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Good Patch?!

Crozame.4098Crozame.4098 Member ✭✭✭
edited February 24, 2021 in PVP

Given the frequent balance patches, this patch is like 30 out of 100 at the very best.
1. Support core guardian has been out for quite a while and its healing output is quite insane. Yet only war support is nerfed. And the 100+th nerf on fullcounter?...
2. The war banner bug?
3. downstate and ress traits are not touched.
4. Many builds with low effort yet high reward are untouched: condi thief, condi soulbeast, condi trapper soulbeast.
5. The bug on rev build templates? Also been there for ages.

On another note: should ANET balance's focus on MAT or high level ranked? I think it might be better to balance based on high level ranked. Because the majority of games are ranked games. And in ranked only duo que is allowed. Uncoordinated games are very different from MAT games. Therefore, the meta on the metabattle might be slightly misguilded.

PS: tried rene SB. The seven shot reduces from 4k to 2.5k. So I am just wondering whether there are other undocumneted nerfs on rene~
PS2: I also knew support guard would not be touched., its just sad.

PS3: Can devs also say more about the matchmaking? Is it true that the total amount of game played also influence match making? If that is the case, please fix it, because you are punishing ppl playing the game, which is absurd. If not, then please make it clear that total amount of games is not included. Then what about the number of suspension? report received? Can you please clarify?

Comments

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crozame.4098 said:
    (...)
    On another note: should ANET balance's focus on MAT or high level ranked? I think it might be better to balance based on high level ranked. Because the majority of games are ranked games. And in ranked only duo que is allowed. Uncoordinated games are very different from MAT games. Therefore, the meta on the metabattle might be slightly misguilded.

    The majority of games are low ranked games. They should not be excluded either, maybe even considered first. When you kitten off your playerbase, nobody will care about the few good players. Saying something goes rampant in lower ranks does not make a build okay, when the people stop playing there.

    Agree about the first part, many things stayed untouched and at the same time, there were some poor decisions included.

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I miss trapper rune nerf, but overall good patch

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I knew core supp guard would be left untouched, but no trapper rune nerf was disappointing

    1. Bug seemed to be around for a while, but only now ppl learned to replicate

    2. Prolly wont be touched till expansion

    3. Agreed

    4. Game has been balanced for a dead pro scene for too long. I think this is one of the main reasons they loae player base. They are balancing a game for like 50 ppl and this is NA +EU, what could go wrong hum. And when newbies come to forums all they read is l2p l2p l2p, so they go back to lol probably when they want to pvp

  • Crozame.4098Crozame.4098 Member ✭✭✭

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:
    (...)
    On another note: should ANET balance's focus on MAT or high level ranked? I think it might be better to balance based on high level ranked. Because the majority of games are ranked games. And in ranked only duo que is allowed. Uncoordinated games are very different from MAT games. Therefore, the meta on the metabattle might be slightly misguilded.

    The majority of games are low ranked games. They should not be excluded either, maybe even considered first. When you kitten off your playerbase, nobody will care about the few good players. Saying something goes rampant in lower ranks does not make a build okay, when the people stop playing there.

    Agree about the first part, many things stayed untouched and at the same time, there were some poor decisions included.

    No, you cannot balance a game based on players do not have some level of knowledge. I am not saying 1800+ but p2 should be fine. MAT is just a different story.

  • Crozame.4098Crozame.4098 Member ✭✭✭

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    I knew core supp guard would be left untouched, but no trapper rune nerf was disappointing

    1. Bug seemed to be around for a while, but only now ppl learned to replicate

    2. Prolly wont be touched till expansion

    3. Agreed

    4. Game has been balanced for a dead pro scene for too long. I think this is one of the main reasons they loae player base. They are balancing a game for like 50 ppl and this is NA +EU, what could go wrong hum. And when newbies come to forums all they read is l2p l2p l2p, so they go back to lol probably when they want to pvp

    1. I knew that too. I am really not sure how anet addresses balances, if the majority of the weight is based on complaints on forum, then its really sad. If its based on MAT, then its also sad.
    2. I think you are not that current. Most ppl who cry l2p are gold or at most p1. If they truely balance towards mid p2 in EU or mid p1 in US, then might be better.
  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:
    (...)
    On another note: should ANET balance's focus on MAT or high level ranked? I think it might be better to balance based on high level ranked. Because the majority of games are ranked games. And in ranked only duo que is allowed. Uncoordinated games are very different from MAT games. Therefore, the meta on the metabattle might be slightly misguilded.

    The majority of games are low ranked games. They should not be excluded either, maybe even considered first. When you kitten off your playerbase, nobody will care about the few good players. Saying something goes rampant in lower ranks does not make a build okay, when the people stop playing there.

    Agree about the first part, many things stayed untouched and at the same time, there were some poor decisions included.

    No, you cannot balance a game based on players do not have some level of knowledge. I am not saying 1800+ but p2 should be fine. MAT is just a different story.

    I strongly disagree.

    When you allow all those toxic newbie-farmers to haress lower ranks nobody should be surprised there is a population problem.

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    I knew core supp guard would be left untouched, but no trapper rune nerf was disappointing

    1. Bug seemed to be around for a while, but only now ppl learned to replicate

    2. Prolly wont be touched till expansion

    3. Agreed

    4. Game has been balanced for a dead pro scene for too long. I think this is one of the main reasons they loae player base. They are balancing a game for like 50 ppl and this is NA +EU, what could go wrong hum. And when newbies come to forums all they read is l2p l2p l2p, so they go back to lol probably when they want to pvp

    1. I knew that too. I am really not sure how anet addresses balances, if the majority of the weight is based on complaints on forum, then its really sad. If its based on MAT, then its also sad.
    2. I think you are not that current. Most ppl who cry l2p are gold or at most p1. If they truely balance towards mid p2 in EU or mid p1 in US, then might be better.

    Right now it think they should focus on where most player base is, prolly 1250-1350, if they ppl are happy some of them will actually become better, and the others at least will keep playing, and even invite their friends.

  • Crozame.4098Crozame.4098 Member ✭✭✭

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:
    (...)
    On another note: should ANET balance's focus on MAT or high level ranked? I think it might be better to balance based on high level ranked. Because the majority of games are ranked games. And in ranked only duo que is allowed. Uncoordinated games are very different from MAT games. Therefore, the meta on the metabattle might be slightly misguilded.

    The majority of games are low ranked games. They should not be excluded either, maybe even considered first. When you kitten off your playerbase, nobody will care about the few good players. Saying something goes rampant in lower ranks does not make a build okay, when the people stop playing there.

    Agree about the first part, many things stayed untouched and at the same time, there were some poor decisions included.

    No, you cannot balance a game based on players do not have some level of knowledge. I am not saying 1800+ but p2 should be fine. MAT is just a different story.

    I strongly disagree.

    When you allow all those toxic newbie-farmers to haress lower ranks nobody should be surprised there is a population problem.

    I mean, this game is out for 8 years. Of course experince players are better than newbies. If you focus on balancing on lower tiers then the game will be more kitten, personal skill does not matter, and what matters are class and comp. This bad trend has been in place for a while. This is why, when I play a fresh new accout despite winning 1v1 and 1v2 at far, yet I still lost my second placement.

    This game has good pvp system. And if you balance according to gold1-2 players, then skill does not matter, then more and more ppl will quit. I realy dont understand your logic....

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:
    (...)
    On another note: should ANET balance's focus on MAT or high level ranked? I think it might be better to balance based on high level ranked. Because the majority of games are ranked games. And in ranked only duo que is allowed. Uncoordinated games are very different from MAT games. Therefore, the meta on the metabattle might be slightly misguilded.

    The majority of games are low ranked games. They should not be excluded either, maybe even considered first. When you kitten off your playerbase, nobody will care about the few good players. Saying something goes rampant in lower ranks does not make a build okay, when the people stop playing there.

    Agree about the first part, many things stayed untouched and at the same time, there were some poor decisions included.

    No, you cannot balance a game based on players do not have some level of knowledge. I am not saying 1800+ but p2 should be fine. MAT is just a different story.

    I strongly disagree.

    When you allow all those toxic newbie-farmers to haress lower ranks nobody should be surprised there is a population problem.

    I mean, this game is out for 8 years. Of course experince players are better than newbies. If you focus on balancing on lower tiers then the game will be more kitten, personal skill does not matter, and what matters are class and comp. This bad trend has been in place for a while. This is why, when I play a fresh new accout despite winning 1v1 and 1v2 at far, yet I still lost my second placement.

    This game has good pvp system. And if you balance according to gold1-2 players, then skill does not matter, then more and more ppl will quit. I realy dont understand your logic....

    I never said only balance for lower ranks. I said include every single rating range. And ATs, if you like.

    If you ignore the situation in lower ranks, why would anyone be surprised about low population?

  • Crozame.4098Crozame.4098 Member ✭✭✭

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:
    (...)
    On another note: should ANET balance's focus on MAT or high level ranked? I think it might be better to balance based on high level ranked. Because the majority of games are ranked games. And in ranked only duo que is allowed. Uncoordinated games are very different from MAT games. Therefore, the meta on the metabattle might be slightly misguilded.

    The majority of games are low ranked games. They should not be excluded either, maybe even considered first. When you kitten off your playerbase, nobody will care about the few good players. Saying something goes rampant in lower ranks does not make a build okay, when the people stop playing there.

    Agree about the first part, many things stayed untouched and at the same time, there were some poor decisions included.

    No, you cannot balance a game based on players do not have some level of knowledge. I am not saying 1800+ but p2 should be fine. MAT is just a different story.

    I strongly disagree.

    When you allow all those toxic newbie-farmers to haress lower ranks nobody should be surprised there is a population problem.

    I mean, this game is out for 8 years. Of course experince players are better than newbies. If you focus on balancing on lower tiers then the game will be more kitten, personal skill does not matter, and what matters are class and comp. This bad trend has been in place for a while. This is why, when I play a fresh new accout despite winning 1v1 and 1v2 at far, yet I still lost my second placement.

    This game has good pvp system. And if you balance according to gold1-2 players, then skill does not matter, then more and more ppl will quit. I realy dont understand your logic....

    I never said only balance for lower ranks. I said include every single rating range. And ATs, if you like.

    If you ignore the situation in lower ranks, why would anyone be surprised about low population?

    Lower ranks means : they dont care or they are new or they dont understand the game, or they are just very bad mechaincally for example, click all abilities by mouse. Tell me how to balance base on these players? This will only make the game worse.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2021

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:
    (...)
    On another note: should ANET balance's focus on MAT or high level ranked? I think it might be better to balance based on high level ranked. Because the majority of games are ranked games. And in ranked only duo que is allowed. Uncoordinated games are very different from MAT games. Therefore, the meta on the metabattle might be slightly misguilded.

    The majority of games are low ranked games. They should not be excluded either, maybe even considered first. When you kitten off your playerbase, nobody will care about the few good players. Saying something goes rampant in lower ranks does not make a build okay, when the people stop playing there.

    Agree about the first part, many things stayed untouched and at the same time, there were some poor decisions included.

    No, you cannot balance a game based on players do not have some level of knowledge. I am not saying 1800+ but p2 should be fine. MAT is just a different story.

    I strongly disagree.

    When you allow all those toxic newbie-farmers to haress lower ranks nobody should be surprised there is a population problem.

    I mean, this game is out for 8 years. Of course experince players are better than newbies. If you focus on balancing on lower tiers then the game will be more kitten, personal skill does not matter, and what matters are class and comp. This bad trend has been in place for a while. This is why, when I play a fresh new accout despite winning 1v1 and 1v2 at far, yet I still lost my second placement.

    This game has good pvp system. And if you balance according to gold1-2 players, then skill does not matter, then more and more ppl will quit. I realy dont understand your logic....

    I never said only balance for lower ranks. I said include every single rating range. And ATs, if you like.

    If you ignore the situation in lower ranks, why would anyone be surprised about low population?

    Lower ranks means : they dont care or they are new or they dont understand the game, or they are just very bad mechaincally for example, click all abilities by mouse. Tell me how to balance base on these players? This will only make the game worse.

    Yet 90% of the players are in those rating ranges. If you have toxic builds which leads to 50% of those to quit the game, nobody will be happy. People already complain about low population, we all - and Anet first - need to start considering why that is.

  • Crozame.4098Crozame.4098 Member ✭✭✭

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:
    (...)
    On another note: should ANET balance's focus on MAT or high level ranked? I think it might be better to balance based on high level ranked. Because the majority of games are ranked games. And in ranked only duo que is allowed. Uncoordinated games are very different from MAT games. Therefore, the meta on the metabattle might be slightly misguilded.

    The majority of games are low ranked games. They should not be excluded either, maybe even considered first. When you kitten off your playerbase, nobody will care about the few good players. Saying something goes rampant in lower ranks does not make a build okay, when the people stop playing there.

    Agree about the first part, many things stayed untouched and at the same time, there were some poor decisions included.

    No, you cannot balance a game based on players do not have some level of knowledge. I am not saying 1800+ but p2 should be fine. MAT is just a different story.

    I strongly disagree.

    When you allow all those toxic newbie-farmers to haress lower ranks nobody should be surprised there is a population problem.

    I mean, this game is out for 8 years. Of course experince players are better than newbies. If you focus on balancing on lower tiers then the game will be more kitten, personal skill does not matter, and what matters are class and comp. This bad trend has been in place for a while. This is why, when I play a fresh new accout despite winning 1v1 and 1v2 at far, yet I still lost my second placement.

    This game has good pvp system. And if you balance according to gold1-2 players, then skill does not matter, then more and more ppl will quit. I realy dont understand your logic....

    I never said only balance for lower ranks. I said include every single rating range. And ATs, if you like.

    If you ignore the situation in lower ranks, why would anyone be surprised about low population?

    Lower ranks means : they dont care or they are new or they dont understand the game, or they are just very bad mechaincally for example, click all abilities by mouse. Tell me how to balance base on these players? This will only make the game worse.

    Yet 90% of the players are in those rating ranges. If you have toxic builds which leads to 50% of those to quit the game, nobody will be happy. People already complain about low population, we all - and Anet first - need to start considering why that is.

    What do you mean by toxic builds? I think there will be more toxic builds if balance based on lower rank,.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2021

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:
    (...)
    On another note: should ANET balance's focus on MAT or high level ranked? I think it might be better to balance based on high level ranked. Because the majority of games are ranked games. And in ranked only duo que is allowed. Uncoordinated games are very different from MAT games. Therefore, the meta on the metabattle might be slightly misguilded.

    The majority of games are low ranked games. They should not be excluded either, maybe even considered first. When you kitten off your playerbase, nobody will care about the few good players. Saying something goes rampant in lower ranks does not make a build okay, when the people stop playing there.

    Agree about the first part, many things stayed untouched and at the same time, there were some poor decisions included.

    No, you cannot balance a game based on players do not have some level of knowledge. I am not saying 1800+ but p2 should be fine. MAT is just a different story.

    I strongly disagree.

    When you allow all those toxic newbie-farmers to haress lower ranks nobody should be surprised there is a population problem.

    I mean, this game is out for 8 years. Of course experince players are better than newbies. If you focus on balancing on lower tiers then the game will be more kitten, personal skill does not matter, and what matters are class and comp. This bad trend has been in place for a while. This is why, when I play a fresh new accout despite winning 1v1 and 1v2 at far, yet I still lost my second placement.

    This game has good pvp system. And if you balance according to gold1-2 players, then skill does not matter, then more and more ppl will quit. I realy dont understand your logic....

    I never said only balance for lower ranks. I said include every single rating range. And ATs, if you like.

    If you ignore the situation in lower ranks, why would anyone be surprised about low population?

    Lower ranks means : they dont care or they are new or they dont understand the game, or they are just very bad mechaincally for example, click all abilities by mouse. Tell me how to balance base on these players? This will only make the game worse.

    Yet 90% of the players are in those rating ranges. If you have toxic builds which leads to 50% of those to quit the game, nobody will be happy. People already complain about low population, we all - and Anet first - need to start considering why that is.

    What do you mean by toxic builds? I think there will be more toxic builds if balance based on lower rank,.

    All those one-shot builds before February like FA weaver and power mesmer.
    All those stealth-condi builds like condi thief or - currently - burn DH (which is strong even in higher brackets, but way less prevalent).
    All those AI builds like MM necros.

    Buffing because of lower ranks might be difficult to do, but nerfing needs to be done. Otherwise it would be like doing tax regulations only for the super rich. Surprise - the people are not happy with it. Or, in our case, we have low population.

  • TBH the patch per se is good, but such petty patches should happen weekly to be considered decent. One such patch in months is simply not enough. So, as always, pls go faster????

  • Crozame.4098Crozame.4098 Member ✭✭✭

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:
    (...)
    On another note: should ANET balance's focus on MAT or high level ranked? I think it might be better to balance based on high level ranked. Because the majority of games are ranked games. And in ranked only duo que is allowed. Uncoordinated games are very different from MAT games. Therefore, the meta on the metabattle might be slightly misguilded.

    The majority of games are low ranked games. They should not be excluded either, maybe even considered first. When you kitten off your playerbase, nobody will care about the few good players. Saying something goes rampant in lower ranks does not make a build okay, when the people stop playing there.

    Agree about the first part, many things stayed untouched and at the same time, there were some poor decisions included.

    No, you cannot balance a game based on players do not have some level of knowledge. I am not saying 1800+ but p2 should be fine. MAT is just a different story.

    I strongly disagree.

    When you allow all those toxic newbie-farmers to haress lower ranks nobody should be surprised there is a population problem.

    I mean, this game is out for 8 years. Of course experince players are better than newbies. If you focus on balancing on lower tiers then the game will be more kitten, personal skill does not matter, and what matters are class and comp. This bad trend has been in place for a while. This is why, when I play a fresh new accout despite winning 1v1 and 1v2 at far, yet I still lost my second placement.

    This game has good pvp system. And if you balance according to gold1-2 players, then skill does not matter, then more and more ppl will quit. I realy dont understand your logic....

    I never said only balance for lower ranks. I said include every single rating range. And ATs, if you like.

    If you ignore the situation in lower ranks, why would anyone be surprised about low population?

    Lower ranks means : they dont care or they are new or they dont understand the game, or they are just very bad mechaincally for example, click all abilities by mouse. Tell me how to balance base on these players? This will only make the game worse.

    Yet 90% of the players are in those rating ranges. If you have toxic builds which leads to 50% of those to quit the game, nobody will be happy. People already complain about low population, we all - and Anet first - need to start considering why that is.

    What do you mean by toxic builds? I think there will be more toxic builds if balance based on lower rank,.

    All those one-shot builds before February like FA weaver and power mesmer.
    All those stealth-condi builds like condi thief or - currently - burn DH (which is strong even in higher brackets, but way less prevalent).
    All those AI builds like MM necros.

    Buffing because of lower ranks might be difficult to do, but nerfing needs to be done. Otherwise it would be like doing tax regulations only for the super rich. Surprise - the people are not happy with it. Or, in our case, we have low population.

    based on my impression, high players do not play those builds. At least not the majority of them, The majority of them play other builds~ Brun DH should be gone in high rating matches. But trapper condi soulb~~ its also cancer~

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:
    (...)
    On another note: should ANET balance's focus on MAT or high level ranked? I think it might be better to balance based on high level ranked. Because the majority of games are ranked games. And in ranked only duo que is allowed. Uncoordinated games are very different from MAT games. Therefore, the meta on the metabattle might be slightly misguilded.

    The majority of games are low ranked games. They should not be excluded either, maybe even considered first. When you kitten off your playerbase, nobody will care about the few good players. Saying something goes rampant in lower ranks does not make a build okay, when the people stop playing there.

    Agree about the first part, many things stayed untouched and at the same time, there were some poor decisions included.

    No, you cannot balance a game based on players do not have some level of knowledge. I am not saying 1800+ but p2 should be fine. MAT is just a different story.

    I strongly disagree.

    When you allow all those toxic newbie-farmers to haress lower ranks nobody should be surprised there is a population problem.

    I mean, this game is out for 8 years. Of course experince players are better than newbies. If you focus on balancing on lower tiers then the game will be more kitten, personal skill does not matter, and what matters are class and comp. This bad trend has been in place for a while. This is why, when I play a fresh new accout despite winning 1v1 and 1v2 at far, yet I still lost my second placement.

    This game has good pvp system. And if you balance according to gold1-2 players, then skill does not matter, then more and more ppl will quit. I realy dont understand your logic....

    I never said only balance for lower ranks. I said include every single rating range. And ATs, if you like.

    If you ignore the situation in lower ranks, why would anyone be surprised about low population?

    Lower ranks means : they dont care or they are new or they dont understand the game, or they are just very bad mechaincally for example, click all abilities by mouse. Tell me how to balance base on these players? This will only make the game worse.

    Yet 90% of the players are in those rating ranges. If you have toxic builds which leads to 50% of those to quit the game, nobody will be happy. People already complain about low population, we all - and Anet first - need to start considering why that is.

    What do you mean by toxic builds? I think there will be more toxic builds if balance based on lower rank,.

    All those one-shot builds before February like FA weaver and power mesmer.
    All those stealth-condi builds like condi thief or - currently - burn DH (which is strong even in higher brackets, but way less prevalent).
    All those AI builds like MM necros.

    Buffing because of lower ranks might be difficult to do, but nerfing needs to be done. Otherwise it would be like doing tax regulations only for the super rich. Surprise - the people are not happy with it. Or, in our case, we have low population.

    based on my impression, high players do not play those builds. At least not the majority of them, The majority of them play other builds~ Brun DH should be gone in high rating matches. But trapper condi soulb~~ its also cancer~

    You are mostly right (burn DH sees some play up into highest ranks), but those are - or have been - haressing lower ranks and were complained about. :smile: Those builds might not be objectively OP and have their hard counters in higher ranked play, but when they make lower ranked people abandon PVP, nobody should be surprised about the low population situation we are having.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:
    (...)
    On another note: should ANET balance's focus on MAT or high level ranked? I think it might be better to balance based on high level ranked. Because the majority of games are ranked games. And in ranked only duo que is allowed. Uncoordinated games are very different from MAT games. Therefore, the meta on the metabattle might be slightly misguilded.

    The majority of games are low ranked games. They should not be excluded either, maybe even considered first. When you kitten off your playerbase, nobody will care about the few good players. Saying something goes rampant in lower ranks does not make a build okay, when the people stop playing there.

    Agree about the first part, many things stayed untouched and at the same time, there were some poor decisions included.

    No, you cannot balance a game based on players do not have some level of knowledge. I am not saying 1800+ but p2 should be fine. MAT is just a different story.

    I strongly disagree.

    When you allow all those toxic newbie-farmers to haress lower ranks nobody should be surprised there is a population problem.

    I mean, this game is out for 8 years. Of course experince players are better than newbies. If you focus on balancing on lower tiers then the game will be more kitten, personal skill does not matter, and what matters are class and comp. This bad trend has been in place for a while. This is why, when I play a fresh new accout despite winning 1v1 and 1v2 at far, yet I still lost my second placement.

    This game has good pvp system. And if you balance according to gold1-2 players, then skill does not matter, then more and more ppl will quit. I realy dont understand your logic....

    I never said only balance for lower ranks. I said include every single rating range. And ATs, if you like.

    If you ignore the situation in lower ranks, why would anyone be surprised about low population?

    Lower ranks means : they dont care or they are new or they dont understand the game, or they are just very bad mechaincally for example, click all abilities by mouse. Tell me how to balance base on these players? This will only make the game worse.

    Yet 90% of the players are in those rating ranges. If you have toxic builds which leads to 50% of those to quit the game, nobody will be happy. People already complain about low population, we all - and Anet first - need to start considering why that is.

    What do you mean by toxic builds? I think there will be more toxic builds if balance based on lower rank,.

    All those one-shot builds before February like FA weaver and power mesmer.
    All those stealth-condi builds like condi thief or - currently - burn DH (which is strong even in higher brackets, but way less prevalent).
    All those AI builds like MM necros.

    Buffing because of lower ranks might be difficult to do, but nerfing needs to be done. Otherwise it would be like doing tax regulations only for the super rich. Surprise - the people are not happy with it. Or, in our case, we have low population.

    The builds you mentioned are a result of design decisions, not of balancing. The reason why they work against low skill players is that these players lack the awareness of them. Having the awareness can be called skill and skill should decide the outcome of a fight.

    No balance patch will solve the issue that bronze division is another game than plat division. Classes would require a complete rework to equal that.

    The game went into this direction with the release of the first addon. Before that the overall complexity was that low that design reworks were realistic options. It's too late now and it gets worse with every new addon.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:
    (...)
    On another note: should ANET balance's focus on MAT or high level ranked? I think it might be better to balance based on high level ranked. Because the majority of games are ranked games. And in ranked only duo que is allowed. Uncoordinated games are very different from MAT games. Therefore, the meta on the metabattle might be slightly misguilded.

    The majority of games are low ranked games. They should not be excluded either, maybe even considered first. When you kitten off your playerbase, nobody will care about the few good players. Saying something goes rampant in lower ranks does not make a build okay, when the people stop playing there.

    Agree about the first part, many things stayed untouched and at the same time, there were some poor decisions included.

    No, you cannot balance a game based on players do not have some level of knowledge. I am not saying 1800+ but p2 should be fine. MAT is just a different story.

    I strongly disagree.

    When you allow all those toxic newbie-farmers to haress lower ranks nobody should be surprised there is a population problem.

    I mean, this game is out for 8 years. Of course experince players are better than newbies. If you focus on balancing on lower tiers then the game will be more kitten, personal skill does not matter, and what matters are class and comp. This bad trend has been in place for a while. This is why, when I play a fresh new accout despite winning 1v1 and 1v2 at far, yet I still lost my second placement.

    This game has good pvp system. And if you balance according to gold1-2 players, then skill does not matter, then more and more ppl will quit. I realy dont understand your logic....

    I never said only balance for lower ranks. I said include every single rating range. And ATs, if you like.

    If you ignore the situation in lower ranks, why would anyone be surprised about low population?

    Lower ranks means : they dont care or they are new or they dont understand the game, or they are just very bad mechaincally for example, click all abilities by mouse. Tell me how to balance base on these players? This will only make the game worse.

    Yet 90% of the players are in those rating ranges. If you have toxic builds which leads to 50% of those to quit the game, nobody will be happy. People already complain about low population, we all - and Anet first - need to start considering why that is.

    What do you mean by toxic builds? I think there will be more toxic builds if balance based on lower rank,.

    All those one-shot builds before February like FA weaver and power mesmer.
    All those stealth-condi builds like condi thief or - currently - burn DH (which is strong even in higher brackets, but way less prevalent).
    All those AI builds like MM necros.

    Buffing because of lower ranks might be difficult to do, but nerfing needs to be done. Otherwise it would be like doing tax regulations only for the super rich. Surprise - the people are not happy with it. Or, in our case, we have low population.

    The builds you mentioned are a result of design decisions, not of balancing. The reason why they work against low skill players is that these players lack the awareness of them. Having the awareness can be called skill and skill should decide the outcome of a fight.

    No balance patch will solve the issue that bronze division is another game than plat division. Classes would require a complete rework to equal that.

    The game went into this direction with the release of the first addon. Before that the overall complexity was that low that design reworks were realistic options. It's too late now and it gets worse with every new addon.

    That... doesn't really address my point though, does it? Of course lower ranked players play very different playstyles, builds and have very different experiences than higher ranks. Nobody would ever deny that, I hope.

  • Crozame.4098Crozame.4098 Member ✭✭✭

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:
    (...)
    On another note: should ANET balance's focus on MAT or high level ranked? I think it might be better to balance based on high level ranked. Because the majority of games are ranked games. And in ranked only duo que is allowed. Uncoordinated games are very different from MAT games. Therefore, the meta on the metabattle might be slightly misguilded.

    The majority of games are low ranked games. They should not be excluded either, maybe even considered first. When you kitten off your playerbase, nobody will care about the few good players. Saying something goes rampant in lower ranks does not make a build okay, when the people stop playing there.

    Agree about the first part, many things stayed untouched and at the same time, there were some poor decisions included.

    No, you cannot balance a game based on players do not have some level of knowledge. I am not saying 1800+ but p2 should be fine. MAT is just a different story.

    I strongly disagree.

    When you allow all those toxic newbie-farmers to haress lower ranks nobody should be surprised there is a population problem.

    I mean, this game is out for 8 years. Of course experince players are better than newbies. If you focus on balancing on lower tiers then the game will be more kitten, personal skill does not matter, and what matters are class and comp. This bad trend has been in place for a while. This is why, when I play a fresh new accout despite winning 1v1 and 1v2 at far, yet I still lost my second placement.

    This game has good pvp system. And if you balance according to gold1-2 players, then skill does not matter, then more and more ppl will quit. I realy dont understand your logic....

    I never said only balance for lower ranks. I said include every single rating range. And ATs, if you like.

    If you ignore the situation in lower ranks, why would anyone be surprised about low population?

    Lower ranks means : they dont care or they are new or they dont understand the game, or they are just very bad mechaincally for example, click all abilities by mouse. Tell me how to balance base on these players? This will only make the game worse.

    Yet 90% of the players are in those rating ranges. If you have toxic builds which leads to 50% of those to quit the game, nobody will be happy. People already complain about low population, we all - and Anet first - need to start considering why that is.

    What do you mean by toxic builds? I think there will be more toxic builds if balance based on lower rank,.

    All those one-shot builds before February like FA weaver and power mesmer.
    All those stealth-condi builds like condi thief or - currently - burn DH (which is strong even in higher brackets, but way less prevalent).
    All those AI builds like MM necros.

    Buffing because of lower ranks might be difficult to do, but nerfing needs to be done. Otherwise it would be like doing tax regulations only for the super rich. Surprise - the people are not happy with it. Or, in our case, we have low population.

    based on my impression, high players do not play those builds. At least not the majority of them, The majority of them play other builds~ Brun DH should be gone in high rating matches. But trapper condi soulb~~ its also cancer~

    You are mostly right (burn DH sees some play up into highest ranks), but those are - or have been - haressing lower ranks and were complained about. :smile: Those builds might not be objectively OP and have their hard counters in higher ranked play, but when they make lower ranked people abandon PVP, nobody should be surprised about the low population situation we are having.

    You really cant balance based on golds. Because another important part of pvp is map rotation, and know how to kite around. These has nothing to do with balance.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2021

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:
    (...)
    On another note: should ANET balance's focus on MAT or high level ranked? I think it might be better to balance based on high level ranked. Because the majority of games are ranked games. And in ranked only duo que is allowed. Uncoordinated games are very different from MAT games. Therefore, the meta on the metabattle might be slightly misguilded.

    The majority of games are low ranked games. They should not be excluded either, maybe even considered first. When you kitten off your playerbase, nobody will care about the few good players. Saying something goes rampant in lower ranks does not make a build okay, when the people stop playing there.

    Agree about the first part, many things stayed untouched and at the same time, there were some poor decisions included.

    No, you cannot balance a game based on players do not have some level of knowledge. I am not saying 1800+ but p2 should be fine. MAT is just a different story.

    I strongly disagree.

    When you allow all those toxic newbie-farmers to haress lower ranks nobody should be surprised there is a population problem.

    I mean, this game is out for 8 years. Of course experince players are better than newbies. If you focus on balancing on lower tiers then the game will be more kitten, personal skill does not matter, and what matters are class and comp. This bad trend has been in place for a while. This is why, when I play a fresh new accout despite winning 1v1 and 1v2 at far, yet I still lost my second placement.

    This game has good pvp system. And if you balance according to gold1-2 players, then skill does not matter, then more and more ppl will quit. I realy dont understand your logic....

    I never said only balance for lower ranks. I said include every single rating range. And ATs, if you like.

    If you ignore the situation in lower ranks, why would anyone be surprised about low population?

    Lower ranks means : they dont care or they are new or they dont understand the game, or they are just very bad mechaincally for example, click all abilities by mouse. Tell me how to balance base on these players? This will only make the game worse.

    Yet 90% of the players are in those rating ranges. If you have toxic builds which leads to 50% of those to quit the game, nobody will be happy. People already complain about low population, we all - and Anet first - need to start considering why that is.

    What do you mean by toxic builds? I think there will be more toxic builds if balance based on lower rank,.

    All those one-shot builds before February like FA weaver and power mesmer.
    All those stealth-condi builds like condi thief or - currently - burn DH (which is strong even in higher brackets, but way less prevalent).
    All those AI builds like MM necros.

    Buffing because of lower ranks might be difficult to do, but nerfing needs to be done. Otherwise it would be like doing tax regulations only for the super rich. Surprise - the people are not happy with it. Or, in our case, we have low population.

    based on my impression, high players do not play those builds. At least not the majority of them, The majority of them play other builds~ Brun DH should be gone in high rating matches. But trapper condi soulb~~ its also cancer~

    You are mostly right (burn DH sees some play up into highest ranks), but those are - or have been - haressing lower ranks and were complained about. :smile: Those builds might not be objectively OP and have their hard counters in higher ranked play, but when they make lower ranked people abandon PVP, nobody should be surprised about the low population situation we are having.

    You really cant balance based on golds. Because another important part of pvp is map rotation, and know how to kite around. These has nothing to do with balance.

    You can. And it has.

    You should consider (not as your only source!) it for reasons mentioned above. I am not going to repeat myself. Just think about where this low population comes from.

  • Crozame.4098Crozame.4098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2021

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:
    (...)
    On another note: should ANET balance's focus on MAT or high level ranked? I think it might be better to balance based on high level ranked. Because the majority of games are ranked games. And in ranked only duo que is allowed. Uncoordinated games are very different from MAT games. Therefore, the meta on the metabattle might be slightly misguilded.

    The majority of games are low ranked games. They should not be excluded either, maybe even considered first. When you kitten off your playerbase, nobody will care about the few good players. Saying something goes rampant in lower ranks does not make a build okay, when the people stop playing there.

    Agree about the first part, many things stayed untouched and at the same time, there were some poor decisions included.

    No, you cannot balance a game based on players do not have some level of knowledge. I am not saying 1800+ but p2 should be fine. MAT is just a different story.

    I strongly disagree.

    When you allow all those toxic newbie-farmers to haress lower ranks nobody should be surprised there is a population problem.

    I mean, this game is out for 8 years. Of course experince players are better than newbies. If you focus on balancing on lower tiers then the game will be more kitten, personal skill does not matter, and what matters are class and comp. This bad trend has been in place for a while. This is why, when I play a fresh new accout despite winning 1v1 and 1v2 at far, yet I still lost my second placement.

    This game has good pvp system. And if you balance according to gold1-2 players, then skill does not matter, then more and more ppl will quit. I realy dont understand your logic....

    I never said only balance for lower ranks. I said include every single rating range. And ATs, if you like.

    If you ignore the situation in lower ranks, why would anyone be surprised about low population?

    Lower ranks means : they dont care or they are new or they dont understand the game, or they are just very bad mechaincally for example, click all abilities by mouse. Tell me how to balance base on these players? This will only make the game worse.

    Yet 90% of the players are in those rating ranges. If you have toxic builds which leads to 50% of those to quit the game, nobody will be happy. People already complain about low population, we all - and Anet first - need to start considering why that is.

    What do you mean by toxic builds? I think there will be more toxic builds if balance based on lower rank,.

    All those one-shot builds before February like FA weaver and power mesmer.
    All those stealth-condi builds like condi thief or - currently - burn DH (which is strong even in higher brackets, but way less prevalent).
    All those AI builds like MM necros.

    Buffing because of lower ranks might be difficult to do, but nerfing needs to be done. Otherwise it would be like doing tax regulations only for the super rich. Surprise - the people are not happy with it. Or, in our case, we have low population.

    based on my impression, high players do not play those builds. At least not the majority of them, The majority of them play other builds~ Brun DH should be gone in high rating matches. But trapper condi soulb~~ its also cancer~

    You are mostly right (burn DH sees some play up into highest ranks), but those are - or have been - haressing lower ranks and were complained about. :smile: Those builds might not be objectively OP and have their hard counters in higher ranked play, but when they make lower ranked people abandon PVP, nobody should be surprised about the low population situation we are having.

    You really cant balance based on golds. Because another important part of pvp is map rotation, and know how to kite around. These has nothing to do with balance.

    You can. And it has.

    You should consider (not as your only source!) it for reasons mentioned above. I am not going to repeat myself. Just think about where this low population comes from.

    .... i am pretty confident that you are wrong, but do not want to waste more time on this.

    ok..Maybe one last note:

    You can. And it has.

    In which patch does dumping down the game acutally benefitted game? The Thief adjustment of angle to chagne the distance of dagger 2; the nerf on portal etc... These dumping down changes do not help the game.

    Think about 2-3 years ago. How many low effort high reward builds you see? There is no condi druid, condi thief, trapper DH, flamethrower Scrapper. All these kitten builds emerge after the half done patch.

    Further dump things down, then there is no incentive to get good, because it does not matter, and the pvp will be truely dead. It's already sad to see p1 p2 games, ppl do not know how to rotate, how to kite, and tunnel vision on mid and close....

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:
    (...)
    On another note: should ANET balance's focus on MAT or high level ranked? I think it might be better to balance based on high level ranked. Because the majority of games are ranked games. And in ranked only duo que is allowed. Uncoordinated games are very different from MAT games. Therefore, the meta on the metabattle might be slightly misguilded.

    The majority of games are low ranked games. They should not be excluded either, maybe even considered first. When you kitten off your playerbase, nobody will care about the few good players. Saying something goes rampant in lower ranks does not make a build okay, when the people stop playing there.

    Agree about the first part, many things stayed untouched and at the same time, there were some poor decisions included.

    No, you cannot balance a game based on players do not have some level of knowledge. I am not saying 1800+ but p2 should be fine. MAT is just a different story.

    I strongly disagree.

    When you allow all those toxic newbie-farmers to haress lower ranks nobody should be surprised there is a population problem.

    I mean, this game is out for 8 years. Of course experince players are better than newbies. If you focus on balancing on lower tiers then the game will be more kitten, personal skill does not matter, and what matters are class and comp. This bad trend has been in place for a while. This is why, when I play a fresh new accout despite winning 1v1 and 1v2 at far, yet I still lost my second placement.

    This game has good pvp system. And if you balance according to gold1-2 players, then skill does not matter, then more and more ppl will quit. I realy dont understand your logic....

    I never said only balance for lower ranks. I said include every single rating range. And ATs, if you like.

    If you ignore the situation in lower ranks, why would anyone be surprised about low population?

    Lower ranks means : they dont care or they are new or they dont understand the game, or they are just very bad mechaincally for example, click all abilities by mouse. Tell me how to balance base on these players? This will only make the game worse.

    Yet 90% of the players are in those rating ranges. If you have toxic builds which leads to 50% of those to quit the game, nobody will be happy. People already complain about low population, we all - and Anet first - need to start considering why that is.

    What do you mean by toxic builds? I think there will be more toxic builds if balance based on lower rank,.

    All those one-shot builds before February like FA weaver and power mesmer.
    All those stealth-condi builds like condi thief or - currently - burn DH (which is strong even in higher brackets, but way less prevalent).
    All those AI builds like MM necros.

    Buffing because of lower ranks might be difficult to do, but nerfing needs to be done. Otherwise it would be like doing tax regulations only for the super rich. Surprise - the people are not happy with it. Or, in our case, we have low population.

    based on my impression, high players do not play those builds. At least not the majority of them, The majority of them play other builds~ Brun DH should be gone in high rating matches. But trapper condi soulb~~ its also cancer~

    You are mostly right (burn DH sees some play up into highest ranks), but those are - or have been - haressing lower ranks and were complained about. :smile: Those builds might not be objectively OP and have their hard counters in higher ranked play, but when they make lower ranked people abandon PVP, nobody should be surprised about the low population situation we are having.

    You really cant balance based on golds. Because another important part of pvp is map rotation, and know how to kite around. These has nothing to do with balance.

    You can. And it has.

    You should consider (not as your only source!) it for reasons mentioned above. I am not going to repeat myself. Just think about where this low population comes from.

    .... i am pretty confident that you are wrong, but do not want to waste more time on this.

    ok..Maybe one last note:

    You can. And it has.

    In which patch does dumping down the game acutally benefitted game? The Thief adjustment of angle to chagne the distance of dagger 2; the nerf on portal etc... These dumping down changes do not help the game.

    Think about 2-3 years ago. How many low effort high reward builds you see? There is no condi druid, condi thief, trapper DH, flamethrower Scrapper. All these kitten builds emerge after the half done patch.

    Further dump things down, then there is no incentive to get good, because it does not matter, and the pvp will be truely dead. It's already sad to see p1 p2 games, ppl do not know how to rotate, how to kite, and tunnel vision on mid and close....

    kitten, I can't stop.

    1. it is not about dumbing down the game.

    2. Nerfing toxic builds in low ranks has zero effect on the higher ranked players. Those builds simply don't work there.

    3. We need to stop only regarding the top 5% of the players for balancing. If the other 95% have no fun in PVP, we will keep our population problem. That is a major issue.

    4. Stop the chauvinism. 95% are more important than 5%. If any sports loses its playerbase, it loses all relevance. Why should Anet only cater the top 100 players, when they are the only ones left? Why should they invest any balancing effort into those 100 players, when there are 100.000 in PVE?

  • Marxx.5021Marxx.5021 Member ✭✭✭

    There has never been a better time to create a bot. Good patch for bots.

  • razaelll.8324razaelll.8324 Member ✭✭
    edited February 25, 2021

    Hello ,

    I am new player, playing from 3 weeks. Currently at 1150 rating. I wish to share my opinion on the discussion. In my opinion pvp should be balanced around high skill players , because skill should be the main factor of who wins and who looses a game. I am playing mmo rpgs from 17 years, and GW2 has unique combat design in which skill really matters. The game cannot be balanced around low rated ppl like me which dont know what they are doing. If a person is not willing to put effort in learning and improving thats not a problem of the game designers. If a person is mainly loosing and dont put eny effort in understanding why he is loosing then he deserves his low rating.

    I am also a developer and i am pretty sure that the game designers dont balance the game around top 100 players and they consider much wider range of players participating in pvp. The pvp have low population because of many factors in my opinion and "toxic" builds are very small portion of them, becuase if you really want to counter this builds you can and what is even better you dont need to farm levels and gear in order to jump on a different character to do that.

    One of the main factors for low population in rated pvp in my opinion is that there is only 1 mode which also depends very much on your team skills not only on your personal skills and i believe that is much larger factor than "toxic" builds another biger factor in my opinion is boting and hacking.

    The main problem i have as a new player in pvp is to learn to recognize the build which my enemy have and how to play aganst it and that takes time, also reaction time is something which i am working on. To get good in any competative pvp you need time , practise, knoledge and patiance....

    For me and from what i have seen so far GW2 has the most fun and skill based pvp in fantasy mmorpg out on the marked and i hope it would continue be that way

    This is my 2 cents.

    Have a great day and be healthy!

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2021

    i don't think people understand what they're saying when they say anet should balance for the top 100 players. if anet did that, the top 100 would create the most borkenested of all builds and not even a full team (if all goldies) could stop them. balance for g3/ p1 and let players own skill take them higher.

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Crozame.4098Crozame.4098 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    i don't think people understand what they're saying when they say anet should balance for the top 100 players. if anet did that, the top 100 would create the most borkenested of all builds and not even a full team (if all goldies) could stop them. balance for g3/ p1 and let players own skill take them higher.

    Not top 100, but at least use statistics from at least high p1 or p2 (high g3 or p1 in NA.).

  • Crozame.4098Crozame.4098 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    i don't think people understand what they're saying when they say anet should balance for the top 100 players. if anet did that, the top 100 would create the most borkenested of all builds and not even a full team (if all goldies) could stop them. balance for g3/ p1 and let players own skill take them higher.

    Also, those builds will be available, op builds are always made public. Then get good and use it too~

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:
    (...)
    On another note: should ANET balance's focus on MAT or high level ranked? I think it might be better to balance based on high level ranked. Because the majority of games are ranked games. And in ranked only duo que is allowed. Uncoordinated games are very different from MAT games. Therefore, the meta on the metabattle might be slightly misguilded.

    The majority of games are low ranked games. They should not be excluded either, maybe even considered first. When you kitten off your playerbase, nobody will care about the few good players. Saying something goes rampant in lower ranks does not make a build okay, when the people stop playing there.

    Agree about the first part, many things stayed untouched and at the same time, there were some poor decisions included.

    No, you cannot balance a game based on players do not have some level of knowledge. I am not saying 1800+ but p2 should be fine. MAT is just a different story.

    I strongly disagree.

    When you allow all those toxic newbie-farmers to haress lower ranks nobody should be surprised there is a population problem.

    I mean, this game is out for 8 years. Of course experince players are better than newbies. If you focus on balancing on lower tiers then the game will be more kitten, personal skill does not matter, and what matters are class and comp. This bad trend has been in place for a while. This is why, when I play a fresh new accout despite winning 1v1 and 1v2 at far, yet I still lost my second placement.

    This game has good pvp system. And if you balance according to gold1-2 players, then skill does not matter, then more and more ppl will quit. I realy dont understand your logic....

    I never said only balance for lower ranks. I said include every single rating range. And ATs, if you like.

    If you ignore the situation in lower ranks, why would anyone be surprised about low population?

    Lower ranks means : they dont care or they are new or they dont understand the game, or they are just very bad mechaincally for example, click all abilities by mouse. Tell me how to balance base on these players? This will only make the game worse.

    Yet 90% of the players are in those rating ranges. If you have toxic builds which leads to 50% of those to quit the game, nobody will be happy. People already complain about low population, we all - and Anet first - need to start considering why that is.

    What do you mean by toxic builds? I think there will be more toxic builds if balance based on lower rank,.

    All those one-shot builds before February like FA weaver and power mesmer.
    All those stealth-condi builds like condi thief or - currently - burn DH (which is strong even in higher brackets, but way less prevalent).
    All those AI builds like MM necros.

    Buffing because of lower ranks might be difficult to do, but nerfing needs to be done. Otherwise it would be like doing tax regulations only for the super rich. Surprise - the people are not happy with it. Or, in our case, we have low population.

    based on my impression, high players do not play those builds. At least not the majority of them, The majority of them play other builds~ Brun DH should be gone in high rating matches. But trapper condi soulb~~ its also cancer~

    You are mostly right (burn DH sees some play up into highest ranks), but those are - or have been - haressing lower ranks and were complained about. :smile: Those builds might not be objectively OP and have their hard counters in higher ranked play, but when they make lower ranked people abandon PVP, nobody should be surprised about the low population situation we are having.

    You really cant balance based on golds. Because another important part of pvp is map rotation, and know how to kite around. These has nothing to do with balance.

    You can. And it has.

    You should consider (not as your only source!) it for reasons mentioned above. I am not going to repeat myself. Just think about where this low population comes from.

    .... i am pretty confident that you are wrong, but do not want to waste more time on this.

    ok..Maybe one last note:

    You can. And it has.

    In which patch does dumping down the game acutally benefitted game? The Thief adjustment of angle to chagne the distance of dagger 2; the nerf on portal etc... These dumping down changes do not help the game.

    Think about 2-3 years ago. How many low effort high reward builds you see? There is no condi druid, condi thief, trapper DH, flamethrower Scrapper. All these kitten builds emerge after the half done patch.

    Further dump things down, then there is no incentive to get good, because it does not matter, and the pvp will be truely dead. It's already sad to see p1 p2 games, ppl do not know how to rotate, how to kite, and tunnel vision on mid and close....

    kitten, I can't stop.

    1. it is not about dumbing down the game.

    2. Nerfing toxic builds in low ranks has zero effect on the higher ranked players. Those builds simply don't work there.

    3. We need to stop only regarding the top 5% of the players for balancing. If the other 95% have no fun in PVP, we will keep our population problem. That is a major issue.

    4. Stop the chauvinism. 95% are more important than 5%. If any sports loses its playerbase, it loses all relevance. Why should Anet only cater the top 100 players, when they are the only ones left? Why should they invest any balancing effort into those 100 players, when there are 100.000 in PVE?

    You remove those builds and you'll teach new players that in GW2 you can do well in PvP while facetanking everything . They won't ever feel the need to dodge anything or be aware of particular builds

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • @Crozame.4098 said:
    snips

    i'm worried if anet solely balanced for the top 100 or whatever, that builds would arise where a players skill exponentially raises the skill ceiling of that build compared to a regular build. maybe its just a kneejerk reaction tho.

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Sansar.1302Sansar.1302 Member ✭✭✭

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:
    (...)
    On another note: should ANET balance's focus on MAT or high level ranked? I think it might be better to balance based on high level ranked. Because the majority of games are ranked games. And in ranked only duo que is allowed. Uncoordinated games are very different from MAT games. Therefore, the meta on the metabattle might be slightly misguilded.

    The majority of games are low ranked games. They should not be excluded either, maybe even considered first. When you kitten off your playerbase, nobody will care about the few good players. Saying something goes rampant in lower ranks does not make a build okay, when the people stop playing there.

    Agree about the first part, many things stayed untouched and at the same time, there were some poor decisions included.

    No, you cannot balance a game based on players do not have some level of knowledge. I am not saying 1800+ but p2 should be fine. MAT is just a different story.

    I strongly disagree.

    When you allow all those toxic newbie-farmers to haress lower ranks nobody should be surprised there is a population problem.

    I mean, this game is out for 8 years. Of course experince players are better than newbies. If you focus on balancing on lower tiers then the game will be more kitten, personal skill does not matter, and what matters are class and comp. This bad trend has been in place for a while. This is why, when I play a fresh new accout despite winning 1v1 and 1v2 at far, yet I still lost my second placement.

    This game has good pvp system. And if you balance according to gold1-2 players, then skill does not matter, then more and more ppl will quit. I realy dont understand your logic....

    I never said only balance for lower ranks. I said include every single rating range. And ATs, if you like.

    If you ignore the situation in lower ranks, why would anyone be surprised about low population?

    Lower ranks means : they dont care or they are new or they dont understand the game, or they are just very bad mechaincally for example, click all abilities by mouse. Tell me how to balance base on these players? This will only make the game worse.

    Yet 90% of the players are in those rating ranges. If you have toxic builds which leads to 50% of those to quit the game, nobody will be happy. People already complain about low population, we all - and Anet first - need to start considering why that is.

    What do you mean by toxic builds? I think there will be more toxic builds if balance based on lower rank,.

    All those one-shot builds before February like FA weaver and power mesmer.
    All those stealth-condi builds like condi thief or - currently - burn DH (which is strong even in higher brackets, but way less prevalent).
    All those AI builds like MM necros.

    Buffing because of lower ranks might be difficult to do, but nerfing needs to be done. Otherwise it would be like doing tax regulations only for the super rich. Surprise - the people are not happy with it. Or, in our case, we have low population.

    based on my impression, high players do not play those builds. At least not the majority of them, The majority of them play other builds~ Brun DH should be gone in high rating matches. But trapper condi soulb~~ its also cancer~

    You are mostly right (burn DH sees some play up into highest ranks), but those are - or have been - haressing lower ranks and were complained about. :smile: Those builds might not be objectively OP and have their hard counters in higher ranked play, but when they make lower ranked people abandon PVP, nobody should be surprised about the low population situation we are having.

    You really cant balance based on golds. Because another important part of pvp is map rotation, and know how to kite around. These has nothing to do with balance.

    You can. And it has.

    You should consider (not as your only source!) it for reasons mentioned above. I am not going to repeat myself. Just think about where this low population comes from.

    .... i am pretty confident that you are wrong, but do not want to waste more time on this.

    ok..Maybe one last note:

    You can. And it has.

    In which patch does dumping down the game acutally benefitted game? The Thief adjustment of angle to chagne the distance of dagger 2; the nerf on portal etc... These dumping down changes do not help the game.

    Think about 2-3 years ago. How many low effort high reward builds you see? There is no condi druid, condi thief, trapper DH, flamethrower Scrapper. All these kitten builds emerge after the half done patch.

    Further dump things down, then there is no incentive to get good, because it does not matter, and the pvp will be truely dead. It's already sad to see p1 p2 games, ppl do not know how to rotate, how to kite, and tunnel vision on mid and close....

    kitten, I can't stop.

    1. it is not about dumbing down the game.

    2. Nerfing toxic builds in low ranks has zero effect on the higher ranked players. Those builds simply don't work there.

    3. We need to stop only regarding the top 5% of the players for balancing. If the other 95% have no fun in PVP, we will keep our population problem. That is a major issue.

    4. Stop the chauvinism. 95% are more important than 5%. If any sports loses its playerbase, it loses all relevance. Why should Anet only cater the top 100 players, when they are the only ones left? Why should they invest any balancing effort into those 100 players, when there are 100.000 in PVE?

    It is not toxic builds that make newbies quit ( it is mixing hig skill and low skill players that make it toxic )
    As my rank fell quite brutal due to a crash problem when i reatched low silver i could be top dmg with a full suport build and got called hacker etc.
    i think one dev once said that a good player had 5x to10x the damage output than the average player.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:
    (...)
    On another note: should ANET balance's focus on MAT or high level ranked? I think it might be better to balance based on high level ranked. Because the majority of games are ranked games. And in ranked only duo que is allowed. Uncoordinated games are very different from MAT games. Therefore, the meta on the metabattle might be slightly misguilded.

    The majority of games are low ranked games. They should not be excluded either, maybe even considered first. When you kitten off your playerbase, nobody will care about the few good players. Saying something goes rampant in lower ranks does not make a build okay, when the people stop playing there.

    Agree about the first part, many things stayed untouched and at the same time, there were some poor decisions included.

    No, you cannot balance a game based on players do not have some level of knowledge. I am not saying 1800+ but p2 should be fine. MAT is just a different story.

    I strongly disagree.

    When you allow all those toxic newbie-farmers to haress lower ranks nobody should be surprised there is a population problem.

    I mean, this game is out for 8 years. Of course experince players are better than newbies. If you focus on balancing on lower tiers then the game will be more kitten, personal skill does not matter, and what matters are class and comp. This bad trend has been in place for a while. This is why, when I play a fresh new accout despite winning 1v1 and 1v2 at far, yet I still lost my second placement.

    This game has good pvp system. And if you balance according to gold1-2 players, then skill does not matter, then more and more ppl will quit. I realy dont understand your logic....

    I never said only balance for lower ranks. I said include every single rating range. And ATs, if you like.

    If you ignore the situation in lower ranks, why would anyone be surprised about low population?

    Lower ranks means : they dont care or they are new or they dont understand the game, or they are just very bad mechaincally for example, click all abilities by mouse. Tell me how to balance base on these players? This will only make the game worse.

    Yet 90% of the players are in those rating ranges. If you have toxic builds which leads to 50% of those to quit the game, nobody will be happy. People already complain about low population, we all - and Anet first - need to start considering why that is.

    What do you mean by toxic builds? I think there will be more toxic builds if balance based on lower rank,.

    All those one-shot builds before February like FA weaver and power mesmer.
    All those stealth-condi builds like condi thief or - currently - burn DH (which is strong even in higher brackets, but way less prevalent).
    All those AI builds like MM necros.

    Buffing because of lower ranks might be difficult to do, but nerfing needs to be done. Otherwise it would be like doing tax regulations only for the super rich. Surprise - the people are not happy with it. Or, in our case, we have low population.

    based on my impression, high players do not play those builds. At least not the majority of them, The majority of them play other builds~ Brun DH should be gone in high rating matches. But trapper condi soulb~~ its also cancer~

    You are mostly right (burn DH sees some play up into highest ranks), but those are - or have been - haressing lower ranks and were complained about. :smile: Those builds might not be objectively OP and have their hard counters in higher ranked play, but when they make lower ranked people abandon PVP, nobody should be surprised about the low population situation we are having.

    You really cant balance based on golds. Because another important part of pvp is map rotation, and know how to kite around. These has nothing to do with balance.

    You can. And it has.

    You should consider (not as your only source!) it for reasons mentioned above. I am not going to repeat myself. Just think about where this low population comes from.

    .... i am pretty confident that you are wrong, but do not want to waste more time on this.

    ok..Maybe one last note:

    You can. And it has.

    In which patch does dumping down the game acutally benefitted game? The Thief adjustment of angle to chagne the distance of dagger 2; the nerf on portal etc... These dumping down changes do not help the game.

    Think about 2-3 years ago. How many low effort high reward builds you see? There is no condi druid, condi thief, trapper DH, flamethrower Scrapper. All these kitten builds emerge after the half done patch.

    Further dump things down, then there is no incentive to get good, because it does not matter, and the pvp will be truely dead. It's already sad to see p1 p2 games, ppl do not know how to rotate, how to kite, and tunnel vision on mid and close....

    kitten, I can't stop.

    1. it is not about dumbing down the game.

    2. Nerfing toxic builds in low ranks has zero effect on the higher ranked players. Those builds simply don't work there.

    3. We need to stop only regarding the top 5% of the players for balancing. If the other 95% have no fun in PVP, we will keep our population problem. That is a major issue.

    4. Stop the chauvinism. 95% are more important than 5%. If any sports loses its playerbase, it loses all relevance. Why should Anet only cater the top 100 players, when they are the only ones left? Why should they invest any balancing effort into those 100 players, when there are 100.000 in PVE?

    You remove those builds and you'll teach new players that in GW2 you can do well in PvP while facetanking everything . They won't ever feel the need to dodge anything or be aware of particular builds

    I only get toxic whispers when playing meme oneshot builds in unranked, farming obviously low rated players.

    That makes me part of the problem, but it shows there is something wrong. We need to encourage new players, not discourage them with stupid builds. When there are 10 threads of low rated players complaining about one build, there is a hundred times more out there who lose interest in PVP because of that build.

    Do not buff builds that don't work with low skill ceiling, that might make those problematic in higher ratings. But don't keep telling newbies to just "git gut and dodge" when many people have problems with specific builds.

    And I repeat myself: Do not only balance for average skill. But take them into consideration. I know, I know, that would require actual effort and not just listening to a few who basically tell you what to do (often with poor argumentation and insight). But we're talking about theoretical aims here.

  • aymnad.9023aymnad.9023 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2021

    @Sansar.1302 said:
    i think one dev once said that a good player had 5x to10x the damage output than the average player.

    When talking about raids, story and so on. So that is in PvE.

  • Sansar.1302Sansar.1302 Member ✭✭✭

    @aymnad.9023 said:

    @Sansar.1302 said:
    i think one dev once said that a good player had 5x to10x the damage output than the average player.

    When talking about raids, story and so on. So that is in PvE.

    yet it tells how mutch skill does in Gw2 ,( pve skill and pvp skill is wildly different but still.... )

  • aymnad.9023aymnad.9023 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2021

    @Sansar.1302 said:

    @aymnad.9023 said:

    @Sansar.1302 said:
    i think one dev once said that a good player had 5x to10x the damage output than the average player.

    When talking about raids, story and so on. So that is in PvE.

    yet it tells how mutch skill does in Gw2 ,( pve skill and pvp skill is wildly different but still.... )

    1) How is that different from any other game? How many competitive games do you know without “disparity between average players and hardcore players”?
    2) Even if this is taken from PVE context it does not tell us anything about a specific PvE game mode (raid, open world exploration, story /lore enthusiasts, fractals) since everybody can set a different goal.

    That sentence had nothing to do with pvp, will never tell us anything about pvp, is even incomplete in a PvE context and has nothing to do with skill.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2021

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:
    snips

    i'm worried if anet solely balanced for the top 100 or whatever, that builds would arise where a players skill exponentially raises the skill ceiling of that build compared to a regular build. maybe its just a kneejerk reaction tho.

    ANet does balance for the top100.

    That's why lich sees no nerf (noob farm skill), why mirage has only one dodge left (still viable, but now a high skill floor spec), why burn guard is still alive (noob farm build), why trapper rune still exists (you can easily track a player placing traps in stealth and you can dodge the traps, if you have a brain) ... so much about the current biggest community complaints.

    And they are doing the right thing. You can flush your game down the toilet, if you start balancing for people that don't even understand your game. Just look at the latest example: the dragon's maw fix, almost no one understood the big impact of that bugfix.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @aymnad.9023 said:

    @Sansar.1302 said:
    i think one dev once said that a good player had 5x to10x the damage output than the average player.

    When talking about raids, story and so on. So that is in PvE.

    well, you can get over 50% off class dps just by holding down auto-attack on most classes in raids.
    and the fact that most people are incapable to doing 80% less dmg than I would have by sipping piña colada and holding m1 button should show how kitten bad the average peep is.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2021

    @razaelll.8324 said:
    Hello ,

    I am new player, playing from 3 weeks. Currently at 1150 rating. I wish to share my opinion on the discussion. In my opinion pvp should be balanced around high skill players , because skill should be the main factor of who wins and who looses a game. I am playing mmo rpgs from 17 years, and GW2 has unique combat design in which skill really matters. The game cannot be balanced around low rated ppl like me which dont know what they are doing. If a person is not willing to put effort in learning and improving thats not a problem of the game designers. If a person is mainly loosing and dont put eny effort in understanding why he is loosing then he deserves his low rating.

    And on that day there were words of truth that bombarded the forum like an avalanche coming off a mountain.

  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @razaelll.8324 said:
    Hello ,

    I am new player, playing from 3 weeks. Currently at 1150 rating. I wish to share my opinion on the discussion. In my opinion pvp should be balanced around high skill players , because skill should be the main factor of who wins and who looses a game. I am playing mmo rpgs from 17 years, and GW2 has unique combat design in which skill really matters. The game cannot be balanced around low rated ppl like me which dont know what they are doing. If a person is not willing to put effort in learning and improving thats not a problem of the game designers. If a person is mainly loosing and dont put eny effort in understanding why he is loosing then he deserves his low rating.

    And on that day there were words of truth that bombarded the forum like an avalanche coming off a mountain.

    I am not sure do you agree or are you surcastic, will be happy if you can clarify that. Thanks in advance.

    Best regards and be healthy!

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    Lazy half-kittened patch with nerfs to things that have never been a problem anyway, Also, it would be an offence to proper game design to even call this lazy tendency to reduce / remove / decrease numbers / skills / effects --- 'a balance'.

    Also, nerf theef.

    AND BUFF ELE.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • aymnad.9023aymnad.9023 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2021

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @aymnad.9023 said:

    @Sansar.1302 said:
    i think one dev once said that a good player had 5x to10x the damage output than the average player.

    When talking about raids, story and so on. So that is in PvE.

    well, you can get over 50% off class dps just by holding down auto-attack on most classes in raids.
    and the fact that most people are incapable to doing 80% less dmg than I would have by sipping piña colada and holding m1 button should show how kitten bad the average peep is.

    If you do read my second answer you know why I do not agree with you. You are using an extreme case as a comparison. Try what you wrote with the “average raider” (or whatever that means).
    I am trying to find an analogy. PvE is like a board game that everybody can use for different games. Since I do not know many board games the closest thing I can think of would be a deck of cards. Some people use it to play poker, solitaire or whatever. And you are telling me the solitaire player that goes into poker is really bad… That does not make any sense since both are so different.

    Big edit :
    Also for my background : I mostly played PvP and story / exploration for years. In PvE I had been using the citadel of Flame armor until they added the second legendary tier (shiny armor) in PvP (and I play almost since the start). I was not playing raids and I was not playing fractals before. I only started to look at rotations when reaching T4 in fractals (so >8months after starting to get a few leg pieces). I only started looking at the impact of runes after multiple raiding and fractal months. And finally I started doing it on multiple professions / builds with a guild 2-4days on any boss every week while still playing PvP. I perfectly understand anyone who just come into those modes to discover, just do a few once a week, progress little by little. I still keep the citadel armor in my bag even if I do not use it anymore (I just like having it and remembering how I liked / played the game). I have been one the people targeted by Anet when they added the leg armor in PvP. It slowly “got me into PvE”. I also have seen people who play in sPvP / WvW come into fractals, people who just play open Word coming into sPvP or raids. I know how they (under)perform and perfectly understand their mindset / frustrations / challenges and so on.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @razaelll.8324 said:
    Hello ,

    I am new player, playing from 3 weeks. Currently at 1150 rating. I wish to share my opinion on the discussion. In my opinion pvp should be balanced around high skill players , because skill should be the main factor of who wins and who looses a game. I am playing mmo rpgs from 17 years, and GW2 has unique combat design in which skill really matters. The game cannot be balanced around low rated ppl like me which dont know what they are doing. If a person is not willing to put effort in learning and improving thats not a problem of the game designers. If a person is mainly loosing and dont put eny effort in understanding why he is loosing then he deserves his low rating.

    And on that day there were words of truth that bombarded the forum like an avalanche coming off a mountain.

    I am not sure do you agree or are you surcastic, will be happy if you can clarify that. Thanks in advance.

    Best regards and be healthy!

    What I mean is that what you said is true.

  • @KrHome.1920 said:
    ANet does balance for the top100.

    you might be right and they changed their approach, but in the past they balanced for middle tiers. will be interesting to see how this plays out.

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • @Crozame.4098 said:
    Given the frequent balance patches, this patch is like 30 out of 100 at the very best.
    And the 100+th nerf on fullcounter?...

    in general i agree with your statement in basically all points except full counter but maybe i see this case in a too tight view
    Warrior cc chain is insane... the amount of stunbreaks are not enough to escape from the cc chain of a good spellbreaker. Not sure if full counter plays big role in that chain but its definitely in it but it could also be one of those dagger skills that are escalating and need to be nerfed.