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The Solution to WvW? DAoC should be your guide.

Haseno.6417Haseno.6417 Member ✭✭
edited March 7, 2021 in WvW

I haven't played the game in a while. I'm reinstalling as I speak as I type this. I've been MMORPG homeless for a while. I always eventually come back to games to check out the state of the game. I check out the forums to get a general comprehension of the state of the game as well.

The issues in WvW, are not exclusive to games like GW2. Most MMORPG's fail to address the issues in their large scale PVP combat. ESO is an example, GW2 is also an example.

While there is niche issues such as siege issues or general profession/class issues. Most people will complain about combat itself in large scale-combat. The #1 complaint always ends up being zergs, or in GW2, they're referred to as blobs.

Blobs/zergs are annoying, and reward zero skill-gameplay. They crush smaller groups, solo players, and overwhelm in siege warfare.

The same thing always happens in these MMORPG's. And you want to know why? Game Developers are too afraid to allow players to have powerful Crowd Control. That is the key to defeating zergs/blobs. In past games like Dark Age of Camelot, which is historic for its large-scale PVP/RVR gameplay, and has received more awards for their RVR than many present MMORPG's. Players in that game could be a smaller group and overwhelm zergs. People would even build 8-man groups dedicated to zergbusting. It was only possible because the game developers allowed classes to possess powerful crowd control. Whereas, most gamers today will cry foul when experiencing such powerful crowd control. Gamers and game developers are their own worst enemy in this regard. "Balance" is a relative term in gaming. One player may look at such powerful crowd control as game breaking. But, as part of that double-edged sword. That powerful crowd control is a necessary tool to allow one dynamic of combat to be put in check. Specifically, that dynamic being zergs/blobs. Smaller groups having the means to overcome overwhelming odds is balance in large-scale PVP/RVR/WVW. In DAoC, those smaller groups had to get the element of surprise or be fortunate enough to get their crowd control off first in order to overcome a zerg. But, because it was possible, it allowed such balance to occur. Zergs could still wipe out smaller groups. But, smaller groups had the means to fight back. You lack that in GW2, ESO, and many more MMORPGS. As a result, who brings overwhelming numbers is generally the winner and it becomes a DPS race to zero rather than a fight of skill, tactics, playstyle, or group composition.

They run afoul because you lack the crowd control as a means of counter-warfare. In DAoC, a pac healer would drop an AOE Mezz on a zerg, then an AoE stun. Then the casters would PBAOE the zergs down. You can watch oldschool DAoC videos of groups like FUN II beating entire zergs as an 8-man team. You can watch famous DAoC groups like Team-Wizzy, who was literally 1 guy boxing multiple accounts with PBAOE Ice Wizards and 2 additional players to heal and provide minstrel speed. They would down entire zergs, and crowd control was the key to doing so. It obviously had to be executed correctly, but, it was the pinnacle of large-scale RVR balance. WvW/RvR should not be a battle of "the most numbers wins." Smaller groups should be provided the toolkit necessary to overcome the odds. WvW will not be fixed until THAT is a reality.

Good luck doing that in GW2 and most modern mmorpg's. You aren't given the toolkit to make that a reality. And yet, DAoC had the best large-scale PVP combat of all time and won the most awards consistently for nearly 2 decades to prove it.

<1

Comments

  • Sansar.1302Sansar.1302 Member ✭✭✭

    So true, there have to be a way to bust blobs as they plow down all smal scale and solos.

    It is one critcal thing that is missing in Guild wars 2 wvw, but so many players love these semi pve blobs and blocks all changes that make them less powerfull.

  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭

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  • Sansar.1302Sansar.1302 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2021

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    So what you are saying is that 1 person multiboxing is the solution. Hm.

    There is an issue with that I cant quite put my finger on.

    That where an example on what a coordinated grp could do ( not many could do this as it took alot of skill to do as a multi boxer and bad enemies)

    The point here where that smaler grps had the tools to kill big grps if skilled and coordinated.

  • Sansar.1302Sansar.1302 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2021

    And there have been multi boxers in wvw too (esp in the ppt part )

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    People would even build 8-man groups dedicated to zergbusting. It was only possible because the game developers allowed classes to possess powerful crowd control. Whereas, most gamers today will cry foul when experiencing such powerful crowd control. Gamers and game developers are their own worst enemy in this regard.

    While I look very fondly back to my days with DAoC, probably more rose colored then I should, there are reasons balance has moved on from those days.

    First off, in your given scenario, how many players are having fun versus those getting "farmed"? That's a very tough balance to get right because no one likes to be a free loot pinata.

    Second, and this has been established over multiple MMORPGs, one of the main gripes players have, besides being stealth engaged, is loss of character control. The perception of not being able to have any hand in ones fate is very off-putting, no matter how high that chance might have actually been. Say you get jumped by 10 players, chances of escape are 0, if the player gets rooted, feared or stunned in place, the perception is again different than just getting run down. Even if the end result was predictable from the start.

    Finally, DAoC came out during a time when MMORPGs where in their baby shoes. The vast majority of players was incompetent, even more so than now. This was valid for all area of the game btw. Gaming has matured. There are guides, videos, exchange of knowledge on a constant basis. The reason those 8 man groups worked in DAoC was because they were a minority. An occasional blip of: "yeah, it's guild XYZ. They got us good". Distances and time to fight were far longer in DAoC than here. If implemented today in GW2, you would get a ton of guild groups roaming around (we already do have that and guilds destroying squads of players twice their group size) able to delete an entire map blob over and over. Net result: the other sides log off.

    For anyone who has never experienced this:
    It is not unusual, especially during reset time, that one or both weaker sides simply log off or just ppt and dodge if one sides dominates to much. Commanders of different servers already try to combat such situation via organizing fights in the EotM as to get in some good rounds of squad vs squad fights.

  • Haseno.6417Haseno.6417 Member ✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sansar.1302 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    So what you are saying is that 1 person multiboxing is the solution. Hm.

    There is an issue with that I cant quite put my finger on.

    That where an example on what a coordinated grp could do ( not many could do this as it took alot of skill to do as a multi boxer and bad enemies)

    The point here where that smaler grps had the tools to kill big grps if skilled and coordinated.

    Smaller groups already has the tools to do that in GW2. You want to know why it doesnt work in a similar fashion?

    Boons. Tons and tons of boons.

    We already saw what happened when this "fail" due to cc/stability redesign years back and lo and behold, zergs where locked down and the pirateship meta was born. And incidently, people hated it so much that Anet buffed stability through the roof and made zergs practically un-CCable. And people loved it.

    And well, rally doesnt help either.

    Boons exist in GW2. Concentration Buffs existed in DAoC.

    The amount of buffs you had in DAoC did not matter, and would not matter in GW2.

    Crowd Control is what made DAoC RVR excel above all the other MMORPG's and their large-scale PVP combat.

  • Sansar.1302Sansar.1302 Member ✭✭✭

    @Haseno.6417 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sansar.1302 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    So what you are saying is that 1 person multiboxing is the solution. Hm.

    There is an issue with that I cant quite put my finger on.

    That where an example on what a coordinated grp could do ( not many could do this as it took alot of skill to do as a multi boxer and bad enemies)

    The point here where that smaler grps had the tools to kill big grps if skilled and coordinated.

    Smaller groups already has the tools to do that in GW2. You want to know why it doesnt work in a similar fashion?

    Boons. Tons and tons of boons.

    We already saw what happened when this "fail" due to cc/stability redesign years back and lo and behold, zergs where locked down and the pirateship meta was born. And incidently, people hated it so much that Anet buffed stability through the roof and made zergs practically un-CCable. And people loved it.

    And well, rally doesnt help either.

    Boons exist in GW2. Concentration Buffs existed in DAoC.

    The amount of buffs you had in DAoC did not matter, and would not matter in GW2.

    Crowd Control is what made DAoC RVR excel above all the other MMORPG's and their large-scale PVP combat.

    Totaly agree

  • Haseno.6417Haseno.6417 Member ✭✭
    edited March 7, 2021

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    People would even build 8-man groups dedicated to zergbusting. It was only possible because the game developers allowed classes to possess powerful crowd control. Whereas, most gamers today will cry foul when experiencing such powerful crowd control. Gamers and game developers are their own worst enemy in this regard.

    While I look very fondly back to my days with DAoC, probably more rose colored then I should, there are reasons balance has moved on from those days.

    First off, in your given scenario, how many players are having fun versus those getting "farmed"? That's a very tough balance to get right because no one likes to be a free loot pinata.

    Second, and this has been established over multiple MMORPGs, one of the main gripes players have, besides being stealth engaged, is loss of character control. The perception of not being able to have any hand in ones fate is very off-putting, no matter how high that chance might have actually been. Say you get jumped by 10 players, chances of escape are 0, if the player gets rooted, feared or stunned in place, the perception is again different than just getting run down. Even if the end result was predictable from the start.

    Finally, DAoC came out during a time when MMORPGs where in their baby shoes. The vast majority of players was incompetent, even more so than now. This was valid for all area of the game btw. Gaming has matured. There are guides, videos, exchange of knowledge on a constant basis. The reason those 8 man groups worked in DAoC was because they were a minority. An occasional blip of: "yeah, it's guild XYZ. They got us good". Distances and time to fight were far longer in DAoC than here. If implemented today in GW2, you would get a ton of guild groups roaming around (we already do have that and guilds destroying squads of players twice their group size) able to delete an entire map blob over and over. Net result: the other sides log off.

    For anyone who has never experienced this:
    It is not unusual, especially during reset time, that one or both weaker sides simply log off or just ppt and dodge if one sides dominates to much. Commanders of different servers already try to combat such situation via organizing fights in the EotM as to get in some good rounds of squad vs squad fights.

    I also look fondly back at my DAoC days. No, it's not simply a matter of nostalgia. The crowd control is what made DAoC's large scale RvR excel above every other MMORPG that has tried it. It single handedly was able to turn entire fights around when players used it effectively. When you didn't execute your crowd control effectively, you had to work much harder to win (especially against zergs).

    Yes, people hate "losing character control." But, it's also a necessary combat feature of MMORPG combat in order for groups to reliably take down overwhelming odds of players. No MMORPG, and no MMORPG developer has successfully been able to recreate the excellence of DAoC RvR. The crowd control is exclusively one of the reasons why.

    Does it have to be to the extent of DAoC? No, DAoC's crowd control was incredibly long per duration. Their Realm Rank system also helped alleviate that over time, by access to Determination which reduced CC timers, or Purge which removed Mezz/Stun on a timer. This was well-executed from the developer side and was a success per the results for the game in totality.

    Does it need to be a straight up copy of DAoC? No. But, the philosophy behind it is sound logic.

    There's a reason why tens of thousands of players across the MMORPG-Universe have consistently said a DAoC 2.0 is needed.

  • Haseno.6417Haseno.6417 Member ✭✭
    edited March 7, 2021

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    So what you are saying is that 1 person multiboxing is the solution. Hm.

    There is an issue with that I cant quite put my finger on.

    No. TeamWizzy was a freak of nature back then. I only cited him as an example as to why crowd control is necessary for outnumbered players to have a chance of securing victory. DAoC, and people like TeamWizzy, are the very origin of the phrase "bomb group" in MMORPG PVP combat.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2021

    @Haseno.6417 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    People would even build 8-man groups dedicated to zergbusting. It was only possible because the game developers allowed classes to possess powerful crowd control. Whereas, most gamers today will cry foul when experiencing such powerful crowd control. Gamers and game developers are their own worst enemy in this regard.

    While I look very fondly back to my days with DAoC, probably more rose colored then I should, there are reasons balance has moved on from those days.

    First off, in your given scenario, how many players are having fun versus those getting "farmed"? That's a very tough balance to get right because no one likes to be a free loot pinata.

    Second, and this has been established over multiple MMORPGs, one of the main gripes players have, besides being stealth engaged, is loss of character control. The perception of not being able to have any hand in ones fate is very off-putting, no matter how high that chance might have actually been. Say you get jumped by 10 players, chances of escape are 0, if the player gets rooted, feared or stunned in place, the perception is again different than just getting run down. Even if the end result was predictable from the start.

    Finally, DAoC came out during a time when MMORPGs where in their baby shoes. The vast majority of players was incompetent, even more so than now. This was valid for all area of the game btw. Gaming has matured. There are guides, videos, exchange of knowledge on a constant basis. The reason those 8 man groups worked in DAoC was because they were a minority. An occasional blip of: "yeah, it's guild XYZ. They got us good". Distances and time to fight were far longer in DAoC than here. If implemented today in GW2, you would get a ton of guild groups roaming around (we already do have that and guilds destroying squads of players twice their group size) able to delete an entire map blob over and over. Net result: the other sides log off.

    For anyone who has never experienced this:
    It is not unusual, especially during reset time, that one or both weaker sides simply log off or just ppt and dodge if one sides dominates to much. Commanders of different servers already try to combat such situation via organizing fights in the EotM as to get in some good rounds of squad vs squad fights.

    I also look fondly back at my DAoC days. No, it's not simply a matter of nostalgia. The crowd control is what made DAoC's large scale RvR excel above every other MMORPG that has tried it. It single handedly was able to turn entire fights around when players used it effectively. When you didn't execute your crowd control effectively, you had to work much harder to win (especially against zergs).

    DAoC was the only large scale RvR game of its time. Let's not give credit where none is due.

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    Yes, people hate "losing character control." But, it's also a necessary combat feature of MMORPG combat in order for groups to reliably take down overwhelming odds of players. No MMORPG, and no MMORPG developer has successfully been able to recreate the excellence of DAoC RvR. The crowd control is exclusively one of the reasons why.

    Most haven't tried. I'd argue that Warhammer Online did, but was shut down due to high IP costs. DAoC only continues to exist because it costs nothing to keep those servers up.

    As far as necessary:
    As mentioned, there are groups of players who can easily kill enemy blobs 1v2 or 1v3. It's a matter of skill difference. My WvW guild reaches that critical mass around 25 players (which is rare for us, we are often sub 20, occasionally 20-25). We have very little issue with full zones unless the blob has a fight guild core or a mix of guild players supporting them. The same goes for other fight guilds and some of them are even stronger than us.

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    Does it have to be to the extent of DAoC? No, DAoC's crowd control was incredibly long per duration. Their Realm Rank system also helped alleviate that over time, by access to Determination which reduced CC timers, or Purge which removed Mezz/Stun on a timer. This was well-executed from the developer side and was a success per the results for the game in totality.

    Does it need to be a straight up copy of DAoC? No. But, the philosophy behind it is sound logic.

    Giving a smaller group the ability to win does not have to be done via crowd control. In fact in the past when necromancer shades had a higher target cap, it was even easier to fight against larger numbers. The only thing which is needed is the ability for the smaller group to reduce the effective size of the larger group. This can be done via cc or by just putting a majority of players into downstate, or via fast movement to dodge enemy damage.

    The only thing sound is that an ability to gap a numeric disadvantage is needed. Not that this must be achieved via crowd control. Crowd control is just the strait forward and easiest answer because it immediately reduces the effective size of the affected group.

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    There's a reason why tens of thousands of players across the MMORPG-Universe have consistently said a DAoC 2.0 is needed.

    There is a reason there hasn't been a DAoC 2.0 so far.

  • Haseno.6417Haseno.6417 Member ✭✭
    edited March 7, 2021

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Haseno.6417 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    People would even build 8-man groups dedicated to zergbusting. It was only possible because the game developers allowed classes to possess powerful crowd control. Whereas, most gamers today will cry foul when experiencing such powerful crowd control. Gamers and game developers are their own worst enemy in this regard.

    While I look very fondly back to my days with DAoC, probably more rose colored then I should, there are reasons balance has moved on from those days.

    First off, in your given scenario, how many players are having fun versus those getting "farmed"? That's a very tough balance to get right because no one likes to be a free loot pinata.

    Second, and this has been established over multiple MMORPGs, one of the main gripes players have, besides being stealth engaged, is loss of character control. The perception of not being able to have any hand in ones fate is very off-putting, no matter how high that chance might have actually been. Say you get jumped by 10 players, chances of escape are 0, if the player gets rooted, feared or stunned in place, the perception is again different than just getting run down. Even if the end result was predictable from the start.

    Finally, DAoC came out during a time when MMORPGs where in their baby shoes. The vast majority of players was incompetent, even more so than now. This was valid for all area of the game btw. Gaming has matured. There are guides, videos, exchange of knowledge on a constant basis. The reason those 8 man groups worked in DAoC was because they were a minority. An occasional blip of: "yeah, it's guild XYZ. They got us good". Distances and time to fight were far longer in DAoC than here. If implemented today in GW2, you would get a ton of guild groups roaming around (we already do have that and guilds destroying squads of players twice their group size) able to delete an entire map blob over and over. Net result: the other sides log off.

    For anyone who has never experienced this:
    It is not unusual, especially during reset time, that one or both weaker sides simply log off or just ppt and dodge if one sides dominates to much. Commanders of different servers already try to combat such situation via organizing fights in the EotM as to get in some good rounds of squad vs squad fights.

    I also look fondly back at my DAoC days. No, it's not simply a matter of nostalgia. The crowd control is what made DAoC's large scale RvR excel above every other MMORPG that has tried it. It single handedly was able to turn entire fights around when players used it effectively. When you didn't execute your crowd control effectively, you had to work much harder to win (especially against zergs).

    DAoC was the only large scale RvR game of its time. Let's not give credit where none is due.

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    Yes, people hate "losing character control." But, it's also a necessary combat feature of MMORPG combat in order for groups to reliably take down overwhelming odds of players. No MMORPG, and no MMORPG developer has successfully been able to recreate the excellence of DAoC RvR. The crowd control is exclusively one of the reasons why.

    Most haven't tried. I'd argue that Warhammer Online did, but was shut down due to high IP costs. DAoC only continues to exist because it costs nothing to keep those servers up.

    As far as necessary:
    As mentioned, there are groups of players who can easily kill enemy blobs 1v2 or 1v3. It's a matter of skill difference. My WvW guild reaches that critical mass around 25 players (which is rare for us, we are often sub 20, occasionally 20-25). We have very little issue with full zones unless the blob has a fight guild core or a mix of guild players supporting them. The same goes for other fight guilds and some of them are even stronger than us.

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    Does it have to be to the extent of DAoC? No, DAoC's crowd control was incredibly long per duration. Their Realm Rank system also helped alleviate that over time, by access to Determination which reduced CC timers, or Purge which removed Mezz/Stun on a timer. This was well-executed from the developer side and was a success per the results for the game in totality.

    Does it need to be a straight up copy of DAoC? No. But, the philosophy behind it is sound logic.

    Giving a smaller group the ability to win does not have to be done via crowd control. In fact in the past when necromancer shades had a higher target cap, it was even easier to fight against larger numbers. The only thing which is needed is the ability for the smaller group to reduce the effective size of the larger group. This can be done via cc or by just putting a majority of players into downstate, or via fast movement to dodge enemy damage.

    The only thing sound is that an ability to gap a numeric disadvantage is needed. Not that this must be achieved via crowd control.

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    There's a reason why tens of thousands of players across the MMORPG-Universe have consistently said a DAoC 2.0 is needed.

    There is a reason there hasn't been a DAoC 2.0 so far.

    1. While true DAoC was the only large-scale RvR game of its time. This does not discredit its success, nor the fact that for being the first of its kind, no MMORPG since then has been able to recreate large-scale PVP as memorable or as effective as DAoC. Not even Mythic Entertainment was able to recreate it with Warhammer Online. Warhammer Online failed for many reasons, and one of those was that the combat still didn't compare to DAoC RvR. There's a reason DAoC consistently won awards for "Best PVP" for nearly 2 decades after launch. That is not a sign of nostalgia, but rather, brilliant game design.

    2. Skill does matter still, even in GW2. Yes, a skilled team is still capable of winning with overwhelming odds. This is true in any MMORPG. But, as a general rule, this is not the case when encountering zergs/blobs in GW2, ESO, or numerous other mmorpgs whom have attempted to mimic large-scale RvR combat. The absence of crowd control is directly responsible for this.

    3. That is the only way to to gap a numeric disadvantage, without breaking other elements of the game. Theoretically your statement of it not required to be crowd control is true. It could be done in other ways, but not without incredible buffs to healing/support or incredible buffs to burst damage. Which would break the combat in other ways, and is far less preferable a route than added crowd control. Crowd Control is and always will remain to be the solution. Hence the name "Crowd Control." Zergs being a problem in a game? Then a lack of crowd control is the cause. As Brad McQuaid, the original designer of Everquest stated. The Holy Trinity of MMORPG game design was never actually a holy trinity. Crowd Control was always the 4th addition to the Holy Trinity. He criticized game development which excluded it for a reason.

    4. The reason there hasn't been a DAoC 2.0 is because nobody has been able to recapture the magic which made it capable of winning 15+ Greatest PVP MMORPG awards. Still, to this day, the greatest PVP-Centric MMORPG of all time. Game development with lackluster crowd control in PVP is one of many reasons why.

  • Haseno.6417Haseno.6417 Member ✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sansar.1302 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sansar.1302 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    So what you are saying is that 1 person multiboxing is the solution. Hm.

    There is an issue with that I cant quite put my finger on.

    That where an example on what a coordinated grp could do ( not many could do this as it took alot of skill to do as a multi boxer and bad enemies)

    The point here where that smaler grps had the tools to kill big grps if skilled and coordinated.

    Smaller groups already has the tools to do that in GW2. You want to know why it doesnt work in a similar fashion?

    Boons. Tons and tons of boons.

    We already saw what happened when this "fail" due to cc/stability redesign years back and lo and behold, zergs where locked down and the pirateship meta was born. And incidently, people hated it so much that Anet buffed stability through the roof and made zergs practically un-CCable. And people loved it.

    And well, rally doesnt help either.

    if it does not work then smaler grps dont have the "tools " to do it .
    it is pure logic .

    Have seen youre post for years and you seam to have a agenda of shuting down any changes to this game mode

    No I'm just here pointing out the obvious.

    There is tons of CC in GW2 for every class. They have the tools. The tools just doesnt work because of how zergs today have 5+ constant stab stacks.

    Remember when a single guard line could stop a zerg dead in its tracks? Pepperidge farm remembers.

    "Tons of CC" is not proof of the tools being in existence. Proper CC would be proof of it being in existence.

    So long as CC is a non-factor in dealing with large-scale zergs. Zergs will continue to be the bane to WvW.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2021

    @Haseno.6417 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Haseno.6417 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    People would even build 8-man groups dedicated to zergbusting. It was only possible because the game developers allowed classes to possess powerful crowd control. Whereas, most gamers today will cry foul when experiencing such powerful crowd control. Gamers and game developers are their own worst enemy in this regard.

    While I look very fondly back to my days with DAoC, probably more rose colored then I should, there are reasons balance has moved on from those days.

    First off, in your given scenario, how many players are having fun versus those getting "farmed"? That's a very tough balance to get right because no one likes to be a free loot pinata.

    Second, and this has been established over multiple MMORPGs, one of the main gripes players have, besides being stealth engaged, is loss of character control. The perception of not being able to have any hand in ones fate is very off-putting, no matter how high that chance might have actually been. Say you get jumped by 10 players, chances of escape are 0, if the player gets rooted, feared or stunned in place, the perception is again different than just getting run down. Even if the end result was predictable from the start.

    Finally, DAoC came out during a time when MMORPGs where in their baby shoes. The vast majority of players was incompetent, even more so than now. This was valid for all area of the game btw. Gaming has matured. There are guides, videos, exchange of knowledge on a constant basis. The reason those 8 man groups worked in DAoC was because they were a minority. An occasional blip of: "yeah, it's guild XYZ. They got us good". Distances and time to fight were far longer in DAoC than here. If implemented today in GW2, you would get a ton of guild groups roaming around (we already do have that and guilds destroying squads of players twice their group size) able to delete an entire map blob over and over. Net result: the other sides log off.

    For anyone who has never experienced this:
    It is not unusual, especially during reset time, that one or both weaker sides simply log off or just ppt and dodge if one sides dominates to much. Commanders of different servers already try to combat such situation via organizing fights in the EotM as to get in some good rounds of squad vs squad fights.

    I also look fondly back at my DAoC days. No, it's not simply a matter of nostalgia. The crowd control is what made DAoC's large scale RvR excel above every other MMORPG that has tried it. It single handedly was able to turn entire fights around when players used it effectively. When you didn't execute your crowd control effectively, you had to work much harder to win (especially against zergs).

    DAoC was the only large scale RvR game of its time. Let's not give credit where none is due.

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    Yes, people hate "losing character control." But, it's also a necessary combat feature of MMORPG combat in order for groups to reliably take down overwhelming odds of players. No MMORPG, and no MMORPG developer has successfully been able to recreate the excellence of DAoC RvR. The crowd control is exclusively one of the reasons why.

    Most haven't tried. I'd argue that Warhammer Online did, but was shut down due to high IP costs. DAoC only continues to exist because it costs nothing to keep those servers up.

    As far as necessary:
    As mentioned, there are groups of players who can easily kill enemy blobs 1v2 or 1v3. It's a matter of skill difference. My WvW guild reaches that critical mass around 25 players (which is rare for us, we are often sub 20, occasionally 20-25). We have very little issue with full zones unless the blob has a fight guild core or a mix of guild players supporting them. The same goes for other fight guilds and some of them are even stronger than us.

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    Does it have to be to the extent of DAoC? No, DAoC's crowd control was incredibly long per duration. Their Realm Rank system also helped alleviate that over time, by access to Determination which reduced CC timers, or Purge which removed Mezz/Stun on a timer. This was well-executed from the developer side and was a success per the results for the game in totality.

    Does it need to be a straight up copy of DAoC? No. But, the philosophy behind it is sound logic.

    Giving a smaller group the ability to win does not have to be done via crowd control. In fact in the past when necromancer shades had a higher target cap, it was even easier to fight against larger numbers. The only thing which is needed is the ability for the smaller group to reduce the effective size of the larger group. This can be done via cc or by just putting a majority of players into downstate, or via fast movement to dodge enemy damage.

    The only thing sound is that an ability to gap a numeric disadvantage is needed. Not that this must be achieved via crowd control.

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    There's a reason why tens of thousands of players across the MMORPG-Universe have consistently said a DAoC 2.0 is needed.

    There is a reason there hasn't been a DAoC 2.0 so far.

    1. While true DAoC was the only large-scale RvR game of its time. This does not discredit its success, nor the fact that for being the first of its kind, no MMORPG since then has been able to recreate large-scale PVP as memorable or as effective as DAoC. Not even Mythic Entertainment was able to recreate it with Warhammer Online. Warhammer Online failed for many reasons, and one of those was that the combat still didn't compare to DAoC RvR. There's a reason DAoC consistently won awards for "Best PVP" for nearly 2 decades after launch. That is not a sign of nostalgia, but rather, brilliant game design.

    We will have to disagree on this. I played up to rank 65 (when rank was capped at 80) and combat was NOT the main gripe people had with the game. It was probably one of its only redeeming features. That is subjective though and one can disagree.

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    2. Skill does matter still, even in GW2. Yes, a skilled team is still capable of winning with overwhelming odds. This is true in any MMORPG. But, as a general rule, this is not the case when encountering zergs/blobs in GW2, ESO, or numerous other mmorpgs whom have attempted to mimic large-scale RvR combat. The absence of crowd control is directly responsible for this.

    Sure it is the case. All the time. If players are skilled enough, they can win against an overwhelming numbers disadvantage. If not, well then they can't. I can't speak for ESO since I haven't played that game long or far enough.

    You suggestion does not change this. It merely reduces the required "skill" aspect down to 1 element: who gets his long time cc out first. That doesn't change player skill necessity for the entire group. It simply changes it for the select few players who have to cc.

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    3. That is the only way to to gap a numeric disadvantage, without breaking other elements of the game. Theoretically your statement of it not being crowd control is true. It could be done in other ways, but not without incredible buffs to healing/support or incredible buffs to burst damage. Which would break the combat in other ways, and is far less preferable a route than added crowd control. Crowd Control is and always will remain to be the solution.

    You have not supported this in any way. Again: one of the main grievances players have is with loss of control. You would have to make an argument that say more damage has more of a negative impact on the perception than loss of control. I'd even go so far: unbalancing the game in order to achieve this goal might still be more deisrable from a player enjoyment perspective than introducing long time crowd control.

    This is not about balance. If it was, there would be 0 possibility for certain numeric advantages to have remotely the ability to compete. If the entire skill and balance aspect is reduced to who presses his cc first, I'd say balance and skill requirements are out the window.

  • Haseno.6417Haseno.6417 Member ✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Haseno.6417 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Haseno.6417 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    People would even build 8-man groups dedicated to zergbusting. It was only possible because the game developers allowed classes to possess powerful crowd control. Whereas, most gamers today will cry foul when experiencing such powerful crowd control. Gamers and game developers are their own worst enemy in this regard.

    While I look very fondly back to my days with DAoC, probably more rose colored then I should, there are reasons balance has moved on from those days.

    First off, in your given scenario, how many players are having fun versus those getting "farmed"? That's a very tough balance to get right because no one likes to be a free loot pinata.

    Second, and this has been established over multiple MMORPGs, one of the main gripes players have, besides being stealth engaged, is loss of character control. The perception of not being able to have any hand in ones fate is very off-putting, no matter how high that chance might have actually been. Say you get jumped by 10 players, chances of escape are 0, if the player gets rooted, feared or stunned in place, the perception is again different than just getting run down. Even if the end result was predictable from the start.

    Finally, DAoC came out during a time when MMORPGs where in their baby shoes. The vast majority of players was incompetent, even more so than now. This was valid for all area of the game btw. Gaming has matured. There are guides, videos, exchange of knowledge on a constant basis. The reason those 8 man groups worked in DAoC was because they were a minority. An occasional blip of: "yeah, it's guild XYZ. They got us good". Distances and time to fight were far longer in DAoC than here. If implemented today in GW2, you would get a ton of guild groups roaming around (we already do have that and guilds destroying squads of players twice their group size) able to delete an entire map blob over and over. Net result: the other sides log off.

    For anyone who has never experienced this:
    It is not unusual, especially during reset time, that one or both weaker sides simply log off or just ppt and dodge if one sides dominates to much. Commanders of different servers already try to combat such situation via organizing fights in the EotM as to get in some good rounds of squad vs squad fights.

    I also look fondly back at my DAoC days. No, it's not simply a matter of nostalgia. The crowd control is what made DAoC's large scale RvR excel above every other MMORPG that has tried it. It single handedly was able to turn entire fights around when players used it effectively. When you didn't execute your crowd control effectively, you had to work much harder to win (especially against zergs).

    DAoC was the only large scale RvR game of its time. Let's not give credit where none is due.

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    Yes, people hate "losing character control." But, it's also a necessary combat feature of MMORPG combat in order for groups to reliably take down overwhelming odds of players. No MMORPG, and no MMORPG developer has successfully been able to recreate the excellence of DAoC RvR. The crowd control is exclusively one of the reasons why.

    Most haven't tried. I'd argue that Warhammer Online did, but was shut down due to high IP costs. DAoC only continues to exist because it costs nothing to keep those servers up.

    As far as necessary:
    As mentioned, there are groups of players who can easily kill enemy blobs 1v2 or 1v3. It's a matter of skill difference. My WvW guild reaches that critical mass around 25 players (which is rare for us, we are often sub 20, occasionally 20-25). We have very little issue with full zones unless the blob has a fight guild core or a mix of guild players supporting them. The same goes for other fight guilds and some of them are even stronger than us.

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    Does it have to be to the extent of DAoC? No, DAoC's crowd control was incredibly long per duration. Their Realm Rank system also helped alleviate that over time, by access to Determination which reduced CC timers, or Purge which removed Mezz/Stun on a timer. This was well-executed from the developer side and was a success per the results for the game in totality.

    Does it need to be a straight up copy of DAoC? No. But, the philosophy behind it is sound logic.

    Giving a smaller group the ability to win does not have to be done via crowd control. In fact in the past when necromancer shades had a higher target cap, it was even easier to fight against larger numbers. The only thing which is needed is the ability for the smaller group to reduce the effective size of the larger group. This can be done via cc or by just putting a majority of players into downstate, or via fast movement to dodge enemy damage.

    The only thing sound is that an ability to gap a numeric disadvantage is needed. Not that this must be achieved via crowd control.

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    There's a reason why tens of thousands of players across the MMORPG-Universe have consistently said a DAoC 2.0 is needed.

    There is a reason there hasn't been a DAoC 2.0 so far.

    1. While true DAoC was the only large-scale RvR game of its time. This does not discredit its success, nor the fact that for being the first of its kind, no MMORPG since then has been able to recreate large-scale PVP as memorable or as effective as DAoC. Not even Mythic Entertainment was able to recreate it with Warhammer Online. Warhammer Online failed for many reasons, and one of those was that the combat still didn't compare to DAoC RvR. There's a reason DAoC consistently won awards for "Best PVP" for nearly 2 decades after launch. That is not a sign of nostalgia, but rather, brilliant game design.

    We will have to disagree on this. I played up to rank 65 (when rank was capped at 80) and combat was NOT the main gripe people had with the game. It was probably one of its only redeeming features. That is subjective though and one can disagree.

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    2. Skill does matter still, even in GW2. Yes, a skilled team is still capable of winning with overwhelming odds. This is true in any MMORPG. But, as a general rule, this is not the case when encountering zergs/blobs in GW2, ESO, or numerous other mmorpgs whom have attempted to mimic large-scale RvR combat. The absence of crowd control is directly responsible for this.

    Sure it is the case. All the time. If players are skilled enough, they can win against an overwhelming numbers disadvantage. If not, well then they can't. I can't speak for ESO since I haven't played that game long or far enough.

    You suggestion does not change this. It merely reduces the required "skill" aspect down to 1 element: who gets his long time cc out first. That doesn't change player skill necessity for the entire group. It simply changes it for the select few players who have to cc.

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    3. That is the only way to to gap a numeric disadvantage, without breaking other elements of the game. Theoretically your statement of it not being crowd control is true. It could be done in other ways, but not without incredible buffs to healing/support or incredible buffs to burst damage. Which would break the combat in other ways, and is far less preferable a route than added crowd control. Crowd Control is and always will remain to be the solution.

    You have not supported this in any way. Again: one of the main grievances players have is with loss of control. You would have to make an argument that say more damage has more of a negative impact on the perception than loss of control. I'd even go so far: unbalancing the game in order to achieve this goal might still be more deisrable from a player enjoyment perspective than introducing long time crowd control.

    This is not about balance. If it was, there would be 0 possibility for certain numeric advantages to have remotely the ability to compete. If the entire skill and balance aspect is reduced to who presses his cc first, I'd say balance and skill requirements are out the window.

    1. I was rank 80 in Warhammer. I was Realm Rank 12 in DAoC. I have vast experience in both. Warhammer Online was subpar in comparison to DAoC when in regards to its PVP. By today's standards of MMORPG game design. Warhammer Online would be a blessing with what we have to play today. But, Warhammer was never the successor to DAoC. Mismanagement plagued Warhammer mostly, but combat still couldn't compare. Not to suggest that combat in Warhammer Online was bad, but, it just didn't have the same captivation that DAoC did. Per the results, many people left Warhammer and went back to DAoC. There is always some element of subjectivity, but, judging by the results of which game stayed relevant and maintained the winning of awards. I judge per the results.

    2. I have never denied skill being a factor. I've played GW2, ESO, DAoC, Warhammer, and every large-scale PVP combat I can think of in an MMORPG. Skill is a factor. But, proper and effective crowd control is still the built-in game mechanic necessary to counter large zergs. Large Zergs are Large Crowds, and the counter to large crowds is crowd control. I haven't shifted my position on that matter in years, and likely never will. I believe there should be built-in game mechanics necessary to counter zergs and I believe strong, proper, and effective crowd control has always been the built-in solution.

    3. It's supported by the history of MMORPG game design. Numerous games have made the mistake of over-buffing damage, or healing, to compensate for a lack of crowd control. Then it simply becomes a matter of a DPS race. Rather than a fight of warfare and counter-warfare. Crowd Control is a necessary evil in any MMORPG. Every MMORPG with PVP has crowd control. Every PVE-centric MMORPG still has crowd control. How it is implemented and designed to synergize with a game's combat matters greatly. The reason people have despised zerging/blobbing in GW2 since its creation is due to crowd control not having a good design. In-fact, healing and crowd control in GW2 are poorly designed around because it tried to avoid "roles" often ascribed to the holy trinity. Which of course, crowd control originally was part of the holy trinity itself.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Haseno.6417 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Haseno.6417 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Haseno.6417 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    People would even build 8-man groups dedicated to zergbusting. It was only possible because the game developers allowed classes to possess powerful crowd control. Whereas, most gamers today will cry foul when experiencing such powerful crowd control. Gamers and game developers are their own worst enemy in this regard.

    While I look very fondly back to my days with DAoC, probably more rose colored then I should, there are reasons balance has moved on from those days.

    First off, in your given scenario, how many players are having fun versus those getting "farmed"? That's a very tough balance to get right because no one likes to be a free loot pinata.

    Second, and this has been established over multiple MMORPGs, one of the main gripes players have, besides being stealth engaged, is loss of character control. The perception of not being able to have any hand in ones fate is very off-putting, no matter how high that chance might have actually been. Say you get jumped by 10 players, chances of escape are 0, if the player gets rooted, feared or stunned in place, the perception is again different than just getting run down. Even if the end result was predictable from the start.

    Finally, DAoC came out during a time when MMORPGs where in their baby shoes. The vast majority of players was incompetent, even more so than now. This was valid for all area of the game btw. Gaming has matured. There are guides, videos, exchange of knowledge on a constant basis. The reason those 8 man groups worked in DAoC was because they were a minority. An occasional blip of: "yeah, it's guild XYZ. They got us good". Distances and time to fight were far longer in DAoC than here. If implemented today in GW2, you would get a ton of guild groups roaming around (we already do have that and guilds destroying squads of players twice their group size) able to delete an entire map blob over and over. Net result: the other sides log off.

    For anyone who has never experienced this:
    It is not unusual, especially during reset time, that one or both weaker sides simply log off or just ppt and dodge if one sides dominates to much. Commanders of different servers already try to combat such situation via organizing fights in the EotM as to get in some good rounds of squad vs squad fights.

    I also look fondly back at my DAoC days. No, it's not simply a matter of nostalgia. The crowd control is what made DAoC's large scale RvR excel above every other MMORPG that has tried it. It single handedly was able to turn entire fights around when players used it effectively. When you didn't execute your crowd control effectively, you had to work much harder to win (especially against zergs).

    DAoC was the only large scale RvR game of its time. Let's not give credit where none is due.

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    Yes, people hate "losing character control." But, it's also a necessary combat feature of MMORPG combat in order for groups to reliably take down overwhelming odds of players. No MMORPG, and no MMORPG developer has successfully been able to recreate the excellence of DAoC RvR. The crowd control is exclusively one of the reasons why.

    Most haven't tried. I'd argue that Warhammer Online did, but was shut down due to high IP costs. DAoC only continues to exist because it costs nothing to keep those servers up.

    As far as necessary:
    As mentioned, there are groups of players who can easily kill enemy blobs 1v2 or 1v3. It's a matter of skill difference. My WvW guild reaches that critical mass around 25 players (which is rare for us, we are often sub 20, occasionally 20-25). We have very little issue with full zones unless the blob has a fight guild core or a mix of guild players supporting them. The same goes for other fight guilds and some of them are even stronger than us.

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    Does it have to be to the extent of DAoC? No, DAoC's crowd control was incredibly long per duration. Their Realm Rank system also helped alleviate that over time, by access to Determination which reduced CC timers, or Purge which removed Mezz/Stun on a timer. This was well-executed from the developer side and was a success per the results for the game in totality.

    Does it need to be a straight up copy of DAoC? No. But, the philosophy behind it is sound logic.

    Giving a smaller group the ability to win does not have to be done via crowd control. In fact in the past when necromancer shades had a higher target cap, it was even easier to fight against larger numbers. The only thing which is needed is the ability for the smaller group to reduce the effective size of the larger group. This can be done via cc or by just putting a majority of players into downstate, or via fast movement to dodge enemy damage.

    The only thing sound is that an ability to gap a numeric disadvantage is needed. Not that this must be achieved via crowd control.

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    There's a reason why tens of thousands of players across the MMORPG-Universe have consistently said a DAoC 2.0 is needed.

    There is a reason there hasn't been a DAoC 2.0 so far.

    1. While true DAoC was the only large-scale RvR game of its time. This does not discredit its success, nor the fact that for being the first of its kind, no MMORPG since then has been able to recreate large-scale PVP as memorable or as effective as DAoC. Not even Mythic Entertainment was able to recreate it with Warhammer Online. Warhammer Online failed for many reasons, and one of those was that the combat still didn't compare to DAoC RvR. There's a reason DAoC consistently won awards for "Best PVP" for nearly 2 decades after launch. That is not a sign of nostalgia, but rather, brilliant game design.

    We will have to disagree on this. I played up to rank 65 (when rank was capped at 80) and combat was NOT the main gripe people had with the game. It was probably one of its only redeeming features. That is subjective though and one can disagree.

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    2. Skill does matter still, even in GW2. Yes, a skilled team is still capable of winning with overwhelming odds. This is true in any MMORPG. But, as a general rule, this is not the case when encountering zergs/blobs in GW2, ESO, or numerous other mmorpgs whom have attempted to mimic large-scale RvR combat. The absence of crowd control is directly responsible for this.

    Sure it is the case. All the time. If players are skilled enough, they can win against an overwhelming numbers disadvantage. If not, well then they can't. I can't speak for ESO since I haven't played that game long or far enough.

    You suggestion does not change this. It merely reduces the required "skill" aspect down to 1 element: who gets his long time cc out first. That doesn't change player skill necessity for the entire group. It simply changes it for the select few players who have to cc.

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    3. That is the only way to to gap a numeric disadvantage, without breaking other elements of the game. Theoretically your statement of it not being crowd control is true. It could be done in other ways, but not without incredible buffs to healing/support or incredible buffs to burst damage. Which would break the combat in other ways, and is far less preferable a route than added crowd control. Crowd Control is and always will remain to be the solution.

    You have not supported this in any way. Again: one of the main grievances players have is with loss of control. You would have to make an argument that say more damage has more of a negative impact on the perception than loss of control. I'd even go so far: unbalancing the game in order to achieve this goal might still be more deisrable from a player enjoyment perspective than introducing long time crowd control.

    This is not about balance. If it was, there would be 0 possibility for certain numeric advantages to have remotely the ability to compete. If the entire skill and balance aspect is reduced to who presses his cc first, I'd say balance and skill requirements are out the window.

    1. I was rank 80 in Warhammer. I was Realm Rank 12 in DAoC. I have vast experience in both. Warhammer Online was subpar in comparison to DAoC when in regards to its PVP. By today's standards of MMORPG game design. Warhammer Online would be a blessing with what we have to play today. But, Warhammer was never the successor to DAoC. Mismanagement plagued Warhammer mostly, but combat still couldn't compare. Not to suggest that combat in Warhammer Online was bad, but, it just didn't have the same captivation that DAoC did. Per the results, many people left Warhammer and went back to DAoC. There is always some element of subjectivity, but, judging by the results of which game stayed relevant and maintained the winning of awards. I judge per the results.

    2. I have never denied skill being a factor. I've played GW2, ESO, DAoC, Warhammer, and every large-scale PVP combat I can think of in an MMORPG. Skill is a factor. But, proper and effective crowd control is still the built-in game mechanic necessary to counter large zergs. Large Zergs are Large Crowds, and the counter to large crowds is crowd control. I haven't shifted my position on that matter in years, and likely never will. I believe there should be built-in game mechanics necessary to counter zergs and I believe strong, proper, and effective crowd control has always been the built-in solution.

    3. It's supported by the history of MMORPG game design. Numerous games have made the mistake of over-buffing damage, or healing, to compensate for a lack of crowd control. Then it simply becomes a matter of a DPS race. Rather than a fight of warfare and counter-warfare. Crowd Control is a necessary evil in any MMORPG. Every MMORPG with PVP has crowd control. Every PVE-centric MMORPG still has crowd control. How it is implemented and designed to synergize with a game's combat matters greatly. The reason people have despised zerging/blobbing in GW2 since its creation is due to crowd control not having a good design. In-fact, healing and crowd control in GW2 are poorly designed around because it tried to avoid "roles" often ascribed to the holy trinity. Which of course, crowd control originally was part of the holy trinity itself.

    We obviously have differing opinions on this issue.

    It might be true, maybe all MMORPGs which have approach large scale fights, and that in its self is a niche, have been wrong about phasing out large scale and long term crowd control.

    Maybe though the landscape and gamers have changed and what you are desiring has and always will remain a niche within a niche. Hard to tell, given no developer wants to risk giving this a try.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So turning the enemy into target dummies is suppose to save wvw?

    Gw2 already has a ton of hard and soft cc's in the game, cripple, chilled, fear, slow, knockdown, knockback, daze, sink, pull, stun, float, launch. It's the matter of stability that nullifies most of them, and it's the one thing that usually separates the difference between pug zerg and an organized one, as pug zergs usually have less stability and thus already suffer the effects of hard cc's which are part of organized gravity or pull bombs. Go ahead and ask your local fight guild how they would feel about stability being nerfed to get to the stun paradise.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • Junkpile.7439Junkpile.7439 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2021

    To be fair does this game even have guilds or groups that have some real tactics and skill to execute them? Seems like pinnacle of wvw gameplay is to have mesmer pulls and some support in groups.

    Low quality trolling since launch
    Seafarer's Rest EotM Hero

  • Paradoxoglanis.1904Paradoxoglanis.1904 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    I haven't played the game in a while. I'm reinstalling as I speak as I type this. I've been MMORPG homeless for a while. I always eventually come back to games to check out the state of the game. I check out the forums to get a general comprehension of the state of the game as well.

    The issues in WvW, are not exclusive to games like GW2. Most MMORPG's fail to address the issues in their large scale PVP combat. ESO is an example, GW2 is also an example.

    While there is niche issues such as siege issues or general profession/class issues. Most people will complain about combat itself in large scale-combat. The #1 complaint always ends up being zergs, or in GW2, they're referred to as blobs.

    Blobs/zergs are annoying, and reward zero skill-gameplay. They crush smaller groups, solo players, and overwhelm in siege warfare.

    The same thing always happens in these MMORPG's. And you want to know why? Game Developers are too afraid to allow players to have powerful Crowd Control. That is the key to defeating zergs/blobs. In past games like Dark Age of Camelot, which is historic for its large-scale PVP/RVR gameplay, and has received more awards for their RVR than many present MMORPG's. Players in that game could be a smaller group and overwhelm zergs. People would even build 8-man groups dedicated to zergbusting. It was only possible because the game developers allowed classes to possess powerful crowd control. Whereas, most gamers today will cry foul when experiencing such powerful crowd control. Gamers and game developers are their own worst enemy in this regard. "Balance" is a relative term in gaming. One player may look at such powerful crowd control as game breaking. But, as part of that double-edged sword. That powerful crowd control is a necessary tool to allow one dynamic of combat to be put in check. Specifically, that dynamic being zergs/blobs. Smaller groups having the means to overcome overwhelming odds is balance in large-scale PVP/RVR/WVW. In DAoC, those smaller groups had to get the element of surprise or be fortunate enough to get their crowd control off first in order to overcome a zerg. But, because it was possible, it allowed such balance to occur. Zergs could still wipe out smaller groups. But, smaller groups had the means to fight back. You lack that in GW2, ESO, and many more MMORPGS. As a result, who brings overwhelming numbers is generally the winner and it becomes a DPS race to zero rather than a fight of skill, tactics, playstyle, or group composition.

    They run afoul because you lack the crowd control as a means of counter-warfare. In DAoC, a pac healer would drop an AOE Mezz on a zerg, then an AoE stun. Then the casters would PBAOE the zergs down. You can watch oldschool DAoC videos of groups like FUN II beating entire zergs as an 8-man team. You can watch famous DAoC groups like Team-Wizzy, who was literally 1 guy boxing multiple accounts with PBAOE Ice Wizards and 2 additional players to heal and provide minstrel speed. They would down entire zergs, and crowd control was the key to doing so. It obviously had to be executed correctly, but, it was the pinnacle of large-scale RVR balance. WvW/RvR should not be a battle of "the most numbers wins." Smaller groups should be provided the toolkit necessary to overcome the odds. WvW will not be fixed until THAT is a reality.

    Good luck doing that in GW2 and most modern mmorpg's. You aren't given the toolkit to make that a reality. And yet, DAoC had the best large-scale PVP combat of all time and won the most awards consistently for nearly 2 decades to prove it.

    Remove target cap. Now small organized squads >> big slow blobs. There is enough cc in the game already, the reason blobs seem immune is the target cap.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2021

    @Haseno.6417

    “Blobs/zergs are annoying, and reward zero skill-gameplay. They crush smaller groups, solo players, and overwhelm in siege warfare”

    Welcome to wvw, a mode created primarily for large scale fights! But if you don’t like large scale fights and blobs running around, then Anet did make some accommodations for you by offering small scale spvp. It’s called Heart of the Mists...

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heart_of_the_Mists

    Enjoy!

    P.S.,

    “Game Developers are too afraid to allow players to have powerful Crowd Control. That is the key to defeating zergs/blobs.”

    No, that’s called balance. Maybe you personally would like your character to CC a group of 50, and consider that skill because some devs in other games coded CC skills to affect 50 players, but that’s not really a measure a player’s skill, nor would it be healthy gameplay if players were individually given such skills to lob around...

    But if you really want to have skills that can CC 50 people with a press of a button, I want things like a Deadeye Sniper skill that shoots 10,000 feet and can 1 shot up to 10 people at a time. And an Engineer grenade launcher that can blow up 25 at a time, along with an IED skill that blows up 50 at a time. And I want my Mesmer to be able to summon an illusion army of 50, because nothing would be more enjoyable than having 50 illusions to Shatter upon my enemies... What do you think?

  • UmbraNoctis.1907UmbraNoctis.1907 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2021

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    I haven't played the game in a while. I'm reinstalling as I speak as I type this. I've been MMORPG homeless for a while. I always eventually come back to games to check out the state of the game. I check out the forums to get a general comprehension of the state of the game as well.

    The issues in WvW, are not exclusive to games like GW2. Most MMORPG's fail to address the issues in their large scale PVP combat. ESO is an example, GW2 is also an example.

    While there is niche issues such as siege issues or general profession/class issues. Most people will complain about combat itself in large scale-combat. The #1 complaint always ends up being zergs, or in GW2, they're referred to as blobs.

    Blobs/zergs are annoying, and reward zero skill-gameplay. They crush smaller groups, solo players, and overwhelm in siege warfare.

    The same thing always happens in these MMORPG's. And you want to know why? Game Developers are too afraid to allow players to have powerful Crowd Control. That is the key to defeating zergs/blobs. In past games like Dark Age of Camelot, which is historic for its large-scale PVP/RVR gameplay, and has received more awards for their RVR than many present MMORPG's. Players in that game could be a smaller group and overwhelm zergs. People would even build 8-man groups dedicated to zergbusting. It was only possible because the game developers allowed classes to possess powerful crowd control. Whereas, most gamers today will cry foul when experiencing such powerful crowd control. Gamers and game developers are their own worst enemy in this regard. "Balance" is a relative term in gaming. One player may look at such powerful crowd control as game breaking. But, as part of that double-edged sword. That powerful crowd control is a necessary tool to allow one dynamic of combat to be put in check. Specifically, that dynamic being zergs/blobs. Smaller groups having the means to overcome overwhelming odds is balance in large-scale PVP/RVR/WVW. In DAoC, those smaller groups had to get the element of surprise or be fortunate enough to get their crowd control off first in order to overcome a zerg. But, because it was possible, it allowed such balance to occur. Zergs could still wipe out smaller groups. But, smaller groups had the means to fight back. You lack that in GW2, ESO, and many more MMORPGS. As a result, who brings overwhelming numbers is generally the winner and it becomes a DPS race to zero rather than a fight of skill, tactics, playstyle, or group composition.

    They run afoul because you lack the crowd control as a means of counter-warfare. In DAoC, a pac healer would drop an AOE Mezz on a zerg, then an AoE stun. Then the casters would PBAOE the zergs down. You can watch oldschool DAoC videos of groups like FUN II beating entire zergs as an 8-man team. You can watch famous DAoC groups like Team-Wizzy, who was literally 1 guy boxing multiple accounts with PBAOE Ice Wizards and 2 additional players to heal and provide minstrel speed. They would down entire zergs, and crowd control was the key to doing so. It obviously had to be executed correctly, but, it was the pinnacle of large-scale RVR balance. WvW/RvR should not be a battle of "the most numbers wins." Smaller groups should be provided the toolkit necessary to overcome the odds. WvW will not be fixed until THAT is a reality.

    Good luck doing that in GW2 and most modern mmorpg's. You aren't given the toolkit to make that a reality. And yet, DAoC had the best large-scale PVP combat of all time and won the most awards consistently for nearly 2 decades to prove it.

    Remove target cap. Now small organized squads >> big slow blobs. There is enough cc in the game already, the reason blobs seem immune is the target cap.

    This. And downstate too. Those two things are the main problems when heavily outnumbered. As if the innate advantages of having more players weren't enough ...
    Tho removing aoe caps might hurt performance too much, so i guess there is no easy solution.

    (ironically in ESO it is mainly the terrible performance that's the issue, but generally it is possible for small organized grps to beat much larger zergs in that game, since aoe dmg is uncapped there)

  • Lord Trejgon.2809Lord Trejgon.2809 Member ✭✭✭

    My question to OP is:
    And what do you think would stop big blobs from using that strong and potent CC against smaller groups?

    As for the target cap: there wasn't one during launch days. And they were introduced for one single reason: servers were unable to keep up with amount of interactions that happened. There were huge skilllags in pretty much every major engagement. Reducing amount of interactions by introducing target caps for skills was the solution to that problem.

  • Famine.7915Famine.7915 Member ✭✭

    They keep nerfing damage and now boons and support is near unstoppable. Firebrands are majority in many untouchable blobs and DH's are even taking over zerg dps since necromancers as a viable option to counter boon output have been nerfed so much. The last big patch that cut damage didn't even touch support, only amplifying the primary issue. Just my thoughts... :/

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2021

    People used to be able to overwhelm a 40 - 50 blob with a proper 15man guild raid. Too much has changed since then ( think it happend after Hot and only got worse with Pof and the recent sustain/cc changes ),mainly..too much sustain/shares.

  • Haseno.6417Haseno.6417 Member ✭✭
    edited March 8, 2021

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @Haseno.6417

    “Blobs/zergs are annoying, and reward zero skill-gameplay. They crush smaller groups, solo players, and overwhelm in siege warfare”

    Welcome to wvw, a mode created primarily for large scale fights! But if you don’t like large scale fights and blobs running around, then Anet did make some accommodations for you by offering small scale spvp. It’s called Heart of the Mists...

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heart_of_the_Mists

    Enjoy!

    P.S.,

    “Game Developers are too afraid to allow players to have powerful Crowd Control. That is the key to defeating zergs/blobs.”

    No, that’s called balance. Maybe you personally would like your character to CC a group of 50, and consider that skill because some devs in other games coded CC skills to affect 50 players, but that’s not really a measure a player’s skill, nor would it be healthy gameplay if players were individually given such skills to lob around...

    But if you really want to have skills that can CC 50 people with a press of a button, I want things like a Deadeye Sniper skill that shoots 10,000 feet and can 1 shot up to 10 people at a time. And an Engineer grenade launcher that can blow up 25 at a time, along with an IED skill that blows up 50 at a time. And I want my Mesmer to be able to summon an illusion army of 50, because nothing would be more enjoyable than having 50 illusions to Shatter upon my enemies... What do you think?

    1. I don't mind large scale fights. I do mind game content being reduced to "most population wins." The purpose of my post is to point this out, and to suggest a solution, by giving players tools to overcome zergs and blobs. Balance is achieved when strength in numbers is not the defining characteristic to the vast majority of victorious fights.

    2. Small Scale/Arena/sPVP is boring. I'm an oldschool DAoC player for a reason. I know what good pvp is, and isn't.

    3. You wouldn't have any comprehension of what balance is. Don't try to frame the goalposts of the debate. You won't win a debate against someone like me by doing so.

    4. I take your dismissive attitude, and shove it, where it belongs. I'm going to insist crowd control is stronger in this game, and every MMORPG with WvW/RvR/Large-Scale Combat. Technically strength isn't even the correct word for it. A better word is "effective" CC. The game can have numerous snares, stuns, and more. But, this does not mean the CC is designed in a manner to act as a counter to busting zergs. The current CC in the game clearly does not act as a counter to zergs and blobs.

    5. I did not state an opinion by suggesting crowd control must be better implemented to counter zergs in GW2's WvW. That is a cold-hard fact. That is the purpose, and the very logic, behind crowd control. To control a crowd, in order to reduce a threat and turn the tides of a fight. GW2 is plagued by zerg/blob playstyles, and has been a consistent burden and bane to the success of WvW for GW2. The game lacks proper CC to reliably and efficiently counter that playstyle, which is a fact. By definition, the absence of balance. Balance is a relative term. Ensuring tools exist to counter abilities is one thing, but one aspect to balance is that counters must exist to counter entire playstyles. Because if a playstyle does not have a counter, then it is by definition, not balanced.

    Do you folks honestly think I would bother wasting my time making this thread If I didn't know what I'm talking about?

  • Haseno.6417Haseno.6417 Member ✭✭

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:
    My question to OP is:
    And what do you think would stop big blobs from using that strong and potent CC against smaller groups?

    As for the target cap: there wasn't one during launch days. And they were introduced for one single reason: servers were unable to keep up with amount of interactions that happened. There were huge skilllags in pretty much every major engagement. Reducing amount of interactions by introducing target caps for skills was the solution to that problem.

    You don't take away peoples weapons in the real world to prevent harm by bad people. You don't take away peoples counter to zergs in MMORPG's due to the risk of zergs using the same weapons.

    Your argument translated is "we can't allow such abilities in the game because the zergs might use it against others. Even though allowing it in the game would give people greater success in countering zergs."

  • Haseno.6417Haseno.6417 Member ✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    So turning the enemy into target dummies is suppose to save wvw?

    Gw2 already has a ton of hard and soft cc's in the game, cripple, chilled, fear, slow, knockdown, knockback, daze, sink, pull, stun, float, launch. It's the matter of stability that nullifies most of them, and it's the one thing that usually separates the difference between pug zerg and an organized one, as pug zergs usually have less stability and thus already suffer the effects of hard cc's which are part of organized gravity or pull bombs. Go ahead and ask your local fight guild how they would feel about stability being nerfed to get to the stun paradise.

    I don't care about the opinions of any "local fight guild" and their path of least resistance.

    I only care about combat being designed in a manner in which there's a fairly effective counter to zerging/blobbing. As I don't believe certain playstyles and methodologies should be absent of a counter. Because that would be broken game design.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2021

    @Haseno.6417

    If you think profession balance is the devs coding skills so 8 people can mow down a zerg of 50+ is possible, then I don’t think you know what healthy gameplay is.

    But, let’s say, you get your 50+ person CCs, what professions get those CCs? What do you compensate the professions that don’t get 50+ person CC skills? Are all support professions given 50+ person cleanse skills? Are all offensive AoE skills now 50+ target? Are all team heals skills now 50+ target?... I mean, if balance is that much of a concern, surely you can’t just be suggesting the devs introduce a select few 50+ target CC skills on a select few professions without putting counters in place for balance.

    On the topic of skill... Do you honestly think the devs coding in a few 50+ target CC abilities, on select professions, for a player to use at the press of a button translates to superior player skill?

    I’ll answer the above, no, that’s not skill. That’s pressing a button. What is skill is a group of players who fights outnumbered and uses superior tactics to win. That’s skill. But that also takes effort. And it doesn’t seem you want to invest in the effort portion of skillful play, you just the devs to provide a few massive CC buttons to press.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2021

    @Haseno.6417

    “I only care about combat being designed in a manner in which there's a fairly effective counter to zerging/blobbing. As I don't believe certain playstyles and methodologies should be absent of a counter. Because that would be broken game design.”

    Your only concern is taking an 8 person group and beating up a zerg with a few button presses... That’s the definition of skill-less gameplay and broken game design, but you’re trying to paint it as some sort of skillful counter and healthy game balance.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Haseno.6417

    “Your argument translated is "we can't allow such abilities in the game because the zergs might use it against others. Even though allowing it in the game would give people greater success in countering zergs."

    What methods are currently available to you to gain “greater success in countering zergs”?

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    People used to be able to overwhelm a 40 - 50 blob with a proper 15man guild raid. Too much has changed since then ( think it happend after Hot and only got worse with Pof and the recent sustain/cc changes ),mainly..too much sustain/shares.

    Well the same 15 mans that used to wreck face are now 15 out of the 50 man so the comparison isnt all about just changes...

    But yes that was my point too which the OP shot down as "having an agenda". Ever since HoT passive sustain has gone through the roof.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    I don't care about the opinions of any "local fight guild" and their path of least resistance.

    I only care about combat being designed in a manner in which there's a fairly effective counter to zerging/blobbing. As I don't believe certain playstyles and methodologies should be absent of a counter. Because that would be broken game design.

    So taking 8 people to stunlock 40 people to death is not broken game design?
    I'm all for counter game play as well, but that means punishing players for not doing the appropriate move at the right time, not just locking down until they're dead, also having access to actually counter. Heck I even remember the time thief venom sharing was helping lock down groups with aoe bombs, it was pretty nasty, and I believe most people hated it.

    The problem with this game is since the first expansion there's been too much passive and personal defenses added to the game. While before that you had to rely on actual team work of setting down the right fields and blasting for effect, they changed it to be more about boons/corruption spam game play, this has led to just carry more support to cover the holes in healing stability and boon spamming, while traits like purity of purpose took it over the top in recycling boons.

    So what exactly do you want them to do with current gw2 combat?
    Increase hard cc's durations?
    Add more aoe cc's?
    Nerf stun breakers?
    Nerf stability?
    Nerf cleansing?

    Like I stated there's plenty of soft and hard cc's in the game already, it's just a matter of overabundance of cleansing and stability in zerg groups that nullifies it for the most part.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • Lord Trejgon.2809Lord Trejgon.2809 Member ✭✭✭

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    You don't take away peoples weapons in the real world to prevent harm by bad people. You don't take away peoples counter to zergs in MMORPG's due to the risk of zergs using the same weapons.

    Your argument translated is "we can't allow such abilities in the game because the zergs might use it against others. Even though allowing it in the game would give people greater success in countering zergs."

    Ok so here is a newsflash for you. Your "solution" to countering zergs by giving us mass CC, will not work, because zergs will use those exact mass CC against those smaller groups, rendering them again unable to do anything.

    My argument isn't that we can't allow such abilities because the zergs would use it against each other, my argument is your solution will not work because zergs will be using those against smaller groups. You want to give small groups the tool to deal with zergs, while at the same time giving those zergs even stronger tool to obliterate those smaller groups.

    As it was already mentioned in the thread, the only way to force the stack-on-the-tag to spread would be uncapping targets on skills, but as it was pre-established the servers are unable to take it. Not sure if it would be possible to optimize/dumb down core fight mechanics to allow capless abilities without killing servers, but definitelly if it was possible, the cost of such changes (even just in dev-time) would be too high for AN to go for it.

    So you can do what everyone else in WvW is doing - accept the fact that major part of the WvW battlegrounds is presence of blob, adapt to it, or keep dying.

  • hobotnicax.7918hobotnicax.7918 Member ✭✭✭

    I sort of agree that more CC would be good for WvW.
    But I think that implementing some additional nerfs to boon generation (specially sharing boons) and healing output would go a long way to combat the mess that WvW is in right now. Furthermore the projectile hate must be toned down, so ranged spike damage becomes an option. This was already discussed many times with solutions offered (reflect number limit).
    WvW also needs to address the dependancy on FBs and Engies for group support. They have been out of control for too long now. The days of field blasting were much better, required more skills and coordination and didn't make boon generation so easy. Atm, some skills do too many things at once (damage, grant boons, output condi... add a trait in there and gg).
    The times where you really had to do a nice restack/empower + blast before a push were fun. Now it's only down to blasting stealth and gg - people get most of their boons in the fight. Absolutely not fun. Some call it meta, that is evolving through "balance" changes. Fine. But know that it's killing the game mode.

  • Yoci.2481Yoci.2481 Member ✭✭✭

    The combat systems are far to different to compare. For example DAoC has a very punishing interrupt system, where everything interrupts a spell caster. Even attacks that don't hit will interrupt. At the same time free casting spell casters can turn dozens of people into ashes within seconds. In GW2 pretty much only hard cc will interrupt.
    Another difference is that DAoC heavily punishes people for clumping up. The main reason for that is that AoE damage doesn't have a target cap and healing and support skills are typically group based and not area based. This is of course completely different from GW2 where AoE attacks do have target caps and heals and support abilities are typical based on an area around the caster or a specific location, which actually encourages people to clump up.
    The third big difference I see is that DAoC skills typically have no cooldown (and no global cooldown) and can be spammed at long as there is enough endurance or mana, and at a high level and with support there is an almost infinite amount of both.
    So DAoC combat revolves more around positioning and interrupts and not so much around cooldown and resource management.

  • CC is always a slippery slope. Binding Roots isn't fun for anyone, except Rangers. Knockdowns, Knockbacks, Static Fields all seems like they are OK, and would be OK with less Stability. As some have said, nobody likes losing control over their character. If it's brief, its alright, if its chain after chain after chain, its frustrating.

    With regards to buffs and boons, when you killed the Buffer in DAoC, your team lost the boons the Buffer provided. I played a Shaman, and was target #1 most fights due to this feature.

    I have always thought GW2 boons were a nice feature, but they are much too easily provided, and provided by everyone. It's much too late to go through with this kind of change, but I would be love to have boons provided exclusively by certain classes as a class mechanic or just by picking, say, a Heavy Armor profession, unlocks the ability to give Stability or Protection. Herald buffs are already working close to the DAoC Shaman. Kill the Herald, buffs go down (as the buffs expire)

    As there are 12 boons total, and 9 classes and 3 Archetypes to spread them out to, it shouldn't be that difficult to actually balance compared to the current status. Some of the less desirable classes may actually be wanted if they were the only ones to provide, fury, or might, for instance. Although, looking at how gamers think, and how min/maxing works, the classes with the least desirable buffs will still be left out. Alacrity Renegades are a good example. Great buff, but not enough to make it META. Would you still want a heal Scrapper if Purity of Purpose didn't provide all the boon conversion, just from a stealth/heal/cleanse perspective? Probably. Would you still want a Guardian if it didn't provide anything other than Stability? Yes, history proved it before Firebrand. Would the class matter if they were the only ones to give Might or Protection? Lots of good questions.

    Unlikely to happen, but a fun alt-history conversation.

  • Junkpile.7439Junkpile.7439 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2021

    Feels like people think that in bigger zerg you shouldn't get punished when playing badly. If couple eles wipe 50 players who can't dodge meteor shower they will adapt or continue feed.

    Low quality trolling since launch
    Seafarer's Rest EotM Hero

  • Tiawal.2351Tiawal.2351 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2021

    This engine can't do proper large scale PvP. Would work up to about 20 vs. 20 without target cap. Maybe bit more. So a new engine is needed, a new game. There is one in works, but still years away.

    What GW2 could do here and now:
    1. Reduce boon duration to pre-HoT levels, even more in some cases. Make boons a precious resource, that needs timed properly. Reward thinking.
    2. If boons are reduced, adjust damage vs. health and defense (likely some stats must be removed from WvW, like Minstrel & Trailblazer), so the time to live allows a fight to last at least a few seconds (no instakills, if needed add ~3s invulnerability, after more than 50% total health lost in under 1 second).
    3. Change skills so matters which skills are used first, and which one follows it, similar to the combo system: field first, blasting after; but there could be more systems than just the combo. Reward intelligent play, by giving a properly executed combination a better result, while making random key pressing having reduced output. Still, allow multiple valid combinations, while also keeping them limited.
    4. Replace most AoE with a cone that needs facing the targets.
    5. Rework the way stealth works: always allow counterplay to everything. Remove stealth automatically when an attacking skill is started.
    6. Remove buffs given by claimed objectives. Or limit them to a small area around the Lords.
    7. Have people who understand mass-PvP in the dev team, and adjust new expansion properly to fit WvW.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tiawal.2351 said:

    ~snip~

    So a new engine is needed, a new game. There is one in works, but still years away.

    Source?

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

    Remove target cap. Now small organized squads >> big slow blobs. There is enough cc in the game already, the reason blobs seem immune is the target cap.

    Granted, the engine has to handle it, and that shouldn't be a restriction to game play as a counter argument either way.

    The other counter to zergs is collison. Larger zergs didn't mean you could get on target with more. Combine that with target cap removal and now there are two prices to pay for getting too many people in the same spot and there is no more run away back thru your side when you are low, you die and zerg play is countered as the next body steps up to the meat grinder. Zerg till has advantage but it's more reduced. Smaller group will still take more hits but has better options to hold a line while they can.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
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  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Tbf blob busting and removing target caps is far from desirable balance as there would always be someone on the receiving end of it. Maybe if it was a PvE gamemode.

    You can just reduce the size of blobs by changing amount of maps and mapcaps.

    Biggest issue in GW2 is how objectives turned from the best place to have fights and action into a graveyard with introduction of claim buff, gliding and all the other defensive giggles.

    It isn't even about catering to the casual PvE audience atm, the state of the gamemode causes misery for everyone: Guilds don't want to EVER go open, commanders don't want to tag up, small groups are purely PvP oriented, casual activity to just take some objectives 4fun is just feeding enemy, commanding requires too much choosing the perfect spot so enemy doesn't have too many advantages, the relinking system is just flawed by design.

    Ri Ba - Charr of logic
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    ~Key to fixing WvW with minimal effort resides in my post history~

  • nthmetal.9652nthmetal.9652 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 19, 2021

    The same thing always happens in these MMORPG's. And you want to know why? Game Developers are too afraid to allow players to have powerful Crowd Control.

    And for good reason: No one loves not being able to do much. If you have ever seen a zerg vs zerg contact, where the groups are unevenly composed, you can already see that. On first contact with the enemy, you can't do much anymore. Not dodge away (because you need more than one dodge, and before you get the second one off, you are CC'd - and stunbreaking will just make you CC'd right away again). Not get any skill off. Nothing. You just stand there and die, and that, honestly, is seriously unfun.

    Combine that with stealth assaults you can't see coming, due to the nature of stealth vs the nature of reveals? Yeah, I can clearly see how more CC would help the game.

    IMO that's not the way to deal with things and have a happy player community. While it surely would achieve the goal of allowing smaller groups to beat much bigger groups, it comes at the cost of turning fights into the "who gets CC off quickest" competition. It will not really feel like a skill reward in most cases, and it will just frustrate players, because having your autonomy taken away is psychologically never a good idea. And that's what CC does.
    Maybe you could counter such effects by attaching additional iframes to dodges, attaching stability to every stunbreak, which will reward countering the CC the same way, it rewards the CC. Use it right, and it's impactful, and not useless. I still think this would in the benefit the larger group however. But it would at least be fair.

    There is a much better way: Diminishing returns. If several attacks, if several conditions, if several effects of the same kind hit the same target, each time the stacked impact would yield less of a result. Less damage, no additional CC, less condition stacks or stacks at a reduced duration. IMO this would be a much better way, however I am not sure the engine / servers could handle the additional necessary calculations gracefully.
    The same principles could be applied to stats by the way, which would also help, by no longer favoring glasscannon or supertank builds, instead setting the sweet point somewhere else. This could make fights more easy to handle. You can still get an edge by going full zerker or full minstrel or however you choose to optimize, but nowhere near as much as currently, and it could help increase build variance - though it probably does not help the player-numbers game.

    "and then we know that we have looked back through the ivory gates into that world of wonder which was ours before we were wise and unhappy"
    -- H. P. Lovecraft - Celephais

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i think there is a sweet spot between higher target caps and what we have currently. imo the big bombs of every class should hit more targets as long as it has a good cd (more targets, less duration), cleave should hit less, big ccs could hit more targets then big bombs, perhaps change stab removal grace period from 0.75s to 0.5 (maybe not at the same time as big cc buff, either or, but maybe both if necessary), make persistent aoes hit the same targets as long as they are in range (currently it hits only those closest to the center), buff boon removal, put a hard cap on boon durations and condi stacks/ durations, and put a lower cap on squad size (would make it so a lot of the times heals/ boons wouldn't reach the other squad if 2 squads stacked). finally commanders should have a grub mount.

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Senqu.8054Senqu.8054 Member ✭✭✭

    Before HoT it was indeed possible to defeat a whole Zerg with 5 to 8 people. Just saying...

  • I don't know much about the engine scaling challenges in GW2, but some (WvW-only) ideas:

    • Boon decay that increases with the number of players in close proximity. For example, your boons have -20% boon duration with 10 people near your character, -60% duration with 20 people, -80% with 30 people, etc. If this is too difficult to balance it could be constrained to key boons like stability.
    • Skills that increase their damage based on number of proximate players. Imagine if something like meteor shower hit 1,000% harder on enemies (for the current target cap) when more than 15 enemies are in its radius. Or a single-target burst that becomes a one-shot-kill when a player is near too many allies.

    Basically, disincentivizing huge stacking while preserving large-scale conflict.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @HappyHubris.1096 said:
    I don't know much about the engine scaling challenges in GW2, but some (WvW-only) ideas:

    • Boon decay that increases with the number of players in close proximity. For example, your boons have -20% boon duration with 10 people near your character, -60% duration with 20 people, -80% with 30 people, etc. If this is too difficult to balance it could be constrained to key boons like stability.
    • Skills that increase their damage based on number of proximate players. Imagine if something like meteor shower hit 1,000% harder on enemies (for the current target cap) when more than 15 enemies are in its radius. Or a single-target burst that becomes a one-shot-kill when a player is near too many allies.

    Basically, disincentivizing huge stacking while preserving large-scale conflict.

    More like disincentivizing people from playing.

    Keep in mind you should think about changes in regards to pve and whether or not it would be viable changes, because it's the base part of the game. I highly doubt they would put in boon duration decay based on the amount of players around. -20% will already affect raid groups.

    You guys seem to want to kill zerging outright, but think about the content and how much it would be affected. You think roaming around on your homebl with 5 enemies to hunt is fun? well most people don't hence why you don't see a lot of people roaming. Sure the absolute map queue blobs are a pain, and mostly can only be handled by a counter blob or if the enemy is completely terrible at playing their classes, but it provides bodies to fight.

    One shots will kill off pug zergs and even guild zergs, because I sure as hell will not run with 15 other clowns so that I can get one shotted by some 99% stealth deadeye, or a meteor covered from other aoes that all suddenly can just one shot anyone in them(one single ele can suddenly take out 15 man groups lol, heh and people thought burn guard was bad).

    I said in another post I wanted groups to fear bombs, but not THAT much. Not running with groups will now be a bigger defensive tool than dodge. Players will complain about this and anet will just be forced to revert defensive tools again especially the auto immunity stuff which a lot got changed to 300s for a reason, maybe even add more defense to compensate for the the massive damage increases.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • TheOneWhoSighs.7513TheOneWhoSighs.7513 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2021

    Honestly, take advice from WoW or ESO.

    Free Action Potions in WoW or Unstoppable potions in ESO.
    Make ignoring CC something you have to pay gold for, get rid of stability.

    Boom, there's your zerg busting force. A small group can pop potions to ignore CC and CC the hell out of the enemy zerg that likely won't pop said potions due to their cost.

    Also I have to say your description of ESO was a bit inaccurate. Small groups can kill blobs quite readily if they're organized. Trick is to run Sorc Dk and bomb the hell out of them while popping potions. See guilds do it all the time.

    Can the forum devs please make the dev tracker actually usable. No one wants to see posts in which a dev has commented on 2 months ago pop up just because some random person commented on it today.

    Why are we put here, just to suffer?