A desperate plea from those of us downed.

Hello i thought i would like to bring up a problem in world vs world and in general the whole game. The downed state. Regular PVE doesn't have this problem but it is a bit problem in both PVP and WVW. What i mean here is some classes are arguable better in thir downed skills. i would say the mesmer, ele, and guardian have some of the best downed states in the game. a small tele with stealth, a movement skill in mist form, and an AOE shield that pushes back. Alas the necro, engie, and rev have some of the worst. a single target skill.

the reason i say they are bad is with the first three they will always have the skill work unless the enemy has stability. even then the guards is in an AOE. the latter three, they go down and the enemy has stab they have 0 options. The other big problem is the allowment of other mechanics inside of the finisher. Elixedr S to finish. a skill that last the duration of a finisher with 0 ways to counter and makes the engie completely invulnerable. its a free finish with no way to change it. from there mesmer, ranger, and thief can stealth/ portal while doing the finisher. Is there anyway to change in these two game modes the ability for those scenarios to be a thing? you cannot cap in wvw or pvp when S or stealth. you caint carry points while stealth or S. why should on get a free kill that way? the other fix would be to rework every classes downed state so we all had the choice of an AOE push skills or something to move us. it has been 8 years anet and with EOD hopefully nearing the end of development and the team can focus on some smaller stuff that this would be one of them.

Classes should have never been given downed skills based on the class.It should have been the same 3 or 4 generic skills for everyone, 1 attack 2 single target knockdown 3 regain health, that includes the down state health pool.They were designed that way as per class balancing/theme (why necros have like the largest health pools, while the lowest healthpool classes have the best down skills ele guard thief mesmer), but you can already customize your character in stats/specs to live longer in fights or go for more damage, I don't think down state should be a part of this balance.

thing is i run a hard tank with high hp as a necro and there are times when i get downed but the opponent stealths and finishes or elixer S and finishes. that doesnt seem fair to me when i was able to get them to an almost down state.

Killed one core ranger in water and then we tried to kill him 3 vs 1 in water when he was downed. It did take like over minute. Not balanced at all.

Don't die13 charrcars

@LetoII.3782 said:Don't die13 charrcars

har har. thanks for the stunning insight.

Tbh I find this thread completely wrong except for some downedstate "exploits". The classes listed as bad? Thats the good downed states. I would add most other classes to that list as well. Yes they vary some in single target or AoE, but thats fine. Its certain other that are OP.

Thief and ranger are the two offenders IMO. Ranger specifically in underwater downedstate, they become basicly immortal. Thieves when specced for stealth when they down in stealth can end up in a situation where they can literally heal 100% while having 100% stealth. Edit: well, ele mist form going through portals can be considered a third.

On top of that, arguing that downedstate is OP then argue that skills that help stomp is OP is wrong. Especially for a class that you list as one of the "worst" downed states having one of the "best" stomps, the engie. Yeah you win some you loose some. Again the thief stands out as the one being an "offender", but this aspect is pretty meaningless.

Overall, the skills are irrelevant. The things that is wrong with downed state remain:

There should be 1:1 healing restriction <- delete power resRally should be removed <- delete rally botting, more teamwork to resDowned penalty should be upped to 33% (ie 3 states with 66% HP start, instead of 4 with 75% HP start) <- harder penalties, more time to stompDowned penalty timer should be 3x longer per state <- harder penalties

When this is done you can even buff some downed state skills, yes.

@Dawdler.8521 said:There should be 1:1 healing restriction <- delete power resRally should be removed <- delete rally botting, more teamwork to resDowned penalty should be upped to 33% (ie 3 states with 66% HP start, instead of 4 with 75% HP start) <- harder penalties, more time to stompDowned penalty timer should be 3x longer per state <- harder penalties

When this is done you can even buff some downed state skills, yes.

This would be a great way to start balancing downstate. Balance should be done with a chisel never a sledge hammer.

@Dawdler.8521 said:Thieves when specced for stealth when they down in stealth can end up in a situation where they can literally heal 100% while having 100% stealth. Edit: well, ele mist form going through portals can be considered a third.

You can AoE and cleave the thief even if you can't see them. Invis != invul, and anything that interrupts that heal is going to make them struggle to self res from stealth. Thief teleport stomp is also one of their most powerful utilities being used up to secure a kill and there are counter plays to it too.

the real problem with downed state in Wvw is... downed state. Just get rid of it.

Necro has one of the more powerful downed states imo, heal8ng while doing tons of dmg? Aoe fear around them? Warrior throws a single target hammer at you, and the third skill is on cd alll day until you get finished off

Anyways, downed state skills shouldnt be class specific, everybody should throw pebbles at the enemy.

@RedShark.9548 said:Aoe fear around them?

Is it an AoE though?

@Junkpile.7439 said:Killed one core ranger in water and then we tried to kill him 3 vs 1 in water when he was downed. It did take like over minute. Not balanced at all.

Stun/interrupt the pet. Shouldn't be difficult with three of you.

~ Kovu

@Darth Chain.1807 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:Don't die13 charrcars

It's obligatory for this subject, somebody hadda.But I will add something about Guardian downstate vs. Necro: Necro can kill in downstate. Guardian's damage skill is pathetic, and while as a necro you might think their AoE knockback is strong, you don't need stability to counter it. You can blind the guardian, you can have aegis, you can stand 200 range away and the guardian is helpless. I'd love to trade you that knockback for the murder field a necro can drop.

@Chips.7968 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Thieves when specced for stealth when they down in stealth can end up in a situation where they can literally heal 100% while having 100% stealth. Edit: well, ele mist form going through portals can be considered a third.

Either way, as I said, overall the skills are irrelevant to issues of downed state anyway.

A desperate plea from those that are downed? Remove downed state. There we go. > @Dawdler.8521 said:

@Chips.7968 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Thieves when specced for stealth when they down in stealth can end up in a situation where they can literally heal 100% while having 100% stealth. Edit: well, ele mist form going through portals can be considered a third.

Your complaint is VERY circumstantial though. To have that much stealth they've basically stacked it before going down. Or it's shadow refuge. The amount of fights against thieves whereby they've managed to self res from stealth is... in my experience... as a thief...

Zero.

It really isn't a problem. Also, nothing to do with downed state per se either. It's mixing utility skills prior to going down, to going down, to then teleporting from down in stealth gained before going down. Perhaps they were never downed in the first place rather than they were downed and that last second shadow refuge gave them so much stealth they teleported a whole 700 to res.

Here's a better solution to all woes. REMOVE DOWNED STATE FROM ALL NON PVE MODES.

All problems fixed. No OP downed state. No OP stomps. No OP unfair can't beat a player from downed state while they're still up etc. All fixed.

Alternative to compromise so everyone is happy : All down state skill normalized regardless of class : 1 normal attack, half power half condi, one hard CC, one debuff (to avoid all the other shenanigans).

There.

@RedShark.9548 said:Necro has one of the more powerful downed states imo, heal8ng while doing tons of dmg? Aoe fear around them? Warrior throws a single target hammer at you, and the third skill is on cd alll day until you get finished off

Anyways, downed state skills shouldnt be class specific, everybody should throw pebbles at the enemy.Necro has a single target fear that needs a selected target (so stealth counters it) and has a huge tell in form of a dark scythe creature above the necro's head when he casts it. All you need to do is start the stomp, dodge through the necro when you see that animation, turn around and stomp again. Seriously this fear is so incredibly easy to avoid, that I am seeing this as some small entertaining quicktime event when stomping necros.

The damage of the necro downstate autoattack was hardnerfed last year and can't kill anybody anymore unless he is at 5% health when stomping.

Warrior is almost as easy to counter as necro. The hammer cast is a bit harder to see than the fear, but still dodgeable. Vengeance is a joke you can use to humiliate the warrior after you downed him as you just need to run in circles for 10 seconds until he inevitably dies.

That said:Downstate should be removed in WvW. But it's not that we had this topic already for 500 times.

@XenesisII.1540 said:Classes should have never been given downed skills based on the class.

Classes should have never been given downed state in competitive modes.

@Dawdler.8521 said:There should be 1:1 healing restriction <- delete power resRally should be removed <- delete rally botting, more teamwork to resDowned penalty should be upped to 33% (ie 3 states with 66% HP start, instead of 4 with 75% HP start) <- harder penalties, more time to stompDowned penalty timer should be 3x longer per state <- harder penalties

But something like this would still be an improvement.

@Chips.7968 said:A desperate plea from those that are downed? Remove downed state. There we go. > @Dawdler.8521 said:

@Chips.7968 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Thieves when specced for stealth when they down in stealth can end up in a situation where they can literally heal 100% while having 100% stealth. Edit: well, ele mist form going through portals can be considered a third.

Since you seem so keen on totally ignoring my entire post, that was exactly my point. Some classes has very circumstantial issues with downstate, yes. Ranger underwater. Thief that's stacked alot of stealth before downing. Elementalists near doors.

And just like I also said, nothing of this is really a problem. That's not the main issue with downed state.

As poll after poll after poll has showed, the community want downstate to remain. Yet again we land in the stupid scenario where people that can compromise have to argue with people that completely refuse to compromise.

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:Aoe fear around them?

@"Dawdler.8521" said:As poll after poll after poll has showed, the community want downstate to remain. Yet again we land in the stupid scenario where people that can compromise have to argue with people that completely refuse to compromise.

A forum poll is a small subset of overall playerbase and isn't "what the community wants" btw.I mean obviously it is, when it shows what I want it to show and only then, but I'm pretty sure you know it works exactly the same for you :D

Ah and lets not forget that the average player wants downstate to remain unchanged, because the average player is, well, bad and downstate is what saves their butts when they hug their groups and fail ^^

The solution is to give everyone the same downed skills.

Skill #1: Necromancer channel attack that heal and damage.Skill #2: Elementalist mist formSkill #3: Ranger healing petSkill #4: Bandage

The obvious solution is to disable downstate in WvW.

kinda agree... either nerf downstate hurtingly, or fully remove it. imo downstate's existance was far better in the "real dps" meta, but since the nerfs, u need to waste far too many skills to finally finish a downed player often, which really favors bigger groups on similar skill-level... toptier balancing there anet /s

i think they could just remove downstate. would add more risk-reward again. but many big bursts of the roamerclasses would need to be tuned down then (otherwise we'd go one step more towards rambo meta)

The whole point point of skills like Shadowstep, Distortion, and Elixir S is that a quick down finish is your reward for saving a major resource for the finisher.

That's all the downed skills are supposed to stress: does your enemy have cooldowns they can burn to finish you in a team fight? They do it in unequal ways but, honestly, which one's hardest to deal with is also kinda matchup-dependent.

The actual comeback mechanic in the game is other players reviving you, interrupting stomps/cleaves to secure the revive, &c. If you're downed 1-on-1, you've already lost. An enemy can just back off and slow-bleed you from range if they really need to.