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Champions Chapter 3 [spoiler discussion]

EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
edited March 2, 2021 in Lore

Well it is almost time and looks like Braham will be meeting with Primordius.

Take your bet to where this may lead and of course we will discuss this matter in depth once the chapter is released.

For me there is may two outcomes....

1) Braham becomes Primordius Champion which may force us to kill him later in the storyline or he becomes Primordius Champion just so he can trick Primordius later and dies doing so.

2) We learn something we never knew before about Primordius and Braham remains loyal to our side instead of becoming Primordius Champion.

or

3) Braham dies because that is the most common method for the story writers to remove a character from the storyline since they can't allow most characters to retire from the storyline alive and healthy.

<13

Comments

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2021

    Does Primordus corrupt living things? I thought it didn’t.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Primordus has yet to actively corrupt anything living, so I doubt Braham will become its champion.

    And no, the Stone Summit don't count.
    They accidentally did that to themselves, Primordus didn't do that.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2021

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Primordus has yet to actively corrupt anything living, so I doubt Braham will become its champion.

    And no, the Stone Summit don't count.
    They accidentally did that to themselves, Primordus didn't do that.

    The Stone Summit was also converting to stone at the same time. So in the end, Primordus, or rather his power, did just corrupt stone, similiar to how Destroyers are created.

    I do wonder if we'll ever see Primordus-corrupted earth elementals.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2021

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Does Primordus corrupt living things? I thought it didn’t.

    Not that we know of, but the Destroyer Queen appeared to lay something skin to eggs, thus implying the possibility of living corruption, but nothing has been confirmed

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Zola.6197Zola.6197 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2021

    I think the devs want us to believe Braham will become Primordus’ Champion, but I doubt it’ll go there. Or at least not all the way.

    At most I could see Braham forcibly co-opting Primordus’ power with the spirits shielding him from being consumed/corrupted by Primordus’ power. Which I don’t love, but seems more plausible than Primordus giving a rat’s behind about Braham lol.

    Edit: maybe the thing Braham is approaching isn’t Primordus, but a scion that could replace him. Perhaps that’s something related to owl’s prophecy.

  • radda.8920radda.8920 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2021

    As long as braham dies quickly, That sounds good. And the idea of ​​killing him myself is more than appreciable, I can't wait
    Even if as gw1 players and having known the great destroyer, it's pathetic to see primordius associated with braham but nothing surprises me anymore with arena.
    the old writers have been gone for a while so the story will look like a filler until the end.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well the prophecy is either Braham dies or Jormag dies, right? But that's assuming that Jormag kills Braham or Braham kills Jormag.

    It could be intentionally misleading and insisting that the two are adversaries. That the resolution is Jormag dies by Braham's hand. But the twist could be that the resolution is that whatever actions Braham takes, that leads to his death, is the better version of the prophecy.

    So my thoughts are, Braham works with the spirits somehow not to kill Primordus but to subdue it or siphon it somehow. Perhaps the spirits even share somekind of unknown history with Primordus that we'll learn about in the episode. I've always really liked the idea that Primordus could somehow be linked to the Spirit of Fire that the kodan use and the magic that Braham's bow uses. It doesn't fit NOW, but it doesn't seem implausible that they could tie it in if they really wanted to.

    Then you have Jormag left to deal with, and with Primordus out of the picture would it be possible that Jormag would go back to just being something we learn to deal with. With the final chapter being called "Judgment" perhaps we deal with Primordus completely in this episode and the final episode is us and Aurene judging Jormag and what steps we should take towards it.

    I really don't see Braham just willingly becoming a champion of Primordus, or wanting to even borrow power with the sole mission of killing Jormag.

    He states that 1000's of people have died because of the Elder Dragon and seeks to end it. To me that implies that he's seeking more than some edge over Jormag, because (hopefully) he realizes that the death of Jormag is just as cataclysmic at this moment. So whatever plans he has with Primordus and the spirits I think is in a much wider scope than just looking for a power boost.

    With Primordus resolves that leaves the final chapter to finish off Jormag and then whatever happens that leads us to Cantha to potentially deal with the last remaining dragon, or to start looking for more replacements for the current ones. (Potentially some information provided to us by the spirits.)

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    Well it is almost time and looks like Braham will be meeting with Primordius.

    Take your bet to where this may lead and of course we will discuss this matter in depth once the chapter is released.

    For me there is may two outcomes....

    1) Braham becomes Primordius Champion which may force us to kill him later in the storyline or he becomes Primordius Champion just so he can trick Primordius later and dies doing so.

    2) We learn something we never knew before about Primordius and Braham remains loyal to our side instead of becoming Primordius Champion.

    or

    3) Braham dies because that is the most common method for the story writers to remove a character from the storyline since they can't allow most characters to retire from the storyline alive and healthy.

    It's a long shot but...given that Braham's approaching Primordus accompanies the fomer's questioning of the Elder Draconic Cycle, musing that something has to change, I think that Braham is going to commune with the mind of the Elder Dragon Primordus and reach an epiphany. Primordus may surprise Braham, telling the norn that Jormag's protection is the right choice for the norn. This makes the most sense to me from a narrative progression standpoint. The dragon preparing to defend Tyria isn't Primordus, it's Jormag. The latter's decision to chill mortals is probably an attempt to preserve them from the DSD's incoming assault.

    So, my money is on the idea that Primordus will appeal to Braham to join Jormag and will allow itself to be sacrificed in order to help ready the mortal, terrestrial races to confront, and ultimately reconcile with, the Deep Sea Dragon's magics.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

    Or you can follow my blog, The Lyssa Mystery.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well we see the Tengu as an allied faction, and we know there are three more. The Olmakhan seem to be another. who will the last two be? Kodan I hope is one of them.

  • radda.8920radda.8920 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Well we see the Tengu as an allied faction, and we know there are three more. The Olmakhan seem to be another. who will the last two be? Kodan I hope is one of them.

    skritt and no idea for the last one

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Does Primordus corrupt living things? I thought it didn’t.

    Not that we know of, but the Destroyer Queen appeared to lay something skin to eggs, thus implying the possibility of living corruption, but nothing has been confirmed

    Something like eggs seems to be the way that Destroyers reproduce in general, so I tend to regard the "maybe a creature got corrupted while pregnant?" thing as being the NPCs speculating based on minions they know (Risen, Icebrood, and Branded being the types they'd be more familiar with) while the behaviour of Destroyers is less well known. After all, back in GW1, we had the Bringers of Destruction spawning what were effectively Destroyer eggs.

    Which could even be a reflection of Primordus' conflagration domain. Unlike most minions, which need to be corrupted from existing beings or created directly by the dragon, Primordus's destroyers can reproduce on their own, allowing them to spread like, well, a conflagration. Which would explain why Primordus seems to be largely uncaring of mortals - because Primordus is able to get as many minions as Primordus can sustain through the reproduction capabilities of the champions.

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    Well it is almost time and looks like Braham will be meeting with Primordius.

    Take your bet to where this may lead and of course we will discuss this matter in depth once the chapter is released.

    For me there is may two outcomes....

    1) Braham becomes Primordius Champion which may force us to kill him later in the storyline or he becomes Primordius Champion just so he can trick Primordius later and dies doing so.

    2) We learn something we never knew before about Primordius and Braham remains loyal to our side instead of becoming Primordius Champion.

    or

    3) Braham dies because that is the most common method for the story writers to remove a character from the storyline since they can't allow most characters to retire from the storyline alive and healthy.

    It's a long shot but...given that Braham's approaching Primordus accompanies the fomer's questioning of the Elder Draconic Cycle, musing that something has to change, I think that Braham is going to commune with the mind of the Elder Dragon Primordus and reach an epiphany. Primordus may surprise Braham, telling the norn that Jormag's protection is the right choice for the norn. This makes the most sense to me from a narrative progression standpoint. The dragon preparing to defend Tyria isn't Primordus, it's Jormag. The latter's decision to chill mortals is probably an attempt to preserve them from the DSD's incoming assault.

    So, my money is on the idea that Primordus will appeal to Braham to join Jormag and will allow itself to be sacrificed in order to help ready the mortal, terrestrial races to confront, and ultimately reconcile with, the Deep Sea Dragon's magics.

    Given how determined Jormag is to destroy Primordus, I doubt Primordus is just going to go "sure, you should go with Jormag".

    It could be interesting, though, if Braham is taking the attitude that he should take advantage of his apparent connection to Destroyers to see if he can get Primordus' side of the story. Which could have two possible results:

    1) Primordus is exactly what he/she/they appears to be, and once Braham reveals he's not a regular Destroyer, he has to try to fight his way out.
    2) There's a curveball as it turns out that this is the first time a mortal has actually tried to communicate with Primordus, and Primordus proves to be more open to negotiation than we might think.

    A while back, I did ponder the possibility that this isn't the first time that Jormag has used mortals as cats-paws in their desire to destroy Primordus, and Primordus has therefore been acting out of a justified paranoia and the assumption that mortals are a threat because they have been before. It was a wildspec then, and I'd say it probably still is now, but it would be an interesting turnaround if, after the initial truce with Jormag, it turns out to be the persuasive charmer of the two who's the aggressor while the prickly loner really just wants to be left alone but has been attacked so many times that they've learned to push threats as far away as possible. A mortal getting close to Primordus and then using the opportunity to talk instead of attacks might be what's needed to shock Primordus out of their current assumptions.

    Or Primordus might simply take the opportunity to claim Braham for their own, alive or dead, willing or otherwise. Either way, it should be an interesting chapter.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    perhaps is just a random blabling from one these "DRM"s.

    -- Atlantean Sword --
    The secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, Conan. You must learn its discipline. For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts..." [Points to sword] "This you can trust."

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    perhaps is just a random blabling from one these "DRM"s.

    Based on the release page, there's going to be a Scrying Pool vision mission where Braham goes looking to find the meaning of Owl's prophecy. This is probably what the scene from 1:08 to 1:20 is teasing.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2021

    I just hope we get to play with our own skills and Braham's weapons are just accessible via the "special action" key, just like it was with Ryland in Darkrime Delves.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I just hope we get to play with our own skills and Braham's weapons are just a bundle, just like it was with Ryland.

    Same, although my Guardian uses Braham's mace and shield so not so much of an issue for him!

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Is it just me or did that Icebrood Construct have some purple parts in it?

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Is it just me or did that Icebrood Construct have some purple parts in it?

    Might be a lighting thing. The up close view def has purple one on side and in the glowing chest. When you see it across the bridge, it's blue

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Does Primordus corrupt living things? I thought it didn’t.

    Not that we know of, but the Destroyer Queen appeared to lay something skin to eggs, thus implying the possibility of living corruption, but nothing has been confirmed

    The wyvern in the Thunderhead Peak DRM also lays eggs. No implication of living corruption.

    Besides, the Destroyer Queen - notably a crab - was laying eggs that produced destroyer trolls and harpies. That's not how biology works so I doubt it was a pregnant living like the risen drake/spider broodmothers that hatch risen drake/spider hatchlings.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Is it just me or did that Icebrood Construct have some purple parts in it?

    Might be a lighting thing. The up close view def has purple one on side and in the glowing chest. When you see it across the bridge, it's blue

    Thought so, wonder if that will hold any significance...

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Is it just me or did that Icebrood Construct have some purple parts in it?

    Don't think so. Probably a change in lighting as most instances with that thing is very blue hued.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • If it leads to some bid Primordus fight, I would like to see a highly intelligent Skritt ally faction for fun and to finally take a look at what a combat-ready collective of Skritt is capable of !

    Make Banner Warrior for Zergs great again!!!

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Grand Marshal.4098 said:
    If it leads to some bid Primordus fight, I would like to see a highly intelligent Skritt ally faction for fun and to finally take a look at what a combat-ready collective of Skritt is capable of !

    I'm hoping they converge like ants into a mighty morphin skritt zorg. Like the entire colony of them in Brisban shows up as this giant robotic thing covered in metallic scraps and spare parts with lazer cannons.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2021

    I think his goal there is to wake Primordus up so the two dragons can fight.

    Aside from being twins and that we know that they are each other's weakness... they also have a history of conflict and are the only known Elder Dragons that have physically clashed in the past.. and Jormag was the one who came out of that worse off.

    Jormag has been closing that gap though, growing in power to get the upper hand over it's brother while Primordus has been catching some Z's.

    I think Jormag's agenda now that it has closed that gap will be to kill Primordus before he wakes up and becomes a far more significant threat to it.. it's the most tactical advantage Jormag has over it's brother.
    Knowing that we cannot allow Jormag to do that as it will tip the scale far too much in Jormag's favour I think Braham with the guidance of all the Spirits of the Wild will intentionally awaken Primordus to fight Jormag.

    I expect our plan will be to strategically kill off both dragons minions while letting Jormag and Primordus fight until both Dragons are left weakened and then we'll launch a massive offensive and kill them both and allow the Spirits of the Wild to "direct the fall" as Owl put it and absorb the 2 Dragons magics.
    But I expect this plan to go massively wrong and the most likely scenario I predict will be Primordus killing Jormag and then going nuclear on the entire area around it before retreating back into the depths to recover.

    The other more unlikely scenario is that somehow Jormag has predicted every move we've made and has done what it does best and deceived us into a trap.
    Jormag and Primordus somehow came to an "understanding" and the moment when we believe the two dragons are going to fight and we can put our plan into action they instead combine their forces and launch a massive attack on our forces instead and decimate us.. forcing us to go on the run as both dragons are now actively hunting us all down.
    That would be a pretty fun twist but I don't find it all that likely.

    That said.. it could be what sets up Cantha.. forced to flee there as a means of getting away from them both, maybe they'll decimate Tyria entirely.. all the major cities and create a massive refugee crisis to Cantha which is certainly a scenario I could see them trying to explore.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I think his goal there is to wake Primordus up so the two dragons can fight.

    Aside from being twins and that we know that they are each other's weakness... they also have a history of conflict and are the only known Elder Dragons that have physically clashed in the past.. and Jormag was the one who came out of that worse off.

    Jormag has been closing that gap though, growing in power to get the upper hand over it's brother while Primordus has been catching some Z's.

    I think Jormag's agenda now that it has closed that gap will be to kill Primordus before he wakes up and becomes a far more significant threat to it.. it's the most tactical advantage Jormag has over it's brother.
    Knowing that we cannot allow Jormag to do that as it will tip the scale far too much in Jormag's favour I think Braham with the guidance of all the Spirits of the Wild will intentionally awaken Primordus to fight Jormag.

    I expect our plan will be to strategically kill off both dragons minions while letting Jormag and Primordus fight until both Dragons are left weakened and then we'll launch a massive offensive and kill them both and allow the Spirits of the Wild to "direct the fall" as Owl put it and absorb the 2 Dragons magics.
    But I expect this plan to go massively wrong and the most likely scenario I predict will be Primordus killing Jormag and then going nuclear on the entire area around it before retreating back into the depths to recover.

    The other more unlikely scenario is that somehow Jormag has predicted every move we've made and has done what it does best and deceived us into a trap.
    Jormag and Primordus somehow came to an "understanding" and the moment when we believe the two dragons are going to fight and we can put our plan into action they instead combine their forces and launch a massive attack on our forces instead and decimate us.. forcing us to go on the run as both dragons are now actively hunting us all down.
    That would be a pretty fun twist but I don't find it all that likely.

    That said.. it could be what sets up Cantha.. forced to flee there as a means of getting away from them both, maybe they'll decimate Tyria entirely.. all the major cities and create a massive refugee crisis to Cantha which is certainly a scenario I could see them trying to explore.

    Though I don't think Anet's going to alter much if any of the existing maps like they did back in the day, it tends to screw with newer players.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2021

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I think his goal there is to wake Primordus up so the two dragons can fight.

    Aside from being twins and that we know that they are each other's weakness... they also have a history of conflict and are the only known Elder Dragons that have physically clashed in the past.. and Jormag was the one who came out of that worse off.

    Jormag has been closing that gap though, growing in power to get the upper hand over it's brother while Primordus has been catching some Z's.

    I think Jormag's agenda now that it has closed that gap will be to kill Primordus before he wakes up and becomes a far more significant threat to it.. it's the most tactical advantage Jormag has over it's brother.
    Knowing that we cannot allow Jormag to do that as it will tip the scale far too much in Jormag's favour I think Braham with the guidance of all the Spirits of the Wild will intentionally awaken Primordus to fight Jormag.

    I expect our plan will be to strategically kill off both dragons minions while letting Jormag and Primordus fight until both Dragons are left weakened and then we'll launch a massive offensive and kill them both and allow the Spirits of the Wild to "direct the fall" as Owl put it and absorb the 2 Dragons magics.
    But I expect this plan to go massively wrong and the most likely scenario I predict will be Primordus killing Jormag and then going nuclear on the entire area around it before retreating back into the depths to recover.

    The other more unlikely scenario is that somehow Jormag has predicted every move we've made and has done what it does best and deceived us into a trap.
    Jormag and Primordus somehow came to an "understanding" and the moment when we believe the two dragons are going to fight and we can put our plan into action they instead combine their forces and launch a massive attack on our forces instead and decimate us.. forcing us to go on the run as both dragons are now actively hunting us all down.
    That would be a pretty fun twist but I don't find it all that likely.

    That said.. it could be what sets up Cantha.. forced to flee there as a means of getting away from them both, maybe they'll decimate Tyria entirely.. all the major cities and create a massive refugee crisis to Cantha which is certainly a scenario I could see them trying to explore.

    Though I don't think Anet's going to alter much if any of the existing maps like they did back in the day, it tends to screw with newer players.

    Yeah I don't mean altering any existing maps I was thinking more along the lines of taking Gw2 out of of mainland Tyria with no intent on making new content in any old areas again.

    So for example we'll never go back to Divinity's Reach for any new open world story right.. so they could destroy it in a cutscene or something.. watch it get devastated while the citizens flee south to Cantha like us.
    If we ever do go back there in instanced content then it would be like Dragon Response Missions where we'd be in the ruins of the great city and it's overrun with dragon minions or something.. that's what I mean when we could destroy these big locations in the story without changing them in the open world, they've been doing exactly that with DRMS as well so it's definitely a possible thing to do.

    So in the overworld DR would be the same as it is now but in the canon story it got wrecked by Elder Dragons :)
    Stuff like that would be hell of a twist for the game for sure but I don't think they'll go that far tbh.. as epic as it could be lol

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    That's....I don't think that's a good idea. I'm not a fan of completely abandoning mainland Tyria, and I don't think just saying that it was all destroyed in the story while nothing actually changes with the maps could work. And torches and pitchfork mobs that Anet would have to face down....GW2 can't really pull off a Cataclysm like event, at least I really don't think they can.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There's also the issue that they've gone to all the trouble of making the celebrations something they can cycle at the existing capitals every year - if they destroyed Tyria, all of those celebrations would become anachronous if not relocated.

  • Kossage.9072Kossage.9072 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:
    Well the prophecy is either Braham dies or Jormag dies, right? But that's assuming that Jormag kills Braham or Braham kills Jormag.

    It could be intentionally misleading and insisting that the two are adversaries. That the resolution is Jormag dies by Braham's hand. But the twist could be that the resolution is that whatever actions Braham takes, that leads to his death, is the better version of the prophecy.

    Wolf doesn't quote the entire prophecy word for word, but he does use specific wording which is interesting:

    Wolf Spirit: The kodan ignore our voices. They cannot speak to Ox, Eagle, or Wolverine. But Braham can.
    Braham Eirsson: Why me?
    Wolf Spirit: You cracked the Fang of the Serpent. Fate now decrees you will either slay Jormag or fall to Jormag.
    Wolf Spirit: All Spirits know this. Even when taken and corrupted. You must go to their shrines. Demand their power.
    Braham Eirsson: Demand? Will they even listen to me?
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: No. You'll have to make them.
    Wolf Spirit: You are a norn of prophecy, but you are not yet true norn. Any can wear the wolf, but only true norn can become the wolf. (Source)

    The verb 'fall' can have multiple meanings in this context, but Braham chooses to interpret it as dying to Jormag, which may not necessarily be the case. After all, Jormag chose to spare Braham despite being aware of his role in the prophecy (sadly we've yet to learn what the source of this prophecy is and how both the Spirits and Jormag became aware of it and why that prophecy's power is so great that it even compels corrupted Spirits like Eagle to give Braham an audience). I imagine this may be related to Jormag being aware of Braham's connection to the spirits and how it may attempt to abuse this fact down the line, whether to involve Primordus in it somehow or not. :)

    So my thoughts are, Braham works with the spirits somehow not to kill Primordus but to subdue it or siphon it somehow. Perhaps the spirits even share somekind of unknown history with Primordus that we'll learn about in the episode. I've always really liked the idea that Primordus could somehow be linked to the Spirit of Fire that the kodan use and the magic that Braham's bow uses. It doesn't fit NOW, but it doesn't seem implausible that they could tie it in if they really wanted to.

    The thing is that, according to Kralkatorrik having a "Mother", other Elder Dragons likely have mothers too. I always liked the idea that "Mother" may in fact refer to the hinted Dragon Spirit. After all, both "A Spirit of Legend" and "The Power and Wisdom of the Kodan" blog posts suggest that there are spirits for multiple flora and fauna as well as elemental forces like Fire, or even inanimate stuff like Mountain, or natural concepts like Seasons and Darkness. Likewise, the norn Skuld suggests that Spirits of the Wild exist for each associated animal, or at least a superspecies from which associated species may have diverged (so Melandru's stalkers and snow leopards would both call Snow Leopard their patron spirit, I imagine; Mink and Otter may in fact be the same spirit with different names given how closely related IRL minks and otters are). Dragons, having so many species under the monicker, likely would have a "granddaddy" or "grandma" Spirit they have all descended from, and this would be the Dragon Spirit. Whether the Dragon Spirit exists, has died, or cut herself off from the Mists like Owl did, is the question if this theory is proven later.

    Skuld: Raven is one of the Spirits of the Wild. He's the natural embodiment of all ravens. There are many Spirits, but I personally follow Wolf. Wolf teaches me to appreciate my pack.
    Player: Is there a Spirit for every animal?
    Skuld: There is, or used to be. Some of the Spirits have died, like Owl. They're actually great beings, and they can die. All owls became weaker and more confused when their Spirit was killed.

    It would be interesting to explore any relation between the Fire Spirit and Primordus as both pool from fire magic. But if the kodan and norn stories are true and if each Elder Dragon is potentially descended, along with other dragons, from physical mothers or ultimately from the Dragon Spirit somehow, at most the Elder Dragons like Primordus would be nephews and nieces to the Fire Spirit as the Fire Spirit was a contemporary of the Dragon Spirit (the progenitor of dragons) by all indication.

    The Stone Summit invoking Primordus's power gradually turned them into minions, and Inquest directly subjecting victims to Primordus's unfiltered energy instantly turned them into destroyers. Meanwhile, the Fire Spirit is said (if the kodan story is true) to have begot the last flame before departing that became the basis for Koda's Flame. Given how kodan and quaggan wield the flame and haven't been corrupted yet, any connection between Primordus and the Fire Spirit would be elsewhere. Curiously the Flame Spirit's magic at least protects from Jormag's blizzards, proving that Primordus isn't Jormag's sole weakness...or the Rata Novans misinterpreted the data due to the chak invasion and, as I suspect, Jormag has multiple weaknesses (like its own Ice magic, the Vacuumagic polarizer approach used on Zhaitan, Spirits of the Wild magic etc.).

    Similarly, the jotun scroll's fire magic hasn't corrupted Braham yet and it hasn't affected Ryland negatively since his corruption as far as we know. While we've had cases that certain dragon corruption can be wielded without harm (the Dragonsblood weapons made from Kralkatorrik's blood), we have other cases where it's the opposite (Zhaitan-infused artifacts corrupting Kellach, Rissa, and Howl; and the Jormag blood-infused Sanguinary Blade corrupting its wielder over time while instantly corrupting any victim it slashes). It could of course be that the jotun discovered the dwarf/Glint method of somehow safely containing corruption into a weapon without causing risk to the weapon's wielder, but that remains to be seen as currently we have more nefarious artifacts tied to dragons than positive ones.

    Either way, it would certainly be interesting to explore more of the spirit lore and how much of the kodan tale is based on truth and how much of it has warped over the millennia.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Well we see the Tengu as an allied faction, and we know there are three more. The Olmakhan seem to be another. who will the last two be? Kodan I hope is one of them.

    I imagine the third faction is the skritt as we saw them in one of the earlier trailers fighting in Caledon as an allied faction. The fourth faction may be the kodan because they'd be the only "natives" of the affected zones who don't have representation in the war council so far. Well, aside from the sadly neglected Lionguard despite Gendarran and Bloodtide being targeted by dragon minions, but at least we got them as ambient NPCs in the former and hopefully in the latter given the locations the Bloodtide DRM is taking place in. :)

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    A while back, I did ponder the possibility that this isn't the first time that Jormag has used mortals as cats-paws in their desire to destroy Primordus, and Primordus has therefore been acting out of a justified paranoia and the assumption that mortals are a threat because they have been before. It was a wildspec then, and I'd say it probably still is now, but it would be an interesting turnaround if, after the initial truce with Jormag, it turns out to be the persuasive charmer of the two who's the aggressor while the prickly loner really just wants to be left alone but has been attacked so many times that they've learned to push threats as far away as possible. A mortal getting close to Primordus and then using the opportunity to talk instead of attacks might be what's needed to shock Primordus out of their current assumptions.

    While I can understand depicting Primordus as a chaotic, almost mindless force of nature (although we've been shown glimpses of strategic thinking with the way the destroyers specifically targeted infant Vlast and Aurene across vast distances, how the destroyers abused the asura gate network in GW1 to invade far locations, or how they used feint attacks to draw Lionguard and Vigil attention away from the true target in Ascalon Settlement), I would like Primordus to not just be an even more angry version of Kralkatorrik and that we'd actually get a bit of twist by showing hidden depths of some kind.

    I was also entertaining a theory similar to yours. Perhaps in the distant past Jormag may have manipulated mortals to kill Primordus's scion for whatever reason. Primordus could be the anti-Kralkatorrik in that he had not viewed his scion as a traitor to be slain but genuinely loved it as much as Kralk loved Glint, and seeing his scion be brutally murdered could've driven him off the edge and made him see all mortals as despicable allies of Jormag and thus an enemy to be purged from the face of the earth to avenge his beloved scion. The Icebrood Saga has already shown us the overarching theme of family, grieving parents, and legacy (via Asgeir's reveal; Bangar and Almorra arguing about their lost son Ajax; Ember wanting to avenge Almorra's death; Rytlock potentially being Bangar's son if the clues end up leading somewhere; the whole Brimstone family drama with Rytlock, Crecia and Ryland; Ryland wanting to avenge his warband's deaths, Braham's guildies believing he abandoned them and Jormag using that grief and hate to sway them to join the Svanir, Braham trying to honor Eir's legacy and finish her mission etc.), so it wouldn't surprise me if Primordus was actually revealed as a genuinely grieving father driven to madness of conflagration because of his Torment to make him a tragic villain while not downplaying his own villainy in trying to succeed in his genocide plans.

    As for Primordus, assuming that the rules of Elder Dragon knowledge acquisition are somewhat similar to Zhaitan (and potentially Mordremoth given how he switched from communicating with visions of death, destruction and destiny to actual manipulative banter with Scarlet later in their "bonding", or Kralkatorrik who also knew to speak in Tyrian to the Commander), Primordus should know everything his minions know. And as we've seen the Stone Summit unwittingly subjecting themselves to Primordus's corruption, their knowledge would've been forcibly added to Primordus's pool of knowledge.

    Even if Primordus had not corrupted mortals before, this sudden surge of new converts would've forced the idea of the Tyrian language and dwarven culture and the memories of the converted into Primordus via the hivemind, making him capable of communicating with speech rather than just visions by now depending on how quickly dragons learn grammar and language in general (as it took quite a while for Aurene to get a grasp of Tyrian language until her resurrection somehow enabled her to speak without a Voice like Caithe). Still, the Stone Summit remnants were corrupted decades ago, so it would've been ample time for Primordus to have mastered Tyrian by now.

    In fact, this revelation of Primordus's linguistic abilities would make us look at this banter about destroyers from Gendarran Fields DRM in a new light:

    Jhavi Jorasdottir: Tide's starting to turn!
    Marjory Delaqua: Why don't you try telling them that?
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: You know, I would, but I don't think Tyrian's their first language.

    I'd just love the chilling moment of actually encountering a destroyer who talks back to us. We've already seen some destroyers wielding weapons, and the Destroyer of Life used his bow quite efficiently in Edge of Destiny (and in this battle it was shown that its primordial fire could be used against it, suggesting that Primordus's fire magic, or the magic of the Fire Spirit's Kodan flame or the jotun scroll could likewise be effective weapons against Primordus), so I'd love to see more intelligent destroyer champions showing up to rattle us. In fact, I'd also love to see the return of the scary and tough obsidian destroyers we briefly met in an obscure event in Calx's lab forcing us to evacuate the overrun area or risk getting killed. The saga's story could finally reveal how these obsidian destroyers might be Primordus's elite vanguard whose abilities surpass even those encountered in DRMs so far. Would be fun if we encountered them during Braham and the Spirits' mission in the vision as a nice callback to core Tyria lore. :)

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2021

    So in the end Jormag is just batty insane like the other Elder Dragons but in her case she see every other races as lowly animals to a point she does not care they all die as long she gets what she wants.

    Also, RIP Braham.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2021

    What happened with Braham seemed like Arenanet didn't have a single scrap of an idea on how to continue this abomination of a story and just took the weirdest and worst idea straight from the forums.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2021

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    What happened with Braham seemed like Arenanet didn't have a single scrap of an idea on how to continue this abomination of a story and just took the weirdest and worst idea straight from the forums.

    ya sadly the way I see this, the only outcome is that he will die in the end as a act of sacrificing himself to defeat both Primodus and Jormag or he will live but mentally he will be dead like Zojja due to the effects of Primordus corruption on his mind which is a worse fate than death.

    That aside, the Champion storyline is really rushing the whole "Unify everyone in Core Tyria for the finale in End of Dragons" plot. I know the Elder Dragon story is ending in EoD or the living world after it so they can make way for a new storyline but I feel they could have spread this a bit out into the EoD era contents once the Commander returns back to Tyria after his/her journey in Cantha to be part of the finale plot. Forcing all of this now really make it feels forced for skipping this plot fast as possible sake.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    I know the Elder Dragon story is ending in EoD or the living world after it so they can make way for a new storyline but I feel they could have spread this a bit out into the EoD era contents once the Commander returns back to Tyria after his/her journey in Cantha to be part of the finale plot. Forcing all of this now really make it feels forced for skipping this plot fast as possible sake.

    How do you know it'll and the Elder Dragon story?
    For all we know, the expansion title may refer to the Canthan Dragon Empire.

  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2021

    I like the turn of the story and making braham primordius champion. Really, I prefer that than him keeping turning in circle wondering what the prophecy means what is life what is death... at least he made him useful. This is one of the best decision.

    Each is opinion, but I enjoyed a lot fighting along destroyers against icebrood, for once they weren't against us but with us.
    But now the arcane council arc with ryland and taimi stupid plan of helping jormag don't make any sense anymore.
    We have super fire braham that can protect Rata Sum with its destroyers now, hope they aren't that dum and that arcan council rally us against jormag.

    They did what was needed, if there was an event to select which of the two dragon survive, the losing group would create an apocalypse. Have you never heard of splatoon 1/2 splatfest? 1 question. 2 choice/camp possibles. Every one wants its camp to win frenatically.
    If Jormag is killed, it allows a depths of tyria living world/expansion with possibility of central transfer chamber, more dwarves, asura ruins, volcanic or underground maps.
    If Primordius is killed, it is more snowy maps in the north and potentially charr lands and woodland cascades. No dwarf. No volcanic. No underground.

    Making each dragon having a champion and not dying preserve the status quo of the possibility of having an LS / exapansion later exploring further each of those dragon domain. (Well we saw some snowy map, but no primordius map yet).

    Like Kossage said above through, I would like to see obsidian destroyers like in Calx Lab. I'm also fed up of 2012 destroyers models.

    Shiny links, take a look!
    ->Ideas: Housing , Designing a new lounge , New GameMode
    ->Project: ASURAN/PRIMORDIUS EXPANSION available on WIKI.
    ->NEW: Crucible of Eternity path 4: Legacy on WIKI
    ->NEW Asurapedia

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    What happened with Braham seemed like Arenanet didn't have a single scrap of an idea on how to continue this abomination of a story and just took the weirdest and worst idea straight from the forums.

    That was almost word for word my thought too

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So what part of Primordus were we seeing? Was that the top his head with the face/snout under lava?

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2021

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    I know the Elder Dragon story is ending in EoD or the living world after it so they can make way for a new storyline but I feel they could have spread this a bit out into the EoD era contents once the Commander returns back to Tyria after his/her journey in Cantha to be part of the finale plot. Forcing all of this now really make it feels forced for skipping this plot fast as possible sake.

    How do you know it'll and the Elder Dragon story?
    For all we know, the expansion title may refer to the Canthan Dragon Empire.

    If I remember right the developers mentioned EoD Era is bring in the finale for Elder Dragon's storyline, forgot where, since the last of the Elder Dragons maybe defeated during that EoD era. However, they never specify when in EoD era so it is most likely going to be a Living World story set after EoD.

    The best guess considering this is that we deal with Cantha in EoD then the living world after may focus on dealing with DSD and/or Primordus and/or Jormag if these two or only one survive Icebrood Saga.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2021

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    I know the Elder Dragon story is ending in EoD or the living world after it so they can make way for a new storyline but I feel they could have spread this a bit out into the EoD era contents once the Commander returns back to Tyria after his/her journey in Cantha to be part of the finale plot. Forcing all of this now really make it feels forced for skipping this plot fast as possible sake.

    How do you know it'll and the Elder Dragon story?
    For all we know, the expansion title may refer to the Canthan Dragon Empire.

    If I remember right the developers mentioned EoD Era is bring in the finale for Elder Dragon's storyline, forgot where, since the last of the Elder Dragons maybe defeated during that EoD era. However, they never specify when in EoD era so it is most likely going to be a Living World story set after EoD.

    The quote I saw never actually said it was concluding the Dragon story once and for all

    "No, this does not mean the end of the story. I'm not going to give you spoilers, but all of our Living World seasons have been building toward this. We've been working on this for a long time. In the meantime, we’re having lots of fun reading all your ideas about where the story is heading. Speculate away!"

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2021

    @hugo.4705 said:
    I like the turn of the story and making braham primordius champion. Really, I prefer that than him keeping turning in circle wondering what the prophecy means what is life what is death... at least he made him useful. This is one of the best decision.

    thanks, i did not played yet, but i liked heard this(i dont mind spoilers, im a older person). im jumping to play it asap.

    A confident Braham, with a clean state of mind, without any further doubt or insecurity. its all we need now.

    this is that i defended here https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/124563/braham-can-have-redemption-and-become-interesting

    -- Atlantean Sword --
    The secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, Conan. You must learn its discipline. For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts..." [Points to sword] "This you can trust."

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    What happened with Braham seemed like Arenanet didn't have a single scrap of an idea on how to continue this abomination of a story and just took the weirdest and worst idea straight from the forums.

    That was almost word for word my thought too

    Tbf isnt this being settup sonce champions 1?

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The writting felt weird at times, like when aurene felt so conflicted with jormag but then helped braham go to primordus anyways and enabling a double kill to happen. Also the transition from seeing what braham did to the olmakhan meeting was so weirdly paced, like its literally the "oh no, anyways" meme.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    So what part of Primordus were we seeing? Was that the top his head with the face/snout under lava?

    I bet you that was his upper part of his head but he was likely downscaled regardless. They do mention he changed alot in apearance so ehh...

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    So what part of Primordus were we seeing? Was that the top his head with the face/snout under lava?

    Kinda looks like Primordus is taken on characteristics of Kralk, Mordremoth and maybe Zhaitan?

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2021

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    So... Basically, PoF was pointless? What's different now, compared to what Balthazar was trying to do in LS3?
    Sure... Maybe Aurene can somehow replace multiple dragons, but the characters don't know that! How is that not a topic they discuss? Isn't that kind of important, after we spent years arguing we can't simply kill any more dragons?

    Oof, whatever.

    Yes, agreed.

    I am also curious to the change from Grand Niece to little Sister. That seemed a bit jarring.

    Jormag not caring about frozen people possibly being tortured was an interesting twist. Whatever else, the writers have done well to define very opposite Dragons - one calculated and manipulative the other little more than a barely sentient animal.

    The upcoming Kaiju battle should at least be spectacular even if most of the story has been underwhelming

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Zola.6197Zola.6197 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah, I am unhappy with the direction the story is taking. I feel just about as gaslit by the devs regarding this “balance is fake” thing as Jormag is gaslighting Aurene lol.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2021

    @Weindrasi.3805 said:
    As usual, people complain about Braham. Reminds me of Rytlock's comment about the Flame Legion to be honest--something about an inability to move on and a repetition of the same outdated stuff over and over? Yeah.

    People suggesting this is some last ditch effort for relevance on arenanet's part haven't been paying attention. Braham has been building toward this since BEFORE Icebrood Saga started. Remember he broke the tooth of Jormag with a fire-enchanted bow. Then, he had to prove himself to the corrupted Spirits of Ox/Wolverine/Eagle and force their cooperation in Bjora Marches. This was the same thing he did to Primord during this release. His experiences have been training him up to this the entire time. And, in spite of the power difference between a Spirt of the Wild and an Elder Dragon, I think it wouldn't necessarily be a huge step up for Braham to prove himself to Primord because--on a cognitive level--Primord is probably very similar to Ox or Wolverine... right down to the fact that Primord is also corrupted.

    Heck, even the fire/ice symbolism is a reflection of how Braham has dealt with grief and hardship verses how Ryland does. Braham has coped with pain by becoming angry--sometimes so passionately angry, he directs that rage toward the wrong people and makes dumb choices. Braham runs on emotions--his entire character arc has been learning how to harness the strengths and account for the weaknesses of being an emotional thinker. By contrast, Ryland copes with pain by shutting off his emotions and becoming cold. He learns how others think and learns to manipulate them--but he suppresses his own pain so harshly that he also loses empathy and passion. So, he is the opposite to Braham. Jormag likes Ryland so much because Ryland copes with pain in the same way Jormag has coped with corruption. And we will probably find that Braham's effort to become Primord's champion was successful for the same reason--he deals with pain like Primord deals with corruption--through explosive emotion. So it's safe to say--Arenanet has intended Braham to become Primord's champion for a long, long time... at least since HoT.

    Now, people who dislike the direction of the story are entitled to their opinion. But I, for one, appreciate the subtle "signs" we have been given since early in Braham's development, pointing to the events of this release. It can't appeal to everyone--no story can--but it isn't sudden, and it isn't poorly thought out.

    My complaint is not because I dislike Braham as I have been very open I enjoy Braham as a character since he has been the most open with the commander.

    My complaint is that they are setting him up to be killed off in the storyline when they could have chosen a different path that ended without Braham at the edge of being killed off in the future events. Braham finally gotten over most of his issues in life and finally faced the mistakes of his past but now when he has finally started to grow up and move forward, Anet is setting him up to be killed off. There could have been another way without setting him up to die that would have allowed him to retire from the story without being killed off like Rox did when she joined the Olmakhan and reduced mostly to cameos once in a while.

    This feels as if they are just appeasing the vocal people who wanted a reason to kill off Braham simply because they hated Braham.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I mean, honestly, I just played the whole episode and I still have no idea what's going on. We get 2 lines of dialogue that seem like they're meant to progress the story but none of it makes any sense. Konig kind of summed it up for me.

    We have Aurene and Jormag talking.. with this awkward pause every few seconds where Aurene's being "interrupted" but then Jormag's voice takes like 20 seconds to start..

    That entire conversation was about the balance with Jormag talking about the balance being bad, mentioning Aurene as tis "grandniece" multiple times, so I'm assuming it's just further reinforcing that although Jormag and Primordus are twins, all of the elder dragons are brothers and sisters?

    Jormag talks about the balance chaining it to this "animal." Which, I assumed meant maybe Bangar? But the balance didn't do that, JORMAG chose Bangar. So what did it mean by being "chained to this animal?" Unless it's referring to Jormag's body.. the dragon.. and Jormag is actually just.. this essence of the All in a dragon vessel?

    Then later we get this whole Braham thing.. exchanging witty banter with the spirits of the wild.. that just spent who knows how long being harvested by Jormag.. only to rush right into the den of ANOTHER elder dragon with the only explanation being that Primordus is... dumb or something? And that they're going to become somekind of mind to guide Primordus? But it doesn't work so they need Braham to become a champion to help bind him?

    Like, why does this story feel like a game of Madlibs?

    And then Braham just shows up in a DRM and superman jumps away at the end with no dialogue? lmao.

  • DarcShriek.5829DarcShriek.5829 Member ✭✭✭

    @radda.8920 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Well we see the Tengu as an allied faction, and we know there are three more. The Olmakhan seem to be another. who will the last two be? Kodan I hope is one of them.

    skritt and no idea for the last one

    Kodan will be an ally. There's an achievement for collecting their supply boxes.