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Champions Chapter 3 [spoiler discussion]

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  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2021

    @Bast.7253 said:
    I mean, honestly, I just played the whole episode and I still have no idea what's going on. We get 2 lines of dialogue that seem like they're meant to progress the story but none of it makes any sense. Konig kind of summed it up for me.

    We have Aurene and Jormag talking.. with this awkward pause every few seconds where Aurene's being "interrupted" but then Jormag's voice takes like 20 seconds to start..

    That entire conversation was about the balance with Jormag talking about the balance being bad, mentioning Aurene as tis "grandniece" multiple times, so I'm assuming it's just further reinforcing that although Jormag and Primordus are twins, all of the elder dragons are brothers and sisters?

    Jormag talks about the balance chaining it to this "animal." Which, I assumed meant maybe Bangar? But the balance didn't do that, JORMAG chose Bangar. So what did it mean by being "chained to this animal?" Unless it's referring to Jormag's body.. the dragon.. and Jormag is actually just.. this essence of the All in a dragon vessel?

    Then later we get this whole Braham thing.. exchanging witty banter with the spirits of the wild.. that just spent who knows how long being harvested by Jormag.. only to rush right into the den of ANOTHER elder dragon with the only explanation being that Primordus is... dumb or something? And that they're going to become somekind of mind to guide Primordus? But it doesn't work so they need Braham to become a champion to help bind him?

    Like, why does this story feel like a game of Madlibs?

    And then Braham just shows up in a DRM and superman jumps away at the end with no dialogue? lmao.

    I think that scene with Jormag is meant to show her type of Insanity being a bipolar disorder type of insanity.

    Jormag is all kind and nice but then have mental outbursts due to how viewing any other species as lowly animals. She always had this habit of looking down on the other species of the world within her own wording in past dialogues in the stroyline though not everyone will pick up on it since she phrase her words in ways of trying to care about them but it is more acts of pity for beings lower than her.

    As for Braham, I say his current lack at speaking shows how little amount of himself is left at this point with what is left being focused on Jormag to guide Primordus. We do see him attempt to talk but his mind at this point has become so primal due to Primordus influence he can't even properly talk anymore. All Braham can do is grunt and say a few words at this point due to become more of a beast now.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    What happened with Braham seemed like Arenanet didn't have a single scrap of an idea on how to continue this abomination of a story and just took the weirdest and worst idea straight from the forums.

    They no doubt came up with the idea before it popped up on the forums, given all the DRMs were in the gw.dat with the first Champions chapter, but this story direction is just... makes zero kitten sense in every way. Worst yet, they made Braham an actual Mary Sue by there being literally no dissent or disagreement with his actions, despite the fact that we just spent the entire season stopping Bangar from trying to do the exact same thing that Braham chose to do.

    Yes, let's use beings made of pure magic to control a being that eat magic and have endless hunger for said magic by inserting said beings made of pure magic into the Elder Dragon. That's smart.

    Yes, Primordus needs a champion, despite the fact that we've literally been killing his champions left and right. Yes, Primordus will be led by his champion, despite the fact that we spent an entire year saying that's not how it works. Yes, let's succumb to the powers of an Elder Dragon who's only interaction with mortals is pure genocide and hope it doens't strip away all of Braham's free will because he has the power of Spirits of the Wild by his side. Yes, let's continue to ignore the fact we just spent five years establishing the notion that we need at least four Elder Dragons alive at one point (and even antagonized Balthazar over this fact) and go ahead and kill two at the same time - ignoring the fact that the entire reason for Season 3's finale was because we didn't want that to happen in a more peaceful manner than two literal kaijus duking it out Godzilla style.

    What.
    The.
    kitten.

    This isn't just activley contradicting older lore, it's contradicting lore established from the current season and even within the fractured episode of Champions itself.

    I was flabbergasted over the sylvari reveal and how Anet had put a lot of effort to establish firmly that sylvari are very different from dragon minions to the point where there weren't even no similarities, but blatant contradictions to the theory, yet still went with the revelation, but this... this is by far worst. Because if there isn't some major plot twist, we're not just contradicting established lore, we're making the half of the entire game's plot until now pointless and redundant drama.

    This is story writing on par to Game of Thrones Season 8. Hell, I can almost mirror it with subpar subversions of expectations (that don't work because they were brutally obvious about these subversions), reversal of character development (in this case, Braham's Season 4 development getting reverted back into his Season 3 whiny self), and blatant contradiction of its own dialogue.

    I've been hesitant about bothering to continue into the story with buying EoD, and was actually thinking the story would get better once ANet finally stops having enough source material to just pull the nostalgia factor, and hoping that despite the constant turnover of lead writers that there'd be a semblance of consistency growing once writers get to do their own original thing in the world.

    But seriously now. I don't think I'll be buying End of Dragons if the writers can't even maintain consistency within their own releases.

    The only sollace in this whole episode is that the commander is either oblious to what ppl are doing and or doesnt agree the whole way but god kitten Aurene has sole serious moodswings during the episode.

  • Hypnowulf.7403Hypnowulf.7403 Member ✭✭✭

    Jormag isn't bipolar. It isn't madness to want to be free from abuse. I mean, what they talk of being chained to isn't Bangar, it's Primordus. They've had to feel his aggression all their life and they just want to be free from it. They're traumatised by his abusive ways, as I've said prior, and an abused person can find it hard to extricate their freedom from the death of their abuser.

    This hits really close to home for me as someone who went through an abusive period. The abused accused of madness, claimed as a burden, when all they want to do is be free of pain and ensure that others don't have to feel that same pain. The reason that Jormag rushed to place people in cryostasis is because they couldn't stand it anymore, they care as much as they say they do. Jormag's "madness" is trauma.

    It's funny because so many of my life's experiences are echoed in Jormag's story. This is painful to talk about but I guess I'm going to do that. Jormag is salty about mortals in a way that tugs at my heart—I'm not fond of most humans. The reason why? In my life's experiences, the majority will be taken in by dark triad monsters, they'll enable them, turning a blind eye to that monster's evil. If that monster is abusing someone? They blame the victim.

    I'm a highly sensitive person and I have to applaud Debra Wilson's voice acting because it's managing to hurt me. I can hear the pain in Jormag's voice whenever they talk about Primordus, it's obvious what's going on. The only reason they haven't spelled it out for everyone is because a.) their pride, and b.) it's really difficult to talk about traumas.

    That Jormag sounds feminine is another factor aswell—victim-blaming is far more likely to occur if the victim isn't male. That's statistically a thing, there's evidence of that stretchin back decades and it still hasn't been fixed. The bias is that the woman must be being irrational, crazy. Even mad, perhaps.

    Jormag has threatened to freeze the world prior as a way to spare it from Primordus's abuses. What they did at Lake Doric was them coming through on that, not willing to put up with Primordus anymore. The thing is? No matter how you look at it, if Jormag had done nothing, most of Lake Doric's villagers would've died. By doing what Jormag did, they saved them from the vindictive abuses of Primordus.

    Marjory pointed out as well that Primordus's actions are incredibly vindictive. That's a trait abusers have—they're naturally vindictive. There's a large body of study on this as well that you can look into, that abusers are inherently prone to rage and vindictive behaviours. Which shouldn't be too surprising but there you go.

    This story feels like reliving my worst experiences vicariously through the abstraction of dragons and I can tell you that it isn't great. I imagine that some of you probably figured out what my particular stake is with this story already.

    Having negative feelings and a distaste for suffering is very common amongst sensitive victims of abuse. I liked Jormag from the first time I heard them in the Icebrood Saga trailer. There was something about the way they said "suffering." It wasn't angry, nor misleading, nor manipulative. It was impained. They really didn't like suffering, it bothered them immensely. And yes, Debra Wilson really pulled that off. She's a bloody brilliant voice actor to be sure. I became fond of Jormag almost immediately for that reason.

    In this chapter, just... hearing the way they speak of Primordus? If you have any experience with abuse, you're bound to hear it in their voice. I don't know how you couldn't. They're not angry about being chained to Primordus, they're traumatised. They're anxious, they're in pain, they're lashing out. They just want to be free.

    It's not madness to want to be free from abuse, so I really feel for them. I really do.

    No story has ever managed to hit me this hard. I think it's in part how everything was setup so that the majority would blame the victim, and once victim-blaming starts it's just a ball that keeps rolling without anyone ever stopping to question it.

    I just want everything to be okay for Jormag. They deserve to be free of pain.

    Ah, this couldn't be any more personal.

    What's really funny about this is that I was abused so much that I'm traumagenic, plural. You might've noticed that, too. There are distinct consciousnesses at work here, I am not a single entity. DID, if you really prefer that. Early on, Tom Abernathy confirmed that Jormag is based on plural experiences. This couldn't be any more personal...

    Anyway, one of my headmates is a point of comfort to me—an imaginary friend I had as a child. They were a dragon with the power of mind and their goal was to do all they could to halt suffering, often by forcing impulse control on the monsters who had none. This is why I've spoken about impulse control, too, as often abusers are those with dark triad traits that make them very impulsive. I've also had experiences, as I mentioned, with humanity acting as a herd in impulsive ways. I was caught in a human stampede which left me with a cracked skull, hospitalised for some time.

    I know trauma when I see it and the "madness" of Jormag is that they're traumatised af. The thing is? I hope I'm right. This story has hit me hard emotionally. I don't want it to be another example in the media of blaming the victim for experiencing trauma. There are too many of those already and people don't need to be taught to do that more.

    Just my opinion, anyway. I feel for Jormag. I hope they'll be okay because this story hurts. It's just too on point, too accurate.

  • Zok.4956Zok.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2021

    Jormag isn't bipolar. It isn't madness to want to be free from abuse. () Jormag's "madness" is trauma.

    Maybe it is. But Jormag is also now trying to abuse others. That Jormag maybe was abused and is traumatized can be an explanation for this behaviour, but not an excuse.

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  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    Aurene being the Prismatic Dragon will be the solution to the balance issue, that's pretty certain to us as players now.
    But my issue here is that the characters in universe don't know that. There have been a few hints, but they never discuss it, nobody is testing the hypothesis small-scale. Why not? They have run similar experiments in LS3, why not now?

    How can they act like this, putting everything in danger, without testing anything beforehand, just vaguely hoping they interpreted Glint correctly this time?!

    I kinda wish we had left the civil war to the charr and the spirits to Braham and stayed out of the season, searching for replacements instead... Maybe finally went to the Pale Tree and asked her about replacing Mordremoth, even.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @PseudoNewb.5468 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    Jormag talks about the balance chaining it to this "animal." Which, I assumed meant maybe Bangar? But the balance didn't do that, JORMAG chose Bangar. So what did it mean by being "chained to this animal?" Unless it's referring to Jormag's body.. the dragon.. and Jormag is actually just.. this essence of the All in a dragon vessel?

    Pretty sure the "animal" is Primordus. Jormag previously stated how they are in a prison because of Primordu's.

    Anyone notice that Aurene said Jormag's frozen spell is using corrupted magic? Does this mean that the frozen ice is indeed as mixture of ice and crystalline magic? I am not sure what Aurene means by saying "corrupted" magic. It doesn't seem to be the same meaning of corrupted as say when used in "dragon corruption". Not sure what that means. Seems like the writers may be getting ahead of themselves with dialog based on things that where never explained well.

    Yes, I noticed this comment too and my mind went to Jormag’s recent absorption of Kralkatorrik’s magic.

    They even stated in the instance with Braham of the Infection of Magic that Primordus absorbed from dead gods and fellow dragons.

  • My issue with the story right now and for some time has been the lack of definition regarding our characters' main goal, and what we have to do in order to achieve it. There don't seem to be a clear distinction between "Preserving Tyria" and "Coping with the Elder Dragons threat" anymore. Do we have to destroy, or negate the threat? One time it seems that balance is the cornerstone of the story, the next time we're back to killing dragons. Aurene's behavior in this chapter further strengthen my interrogations.

    I don't necessarily hate the story. I just feel confused.

  • Tseison.4659Tseison.4659 Member ✭✭✭

    I knew Braham was going to become primordius champion, it was way too obvious. Now I get this feeling that the last chapter will just be where we “mobilize” our allies into a split/double fight between Jormag and Primordius’ minions and then the elder dragons appear, but we actually don’t fight them for once and their fight is just a cinematic .

    Then once the two kill eachother, the deep sea dragon swoops in and takes their power all for herself, with their champion standing atop their head and then they go off into the distance. Enter EoD.

  • @PseudoNewb.5468 said:

    Pretty sure the "animal" is Primordus. Jormag previously stated how they are in a prison because of Primordu's.

    Pretty much it seems like Jormag and Primordus represents different aspects of the mind. Jormag is analytical while Primordus is instinctual. By caaling Priomrdus an animal, they are saying Primordus is a creature that nearly completely operates on instinct. (Of course on earth, we are surprised how many animals actually do have reasoning skills beyond what our consensus has historically been). So the term animal is just used to describe something with "animal" level intelligence, Which colloquially means something that relies on more instinct than logic.

    I had the same line of thought during the opening dialogue. From my interpretation it seems as if Jormag not only see's Primordus as an animal of instinct but also see's itself above it's twin on an intellectual level, seemingly being quite resentful for being connected/paired together in the first place. I almost get the sense that while it ultimately wants to rid itself of Primordus, it deep down just wants to break the chains they both share, even if that means Primordus still lives at the end of it.

    Then again Jormag's mind doesn't seem entirely stable at this point so who knows what it actually wants at the end of all this. I don't think it even knows anymore?

  • Hypnowulf.7403Hypnowulf.7403 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't have the will to look at responses because this is hurting me quite a bit right now, I'm not in a good emotional place to do so.

    I will, however, leave this here.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/27/victim-blaming-science-behind-psychology-research

    It's an important read to understand my perspective.

  • Zola.6197Zola.6197 Member ✭✭✭✭

    At this point I don’t think we’re going to see either dragon die, and this is all more a set up for EoDs primary conflict.

    Then again, I didn’t think Braham would truly become Primordus’ champion, so I’m done trying to predict whatever the heck is happening in ANet’s writing room.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2021

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    I don't have the will to look at responses because this is hurting me quite a bit right now, I'm not in a good emotional place to do so.

    I will, however, leave this here.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/27/victim-blaming-science-behind-psychology-research

    It's an important read to understand my perspective.

    Honestly, I am not quite certain if this is a result of victim blaming. Everyone done something bad and done something good but treatment of them varies based on how attached the individual is towards that person. People can be more forgiving or less forgiving based on their own views even if a person done something far worse or far less than a lesser character we hardly know.

    At this point it is uncertain where Anet wants to take this story now until we get a clear path in End of Dragons storyline.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:
    That entire conversation was about the balance with Jormag talking about the balance being bad, mentioning Aurene as tis "grandniece" multiple times, so I'm assuming it's just further reinforcing that although Jormag and Primordus are twins, all of the elder dragons are brothers and sisters?

    I don't think it's meant to be literally, because earlier in Champions Jormag called Aurene "little sister". I think Jormag switching to grandniece is - if not simple inconsistency - meant to portray that Jormag is fed up with trying to manipulate Aurene into action and is becoming colder (no pun intended).

    Jormag talks about the balance chaining it to this "animal." Which, I assumed meant maybe Bangar? But the balance didn't do that, JORMAG chose Bangar. So what did it mean by being "chained to this animal?" Unless it's referring to Jormag's body.. the dragon.. and Jormag is actually just.. this essence of the All in a dragon vessel?

    Primordus is the "animal".

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    The Braham-Primordus thing is... interesting. It seems that the distinction that's being set up with Primordus compared to the other Elder Dragons, even Kralkatorrik, is that Primordus has always been the animalistic force of nature that acts without any overarching strategy that the Elder Dragons in general were portrayed as in prerelease marketing. Braham is, essentially, trying to pull a Snaff, controlling the dragon from within - but where Kralkatorrik did have a conscious mind (possibly two at war with each other, in fact), Primordus lacks sapience at all and might be more malleable as a result.

    The whole notion that Primordus lacks sapience makes no sense. His destroyers are clearly sapient as they've shown strategy in EotN and even the DRMs. Since the destroyers come from rock, the sapience has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere would then be Primordus or some living being corrupted by Primordus.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2021

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Worst yet, they made Braham an actual Mary Sue by there being literally no dissent or disagreement with his actions

    Except both the Commander and Aurene don't agree with Braham's actions. Aurene just says we need to accept the fact he made his choice.

    The Commander may not have agreed with the plan, but Aurene clearly did because she told him Primordus' location. And at the end of the last DRM, the Commander, Rytlock, and Efram all comment on Braham's bravery and noble sacrifice.

    Which shows that even if they didn't agree with the plan, they not only accept it, but straight up praise his actions.

    despite the fact that we just spent the entire season stopping Bangar from trying to do the exact same thing that Braham chose to do.

    Incorrect. We stopped Bangar, who was being manipulated by Jormag from the beginning(hence the corrupted items in his office, and the Boneskinner tracks outside his office) from awakening Jormag, because that is what Jormag wanted, and what Jormag was actively manipulating Bangar to accomplish. Braham's situation is the literal polar opposite of Bangar's. Bangar was a tool of Jormag from the get go, working to fulfill Jormag's desire, while Braham is making Primordus his tool, by taking advantage of Primordus's lack of intelligence.

    The Commander didn't know Bangar was being manipulated (and neither did players, even if many suspected such due to the clues you mention), and were stopping Bangar because "champions don't control the Elder Dragon" and Bangar would just "feed the charr to Jormag".

    Yes, let's use beings made of pure magic to control a being that eat magic and have endless hunger for said magic by inserting said beings made of pure magic into the Elder Dragon. That's smart.

    Fight fire with fire. The Spirits of the Wild have constantly been shown to be creatures of nearly limitless magical power, hence why the Elder Dragons have gone after them. That also makes them some of the beings beings, when their forces are combined, to combat an Elder Dragon. Just like Elder Dragons are being of pure magic, so are the gods, and the best thing to fight a Dragon with would be a god, since the god is the only thing that could stand toe to toe with it.

    The only thing here you said that's correct is that the Spirits of the Wild are creatures of nearly limitless magic.

    Yes, Primordus needs a champion, despite the fact that we've literally been killing his champions left and right.

    All of the champions we killed were non intelligent, and unable to be reasoned with. We needed a champion that had intelligence, and reason, to usefully direct Primrodus's power.

    They very much had some intelligence, as they were not only directing destroyers where to attack, but even doing feint assaults as seen in Gendarran Fields DRM. No dragon minion can be reasoned with - the entire point of dragon minions is that they lack free will. Champions included.

    The only exception are those "bonded" like the Commander, Caithe, Ryland, and Bangar. Which Primordus has no reason to do, and as evident by the story journal, didn't do. Braham was corrupted, not bonded, and "somehow" the Spirits are preventing his total corruption.

    Quality writing. "Somehow, Palpatine returned."

    Yes, Primordus will be led by his champion, despite the fact that we spent an entire year saying that's not how it works.

    Also incorrect. We said what Bangar was trying to do, which was wave the bow in front of Jormag's face, and hope Jormag bows to him because of it, wouldn't work.

    Allow me to quote:

    Crecia Stoneglow: The Elder Dragon. One of our scouts spotted it doing...something to the old Brand scars just south of here.
    Crecia Stoneglow: What are its orders?
    Character name: Aurene doesn't take orders from us. As for the Brand scars—we believe she's purifying them, for lack of a better word.

    Bangar Ruinbringer: Didn't think you'd point your heaviest artillery at us, though. Not very politic, is it.
    Character name: Aurene's not a weapon. She's taken a personal interest in repairing Kralkatorrik's damage.
    Bangar Ruinbringer: Your apology could use some work.
    Rytlock Brimstone: Commander doesn't have anything to apologize for. Aurene does what she wants.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Coming_Home#In_Grothmar_Valley

    Bangar Ruinbringer: Drakkar's death at my hands sends them all a message: I am Jormag's champion now. I alone can control the dragon.
    Character name: Jormag can't be controlled! That's not how this works.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Voice_in_the_Deep#Whispering_Depths

    "That's not how this works."

    Guess it is now.

    Yes, let's succumb to the powers of an Elder Dragon who's only interaction with mortals is pure genocide and hope it doens't strip away all of Braham's free will because he has the power of Spirits of the Wild by his side.

    Braham is doing the literal exact opposite of succumbing. The whole point of using the Spirirts of the Wild as protection is so that he doesn't succumb, so he can retain intelligence, and usefully direct Primordus's minions.

    He's allowing himself to be corrupted. Hence, "succumb to".
    He's not sure the Spirits could protect him - it's a gamble. Hence, "hope it doesn't".

    Braham managed to maintain a bit of control because he's just so awesome and capable of doing things no one else could, even beings with literal anti-corruption magic couldn't do, which borderline makes him a Mary Sue (and the praise he gets for the stupid gamble half-working lands him neatly into full Mary Suedom).

    Yes, let's continue to ignore the fact we just spent five years establishing the notion that we need at least four Elder Dragons alive at one point (and even antagonized Balthazar over this fact) and go ahead and kill two at the same time - ignoring the fact that the entire reason for Season 3's finale was because we didn't want that to happen in a more peaceful manner than two literal kaijus duking it out Godzilla style.

    They long since moved past this with the "Prismatic" Elder Dragon, aka Aurene. They even hammer this into us at the end of S4 with Kralkatorrik going on about how the energies don't conflict inside her. And this was even hinted at earlier in "All or Nothing". During the trials in Glint's lair Glint's voice talks about how the consumption of so much magic has effects on the Elder Dragons, but sharing said magic with mortals will help Aurene avoid those problems. Her sharing of magic with not only the commander(Dragon Slayer mastery) but the Crystal Bloom, and the allied factions, is key here.

    And none of that actually covers the balance of The All and how Kralkatorrik getting stronger worsened the balance, even if less than simply killing Elder Dragons. The fact we got told that we need multiple replacements from Flashpoint to All or Nothing over, and over, and over again, is now being ignored.

    Then there's as @Fenella.2634 said, that no one's bothering to test to make sure it'd work. Kind of like not bothering to replace Zhaitan and Mordremoth before killing Kralkatorrik in Season 4... But at least then we had a reason - Kralkatorrik was literally eating the Mists and there was no time to ponder and hypothesize.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2021

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The Commander may not have agreed with the plan, but Aurene clearly did because she told him Primordus' location. And at the end of the last DRM, the Commander, Rytlock, and Efram all comment on Braham's bravery and noble sacrifice.
    Which shows that even if they didn't agree with the plan, they not only accept it, but straight up praise his actions.

    A. Primordus is in the same volcano he was last time we saw him. Even if Aurene didn't tell him, he would have found out in about 5 minutes anyways. So why would she not tell him something he could easily find out regardless?
    B. Being able to recognize bravely, and sacrifice, doesn't mean you don't disagree with their overall plan.
    Now you are just casually trying to side step your original argument, which was that their no dissent or disagreement, to try to move goalposts to "well they said nice things about him!" And that is a fallacious argument.

    The Commander didn't know Bangar was being manipulated (and neither did players, even if many suspected such due to the clues you mention), and were stopping Bangar because "champions don't control the Elder Dragon" and Bangar would just "feed the charr to Jormag".

    Except players did know Bangar was being manipulated, because even Anet admitted that Jormag was talking to Bangar in the Icebrood Saga trailer. We knew he was being talked to from the beginning, and many players were talking about back then. As I recall, you stomped your feet around for months saying it isn't true, and then had to back off when Bangar himself admitted he was likely manipulated from the beginning. And our character had some inkling of it since the prologue, as Crecia states that Ice Constructs don't make themselves, Shaman's do, and that something larger is going on here. Who has ice shamans? Svanir. Who do the Svanir work for? Jormag.

    The only thing here you said that's correct is that the Spirits of the Wild are creatures of nearly limitless magic.

    I like how you make no effort to actually counter of the points made, and just go "NUH UH!"

    They very much had some intelligence, as they were not only directing destroyers where to attack, but even doing feint assaults as seen in Gendarran Fields DRM. No dragon minion can be reasoned with - the entire point of dragon minions is that they lack free will. Champions included.
    The only exception are those "bonded" like the Commander, Caithe, Ryland, and Bangar. Which Primordus has no reason to do, and as evident by the story journal, didn't do. Braham was corrupted, not bonded, and "somehow" the Spirits are preventing his total corruption.
    Quality writing. "Somehow, Palpatine returned."

    Except they didn't have intelligence, and Taimi even points this out during the Metrica Province DRM when the champion goes in the exact opposite direction from the gateway to Rata Sum. Even in the Gendarran Fields DRM, Jhavi mentions how the destroyers actions in trying to attack the Ascalon Settlement doesn't make sense, and comments maybe Primordus just thrives on chaos. Not to mention, even animals like wolves know basic unit tactics, and can use feints and lures while others surround their opponent. Basic battle tactics are something dumb animals can learn. That isn't indicative of true intelligence.

    I also like how you immediately contradict yourself here saying champions don't have free will.... except this sub category of champions that do! Its like yeah, that subcategory does, hence why we needed a champion of that sub category instead of a normal one. Which is what Braham is basically emulating.

    Likewise, we already saw corrupted minions maintain, or regain, some semblance of free will. All you have to do is look back earlier in the Icebrood Saga with the other Spirits of the Wild. They are corrupted by Jormag's power, yet still manage to retain their intelligence, and even fight back against his control over them. Creatures of overwhelming power have already been established to be able to maintain some free will, even when corrupted. And those were the lesser spirits, Braham has the greater spirit's power on his side, and likely many of the lesser ones also since he already had to prove themselves, and gain their powers, to open the shrine door in Jormag Rising.

    Allow me to quote:

    And nothing in your first quote deals with anything I said, or about the issue in general. And your second quote just deals with exactly what I already pointed out. Bangar believed he could become the Dragon's champion, and control it, by killing Drakkar, and waving the bow in its face. What Braham doing is something else entirely. You can try to reductio ad absurdum everything you come across, by removing all context, and the specifics behind it, but that isn't a valid argument.

    He's allowing himself to be corrupted. Hence, "succumb to".

    That isn't what the word succumb means. Succumb literally means a failure to resist. Hes doing the exact opposite of failing, by using the greater spirit's power to walk on that razor thin edge.

    He's not sure the Spirits could protect him - it's a gamble. Hence, "hope it doesn't".

    Its not a hope, hes already seen the lesser spirits of the wild resist Jormag's influence earlier in the season.

    Braham managed to maintain a bit of control because he's just so awesome and capable of doing things no one else could, even beings with literal anti-corruption magic couldn't do, which borderline makes him a Mary Sue (and the praise he gets for the stupid gamble half-working lands him neatly into full Mary Suedom).

    That isn't what the term Mary Sue means. A Mary sue is a character who doesn't make mistakes, is liked by everyone, and is able to overcome anything by themselves. Braham has made mistakes, isn't liked by everyone(even in universe), and is only able to do what he does thanks to the Commander, and the power of the Spirirts of wild... all of which was built up since his character was introduced.

    So, literally everything you said here is wrong, by the very definition of the words you are trying to use.

    And none of that actually covers the balance of The All and how Kralkatorrik getting stronger worsened the balance, even if less than simply killing Elder Dragons. The fact we got told that we need multiple replacements from Flashpoint to All or Nothing over, and over, and over again, is now being ignored.

    Except it does Konig, and they already explained it in-game to boot.

    Kralk getting stronger worsened the balance because the old Elder Dragons were beings that horded magic for themselves, using it to increase their own power. You needed the six of them to prevent too much magic from being in the world at once, but also to prevent any one of them from getting so much magic that they become too magically powerful themselves, to the point they could do what Kralk was doing like eating the Mists, and threatening to destroy reality. All the previous comments made by the player character, and our allies, on needing 6 were based on the knowledge we had at the time, which was this is how it had to be. Aurene fundamentally destroyed that entire notion by being an elder dragon that DOESN'T horde magic for herself. She shares it with everyone around her, making it to where she doesn't get too much power to disrupt the balance, and no one else gets too much power to go crazy like the former bounties were.

    This was the whole point of Glint's dialog about Aurene needing to share magic instead of horde it, and Kralk's comments to his torment that Aurene is the first of her kind. She is fundamentally different from the other Elder Dragons, and how they maintained the cycle.

    Then there's as @Fenella.2634 said, that no one's bothering to test to make sure it'd work. Kind of like not bothering to replace Zhaitan and Mordremoth before killing Kralkatorrik in Season 4... But at least then we had a reason - Kralkatorrik was literally eating the Mists and there was no time to ponder and hypothesize.

    We don't need to "test" to make sure it works... we have already seen that it works in-game.

    Throughout season 3 and 4 the excess magical buildup was causing unbound, and volatile, magic to appear all over the place, and caused super powerful ley infused creatures to pop up everywhere. Since Aurene's ascension we have only seen volatile magic appear in places she has used her powers(like purifying the Brand), and all the big boss monsters have been either just normal monsters(those in Grothmaw) or powered by harvested energy from the corrupted spirits of the wild, or from Jormag's direct power(Bjora, and Drizzlewood) We see this even in the DRMs. These stronger dragon champions lack the ley powers of ley infused branded bounties from LWS4.

    Aurene's ascension has, quite demonstrably, reset things back to pre LWS3 levels.

  • Weindrasi.3805Weindrasi.3805 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Bangar Ruinbringer: Drakkar's death at my hands sends them all a message: I am Jormag's champion now. I alone can control the dragon.
    Character name: Jormag can't be controlled! That's not how this works.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Voice_in_the_Deep#Whispering_Depths

    "That's not how this works."

    The Commander isn't some sort of 4th-wall-breaking Speaker of Truth. Just because the Commander said "that's not how it works" does not mean So Shall It Be--it's just the Commander's perception.
    The Commander was right in that specific situation--you don't become an Elder Dragon Champion by killing the previous Champion. Nor do you get control over an Elder Dragon because you killed its minion--that's akin to thinking you can control Bangar because you killed Crecia or Rytlock... it's nonsense logic, and the Commander saying "that's not how it works" was just a reflection of him/her being baffled by Bangar's nonsense.

    However, just because Bangar is nuts doesn't mean that a Champion can't command a dragon. Nothing in lore makes it impossible. A Dragon makes itself vulnerable by sharing power with a Champion. While in most cases, a Champion isn't in a position to exploit that vulnerability, the vulnerability exists. Glint used the vulnerability to escape Kralk, and the Commander used it to heavily shape Aurene's development and worldview.

    Also, I don't know why you are screaming 'LORE BREAK, LORE BREAK' this quickly--Arenanet has not forgotten the lore about not killing more elder dragons, and they aren't going to throw it out the window. Take a deep breath and wait for the rest of the story to play out.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2021

    I mean, there's also the whole... the Gods left because of the Elder Dragons and didn't want to go to war with them because of the cataclysmic effects it could have.

    We have the gods fighting Abaddon and the creation of the crystal desert.

    Now we have two equally substantial magical beings pitted against each other in the form of Primordus and Jormag, and everyone's just cheering the plan on like that same potential for disaster is for some reason not applicable in this scenario.

    The ONLY way I can see any of this making sense is if the vision in Kesho talking about two dragons being eliminated at once, was actually referring not to Mordremoth and Zhaitan, but Primordus and Jormag being truly killed at the same time. Thus continuing the prophecy and Aurene's ascension crucial to having a different outcome after the fact. Even still, that doesn't account for the fact that we knew killing elder dragons was bad way before that vision.

    So I don't know.

    Let's just look back at the entirety of Path of Fire and this saga....

    We went to Elona to prevent Balth from killing Kralk because we can't afford to lose anymore elder dragons. Now we're deadset on eliminating both, apparently. The commander, Aurene, nobody seems to have any real qualms with this plan.

    In Icebrood we tried to stop Bangar from becoming a champion of Jormag because 1.) He thought he could control Jormag but we said.. no.. no.. that's not how that works! We freed the spirits from being siphoned by Jormag.

    Now, Braham comes in, hand delivers the spirits to Primordus and becomes a wiling champion that's somehow able to direct Primordus' troops/control him to some degree, and everyone is just praising him. DESPITE how much people were against the idea of the commander having an alliance with Aurene and viewing Aurene as just another evil elder dragon.

    But yeah, we're fine with two elder dragons going at war with each other (despite losing even one elder dragon being cataclysmic) and we have a history of supremely powerful magic beings waging war with each other having devastating effects on an entire continent. But now we're just peachy keen with inciting a war between the two now.

    I'm sure in retrospect this will all make sense, but the scope of this story feels entirely too large to be trying to tell in a few lines of voiceovers over a 10 minute story mission and it just feels jarringly inconsistent.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2021

    @Weindrasi.3805 said:
    The Commander isn't some sort of 4th-wall-breaking Speaker of Truth. Just because the Commander said "that's not how it works" does not mean So Shall It Be--it's just the Commander's perception.

    This is a problem a lot of people have, and I've seen this issue crop up in pretty much every game series I've ever played. People have a bad habit of taking everything every NPC says as some word of god, 100% literal, undeniable, truth, when no writer writes NPCs that way. Everything is written from the perspective of that character, at tat time, with the knowledge they have at that moment. Just because something comes up later to prove them wrong doesn't make it a retcon, or them forgetting their own lore, it just means that person was wrong.

    Most good writers intentionally capitalize on this for the sake of realism in the game world. Bethesda for instance had admitted to knowingly putting in contradictory versions of the same story, and have NPCs say contradictory things about various aspects of the world, to represent people's individual bias, and perception on things like the gods, or magic.

    Also, I don't know why you are screaming 'LORE BREAK, LORE BREAK' this quickly--Arenanet has not forgotten the lore about not killing more elder dragons, and they aren't going to throw it out the window. Take a deep breath and wait for the rest of the story to play out.

    Same reason most people do it I believe. "we live in a society" where its become culturally fashionable to teat everything every company does as if its some giant, sinister, conspiracy, or out of sheer incompetence. This is only facilitated(especially in the gaming scene) by internet hate mongers like most popular gaming youtubers who are constantly putting out videos hyping up how you should video companies because they sneezed wrong, and other ridiculous nonsense. Most people legitimately want to hate things, and so will do everything in their power to justify their need to hate things. "Lore break", "retcon" and other similar buzzwords/phrases are easy methods of doing so.

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2021

    The absence of volatile magic since Aurene replaced Kralkatorrik is one of the hints I meant.
    However, this just means that for now the balance holds. This does in no way prove killing two dragons won't be a problem.
    We as players can be fairly certain the world will be fine long-term, but the characters don't know about a Cantha expac... It's important to not confuse our knowledge with what characters in universe know.

    Wouldn't have hurt if Taimi and Gorrik had spent some time offscreen rebuilding a certain machine, running a few simulations and updating DW, no? Instead of taking drastic measures like waking up dragons just hoping for the best.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Aurene won't replace multiple EDs. It's not my preferred way to solve the story, but it seems to be what is going on and it doesn't come out of nowhere.
    My issue is the lack of discussion within the main cast. Replacing EDs has been our main goal basically since LS3, now apparently the facts are changing and nobody cares?

    Edit 2: Even Glint originally wanted Aurene to just replace Mordremoth, Vlast to replace Zhaitan and herself as a replacement for Kralkatorrik.
    Even she didn't foresee that Aurene could or should replace more than one dragon. Maybe she can replace three and that's awesome, but assuming she can do five or six just as well is pretty reckless. Without out of game knowledge, anyway.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    The absence of volatile magic since Aurene replaced Kralkatorrik is one of the hints I meant.
    However, this just means that for now the balance holds. This does in no way prove killing two dragons won't be a problem.
    We as players can be fairly certain the world will be fine long-term, but the characters don't know about a Cantha expac... It's important to not confuse our knowledge with what characters in universe know.

    Wouldn't have hurt if Taimi and Gorrik had spent some time offscreen rebuilding a certain machine, running a few simulations and updating DW, no? Instead of taking drastic measures like waking up dragons just hoping for the best.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Aurene won't replace multiple EDs. It's not my preferred way to solve the story, but it seems to be what is going on and it doesn't come out of nowhere.
    My issue is the lack of discussion within the main cast. Replacing EDs has been our main goal basically since LS3, now apparently the facts are changing and nobody cares?

    Edit 2: Even Glint originally wanted Aurene to just replace Mordremoth, Vlast to replace Zhaitan and herself as a replacement for Kralkatorrik.
    Even she didn't foresee that Aurene could or should replace more than one dragon. Maybe she can replace three and that's awesome, but assuming she can do five or six just as well is pretty reckless. Without out of game knowledge, anyway.

    Well we're at a point now where Braham MAY be the solution to Primordus, but we still have Jormag to contend with and it seems like Jormag became considerably more transparent and hostile in this latest release, likely leaving us little choice for resolution outside of killing it.

    There's the possibility that Braham and Primordus somehow manage to keep Jormag in-line and retreat, but given the hints about Tyria being altered after the events of the Saga it seems that one or more of these dragons is likely to die.

    And if Jormag dies, would that power boost to Primordus not jeopardize Braham or the spirit's ability to have control over Primordus? Especially now that he's fully awake and unable to filter out magic like he did with Zhaitan and Mordremoth?

    If they both die, the only solution at this point would be Aurene.

    Aurene's question of, "Why do they all go mad?" may be hinting at her considering the possibility that she may need to actually get involved moving forward. Perhaps she's held back because she's trying to run those simulations and understand it herself. Perhaps she's afraid of losing control.

    So they may touch on that as the story progresses. At this rate, given the timeframe that they have to deliver the story and the current method they have to deliver it being smaller in scope, I can fully expect Aurene to be absorbing both dragon's energy with her prompting us to quickly find more replacements in Cantha. There just isn't really any other option right now.

    Given the masteries we have with the final being "Dragon Slayer," I think that's just more confirmation that one or more are going to die. I'm honestly hoping both, if for no other reason than to have Braham exit the story entirely.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Weindrasi.3805 said:
    The Commander isn't some sort of 4th-wall-breaking Speaker of Truth. Just because the Commander said "that's not how it works" does not mean So Shall It Be--it's just the Commander's perception.

    This is a problem a lot of people have, and I've seen this issue crop up in pretty much every game series I've ever played. People have a bad habit of taking everything every NPC says as some word of god, 100% literal, undeniable, truth, when no writer writes NPCs that way. Everything is written from the perspective of that character, at tat time, with the knowledge they have at that moment. Just because something comes up later to prove them wrong doesn't make it a retcon, or them forgetting their own lore, it just means that person was wrong.

    Most good writers intentionally capitalize on this for the sake of realism in the game world. Bethesda for instance had admitted to knowingly putting in contradictory versions of the same story, and have NPCs say contradictory things about various aspects of the world, to represent people's individual bias, and perception on things like the gods, or magic.

    Also, I don't know why you are screaming 'LORE BREAK, LORE BREAK' this quickly--Arenanet has not forgotten the lore about not killing more elder dragons, and they aren't going to throw it out the window. Take a deep breath and wait for the rest of the story to play out.

    Same reason most people do it I believe. "we live in a society" where its become culturally fashionable to teat everything every company does as if its some giant, sinister, conspiracy, or out of sheer incompetence. This is only facilitated(especially in the gaming scene) by internet hate mongers like most popular gaming youtubers who are constantly putting out videos hyping up how you should video companies because they sneezed wrong, and other ridiculous nonsense. Most people legitimately want to hate things, and so will do everything in their power to justify their need to hate things. "Lore break", "retcon" and other similar buzzwords/phrases are easy methods of doing so.

    ..........

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Maybe they're secretly hoping for Jormag to avoid direct confrontation with Primordus and froze "themselves" in ice for centuries.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yea im definitely on the same side as those who were just "what the kitten" about this champion thing.

    I've talked to a few people who called the Braham Champion of Primordus thing but let it be known, my disagreements were not that I adamantly didn't think it would happen exactly but more that I really hoped it wouldn't go down that way lol.

    There are only two moments in this game's story where I have genuinely gone "oh god no.. please no.. no no Noooooooooo!!" and that's not because I was invested in what's going on it's because those particular moments in the story were just so monumentally awful that it caused me physical pain to witness them xD

    The first was Aurine confirming that she's pretty much immortal cause "Joko Magic" and yes im still annoyed by this one.
    And the second is Braham walking up to a Giant Elder Dragon that was submerged in an active Volcano btw and just making himself it's champion.. like What the absolute Kitten!!
    He did exactly what Bangar did only with magic animal ghosts and now he's basically Super Braham.

    These two moments have to be the worst writing in the whole game so far.. regardless of how built up they actually are.
    But oh well, here we are I guess and what's done is done..

    Best I can hope for now is that Taimi doesn't go and form a Cartman/Cthulhu relationship with the kitten water dragon xD

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Braham calling himself the „alpha“ in the Fireheart Rise DRM bothers me more than I‘d like to admit. „Alpha“ behaviour in wolves is only something that happens in captivity, not in the wild. From the way Braham acts, he isn‘t the captive here.

    While this is true, there is an easy explanation for that: Tyria is not the real world. While alpha behaviour is a phenomenon related to captivity for real life wolves, the same doesn't necessarily have to apply to Tyrian wolves. :)

    And in the context of the destroyers, it can make sense especially. He is dominating the destroyers with pure physical and willpower. The term alpha seems appropriate here.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2021

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Braham calling himself the „alpha“ in the Fireheart Rise DRM bothers me more than I‘d like to admit. „Alpha“ behaviour in wolves is only something that happens in captivity, not in the wild. From the way Braham acts, he isn‘t the captive here.

    While this is true, there is an easy explanation for that: Tyria is not the real world. While alpha behaviour is a phenomenon related to captivity for real life wolves, the same doesn't necessarily have to apply to Tyrian wolves. :)

    And in the context of the destroyers, it can make sense especially. He is dominating the destroyers with pure physical and willpower. The term alpha seems appropriate here.

    Yeah, the different world = different rules explanation is the one I go by, but sometimes it does bother me nonetheless, as I don't think this is done on purpose, but due to a lack of knowledge :P.

    The term does make sense here in a certain way, if we boil it down to use the human "showing dominance" meaning, but doesn't in other ways.
    Normally that behaviour is restricted to beings of the same-species. If we say that Braham fully converted into a destroyer now, that'd be fine. But that would also mean that he's actually the Beta aiding the Alpha (in this case Primordus).

    However, we also haven't really seen a hierarchy based on force-based-dominance until now in destroyers. Destroyers have always acted more like insects with different colonies / squads and "queens". (Intelligence based dominance is featured in Zhaitan-minions, and some Mordrem-Alphas, also wolves, exist.)

    I do think the writers intended this to be a clever way to make him the "Alpha Wolf" of the destroyer "pack" here (after all the buildup of him "becoming the Wolf"), but I don't think it really works here in the context of destroyers. But it is Braham who says it, so maybe he just doesn't know better.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2021

    Regardless of the slightly forced way of getting there, we now head into the finale and possibly beyond with three Dragon Champions in a three-way conflict

    • The Commander - representing the either neutral or good Aurene depending on perspective
    • Braham - representing the wild, primal and bestial nature of Primordus whose only goal seems worldwide destruction
    • Ryland - representing the nuanced, but evil and manipulative Jormag who wants to preserve the World, not caring if the cost is torturing those it believes it is saving

    Back in LS1, Scarlet was meant to be the anti-Commander. An actual Nemesis we could stand against and opposed us in strength and intelligence and an army to back it up. A great idea, not really well implemented in the end. This feels like their chance to rectify that. If the two Dragons remain standing after the end, then we have some interesting dynamics to explore and playthrough

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    If the two Dragons remain standing after the end, then we have some interesting dynamics to explore and playthrough

    I doubt both will be standing, that just doesn't make sense from a narrative perspective to have the entire saga build up to us killing at least one of them, and then not do it. Would be like if HoT ended without Mordy's death, or PoF ended without Balthazar's death, or LWS4 ended without Kralk's death.

    If ether survives I think it will be Primordus, due to how little time we got with him overall. May fly off to Cantha to fight Bubbles, to become the last of the old Elder dragons standing or something. Would explain the two dragons on the EoD logo, unless one is Aurene, and the other is Bubbles.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2021

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    If the two Dragons remain standing after the end, then we have some interesting dynamics to explore and playthrough

    I doubt both will be standing, that just doesn't make sense from a narrative perspective to have the entire saga build up to us killing at least one of them, and then not do it. Would be like if HoT ended without Mordy's death, or PoF ended without Balthazar's death, or LWS4 ended without Kralk's death.

    If ether survives I think it will be Primordus, due to how little time we got with him overall. May fly off to Cantha to fight Bubbles, to become the last of the old Elder dragons standing or something. Would explain the two dragons on the EoD logo, unless one is Aurene, and the other is Bubbles.

    True. Or, they may feel Jormag has more character and more they can play with in terms of story because of it, whereas Primordus is a lot more one dimensional,

    However, on reflection if the prophecy fortells of Jormag's fall because of Braham, then it would seem to more indicate Jormag isn't surviving past IBS

    Maybe Primordus will gain more intelligence as a result of destroying Jormag somehow

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    True. Or, they may feel Jormag has more character and more they can play with in terms of story because of it, whereas Primordus is a lot more one dimensional,

    However, on reflection if the prophecy fortells of Jormag's fall because of Braham, then it would seem to more indicate Jormag isn't surviving past IBS

    Maybe Primordus will gain more intelligence as a result of destroying Jormag somehow

    I kinda feel like the whole "Jormag has intelligence/character" bit has already been played out. We have seen it go the full spectrum of pretending to be nice, to being outright manipulate, to being desperately vicious. Also, this season is called "The Icebrood Saga", and the initial trailer showed everyone having a stare down with Jormag at the end, so i think Jormag is probably dead by the end.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Weindrasi.3805 said:
    However, just because Bangar is nuts doesn't mean that a Champion can't command a dragon. Nothing in lore makes it impossible. A Dragon makes itself vulnerable by sharing power with a Champion. While in most cases, a Champion isn't in a position to exploit that vulnerability, the vulnerability exists. Glint used the vulnerability to escape Kralk, and the Commander used it to heavily shape Aurene's development and worldview.

    That's incorrect.

    Glint escaped Kralkatorrik's control because the Forgotten used a purifying ritual on her to give her free will.

    Dragon champions, much like all dragon minions, lack free will. They can't disobey their Elder Dragon.

    The sole exception to this rule is the Commander, Caithe, Ryland, and Bangar. The former two because Aurene's a good guy and wouldn't enslave mortals. The latter because Jormag wanted to manipulate Aurene into killing Primordus for them, and bonded rather than corrupted to show they're "not evil". And even then, those four have no ability to control their Elder Dragon - the Commander cannot order Aurene around, and neither can Ryland order Jormag around. As to "heavily shape Aurene's development" - that was because Aurene was an infant, and this is even highlighted by Vlast and the Kesho exalted/Forgotten and how his lack of a champion while young resulted in a disconnection with mortals.

    Unlike Aurene and Vlast, Jormag and Primordus are not infants.

    Primordus corrupts Braham, and only the connection to the Spirits of the Wild gives him a sliver of free will and intelligence, but this itself is thrown in out of nowhere in this episode - it's a plot device created with zero proper foreshadowing, to perform an action that 9 years of the game's lore tells us is impossible unless the Elder Dragon allows it to be possible.

    @Weindrasi.3805 said:
    Also, I don't know why you are screaming 'LORE BREAK, LORE BREAK' this quickly--Arenanet has not forgotten the lore about not killing more elder dragons, and they aren't going to throw it out the window. Take a deep breath and wait for the rest of the story to play out.

    Then why hasn't a single character brought up the fact that they can't kill more Elder Dragons? Why are multiple members of Dragon's Watch actively gunning to kill an Elder Dragon?

    There is zero evidence to suggest they're keeping to that direction, and my "screaming LORE BREAK, LORE BREAK" wasn't just on that, it was on everything Braham does, which I further explained above.

    If you've been around on the lore forums long enough, you should know I don't instantly cry out about inconsistencies and prefer to wait things out. But this release does conflict. From Braham's character development to how dragon corruption has shown to work for the past 9+ years, to sudden plot devices that are borderline dues ex machinas.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    This is a problem a lot of people have, and I've seen this issue crop up in pretty much every game series I've ever played. People have a bad habit of taking everything every NPC says as some word of god, 100% literal, undeniable, truth, when no writer writes NPCs that way. Everything is written from the perspective of that character, at tat time, with the knowledge they have at that moment. Just because something comes up later to prove them wrong doesn't make it a retcon, or them forgetting their own lore, it just means that person was wrong.

    By now, you should we well aware that I am not one of those people. Given I've used the very argument of unreliable narrator against you perceiving certain NPC lines to be fully true.

    The thing is, while I only quoted one character above, it's a notion that's firmly developed since Edge of Destiny's release back in 2010 and until now is one of the few points of lore that has never changed or even be questioned in the lore.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2021

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Primordus corrupts Braham, and only the connection to the Spirits of the Wild gives him a sliver of free will and intelligence, but this itself is thrown in out of nowhere in this episode - it's a plot device created with zero proper foreshadowing, to perform an action that 9 years of the game's lore tells us is impossible unless the Elder Dragon allows it to be possible.

    Yeah man, those Corrupted Spirits of the Wild we saw back in Shadow in the Ice, which came out Jan 2020, over a year ago, lacked any sort of free will and intelligence... ohh wait, they clearly showed intelligence, and also actively helped Braham fight against Drakkar, and then did so again in Jormag Rising when they helped Braham open the gate to Jormag, and prevented the major spirits from being corrupted in the process.

    If three of the Lesser Spirits managed to retain some ability to think and act for themselves, despite being corrupted, then the greater spirits should be able to protect one guy, if only even barely, from being fully mind controlled.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2021

    Deleted post. I explained myself wrong and what I wrote didn't make sense to me let alone anyone else

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    I think he meant Primordus's intelligence/free will is now stemming from the Spirits forcing it upon it by making Braham a Dragon Champion rather than Spirits themselves lacking intelligence/free will. At least that's hwo I read the quoted sentence

    Primordus doesn't have intelligence, or free will. Its the same mindless beat it always was. Braham is just forcing himself into the role of the Dragon's champion, and using that to control the destroyers. His ability to retain his free will is due to the spirits of the wild shielding hi from full mental control, which, as I was pointing out, they have already shown the ability to do for themselves earlier in the saga.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2021

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    I think he meant Primordus's intelligence/free will is now stemming from the Spirits forcing it upon it by making Braham a Dragon Champion rather than Spirits themselves lacking intelligence/free will. At least that's hwo I read the quoted sentence

    Primordus doesn't have intelligence, or free will. Its the same mindless beat it always was. Braham is just forcing himself into the role of the Dragon's champion, and using that to control the destroyers. His ability to retain his free will is due to the spirits of the wild shielding hi from full mental control, which, as I was pointing out, they have already shown the ability to do for themselves earlier in the saga.

    See my above edit. My post was gibberish caused by not reading what I or others wrote properly

    Apologies - as you were. Think my head is pounding too much to add anything useful to the discussion

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think there is a bit of a degree to which assumptions based on other Elder Dragons might not apply to Primordus.

    We've had indications that there was something different about Primordus for a while. Primordus generally doesn't corrupt creatures, but creates their own minions. Jormag was describing Primordus as being animalistic and mindless, which has been different to the other Elder Dragons we've faced, which were intelligent even if they were uncommunicative and/or insane, and this animalistic nature has been confirmed with the recent update. Given those existing distinctions, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that Primordus' form of corrupting living beings, when they do do it, is not as sophisticated as that of other dragons.

    Another consideration is that even when the same rules apply, we've seen that minions can retain some of their priorities from before they were corrupted, as long as those priorities do not conflict with the dragon's own priorities. So if Primordus actually does want to confront Jormag, than Braham's ploy actually works - the two are in agreement over the goal, and Braham may well be able to exert some influence over how to pursue that goal (for instance: "these creatures are also fighting Jormag's creatures, maybe avoid killing them for now so they can help fight Jormag"). Thus, as long as Primordus' main priority is to kill Jormag, Braham might be able to influence Primordus's approach of how to do that.

    The problem would be that Primordus probably doesn't want to die in the process, and once Jormag is out of the picture, Primordus might revert back to "burn the world". With that said, however, we do have precedent that the lesser Spirits may, on occasion, be able to act against Jormag's interests (although we don't know how much of that Jormag might have allowed as part of a Xanatos gambit). So it's possible that the greater spirits and Braham will be able to maintain self-control even if Primordus breaks from the script.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2021

    I'm just tinfoil hatting here but here's my theory :

    Jormag has made it clear that Primordous is their twin.
    Jormag has also made it known that Primordous is animalistic.
    Braham and the Spirits have come to the conclusion that Primordous has no real mind of its own.
    Braham is able to exert limited control as Primordous' champion, but risks being consumed by the raw fury and rage of Primodous.

    This all points to one thing :
    Primordous and Jormag are not twins, they are two halves of a whole.
    Based on this theory, they do not "destroy" each other literally when they clash.
    They will "destroy" both Jormag and Primordous to become whole.

    If this is true, then I can already guess the ending of Champions :

    • Primodous and Jormag are forced to clash and merge
    • A single being is born from the merge
    • They are evil because Elder Dragon stuff anyway
    • Aurene finally has to get off her butt to confront it, as the only other Elder Dragon who can match them (god knows where Bubbles is)
    • Big fight.
    • Ryland probably dies, Braham probably dies.

    Alternatively :

    • We look for Bubbles in EoD for a three way fight.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    The problem would be that Primordus probably doesn't want to die in the process, and once Jormag is out of the picture, Primordus might revert back to "burn the world". With that said, however, we do have precedent that the lesser Spirits may, on occasion, be able to act against Jormag's interests (although we don't know how much of that Jormag might have allowed as part of a Xanatos gambit). So it's possible that the greater spirits and Braham will be able to maintain self-control even if Primordus breaks from the script.

    If there is one thing that the writers at Arenanet are no longer capable of, its creating a half, no, quarter decent Xanatos gambit. I don't think Jormag is capable of such.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2021

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    I'm just tinfoil hatting here but here's my theory :

    Jormag has made it clear that Primordous is their twin.
    Jormag has also made it known that Primordous is animalistic.
    Braham and the Spirits have come to the conclusion that Primordous has no real mind of its own.
    Braham is able to exert limited control as Primordous' champion, but risks being consumed by the raw fury and rage of Primodous.

    This all points to one thing :
    Primordous and Jormag are not twins, they are two halves of a whole.
    Based on this theory, they do not "destroy" each other literally when they clash.
    They will "destroy" both Jormag and Primordous to become whole.

    I've wildspecced something similar myself - that Jormag and Primordus might be two halves of a whole. There's always been the "fire and ice" thing, but we're also starting to see a sort of animalistic emotion versus cold (sociopathic, even) logic split. We have seen displays of emotion from Jormag, but that could be tactical display of emotion rather than actually losing control. We could be looking at a situation of having two unbalanced sides that need to merge to form a balanced whole.

    Of course, that raises the question of whether a single being can contain the magic currently split between Jormag and Primordus.

    It is, quite likely, the only practical way we're likely to resolve this without either Braham or Ryland ending up dead. (Mind you, it wouldn't be the first time we've had to kill the son of an important friendly character because they'd lost the plot.)

  • PseudoNewb.5468PseudoNewb.5468 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2021

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    I think there is a bit of a degree to which assumptions based on other Elder Dragons might not apply to Primordus.

    And one can acknowledge that an observation, even if reliable, does not make a rule. The observed "truth" is not a law that shall not be challenged. Sure, conflicting events/observations means the rules aren't so clear cut and could be complicated. And it isn't always best to make things more complicated. But to say that dragon corruption may have degrees of control and isn't infallibly absolute doesn't make things that much more complicated (In fact in the real world hypothesis, or aspersions that deal with absolutes are some of the most complicated things to prove). And to assert that such a complication to how things should work, is impermissible and creates a contradiction is just stubborn denial. If, in the real world, we stuck to the strict "lore" of Newtonian physics and dismissed radical observations as contradictions, then, well things would be quite boring. It just doesn't look good to say, one's constructed understanding and mechanical model of the world (real or phantasy) is superior and anything contradicting is either an error (in the real world) or going off the rails (in a fictional world). Softening how the connections between elder dragon and minion work simply isn't going to make the lore implode.

    Another consideration is that even when the same rules apply, we've seen that minions can retain some of their priorities from before they were corrupted, as long as those priorities do not conflict with the dragon's own priorities. So if Primordus actually does want to confront Jormag, than Braham's ploy actually works - the two are in agreement over the goal, and Braham may well be able to exert some influence over how to pursue that goal (for instance: "these creatures are also fighting Jormag's creatures, maybe avoid killing them for now so they can help fight Jormag"). Thus, as long as Primordus' main priority is to kill Jormag, Braham might be able to influence Primordus's approach of how to do that.

    And that is the thing here. Some people are saying, it turns out Braham and the Spirits are doing what Bangar originally planned, but that is a gross simplification of things. It turns out Bangar uses some of the same logic as Jormag, wanting to protect the charr and all. But it is also a fact that Bangar's idea of protecting the charr is for the charr to dominate and destroy the other races. Bangar wants to command Jormag like a piece of artillery as he previously accused the commander of doing with Aurene. Bangar acted as though he would be able control Jormag no questions asked. It simply could never be that easy.
    Braham and the Spirit's quest is very different. They want to draw Primordu's attention away from drawing power by attacking mortal settlements and direct Primordus back to it's primary instinct of fighting the ice dragon. We have evidence that, yes, Primordus does want to directly attack Jormag as hinted in Drizzlewood coast lore. Secondly Braham knows full well that he can not control Primordus, and the potential consequences of approaching Primordus. He brings the spirits to help, and has their full cooperation. Bangar brought totems of the spirits when he confronted Jormag, seeming to think he could use their power to subjugate Jormag, but as it turns out the totems ended up feeding Jormag instead, because Bangar's ability to actually control any of it was made up in Bangar's own head. Braham's computer is completely opposite of Bangar. He isn't there to control Primordus, just to try to constrain it, redirect it's attention. He does it knowing that it will likely be the last choice he will make. He knows and acts like this is his last moment of independence. Reflecting Owl's words, he states what his fate is, he is the "harness". Through him, he hopes the Spirits of the Wild can coax Primordus to focus on seeking and attacking Jormag.
    And the argument that Braham's and the Spirit's plan is ridiculous because an Elder dragon's control is absolute is a bit silly. Such a belief falls already falls apart with events before this new story instance. As said, there are plenty of examples of so called corruption being fallible. The Pale Tree helps Sylvari avoid corruption before Mordremoth wakes, and many sylvari avoid corruption even after Mordremoth awakes. Even among those who convert to mordrem, we find at least one who happens to find a place where Mordremoth's influence wanes and he is able to regain some of his original will. Also, the Spirit's of the WIld's plan doesn't require Braham to maintain full independence. He is the "harness" in the scheme, something that the allows the Spirits to pull on Primordus without directly touching it. Remember that it is the spirits that are trying ultimately the ones trying to influence Primordus, not Braham. That was their original plan, but that failed because trying to directly enter Primordus led to Pirmordus sensing them and trying to consume them. What we see, now, is Braham acting as a bridge between the Spirits and Primordus, disguising the fact that the Spirits and the magic they feed are trying to change Primordu's focus, and acting as a buffer to prevent Primordu's will from overcoming the Spirits. Weather or not Braham has any control over his actions is beside the point of the plan. He is focused is on regulating the connection between the Spirits and Primordus. What his physicals manifestation does as a dragon champion is not the highest concern.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 14, 2021

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Primordus corrupts Braham, and only the connection to the Spirits of the Wild gives him a sliver of free will and intelligence, but this itself is thrown in out of nowhere in this episode - it's a plot device created with zero proper foreshadowing, to perform an action that 9 years of the game's lore tells us is impossible unless the Elder Dragon allows it to be possible.

    Yeah man, those Corrupted Spirits of the Wild we saw back in Shadow in the Ice, which came out Jan 2020, over a year ago, lacked any sort of free will and intelligence... ohh wait, they clearly showed intelligence, and also actively helped Braham fight against Drakkar, and then did so again in Jormag Rising when they helped Braham open the gate to Jormag, and prevented the major spirits from being corrupted in the process.

    If three of the Lesser Spirits managed to retain some ability to think and act for themselves, despite being corrupted, then the greater spirits should be able to protect one guy, if only even barely, from being fully mind controlled.

    Episodes 2 and 4 also show that the Lost Spirits are incapable of resisting Jormag for long, and that no matter how much they resist, they will fall in line to Jormag and against their own morals. Any resistance they offer - like helping open a door or killing Drakkar - is temporary. If we apply this same rule to the Great Spirits, who are only called such because they're the primarily revered spirits and unless their strength comes from worship has no bearing on their strength compared to other Spirits of the Wild, then Primordus should corrupt them and result in them being unable to resist Primordus for more than short bursts. Which seems a really bad ploy if their the only thing keeping Braham resisting except for short bursts.

    One could theorycraft and speculate that the reason why Braham succumbed to Primordus' behavior in the DRM is because the Great Spirits themselves succumbed for a bit, but the five were all talking about how they'd "get in and get out" (more or less) before Primordus could influence the Great Spirits.

    Either way, we're stuck going "okay, so why can they do it, when the others couldn't" with only baseless speculation to answer us. Some theorycrafting to explain questions is good and all, but when you have a foundation of nothing to explain critical questions, that's just proof of bad writing.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Primordus doesn't have intelligence, or free will. Its the same mindless beat it always was. Braham is just forcing himself into the role of the Dragon's champion, and using that to control the destroyers. His ability to retain his free will is due to the spirits of the wild shielding hi from full mental control, which, as I was pointing out, they have already shown the ability to do for themselves earlier in the saga.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Jormag was describing Primordus as being animalistic and mindless, which has been different to the other Elder Dragons we've faced, which were intelligent even if they were uncommunicative and/or insane, and this animalistic nature has been confirmed with the recent update.

    A claim that was created this release, and doesn't make sense. Ever since Eye of the North, the destroyers are shown to be intelligent and seek out specific targets. Even in the Gendarran DRM, it's brought up how the destroyers launched a feint attack on LA to divert forces away from Ascalon Settlement.

    Destroyers are merely corrupted rock, so where did this intelligence come from?

    It just seems self-conflicting statements in the story.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Given those existing distinctions, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that Primordus' form of corrupting living beings, when they do do it, is not as sophisticated as that of other dragons.

    Then shouldn't the Stone Summit have been capable of influencing Primordus? Or the test subjects at Crucible of Eternity, like Subject Alpha?

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 14, 2021

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    A claim that was created this release, and doesn't make sense. Ever since Eye of the North, the destroyers are shown to be intelligent and seek out specific targets. Even in the Gendarran DRM, it's brought up how the destroyers launched a feint attack on LA to divert forces away from Ascalon Settlement.

    Destroyers are merely corrupted rock, so where did this intelligence come from?

    It just seems self-conflicting statements in the story.

    Again, even wild animals(like wolves) have the ability to recognize specific targets, and use tactics to take down said targets. That doesn't mean they are truly intelligent. Primordus's destroyers have only ever shown this kind of animalistic mentality, and not that of intelligent species.

    Even in the Gendarran DRM, both Jhavi and Marjory mention how Primordus only seeks to cause destruction. Its attack on the Ascalon settlement really makes no tactical sense when he could have gone after Lion's Arch instead, using a feint attack on the Ascalon Settlement to lure forces away from LA. Instead it does the opposite, and trys to destroy a relatively small settlement, with little overall tactical value.

    This lack of intelligence by Primordus's minions was also mentioned by Taimi in the Metrica Province DRM. When Braham mentions the champion has gone to the area, Taimi quips that its actions make no sense, because the Asura gate into Rata Sum is in the exact opposite direction. She even specifically states "destroyers don't have reason"

    So not only was the claim not made this release, the destroyer's actions don't show anything other then primitive, animalistic, intelligence, and tactics use.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Episodes 2 and 4 also show that the Lost Spirits are incapable of resisting Jormag for long, and that no matter how much they resist, they will fall in line to Jormag and against their own morals. Any resistance they offer - like helping open a door or killing Drakkar - is temporary. If we apply this same rule to the Great Spirits, who are only called such because they're the primarily revered spirits and unless their strength comes from worship has no bearing on their strength compared to other Spirits of the Wild, then Primordus should corrupt them and result in them being unable to resist Primordus for more than short bursts. Which seems a really bad ploy if their the only thing keeping Braham resisting except for short bursts.

    One could theorycraft and speculate that the reason why Braham succumbed to Primordus' behavior in the DRM is because the Great Spirits themselves succumbed for a bit, but the five were all talking about how they'd "get in and get out" (more or less) before Primordus could influence the Great Spirits.

    Either way, we're stuck going "okay, so why can they do it, when the others couldn't" with only baseless speculation to answer us. Some theorycrafting to explain questions is good and all, but when you have a foundation of nothing to explain critical questions, that's just proof of bad writing.

    Difference being is that the Lost Spirits of the Wild were corrupted, while the greater spirits were not. If a corrupted spirit could regain its freedom, even temporarily, then it makes sense the greater ones could work freely when not actually corrupted.

    Also, baseless speculation, by its very name, requires speculation with nothing to base it on, we do have something to base it on, so, by definition, it cannot be baseless. Using buzzwords does not help your arguments. Especially when used wrong.

  • Pax.3548Pax.3548 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 14, 2021

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    A claim that was created this release, and doesn't make sense. Ever since Eye of the North, the destroyers are shown to be intelligent and seek out specific targets. Even in the Gendarran DRM, it's brought up how the destroyers launched a feint attack on LA to divert forces away from Ascalon Settlement.

    Except it wasn't Primordious who was controlling the destroyers back then, but the great destroyer, besides you can't compare Primordious's condition from back there to the one here, the great amount of magic released and consumed in this cycle has changed many things, probably making all knowledge we had beforehand obsolete.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Where did the Great Destroyer get it intelligence from?

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Jokubas.4265Jokubas.4265 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 14, 2021

    I've been joking about the sudden lack of concern for killing the Elder Dragons, but so far I'm convinced that it's another example of the story being written backwards (though I will lament with the rest if I turn out wrong).

    My guess is that there will be a solution by the end of this (whether that be Jormag and Primordus fusing into one dragon, or something else that serves as a lead-in to the expansion), and in hindsight it will make sense (but still not explain why the characters didn't think to question this situation until the reveal comes). I don't have proof that's what happened before, but it would explain a lot if the ending is designed first, and as a result knowledge about the conclusion is taken for granted, so characters aren't given the reaction they should be having without that information.

    In other words, the storytelling might be rough, but the rules would still ultimately be intact.