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Champions Chapter 3 [spoiler discussion]

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  • Pax.3548Pax.3548 Member ✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Where did the Great Destroyer get it intelligence from?

    We don't know, and speculating or assumming facts out of it its plain naive, we just don't know how the mind of these dragon champions works, just because its show signs of intelligence doesn't mean they are above simple beasts, just as wolves or killer whales can be incredibly intelligent and cunning, but they're still wild animals

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Pax.3548 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Where did the Great Destroyer get it intelligence from?

    We don't know, and speculating or assumming facts out of it its plain naive, we just don't know how the mind of these dragon champions works, just because its show signs of intelligence doesn't mean they are above simple beasts, just as wolves or killer whales can be incredibly intelligent and cunning, but they're still wild animals

    Then I guess there's no point to posting on a Lore Sub-Forum, if we follow your assertion to its logical conclusion.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 14, 2021

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Episodes 2 and 4 also show that the Lost Spirits are incapable of resisting Jormag for long, and that no matter how much they resist, they will fall in line to Jormag and against their own morals. Any resistance they offer - like helping open a door or killing Drakkar - is temporary. If we apply this same rule to the Great Spirits, who are only called such because they're the primarily revered spirits and unless their strength comes from worship has no bearing on their strength compared to other Spirits of the Wild, then Primordus should corrupt them and result in them being unable to resist Primordus for more than short bursts. Which seems a really bad ploy if their the only thing keeping Braham resisting except for short bursts.

    One could theorycraft and speculate that the reason why Braham succumbed to Primordus' behavior in the DRM is because the Great Spirits themselves succumbed for a bit, but the five were all talking about how they'd "get in and get out" (more or less) before Primordus could influence the Great Spirits.

    Either way, we're stuck going "okay, so why can they do it, when the others couldn't" with only baseless speculation to answer us. Some theorycrafting to explain questions is good and all, but when you have a foundation of nothing to explain critical questions, that's just proof of bad writing.

    Difference being is that the Lost Spirits of the Wild were corrupted, while the greater spirits were not. If a corrupted spirit could regain its freedom, even temporarily, then it makes sense the greater ones could work freely when not actually corrupted.

    Also, baseless speculation, by its very name, requires speculation with nothing to base it on, we do have something to base it on, so, by definition, it cannot be baseless. Using buzzwords does not help your arguments. Especially when used wrong.

    They are also two different dragons with different methods and corruption.

    From what we've seen of Jormag free will to some extent has always been part of it's corruption, Jormag manipulates people onto it's side rather than forcefully corrupts them like Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan did.
    I don't recall any time where Jormag has forcefully corrupted something against it's will like Kralkatorrik would brand something.. unless you count all the people it has frozen in DRM's.. although are those people corrupted?.. Jormag itself claims they are not and will awaken as they were eventually, but can we even trust it's words there?
    There's also Bangar too who Jormag cheated and enslaved but he's not a good example of forced corruption since he was willing to be corrupted and he wanted to be the Champion, Jormag just screwed him over.. which was pretty funny tbh.

    It all makes me wonder whether forceful corruption is even possible for Jormag to do.. or at least if it's possible for Jormag to do and retain absolute control over the corrupted being like other Dragons have been able to do.

    Jormag is an Elder Dragon so you would naturally assume it's absolutely possible for Jormag to corrupt anything it pleases if it really wanted to.
    But what if the strength of Jormag's corruption is based on the devotion of the being that is being corrupted.. Ryland for example became significantly more powerful after corruption arguably far more than your typical Icebrood or Frost Legion soldier.
    And what does the status of Champion mean to Jormag.. does that mean Jormag will imbue it's Champion with more magic or power than the average follower or does the willingness of the Champion dictate how powerful they become after corruption?..
    Did Ryland become so powerful because Jormag intentionally imbued him with so much power or did he become so powerful because he was so devoted to being Jormag's Champion?

    If the power is based on the willingness to be corrupted then that could explain why the lesser spirits despite being corrupted still retain their ability to resist Jormag for a while.. even Owl who was also a Lesser Spirit.
    Perhaps these spirits were among the few that were corrupted forcefully and that's why they can resist Jormag.. or it could just be that they are powerful entities themselves.
    I guess until we can get confirmation in game we just won't know.

    But I'd like it to be more than just "The Spirits are powerful, that's how they resist" it would make things more interesting at least.
    It still changes nothing about Braham's situation though which is just.. bad lol
    Primordus doesn't corrupt living things.. even the Stone Summit corrupted themselves and they are.. were, the only example of living beings corrupted by the fire dragon.. oh and they were also made of stone too so that's a factor as well.

    Braham, a living flesh and blood mortal being corrupted and made Primordus Champion just doesn't make any sense.
    Unless you want to say it was the spirits who made him the Champion by giving Primordus the brainpower to corrupt a mortal but then you're also claiming that 4 spirits of the wild have the power to control an Elder Dragon to that extent.
    But that doesn't change the order of events either.. they tried to "possess" Primordus if that word is applicable here and they failed noting they were almost consumed while trying and they needed Braham to be the "harness" so that they could manipulate or "possess" the Dragon which would mean Braham would have had to be have been absorbed or corrupted first to give the Spirits a way in.. and as said, Primordus doesn't corrupt mortals.
    If they woke him up first.. based on all of Primordus past behaviour, he would have killed Braham, not absorbed him.

  • Pax.3548Pax.3548 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 14, 2021

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Then I guess there's no point to posting on a Lore Sub-Forum, if we follow your assertion to its logical conclusion.

    I guess it would be better than simply assuming facts and being angry at anet for not following our assumptions, like some folk I've seen around here

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 14, 2021

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    A claim that was created this release, and doesn't make sense. Ever since Eye of the North, the destroyers are shown to be intelligent and seek out specific targets. Even in the Gendarran DRM, it's brought up how the destroyers launched a feint attack on LA to divert forces away from Ascalon Settlement.

    Destroyers are merely corrupted rock, so where did this intelligence come from?

    It just seems self-conflicting statements in the story.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Given those existing distinctions, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that Primordus' form of corrupting living beings, when they do do it, is not as sophisticated as that of other dragons.

    Then shouldn't the Stone Summit have been capable of influencing Primordus? Or the test subjects at Crucible of Eternity, like Subject Alpha?

    The claim wasn't explicitly made until this release, but the descriptions of Primordus by Jormag were pointing in that general direction. "Incapable of subtlety." "Beast". Jormag may not have laid it out until now, but in hindsight, Jormag's choice of language fits the revelation of Primordus' nature.

    In the case of the distinction between Braham and the Spirits and, say, the Stone Summit - well, there's a degree of "how do we know that they DON'T", but the more significant distinction is that the spirits themselves are accounting for the difficulty. Bear's entire purpose in the endeavour is to make sure that the Spirits manage to keep on task, and possibly Wolf as well. While Raven and Snow Leopard's aims sound less like they're trying to force Primordus to do anything, but to guide. Primordus already wants to fight Jormag. They're basically acting as enablers for Primordus to do something that Primordus already wants to do. Which is, in a way, a form of influence, since part of the goal is to make Primordus want to go for Jormag now rather than building up power at the expense of Tyria's mortal population.

    EDIT: Another thing worth considering, which could relate to the corrupted Spirits being able to demonstrate some level of resistance, is that we've seen divine energy being effective at repelling dragon minions before. If there is some similarity between the Spirits of the Wild and the human gods (not saying that they're the same, that's been well and truly debunked, but they might be composed of a similar form of energy), that might be where they get their resistance from. Unfortunately, of course, it's definitely resistance rather than immunity.

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Where did the Great Destroyer get it intelligence from?

    Was the Great Destroyer actually intelligent?

    A lot of Destroyer behaviour could probably actually be modelled on the behaviour of an ant colony. They just seem to generally push outwards. The presence of underground routes (and asura gates in GW1) hides this general "push outwards" nature because it ends up being channeled through passages rather than just spreading outwards in a ring, but when the Destroyers encounter opposition, either more Destroyers get allocated to the location, or if the threat poses too great and it isn't too close to the hive, the Destroyers will eventually push in another direction instead.

    And Destroyers can still be more intelligent than individual ants without having true sapience.

    We've had quite a few indications that the Destroyers really do not have a tactical mindset as we think of it. Most of their behaviour, including the attacks on Glint's scions, could simply be interpreted as seeking food (magic) or attacking threats (if Primordus views Jormag as an enemy, it's not impossible that Primordus also views other Elder Dragons as potential threats). Gendarran Fields is being cited as "tactics", but there's nothing necessarily there beyond the tactics of a eusocial hunting pack attacking two targets, recognising that one is weaker than the other, and focusing on the weak one.

  • Tanith.5264Tanith.5264 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:
    And then Braham just shows up in a DRM and superman jumps away at the end with no dialogue? lmao.

    That struck me as very odd as well. Given how excruciatingly long-winded the NPC's have been during these DRM's, it was really weird to have nothing at the end other than everyone shouting "BRAHAM!"

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2021

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Again, even wild animals(like wolves) have the ability to recognize specific targets, and use tactics to take down said targets. That doesn't mean they are truly intelligent. Primordus's destroyers have only ever shown this kind of animalistic mentality, and not that of intelligent species.

    Animals aren't mindless.

    This lack of intelligence by Primordus's minions was also mentioned by Taimi in the Metrica Province DRM. When Braham mentions the champion has gone to the area, Taimi quips that its actions make no sense, because the Asura gate into Rata Sum is in the exact opposite direction. She even specifically states "destroyers don't have reason"

    A statement that is directly contradicted by its scenario, which is why Taimi is confused. Ironic that you're taking Taimi's statement as factual proof despite contrary evidence (that the statement is even highlighting) when you claimed I did the same in this very thread.

    Difference being is that the Lost Spirits of the Wild were corrupted, while the greater spirits were not. If a corrupted spirit could regain its freedom, even temporarily, then it makes sense the greater ones could work freely when not actually corrupted.

    The Lost Spirits are corrupted by the very act the Great Spirits are doing.

    And despite their names, the Great Spirits aren't greater, as I said. They're called Great Spirits because they're the focus of norn belief. In GW1, Bear was the only Great Spirit - Wolf, Raven, and Snow Leopard joined in the title because of their deed in guiding the norn south from Jormag.

    "Great" is just a reference to popularity, not strength. Unless we find something to imply otherwise.

    Also, baseless speculation, by its very name, requires speculation with nothing to base it on, we do have something to base it on, so, by definition, it cannot be baseless. Using buzzwords does not help your arguments. Especially when used wrong.

    It's being baseless speculation because your "base" isn't actual facts. You're doing the equivalent of not using any primary sources in your research, but instead just using secondary sources that use secondary sources.

    @Pax.3548 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    A claim that was created this release, and doesn't make sense. Ever since Eye of the North, the destroyers are shown to be intelligent and seek out specific targets. Even in the Gendarran DRM, it's brought up how the destroyers launched a feint attack on LA to divert forces away from Ascalon Settlement.

    Except it wasn't Primordious who was controlling the destroyers back then, but the great destroyer, besides you can't compare Primordious's condition from back there to the one here, the great amount of magic released and consumed in this cycle has changed many things, probably making all knowledge we had beforehand obsolete.

    Every dragon minion is immediately commanded by a champion. My statement still stands, because even the Great Destroyer was made from rock and lava. So that intelligence had to some from somewhere.

    And there's no statement or implication that Primordus had gotten dumber from more magic, even Kralkatorrik had intelligence and personality despite being driven to animalistic tendencies due to Torment.

    @Pax.3548 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Where did the Great Destroyer get it intelligence from?

    We don't know, and speculating or assumming facts out of it its plain naive, we just don't know how the mind of these dragon champions works, just because its show signs of intelligence doesn't mean they are above simple beasts, just as wolves or killer whales can be incredibly intelligent and cunning, but they're still wild animals

    And your statement here only furthers my own, because animals are not mindless. You're equating Primordus and the destroyers to animals, which are not mindless, but suddenly Primordus is said to be mindless and that's what the Great Spirits are manipulating - the explicit lack of intelligence or mind. Even Kralkatorrik had a mind, and Primordus is being painted as more mindless and destructive than Kralk.

    So either ANet did poor wording, or we got a sudden change in lore to make the plot direction "work".

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Where did the Great Destroyer get it intelligence from?

    Was the Great Destroyer actually intelligent?

    A lot of Destroyer behaviour could probably actually be modelled on the behaviour of an ant colony. They just seem to generally push outwards. The presence of underground routes (and asura gates in GW1) hides this general "push outwards" nature because it ends up being channeled through passages rather than just spreading outwards in a ring, but when the Destroyers encounter opposition, either more Destroyers get allocated to the location, or if the threat poses too great and it isn't too close to the hive, the Destroyers will eventually push in another direction instead.

    And Destroyers can still be more intelligent than individual ants without having true sapience.

    We've had quite a few indications that the Destroyers really do not have a tactical mindset as we think of it. Most of their behaviour, including the attacks on Glint's scions, could simply be interpreted as seeking food (magic) or attacking threats (if Primordus views Jormag as an enemy, it's not impossible that Primordus also views other Elder Dragons as potential threats). Gendarran Fields is being cited as "tactics", but there's nothing necessarily there beyond the tactics of a eusocial hunting pack attacking two targets, recognising that one is weaker than the other, and focusing on the weak one.

    Strictly speaking, I wasn't claiming that the Great Destroyer was or was not intelligent or sapient, but responding to someone that made the claim that the GD was by asking how that is possible if Primordus itself is mindless.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2021

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Animals aren't mindless.

    They are in the way most people use the term mindless, as in, lacking higher intelligence. Please don't tell me you are intentionally taking this is an unrealistic literal sense just to perpetuate an argument.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    And your statement here only furthers my own, because animals are not mindless. You're equating Primordus and the destroyers to animals, which are not mindless, but suddenly Primordus is said to be mindless and that's what the Great Spirits are manipulating - the explicit lack of intelligence or mind. Even Kralkatorrik had a mind, and Primordus is being painted as more mindless and destructive than Kralk.

    So either ANet did poor wording, or we got a sudden change in lore to make the plot direction "work".

    facepalms
    Yep, seems like you are. That, or you don't know the difference between mindlessness and brain death.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    A statement that is directly contradicted by its scenario, which is why Taimi is confused. Ironic that you're taking Taimi's statement as factual proof despite contrary evidence (that the statement is even highlighting) when you claimed I did the same in this very thread.

    Except nothing about the scenario contradicts Taimi's comment. The destroyer going out to the area doesn't make sense when it could otherwise try to push an attack into Rata Sum. Just like prioritizing the Ascalon Settlement over Lion's Arch doesn't make sense either.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    It's being baseless speculation because your "base" isn't actual facts. You're doing the equivalent of not using any primary sources in your research, but instead just using secondary sources that use secondary sources.

    So the game isn't a primary source now? Ok.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2021

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Animals aren't mindless.

    They are in the way most people use the term mindless, as in, lacking higher intelligence. Please don't tell me you are intentionally taking this is an unrealistic literal sense just to perpetuate an argument.

    There is a distinct difference between "lacking higher intelligence" and "lacking any intelligence", which:

    Raven: All this fire and not a spark in the dragon's head.

    That points to the latter, not the former.

    I'm not doing anything "just to perpetuate an argument". I'm taking the writing by ArenaNet at face value, because that's all we can do. Any interpretation is subject to selective bias, which you yourself have pointed out several times in the past. And hell, you even blamed me for it and while arguing words at face value. Care to make up your mind or are you just wanting to perpetuate arguments and swapping your defense just to proclaim "I'm right, you're wrong, I'm not listening"?

    Except nothing about the scenario contradicts Taimi's comment. The destroyer going out to the area doesn't make sense when it could otherwise try to push an attack into Rata Sum. Just like prioritizing the Ascalon Settlement over Lion's Arch doesn't make sense either.

    Why would something that is outnumbered and outmatched go for further attack? It instead went to the arena where countless magical artifacts are used on a regular basis, and what heals and empowers dragon minions? Magic.

    If Taimi's comment wasn't contradicted, then the destroyer would instead go to where it can cause the most destruction, since Taimi's entire claim has been that the destroyers seek out greater destruction.

    And the same goes for attacking Ascalon Settlement instead of Lion's Arch - it caused a feign attack on Lion's Arch, which is heavily fortified already (or did you forget that LA is lined with cannons on all sides after being rebuilt), to draw forces away from another target which became extremely vulnerable.

    That isn't lacking reason or not making sense, that's called tactics. One destroyer retreated instead of mindlessly pressing the attack, the other drew forces away from its target by pretending to attack a place that is heavily fortified.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    It's being baseless speculation because your "base" isn't actual facts. You're doing the equivalent of not using any primary sources in your research, but instead just using secondary sources that use secondary sources.

    So the game isn't a primary source now? Ok.

    That's not what I said and you kitten well know it.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think a bit of the disagreement here is starting to come from the distinction between animalistic and sapient. Is Primordus literally mindless? No. Jormag might have used the epithet, but it's the derogatory term of a sapient being towards one that isn't sapient.

    Primordus, however, does seem to genuinely be of animal-level intelligence rather than sapient, as all the other Elder Dragons have been (Kralkatorrik had two personalities at war with each other, but both were sapient). And I think that can be the "something different" about Primordus that explains a lot of the rest. He can be manipulated in the manner that an animal can (albeit an animal that has a really stubborn will and cannot truly be harnessed, only... redirected) where the other Elder Dragons have complex plans of their own and are far more likely to recognise the attempt. Being of animal intellect, his use of magic may be cruder than the others, and he may not be able to pull off the "all of your past loyalties are now subordinate to your loyalty to ME" twist to corruption that other Elder Dragons can. Instead of Braham being controlled by Primordus, he instead seems to be feeling what Jormag is probably feeling - promordial, animalistic aggression and fury that threatens to override his capacity for higher thought. Which is threatening enough to his mind and sanity but not, perhaps, the fundamental rewiring that happens to the Branded. And if Primordus has less control over converted minions, and more capability to create minions directly (or have his champions create new minions directly), this would explain why he doesn't rely on converted minions.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    From what we've seen of Jormag free will to some extent has always been part of it's corruption, Jormag manipulates people onto it's side rather than forcefully corrupts them like Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan did.

    In personal story if you join the priory, your first endeavour will be about the sword made of jormags blood, that was said to be crafted by stone summit dwarves, that upon wounding of someone turns that someone into icebrood - regardless of wether the victim is willing or not. In same storyline a bunch of sons of svanir get's turned into icebrood this way, while actively trying to avoid that fate, and calling their leader - mad.

    On a side note, creation of frost legion also involved usage of jormag's blood but I suppose most of those were somewhat willing.

    As for example of draconic corruption victims mantaining their personality - in personal story again, humans this time, we encounter ex-seraph that got corrupted by zhaitan by the proxy of orrian artifact. Said ex-seraph since corruption has shown up acts on it's own agency by trying to find the way to reverse the effect, and zhaitans undead follow him. And on a side note he also while pursuing the goal of getting himself cleansed of corruption got misled by third party to the deal. So we have precedence for let's say "partial" corruption, dating all the way back to the beggining chapters of original personal story.

    just a couple of notes to fuel the discussion :P

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    From what we've seen of Jormag free will to some extent has always been part of it's corruption, Jormag manipulates people onto it's side rather than forcefully corrupts them like Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan did.

    In personal story if you join the priory, your first endeavour will be about the sword made of jormags blood, that was said to be crafted by stone summit dwarves, that upon wounding of someone turns that someone into icebrood - regardless of wether the victim is willing or not. In same storyline a bunch of sons of svanir get's turned into icebrood this way, while actively trying to avoid that fate, and calling their leader - mad.

    True, although Jormag itself doesn't appear to be directly involved in those events.
    Svanir do retain their free will despite loyalty to Jormag so it's very likely that that storyline was based around a rogue Svanir rather than something Jormag actively decreed.

    If the stone summit made the sword then Jormag has little to do with it outside of it being made from it's own blood, Jormag may not even know of it's existence although I doubt that it could not know of something like this.. if anything Jormag did know and just allowed it to be used by whomever got their hands on it.
    I'd actually be curious to hear what Jormag has to say about that sword, but I doubt we'll ever get to have that conversation.

    As for example of draconic corruption victims mantaining their personality - in personal story again, humans this time, we encounter ex-seraph that got corrupted by zhaitan by the proxy of orrian artifact. Said ex-seraph since corruption has shown up acts on it's own agency by trying to find the way to reverse the effect, and zhaitans undead follow him. And on a side note he also while pursuing the goal of getting himself cleansed of corruption got misled by third party to the deal. So we have precedence for let's say "partial" corruption, dating all the way back to the beggining chapters of original personal story.

    Partial corruption or maybe more accurately to say a stain of corruption which lead to insanity and eventually full corruption.
    I don't think Zhaitan had any control over Kellach during the process where he was going insane and the corruption was taking hold, his actions appear to be entirely his own until he finally snapped upon the realization he was doomed and the corruption fully consumed him.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    From what we've seen of Jormag free will to some extent has always been part of it's corruption, Jormag manipulates people onto it's side rather than forcefully corrupts them like Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan did.

    In personal story if you join the priory, your first endeavour will be about the sword made of jormags blood, that was said to be crafted by stone summit dwarves, that upon wounding of someone turns that someone into icebrood - regardless of wether the victim is willing or not. In same storyline a bunch of sons of svanir get's turned into icebrood this way, while actively trying to avoid that fate, and calling their leader - mad.

    True, although Jormag itself doesn't appear to be directly involved in those events.
    Svanir do retain their free will despite loyalty to Jormag so it's very likely that that storyline was based around a rogue Svanir rather than something Jormag actively decreed.

    If the stone summit made the sword then Jormag has little to do with it outside of it being made from it's own blood, Jormag may not even know of it's existence although I doubt that it could not know of something like this.. if anything Jormag did know and just allowed it to be used by whomever got their hands on it.
    I'd actually be curious to hear what Jormag has to say about that sword, but I doubt we'll ever get to have that conversation.

    Well the point was that this event reinforces the idea that forcefull corruption is in ED's blood (pun partially intended), as in Jormag is fully capable to force corrupt living being had they wanted.

    As for example of draconic corruption victims mantaining their personality - in personal story again, humans this time, we encounter ex-seraph that got corrupted by zhaitan by the proxy of orrian artifact. Said ex-seraph since corruption has shown up acts on it's own agency by trying to find the way to reverse the effect, and zhaitans undead follow him. And on a side note he also while pursuing the goal of getting himself cleansed of corruption got misled by third party to the deal. So we have precedence for let's say "partial" corruption, dating all the way back to the beggining chapters of original personal story.

    Partial corruption or maybe more accurately to say a stain of corruption which lead to insanity and eventually full corruption.
    I don't think Zhaitan had any control over Kellach during the process where he was going insane and the corruption was taking hold, his actions appear to be entirely his own until he finally snapped upon the realization he was doomed and the corruption fully consumed him.

    Well the only thing "insane" there was in Kellah action tho was that he actually believed that Queens blood had potency to cure draconic corruption, imo. Outside of that all what Kellah said and done seemed quite logical. And yes it didn;t seem like Zhaitan has any hold over him during that period of time. While dialogue hints that in due time he would fall under dragons control, there was a period of time, when Kellah was fully himself - and yet somewhat corrupted beyond redemption.

  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2021

    Primordius launched assaults on rata sum, gandarran fields, metrica province, field of ruins, thunderhead peaks and brisban wildlands. (don't count fireheart rise, you have braham).
    I am sorry, but he is a strategist. Like Zhaithan did on claw island and LA, he is testing the defenses. Take tyria map. If you completely destroy Metrica + Brisban and assault the asura gates of rata sum you are isolating asura, it is a priority ro cut the asuran gate network. If you turns into ruins gandarran and ebonhawke you cut most of the human reinforcements line, the ones that come by foot that are assigned to queensdale or harathi and the supplies/helps from ebonhawke by cutting another gate network. Why thunderhead peak? It is the new Anti-dragon HQ with eye of the north; but it is easier to attack because far from jormag territory. Primordius was surely aware of the forge and dragonblood weapons, and wanted to get rid of them in case of.

    Not seeing the dragon clearly speaking doesn't mean it simply work on instinct or blindly, creating fissures around and don't care of them anymore after.
    Primordius far from dumb, and like jormag, he thought "yeah those sci fi rats surely gathered knowledges and brought them to their very visible giant cube". Kinda big that primordius would have chased everyone from underground without putting a tracker behind them. Maybe saying they are twins and kind of opposite, just stand for fire is contrary of ice, and that instead of trying to corrupt you by influencing you; it corrupts you if you are going to him and asking to be corrupted. This is the opposite. There is nothing with he will have the opposite of intelligence of jormag. Jormag like to planify, maybe primordius is more about rushing, if it doesn't work, it try another thing, it is another strategy, but that can work too. Really, let's put a thing on the table, how do you expect insectoids made of rocks and lava to speak? They just make sounds through their organs and it's logical. But if you have a translator, you understand.

    Destroyers work with the help of a kind of chemotactism to me, they feel a surge of magic or a concentration of living beings and they move toward them. But they do have a hive mind and if a group spot something interesting it ask for help, it reminds ant but there is a feel of how dolphin and bats works to localize to me. The main advantage of destroyers is the fast production, earth and lava is everywhere under the continental crust, that's infinite raw supply, and easy to build troops like legos. Really, I think, that like chak, they are highly sensitive to magic and are attracted like mott with a light. This is to be confirmed, but to me they like asura technologies and the magic they emit, skrittbourgh has stolen asuran tech, metrica, you have them everywhere, for rata sum it is the same. But why ebonhawke and gandarran? Well, you have an asura gate and some kralkatorrik magic at the north of ebonhawke, and hidden arcane eye lab and aetherblade hideout in gandarran. But really here just speculation. If not tied to magic concentration, then it return to being strategic and knowing how tyria work: Does primordius see through its eyes the asuran gate networks and how are linked waypoints together? I would say yes, because mordremoth successfully tracked back many waypoints and destroyed them. Plus using the asuran gates as an invasion mean in gw 1 is a kind of thinking to me, you don't go into a thing without knowing what is does. Like zhaithan through its minions, primordius see though its minions, maybe he spotted that peoples were going and out gates and so he concluded okay i'm in. Most of them have fiery eyes, but they are not always at the head and sometimes they are lines, takes a destroyer soldier, to me, it see through those two diamond shaped orange lines on its skull, whears for an harpy, is more those dots on the shoulders.

    Maybe braham not took over primordius, but linked itself to the hive mind. And again, if I take what I said before, maybe destroyers listen only to the individual with the most magic in it around, elite lieutenants are obviously stronger than hatchings or soldiers: I don't know if it is made on purpose, but see the incursions of destroyers: You always have a higher ranked and powerful destroyer with them, giving orders. To us, we hear nothing and don't know if they speak, but what if they are speaking through echo location, hitting their cheliceras between them, making rumbling noises.... we only hear "grahaaaaaa" when we kill them, but what if they are constantly saying simple sentences and orders like "Need help" "Assault here" "Defense" "Protect" "Listen" "Analysis" "Capture" "Sentry" "Retreat" "Report".
    The numbers of destroyers/troops assigned to each lieutenant can depend on how powerful is the group leader. But, by following this logic, braham in the fireheart DRM, would be considered as a lieutenants, because it has vetterans unders its orders leading subgroups of no rank destroyers.

    I really think that Primordius is just testing. The strength improved along the chapters, simple destroyers then an emberknight and named lieutenants at the end of chapter 1, a destroyer wyvern in chapter 2, more waves and veterrans in chapter 3. But I totally agree it isn't as obvious as with jormag that started with elementals and svanirs and ended with frost legion, ice giant, boneskinners and ton of stuff. But this is the second thing that is hard to confirm because, either there is no time to create new destroyers models because of rushing into eod and everything and ressources are directed here; or he retains its punch and don't show all its power.
    I'm more for the first hypothesis. I'm willing to the the obsidian destroyers brought back and further development. More models, anything.

    I will end with the corruption, there is the corrupted destroyer queen in peronnal story that lay eggs, just like the destroyer wyvern in thunderhead peak drm. Also an imbued grawl shaman in fractal, and stone summits dwarves. To me it just work like i said at the starts, primordius don't want or try to corrupt you, but if you use primordius magic spells, artifact or asking yourself to be corrupted, you are corrupted. But if it las eggs, it reproduces and so it is biological. Sure I can see it, you create a destroyed inside a destroyer but why doing so? Like jormah blood, my hypothesis is, if you stay to close to lava/rocks imbued with primordius magic it can slowly corrupt you. It isn't intentionnal, was here, you touched it... Whereas jormag spray on purpose, ice on you to corrupt you, or ask you to freeze to death.

    Those are just my two cents, but Primordio-Braham looking dumb in fireheart rise is because it has to speak in insect language in same time/struggling with using the hive mind. Imagine that at this moment, braham was sending order to destroyers in a certain radius around it, he can't do that and in same time talk with us. Why he doesn't stayed longer? Because he wants to prevent jormag to make more victims to me. At this point, he can send a destroyer meet us in eye of the north with a message he gonna carve somewhere of by typing on something like a pad.

    Gonna just end with my two cents about dragon corruption. If a subject has every dragon essence, it can control any dragon minions. This is a system of signature/footprints. However, the control also work by considering how magic you are. The spirits of the wild, or god are sources of magics, a normal minion, has only the corresponding dragon magic, well, or mixed ones due to the death of half of the dragons... however, a minion, with spirits in it, has more magic. I don't say that Spirits of the wild + primordius magic > primordius.. no no no. But to me the more magic you have, the more sentien you are. Remember mouth of zhaithan or eye of zhaithan looking for magic artifact, some feed the dragon, but I think some keep those lieutenants sentient and more intelligent than others. So, Primordius is the more sentient, but because, they don't have a lot of magics the non rank soldiers are extremely dumb, and can't do more than follow somebody/ basic attack. Whereas Braham, since it has more magic, is above them and more sentient. And having more magic and sentience allow you to direct the ones having less. That's why, if you want to create a recon squad of destroyers, you can't simply put no rank destroyers, you have to put at least a veterran, following order from an elite, getting orders from a champion/legendary. It is a pyramid, this is the role of the megadestroyer in mount maelstrom, the ember knight or leendary wyverns in draconic mons, to be a beacon, controlling all the others destroyers asking them to do. Without them, they return into sentry mode, staying at a place, assaulting somebody going near them, nothin more.

    Why, in the Braham Vision, the different groups are moving, guarding and patrolling around primordius? Because you have a veterran, or an elite, and under the big boss.
    If they were only crabs and basic destroyers trolls they would do nothing. I mean, you need a structure. See jormag it is the same, if the dominion tribunes weren't here, how would you make obey the new grunts? How would you lead offensives without the ffrost legions tribunes or svanir shamans?

    At this point, only chapter 4 will tell us where we are aiming, but Primordius and Jormag dying both in it is more than big.
    Chapter 1 said truce, but the truce disapeared the chapter after. Chapter 2 said power, but what power? Improving jormag one through transforming peoples in ice blocks?
    Chapter 3 is balance, maybe it is about Braham trying to buff primordius. Chapter 4 is called judgement, but I don't feel like there will be one. Maybe aurene will step and do something, or we will face reality that we need help from cantha or deep sea dragon and flee away.
    The chapter trailer always show you a glimpse of the chapter coming after, but this time not, it is strange, like at this point, nothing is planned for chapter 4.
    Chapter 2 trailer shown that tengu, skritts and red tengu weapons were coming, even caledon. There is nothing in case of the chapter 3 one.
    But the big emphasis of chapter 3 trailer is "Something as to change" and braham walking to primordius. Only that. That's why I safely state that most of chapter 4 will be oriented on primordius. Jormag got the two first chapter. Everything in those chapters work with the number 2. DRM divided in 2, 5 for jormag, 5 for primordius
    2 weapon sets, one volcanic, one frosty. 2 champions, one of ice, one of fire. 2 colors in the logo, red and blue.

    I can place my bets that judgement is debating if braham is good or not.

    Joke point: If this end with asura and charr allying with jormag and norn/human with primordius. And sylvari being like "what is happening"? I will die laughing. Especially since we have no news from rata sum.

    Shiny links, take a look!
    ->Ideas: Housing , Designing a new lounge , New GameMode
    ->Project: ASURAN/PRIMORDIUS EXPANSION available on WIKI.
    ->NEW: Crucible of Eternity path 4: Legacy on WIKI
    ->NEW Asurapedia

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2021

    @hugo.4705 said:
    I am sorry, but he is a strategist.

    The problem with this is that, in all of those situations, there is either no tactical advantage, or Primordus takes the least advantageous route.

    • Brisban Wildlands is out in the middle of nowhere, and not even on the main, or even a major, route to Asura or Sylvari lands from Kryta.
    • In Metrica, Primordus's champion goes in the exact opposite direction from Rata Sum, instead of towards it.
    • In Gendarran Fields they attack the Ascalon Settlement, instead of trying to lure people away from LA to attack the bigger prize instead.
    • In Thunderhead its mentioned they are just attracted to the Forge, presumably due to its high magic nature. Like a moth is to flame. Primordus didn't know it could possibly be used against his minions, as no one, not even the Commander or Aruene, knew it could. Its literally a "ohh shiny!" mentality, and not a tactical one.
    • Fireheart Rise isn't much of a big tactical advantage either. The Flame Legion remnants there aren't particularly numerous, powerful, or unified, in any way to put up a sufficient problem to him. Based on the blurb for the episode, they just seem to go there because of magic like in Thunderhead.
    • The only place Primordus has attacked that actually offers some sort of noticeable tactical advantage is Ebonhawke. But even that just seems to be a situation of "that is just where his minions were able to easily emerge from the ground" rather then as part of a large scale plan.

    This compared to Jormag who DOES make logical, tactical, decisions such as

    • Exploit the Asura's hatred of Primordus to get them to help Jormag kill Primordus.
    • Send Ryland to assist the Commander in Brisban to build even the most superficial level of trust.
    • Exploiting said trust to take advantage of Lake Doric preparing to counter a destroyer invasion, by getting them to let the Frost Legion/Icebrood/Svanir in, so they can freeze it for Jormag.
    • Attacks the Kodan village in Snowden to cause a distraction while Ryland goes after Owl, a Spirit of the Wild with massive magical power, that could boost Jormag's own power.
    • Actually attempts to breach into Lion's Arch, and the Dominion of Winds, to freeze/corrupt the people there in the Bloodtide and Caledon DRMs.

    So far, Primordus has just flailed about, like a wild animal attacking anything it sees. Jormag is the one actually using tactics to try to counter Primordus's power.

  • Pax.3548Pax.3548 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Every dragon minion is immediately commanded by a champion. My statement still stands, because even the Great Destroyer was made from rock and lava. So that intelligence had to some from somewhere.

    How are you even measuring the great destroyer's intelligence? how can you tell it apart from, lets say, the intelligence of an ant colony, or the mind of a "pack" leader?, besides for all we Know, Primordious could have been capable of some intellect BEFORE the deaths of three elder dragons an a demi god, after the overload of magic he could have gone mad with a fury state similart of that of Kralk's torment.

    And there's no statement or implication that Primordus had gotten dumber from more magic, even Kralkatorrik had intelligence and personality despite being driven to animalistic tendencies due to Torment.

    Of course, there is no statement or implication that Primordious was intelligent to begin with, since we never interacted with him before, so right now you are ASSUMING as a fact that primordious held some degree of intelligence, without sufficient or clear evidence to back it up, so if you get dissapointed after that its your own fault.

    And your statement here only furthers my own, because animals are not mindless. You're equating Primordus and the destroyers to animals, which are not mindless, but suddenly Primordus is said to be mindless and that's what the Great Spirits are manipulating - the explicit lack of intelligence or mind. Even Kralkatorrik had a mind, and Primordus is being painted as more mindless and destructive than Kralk.

    How in the world did you got the impression that the spirits wanted to manipulate Primordious, they clearly stated they wanted to give Primordious a target, help him focus on his prize, so that he can directly attack Jormag (something that, with or without the intervention of the spirit would have happened from the looks of it, but by doing this the spirits can take the fight straight to Jormag instead of risking Primordious destroying everything before setting off towards his twin).
    Besides, there is suffitient evidence that points out to the fact that Primordious doesn't corrupt life, he destroys it, so why would you be surprise if he's more destructive than Kralk? his minions are called Destroyers for god's sake, how did you expect him to behave? as soft as a cloud? warm as a stove in a winter's night?

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hugo.4705 said:
    Primordius launched assaults on rata sum, gandarran fields, metrica province, field of ruins, thunderhead peaks and brisban wildlands. (don't count fireheart rise, you have braham).
    I am sorry, but he is a strategist. Like Zhaithan did on claw island and LA, he is testing the defenses. Take tyria map. If you completely destroy Metrica + Brisban and assault the asura gates of rata sum you are isolating asura, it is a priority ro cut the asuran gate network. If you turns into ruins gandarran and ebonhawke you cut most of the human reinforcements line, the ones that come by foot that are assigned to queensdale or harathi and the supplies/helps from ebonhawke by cutting another gate network. Why thunderhead peak? It is the new Anti-dragon HQ with eye of the north; but it is easier to attack because far from jormag territory. Primordius was surely aware of the forge and dragonblood weapons, and wanted to get rid of them in case of.

    Just because something looks like it might have a strategy behind it, does not mean that there actually does.

    Consider that out of the seven instances involving Destroyers in the current episode, four of them were regions with known volcanic activity or prior Destroyer activity. The caves south of Metrica are volcanic, Brisban Wildlands has had destroyers in the eastern part of Skrittsberg since release, the Forge uses lava as part of its operation, and Fireheart Rise... well, it's all in the name. All easy locations to reach the surface. Rata Sum is close to regions with volcanic activity as well, so it's probably not too much of a diversion to attack there, especially if Primordus sensed the presence of icebrood there on top of the tasty magic smorgasboard that Rata Sum presents.

    Come to think on it, North Kryta Province had a crevasse in GW1, too (that was how you got to EOTN from central Tyria), so that probably explains Gendarran Fields. And Ebonhawke isn't that far away from Thunderhead Peaks as the destroyer burrows.

    So I don't think these attacks necessarily indicate strategic thinking, especially when we're being told that Primordus is animalistic and lacks the clarity to actually build a strategy against his rival.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2021

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    From what we've seen of Jormag free will to some extent has always been part of it's corruption, Jormag manipulates people onto it's side rather than forcefully corrupts them like Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan did.

    In personal story if you join the priory, your first endeavour will be about the sword made of jormags blood, that was said to be crafted by stone summit dwarves, that upon wounding of someone turns that someone into icebrood - regardless of wether the victim is willing or not. In same storyline a bunch of sons of svanir get's turned into icebrood this way, while actively trying to avoid that fate, and calling their leader - mad.

    True, although Jormag itself doesn't appear to be directly involved in those events.
    Svanir do retain their free will despite loyalty to Jormag so it's very likely that that storyline was based around a rogue Svanir rather than something Jormag actively decreed.

    If the stone summit made the sword then Jormag has little to do with it outside of it being made from it's own blood, Jormag may not even know of it's existence although I doubt that it could not know of something like this.. if anything Jormag did know and just allowed it to be used by whomever got their hands on it.
    I'd actually be curious to hear what Jormag has to say about that sword, but I doubt we'll ever get to have that conversation.

    Well the point was that this event reinforces the idea that forcefull corruption is in ED's blood (pun partially intended), as in Jormag is fully capable to force corrupt living being had they wanted.

    Yeah I didn't put too much stock into Jormag not being able to forcefully corrupt, it is an Elder Dragon as I said :)

    Though that was still an odd circumstance, are there any differences between those specific icebrood and the ones Jormag corrupts with consent?
    We don't know for sure, probably never will.

    As for example of draconic corruption victims mantaining their personality - in personal story again, humans this time, we encounter ex-seraph that got corrupted by zhaitan by the proxy of orrian artifact. Said ex-seraph since corruption has shown up acts on it's own agency by trying to find the way to reverse the effect, and zhaitans undead follow him. And on a side note he also while pursuing the goal of getting himself cleansed of corruption got misled by third party to the deal. So we have precedence for let's say "partial" corruption, dating all the way back to the beggining chapters of original personal story.

    Partial corruption or maybe more accurately to say a stain of corruption which lead to insanity and eventually full corruption.
    I don't think Zhaitan had any control over Kellach during the process where he was going insane and the corruption was taking hold, his actions appear to be entirely his own until he finally snapped upon the realization he was doomed and the corruption fully consumed him.

    Well the only thing "insane" there was in Kellah action tho was that he actually believed that Queens blood had potency to cure draconic corruption, imo. Outside of that all what Kellah said and done seemed quite logical. And yes it didn;t seem like Zhaitan has any hold over him during that period of time. While dialogue hints that in due time he would fall under dragons control, there was a period of time, when Kellah was fully himself - and yet somewhat corrupted beyond redemption.

    Yeah that's why I said it was more like a stain than partial corruption.. kinda like an infection, not corrupted/sick but doomed to be once it finally spreads.
    Also kinda like how a Warewolf curse is showcased in most media if you think about it.. if the change was permanent rather than only on a full moon thing.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    Yeah I didn't put too much stock into Jormag not being able to forcefully corrupt, it is an Elder Dragon as I said :)

    Though that was still an odd circumstance, are there any differences between those specific icebrood and the ones Jormag corrupts with consent?
    We don't know for sure, probably never will.

    Well hard to speak about "willingly converted" icebrood. Closest I am aware off would be Frost Legion, and the main difference between them and regular icebrood is that they still retain some sort of military-esque discipline, as opposed to regular icebrood that just berserkers onto anything that ain't sided with jormag.

    Yeah that's why I said it was more like a stain than partial corruption.. kinda like an infection, not corrupted/sick but doomed to be once it finally spreads.
    Also kinda like how a Warewolf curse is showcased in most media if you think about it.. if the change was permanent rather than only on a full moon thing.

    Well this could fit if we wee talking about uncurable viral infection of sorts, like yeah you aren't technically speaking dead yet, but there is nothing you can do to prevent that virus from killing you off.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Yeah I didn't put too much stock into Jormag not being able to forcefully corrupt, it is an Elder Dragon as I said :)

    Though that was still an odd circumstance, are there any differences between those specific icebrood and the ones Jormag corrupts with consent?
    We don't know for sure, probably never will.

    Well hard to speak about "willingly converted" icebrood. Closest I am aware off would be Frost Legion, and the main difference between them and regular icebrood is that they still retain some sort of military-esque discipline, as opposed to regular icebrood that just berserkers onto anything that ain't sided with jormag.

    I would attribute that more to the cultural differences between Norn and Charr more than anything.
    The Norn don't unify like Charr do into army's etc, at best they form Hunting party's and occasionally will follow a single leader like Braham when he lead them against Jormag but.. a real Army of Norn soldiers has to my knowledge never existed, they're too independent as individuals.

    Yeah that's why I said it was more like a stain than partial corruption.. kinda like an infection, not corrupted/sick but doomed to be once it finally spreads.
    Also kinda like how a Warewolf curse is showcased in most media if you think about it.. if the change was permanent rather than only on a full moon thing.

    Well this could fit if we wee talking about uncurable viral infection of sorts, like yeah you aren't technically speaking dead yet, but there is nothing you can do to prevent that virus from killing you off.

    Yeah pretty much what I was thinking, though a virus tends to be transmissible which is why I thought stain would be a better word or curse..
    Not sure if Kellah corrupted others.. can't remember, but he did murder people.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:

    Yeah that's why I said it was more like a stain than partial corruption.. kinda like an infection, not corrupted/sick but doomed to be once it finally spreads.
    Also kinda like how a Warewolf curse is showcased in most media if you think about it.. if the change was permanent rather than only on a full moon thing.

    Well this could fit if we wee talking about uncurable viral infection of sorts, like yeah you aren't technically speaking dead yet, but there is nothing you can do to prevent that virus from killing you off.

    Yeah pretty much what I was thinking, though a virus tends to be transmissible which is why I thought stain would be a better word or curse..
    Not sure if Kellah corrupted others.. can't remember, but he did murder people.

    There were undead following everywhere he went :P

    That being said tho I think Kellah's condition could be explained by the fact that Zhaitan minions were, well, undead. And Kellah got corrupted alive, instead of usuall for zhaitan "risen have killed him, and he got risen".....

    Anyway it's still precedence xD

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2021

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @hugo.4705 said:
    Primordius launched assaults on rata sum, gandarran fields, metrica province, field of ruins, thunderhead peaks and brisban wildlands. (don't count fireheart rise, you have braham).
    I am sorry, but he is a strategist. Like Zhaithan did on claw island and LA, he is testing the defenses. Take tyria map. If you completely destroy Metrica + Brisban and assault the asura gates of rata sum you are isolating asura, it is a priority ro cut the asuran gate network. If you turns into ruins gandarran and ebonhawke you cut most of the human reinforcements line, the ones that come by foot that are assigned to queensdale or harathi and the supplies/helps from ebonhawke by cutting another gate network. Why thunderhead peak? It is the new Anti-dragon HQ with eye of the north; but it is easier to attack because far from jormag territory. Primordius was surely aware of the forge and dragonblood weapons, and wanted to get rid of them in case of.

    Just because something looks like it might have a strategy behind it, does not mean that there actually does.

    Consider that out of the seven instances involving Destroyers in the current episode, four of them were regions with known volcanic activity or prior Destroyer activity. The caves south of Metrica are volcanic, Brisban Wildlands has had destroyers in the eastern part of Skrittsberg since release, the Forge uses lava as part of its operation, and Fireheart Rise... well, it's all in the name. All easy locations to reach the surface. Rata Sum is close to regions with volcanic activity as well, so it's probably not too much of a diversion to attack there, especially if Primordus sensed the presence of icebrood there on top of the tasty magic smorgasboard that Rata Sum presents.

    Come to think on it, North Kryta Province had a crevasse in GW1, too (that was how you got to EOTN from central Tyria), so that probably explains Gendarran Fields. And Ebonhawke isn't that far away from Thunderhead Peaks as the destroyer burrows.

    So I don't think these attacks necessarily indicate strategic thinking, especially when we're being told that Primordus is animalistic and lacks the clarity to actually build a strategy against his rival.

    In Edge of Destiny, the Destroyer of Life was actively preparing for an assault on Rata Sum. And in Gendarran, there is no volcanic activity (that crevice was likely long filled, and even in GW1 never had destroyer activity beyond those that arrived via asura gate) - on top of that, the destroyer champion uses a feint attack to draw attention away from its actual target.

    And not all attacks were from volcanic activity - Ebonhawke and Divinity's Reach both lack volcanic activity, and neither seem to be coming from the nearby mines/collapse region but the opposite direction. I would disagree that Ebonhawke "isn't that far away" - by that argument, the Black Citadel isn't that far away either.

    The issue with the claim is that the actions don't exactly match the statement, and we're being told that Primordus is incapable of strategizing by Jormag, Taimi, and Raven. Aside from the sudden "he's mindless" by Raven to explain how the Spirits can do it, Jormag is very biased, and Taimi was disproven of her claim as she said it in the Metrica DRM.

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Yeah that's why I said it was more like a stain than partial corruption.. kinda like an infection, not corrupted/sick but doomed to be once it finally spreads.
    Also kinda like how a Warewolf curse is showcased in most media if you think about it.. if the change was permanent rather than only on a full moon thing.

    Well this could fit if we wee talking about uncurable viral infection of sorts, like yeah you aren't technically speaking dead yet, but there is nothing you can do to prevent that virus from killing you off.

    In Bloodtide Coast there's a heart where you can help with a quaggan disease. Those which die and are exposed further to the disease return from the dead in a frenzy. In Sparkfly Fen, Zhaitan's corruption spread to wildlife in sickness.

    The virus comparison for Zhaitan's corruption on the living isn't that far off.

    That said, this doesn't relate to Jormag's blood, or even Zhaitan's blood, since the Orrian relic that corrupted Kellach was an Orrian Sword.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2021

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    In Edge of Destiny, the Destroyer of Life was actively preparing for an assault on Rata Sum.

    Which is something even dumb animals are capable of.

    And in Gendarran, there is no volcanic activity (that crevice was likely long filled, and even in GW1 never had destroyer activity beyond those that arrived via asura gate)

    Doesn't matter, unless they collapsed every single tunnel for miles in every direction of the crevice the area is still much easier for the destroyers to come up in as there are already near surface tunnels in the region.

    on top of that, the destroyer champion uses a feint attack to draw attention away from its actual target.

    Which isn't a particularly high intelligence action. Again, even animals are capable of this.

    And not all attacks were from volcanic activity - Ebonhawke and Divinity's Reach both lack volcanic activity, and neither seem to be coming from the nearby mines/collapse region but the opposite direction. I would disagree that Ebonhawke "isn't that far away" - by that argument, the Black Citadel isn't that far away either.

    Doesn't change the fact that if there are already mines, its likely the area has tunnels we don't directly see under them/around them that makes it easier for destroyers to come up there.

    The issue with the claim is that the actions don't exactly match the statement, and we're being told that Primordus is incapable of strategizing by Jormag, Taimi, and Raven. Aside from the sudden "he's mindless" by Raven to explain how the Spirits can do it, Jormag is very biased, and Taimi was disproven of her claim as she said it in the Metrica DRM.

    Except they do. As already stated by many people, the Destroyer's actions are no more intelligent then normal animals. They show now truly intelligent moves or tactics. And Taimi's claim was proven by the very DRM she said it in because the Destroyer champion took the unintelligent action of going AWAY from the population center instead of toward it.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Except they do. As already stated by many people, the Destroyer's actions are no more intelligent then normal animals. They show now truly intelligent moves or tactics. And Taimi's claim was proven by the very DRM she said it in because the Destroyer champion took the unintelligent action of going AWAY from the population center instead of toward it.

    Could this also be a trait of the Kralkatorrik’s Fury sphere being displayed as it appears to be an effect of the “feedback loop”, which makes the destroyers rabid or in a fury? Even if the destroyers had any sort of intelligence or in most animal cases, instincts, maybe it’s being overwritten by the Fury Sphere, which could explain why the destroyers are almost attacking at random.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Could this also be a trait of the Kralkatorrik’s Fury sphere being displayed as it appears to be an effect of the “feedback loop”, which makes the destroyers rabid or in a fury? Even if the destroyers had any sort of intelligence or in most animal cases, instincts, maybe it’s being overwritten by the Fury Sphere, which could explain why the destroyers are almost attacking at random.

    I would find that unlikely given that Kralkatorrik, and the branded, showed more overall intelligence then the destroyers have shown.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Could this also be a trait of the Kralkatorrik’s Fury sphere being displayed as it appears to be an effect of the “feedback loop”, which makes the destroyers rabid or in a fury? Even if the destroyers had any sort of intelligence or in most animal cases, instincts, maybe it’s being overwritten by the Fury Sphere, which could explain why the destroyers are almost attacking at random.

    I would find that unlikely given that Kralkatorrik, and the branded, showed more overall intelligence then the destroyers have shown.

    Maybe, but the branded might be more accustomed to this sphere then the destroyers are. Taimi also advised that the destroyers are becoming more rabid, which could be the Fury Sphere as this appears to be gained from Kralkatorrik magic.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    Yeah that's why I said it was more like a stain than partial corruption.. kinda like an infection, not corrupted/sick but doomed to be once it finally spreads.
    Also kinda like how a Warewolf curse is showcased in most media if you think about it.. if the change was permanent rather than only on a full moon thing.

    Well this could fit if we wee talking about uncurable viral infection of sorts, like yeah you aren't technically speaking dead yet, but there is nothing you can do to prevent that virus from killing you off.

    Yeah pretty much what I was thinking, though a virus tends to be transmissible which is why I thought stain would be a better word or curse..
    Not sure if Kellah corrupted others.. can't remember, but he did murder people.

    There were undead following everywhere he went :P

    That being said tho I think Kellah's condition could be explained by the fact that Zhaitan minions were, well, undead. And Kellah got corrupted alive, instead of usuall for zhaitan "risen have killed him, and he got risen".....

    Anyway it's still precedence xD

    Yea he was like a beacon for them.. or a magnet.
    They could sense the corruption in him, their masters magic and probably got confused and mistook him for some kind of higher risen or something.
    Some of Zhaitans stronger minions seemed to have a higher level of intelligence than your basic risen.. perhaps that was a factor as well.
    Or it could be that they were just protecting him until he turned completely.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Yeah that's why I said it was more like a stain than partial corruption.. kinda like an infection, not corrupted/sick but doomed to be once it finally spreads.
    Also kinda like how a Warewolf curse is showcased in most media if you think about it.. if the change was permanent rather than only on a full moon thing.

    Well this could fit if we wee talking about uncurable viral infection of sorts, like yeah you aren't technically speaking dead yet, but there is nothing you can do to prevent that virus from killing you off.

    In Bloodtide Coast there's a heart where you can help with a quaggan disease. Those which die and are exposed further to the disease return from the dead in a frenzy. In Sparkfly Fen, Zhaitan's corruption spread to wildlife in sickness.

    The virus comparison for Zhaitan's corruption on the living isn't that far off.

    That said, this doesn't relate to Jormag's blood, or even Zhaitan's blood, since the Orrian relic that corrupted Kellach was an Orrian Sword.

    Zhaitan does have plague like tactics that is true but I don't think they apply in Kellach's case of corruption.
    It seems like an isolated event.. he didn't corrupt others to my knowledge, as far as I can tell he only attracted Risen to follow him around and attack places that he had been.
    Unless I am overlooking something, it's been a while since I played that story content but I don't recall any case of Kellach corrupting others or making people sick.. his corruption seemed to only effect him.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Except they do. As already stated by many people, the Destroyer's actions are no more intelligent then normal animals. They show now truly intelligent moves or tactics. And Taimi's claim was proven by the very DRM she said it in because the Destroyer champion took the unintelligent action of going AWAY from the population center instead of toward it.

    Your argument of "animals are dumb dumbs" aside, how is it smarter to go at the major population center floating in the sky when you're injured and outnumbered? Versus going to a location of magic to heal and strengthen. As it stands, I'm very glad you're not a military leader, because your definition of smart tactics is apparently "just keep throwing soldiers at the enemy".

    Besides, that's not what Taimi said - she wasn't saying it was stupid for going to the arena, she said:

    Taimi: How do you—that doesn't even make any sense: the portal's over here.
    Taimi: Destroyers definitely do not have reason... New algorithm's almost locked on. Hold just a sec—

    She says it doesn't make sense because she expects the destroyers to not have reason.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Zhaitan does have plague like tactics that is true but I don't think they apply in Kellach's case of corruption.
    It seems like an isolated event.. he didn't corrupt others to my knowledge, as far as I can tell he only attracted Risen to follow him around and attack places that he had been.
    Unless I am overlooking something, it's been a while since I played that story content but I don't recall any case of Kellach corrupting others or making people sick.. his corruption seemed to only effect him.

    I was pointing out that the relation of Kellach's situation to being like a (non-transmitting) virus that kills him may not be far off given other situations of Zhaitan's corruption interacting with the living.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2021

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    She says it doesn't make sense because she expects the destroyers to not have reason.

    It never ceases to amaze me how you manage to warp incredibly basic wording into something entirely different from what is plainly there.

    She says the destroyers don't have any reason because the action its taking doesn't make sense, not because she expects them to not have reason. Hence her pointing out that Rata sum's gateway is in the other direction. Its actions not making sense is the reason why she used the word "definitely". Its illogical actions are affirming that it has no reason.

    Its like when someone makes the comment of "I wonder if I forgot to turn off the stove" then they turn around and see their house on fire and go "yep, definitely forgot to turn off the stove". They didn't expect their house to be on fire, or that they forgot to turn off the stove, it was a question about a possibility. The direct evidence of their house being on fire is the confirmation, thus the use of the word definitely.

    This is plain English, and a common phrasing used all over the place.

    I also love how you deliberately remove the context of Taimi's words by not including Braham's previous comment about the destroyer going to the arena, which is what Taimi was responding to. She didn't make the comment out of thin air, she made the comment as a response to Braham pointing out where its going. That isn't her saying something based off of expectation, that is her saying something based on a current hard fact.

    Your argument of "animals are dumb dumbs" aside

    That isn't the actual argument.

    Versus going to a location of magic to heal and strengthen

    Except
    A. Rata Sum has more magic then the literally magicless arena, and destroyers almost overran the city earlier that day. So its not exactly a hard target to breach.
    B. The destroyer doesn't heal itself, or get any stronger.
    Now you are just bold face making things up.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 19, 2021

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    It never ceases to amaze me how you manage to warp incredibly basic wording into something entirely different from what is plainly there.

    She says the destroyers don't have any reason because the action its taking doesn't make sense, not because she expects them to not have reason. Hence her pointing out that Rata sum's gateway is in the other direction. Its actions not making sense is the reason why she used the word "definitely". Its illogical actions are affirming that it has no reason.

    So you're saying my interpretation is invalid, while your interpretation is valid. Fair opinion, but I literally quoted what Taimi said and she said that destroyers don't have reason and that's why she thinks it's going after Rata Sum. Because attacking Rata Sum would be illogical in the destroyer's state - injured and alone, attacking a heavily fortified chokepoint? Only something mindless would do that.

    There's also a bit of irony with you quoting Taimi as infalible here...

    People have a bad habit of taking everything every NPC says as some word of god, 100% literal, undeniable, truth, when no writer writes NPCs that way. Everything is written from the perspective of that character, at tat time, with the knowledge they have at that moment.

    You had this issue when Taimi went and proclaimed "but dragon minions can't be corrupted!" back in Season 4.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    I also love how you deliberately remove the context of Taimi's words by not including Braham's previous comment about the destroyer going to the arena, which is what Taimi was responding to.

    I didn't remove that context at all though, I specifically mention what the destroyer was going to.

    Your argument of "animals are dumb dumbs" aside

    That isn't the actual argument.

    You have a weird way to argue otherwise, given you repeatedly say that.

    Except
    A. Rata Sum has more magic then the literally magicless arena, and destroyers almost overran the city earlier that day. So its not exactly a hard target to breach.
    B. The destroyer doesn't heal itself, or get any stronger.
    Now you are just bold face making things up.

    A. The arena has countless magical artifacts being used in it, there has to be residual magic, not to mention in the DRM's beginning there are dozens of golems around it too. The city, counterly, is literally out of reach given the fact it's floating except through asura gate and both the gate and city are heavily defended and obviously so.
    B. Because we get on it immediately.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I was pointing out that the relation of Kellach's situation to being like a (non-transmitting) virus that kills him may not be far off given other situations of Zhaitan's corruption interacting with the living.

    I'm not very informed on viruses but I was under the assumption that part of what defines a virus is that it is transmittable within the same species.
    The only non transmittable viruses I am aware of are ones that can't transcend the species barrier from X species to humans.
    That's why the virus comparison seemed odd to me.. if Kellach's corruption was like a virus i'd expect it to spread to others he interacted with like we've seen happen with other examples you provided.
    That's why I associated it more with a curse/stain, because it wasn't transmittable and Kellach was the only direct victim.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I was pointing out that the relation of Kellach's situation to being like a (non-transmitting) virus that kills him may not be far off given other situations of Zhaitan's corruption interacting with the living.

    I'm not very informed on viruses but I was under the assumption that part of what defines a virus is that it is transmittable within the same species.
    The only non transmittable viruses I am aware of are ones that can't transcend the species barrier from X species to humans.
    That's why the virus comparison seemed odd to me.. if Kellach's corruption was like a virus i'd expect it to spread to others he interacted with like we've seen happen with other examples you provided.
    That's why I associated it more with a curse/stain, because it wasn't transmittable and Kellach was the only direct victim.

    I'm pretty sure that the use of the term "virus" in reference to Kellach isn't meant to be literal, but merely a comparison. Curse isn't a bad comparison either, imo, just that virus better described a specific aspect of Zhaitan's corruption.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I was pointing out that the relation of Kellach's situation to being like a (non-transmitting) virus that kills him may not be far off given other situations of Zhaitan's corruption interacting with the living.

    I'm not very informed on viruses but I was under the assumption that part of what defines a virus is that it is transmittable within the same species.
    The only non transmittable viruses I am aware of are ones that can't transcend the species barrier from X species to humans.
    That's why the virus comparison seemed odd to me.. if Kellach's corruption was like a virus i'd expect it to spread to others he interacted with like we've seen happen with other examples you provided.
    That's why I associated it more with a curse/stain, because it wasn't transmittable and Kellach was the only direct victim.

    In addition to what Greyhawk said, Zhaitan's corruption very much is transmittable, even if Kellach himself didn't noticeably transmit. Wielding corrupted artifacts seems to be the method of tranmission (as seen with Rissa's amulets and the fact Kellach never let go of his Orrian sword). If it were a literal disease and not a magical one, then it would be via direct contact or liquid transmission, rather than being air-born.

    Though I tend to relate magic more to radiation than diseases, given that there's a large amount of relating magical corruption to permeation and duration of contact such as the Ossuary of the Unquiet Dead instance, CoE, and Thaumanova.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Super Hayes.6890Super Hayes.6890 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Maybe the elder dragons all die and somehow ressurect Zaihtan as he was made of the corpses of other dragons in the first place. Maybe that's how the imbalance corrects itself. His existence suggests this happened some time way in the past too. Just a crazy theory I've had stuck in my head for a few days now. Seems appropriate for an undead dragon... He could be the primary villian in EoD though even I admit that is a stretch.

    The next time you get angry at someone try walking a mile in their shoes. After that, who cares! You're a mile away and you have their shoes! -Someone with more awesome quotes than me

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Super Hayes.6890 said:
    Maybe the elder dragons all die and somehow ressurect Zaihtan as he was made of the corpses of other dragons in the first place. Maybe that's how the imbalance corrects itself. His existence suggests this happened some time way in the past too. Just a crazy theory I've had stuck in my head for a few days now. Seems appropriate for an undead dragon... He could be the primary villian in EoD though even I admit that is a stretch.

    This quite annoyed me in the past as well, Undead Dragon gets booms in the face and he just dies...

    I really wanted Zhaitan to be more along the lines of a Lich.. something that keeps coming back until we find a way to put him down for good.

    Joko kinda displayed this a little in Gw2 though only the once before he got Ate.
    But back in Gw1 we killed Khilbron several times before his soul was finally consumed by the Soul Batteries through a Bloodstone.
    That was a good way to kill a Lich and I wish Zhaitan had come back at least once so we could have had a better fight with him, even if he was flightless and crippled now and we had to fight him on the ground, that would have been cool.

  • Super Hayes.6890Super Hayes.6890 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Super Hayes.6890 said:
    Maybe the elder dragons all die and somehow ressurect Zaihtan as he was made of the corpses of other dragons in the first place. Maybe that's how the imbalance corrects itself. His existence suggests this happened some time way in the past too. Just a crazy theory I've had stuck in my head for a few days now. Seems appropriate for an undead dragon... He could be the primary villian in EoD though even I admit that is a stretch.

    This quite annoyed me in the past as well, Undead Dragon gets booms in the face and he just dies...

    I really wanted Zhaitan to be more along the lines of a Lich.. something that keeps coming back until we find a way to put him down for good.

    Joko kinda displayed this a little in Gw2 though only the once before he got Ate.
    But back in Gw1 we killed Khilbron several times before his soul was finally consumed by the Soul Batteries through a Bloodstone.
    That was a good way to kill a Lich and I wish Zhaitan had come back at least once so we could have had a better fight with him, even if he was flightless and crippled now and we had to fight him on the ground, that would have been cool.

    If they were ever gonna do it, now would be a good time. I highly doubt they would but I want to fight him again. Every time I take an alt through the story I can't help but think they should not have killed the undead elder dragon first. IBS could use a twist like this right at the end imo.

    The next time you get angry at someone try walking a mile in their shoes. After that, who cares! You're a mile away and you have their shoes! -Someone with more awesome quotes than me

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Super Hayes.6890 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Super Hayes.6890 said:
    Maybe the elder dragons all die and somehow ressurect Zaihtan as he was made of the corpses of other dragons in the first place. Maybe that's how the imbalance corrects itself. His existence suggests this happened some time way in the past too. Just a crazy theory I've had stuck in my head for a few days now. Seems appropriate for an undead dragon... He could be the primary villian in EoD though even I admit that is a stretch.

    This quite annoyed me in the past as well, Undead Dragon gets booms in the face and he just dies...

    I really wanted Zhaitan to be more along the lines of a Lich.. something that keeps coming back until we find a way to put him down for good.

    Joko kinda displayed this a little in Gw2 though only the once before he got Ate.
    But back in Gw1 we killed Khilbron several times before his soul was finally consumed by the Soul Batteries through a Bloodstone.
    That was a good way to kill a Lich and I wish Zhaitan had come back at least once so we could have had a better fight with him, even if he was flightless and crippled now and we had to fight him on the ground, that would have been cool.

    If they were ever gonna do it, now would be a good time. I highly doubt they would but I want to fight him again. Every time I take an alt through the story I can't help but think they should not have killed the undead elder dragon first. IBS could use a twist like this right at the end imo.

    I think it's way too late now with the whole other Dragons having the Death spectrum magic but I do agree with you that Zhaitan probably shouldn't have been first to go.

    Should probably have been Kralk or Jormag maybe.. but I don't think either of those Dragons would have been done half as well as they were if they had been first to go either.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In retrospect, given where we are currently and how the dragons have evolved.. it really does seem pretty silly to think about how Zhaitan just kind of.. got beamed down and that was that. I mean I know there was the whole starving him of magic and killing of his eyes and mouth thing but the fact that we haven't been able to do that with any other elder dragons sense and seemingly always had to go into their mind or some other domain to be able to damage them like we did with Kralk makes the whole fight seem even more lackluster and fake in a sense.

    But I feel like that's more of a symptom of the writing in this game in general. I mean I know they've mentioned several times about x has led to y or they've been building up to something or a long time - and it's true they may have some rough general outline of major plot events.. but the details in between and how they get to certain points has always felt like an afterthought leaving the story susceptible to a lot of things that feel contradictory or out of place.

    I mean, given the format they're trying to tell the story in and the story they're trying to tell, I'm not sure they really could have done it much differently and some of these devices may have been necessary to push the story forward, but it can definitely be frustrating sometimes when you're paying really close attention and feel as though something should have gone more in depth or in a different direction.

    I think the most frustrating thing for me is less about the inconsistences and more about the fact that there's just so much more story they could tell and the world they have to pull from is so rich just in the context we currently have but it's always so linear and focused. I think that's why I liked the little collection achievement books like the Parables in Siren's Landing and the books on Joko, etc. It gave us just a taste of something more without having to deviate from the main plot.

    I think in general IBS has really just been the most disappointing though. There's so much I was expecting to see in this chapter, in this region. The cryptic stone circle regarding the facets in Valajar Fells? Is that the name? I never saw it in Guild Wars 1 but it always seemed like it could be a really cool mystery to discover in this game. There's also the origin of Jotun and discovering potential ruins and learning more about what they were like before they fell. The Eye of the North, who built it, and potentially finding some non-extinct Seers. The being in the Deepstone Fractal that seems to speak the same language that's on those tablets in the stone circle. The origin of the Spirits of the Wild. Even the prophecy with Braham was pretty much just concluded in a few lines of dialogue as "Oh - Braham's just becoming the champion of another elder dragon." And I'm sure they'll get more into this in the next chapter but still.

    It feels like we just spent WAY too much time dealing with Charr politics and having Bangar and Ryland as this weird plot device to pull us to Jormag. I don't know. Maybe some people liked that. And I did like Grothmar. Just preference for me. I'm more of a origin story, mysticism and such kind of lore nut versus some people that are more about present story/dialogue driven.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2021

    @Bast.7253 said:
    I think in general IBS has really just been the most disappointing though. There's so much I was expecting to see in this chapter, in this region. The cryptic stone circle regarding the facets in Valajar Fells? Is that the name? I never saw it in Guild Wars 1 but it always seemed like it could be a really cool mystery to discover in this game.

    That was already deciphered back in GW1, and it was talking about the dragons, and finding answers in Orr. Which vanilla covered with the Arah explorable paths.

    There's also the origin of Jotun and discovering potential ruins and learning more about what they were like before they fell.

    Given that all Jotun ruins are to the south in GW2, and even back in EoTN we never saw any Jotun ruins in the Far Shiverpeaks, why would we have found any answers to the Jotun in a place they demonstrably didn't live in?

    and potentially finding some non-extinct Seers.

    Similarly, why would there be Seers up here when nothing suggests they were ever up here?

    The origin of the Spirits of the Wild.
    The Eye of the North, who built it

    Both of these are things I doubt we would ave ever gotten answers to.
    -Given what we know of the lore behind the Spirits, every animal, and even natural features/forces like fire, darkness, mountains, and seasons, have spirits associated with them. There is nothing to suggest that these things haven't just existed as naturally forming entities since the early days of the world. They are just entities that exist as part of the natural world.
    -The Eye is so old that, even back in GW1, it was established that literally no one alive knew its origin, and its design doesn't match any known race. The thing probably dates back multiple cycles, and was made by some race whose name is lost to time. They were likely drawn there by the powers of the water, as Aurene was, and as the Gods were to the Artesian Waters in Orr.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    I think in general IBS has really just been the most disappointing though. There's so much I was expecting to see in this chapter, in this region. The cryptic stone circle regarding the facets in Valajar Fells? Is that the name? I never saw it in Guild Wars 1 but it always seemed like it could be a really cool mystery to discover in this game.

    That was already deciphered back in GW1, and it was talking about the dragons, and finding answers in Orr. Which vanilla covered with the Arah explorable paths.

    There's also the origin of Jotun and discovering potential ruins and learning more about what they were like before they fell.

    Given that all Jotun ruins are to the south in GW2, and even back in EoTN we never saw any Jotun ruins in the Far Shiverpeaks, why would we have found any answers to the Jotun in a place they demonstrably didn't live in?

    and potentially finding some non-extinct Seers.

    Similarly, why would there be Seers up here when nothing suggests they were ever up here?

    The origin of the Spirits of the Wild.
    The Eye of the North, who built it

    Both of these are things I doubt we would ave ever gotten answers to.
    -Given what we know of the lore behind the Spirits, every animal, and even natural features/forces like fire, darkness, mountains, and seasons, have spirits associated with them. There is nothing to suggest that these things haven't just existed as naturally forming entities since the early days of the world. They are just entities that exist as part of the natural world.
    -The Eye is so old that, even back in GW1, it was established that literally no one alive knew its origin, and its design doesn't match any known race. The thing probably dates back multiple cycles, and was made by some race whose name is lost to time. They were likely drawn there by the powers of the water, as Aurene was, and as the Gods were to the Artesian Waters in Orr.

    How is it talking about the Elder Dragons and Orr? I'm missing that part on the wiki.

    As to the Jotun - I was referring to the places we didn't see in Guild Wars 1 that could have became zones in Guild Wars 2. We don't really know enough about them to know much about their origin or their territory.

    As to the seers, we have the southern shiverpeaks. I doubt it's that unreasonable to assume there could have been further north.

    I mean, I'm really just implying story building and expanding on current knowledge. I'm not sure why we have to follow the first franchise word per word or location per location. It was more or less hoping that exploring new regions in this game would allow them to dive deeper into some of those other races and some of the lore that isn't immediately impactful to the elder dragon plot. But perhaps that stuff is for further down the line.

    I don't mind the elder dragon plot, it just feels like they could have tied in some of this other stuff rather than shoehorning Charr politics into the mix. But that's just a personal preference.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 17, 2021

    @Bast.7253 said:
    How is it talking about the Elder Dragons and Orr? I'm missing that part on the wiki.

    The message, when translated, mentions answers on distant shores of a land unwaking. That place being Orr, a distant place full of undead, which held answers to the Elder Dragons in it via the knowledge the gods collected.

    Even one of the Anet devs suggested this years ago
    https://www.killtenrats.com/2009/09/02/guild-wars-2-interview/

    Kerrsh’s quest line in Eye of the North (ending with the quest The Path to Revelations) is a hotly debated topic on the lore forums. Why are the facets of the human gods depicted as dragons? Can the gods’ cryptic message be explained in terms of Guild Wars 2?
    Dragons are power, and the facets reflect the nature of the power that the human gods have harnessed. Both the Asuran Central Transfer Chamber and the City of Arah were built on places of power, which turned out to be directly over Elder Dragons.
    It is possible that the cryptic message refers to the Dragons – “a land unwaking” could be the risen kingdom of Orr, and answers to the origin of the dragons do lie there.