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Please tell me why

Why would you nerf a build that is only ranked "good" (decap druid)? please refer to metabattle.com before nerfing anything. The only classes and builds that should be nerfed are the ones ranked "Meta". Meta means over powered. "Good" means it's not very effective unless played very well. Please undo the nerfs on Decap druid. It is the only druid build and one of the few ranger builds viable in conquest.

Were people actually complaining about decap druid or something??? If so that is hilarious, feel free to ignore them. Play decap druid yourself and see how not overpowered it is.

Again, please undo these nerfs to decap druid. Nerf Dragon hunters instead.

Ideally there would be no meta builds. Just all good and great, so that it comes down to skill and knowing your class and role. When there are meta builds, people flock to them because they are easier to win with. Which is cheap. I digress, as there will always be meta builds I reckon. But pls leave the "good" builds alone. They aren't the imbalance.

Comments

  • Just want to add in unranked there's great variety in builds. In higher ranked matches you pretty much just see meta slave builds. Which is bad.....but not the main issue I have at the moment. haha.

  • I think the cooldown on glyff of tides is fine, but the knockback on greatsword should be adjusted back to what it was before this highly uncalled for nerf.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Overly done designs aren't immune of criticism because they don't have a curated rating.

    GS is the most used weapon for Ranger and is one of the strongest in the game anyway. The side effects are not just pointed at that build.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:
    Why would you nerf a build that is only ranked "good" (decap druid)? please refer to metabattle.com before nerfing anything. The only classes and builds that should be nerfed are the ones ranked "Meta". Meta means over powered. "Good" means it's not very effective unless played very well. Please undo the nerfs on Decap druid. It is the only druid build and one of the few ranger builds viable in conquest.

    Were people actually complaining about decap druid or something??? If so that is hilarious, feel free to ignore them. Play decap druid yourself and see how not overpowered it is.

    Again, please undo these nerfs to decap druid. Nerf Dragon hunters instead.

    Ideally there would be no meta builds. Just all good and great, so that it comes down to skill and knowing your class and role. When there are meta builds, people flock to them because they are easier to win with. Which is cheap. I digress, as there will always be meta builds I reckon. But pls leave the "good" builds alone. They aren't the imbalance.

    You don't need to ask any question..as long as it's a ranger nerf, this community will be happy..it doesn't matter whether justified or not, it's a ranger nerf and it's enough to celebrate

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • @Arheundel.6451 said:

    You don't need to ask any question..as long as it's a ranger nerf, this community will be happy..it doesn't matter whether justified or not, it's a ranger nerf and it's enough to celebrate

    haha. I still think thief and mezmer the most hated classes tho. If a person sees them doing anything remotely well they freak out. I think the developers should focus on metabattle.com instead of listening to all the babies. hahaha. If something is meta, it's gunna need a nerf.
    Alternatively they could check a person's rank. if it's silver or lower they could just be ignored. yes!! mwahahaha. elitism. let the elites decide...i actually think it's a good idea. fight me.

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Because players rate metabattle builds, i mean any player, because build is unfun to play against.

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭

    ain't nothing but a heartache

  • @WillPaharu.4837 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    You don't need to ask any question..as long as it's a ranger nerf, this community will be happy..it doesn't matter whether justified or not, it's a ranger nerf and it's enough to celebrate

    haha. I still think thief and mezmer the most hated classes tho. If a person sees them doing anything remotely well they freak out. I think the developers should focus on metabattle.com instead of listening to all the babies. hahaha. If something is meta, it's gunna need a nerf.
    Alternatively they could check a person's rank. if it's silver or lower they could just be ignored. yes!! mwahahaha. elitism. let the elites decide...i actually think it's a good idea. fight me.

    Im pretty sure the dev only listens to the pvp/wvw discord. The forums dont really dictate anything.

  • @WillPaharu.4837 said:
    I think the cooldown on glyff of tides is fine, but the knockback on greatsword should be adjusted back to what it was before this highly uncalled for nerf.

    The GS "nerf" might even be a buff if the ranger actually plans on HITTING the target, and not just push them away. The glyph is mainly used to decap and has no telling anyway, so the nerf is more than justified.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2021

    Imagine referencing metabattle as some kind of argument. The site that has core engineer rated as higher than decap druid, and rates holosmith higher than renegade, DH, healbreaker.....

  • @Ragnar.4257 said:
    Imagine referencing metabattle as some kind of argument. The site that has core engineer rated as higher than decap druid, and rates holosmith higher than renegade, DH, healbreaker.....

    ?? what site is rating holosmith higher than renegade? on metabattle the only meta builds displayed are renegade, dh, healbreaker.

  • @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    Imagine referencing metabattle as some kind of argument. The site that has core engineer rated as higher than decap druid, and rates holosmith higher than renegade, DH, healbreaker.....

    ?? what site is rating holosmith higher than renegade? on metabattle the only meta builds displayed are renegade, dh, healbreaker.

    Explosive Sword (Holo): 5/5
    Shortbow Shiro: 4.4/5

    The fact is, that the ratings and 'meta' designation on metabattle are just some guy's opinion. It's no more valid than your opinion or mine, not based on some complex statistical analysis.

    Saying "metabattle says......" is the same as saying "I know this dude who says......"

    the builds on meta battle that are ranked meta are the current meta builds. they are always the meta builds. the strongest builds. you're ignoring my point and trying to say it's down to opinion. but the fact is builds listed as meta are the most popular/strongest builds. I don't care about the ratings by the users, I'm saying what is actually listed on the site as meta are the meta builds. or are you going to say that shortbow rev, dh and heal breaker aren't meta? are you going to say that every meta build ever listed as a meta build is has not been a meta build?
    Metabattle.com meta builds are the way for seeing what the current strongest build and therefore a reliable place to look at what might be overpowered.

    And on the point of user ratings, they are rated by people who actually play the build. the opinions of the players are the basis for nerfs. if you're saying we can ignore popular opionon, then arena net would never have to do a nerf again. that is not so, because popular opinion dictates the game mode. if players are saying a build is only "good" and not "great" or "meta" then it's not much of a threat or a problem.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2021

    So the crux of your argument is the build, based on metabattle, isn't strictly meta therefore shouldn't be nerfed / can in no way can be a problem or threat?

    ...

    You must be new here.
    Loads of stuff in that category has been changed in the past.

  • Kachros.4751Kachros.4751 Member ✭✭✭

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:
    Why would you nerf a build that is only ranked "good" (decap druid)? please refer to metabattle.com before nerfing anything. The only classes and builds that should be nerfed are the ones ranked "Meta". Meta means over powered. "Good" means it's not very effective unless played very well. Please undo the nerfs on Decap druid. It is the only druid build and one of the few ranger builds viable in conquest.

    Were people actually complaining about decap druid or something??? If so that is hilarious, feel free to ignore them. Play decap druid yourself and see how not overpowered it is.

    Again, please undo these nerfs to decap druid. Nerf Dragon hunters instead.

    Ideally there would be no meta builds. Just all good and great, so that it comes down to skill and knowing your class and role. When there are meta builds, people flock to them because they are easier to win with. Which is cheap. I digress, as there will always be meta builds I reckon. But pls leave the "good" builds alone. They aren't the imbalance.

    This is absurdly insane that you believe decap druid is fine for pvp. It produces insanely brain afk gameplay and very little counterplay unless you play full power warrior or rev for example. Anyone can play druid and get really good value with the most basic knowledge of it, if you believe that ANYONE, no matter how good or bad they are should be allowed to get value with a low skillcap build i believe you may need to change your view on pvp.

  • Kachros.4751Kachros.4751 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kachros.4751 said:

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:
    Why would you nerf a build that is only ranked "good" (decap druid)? please refer to metabattle.com before nerfing anything. The only classes and builds that should be nerfed are the ones ranked "Meta". Meta means over powered. "Good" means it's not very effective unless played very well. Please undo the nerfs on Decap druid. It is the only druid build and one of the few ranger builds viable in conquest.

    Were people actually complaining about decap druid or something??? If so that is hilarious, feel free to ignore them. Play decap druid yourself and see how not overpowered it is.

    Again, please undo these nerfs to decap druid. Nerf Dragon hunters instead.

    Ideally there would be no meta builds. Just all good and great, so that it comes down to skill and knowing your class and role. When there are meta builds, people flock to them because they are easier to win with. Which is cheap. I digress, as there will always be meta builds I reckon. But pls leave the "good" builds alone. They aren't the imbalance.

    This is absurdly insane that you believe decap druid is fine for pvp. It produces insanely brain afk gameplay and very little counterplay unless you play full power warrior or rev for example. Anyone can play druid and get really good value with the most basic knowledge of it, if you believe that ANYONE, no matter how good or bad they are should be allowed to get value with a low skillcap build i believe you may need to change your view on pvp.

    Just to clarify, i am in no sense defending DH either, there are many builds that were not touched upon enough within the last patch, or in the last few patches for that matter, however they have targeted good spots for those few degenerate builds that deserved their nerfs, whether or not its enough is up for debate however.

  • @Kachros.4751 said:

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:
    Why would you nerf a build that is only ranked "good" (decap druid)? please refer to metabattle.com before nerfing anything. The only classes and builds that should be nerfed are the ones ranked "Meta". Meta means over powered. "Good" means it's not very effective unless played very well. Please undo the nerfs on Decap druid. It is the only druid build and one of the few ranger builds viable in conquest.

    Were people actually complaining about decap druid or something??? If so that is hilarious, feel free to ignore them. Play decap druid yourself and see how not overpowered it is.

    Again, please undo these nerfs to decap druid. Nerf Dragon hunters instead.

    Ideally there would be no meta builds. Just all good and great, so that it comes down to skill and knowing your class and role. When there are meta builds, people flock to them because they are easier to win with. Which is cheap. I digress, as there will always be meta builds I reckon. But pls leave the "good" builds alone. They aren't the imbalance.

    This is absurdly insane that you believe decap druid is fine for pvp. It produces insanely brain afk gameplay and very little counterplay unless you play full power warrior or rev for example. Anyone can play druid and get really good value with the most basic knowledge of it, if you believe that ANYONE, no matter how good or bad they are should be allowed to get value with a low skillcap build i believe you may need to change your view on pvp.

    decap druid isn't easy. I sense you haven't tried playing it. It's no weaver, but it's not walk in the park. you can easily waste your knockbacks anand misplay, get killed or waste your time, render yourself useless.

  • @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    So the crux of your argument is the build, based on metabattle, isn't strictly meta therefore shouldn't be nerfed / can in no way can be a problem or threat?

    ...

    You must be new here.
    Loads of stuff in that category has been changed in the past.

    I don't care about how often it's done, I don't see the logic behind it. have you seen "good" builds in plat games? the crux of my argument is they aren't even remotely meta. have you even seen a decap druid in high ranked games? have you seen a druid in a team that has won monthly ATs? The build is not that effective compared to broken builds. Dragon hunter and rev short bow should be the priority. The nerfs weren't that bad, but I maintain that they were uncalled for and bottom priority.

  • Kachros.4751Kachros.4751 Member ✭✭✭

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:

    @Kachros.4751 said:

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:
    Why would you nerf a build that is only ranked "good" (decap druid)? please refer to metabattle.com before nerfing anything. The only classes and builds that should be nerfed are the ones ranked "Meta". Meta means over powered. "Good" means it's not very effective unless played very well. Please undo the nerfs on Decap druid. It is the only druid build and one of the few ranger builds viable in conquest.

    Were people actually complaining about decap druid or something??? If so that is hilarious, feel free to ignore them. Play decap druid yourself and see how not overpowered it is.

    Again, please undo these nerfs to decap druid. Nerf Dragon hunters instead.

    Ideally there would be no meta builds. Just all good and great, so that it comes down to skill and knowing your class and role. When there are meta builds, people flock to them because they are easier to win with. Which is cheap. I digress, as there will always be meta builds I reckon. But pls leave the "good" builds alone. They aren't the imbalance.

    This is absurdly insane that you believe decap druid is fine for pvp. It produces insanely brain afk gameplay and very little counterplay unless you play full power warrior or rev for example. Anyone can play druid and get really good value with the most basic knowledge of it, if you believe that ANYONE, no matter how good or bad they are should be allowed to get value with a low skillcap build i believe you may need to change your view on pvp.

    decap druid isn't easy. I sense you haven't tried playing it. It's no weaver, but it's not walk in the park. you can easily waste your knockbacks anand misplay, get killed or waste your time, render yourself useless.

    Ive played it numerous times vs both good and bad players, you have 3 knockbacks in about 8 seconds (with quickdraw), if you use even 1 IQ you bait enemy dodge and its easy, it takes next to 0 effort to keep a node decapped, the only scenario in which its not easy is if you vs a hard counter for it, being renegade or warrior. In terms of gameplay weaver is actually harder as you only need to know 3 things for druid, in terms of surviving druid is harder as it has very little counter pressure due to its very low damage, however that doesnt stop the gameplay being so brain afk. Supporting builds like this which do 0 damage, just provide insane value for little effort (especially in ranked and lower levels) is what makes pvp so bad right now, its a bunker/decap metas that get complained about the most and for good reason, keeping builds like this viable makes pvp overall worse and targeting them for nerfs is a good choice, there are some players who wish to keep builds like these as it can be personal preference but the fact remains that its not healthy for pvp.

  • Kachros.4751Kachros.4751 Member ✭✭✭

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    So the crux of your argument is the build, based on metabattle, isn't strictly meta therefore shouldn't be nerfed / can in no way can be a problem or threat?

    ...

    You must be new here.
    Loads of stuff in that category has been changed in the past.

    I don't care about how often it's done, I don't see the logic behind it. have you seen "good" builds in plat games? the crux of my argument is they aren't even remotely meta. have you even seen a decap druid in high ranked games? have you seen a druid in a team that has won monthly ATs? The build is not that effective compared to broken builds. Dragon hunter and rev short bow should be the priority. The nerfs weren't that bad, but I maintain that they were uncalled for and bottom priority.

    Your logic here is flawed, very flawed, just because something is meta does not make it "fine" for pvp, to clarify Fraelin played decap druid and won the last mAT, that alone is misinformation on your part, lets say for example some of the "meta" builds get nerfed, guess whats gonna happen. Yeah, decap druid would be good again, they are providing nerfs for future issues as well as issues at hand, its a good choice which we have needed for a long time.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    So the crux of your argument is the build, based on metabattle, isn't strictly meta therefore shouldn't be nerfed / can in no way can be a problem or threat?

    ...

    You must be new here.
    Loads of stuff in that category has been changed in the past.

    I don't care about how often it's done, I don't see the logic behind it. have you seen "good" builds in plat games? the crux of my argument is they aren't even remotely meta. have you even seen a decap druid in high ranked games? have you seen a druid in a team that has won monthly ATs? The build is not that effective compared to broken builds. Dragon hunter and rev short bow should be the priority. The nerfs weren't that bad, but I maintain that they were uncalled for and bottom priority.

  • Here are the problems with the arguments being made.
    1) It assumes metabattle is a source of truth for what is strong and therefore deserves nerfs. This is a false assumption to make as many others have already described.
    2) It assumes that the only reason you nerf skills is due to it being meta. This is also a false assumption to make. For instance, decap builds could very well just be nerfed because they are insanely unfun to play against, regardless of their effectiveness. Effectiveness of a build is not the only reason to buff/nerf something.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2021

    most rangers will agree that kitten decap druid.
    They should probably nerf ancient seed too because kitten that trait, then they can go ahead and nerf it again and again and THAN they can think about making druid a proper support instead of this pile of smelly cheese.

    P.S
    reducing gs KB to 100 might be a buff, but in my personal opinon it just looks super silly, make it 150 or 200 please.

    PSS
    srsl kitten decap druid with a stick. Sideways.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2021

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Overly done designs aren't immune of criticism because they don't have a curated rating.

    GS is the most used weapon for Ranger and is one of the strongest in the game anyway. The side effects are not just pointed at that build.

    That nerf to GS4 knockback was actually an insane unintended buff btw.

    Before the nerf, if a Ranger knocked you back with GS4, the knockback was so far that it was nearly impossible to get to a veteran opponent and continue your combo melee side by following up with a Maul and it was surely impossible to follow that Maul with a Hilt Bash to reset Maul and go into WI.

    But NOW after that nerf, the knockback is so short that you can immediately push Maul and hit the person after the knockback and there is plenty of time to go directly into Hilt Bash, reset Maul, land a merged Smokescale F1 CC, Maul again and go into WI. And even if the person is a veteran player and is able to survive, your CCs melee side reset quickly enough that you can perpetually juggle the opponent with CC threats until you eventually win and you don't even need to swap to Longbow any longer.

    Essentially, that GS4 knockback range was the only thing that allowed players breathing room to avoid Ranger perma CC juggling. Now fighting threatening DPS oriented Ranger builds feels like you're in melee against a Hammer Spellbreaker who actually hits with large damage instead of nerfed Hammer strikes. When more people figure it out, you'll be seeing a lot more play from builds like what I run, and a lot less Decap Druids.

    When I noticed what the shortened knockback range was allowing me to do, I laughed out loud like Waluigi and enjoyed a 1st place win in an AT session while juggling the absolute kitten out of some great players who were confused as to why I was suddenly twice as dangerous in melee range.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2021

    @Krysard.1364 said:

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:
    I think the cooldown on glyff of tides is fine, but the knockback on greatsword should be adjusted back to what it was before this highly uncalled for nerf.

    The GS "nerf" might even be a buff if the ranger actually plans on HITTING the target, and not just push them away. The glyph is mainly used to decap and has no telling anyway, so the nerf is more than justified.

    It was definitely an unintended buff for DPS oriented Ranger/Soulbeast builds. Read my previous post.

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    most rangers will agree that kitten decap druid.
    They should probably nerf ancient seed too because kitten that trait, then they can go ahead and nerf it again and again and THAN they can think about making druid a proper support instead of this pile of smelly cheese.

    P.S
    reducing gs KB to 100 might be a buff, but in my personal opinon it just looks super silly, make it 150 or 200 please.

    PSS
    srsl kitten decap druid with a stick. Sideways.

    Unfounded bias right here. Why there got to be so many haters for none competitive build/class. leave my druids alone! we are few!

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    most rangers will agree that kitten decap druid.
    They should probably nerf ancient seed too because kitten that trait, then they can go ahead and nerf it again and again and THAN they can think about making druid a proper support instead of this pile of smelly cheese.

    P.S
    reducing gs KB to 100 might be a buff, but in my personal opinon it just looks super silly, make it 150 or 200 please.

    PSS
    srsl kitten decap druid with a stick. Sideways.

    Unfounded bias right here. Why there got to be so many haters for none competitive build/class. leave my druids alone! we are few!

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    most rangers will agree that kitten decap druid.
    They should probably nerf ancient seed too because kitten that trait, then they can go ahead and nerf it again and again and THAN they can think about making druid a proper support instead of this pile of smelly cheese.

    P.S
    reducing gs KB to 100 might be a buff, but in my personal opinon it just looks super silly, make it 150 or 200 please.

    PSS
    srsl kitten decap druid with a stick. Sideways.

    Unfounded bias right here. Why there got to be so many haters for none competitive build/class. leave my druids alone! we are few!

    That is a fake game and you know it. There is 2 (TWO) thieves in that game! Silver tier maximum!

    Freaking nerf thief!

  • @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    So the crux of your argument is the build, based on metabattle, isn't strictly meta therefore shouldn't be nerfed / can in no way can be a problem or threat?

    ...

    You must be new here.
    Loads of stuff in that category has been changed in the past.

    I don't care about how often it's done, I don't see the logic behind it. have you seen "good" builds in plat games? the crux of my argument is they aren't even remotely meta. have you even seen a decap druid in high ranked games? have you seen a druid in a team that has won monthly ATs? The build is not that effective compared to broken builds. Dragon hunter and rev short bow should be the priority. The nerfs weren't that bad, but I maintain that they were uncalled for and bottom priority.

    not gunna lie that was incredibly satisfying haha. > @Kachros.4751 said:

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:

    @Kachros.4751 said:

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:
    Why would you nerf a build that is only ranked "good" (decap druid)? please refer to metabattle.com before nerfing anything. The only classes and builds that should be nerfed are the ones ranked "Meta". Meta means over powered. "Good" means it's not very effective unless played very well. Please undo the nerfs on Decap druid. It is the only druid build and one of the few ranger builds viable in conquest.

    Were people actually complaining about decap druid or something??? If so that is hilarious, feel free to ignore them. Play decap druid yourself and see how not overpowered it is.

    Again, please undo these nerfs to decap druid. Nerf Dragon hunters instead.

    Ideally there would be no meta builds. Just all good and great, so that it comes down to skill and knowing your class and role. When there are meta builds, people flock to them because they are easier to win with. Which is cheap. I digress, as there will always be meta builds I reckon. But pls leave the "good" builds alone. They aren't the imbalance.

    This is absurdly insane that you believe decap druid is fine for pvp. It produces insanely brain afk gameplay and very little counterplay unless you play full power warrior or rev for example. Anyone can play druid and get really good value with the most basic knowledge of it, if you believe that ANYONE, no matter how good or bad they are should be allowed to get value with a low skillcap build i believe you may need to change your view on pvp.

    decap druid isn't easy. I sense you haven't tried playing it. It's no weaver, but it's not walk in the park. you can easily waste your knockbacks anand misplay, get killed or waste your time, render yourself useless.

    Ive played it numerous times vs both good and bad players, you have 3 knockbacks in about 8 seconds (with quickdraw), if you use even 1 IQ you bait enemy dodge and its easy, it takes next to 0 effort to keep a node decapped, the only scenario in which its not easy is if you vs a hard counter for it, being renegade or warrior. In terms of gameplay weaver is actually harder as you only need to know 3 things for druid, in terms of surviving druid is harder as it has very little counter pressure due to its very low damage, however that doesnt stop the gameplay being so brain afk. Supporting builds like this which do 0 damage, just provide insane value for little effort (especially in ranked and lower levels) is what makes pvp so bad right now, its a bunker/decap metas that get complained about the most and for good reason, keeping builds like this viable makes pvp overall worse and targeting them for nerfs is a good choice, there are some players who wish to keep builds like these as it can be personal preference but the fact remains that its not healthy for pvp.

    I disagree. I think bunker builds add variety and can be countered easily by a simple plus one and are therefore not a big threat. And if you were playing braindead, you wouldn't be baiting dodges. Against, just because it's not super complicated doesn't mean it requires no skill. people who complain about bunker builds are welcome to their opinion but unless a build can handle a 2v1 or 3v1 situation, it's not broken. just because you can't kill the person you are 1v1ing doesn't mean their build must be a monkey one. I've lost many 1v1's simply by being outplayed as druid against every class. It's not exceptional.

  • @WillPaharu.4837 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    So the crux of your argument is the build, based on metabattle, isn't strictly meta therefore shouldn't be nerfed / can in no way can be a problem or threat?

    ...

    You must be new here.
    Loads of stuff in that category has been changed in the past.

    I don't care about how often it's done, I don't see the logic behind it. have you seen "good" builds in plat games? the crux of my argument is they aren't even remotely meta. have you even seen a decap druid in high ranked games? have you seen a druid in a team that has won monthly ATs? The build is not that effective compared to broken builds. Dragon hunter and rev short bow should be the priority. The nerfs weren't that bad, but I maintain that they were uncalled for and bottom priority.

    not gunna lie that was incredibly satisfying haha. > @Kachros.4751 said:

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:

    @Kachros.4751 said:

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:
    Why would you nerf a build that is only ranked "good" (decap druid)? please refer to metabattle.com before nerfing anything. The only classes and builds that should be nerfed are the ones ranked "Meta". Meta means over powered. "Good" means it's not very effective unless played very well. Please undo the nerfs on Decap druid. It is the only druid build and one of the few ranger builds viable in conquest.

    Were people actually complaining about decap druid or something??? If so that is hilarious, feel free to ignore them. Play decap druid yourself and see how not overpowered it is.

    Again, please undo these nerfs to decap druid. Nerf Dragon hunters instead.

    Ideally there would be no meta builds. Just all good and great, so that it comes down to skill and knowing your class and role. When there are meta builds, people flock to them because they are easier to win with. Which is cheap. I digress, as there will always be meta builds I reckon. But pls leave the "good" builds alone. They aren't the imbalance.

    This is absurdly insane that you believe decap druid is fine for pvp. It produces insanely brain afk gameplay and very little counterplay unless you play full power warrior or rev for example. Anyone can play druid and get really good value with the most basic knowledge of it, if you believe that ANYONE, no matter how good or bad they are should be allowed to get value with a low skillcap build i believe you may need to change your view on pvp.

    decap druid isn't easy. I sense you haven't tried playing it. It's no weaver, but it's not walk in the park. you can easily waste your knockbacks anand misplay, get killed or waste your time, render yourself useless.

    Ive played it numerous times vs both good and bad players, you have 3 knockbacks in about 8 seconds (with quickdraw), if you use even 1 IQ you bait enemy dodge and its easy, it takes next to 0 effort to keep a node decapped, the only scenario in which its not easy is if you vs a hard counter for it, being renegade or warrior. In terms of gameplay weaver is actually harder as you only need to know 3 things for druid, in terms of surviving druid is harder as it has very little counter pressure due to its very low damage, however that doesnt stop the gameplay being so brain afk. Supporting builds like this which do 0 damage, just provide insane value for little effort (especially in ranked and lower levels) is what makes pvp so bad right now, its a bunker/decap metas that get complained about the most and for good reason, keeping builds like this viable makes pvp overall worse and targeting them for nerfs is a good choice, there are some players who wish to keep builds like these as it can be personal preference but the fact remains that its not healthy for pvp.

    I disagree. I think bunker builds add variety and can be countered easily by a simple plus one and are therefore not a big threat. And if you were playing braindead, you wouldn't be baiting dodges. Against, just because it's not super complicated doesn't mean it requires no skill. people who complain about bunker builds are welcome to their opinion but unless a build can handle a 2v1 or 3v1 situation, it's not broken. just because you can't kill the person you are 1v1ing doesn't mean their build must be a monkey one. I've lost many 1v1's simply by being outplayed as druid against every class. It's not exceptional.

    srry wrong thing haha

  • @Kachros.4751 said:

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:

    @Kachros.4751 said:

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:
    Why would you nerf a build that is only ranked "good" (decap druid)? please refer to metabattle.com before nerfing anything. The only classes and builds that should be nerfed are the ones ranked "Meta". Meta means over powered. "Good" means it's not very effective unless played very well. Please undo the nerfs on Decap druid. It is the only druid build and one of the few ranger builds viable in conquest.

    Were people actually complaining about decap druid or something??? If so that is hilarious, feel free to ignore them. Play decap druid yourself and see how not overpowered it is.

    Again, please undo these nerfs to decap druid. Nerf Dragon hunters instead.

    Ideally there would be no meta builds. Just all good and great, so that it comes down to skill and knowing your class and role. When there are meta builds, people flock to them because they are easier to win with. Which is cheap. I digress, as there will always be meta builds I reckon. But pls leave the "good" builds alone. They aren't the imbalance.

    This is absurdly insane that you believe decap druid is fine for pvp. It produces insanely brain afk gameplay and very little counterplay unless you play full power warrior or rev for example. Anyone can play druid and get really good value with the most basic knowledge of it, if you believe that ANYONE, no matter how good or bad they are should be allowed to get value with a low skillcap build i believe you may need to change your view on pvp.

    decap druid isn't easy. I sense you haven't tried playing it. It's no weaver, but it's not walk in the park. you can easily waste your knockbacks anand misplay, get killed or waste your time, render yourself useless.

    Ive played it numerous times vs both good and bad players, you have 3 knockbacks in about 8 seconds (with quickdraw), if you use even 1 IQ you bait enemy dodge and its easy, it takes next to 0 effort to keep a node decapped, the only scenario in which its not easy is if you vs a hard counter for it, being renegade or warrior. In terms of gameplay weaver is actually harder as you only need to know 3 things for druid, in terms of surviving druid is harder as it has very little counter pressure due to its very low damage, however that doesnt stop the gameplay being so brain afk. Supporting builds like this which do 0 damage, just provide insane value for little effort (especially in ranked and lower levels) is what makes pvp so bad right now, its a bunker/decap metas that get complained about the most and for good reason, keeping builds like this viable makes pvp overall worse and targeting them for nerfs is a good choice, there are some players who wish to keep builds like these as it can be personal preference but the fact remains that its not healthy for pvp.

    I disagree. From wher ei stand, if a build is different people want to complain about it as if it's some trolly thing. So what if you can't kill your opponent easily in a 1v1 even though they don't do much damage? I think bunker builds add variety and can be countered easily by a simple plus one. And if you were playing braindead, you wouldn't be baiting dodges. Again, just because it's not super complicated doesn't mean it requires no skill. people who complain about bunker builds are welcome to their opinion but unless a build can handle a 1v2 or 1v3 situation without loosing the point, it's not broken. If you don't wanna 1v1 them, then call for a plus one or come back with friends or just cap the rest of the map. Bunker builds are a valid form of gameplay. I've lost many 1v1's simply by being outplayed as druid against every class. It's not exceptional. Stronger classes needed the nerfs.

  • @ButterPeanut.9746 said:
    Here are the problems with the arguments being made.
    1) It assumes metabattle is a source of truth for what is strong and therefore deserves nerfs. This is a false assumption to make as many others have already described.
    2) It assumes that the only reason you nerf skills is due to it being meta. This is also a false assumption to make. For instance, decap builds could very well just be nerfed because they are insanely unfun to play against, regardless of their effectiveness. Effectiveness of a build is not the only reason to buff/nerf something.

    I don't think any one has been able to say that the builds listed as meta on metabattle aren't meta....cuz they are. So yes, it's a source of truth. Taking the nerfes as a target to decap druid, I feel the changes were completely unnecessary and low priority. We can all agree that DH and Rev needed more nerfing. However the changes to GS aren't bad any way. I've gotten over it hhaaha XD it was actually a buff if you wanna do damage. I still wish they did something more productive so there would be more variety in plat games, but meh.

  • @Kachros.4751 said:

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    So the crux of your argument is the build, based on metabattle, isn't strictly meta therefore shouldn't be nerfed / can in no way can be a problem or threat?

    ...

    You must be new here.
    Loads of stuff in that category has been changed in the past.

    I don't care about how often it's done, I don't see the logic behind it. have you seen "good" builds in plat games? the crux of my argument is they aren't even remotely meta. have you even seen a decap druid in high ranked games? have you seen a druid in a team that has won monthly ATs? The build is not that effective compared to broken builds. Dragon hunter and rev short bow should be the priority. The nerfs weren't that bad, but I maintain that they were uncalled for and bottom priority.

    Your logic here is flawed, very flawed, just because something is meta does not make it "fine" for pvp, to clarify Fraelin played decap druid and won the last mAT, that alone is misinformation on your part, lets say for example some of the "meta" builds get nerfed, guess whats gonna happen. Yeah, decap druid would be good again, they are providing nerfs for future issues as well as issues at hand, its a good choice which we have needed for a long time.

    I think you're confusing things I said, jumbling them here. Particualrly this sentence confuses me: jsut because something is meta does not make it "fine" for pvp.

    And yes, that is news to me. I just know i don't see..ANY push druid in plat games haha. It's all just the meta and great builds ( DH, Rev).

  • by being outplayed as druid against every class. It's not exceptional.

    I haven't seen druid be > @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    So the crux of your argument is the build, based on metabattle, isn't strictly meta therefore shouldn't be nerfed / can in no way can be a problem or threat?

    ...

    You must be new here.
    Loads of stuff in that category has been changed in the past.

    I don't care about how often it's done, I don't see the logic behind it. have you seen "good" builds in plat games? the crux of my argument is they aren't even remotely meta. have you even seen a decap druid in high ranked games? have you seen a druid in a team that has won monthly ATs? The build is not that effective compared to broken builds. Dragon hunter and rev short bow should be the priority. The nerfs weren't that bad, but I maintain that they were uncalled for and bottom priority.

    I haven't seen druid in At's in so long. So that was refreshing. I feel like druid finally has a somewhat valid build again and i don't want it to be destroyed by people who just hate bunkers. ppl just can't stand different styles of gameplay. if you boil it down it's, whack an enemy to death, condition them to death, or just survive. And I think that's nice. three is a good number. If a build, including a bunker build, is broken and can just 1v3 all day and still hold a point then that needs to die. but there are no builds like that now. We in a good place.

    Druid not even close to the most competitive class right now though. that's why you don't see them like ever in plat games. DH and Rev are waaaay stronger. So I was salty when I felt attacked. but the nerfs aren't actually that bad.

  • @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    most rangers will agree that kitten decap druid.
    They should probably nerf ancient seed too because kitten that trait, then they can go ahead and nerf it again and again and THAN they can think about making druid a proper support instead of this pile of smelly cheese.

    P.S
    reducing gs KB to 100 might be a buff, but in my personal opinon it just looks super silly, make it 150 or 200 please.

    PSS
    srsl kitten decap druid with a stick. Sideways.

    Unfounded bias right here. Why there got to be so many haters for none competitive build/class. leave my druids alone! we are few!

    you show one video of one fight in an organized team. show me druids taking over plat games, then you might have a point.

  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Overly done designs aren't immune of criticism because they don't have a curated rating.

    GS is the most used weapon for Ranger and is one of the strongest in the game anyway. The side effects are not just pointed at that build.

    That nerf to GS4 knockback was actually an insane unintended buff btw.

    Before the nerf, if a Ranger knocked you back with GS4, the knockback was so far that it was nearly impossible to get to a veteran opponent and continue your combo melee side by following up with a Maul and it was surely impossible to follow that Maul with a Hilt Bash to reset Maul and go into WI.

    But NOW after that nerf, the knockback is so short that you can immediately push Maul and hit the person after the knockback and there is plenty of time to go directly into Hilt Bash, reset Maul, land a merged Smokescale F1 CC, Maul again and go into WI. And even if the person is a veteran player and is able to survive, your CCs melee side reset quickly enough that you can perpetually juggle the opponent with CC threats until you eventually win and you don't even need to swap to Longbow any longer.

    Essentially, that GS4 knockback range was the only thing that allowed players breathing room to avoid Ranger perma CC juggling. Now fighting threatening DPS oriented Ranger builds feels like you're in melee against a Hammer Spellbreaker who actually hits with large damage instead of nerfed Hammer strikes. When more people figure it out, you'll be seeing a lot more play from builds like what I run, and a lot less Decap Druids.

    When I noticed what the shortened knockback range was allowing me to do, I laughed out loud like Waluigi and enjoyed a 1st place win in an AT session while juggling the absolute kitten out of some great players who were confused as to why I was suddenly twice as dangerous in melee range.

    ^ This. Do you know how many warriors would kill to have the knockback on Staggering Blow and Kick reduced to 100? Serious Ranger buff right there.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    most rangers will agree that kitten decap druid.
    They should probably nerf ancient seed too because kitten that trait, then they can go ahead and nerf it again and again and THAN they can think about making druid a proper support instead of this pile of smelly cheese.

    P.S
    reducing gs KB to 100 might be a buff, but in my personal opinon it just looks super silly, make it 150 or 200 please.

    PSS
    srsl kitten decap druid with a stick. Sideways.

    Unfounded bias right here. Why there got to be so many haters for none competitive build/class. leave my druids alone! we are few!

    you show one video of one fight in an organized team. show me druids taking over plat games, then you might have a point.

    Nothing you do or say will ever change the mind of people here, when I told you that any ranger nerf will be always welcome by this community....I wasn't kidding at all, people here are just using the word : balance as a front cover

    People at large hate this profession, even more when it does well and there is not a single build on ranger that will ever be consideed "skilled", never was and never will be...

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    ^ This. Do you know how many warriors would kill to have the knockback on Staggering Blow and Kick reduced to 100? Serious Ranger buff right there.

    if you buff kick war might be able to land bursts. unthinkable, ban thee from forum use heathen!!

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • I dunno what to tell you, man. PvP...Ain't nothing but a heartache.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 27, 2021

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    ^ This. Do you know how many warriors would kill to have the knockback on Staggering Blow and Kick reduced to 100? Serious Ranger buff right there.

    if you buff kick war might be able to land bursts. unthinkable, ban thee from forum use heathen!!

    :lol: Imagine the forum QQ if warrior were able to land bursts even slightly more easily.

  • Tharan.9085Tharan.9085 Member ✭✭✭

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:
    Why would you nerf a build that is only ranked "good" (decap druid)? please refer to metabattle.com before nerfing anything. The only classes and builds that should be nerfed are the ones ranked "Meta". Meta means over powered. "Good" means it's not very effective unless played very well. Please undo the nerfs on Decap druid. It is the only druid build and one of the few ranger builds viable in conquest.

    Were people actually complaining about decap druid or something??? If so that is hilarious, feel free to ignore them. Play decap druid yourself and see how not overpowered it is.

    Again, please undo these nerfs to decap druid. Nerf Dragon hunters instead.

    Ideally there would be no meta builds. Just all good and great, so that it comes down to skill and knowing your class and role. When there are meta builds, people flock to them because they are easier to win with. Which is cheap. I digress, as there will always be meta builds I reckon. But pls leave the "good" builds alone. They aren't the imbalance.

    imagine thinking metabattle is a good source for anything

  • @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Decap druid allows bad players to think theyre good. Hence this entire post.

    bias much. unfounded as can be.

  • @Tharan.9085 said:

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:
    Why would you nerf a build that is only ranked "good" (decap druid)? please refer to metabattle.com before nerfing anything. The only classes and builds that should be nerfed are the ones ranked "Meta". Meta means over powered. "Good" means it's not very effective unless played very well. Please undo the nerfs on Decap druid. It is the only druid build and one of the few ranger builds viable in conquest.

    Were people actually complaining about decap druid or something??? If so that is hilarious, feel free to ignore them. Play decap druid yourself and see how not overpowered it is.

    Again, please undo these nerfs to decap druid. Nerf Dragon hunters instead.

    Ideally there would be no meta builds. Just all good and great, so that it comes down to skill and knowing your class and role. When there are meta builds, people flock to them because they are easier to win with. Which is cheap. I digress, as there will always be meta builds I reckon. But pls leave the "good" builds alone. They aren't the imbalance.

    imagine thinking metabattle is a good source for anything

    yah lets just pretend they don't have all the current meta builds. okay.

  • @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    most rangers will agree that kitten decap druid.
    They should probably nerf ancient seed too because kitten that trait, then they can go ahead and nerf it again and again and THAN they can think about making druid a proper support instead of this pile of smelly cheese.

    P.S
    reducing gs KB to 100 might be a buff, but in my personal opinon it just looks super silly, make it 150 or 200 please.

    PSS
    srsl kitten decap druid with a stick. Sideways.

    Unfounded bias right here. Why there got to be so many haters for none competitive build/class. leave my druids alone! we are few!

    you show one video of one fight in an organized team. show me druids taking over plat games, then you might have a point.

    Nothing you do or say will ever change the mind of people here, when I told you that any ranger nerf will be always welcome by this community....I wasn't kidding at all, people here are just using the word : balance as a front cover

    People at large hate this profession, even more when it does well and there is not a single build on ranger that will ever be consideed "skilled", never was and never will be...

    we can just point and laugh at all the sad haters.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:
    Why would you nerf a build that is only ranked "good" (decap druid)? please refer to metabattle.com before nerfing anything. The only classes and builds that should be nerfed are the ones ranked "Meta". Meta means over powered. "Good" means it's not very effective unless played very well. Please undo the nerfs on Decap druid. It is the only druid build and one of the few ranger builds viable in conquest.

    Were people actually complaining about decap druid or something??? If so that is hilarious, feel free to ignore them. Play decap druid yourself and see how not overpowered it is.

    Again, please undo these nerfs to decap druid. Nerf Dragon hunters instead.

    Ideally there would be no meta builds. Just all good and great, so that it comes down to skill and knowing your class and role. When there are meta builds, people flock to them because they are easier to win with. Which is cheap. I digress, as there will always be meta builds I reckon. But pls leave the "good" builds alone. They aren't the imbalance.

    I thought people were only complaining about druids with ability to root folks? I don't recall complaints about druid dmg.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2021

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:
    Why would you nerf a build that is only ranked "good" (decap druid)? please refer to metabattle.com before nerfing anything. The only classes and builds that should be nerfed are the ones ranked "Meta". Meta means over powered. "Good" means it's not very effective unless played very well. Please undo the nerfs on Decap druid. It is the only druid build and one of the few ranger builds viable in conquest.

    Were people actually complaining about decap druid or something??? If so that is hilarious, feel free to ignore them. Play decap druid yourself and see how not overpowered it is.

    Again, please undo these nerfs to decap druid. Nerf Dragon hunters instead.

    Ideally there would be no meta builds. Just all good and great, so that it comes down to skill and knowing your class and role. When there are meta builds, people flock to them because they are easier to win with. Which is cheap. I digress, as there will always be meta builds I reckon. But pls leave the "good" builds alone. They aren't the imbalance.

    imagine thinking metabattle is a good source for anything

    yah lets just pretend they don't have all the current meta builds. okay.

    At the time you made this thread, and before the last patch, fireweaver and core-support-guard were not listed as meta, despite being very much meta. So, no, metabattle does not always have all the meta builds.

  • ButterPeanut.9746ButterPeanut.9746 Member ✭✭✭

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:
    Why would you nerf a build that is only ranked "good" (decap druid)? please refer to metabattle.com before nerfing anything. The only classes and builds that should be nerfed are the ones ranked "Meta". Meta means over powered. "Good" means it's not very effective unless played very well. Please undo the nerfs on Decap druid. It is the only druid build and one of the few ranger builds viable in conquest.

    Were people actually complaining about decap druid or something??? If so that is hilarious, feel free to ignore them. Play decap druid yourself and see how not overpowered it is.

    Again, please undo these nerfs to decap druid. Nerf Dragon hunters instead.

    Ideally there would be no meta builds. Just all good and great, so that it comes down to skill and knowing your class and role. When there are meta builds, people flock to them because they are easier to win with. Which is cheap. I digress, as there will always be meta builds I reckon. But pls leave the "good" builds alone. They aren't the imbalance.

    imagine thinking metabattle is a good source for anything

    yah lets just pretend they don't have all the current meta builds. okay.

    Its not about having the meta builds. It's assuming that because a handful of builds listed on metabattle are actually "meta", that means that everything else listed on the site that isn't "meta" deserves to be prioritized less in regards to nerfs than the "meta" builds. That is the false assumption that you are making. Just because something is accurately listed as meta, doesn't mean that something else listed lower doesn't deserve nerfs.

    Take fire weaver for example, that is listed much lower than DH but it is much more prevalent in ATs. But you mentioned in other posts that it might not be "taking over ranked"...but then I'd argue that ranked is never meta anyway, so the entire ranking system is useless under that assumption.

  • ButterPeanut.9746ButterPeanut.9746 Member ✭✭✭

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:

    @ButterPeanut.9746 said:
    Here are the problems with the arguments being made.
    1) It assumes metabattle is a source of truth for what is strong and therefore deserves nerfs. This is a false assumption to make as many others have already described.
    2) It assumes that the only reason you nerf skills is due to it being meta. This is also a false assumption to make. For instance, decap builds could very well just be nerfed because they are insanely unfun to play against, regardless of their effectiveness. Effectiveness of a build is not the only reason to buff/nerf something.

    I don't think any one has been able to say that the builds listed as meta on metabattle aren't meta....cuz they are. So yes, it's a source of truth. Taking the nerfes as a target to decap druid, I feel the changes were completely unnecessary and low priority. We can all agree that DH and Rev needed more nerfing. However the changes to GS aren't bad any way. I've gotten over it hhaaha XD it was actually a buff if you wanna do damage. I still wish they did something more productive so there would be more variety in plat games, but meh.

    You feel they are low priority, but that is just your opinion.
    1) Maybe these changes were way quicker to make. So maybe it wasn't a choice between "nerf druid now vs nerf DH now". It was a "nerf druid now, or nerf neither of them now because we don't have time for DH" nerfs. You are assuming they are "prioritized over eachother" which isn't necessarily true.
    2) You are referring to metabattle and using the phrase "meta", but then also referring to ranked. Which one is it? Is metabattle the source for meta builds at the highest level? (i.e. monthly ATs), or is it for strong ranked builds? Is it both? Which ones get balancing priorities if it is both?
    3) You are also prioritizing effectiveness as the primary reason for balance, when one huge factor for balance in any game is "fun". Decap knockback builds are the absolute kings of the "unfun builds to play against" category. They very well could have prioritized those nerfs over something else that might be "more effective" simply because the druid was so unfun to play against.

    None of my points could end up being true, but I'm not claiming they are. I'm just claiming that we don't know, so we shouldn't' be assuming and suggesting a fan made site with questionable credibility at best as the holy grail for balance.