Everyone seems to be on easy mode. Sitting in objectives, only tagging up on primetime, avoiding enemy objectives.

Yes we know the balance heavily favors the defender in fights, especially pug ones, but lets just have a good old smackdown, won't we? And commanders with experience, tag up if you see enemy blob!

Kindly explain to me, what do you actually accomplish in winning such an easy fight?

Nobody is tagging up because commanding atm is extremely difficult and (on our server at least) barely anybody joins open squads anymore.

Expanding on that,Guilds are gigantic these days as people aren't finding the action they want in PUG squads, so they join a guild.

PUG Commanding is difficult because;

• not enough people join PUG squads because they get the action they want from their guild, and,
• with the significantly smaller group (AND lack of guild discipline*) they will get annihilated.

So PUG commanding doesn't happen - commanders have given up on that, and so have the potential PUGs.

What you get now is an intense period of guild gameplay at primetime followed by vast periods with barely anybody playing on at least one of the servers in the matchup, if not all of them.

BlameGuilds.

*guild discipline: Guild commanders have more disciplined players because they can threaten them with expulsion.

The balance has never favored defenders. In fact, every advantage defenders has had, except guild aura buffs, has been removed or nerfed into oblivion. The time to enter a T3 tower was 45 seconds, people complained that was too long and too hard. So, they nerf walls and make the flip time 25 seconds. Yes, a T3 tower can be flipped in under 30 seconds from siege drop to lord dead when the attacker has an IQ. Doesn't hurt they almost always log an alt and troll the invulnerable before the attack begins. The only true advantage the game has is whether or not you have the most people. And, as players have proven time and time again, they are rarely willing to fight unless they know they will win. The only exception (in NA) seems to be TC, who will throw bodies in PVE builds at blobs trying desperately to maintain the structure for honor sake. That is why some servers, especially with high KDR, hide inside fully fortified, siege capped SMC until they know they are the only blob on the map, then they leave the comfort of the SMC aura to take a tower they have been trebbing for 12 straight hours. Every relink is the same. Instantly, people flock to a link to make a bunch of megalinks that rarely can lose a fight, because they know the enemy has 1/4th their numbers and the attacker has the advantage.

Players have shown they want free/easy loot and ranks, and will do anything including using third party tools, alts, and spending real money to transfer to stack every 8 weeks to do it.

@Threather.9354 said:Everyone seems to be on easy mode. Sitting in objectives, only tagging up on primetime, avoiding enemy objectives.

Yes we know the balance heavily favors the defender in fights, especially pug ones, but lets just have a good old smackdown, won't we? And commanders with experience, tag up if you see enemy blob!

Kindly explain to me, what do you actually accomplish in winning such an easy fight?

The game mode has never favored defenders and favors them even less now. The only defensive advantage a team has is small scale fights around objectives that can take advantage of the free stats and guards, but with blobs it doesn't matter.

A proper zerg can flip a fully upgraded T3 objective like its nothing, without any chance of retaliation.

When you see a successful defense, its because some of the players were smart and flipped the camps and put down supply traps so the enemy couldn't keep building siege, as that's what prevents objectives from being taken, and aids in them being retaken.

The whole meta shifting towards blobs camping fully upgraded objectives like a safe zone has nothing to do with them actually being safe. Even a few PUGs can treb down a castle wall and attack the gate. But if the enemy has a number's advantage taking it will be impossible, and that's not defense--that's just playing the zerg game. It'd go just as well in open field as it would behind a fortification.

You want them to come out and fight but you'd just end up getting steamrolled anyway. The game favors blobbing and has for a long time due to many nerfs to what small groups can do against any kind of offense, regardless of coordination.

And if anything, attackers have the defensive advantage on enemy lands. An upgraded keep is alot more defensible when its your enemy's keep, because they can't mobilise an effective offense without a waypoint or supplies.

Well they can, if they try really hard. But its far from easy.

@Hannelore.8153 said:

@Threather.9354 said:Everyone seems to be on easy mode. Sitting in objectives, only tagging up on primetime, avoiding enemy objectives.

Yes we know the balance heavily favors the defender in fights, especially pug ones, but lets just have a good old smackdown, won't we? And commanders with experience, tag up if you see enemy blob!

Kindly explain to me, what do you actually accomplish in winning such an easy fight?

Your commanders win fights defending while easily losing fights attacking: The balance doesn't favor attackers, else youd see guilds trying to flip t3 stuff but they stay far from them if there is any enemy that can beat them on the map.

isn't even kdR farming at that point, i'm quite sure the biggest part gets done openfield.

guilds are just far too small normally, cannot take t3 + siege + 60 players with at least 200 points per existing stat with 25-30 max. that's pretty much not possible.

guilds that look huge are just a guild group on opentag which drewa a pugzerg, therefore is kinda openblob.

@Ubi.4136 said:players have proven time and time again, they are rarely willing to fight unless they know they will win. The only exception (in NA) seems to be TC, who will throw bodies in PVE builds at blobs trying desperately to maintain the structure for honor sake.

Bless the heroic lemmingsMany songs will your descendants sing of your deeds

Yes, nothing favors defenders which is why smallscale died.

If you put down 6 catas of course you can flip any tower in a short amount of time and most keeps, especially when you run with 20-30 people. That has nothing to do with defender advantage and everything to do with blob size. If you have an equal defender blob inside the objective, you're going to lose--because you most likely are going to be fighting siege as well as defender buffs.

Open field fights have to truly be open field, which is tough outside of desert as if your 'open field' is in range of a claimed objective, the defenders are still getting that advantage.

Warclaw also makes it very easy to disengage as defender into a structure or stall for time.

@Gotejjeken.1267 said:Yes, nothing favors defenders which is why smallscale died.

If you put down 6 catas of course you can flip any tower in a short amount of time and most keeps, especially when you run with 20-30 people. That has nothing to do with defender advantage and everything to do with blob size. If you have an equal defender blob inside the objective, you're going to lose--because you most likely are going to be fighting siege as well as defender buffs.

Yep, because that equal defender blob are going to sit on mortars and arrow carts instead of coming out to fight. Or, if they do come out to fight open field, try to get people to follow them back into siege range so that the attackers can be sieged.

This is why I wp from a tower if there are only a few of us and there is a map blob attacking. We can't even defend a t3 tower. You can't do enough damage to the attackers - they just sustain through everything you can throw at them.

The situation that the OP is describing is where the sides have a similar number of players, but one is inside the building and the other is attacking, I think.

So what you have is a bunch of guys going afk and falling asleep while catapulting and another group who have an aura buff and a stationary enemy.

It seems that the defenders should win that scenario. I call it defending by attacking.

@"Svarty.8019" said:The situation that the OP is describing is where the sides have a similar number of players, but one is inside the building and the other is attacking, I think.

This.

I find it hilarious how people are claiming that at even numbers defenders are not advantaged.

This isn't about a blob knocking at the door and 3 people not being able to defend. At even numbers and skill, defenders will win due to advantages. There is not even any discussion about it.

Now was this advantage bigger in the past, which allowed defending groups of half the size of the attacking force or significantly weaker player skill to defend an objective? Sure. That still did not make it balanced back then. It merely allowed for easier defending than now.

As to the topic at hand, multiple reasons for why less and less commanders tag up. The 2 big ones I would mention:

• as the player base shrinks, similar skilled and similar minded players band together. Often in guilds. Why tag up when you can run as guild squad and on voice?
• the notion of "I play what I want when I want" has crept it's way into WvW from PvE, especially among newer players. Just not that fun running that thief, ranger, mesmer squad into the brick wall that is the enemy blob full of guardians, engineers and necromancers (pick appropriate elite specializations as desired, it matters not).

@Cyninja.2954 said:This isn't about a blob knocking at the door and 3 people not being able to defend. At even numbers and skill, defenders will win due to advantages. There is not even any discussion about it.Skill and numbers are never even. Because thats not how WvW works. Defenders always fight twice the enemies if we assume the 3 sides have perfectly equal numbers. And on top of that having the advantage doesnt automatically mean a win because thats not how GW2 combat works.

Wait I wasnt allowed to discuss it. Damn, forgot so fast.

pug squads are worthless anyways on most servers. they act like they're a squad but will cloud at first sign of conflict. if they actually push and lose, the commander will most times worry about losing numbers due to morale so he might try a few more times then hug siege and defend. at which point its pointless to attack so they're ignored, at which point an agreement has been made to ignore each other and ktrain.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:This isn't about a blob knocking at the door and 3 people not being able to defend. At even numbers and skill, defenders will win due to advantages. There is not even any discussion about it.Skill and numbers are

never

even. Because thats not how WvW works. Defenders always fight

twice

the enemies if we assume the 3 sides have perfectly equal numbers. And on top of that having the advantage doesnt automatically mean a win because thats not how GW2 combat works.

True, and a more skilled, less manned defending force can hold an objective. So does a less skilled, more manned force.

Thus the advantage is always with the defender. Now is this advantage sufficient? That's a very subjective interpretation. That's not what is being claimed though. The claim is that defenders are not advantaged, which is simply untrue. Even more in times where both sides might have map queues.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:The situation that the OP is describing is where the sides have a similar number of players, but one is inside the building and the other is attacking, I think.

It's fine Ri Ba. It's fine. Just get better, so you won't get farmed.

@Sleepwalker.1398 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:The situation that the OP is describing is where the sides have a similar number of players, but one is inside the building and the other is attacking, I think.

You assume that the third server will hit your structure. Who says they won't go for the attackers structure? They are just as committed to taking the objective as you are defending it. Both sides can disengage, in fact the defending side with range and numbers advantage from siege (1 player per siege can keep multiple in fight) is at an advantage IF they decide to disengage or get to snack off disengaging attackers.

Again, defenders advantage.

Really don't get this. It's almost as though half the people in this thread don't even play WvW actively and are just guessing. Stuff like this happens constantly on fuller servers on EU. Both having to go defend as well as cancel a siege because an important objective is being assaulted. Maybe this is a NA thing with less population? I don't know.

Following changes are necessary:

Reduce passive defending:

• Nerf claim buff to ground (especially movement speed), even replace whole claim buff with non-combat buffs like siege taking less supply to build and out of combat movement speed
• Reduce gliding speed in combat or remove ability to glide in combat. Remove this toxic playstyle, there used to be massive negatives standing on the walls midcombat with pure caster builds like staff ele (and now dps guard). And now you could be fully wipe defenders that lose fight or escape on the wall, deservably.
• Increase upgrade times of keeps and castles by 100% and 300% respectively while reducing incoming supply. No logic in every objective requiring same amount.
• Fix packed dolyaks that they don't count towards 2 for the upgrade. But make them carry 4x supply to make up for the incoming supply nerfs.

Increase active defending:

• Remove shield gens ability to block siege but instead make it pulse like 30% damage reduction that also affects siege
• Increase siege damage to siege some because siege health got doubled vs siege for no reason in condi/crit change.
• Increase health of upgraded walls/gates (was nerfed for no reason to make up for defensive powercreep by other things introduced with HoT)
• Increase supply cost of guild golems to 80

So overall powershift in so that attackers take longer to breach outer and inner walls but if they manage to do, the fighting ground is somewhat equal outside defender having supreme stealth engages, ability to use keep portals and cloud in the lord room. You will maybe take the keep in 1 time out of 6, like in the past, not just get onepushed by equally strong group. And big nerf to clouding playstyle because reworking claim buff will mean one needs permaswift.

And please, do not think these changes are unfair, they are for good of WvW and will affect enemy servers as well...

@Threather.9354 said:Following changes are necessary:

Reduce passive defending:

• Nerf claim buff to ground (especially movement speed), even replace whole claim buff with non-combat buffs like siege taking less supply to build and out of combat movement speed
• Reduce gliding speed in combat or remove ability to glide in combat. Remove this toxic playstyle, there used to be massive negatives standing on the walls midcombat with pure caster builds like staff ele (and now dps guard). And now you could be fully wipe defenders that lose fight or escape on the wall, deservably.
• Increase upgrade times of keeps and castles by 100% and 300% respectively while reducing incoming supply. No logic in every objective requiring same amount.
• Fix packed dolyaks that they don't count towards 2 for the upgrade. But make them carry 4x supply to make up for the incoming supply nerfs.

Increase active defending:

• Remove shield gens ability to block siege but instead make it pulse like 30% damage reduction that also affects siege
• Increase siege damage to siege some because siege health got doubled vs siege for no reason in condi/crit change.
• Increase health of upgraded walls/gates (was nerfed for no reason to make up for defensive powercreep by other things introduced with HoT)
• Increase supply cost of guild golems to 80

So overall powershift in so that attackers take longer to breach outer and inner walls but if they manage to do, the fighting ground is somewhat equal outside defender having supreme stealth engages, ability to use keep portals and cloud in the lord room. You will maybe take the keep in 1 time out of 6, like in the past, not just get onepushed by equally strong group. And big nerf to clouding playstyle because reworking claim buff will mean one needs permaswift.

And please, do not think these changes are unfair, they are for good of WvW and will affect enemy servers as well...

Great post, completely agree.These posts would certainly change the way fights around objectives would occur.Reverting the wall nerf would be a giant leap forwards.I feel that pulls might need nerfing, too - or some way to access to stability for defenders, since standing ANYWHERE on a wall gets you pulled nowadays (see the Twitch video where Iraneo is surprised by how far an engineer pulls him).

I love the dolyak suggestion, I'd also add this (though it doesn't involve the OP's subject);Armoured Dolyaks should be permanently invulnerable.

@Ubi.4136 said:The balance has never favored defenders. In fact, every advantage defenders has had, except guild aura buffs, has been removed or nerfed into oblivion. The time to enter a T3 tower was 45 seconds, people complained that was too long and too hard. So, they nerf walls and make the flip time 25 seconds. Yes, a T3 tower can be flipped in under 30 seconds from siege drop to lord dead when the attacker has an IQ. Doesn't hurt they almost always log an alt and troll the invulnerable before the attack begins. The only true advantage the game has is whether or not you have the most people. And, as players have proven time and time again, they are rarely willing to fight unless they know they will win. The only exception (in NA) seems to be TC, who will throw bodies in PVE builds at blobs trying desperately to maintain the structure for honor sake. That is why some servers, especially with high KDR, hide inside fully fortified, siege capped SMC until they know they are the only blob on the map, then they leave the comfort of the SMC aura to take a tower they have been trebbing for 12 straight hours. Every relink is the same. Instantly, people flock to a link to make a bunch of megalinks that rarely can lose a fight, because they know the enemy has 1/4th their numbers and the attacker has the advantage.

Players have shown they want free/easy loot and ranks, and will do anything including using third party tools, alts, and spending real money to transfer to stack every 8 weeks to do it.

And sadly, since profit is involved, no way are any game-improving changes going to happen (e.g. reversal of the nerfs, BETTER defenses, anything that might threaten blobs, etc). Maybe they would see their way clear to at least give participation for seige construction, being killed in combat, and a few other things.

If it weren't for being able to quickly generate resources and other rewards from the tracks, I wouldn't even play in WvW because it certainly isnt any fun, and is so completely pointless generally, and for the server without realm bonuses (like the old gathering strike boost, etc).

@Threather.9354 said:Following changes are necessary:

Reduce passive defending:

• Nerf claim buff to ground (especially movement speed), even replace whole claim buff with non-combat buffs like siege taking less supply to build and out of combat movement speed
• Reduce gliding speed in combat or remove ability to glide in combat. Remove this toxic playstyle, there used to be massive negatives standing on the walls midcombat with pure caster builds like staff ele (and now dps guard). And now you could be fully wipe defenders that lose fight or escape on the wall, deservably.
• Increase upgrade times of keeps and castles by 100% and 300% respectively while reducing incoming supply. No logic in every objective requiring same amount.
• Fix packed dolyaks that they don't count towards 2 for the upgrade. But make them carry 4x supply to make up for the incoming supply nerfs.

Increase active defending:

• Remove shield gens ability to block siege but instead make it pulse like 30% damage reduction that also affects siege
• Increase siege damage to siege some because siege health got doubled vs siege for no reason in condi/crit change.
• Increase health of upgraded walls/gates (was nerfed for no reason to make up for defensive powercreep by other things introduced with HoT)
• Increase supply cost of guild golems to 80

So overall powershift in so that attackers take longer to breach outer and inner walls but if they manage to do, the fighting ground is somewhat equal outside defender having supreme stealth engages, ability to use keep portals and cloud in the lord room. You will maybe take the keep in 1 time out of 6, like in the past, not just get onepushed by equally strong group. And big nerf to clouding playstyle because reworking claim buff will mean one needs permaswift.

And please, do not think these changes are unfair, they are for good of WvW and will affect enemy servers as well...

This is exactly the opposite of what is needed. Making stuff actually hard to take is better - but add some bonuses too. Eliminate the horrifically vulnerable designs of the fortifications would be nice too (seriously - anyone who designs games like this should be required to study the history of true castle battles). Farms especially need some updates. No objectives should be soloable. Make siege immune to hand weapons, etc. Quit exposing cannons and other things to easy pickings - make them truly useful - and DEADLY. There needs to be a strong counters to blobs, and artillery fire should be one of them - just as it is IRL. Eliminating the ability to treb keeps from other keeps is also a must.

@Svarty.8019 said:

@Threather.9354 said:

Following changes are necessary:

Reduce passive defending:

• Nerf claim buff to ground (especially movement speed), even replace whole claim buff with non-combat buffs like siege taking less supply to build and out of combat movement speed
• Reduce gliding speed in combat or remove ability to glide in combat. Remove this toxic playstyle, there used to be massive negatives standing on the walls midcombat with pure caster builds like staff ele (and now dps guard). And now you could be fully wipe defenders that lose fight or escape on the wall, deservably.
• Increase upgrade times of keeps and castles by 100% and 300% respectively while reducing incoming supply. No logic in every objective requiring same amount.
• Fix packed dolyaks that they don't count towards 2 for the upgrade. But make them carry 4x supply to make up for the incoming supply nerfs.

Increase active defending:

• Remove shield gens ability to block siege but instead make it pulse like 30% damage reduction that also affects siege
• Increase siege damage to siege some because siege health got doubled vs siege for no reason in condi/crit change.
• Increase health of upgraded walls/gates (was nerfed for no reason to make up for defensive powercreep by other things introduced with HoT)
• Increase supply cost of guild golems to 80

So overall powershift in so that attackers take longer to breach outer and inner walls but if they manage to do, the fighting ground is somewhat equal outside defender having supreme stealth engages, ability to use keep portals and cloud in the lord room. You will maybe take the keep in 1 time out of 6, like in the past, not just get onepushed by equally strong group. And big nerf to clouding playstyle because reworking claim buff will mean one needs permaswift.

And please, do not think these changes are unfair, they are for good of WvW and will affect enemy servers as well...

Re pulls, I hear you. The pulls are incredible now, especially when combined with distance AoEs. Burning oil is pretty useless, and it's hard to put an arrow cart anywhere that you can't be pulled off. Not only have I been pulled while standing on the staircase behind a wall, but I've also been pulled outside a tower via the entrance portal.

@Spook.5847 said:

@"Threather.9354" said:

Following changes are necessary:

Reduce passive defending:

• Nerf claim buff to ground (especially movement speed), even replace whole claim buff with non-combat buffs like siege taking less supply to build and out of combat movement speed
• Reduce gliding speed in combat or remove ability to glide in combat. Remove this toxic playstyle, there used to be massive negatives standing on the walls midcombat with pure caster builds like staff ele (and now dps guard). And now you could be fully wipe defenders that lose fight or escape on the wall, deservably.
• Increase upgrade times of keeps and castles by 100% and 300% respectively while reducing incoming supply. No logic in every objective requiring same amount.
• Fix packed dolyaks that they don't count towards 2 for the upgrade. But make them carry 4x supply to make up for the incoming supply nerfs.

Increase active defending:

• Remove shield gens ability to block siege but instead make it pulse like 30% damage reduction that also affects siege
• Increase siege damage to siege some because siege health got doubled vs siege for no reason in condi/crit change.
• Increase health of upgraded walls/gates (was nerfed for no reason to make up for defensive powercreep by other things introduced with HoT)
• Increase supply cost of guild golems to 80

So overall powershift in so that attackers take longer to breach outer and inner walls but if they manage to do, the fighting ground is somewhat equal outside defender having supreme stealth engages, ability to use keep portals and cloud in the lord room. You will maybe take the keep in 1 time out of 6, like in the past, not just get onepushed by equally strong group. And big nerf to clouding playstyle because reworking claim buff will mean one needs permaswift.

And please, do not think these changes are unfair, they are for good of WvW and will affect enemy servers as well...

It's funny how you say it's "the opposite of what is needed" and then go on to make other positive suggestions that could be ADDITIONALLY altered. There's no need for the hard "no" at the start of your post.

The hard no is why we get no updates ever. The devs think we don't agree on what we want.

They don't have to go nuts to bring back defending. ACs could go back to hitting more targets instead of 15. Manning oil could give you "Determined" buff, like being in spawn (you can still be pulled, so you'd probably need perma-stability, too, while manning it). These easy, small changes could have a great impact AND shake things up again.

@Svarty.8019 said:

@Spook.5847 said:

@"Threather.9354" said:

Following changes are necessary:

Reduce passive defending:

• Nerf claim buff to ground (especially movement speed), even replace whole claim buff with non-combat buffs like siege taking less supply to build and out of combat movement speed
• Reduce gliding speed in combat or remove ability to glide in combat. Remove this toxic playstyle, there used to be massive negatives standing on the walls midcombat with pure caster builds like staff ele (and now dps guard). And now you could be fully wipe defenders that lose fight or escape on the wall, deservably.
• Increase upgrade times of keeps and castles by 100% and 300% respectively while reducing incoming supply. No logic in every objective requiring same amount.
• Fix packed dolyaks that they don't count towards 2 for the upgrade. But make them carry 4x supply to make up for the incoming supply nerfs.

Increase active defending:

• Remove shield gens ability to block siege but instead make it pulse like 30% damage reduction that also affects siege
• Increase siege damage to siege some because siege health got doubled vs siege for no reason in condi/crit change.
• Increase health of upgraded walls/gates (was nerfed for no reason to make up for defensive powercreep by other things introduced with HoT)
• Increase supply cost of guild golems to 80

So overall powershift in so that attackers take longer to breach outer and inner walls but if they manage to do, the fighting ground is somewhat equal outside defender having supreme stealth engages, ability to use keep portals and cloud in the lord room. You will maybe take the keep in 1 time out of 6, like in the past, not just get onepushed by equally strong group. And big nerf to clouding playstyle because reworking claim buff will mean one needs permaswift.

And please, do not think these changes are unfair, they are for good of WvW and will affect enemy servers as well...

Small changes will not cure what is basically terrible design overall. It is also clear that the policy is to encourage blob warfare mechanics/tactics/power, which I strongly disagree with. But, we keep hearing about how this company cannot do things due to not being able to read and write their own code, so i guess the argument is pretty academic in the face of that admission (or excuse, however one wishes to interpret it). We have some new games dealing with siege on the horizon now - maybe those will do a better job.

@Spook.5847 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:

@Spook.5847 said:

@"Threather.9354" said:

Following changes are necessary:

Reduce passive defending:

• Nerf claim buff to ground (especially movement speed), even replace whole claim buff with non-combat buffs like siege taking less supply to build and out of combat movement speed
• Reduce gliding speed in combat or remove ability to glide in combat. Remove this toxic playstyle, there used to be massive negatives standing on the walls midcombat with pure caster builds like staff ele (and now dps guard). And now you could be fully wipe defenders that lose fight or escape on the wall, deservably.
• Increase upgrade times of keeps and castles by 100% and 300% respectively while reducing incoming supply. No logic in every objective requiring same amount.
• Fix packed dolyaks that they don't count towards 2 for the upgrade. But make them carry 4x supply to make up for the incoming supply nerfs.

Increase active defending:

• Remove shield gens ability to block siege but instead make it pulse like 30% damage reduction that also affects siege
• Increase siege damage to siege some because siege health got doubled vs siege for no reason in condi/crit change.
• Increase health of upgraded walls/gates (was nerfed for no reason to make up for defensive powercreep by other things introduced with HoT)
• Increase supply cost of guild golems to 80

So overall powershift in so that attackers take longer to breach outer and inner walls but if they manage to do, the fighting ground is somewhat equal outside defender having supreme stealth engages, ability to use keep portals and cloud in the lord room. You will maybe take the keep in 1 time out of 6, like in the past, not just get onepushed by equally strong group. And big nerf to clouding playstyle because reworking claim buff will mean one needs permaswift.

And please, do not think these changes are unfair, they are for good of WvW and will affect enemy servers as well...

I concur with much of that, but I won't give my opinion because... well.. you know.. the walls have ears and all that,