Thief Dead?

I mainly just want to see what everyone's opinion is regarding thief in its current state and to see the arguments both against and for its viability/non viability.Just to declare my own view, it still has massive potential within an arranged team if played well enough and in a specific comp, however in the current meta it doesn't really seem to belong too well, regarding ranked it just comes down to if the thief is simply good, and will get some value or if they are bad and will basically just feed, which only a handful of thieves can seem to get good value within ranked.

Not yet, let's hope it dies for good in a not too far future.

Please nerf teeeef!!! Thanks!

no its not dead, its still in a good place, not great but not bad which is actually really good in the world of gw2. It can still decap effectively and with sustain slowly been lowered(hopefully that's the direction their going in) teef will be great at +1'ing again.I really hope in the future though the revert some of the ini costs on skills and nerf them in other ways as increasing the cost is just lazy and not only nerfs thief but makes it more clunky to use which should never be the goal. I believe this on every class, a good example is mesmer losing a dodge. Mesmer definitely had far to much access to evades/evade frames and definitely needed to be nerfed in that regard but instead of removing a dodge making Mirage feel clunky they should have instead nerfed some of Mirage other means of evade while leaving its access to both dodges. Before Mirage players chime in saying they were fine before lol no they definitely were not.

concept of sb5 is broken, so old thief is dead. New thief is not dead.

@lare.5129 said:concept of sb5 is broken, so old thief is dead. New thief is not dead.

Could you explain this please? I dont fully understand what you mean.

Teef dead pls nerf

Performance of Thief is bad after 8 init shortbow 5.

Honestly that change needs to be reverted.

It is exactly as you described - if you have an arranged team with players that have a good understanding of pvp/conquest, then often thief is the mvp to enable generating points via nodes and also to kill a foe +1ingIf you play solo que with pugs.... it is big gambling - it can be that you land in a team of players with good understanding of conquest and their classes but it can also be that your team doesnt even now that there exists a key to dodge xD... than theres is no +1 option for you and there is no cap option for you.... basically you get stomped while as thief you just can hardly do anything in such a situation - i mean thiefs arent known to be the biggest duelists so in that case thiefs feel especially useless while with other classes at least you can handle up to 2 enemies for good amount of time in hope that your team can handle the reamining 3 enemy players

As a roamer not as good. I still think it has use in a duelist role and +1er

Doing this poll in this teef hating forum...

Teef is dead bc it get eaten by rev/rene, the known noodle dmg and overall nerfed ini system, now have fun with rev/rene train, again endless side node battles, annoying res by guard, ele, war...and overall slow gameplay

1 Year after ur famous cmc patch u can feel pvp is even worse, less people and on top cheaters, hackers ...

When you go from being uncontested in your role for ages to actually having competition from other classes... I can see how you'd feel that your class is dead.

8 ini was a lazy change... but so are the majority of nerfs Anet deals out (Core engi nerfs). I don't see why thief should get special treatment.

@FrownyClown.8402 said:As a roamer not as good. I still think it has use in a duelist role and +1er

The +1er part is being a roamer, it was always the role of thief to do that anyways.

@Kuma.1503 said:When you go from being uncontested in your role for ages to actually having competition from other classes... I can see how you'd feel that your class is dead.

8 ini was a lazy change... but so are the majority of nerfs Anet deals out (Core engi nerfs). I don't see why thief should get special treatment.

Personally im quite happy with the change, i still play thief a bit but it never really impacts me too much because SA still exists, and it still saves me from situations that i should die in. I only ever die if i facetank attacks lol.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Performance of Thief is bad after 8 init shortbow 5.

Honestly that change needs to be reverted.

The performance of thief (like every class that isnt busted) is good if in the hands of a good player, if in the hands of a bad player then said thief value will be very low, thats how classes SHOULD be in pvp.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Performance of Thief is bad after 8 init shortbow 5.

Honestly that change needs to be reverted.

If the performance is bad after shortbow#5 nerf, then reverting this change would be a mistake. The level of performance of a profession shouldn't depend on a single weapon skill.

I'm not saying that thief don't need some nice buffs, but thief certainly don't need to depend on a single skill either. Reverting the shortbow nerf will only lead thiefs to return to it's initial state where player couldn't fathom a thief build without a shortbow.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Performance of Thief is bad after 8 init shortbow 5.

Honestly that change needs to be reverted.

this is kinda true. IA arrow cost should be reverted as no skill regardless should cost over half of a classes global resource for a single cast, thats pretty silly BUT u are 100% right no class or kit should be dependent on one skill to perform well as thats a huge fail in design. AI should got a reduction in range and the removal of the blind, say 750 or 800 woulda sufficed.The sb is designed badly for sure, if AI didn't exist it woul be barely used.

@Kachros.4751 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:When you go from being uncontested in your role for ages to actually having competition from other classes... I can see how you'd feel that your class is dead.

8 ini was a lazy change... but so are the majority of nerfs Anet deals out (Core engi nerfs). I don't see why thief should get special treatment.

Tbh this ^. While I'm not a huge fan of just bloating costs to balance skills, I don't think thief is dead because of it. It's still the safest class in the game by a mile. It still has better mobility than any other class + stealth to help them disengage fights that would result in the deaths of most other classes (exceptions being maybe a rocket boots engi or owl soulbeast). It can still use stealth to cover rotations, leaving players in a lose/lose scenario of either asuming the thief has left and leaving their node, only to have it back-capped, or staying to defend it, only for the thief to rotate mid and get a kill.

Thief is still thief even after the sb5 nerf. I wouldn't call it dead by a long shot. Even core thief, without dash to make up for the nerf, is nowhere near the level of underperformance of core mesmer, engi, or ele.

Condi P/Dagger can still kill people who don't press buttons right. (And that's kind of hard to run in a team comp anyway.)One good nerf away from being actively sandbag though. Just because it isn't dead doesn't mean it's in a good spot.

@Kuma.1503 said:It's still the safest class in the game by a mile.

It's only being played safe because all risky options don't deal enough damage to be warranted. It's not more intrinsically safe than any other class by any significant margin.

It still has better mobility than any other class + stealth to help them disengage fights that would result in the deaths of most other classes (exceptions being maybe a rocket boots engi or owl soulbeast). It can still use stealth to cover rotations, leaving players in a lose/lose scenario of either asuming the thief has left and leaving their node, only to have it back-capped, or staying to defend it, only for the thief to rotate mid and get a kill.

You're right, but defining what the thief generic +1 role is doesn't make it good, especially when other classes can perform this role as well.

Thief is still thief even after the sb5 nerf. I wouldn't call it dead by a long shot. Even core thief, without dash to make up for the nerf, is nowhere near the level of underperformance of core mesmer, engi, or ele.

All three of these core classes are about on par with core thief performance wise, with core ele being the weakest objectively.You're correct about Sb5 not being the classkilling nerf. I'll give you that.

All daredevil physical skills, staff, and sword need to be buffed, and rifle needs to be rebalanced so holding down 2 isn't more effective than timing 3. Then I'll agree with you.

Nerf thief, btw. I can still down people with a toothpick if they can't fight.

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:Condi P/Dagger can still kill people who don't press buttons right. (And that's kind of hard to run in a team comp anyway.)One good nerf away from being actively sandbag though. Just because it isn't dead doesn't mean it's in a good spot.

All three of these core classes are about on par with core thief performance wise, with core ele being the weakest objectively.You're correct about Sb5 not being the classkilling nerf. I'll give you that.

All daredevil physical skills, staff, and sword need to be buffed, and rifle needs to be rebalanced so holding down 2 isn't more effective than timing 3. Then I'll agree with you.

Nerf thief, btw. I can still down people with a toothpick if they can't fight.

Buffing underperforming weapons/traits? Such a concept is unheard of since Feb2020 dropped. Around here we just nerf everything else until it's all equally garbage.

I would also enjoy if nades were worth running on core, if rifle 4 didn't have two trade-offs for the price of a single CC that does 7 damage, if pistol skills were strong enough to be worth dodging (people facetank my Pistol 2-3 all the time and just walk away as if a flea had bitten them) but trying to convince people that buffs to underperformers are necessary as well as nerfs is like pulling teeth.

My point is that thief alone shouldn't get special treatment. It's far from dead when compared to actual underperformers (who have had to just suck it up for ages), What core thief has to deal with now is just a taste of what other classes have had to deal with and accept. Saying buff thief doesn't begin to address the real problem here.

We should be saying "Buff underperformers" because frankly there's been a criminal lack of that since Feb 2020 dropped.

@Kuma.1503 said:

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:Condi P/Dagger can still kill people who don't press buttons right. (And that's kind of hard to run in a team comp anyway.)One good nerf away from being actively sandbag though. Just because it isn't dead doesn't mean it's in a good spot.

All three of these core classes are about on par with core thief performance wise, with core ele being the weakest objectively.You're correct about Sb5 not being the classkilling nerf. I'll give you that.

All daredevil physical skills, staff, and sword need to be buffed, and rifle needs to be rebalanced so holding down 2 isn't more effective than timing 3. Then I'll agree with you.

Nerf thief, btw. I can still down people with a toothpick if they can't fight.

I think ur first paragraph is a lot of the reason players are leaving or have left aside from infrequent pvp support. Classes or builds become less fun to play if the devs are only focused on bringing fun, effective and interesting traits and skills down in line with useless traits or skills as a effort to make the useless or less used skills more appealing. The devs should definitely open their eyes up to bringing the less used or useless traits up in line with the better ones as it will create a better chance for an increase in diversity among effective builds instead of increasing build diversity of ineffective builds. One sounds way better than the other.Yeah engi needs love and tweaks in other areas and whether op is asking for buffs to thief or any other class really has no bearing on engi or any class op is not asking for. He plays thief so of course his thread would be about improving thief, why would he post a thread asking for buffs of a class he doesn't main, just like if u post a buff thread its probably on the classes u play right? He's not asking for special treatment, just asking for buffs to the class he plays and isn't implying others shouldn't as well.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:Condi P/Dagger can still kill people who don't press buttons right. (And that's kind of hard to run in a team comp anyway.)One good nerf away from being actively sandbag though. Just because it isn't dead doesn't mean it's in a good spot.

All three of these core classes are about on par with core thief performance wise, with core ele being the weakest objectively.You're correct about Sb5 not being the classkilling nerf. I'll give you that.

All daredevil physical skills, staff, and sword need to be buffed, and rifle needs to be rebalanced so holding down 2 isn't more effective than timing 3. Then I'll agree with you.

Nerf thief, btw. I can still down people with a toothpick if they can't fight.

You make very good points. I'd be lying if I said there wasn't a good deal of frustration behind that post (Trying to convince a mob that clamoring for nerfs and only nerfs isn't the right way to go for over a year with no luck will do that). I suppose what irks me most is the tendency of thieves to act as if they've been singled out. It's even become a meme around here "Nerf teef". But you are right, I suppose I should be grateful we're even having this conversation at all. It shows people at least are beginning to see the flaws in this "nerf everything" approach.

@Kuma.1503 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:Condi P/Dagger can still kill people who don't press buttons right. (And that's kind of hard to run in a team comp anyway.)One good nerf away from being actively sandbag though. Just because it isn't dead doesn't mean it's in a good spot.

All three of these core classes are about on par with core thief performance wise, with core ele being the weakest objectively.You're correct about Sb5 not being the classkilling nerf. I'll give you that.

All daredevil physical skills, staff, and sword need to be buffed, and rifle needs to be rebalanced so holding down 2 isn't more effective than timing 3. Then I'll agree with you.

Nerf thief, btw. I can still down people with a toothpick if they can't fight.

I think buffs are 100% equally important as nerfs when it comes to balance, often times a class can need both in different areas. I think the community going through its whole powercreep era has almost made a lot of players short sided as well as has helped direct anet in a sort of tunnel vision type balance approach where buffs are a dirty word now unfortunately. That said in anets defense (seldom position for me) one minute players say ttk is to low than next ttk is to high lol.Anyway I really hope anet gets out of their tunnel vision and gives buffs along with nerfs where needed and instead of this nerf only vision as its making classes less fun, in my opinion its best if all classes are fun and effective as that can only help the game and its population. I find it weird how players don't seem to want that, I want all my fellow players to be able to find a main class or a few and have a blast along side me. Even if its op than yeah shave it slowly but leave it effective and fun for who plays it. Pvp will always be toxic some what but I'd bet it would lessen a bit lol

@Kachros.4751 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Performance of Thief is bad after 8 init shortbow 5.

Honestly that change needs to be reverted.

Well of course, but that's not changing the fact that when Thief mobility is being largely nerfed while the mobility of slower bruisers is increasing, its making the difference in mobility factor between the weak fast guy and the slow strong guy not much of a difference at all, and when that happens the slow strong guy begins to greatly outperform.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Performance of Thief is bad after 8 init shortbow 5.

Honestly that change needs to be reverted.

Read what I said to Kachros.

Thieves needed SB5 to stay 5 init for those reasons.

@"Kuma.1503" said:My point is that thief alone shouldn't get special treatment. It's far from dead when compared to actual underperformers (who have had to just suck it up for ages).

Let's not do that. If we keep blocking actual fixes from going through because X class that you happen to play is not buffed everything is going to go further to hell than it already is.

What core thief has to deal with now is just a taste of what other classes have had to deal with and accept. Saying buff thief doesn't begin to address the real problem here.

I'm not talking about core thief specifically here. I am aware it's weak and is not alone on that front.

We should be saying "Buff underperformers" because frankly there's been a criminal lack of that since Feb 2020 dropped.

I'm aware core engie is hella weak despite what Woodstock is doing.

@"Kuma.1503" said:It's even become a meme around here "Nerf teef".

It's a meme because Thief is punished equally across all specs. While core engie is weak and playing with core kit is frustrating, engies have the option of rolling either holo or scrapper and becoming combat effective. I understand the nade nerf was frustrating and getting it rebalanced because of holo was annoying, but holo still performs well, as does scrapper. Correct me if I'm wrong by all means.

Also I don't play core engie very well/am not interested in core beyond bomb kits (I am mildly interested in holo/scrapper) , while I do play thief, so I'm going to have much more to say about thief, and relatively little to say about engie. I'm not against them getting buffs, as long as the end result is not handhold-y.