season, and t1 fractals and dungeons without ever having to realize the importance of a build. Like I said already, there is a hands off approach to stats so yes they're not but this presents the issue of leaving TOO much information with no indicator to where to start.

    I'm still not sure I understand what you mean by "hands off approach to stats". Stats are explained. It's clear that you can't get everything at the same time. It's clear that one stat does x and the other does y. It's clear the player make choices with their stats, skills, traits and weapons. It's clear that some builds can be more optimal than the others. All of that is still part of learning experience and the individual player choice. Just because you think the player doesn't understand the build system because they don't use optimal(-ish) meta build doesn't mean the players don't understand what the build system is and what "having a build" means.
    By the way, literally randomly clicking on the traits while buying gear with ranomized stats is still equivalent to having a build. It might be a bad build, but if someone doesn't feel like making a choice (or made a choice to play through the game through mostly relying on luck) then what you or I want from them is simply irrelevant. And again, it doesn't mean they don't understand what build is, I don't know how you came up with that theory.

  • @Sobx.1758 said:

    Your initial argument is more or less waving off the casual players' game sense, and making a ton of assumptions that this is what people should do. Which is exactly the last thing you want to design a system as important as stats as.

    I said "players have no idea what having a build actually mean". This is quite literally the equivalent of not knowing what goes into a build. I don't really know what to say here other than why do you expect it is a sensible idea that players who dont know about traits and things as a result of the gameplay is their own fault?

    They can also skip it by googling meta/fotm/top builds for their class,

    I've already explained this as a question, if you believe that it is more engaging and player retentive to go away from the game to find answers instead of practising and learning in the game then there's nothing to say there.

    It's clear that you can't get everything at the same time.

    Yes. That's the point. Rather than getting it away from the game, you get it during the process of practise and exposure in the game to lvl 80.

    Ultimately, the bias of an experienced player who also clearly isn't a casual MMORPG player is seen here rather than the new casual player where it's a "oh it's just there", just "google it, look at the wiki". With any reason of sensibility, no casual player would find it fun to actually go minimize the game to look at youtube tutorials and read the wiki than learning it with friends IN the game. Which is the main point.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2021

    @Ailuro.2780 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    Your initial argument is more or less waving off the casual players' game sense, and making a ton of assumptions that this is what people should do. Which is exactly the last thing you want to design a system as important as stats as.

    Which initial argument? And how exactly am I "waving off the casual player' game sense" -what do you even mean by that? Can you finally be more specific than just repeating some broad phrases (exactly like the one above) and pretty much avoid responding to what I wrote?
    All the while telling me I'm "making a ton of assumptions" when -from what I see- this is what you're doing since the very start of this thread, including the post I'm answering to right now. The players in rpgs have access to hero panels, this is the norm. Here, they're being guided to/through them level after level, page after page to avoid dumping all the info at them in case they'll get overwhelmed by them. What "ton of assumptions" did I even make here? If the player doesn't want to read those SHORT tips then there's not much you can do about it and it means nothing about the system being good or bad.

    I said "players have no idea what having a build actually mean". This is quite literally the equivalent of not knowing what goes into a build. I don't really know what to say here other than why do you expect it is a sensible idea that players who dont know about traits and things as a result of the gameplay is their own fault?

    I know that's what you said, this is also what I've quoted, right?
    Players that level up their character and read the tips know "what goes into their build" and "know about traits and things", because the game tells them about those things while they're leveling up. Why are you trying to pretend otherwise? When was the last time you've leveled up a character and actually read the tips that are popping up on your screen? I seriously don't know what you're talking about right now.

    They can also skip it by googling meta/fotm/top builds for their class,

    I've already explained this as a question, if you believe that it is more engaging and player retentive to go away from the game to find answers instead of practising and learning in the game then there's nothing to say there.

    This was not the whole point I was making, so stop pretending it was while disregarding everything else I wrote, thanks. Also if you don't remember the context it was written in, then feel free to re-read the post including the quote I was responding to.
    I literally wrote that they can do it **if they want to skip the learning process*, so not sure why you're trying to pretend "I think they should go away from the game to find answers instead of practising and learning in the game" LOL. Seriously, re-read again what you're answering to instead of fishing for a fraction of my response and pretending nothing before and after that exists. I'm not sure if you're doing it on purpose, so... yeah, definitely re-read what exactly I wrote in that section, because it is NOT what you're suggesting.

    It's clear that you can't get everything at the same time.

    Yes. That's the point. Rather than getting it away from the game, you get it during the process of practise and exposure in the game to lvl 80.

    I don't know what you're responding to. I was writing about the stats, re-read the quote I was reponding to at that moment and then read that sentence in context of the whole paragraph -it might be just me, but currently I don't understand the relevance of what you've just wrote here as an answer to what you've quoted.

    Ultimately, the bias of an experienced player who also clearly isn't a casual MMORPG player is seen here rather than the new casual player where it's a "oh it's just there", just "google it, look at the wiki". With any reason of sensibility, no casual player would find it fun to actually go minimize the game to look at youtube tutorials and read the wiki than learning it with friends IN the game. Which is the main point.

    No, it's not, so much for not making assumptions. How about you try responding to what I actually write instead of running away from it and doing... this? You've very clearly dodged vast majority of what I wrote and the parts you've responded to were taken HEAVILY out of context to pretend I wrote something else than I did. I don't know what you're trying to achieve with that.

    I didn't say "it's just there" -I wrote "the game shows you where it is".
    I didn't write "just google/wiki it" -reread the whole paragraph and stop pretending I meant something I clearly didn't.

  • Noah Salazar.5430Noah Salazar.5430 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2021

    well for me most dificult was to interact with players, as word maps from 1-80lv was too ez, so no one wanted group up or interacted with me (until i forced it)
    ther was meta events, but like 50ppl groups are not much what you can tall interaction

    most fun i had on hot maps, as thay forced players to group up and explore togheter, you culd make new friends ther or even get invited to guild by players you explored maps togheter

    i miss it after i finished hot, as in pof mobs became ez once again, and too less mobs wants kill you in order to play togheter
    but also it changed once you gathered smaller groups to kill bountys , it was kinda fun as you culd do it with 2-5ppl and kill boss togheter
    but still i missed hot maps tho
    i don't know how about iceborn saga yet, as i not started it yet

  • @Sobx.1758 said:

    This is now just becoming circular, and unproductive. You have repeated yourself multiple times insinuating I'm claiming something that I'm not, all the whilst quoting me but the explanation is in said quote or right after.

    Here are some repeated points:
    1. I've never said they don't have access or don't want to read the info either from the hero panel or not.
    2. I said the textile formatting could be improved via an NPC that walks you through things, never that the naming is confusing but just forgettable.
    3. This is something of a just "no ur wrong" argument, I've said that new players and returning alike meaning those who are already aware of the main stats like power, condi, boon, are still confused to what makes a build viable much less traits come end-game.
    4. You literally said people can just go google it, nothing about in-game availability... because it doesn't exist.

    they can also skip it by googling meta/fotm/top builds for their class,
    the learning process.

    There is no learning process to finding the viable build, especially in end-game. The only learning process is either:
    a) someone tells you what to play
    b) someone tells you to wiki x build.
    c) you get denied higher fracs, denied raids, denied strikes because you don't know it since nothing in the game told you how to set up for it.

    I'll leave it at this because as I said, I find this highly unproductive.
    Say what you will that I'm pretending something, and that I'm the one not reading yours but you are which works great in your favour.

  • @Noah Salazar.5430 said:
    well for me most dificult was to interact with players, as word maps from 1-80lv was too ez, so no one wanted group up or interacted with me (until i forced it)

    Yep, it is easy to fall into that rift of never really finding players much less having the option of choosing the kind of guild you want to be in.

  • vicky.9751vicky.9751 Member ✭✭
    edited February 23, 2021

    The guild panel could be updated, without having to look in lfg or map chats.
    But as far as builds go, it really depends on the kind of player playing the game.
    You will have people like me who go the extra mile to look at metabattle.com and get ascended for fractals, and then you will have players like my BF who just dinks around in the game. I think it's more of an issue of who cares enough to look into builds.

  • @vicky.9751 said:
    But as far as builds go, it really depends on the kind of player playing the game.

    I understand but I definitely think that the game could do a better job of demonstrating stats at play in a training mode element. In fact, even today I was helping new players with fractals and dungeons, and they were level 76-80 who had no idea what makes a build useful for their profession. I think my main gripe is with how there is a lack of display on how important weapon skills are and affects what kind of build you should run.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2021

    The original complaint is weird.

    GW2 isn't perfect, but I'm starting to think OP thinks there shouldn't be SOME level of effort on the player to learn how the game works. I learned everything I needed from GW2 Wiki. While I think that information ingame can be sparse in some places, with just a LITTLE effort from the player, they can learn what they need via other sources of information. I have YET to be unable to figure out what I want to know from either the Wiki or Youtube.

    Also, I think it's worth noting that there is ALSO a problem of being forced by a game to digest more information than is necessary which tends to garner complaints about having more 'reading' than 'playing' the game. Frankly, I think GW2 has a good balance ... you PLAY in the game, you LEARN technical details of the game outside of it.

    @Oxstar.7643 said:
    I did the base story on one of my alts some time ago. During a cutscene where Zojja was supposed to say Durman Priory she said Vigil instead. I don't think ANet cares about the base game anymore.

    You think that sort of miniscule discrepancy in some storyline dialogue is proof Anet doesn't care about the base game? That's absurd considering all the changes they continue to make to improve the base game.

    I think at this point, while it's not perfect, refining the new player experience ship has SAILED, found the edge of the world and fallen off. It's simply not a good use of how Anet staff use their time, considering players have established numerous sources of information outside the game for the benefit of the players. Any reason for Anet to elaborate or duplicate that is HIGHLY questionable use of their resources.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Oxstar.7643Oxstar.7643 Member ✭✭✭

    I think it's proof they haven't gone over the base game in detail for a very long time.

  • Shadowmoon.7986Shadowmoon.7986 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think the new game experience update was one of the worst updates in the games history. Personally I wish they would revert to the classic leveling system and personal story sequence. The level up rewards just fills your inventory with equipment that can not be sold or forged. The personal story was butchered. You know it was kitten because anet added the tutorial achievements last year to try to teach the players the basics of the game. If you ever watched egoraptors megaman x tutorial breakdown, you noticed that the new game experience is just a bunch of popups that fills your inventory with junk, that people click through and learn nothing. The classic leveling lead to organic learning.

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    there shouldn't be SOME level of effort on the player to learn how the game works.

    The point is the player learn how the game works IN the game, with both a better integration to find guildmates and just friends
    AND
    A better training system.

    What is more engaging to learning fractals for example? Playing fractals, and practising with group friends OR looking up a wiki? It's dry. It's bland. It's boring.
    The focus here isn't for players who don't want to put in effort, it's for players who are trying to find answers IN THE game.

    More importantly, please do understand that the Instructor idea serves as a place to experiment and practise _over the course of the levelling journey.__
    That's quite literally asking for the need to put in effort and practise but IN the game, learning mechanics in a clearly designated training area PREPARING new players for end-game content.

  • Eloc Freidon.5692Eloc Freidon.5692 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The level up tooltips are not only overload and don't give you specific information about what each stat is supposed to do and exactly how much it improves you, they happen during combat most of the time and you don't want one-time tooltips showing up in the middle of combat!

    So far, Icebrood Saga weapon collections cost 3845 Gold to craft!
    *Does not include Volcanic Stormcaller set, Runic Armor, or Icebrood Infusion.

  • Oxstar.7643Oxstar.7643 Member ✭✭✭

    I've found enough small errors in the base game to make me pretty convinced that they don't care enough to put the effort into redefining it.
    Also, the starter maps are easy enough to learn from, to the point where I doubt we need an instanced training area.

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oxstar.7643 said:
    I doubt we need an instanced training area.

    one thing i wish they'd add to the starter zones, though not really an instanced area is a "CC-this-thing corner" with a chest on it kinda like the "dodge-the-spikes corner" with a chest on it. it wont be part of map completion, it would be super optional but it's a very small mini tutorial that could entice players to do it as soon as they can or come back for it later because it's a chest they haven't opened before. a tool tip popup would appear just like the one on the dodge-the-spikes informing the player for the first time how to get to the chest.

    it can be as simple as a stone pedestal (breakable object with a CC breakbar) with a chest on top that you have to use CC skills/abilities on in order to get the chest down and opened. maybe it's a good and friendly way to introduce breakbars and CC abilities to new players that in the future level 80 content they'd do, they'll get reminded of this "breakbar"

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2021

    @Ailuro.2780 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    there shouldn't be SOME level of effort on the player to learn how the game works.

    The point is the player learn how the game works IN the game, with both a better integration to find guildmates and just friends
    AND
    A better training system.

    I get the point. Training IN the game for the details you are talking about just don't make sense ... it's literally a duplication of information that is ALREADY available to review at your leisure WITHOUT going through some clunky game interface to do it. If you want to know what stats do, you can look it up outside the game, which is actually a reasonable and preferred method.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oxstar.7643 said:
    I've found enough small errors in the base game to make me pretty convinced that they don't care enough to put the effort into redefining it.

    Or those errors are so insignificant they don't matter compared to the other issues that need to be addressed. I mean, to say they don't care ... that's pretty obviously untrue. The patch notes are pretty clear about what is fixed and they still go in and address 'base game' things. If Anet didn't care about how the game worked, they wouldn't bother patching and changing it.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Oxstar.7643Oxstar.7643 Member ✭✭✭

    These "insignificant things" are part of what's called polish. Something I see come up a lot lately.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oxstar.7643 said:
    These "insignificant things" are part of what's called polish. Something I see come up a lot lately.

    So in your opinion, lack of polish indicates not caring? That's rather sensational considering there are more important things to deal with wouldn't you agree?

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Oxstar.7643Oxstar.7643 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2021

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Oxstar.7643 said:
    These "insignificant things" are part of what's called polish. Something I see come up a lot lately.

    So in your opinion, lack of polish indicates not caring? That's rather sensational considering there are more important things to deal with wouldn't you agree?

    I never said not caring. I said not caring enough to redfine the base game, as the OP suggests. Of course they are going to fix game breaking stuff.
    Also, can you please stop misquoting me? Again - never said they don't care.

  • @Astyrah.4015 said:

    @Oxstar.7643 said:
    I doubt we need an instanced training area.

    one thing i wish they'd add to the starter zones, though not really an instanced area is a "CC-this-thing corner" with a chest on it kinda like the "dodge-the-spikes corner" with a chest on it. it wont be part of map completion, it would be super optional but it's a very small mini tutorial that could entice players to do it as soon as they can or come back for it later because it's a chest they haven't opened before. a tool tip popup would appear just like the one on the dodge-the-spikes informing the player for the first time how to get to the chest.

    it can be as simple as a stone pedestal (breakable object with a CC breakbar) with a chest on top that you have to use CC skills/abilities on in order to get the chest down and opened. maybe it's a good and friendly way to introduce breakbars and CC abilities to new players that in the future level 80 content they'd do, they'll get reminded of this "breakbar"

    That's actually a great idea! Things that promote the incentive to actually understand the essential skills in the game to prepare for end-game content is really needed in GW2.

    It'd be far simpler adding that than the instructor idea. The only benefit I see with an instanced training area is the fact that it allows the possible integration of playing around with different weapons easier and changing of stats easier as you can also put this in a home instance possibly with a bank.

  • @Oxstar.7643 said:
    These "insignificant things" are part of what's called polish. Something I see come up a lot lately.

    Exactly, players who are dismissive and called it insignificant simply just learn to live with it. That's not the right attitude. A game, especially an MMORPG should always be focused on improving its gameplay, especially the minor inadequacies when they cumulate to the hundreds.

  • I believe there are plenty of players that prefer the Wiki to asking in-game.
    Asking in-game can be a kitten shoot. At least the Wiki is almost always accurate.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2021

    @Ailuro.2780 said:

    @Oxstar.7643 said:
    These "insignificant things" are part of what's called polish. Something I see come up a lot lately.

    Exactly, players who are dismissive and called it insignificant simply just learn to live with it. That's not the right attitude. A game, especially an MMORPG should always be focused on improving its gameplay, especially the minor inadequacies when they cumulate to the hundreds.

    Not at the expense of other activities it shouldn't. This really isn't a problem; people have been learning about the details you are talking about outside of computer games since they existed, whether it's a written manual or it's internet counterparts.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2021

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Oxstar.7643 said:
    These "insignificant things" are part of what's called polish. Something I see come up a lot lately.

    So in your opinion, lack of polish indicates not caring? That's rather sensational considering there are more important things to deal with wouldn't you agree?

    That's a general problem with this game. Apparently, there are always "more important" and more recent things to deal with instead of polishing old content. Which is why the game is covered with carcasses of abandoned content and mechanics. Nobody wants to fix/tweak older stuff because it is a drudge work. It's far more glamorous to work on new things, and keep throwing stuff at the wall hoping this time it will stick.

    In the end, that "we have more important stuff to do" approach is hurting the game longterm.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Oxstar.7643Oxstar.7643 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Oxstar.7643 said:
    These "insignificant things" are part of what's called polish. Something I see come up a lot lately.

    So in your opinion, lack of polish indicates not caring? That's rather sensational considering there are more important things to deal with wouldn't you agree?

    That's a general problem with this game. Apparently, there are always "more important" and more recent things to deal with instead of polishing old content. Which is why the game is covered with carcasses of abandoned content and mechanics. Nobody wants to fix/tweak older stuff because it is a drudge work. It's far more glamorous to work on new things, and keep throwing stuff at the wall hoping this time it will stick.

    In the end, that "we have more important stuff to do" approach is hurting the game longterm.

    To be fair, AreaNet is owned by NCsoft, and all the founders of the company are gone. They sold their ability to have the final word on what to do with the game and disillusioned important members and suffered layoffs. I am of the opinion that if they had gone with a slow and steady approach then they would not have had to sell themselves to NCsoft, could have devoted much more time to making a game with less but much more polished content, and kept their founders onboard to this day.
    Rushing is bad.

  • ArenaNet 'sold' to NCSoft long before they ever released any game, much less Guild Wars 2. Not sure what 'slow and steady approach' is being referenced.

    Also, as to 'nobody wants to fix/tweak older stuff because it is a drudge work. It's far more glamorous to work on new things', I'm not sure that the Devs get to pick and choose what they want to work on, whether they think it drudge-like or glamorous.

  • Seera.5916Seera.5916 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The problem is that type of content assumes everyone needs to be hand held through how to play the game and doesn't want to learn through other means.

    I would hate having to go through the tutorial stuff you mentioned. Tutorial sessions are never like the actual game. They're boring and players will just use skill until they find the one that works and won't figure out why it works vs why others won't. Players want to get to the game or get back to the game. Not play a mandatory tutorial.

    The game would be better served by having actual missions or quests in game have new mechanics put into them that organically teach things that players need to know.

    Like the first mission that has a break bar, make it so that players need to use some CC to break the bar to make the enemy defeatable and have a weapon on hand that the player can pick up that has that. And make NPC's mention the fact that it needs some crowd control and they can use the "CC weapon" to apply some if too much time goes by without progress. At this point, they would need something like the dodge roll thing in order to achieve the same purpose as it's probably not worth it to modify the story to fix that and you'd need a way to get players who have played through the story on all of their characters that they intend to take through the story.

    I hate tutorial things that take me out of the story in order to complete it unless I'm going for like advanced tactics. But basic stuff like you're mentioning, needs to be weaved into the story or missions in an organic way.

    The mission Hidden Arcana in LS2 does this perfectly. Each of the mini-bosses teaches a mechanic that's needed to defeat the final boss.

  • @Seera.5916 said:
    The problem is that type of content assumes everyone needs to be hand held through how to play the game and doesn't want to learn through other means.
    I would hate having to go through the tutorial stuff you mentioned. Tutorial sessions are never like the actual game. They're boring and players will just use skill until they find the one that works and won't figure out why it works vs why others won't. Players want to get to the game or get back to the game. Not play a mandatory tutorial.

    As described through the pre-existing examples of the "tutorials" in town and around the beginner maps, those are completely optional. I do not support the idea of mandatory tutorials. That would go against the nature of the hands-off approach in the levelling process of guild wars2.

    The game would be better served by having actual missions or quests in game have new mechanics put into them that organically teach things that players need to know.

    The mission you described is a great idea, and like another person commented on an incentive to get a chest. Here you said:

    make NPC's mention the fact that it needs some crowd control and they can use the "CC weapon" to apply some if too much time goes by without progress.

    It would be very easy to weave in either the story or around the maps bosses having critical weaknesses and the NPCs saying something. As you already know, the training golems exist and are great to practise rotations with however from my experience, most players never know they exist till they're mentioned by another player.

    doesn't want to learn through other means.

    Bringing back what you said, this is the essential thing. There should be the freedom of choice to the player that they can go to either the wiki OR in the game with an NPC OR learn with friends OR learn with friends and they can practise alone when they want but the integration of the idea of practising skills and being conscious of what they actually do is not a well made option in my opinion.

    Players who prefer the wiki and videos can do that, but not everyone wants to learn this way.

  • Seera.5916Seera.5916 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ailuro.2780 said:

    @Seera.5916 said:
    The problem is that type of content assumes everyone needs to be hand held through how to play the game and doesn't want to learn through other means.
    I would hate having to go through the tutorial stuff you mentioned. Tutorial sessions are never like the actual game. They're boring and players will just use skill until they find the one that works and won't figure out why it works vs why others won't. Players want to get to the game or get back to the game. Not play a mandatory tutorial.

    As described through the pre-existing examples of the "tutorials" in town and around the beginner maps, those are completely optional. I do not support the idea of mandatory tutorials. That would go against the nature of the hands-off approach in the levelling process of guild wars2.

    The game would be better served by having actual missions or quests in game have new mechanics put into them that organically teach things that players need to know.

    The mission you described is a great idea, and like another person commented on an incentive to get a chest. Here you said:

    make NPC's mention the fact that it needs some crowd control and they can use the "CC weapon" to apply some if too much time goes by without progress.

    It would be very easy to weave in either the story or around the maps bosses having critical weaknesses and the NPCs saying something. As you already know, the training golems exist and are great to practise rotations with however from my experience, most players never know they exist till they're mentioned by another player.

    doesn't want to learn through other means.

    Bringing back what you said, this is the essential thing. There should be the freedom of choice to the player that they can go to either the wiki OR in the game with an NPC OR learn with friends OR learn with friends and they can practise alone when they want but the integration of the idea of practising skills and being conscious of what they actually do is not a well made option in my opinion.

    Players who prefer the wiki and videos can do that, but not everyone wants to learn this way.

    If it's optional, players will by and large most likely not do it. Leaving the same problem you're describing in place.

    The major basic stuff should have means in game to teach it near when it would be appropriate.

    Don't need in game tutorial sessions to learn that the higher DPS you have the faster you kill things. That most would call the game insulting their intelligence.

    To me, short of CC usage, the game does a good job of teaching the necessary skills for the game and does not need any major overhaul.

  • If it's optional, players will by and large most likely not do it. Leaving the same problem you're describing in place.

    Why would they not do it? It's the choice of between reading text and not playing the game, versus engaging in the game.
    Here the argument that "if it's optional" doesn't really work considering if you weigh the two, it is way more fun to actually learn in the game than read the wiki.
    Sure, it's subjective but speaking from my own experience, more people would choose to learn it in the game than read from the wiki.

    Don't need in game tutorial sessions to learn that the higher DPS you have the faster you kill things. That most would call the game insulting their intelligence.

    There are different ways of achieving this due to the difference in weapons and professions.
    Letting the players understand exactly how to achieve a higher DPS from a specific combo and understanding their trait lines is not something insulting.

    I'll say this again, many players come to end-game content with no clue what is the right weapons for them to achieve a high dps, much less knowing about combo effects in their chosen profession. The argument I'm coming from is there is more than enough evidence of people simply having to copy template builds and just forget about everything they've played with prior, it shows that they have poor understanding of the game mechanics. This is exactly why I disagree with:

    the game does a good job of teaching the necessary skills

    At the very least, if the game did a good job of teaching the necessary skills, then players would have to change a couple chosen traits in their specialization because learning that is pretty time-consuming. As far as I'm aware, a majority of new players who reach lvl 80 don't even understand why they should use a greatsword over axe/mace as as a warrior in PvE modes.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2021

    @Ailuro.2780 said:

    the game does a good job of teaching the necessary skills

    At the very least, if the game did a good job of teaching the necessary skills, then players would have to change a couple chosen traits in their specialization because learning that is pretty time-consuming. As far as I'm aware, a majority of new players who reach lvl 80 don't even understand why they should use a greatsword over axe/mace as as a warrior in PvE modes.

    I agree with @Seera.5916 that the game does a good job when teaching most of the key elements that each player should understand while making their own build. The additional explanation for cc usage against breakbars would obviously be useful, but it was already discussed many times in the past.
    It's weird that you seem to base your opinion about players "not understanding how the game/build works" on the fact that they don't run the builds you want them to run. There's nothing wrong about running axes or maces in pve modes. I don't run gs in pve on warrior because I don't want/need to (won't even try to argue with you why you're wrong about gs in pve imo, because I guess that's not the main point anyways) and it by far doesn't make me somehow confused about the game mechanics or optimal/meta builds.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Oxstar.7643 said:
    These "insignificant things" are part of what's called polish. Something I see come up a lot lately.

    So in your opinion, lack of polish indicates not caring? That's rather sensational considering there are more important things to deal with wouldn't you agree?

    Nobody wants to fix/tweak older stuff because it is a drudge work.

    Or because it's not as important as other things.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Nobody wants to fix/tweak older stuff because it is a drudge work.

    Or because it's not as important as other things.

    Dungeons were not important. Duly noted.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2021

    @Ailuro.2780 said:

    If it's optional, players will by and large most likely not do it. Leaving the same problem you're describing in place.

    Why would they not do it? It's the choice of between reading text and not playing the game, versus engaging in the game.

    I don't get this mentality ... like somehow if the information that is available outside the game isn't put IN it, people just won't play it? That doesn't make sense. No one is quitting the game because it's too much of a burden for them to read the information they want to know about the game somewhere online. Contrary to what you are saying, doing tutorials and reading information is actually NOT a very engaging aspect of gameplay, if at all.

    Also, what necessary skills is the game NOT teaching people? I mean, how many skills do you actually need to play this game? WASD, your skill buttons and dodging. The mechanics to actually play the game aren't hard or overwhelming.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Nobody wants to fix/tweak older stuff because it is a drudge work.

    Or because it's not as important as other things.

    Dungeons were not important. Duly noted.

    Honestly, I think dungeons were not important because for some reason, Anet coupled them to a specific part of the leveling storyline. I mean, your point is that dungeons don't work or something? What 'tweak' do you think they need that's so important that it gets done over other things?

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2021

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Nobody wants to fix/tweak older stuff because it is a drudge work.

    Or because it's not as important as other things.

    Dungeons were not important. Duly noted.

    Honestly, I think dungeons were not important because for some reason, Anet coupled them to a specific part of the leveling storyline. I mean, your point is that dungeons don't work or something? What 'tweak' do you think they need that's so important that it gets done over other things?

    You seem to forget that they abandoned dungeons specifically because they didn't want to fix all the bugs they were riddled with. Nor were they wiling to rewrite their code to something that would make further work on them easier.

    But i will give you another example: underwater combat.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Oxstar.7643Oxstar.7643 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Oxstar.7643 said:
    These "insignificant things" are part of what's called polish. Something I see come up a lot lately.

    So in your opinion, lack of polish indicates not caring? That's rather sensational considering there are more important things to deal with wouldn't you agree?

    Nobody wants to fix/tweak older stuff because it is a drudge work.

    Or because it's not as important as other things.

    I agree with what astralporing said. If you constantly say that there are more important things then a lot of little thing accumulate to become actual problems.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2021

    @Oxstar.7643 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Oxstar.7643 said:
    These "insignificant things" are part of what's called polish. Something I see come up a lot lately.

    So in your opinion, lack of polish indicates not caring? That's rather sensational considering there are more important things to deal with wouldn't you agree?

    Nobody wants to fix/tweak older stuff because it is a drudge work.

    Or because it's not as important as other things.

    I agree with what astralporing said. If you constantly say that there are more important things then a lot of little thing accumulate to become actual problems.

    Except information that is available for players to learn about the game NOT being in the game isn't a problem contrary to the OP. Games have worked like that since the being of their existence. Written manuals typically told you how to play or gave details about the game that weren't critical to playing it ... and that's no different with how the internet provides players with information now.

    You can agree with whatever he says ... but there is nothing that suggests the information the OP thinks should be in the game isn't there because it's 'drudge work'. It's simply available (and reasonably so) elsewhere.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Oxstar.7643Oxstar.7643 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Oxstar.7643 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Oxstar.7643 said:
    These "insignificant things" are part of what's called polish. Something I see come up a lot lately.

    So in your opinion, lack of polish indicates not caring? That's rather sensational considering there are more important things to deal with wouldn't you agree?

    Nobody wants to fix/tweak older stuff because it is a drudge work.

    Or because it's not as important as other things.

    I agree with what astralporing said. If you constantly say that there are more important things then a lot of little thing accumulate to become actual problems.

    Except information that is available for players to learn about the game NOT being in the game isn't a problem. Games have worked like that since the being of their existence.

    Actually, that is a common complaint across many games for many people. You shouldn't have to go open the wiki just because the game doesn't explain how things work well enough. And just because its a common thing doesn't mean it isn't a bad thing.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2021

    @Oxstar.7643 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Oxstar.7643 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Oxstar.7643 said:
    These "insignificant things" are part of what's called polish. Something I see come up a lot lately.

    So in your opinion, lack of polish indicates not caring? That's rather sensational considering there are more important things to deal with wouldn't you agree?

    Nobody wants to fix/tweak older stuff because it is a drudge work.

    Or because it's not as important as other things.

    I agree with what astralporing said. If you constantly say that there are more important things then a lot of little thing accumulate to become actual problems.

    Except information that is available for players to learn about the game NOT being in the game isn't a problem. Games have worked like that since the being of their existence.

    You shouldn't have to go open the wiki just because the game doesn't explain how things work well enough. And just because its a common thing doesn't mean it isn't a bad thing.

    Are we talking about learning how to play the game or talking about details like stats, etc??? Seems to me the OP is focused on issues about the details, not learning to play. The game doesn't teach you to play it? I beg to differ. The game doesn't provide all the details about certain aspects of the game? Sure, but that information is available, just not ingame ... just like how games have worked forever with written manuals, etc ...

    If the Wiki or other sources don't explain the game well enough, that's got nothing to do with whether the information is or isn't in the game itself.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.