Why did they nerf ranger stances? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Why did they nerf ranger stances?

Gudradain.3892Gudradain.3892 Member ✭✭
edited March 12, 2021 in Ranger

I realized the other day that they took the time to nerf Ranger stances in WvW which strikes me as particularly odd considering that stances would be ranger best tool for group support and ranger are nearly automatically kicked from any organized group because they don't bring any group support.

Bear Stance: Cooldown increased from 25 seconds in PvE to 30 seconds in WvW
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bear_Stance

Moa Stance: Boon duration bonus reduced from 66% in PvE to 20% in WvW
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Moa_Stance

Griffon Stance: Might duration reduced from 8 seconds in PvE to 6 seconds in WvW
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Griffon_Stance

Did I miss a time where Ranger was the meta group support and they had to nerf it? As far as I can remember, Ranger have never been welcomed in organized squad because of their lack of group support so I can't understand that nerf.

And, it's not like if the trait to share the stance was really strong since it only grants 50% of the stance duration to party members.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leader_of_the_Pack

Comments

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    The Griffon stance nerf was made simply because 6s became the baseline might duration across the board.

    I assume the Moa stance nerf was made for similar reasons, reducing boon duration increase which was in line with the broader nerf of the feb patch of reducing most boon durations.

    Bear stance I have no idea.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It’s too bad the share can’t just be sharing it with teammates and not the ‘caster’.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • @Kondor.2904 said:
    You probably missed the time period where the pre-nerf boonbeast was a walking one-man army.

    It's still one-man army to some degree though. If you're not playing a class that have any kind of boon removal then gl.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2021

    @Gudradain.3892 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Gudradain.3892 said:
    Did I miss a time where Ranger was the meta group support and they had to nerf it?

    Are you really trying to pretend that sb stances are strictly group support skills?

    Not at all, I'm rather saying that soulbeast stance could be the best group support skills ranger has to offer. And considering that they are not welcomed in organized group due to their lack of group support, I don't understand why those were nerfed. If anything, they should be buffed toward group support.

    You've started with "not at all" and then pivoted right back into "not understanding why they got nerfed". So do you understand this is not a predominantly group support skill and it wasn't exactly nerfed "because it was too strong as group support" or not?

  • Shroud.2307Shroud.2307 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2021

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    -snip-

    Because all of those things have various counters, are only viable solo/small scale, and have already been nerfed.

    "Raid boss" Necro is a literal meme. All it is is a lot of health and it's useless outside of 1v1/X. Similar to old S/D Weaver it only kills what commits to it because it has terrible damage but high sustain. You can literally walk away from it and it has 0 impact in large scale fights. The difference between the two is that Necro is shut down a lot more easily because it's weak to CC, and there are a lot of CC's in this game. Weaver on the other hand could just evade for days and heal through anything you threw at it.
    With that said, I wouldn't be against a nerf to Unholy Martyr and Signet of Undeath because both of them are overly rewarding of passive gameplay. So by all means nerf it, but it's already a bad build.

    Grenades are pretty busted in WvW, but it's largely due to the synergy between Barrier and multi-hits.
    Some suggested changes: Impact Armor should only grant Barrier from melee attacks, increase Bulwark Gyro cooldown to 30seconds, and split Explosive Entrance so that it deals reduced damage while used with Scrapper or Holosmith.
    This way Grenades/Grenade Barrage doesn't grant Barrier and Bulwark Gyro has more downtime, and you don't get a free 3 - 4k+ hit after every time you dodge from Explosive Entrance which pretty significantly buffs Grenade Barrage.

    Holosmith is garbage tier now, the only thing giving it any relevance is Explosives because of Explosive Entrance and Flashbang. Laser's Edge is also to blame, but at least it takes some resource management to maintain the damage increase. Still, reducing the damage increase to 10% would be fine.
    Otherwise, Holo does pretty terrible damage. If you're not using Explosives it literally hits like a sack of potatoes.

    Of the videos you linked, all of them have been nerfed, and only one (Grenade Scrapper) is still OP but will probably get some nerfs in the future.

    Specifically referring to Boonbeast here, it was (and to some degree still is) an issue because it countered its counter, Necro, and was at least decent in large scale fights. Solo and small scale it was just busted because nothing could contest a good one. Removing/Corrupting Boons is the only real way to kill them but with the mobility, Cleanse, and damage they have it's more of a soft counter.
    Although it has received multiple nerfs, some undeserving, others entirely so, it is still a strong roaming build. And somehow Dolyak Stance is still untouched, so there's also that.

    Necro/Engi/Ranger/Rev | Maguuma | Diamond Legend
    [YWY] Weeping Valley | [xo] Fantasies
    My Youtube: Shroud
    "I'd rather lose playing something I enjoy than win playing something I don't."

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2021

    @Shroud.2307 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    -snip-

    Because all of those things have various counters, are only viable solo/small scale, and have already been nerfed.

    "Raid boss" Necro is a literal meme. All it is is a lot of health and it's useless outside of 1v1/X. Similar to old S/D Weaver it only kills what commits to it because it has terrible damage but high sustain. You can literally walk away from it and it has 0 impact in large scale fights. The difference between the two is that Necro is shut down a lot more easily because it's weak to CC, and there are a lot of CC's in this game. Weaver on the other hand could just evade for days and heal through anything you threw at it.
    With that said, I wouldn't be against a nerf to Unholy Martyr and Signet of Undeath because both of them are overly rewarding of passive gameplay. So by all means nerf it, but it's already a bad build.

    Grenades are pretty busted in WvW, but it's largely due to the synergy between Barrier and multi-hits.
    Some suggested changes: Impact Armor should only grant Barrier from melee attacks, increase Bulwark Gyro cooldown to 30seconds, and split Explosive Entrance so that it deals reduced damage while used with Scrapper or Holosmith.
    This way Grenades/Grenade Barrage doesn't grant Barrier and Bulwark Gyro has more downtime, and you don't get a free 3 - 4k+ hit after every time you dodge from Explosive Entrance which pretty significantly buffs Grenade Barrage.

    Holosmith is garbage tier now, the only thing giving it any relevance is Explosives because of Explosive Entrance and Flashbang. Laser's Edge is also to blame, but at least it takes some resource management to maintain the damage increase. Still, reducing the damage increase to 10% would be fine.
    Otherwise, Holo does pretty terrible damage. If you're not using Explosives it literally hits like a sack of potatoes.

    Of the videos you linked, all of them have been nerfed, and only one (Grenade Scrapper) is still OP but will probably get some nerfs in the future.

    Specifically referring to Boonbeast here, it was (and to some degree still is) an issue because it countered its counter, Necro, and was at least decent in large scale fights. Solo and small scale it was just busted because nothing could contest a good one. Removing/Corrupting Boons is the only real way to kill them but with the mobility, Cleanse, and damage they have it's more of a soft counter.
    Although it has received multiple nerfs, some undeserving, others entirely so, it is still a strong roaming build. And somehow Dolyak Stance is still untouched, so there's also that.

    The videos show holos "tanking" several players = video proof of my words...you claim otherwise

    Come out with video of thse boonbeast doing the same thing as you claim...easy to talk with 0 proof , on the contrary of you I play : necromancer -elementalist - warrior -guardian and ranger and nothing of what you state is true...I can literally tank several people with core condi necro, the idea that core necro does no dmg lol.....

    "Raid boss" Necro is a literal meme

    Maybe it's you the problem...if you die to a ranger pewpew from a tower..you are the problem and if instead you die to somebody roaming and who spent years on ranger..again you are the problem

    Please tell me more about "poor nerfed holosmith"....

    In all of this..you are the problem not the class, there are holosmith builds out there with alchemy line and elixirs with more boon uptime than 2 "legendary" boonbeast combined, if you still insist with your argument..you go in WvW and try to survive outnumbered on the "dodge for day" weaver or "immortal" boonbeast

    Holosmith ...garbage tier...the amout of horse manure you can read on the forum is staggering, it's like being in the twilight zone once you open this forum...."Holosmith garbage tier in wvw"...my eyes are bleeding...I am dreaming

    Please..show me how this following build is garbage tier:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Explosive_Roamer

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • In short, they did it because people complained who didn’t understand how to counter.

    Just another WvW lifer who'll never say die... while dying again and again!

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shroud.2307 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    -snip-

    Because all of those things have various counters, are only viable solo/small scale, and have already been nerfed.

    "Raid boss" Necro is a literal meme. All it is is a lot of health and it's useless outside of 1v1/X. Similar to old S/D Weaver it only kills what commits to it because it has terrible damage but high sustain. You can literally walk away from it and it has 0 impact in large scale fights. The difference between the two is that Necro is shut down a lot more easily because it's weak to CC, and there are a lot of CC's in this game. Weaver on the other hand could just evade for days and heal through anything you threw at it.
    With that said, I wouldn't be against a nerf to Unholy Martyr and Signet of Undeath because both of them are overly rewarding of passive gameplay. So by all means nerf it, but it's already a bad build.

    Grenades are pretty busted in WvW, but it's largely due to the synergy between Barrier and multi-hits.
    Some suggested changes: Impact Armor should only grant Barrier from melee attacks, increase Bulwark Gyro cooldown to 30seconds, and split Explosive Entrance so that it deals reduced damage while used with Scrapper or Holosmith.
    This way Grenades/Grenade Barrage doesn't grant Barrier and Bulwark Gyro has more downtime, and you don't get a free 3 - 4k+ hit after every time you dodge from Explosive Entrance which pretty significantly buffs Grenade Barrage.

    Holosmith is garbage tier now, the only thing giving it any relevance is Explosives because of Explosive Entrance and Flashbang. Laser's Edge is also to blame, but at least it takes some resource management to maintain the damage increase. Still, reducing the damage increase to 10% would be fine.
    Otherwise, Holo does pretty terrible damage. If you're not using Explosives it literally hits like a sack of potatoes.

    Of the videos you linked, all of them have been nerfed, and only one (Grenade Scrapper) is still OP but will probably get some nerfs in the future.

    Specifically referring to Boonbeast here, it was (and to some degree still is) an issue because it countered its counter, Necro, and was at least decent in large scale fights. Solo and small scale it was just busted because nothing could contest a good one. Removing/Corrupting Boons is the only real way to kill them but with the mobility, Cleanse, and damage they have it's more of a soft counter.
    Although it has received multiple nerfs, some undeserving, others entirely so, it is still a strong roaming build. And somehow Dolyak Stance is still untouched, so there's also that.

    i agree on nerf to dolyak stance. though i feel like boon beast today doesn’t have the dmg to actually be a major threat to anybody. NM + WS means your pets are useless and you’ll have an extremely low amount of dmg, even if you can stack 25might. what you mentioned about weaver and necro apply to boonbeast today also. you can just walk away. they are also mostly selfish builds meaning you can simply focus attention on other enemies and kill them first and there’s not a whole lot a boonbeast can do about it.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Shroud.2307 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    -snip-

    Because all of those things have various counters, are only viable solo/small scale, and have already been nerfed.

    "Raid boss" Necro is a literal meme. All it is is a lot of health and it's useless outside of 1v1/X. Similar to old S/D Weaver it only kills what commits to it because it has terrible damage but high sustain. You can literally walk away from it and it has 0 impact in large scale fights. The difference between the two is that Necro is shut down a lot more easily because it's weak to CC, and there are a lot of CC's in this game. Weaver on the other hand could just evade for days and heal through anything you threw at it.
    With that said, I wouldn't be against a nerf to Unholy Martyr and Signet of Undeath because both of them are overly rewarding of passive gameplay. So by all means nerf it, but it's already a bad build.

    Grenades are pretty busted in WvW, but it's largely due to the synergy between Barrier and multi-hits.
    Some suggested changes: Impact Armor should only grant Barrier from melee attacks, increase Bulwark Gyro cooldown to 30seconds, and split Explosive Entrance so that it deals reduced damage while used with Scrapper or Holosmith.
    This way Grenades/Grenade Barrage doesn't grant Barrier and Bulwark Gyro has more downtime, and you don't get a free 3 - 4k+ hit after every time you dodge from Explosive Entrance which pretty significantly buffs Grenade Barrage.

    Holosmith is garbage tier now, the only thing giving it any relevance is Explosives because of Explosive Entrance and Flashbang. Laser's Edge is also to blame, but at least it takes some resource management to maintain the damage increase. Still, reducing the damage increase to 10% would be fine.
    Otherwise, Holo does pretty terrible damage. If you're not using Explosives it literally hits like a sack of potatoes.

    Of the videos you linked, all of them have been nerfed, and only one (Grenade Scrapper) is still OP but will probably get some nerfs in the future.

    Specifically referring to Boonbeast here, it was (and to some degree still is) an issue because it countered its counter, Necro, and was at least decent in large scale fights. Solo and small scale it was just busted because nothing could contest a good one. Removing/Corrupting Boons is the only real way to kill them but with the mobility, Cleanse, and damage they have it's more of a soft counter.
    Although it has received multiple nerfs, some undeserving, others entirely so, it is still a strong roaming build. And somehow Dolyak Stance is still untouched, so there's also that.

    i agree on nerf to dolyak stance. though i feel like boon beast today doesn’t have the dmg to actually be a major threat to anybody. NM + WS means your pets are useless and you’ll have an extremely low amount of dmg, even if you can stack 25might. what you mentioned about weaver and necro apply to boonbeast today also. you can just walk away. they are also mostly selfish builds meaning you can simply focus attention on other enemies and kill them first and there’s not a whole lot a boonbeast can do about it.

    Nerfing dolyak stance wouldn't change anything , ranger is neither the top roaming class or a complete wvw class, nerfing dolyak stance at this point would be like nerfing a tool from 5 to 4.5 , it's not like a new player starts today, slot a soulbeast with dolyak stance and then proceed to tank 5-6 people in wvw with it.

    Ranger right now is a strong class vs mediocre players and it's the reason Top roaming guild just spam scrappers/holos/firebrand/.tempest/reapers and condi revs, on ranger you die quite easily once you face 2 or more above average players and this because Ranger doesn't have anymore a true bruiser build as NM boonbeast was, the class at best can play hit and run with good sustain to sport..nothing more than that

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Shroud.2307Shroud.2307 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2021

    @bigo.9037 said:
    i agree on nerf to dolyak stance. though i feel like boon beast today doesn’t have the dmg to actually be a major threat to anybody. NM + WS means your pets are useless and you’ll have an extremely low amount of dmg, even if you can stack 25might. what you mentioned about weaver and necro apply to boonbeast today also. you can just walk away. they are also mostly selfish builds meaning you can simply focus attention on other enemies and kill them first and there’s not a whole lot a boonbeast can do about it.

    Very true, though it also depends how offensive you build. If you're mostly Marauder with a little bit of Diviner/Commander and some Boon Duration runes, then you still do pretty solid damage while also having moderate uptime on Prot and other Boons. In general though yes, the damage is a lot worse than it used to be and Boonbeast is a lot more manageable. Without being able to swap pets it's also much less mobile, but if it's using any pets with Leaps on merge it still has more mobility than S/D Weaver.

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Nerfing dolyak stance wouldn't change anything , ranger is neither the top roaming class or a complete wvw class, nerfing dolyak stance at this point would be like nerfing a tool from 5 to 4.5 , it's not like a new player starts today, slot a soulbeast with dolyak stance and then proceed to tank 5-6 people in wvw with it.

    Ranger right now is a strong class vs mediocre players and it's the reason Top roaming guild just spam scrappers/holos/firebrand/.tempest/reapers and condi revs, on ranger you die quite easily once you face 2 or more above average players and this because Ranger doesn't have anymore a true bruiser build as NM boonbeast was, the class at best can play hit and run with good sustain to sport..nothing more than that

    This is the problem a lot of players create. They want to keep OP thing but also want buffs. You need to make some compromises.

    Dolyak Stance is an absurdly stacked skill that could qualify as an elite. It doesn't need to be gutted, it just need some small changes to give it more counterplay. Either it should have the -33% damage reduction (also Condi damage reduction) removed/reduced, or it should have the soft CC immunity removed. Then Soulbeast could get some small buffs in other areas, maybe to something like Unstoppable Union just for example.

    Necro/Engi/Ranger/Rev | Maguuma | Diamond Legend
    [YWY] Weeping Valley | [xo] Fantasies
    My Youtube: Shroud
    "I'd rather lose playing something I enjoy than win playing something I don't."

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shroud.2307 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:
    i agree on nerf to dolyak stance. though i feel like boon beast today doesn’t have the dmg to actually be a major threat to anybody. NM + WS means your pets are useless and you’ll have an extremely low amount of dmg, even if you can stack 25might. what you mentioned about weaver and necro apply to boonbeast today also. you can just walk away. they are also mostly selfish builds meaning you can simply focus attention on other enemies and kill them first and there’s not a whole lot a boonbeast can do about it.

    Very true, though it also depends how offensive you build. If you're mostly Marauder with a little bit of Diviner/Commander and some Boon Duration runes, then you still do pretty solid damage while also having moderate uptime on Prot and other Boons. In general though yes, the damage is a lot worse than it used to be and Boonbeast is a lot more manageable. Without being able to swap pets it's also much less mobile, but if it's using any pets with Leaps on merge it still has more mobility than S/D Weaver.

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Nerfing dolyak stance wouldn't change anything , ranger is neither the top roaming class or a complete wvw class, nerfing dolyak stance at this point would be like nerfing a tool from 5 to 4.5 , it's not like a new player starts today, slot a soulbeast with dolyak stance and then proceed to tank 5-6 people in wvw with it.

    Ranger right now is a strong class vs mediocre players and it's the reason Top roaming guild just spam scrappers/holos/firebrand/.tempest/reapers and condi revs, on ranger you die quite easily once you face 2 or more above average players and this because Ranger doesn't have anymore a true bruiser build as NM boonbeast was, the class at best can play hit and run with good sustain to sport..nothing more than that

    This is the problem a lot of players create. They want to keep OP thing but also want buffs. You need to make some compromises.

    Dolyak Stance is an absurdly stacked skill that could qualify as an elite. It doesn't need to be gutted, it just need some small changes to give it more counterplay. Either it should have the -33% damage reduction (also Condi damage reduction) removed/reduced, or it should have the soft CC immunity removed. Then Soulbeast could get some small buffs in other areas, maybe to something like Unstoppable Union just for example.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/56636/balance-discussion-moa-stance-needs-some-changes/p1
    I don't think there are many people less biased than me.
    I consider builds ans skill in the context of equally skilled players who spent years in WvW equally and who own pretty much every single stat in the game, I consider people who have been roaming for years again, fought hundreds of duels and so on....in that context current "boonbeast" is mediocre at best : no aoe- no pet swap, minimal support...it get outshined by other professions in same category.

    To top it all, most professions enjoy a massive mobility creep atm and as such the previous mobility advantage of rangers in wvw is mostly void , I see professions with close to perma superspeed..you can swoop all you want with bird/GS...they'll catch you, as it stands the profession only shine in scenarios of mediocrity against randoms and possibly in uninterrupted 1vs1..other than that I don't see any use for current ranger

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Shroud.2307Shroud.2307 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    I don't think there are many people less biased than me.

    Everything I've seen you say so far contradicts that statement. I tried to start a discussion with you and you responded by giving me the same victim garbage that every profession main is always regurgitating.

    You think it's mediocre because the vast majority of people who play it are mediocre. In the hands of someone who knows how to use it, it is far from.

    Necro/Engi/Ranger/Rev | Maguuma | Diamond Legend
    [YWY] Weeping Valley | [xo] Fantasies
    My Youtube: Shroud
    "I'd rather lose playing something I enjoy than win playing something I don't."

  • So what? They need nerfs as well, what's your point? You don't really want to make an argument "but others are more broken", right? What you've posted isn't a even a drop in the ocean of problems, Boonbeast is just 1 of many that need nerfs lmao.
    Why does ranger can have near perma boons in the first place? Sustain for free cause why not? The child of powercreep like pretty much every class in the game?
    I don't really think A-net will be able to balance this game properly ever with how "elite specializations" are based on only 1 trait line.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2021

    @Shroud.2307 said:

    Grenades are pretty busted in WvW, but it's largely due to the synergy between Barrier and multi-hits.
    Some suggested changes: Impact Armor should only grant Barrier from melee attacks, increase Bulwark Gyro cooldown to 30seconds, and split Explosive Entrance so that it deals reduced damage while used with Scrapper or Holosmith.
    This way Grenades/Grenade Barrage doesn't grant Barrier and Bulwark Gyro has more downtime, and you don't get a free 3 - 4k+ hit after every time you dodge from Explosive Entrance which pretty significantly buffs Grenade Barrage.

    This suggestion that barrier application just works with melee is terrible.
    Just compare how many ranged weapons and how many melee weapons scrapper has access to:

    Ranged Weapons/Kits

    • rifle
    • grenades
    • pistols (granted, we should exclude these, since scrapper already doesn't have synergy with condition playstyles)
    • elixir gun
    • flamethrower
    • mortar

    Melee Weapons/Kits

    • hammer
    • bombs (and even these are arguable if they count as melee, since you can kite with them and the delayed damage can mean that you already have built up some distance to the enemy until the damage occurs)
    • tool kit (LOL)

    So basically, your suggestion is to hard lock scrappers into hammer and bomb kit and forbid them to have any synergy with their other weapons and kits. Yeah, no, not gonna happen.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    So what? They need nerfs as well, what's your point? You don't really want to make an argument "but others are more broken", right? What you've posted isn't a even a drop in the ocean of problems, Boonbeast is just 1 of many that need nerfs lmao.
    Why does ranger can have near perma boons in the first place? Sustain for free cause why not? The child of powercreep like pretty much every class in the game?
    I don't really think A-net will be able to balance this game properly ever with how "elite specializations" are based on only 1 trait line.

    I am making a point of professions and specs being far far more broken than already hard nerfed boonbeast indeed. You can go ahead and nerf dolyak stance to your heart content...It would make zero difference at the top, I face/get ganked/chased by : baroness of the arena, gods of pvp/WvW ect ect , they all running around with permaboon holos+firebrands+condi heralds+reaper ...no magical boonbeast in sight and you know why? Because that works against pve zerglings only .

    Respect to the past, they nerfed the sustain, removed pet swap, reduced boon duration, reduced axe main hand damage and nerfed mobility...so yeah what is left only works against the low common denominator.

    And finally...mmo players always ask for nerfs on anything that kills them...It could be anything at any level, no surprise there

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2021

    @Shroud.2307 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    I don't think there are many people less biased than me.

    Everything I've seen you say so far contradicts that statement. I tried to start a discussion with you and you responded by giving me the same victim garbage that every profession main is always regurgitating.

    You think it's mediocre because the vast majority of people who play it are mediocre. In the hands of someone who knows how to use it, it is far from.

    Somebody who states that holosmith is garbage tier in WvW especially....he doesn't really want to have a discussion.

    I gave facts...where you just keep going moved by your bias and baseless assumptions.

    If any of what you say would be true...none of the videos I have linked should exist and the top 100 players who roam around in tight packs would do so on a boonbeast instead than holosmith...unless you want to claim that players with a god/baroness title and from MRGA - KILL -SA and similar guilds are mediocre players unable to abuse the presumed busted status of rangers.

    If you want to keep going with your assumptions...we need some video proof of your claims...Good luck

    It's not just a matter of staying alive that makes for a great roaming spec, it's why current boonbeast at best can meme 1vs1 and die easy the second they get ganked

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2021

    @Gudradain.3892 said:
    Did I miss a time where Ranger was the meta group support and they had to nerf it? As far as I can remember, Ranger have never been welcomed in organized squad because of their lack of group support so I can't understand that nerf.

    The answer to your question is that ANet reduced damage, sustain and boon duration for all professions in competitive mode in the patch that nerfed those stances. It was merely in line with what they did.

    NB.: While ranger's support isn't optimal in organized squad, it's not in any way "lacking" (it's just not what's perceived as needed support in WvW atm). It's not difficult for a ranger (druid) to keep up prot, regen, vigor, fury and swiftness on 10 allies, all while healing and farting might stacks right and left. Soulbeast and it's stances is slightly less effective on boons and heal but benefit from different advantages (like group evade, groupe stunbreak, group stability... etc.).

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Gudradain.3892 said:
    Did I miss a time where Ranger was the meta group support and they had to nerf it? As far as I can remember, Ranger have never been welcomed in organized squad because of their lack of group support so I can't understand that nerf.

    The answer to your question is that ANet reduced damage, sustain and boon duration for some professions in competitive mode in the patch that nerfed those stances. It was merely in line with what they did.

    NB.: While ranger's support isn't optimal in organized squad, it's not in any way "lacking" (it's just not what's perceived as needed support in WvW atm). It's not difficult for a ranger (druid) to keep up prot, regen, vigor, fury and swiftness on 10 allies, all while healing and farting might stacks right and left. Soulbeast and it's stances is slightly less effective on boons and heal but benefit from different advantages (like group evade, groupe stunbreak, group stability... etc.).

    Fixed it for you : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/98220/game-update-notes-february-25-2020#latest , this is not all professions, all I see is the obvious elementalist which doesn't get couple of patches without received nerfs , ranger which just get dumbed down whenever they become optimal for competitive gameplay at the top

    Revenants, guardians and holosmiths have not been touched at all in WvW for the last 1.5 year , holosmith is still the 2019 version for at least 80% of it, condi heralds basically unnerfed and so on

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • UmbraNoctis.1907UmbraNoctis.1907 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Gudradain.3892 said:
    Did I miss a time where Ranger was the meta group support and they had to nerf it? As far as I can remember, Ranger have never been welcomed in organized squad because of their lack of group support so I can't understand that nerf.

    The answer to your question is that ANet reduced damage, sustain and boon duration for some professions in competitive mode in the patch that nerfed those stances. It was merely in line with what they did.

    NB.: While ranger's support isn't optimal in organized squad, it's not in any way "lacking" (it's just not what's perceived as needed support in WvW atm). It's not difficult for a ranger (druid) to keep up prot, regen, vigor, fury and swiftness on 10 allies, all while healing and farting might stacks right and left. Soulbeast and it's stances is slightly less effective on boons and heal but benefit from different advantages (like group evade, groupe stunbreak, group stability... etc.).

    Fixed it for you : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/98220/game-update-notes-february-25-2020#latest , this is not all professions, all I see is the obvious elementalist which doesn't get couple of patches without received nerfs , ranger which just get dumbed down whenever they become optimal for competitive gameplay at the top

    Revenants, guardians and holosmiths have not been touched at all in WvW for the last 1.5 year , holosmith is still the 2019 version for at least 80% of it, condi heralds basically unnerfed and so on

    That's simply not true. All classes got nerfed with that patch. No exceptions. And neither ranger nor ele are in a nearly as bad state as pretty much all your posts might suggest. "No bias", sure ...

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    The answer to your question is that ANet reduced damage, sustain and boon duration for some professions in competitive mode in the patch that nerfed those stances. It was merely in line with what they did.

    NB.: While ranger's support isn't optimal in organized squad, it's not in any way "lacking" (it's just not what's perceived as needed support in WvW atm). It's not difficult for a ranger (druid) to keep up prot, regen, vigor, fury and swiftness on 10 allies, all while healing and farting might stacks right and left. Soulbeast and it's stances is slightly less effective on boons and heal but benefit from different advantages (like group evade, groupe stunbreak, group stability... etc.).

    Fixed it for you : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/98220/game-update-notes-february-25-2020#latest , this is not all professions, all I see is the obvious elementalist which doesn't get couple of patches without received nerfs , ranger which just get dumbed down whenever they become optimal for competitive gameplay at the top

    Revenants, guardians and holosmiths have not been touched at all in WvW for the last 1.5 year , holosmith is still the 2019 version for at least 80% of it, condi heralds basically unnerfed and so on

    Does your "claims" invalidate in any way the fact that the stance nerfs came along a global reduction of damage, sustain and boon duration in competitive modes for all professions?

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Gudradain.3892 said:
    Did I miss a time where Ranger was the meta group support and they had to nerf it? As far as I can remember, Ranger have never been welcomed in organized squad because of their lack of group support so I can't understand that nerf.

    The answer to your question is that ANet reduced damage, sustain and boon duration for some professions in competitive mode in the patch that nerfed those stances. It was merely in line with what they did.

    NB.: While ranger's support isn't optimal in organized squad, it's not in any way "lacking" (it's just not what's perceived as needed support in WvW atm). It's not difficult for a ranger (druid) to keep up prot, regen, vigor, fury and swiftness on 10 allies, all while healing and farting might stacks right and left. Soulbeast and it's stances is slightly less effective on boons and heal but benefit from different advantages (like group evade, groupe stunbreak, group stability... etc.).

    Fixed it for you : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/98220/game-update-notes-february-25-2020#latest , this is not all professions, all I see is the obvious elementalist which doesn't get couple of patches without received nerfs , ranger which just get dumbed down whenever they become optimal for competitive gameplay at the top

    Revenants, guardians and holosmiths have not been touched at all in WvW for the last 1.5 year , holosmith is still the 2019 version for at least 80% of it, condi heralds basically unnerfed and so on

    That's simply not true. All classes got nerfed with that patch. No exceptions. And neither ranger nor ele are in a nearly as bad state as pretty much all your posts might suggest. "No bias", sure ...

    The meta videos, websites say otherwise...AT final matches say otherwise...WvW commanding say otherwise, everything points toward my truth which is still backed up by hard facts...meanwhile forum goers say : "nah you're biased" ....

    Please tell me more about how rangers and eles are fine atm compared to the rest....by fine I mean competitive at the high level..no pve zerging

    All you need is to have a single bloody ele in a final..and few weeks later they nerf an utility .....meanwhile EU and NA teams go around winning tournaments with triple revenant

    But hey..I am surely biased, you can see all rangers and eles here...I surely don't know what I am talking about

    People should stop putting words into my mouth as I have never stated that ele is completely unplayable, an uphill battle yes..but you can still get some mileage out if if you log in for medium calibre gameplay

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    The answer to your question is that ANet reduced damage, sustain and boon duration for some professions in competitive mode in the patch that nerfed those stances. It was merely in line with what they did.

    NB.: While ranger's support isn't optimal in organized squad, it's not in any way "lacking" (it's just not what's perceived as needed support in WvW atm). It's not difficult for a ranger (druid) to keep up prot, regen, vigor, fury and swiftness on 10 allies, all while healing and farting might stacks right and left. Soulbeast and it's stances is slightly less effective on boons and heal but benefit from different advantages (like group evade, groupe stunbreak, group stability... etc.).

    Fixed it for you : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/98220/game-update-notes-february-25-2020#latest , this is not all professions, all I see is the obvious elementalist which doesn't get couple of patches without received nerfs , ranger which just get dumbed down whenever they become optimal for competitive gameplay at the top

    Revenants, guardians and holosmiths have not been touched at all in WvW for the last 1.5 year , holosmith is still the 2019 version for at least 80% of it, condi heralds basically unnerfed and so on

    Does your "claims" invalidate in any way the fact that the stance nerfs came along a global reduction of damage, sustain and boon duration in competitive modes for all professions?

    Yes! because they nerfed the sustain of some profession while others can still facetank damage when the skill cap is reached...or you missed the part with triple rev teams winning tournaments?..I don't know how that sit with your claim of global sustain/dmg nerf, if that would be true..you would not see such degree of stacking

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2021

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    The answer to your question is that ANet reduced damage, sustain and boon duration for some professions in competitive mode in the patch that nerfed those stances. It was merely in line with what they did.

    NB.: While ranger's support isn't optimal in organized squad, it's not in any way "lacking" (it's just not what's perceived as needed support in WvW atm). It's not difficult for a ranger (druid) to keep up prot, regen, vigor, fury and swiftness on 10 allies, all while healing and farting might stacks right and left. Soulbeast and it's stances is slightly less effective on boons and heal but benefit from different advantages (like group evade, groupe stunbreak, group stability... etc.).

    Fixed it for you : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/98220/game-update-notes-february-25-2020#latest , this is not all professions, all I see is the obvious elementalist which doesn't get couple of patches without received nerfs , ranger which just get dumbed down whenever they become optimal for competitive gameplay at the top

    Revenants, guardians and holosmiths have not been touched at all in WvW for the last 1.5 year , holosmith is still the 2019 version for at least 80% of it, condi heralds basically unnerfed and so on

    Does your "claims" invalidate in any way the fact that the stance nerfs came along a global reduction of damage, sustain and boon duration in competitive modes for all professions?

    Yes! because they nerfed the sustain of some profession while others can still facetank damage when the skill cap is reached...or you missed the part with triple rev teams winning tournaments?..I don't know how that sit with your claim of global sustain/dmg nerf, if that would be true..you would not see such degree of stacking

    You should read again the patch note then because the patch note clearly and objectively prove you wrong.

    Edit: In any way, the balance result not putting all profession into a perfectly flawless balanced state between each other doesn't invalidate the change that were made. The flaw in your point is that you base yourself on subjective arguments while I'm just stating that yes, indeed, all profession got a hit on sustain, damage and boons duration in the patch that hosted these changes to stances.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    The answer to your question is that ANet reduced damage, sustain and boon duration for some professions in competitive mode in the patch that nerfed those stances. It was merely in line with what they did.

    NB.: While ranger's support isn't optimal in organized squad, it's not in any way "lacking" (it's just not what's perceived as needed support in WvW atm). It's not difficult for a ranger (druid) to keep up prot, regen, vigor, fury and swiftness on 10 allies, all while healing and farting might stacks right and left. Soulbeast and it's stances is slightly less effective on boons and heal but benefit from different advantages (like group evade, groupe stunbreak, group stability... etc.).

    Fixed it for you : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/98220/game-update-notes-february-25-2020#latest , this is not all professions, all I see is the obvious elementalist which doesn't get couple of patches without received nerfs , ranger which just get dumbed down whenever they become optimal for competitive gameplay at the top

    Revenants, guardians and holosmiths have not been touched at all in WvW for the last 1.5 year , holosmith is still the 2019 version for at least 80% of it, condi heralds basically unnerfed and so on

    Does your "claims" invalidate in any way the fact that the stance nerfs came along a global reduction of damage, sustain and boon duration in competitive modes for all professions?

    Yes! because they nerfed the sustain of some profession while others can still facetank damage when the skill cap is reached...or you missed the part with triple rev teams winning tournaments?..I don't know how that sit with your claim of global sustain/dmg nerf, if that would be true..you would not see such degree of stacking

    You should read again the patch note then because the patch note clearly and objectively prove you wrong.

    I read them multiple times and all I see is actual nerfs to some professions and "literal slap on the wrist" for others....when is about elementalist, KABLAM! a 50% CD increase out of the hat from the start, complete removal or 50% decrease in coefficient......then you pick a class like revenant : "might reduced from 3s to 1s" ...such massive nerf..what about jalis nerfs?shortbow ?...nothing of it touched and teams still running triple rev like nobody business.

    You can read the patches too, just explain how exactly I am the one biased here!

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2021

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    You should read again the patch note then because the patch note clearly and objectively prove you wrong.

    I read them multiple times and all I see is actual nerfs to some professions and "literal slap on the wrist" for others....when is about elementalist, KABLAM! a 50% CD increase out of the hat from the start, complete removal or 50% decrease in coefficient......then you pick a class like revenant : "might reduced from 3s to 1s" ...such massive nerf..what about jalis nerfs?shortbow ?...nothing of it touched and teams still running triple rev like nobody business.

    You can read the patches too, just explain how exactly I am the one biased here!

    You might have missed it:
    Short Bow
    Shattershot: Reduced power coefficient from 0.65 to 0.44. Increased bleeding duration from 3 seconds to 4 seconds.
    Bloodbane Path: Increased cooldown from 3 seconds to 5 seconds.
    Scorchrazor: Reduced power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.01. Reduced burning duration from 4 seconds to 1 second.

    The worse, is that the only reason you're complaining about renegade's shortbow is because it got a mechanical change on one of it's skills in july 2020 that made him a reliable source of damage. Something that it wasn't before july 2020.

    Anyway, some of the weapons skills of the rev have their CD increased by 150% (since you like the big number), some energy cost are increased, most might source are reduced to 6 second duration down from 8/10s... etc. There is also a whole rework of 2 of the revenant's core traitline in this patch, retribution's sustain is reduced by at least 1/3rd, Salvation sustain take an even harder hit, invocation and herald's sustain also take significant hits... etc. Jalis didn't take a nerf? Is there even anything worth nerfing on Jalis? Want the road to deal less damage?

    You are biased because you only look at thing subjectively not objectively. Nothing more nothing else. The elementalist wasn't hit more or harder than other professions, neither was the ranger. Neither the ranger nor the elementalist were some kind of martyrs sacrified on the altar of the gods of tyria for the sake of the other professions' growth in strength in this patch. Every profession got the equal rough treatment, their share of kicks in the kitten.

    Edit: Let's not go over the nerfs made for the sake of WvW in July and december 2020 on revenant. All those things seemingly invisible to your eyes yet very real.

  • UmbraNoctis.1907UmbraNoctis.1907 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2021

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Gudradain.3892 said:
    Did I miss a time where Ranger was the meta group support and they had to nerf it? As far as I can remember, Ranger have never been welcomed in organized squad because of their lack of group support so I can't understand that nerf.

    The answer to your question is that ANet reduced damage, sustain and boon duration for some professions in competitive mode in the patch that nerfed those stances. It was merely in line with what they did.

    NB.: While ranger's support isn't optimal in organized squad, it's not in any way "lacking" (it's just not what's perceived as needed support in WvW atm). It's not difficult for a ranger (druid) to keep up prot, regen, vigor, fury and swiftness on 10 allies, all while healing and farting might stacks right and left. Soulbeast and it's stances is slightly less effective on boons and heal but benefit from different advantages (like group evade, groupe stunbreak, group stability... etc.).

    Fixed it for you : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/98220/game-update-notes-february-25-2020#latest , this is not all professions, all I see is the obvious elementalist which doesn't get couple of patches without received nerfs , ranger which just get dumbed down whenever they become optimal for competitive gameplay at the top

    Revenants, guardians and holosmiths have not been touched at all in WvW for the last 1.5 year , holosmith is still the 2019 version for at least 80% of it, condi heralds basically unnerfed and so on

    That's simply not true. All classes got nerfed with that patch. No exceptions. And neither ranger nor ele are in a nearly as bad state as pretty much all your posts might suggest. "No bias", sure ...

    The meta videos, websites say otherwise...AT final matches say otherwise...WvW commanding say otherwise, everything points toward my truth which is still backed up by hard facts...meanwhile forum goers say : "nah you're biased" ....

    Please tell me more about how rangers and eles are fine atm compared to the rest....by fine I mean competitive at the high level..no pve zerging
    [...]

    First you talk about WvW, now PvP. Maybe make clear what you are actually talking about, because there are pretty significant differences between game modes (and even within game modes, especially in WvW)

    Anyway, you just linked videos showcasing weaver winning monthly tournaments (by a player who is not known to be a weaver main, so you can't argue he is only playing the class because he likes it so much). Ofc weaver isn't (and shouldn't be - nothing should) on the same lvl as rev right now, but neither are the other classes. So what was your point again?

    Ranger is indeed lacking when it comes to competitive PvP, and never has been great for WvW zerging (which i believe is intentional design), but it is absolutely fine for WvW roaming. Weaver is also a solid roamer, tempest is meta for "tryhard" small scale grps and both specs also have decent zerg builds.

    There are also other classes that have fallen out of PvP meta, yet i don't see you crying about those. Why could that be?

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    The answer to your question is that ANet reduced damage, sustain and boon duration for some professions in competitive mode in the patch that nerfed those stances. It was merely in line with what they did.

    NB.: While ranger's support isn't optimal in organized squad, it's not in any way "lacking" (it's just not what's perceived as needed support in WvW atm). It's not difficult for a ranger (druid) to keep up prot, regen, vigor, fury and swiftness on 10 allies, all while healing and farting might stacks right and left. Soulbeast and it's stances is slightly less effective on boons and heal but benefit from different advantages (like group evade, groupe stunbreak, group stability... etc.).

    Fixed it for you : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/98220/game-update-notes-february-25-2020#latest , this is not all professions, all I see is the obvious elementalist which doesn't get couple of patches without received nerfs , ranger which just get dumbed down whenever they become optimal for competitive gameplay at the top

    Revenants, guardians and holosmiths have not been touched at all in WvW for the last 1.5 year , holosmith is still the 2019 version for at least 80% of it, condi heralds basically unnerfed and so on

    Does your "claims" invalidate in any way the fact that the stance nerfs came along a global reduction of damage, sustain and boon duration in competitive modes for all professions?

    Yes! because they nerfed the sustain of some profession while others can still facetank damage when the skill cap is reached...or you missed the part with triple rev teams winning tournaments?..I don't know how that sit with your claim of global sustain/dmg nerf, if that would be true..you would not see such degree of stacking

    You should read again the patch note then because the patch note clearly and objectively prove you wrong.

    I read them multiple times and all I see is actual nerfs to some professions and "literal slap on the wrist" for others....when is about elementalist, KABLAM! a 50% CD increase out of the hat from the start, complete removal or 50% decrease in coefficient......then you pick a class like revenant : "might reduced from 3s to 1s" ...such massive nerf..what about jalis nerfs?shortbow ?...nothing of it touched and teams still running triple rev like nobody business.

    You can read the patches too, just explain how exactly I am the one biased here!

    Reducing duration from 3 to 1 is a 66% nerf and 66 >50. Just saying ...

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2021

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    You should read again the patch note then because the patch note clearly and objectively prove you wrong.

    I read them multiple times and all I see is actual nerfs to some professions and "literal slap on the wrist" for others....when is about elementalist, KABLAM! a 50% CD increase out of the hat from the start, complete removal or 50% decrease in coefficient......then you pick a class like revenant : "might reduced from 3s to 1s" ...such massive nerf..what about jalis nerfs?shortbow ?...nothing of it touched and teams still running triple rev like nobody business.

    You can read the patches too, just explain how exactly I am the one biased here!

    You might have missed it:
    Short Bow
    Shattershot: Reduced power coefficient from 0.65 to 0.44. Increased bleeding duration from 3 seconds to 4 seconds.
    Bloodbane Path: Increased cooldown from 3 seconds to 5 seconds.
    Scorchrazor: Reduced power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.01. Reduced burning duration from 4 seconds to 1 second.

    Anyway, some of the weapons skills of the rev have their CD increased by 150% (since you like the big number), some energy cost are increased, most might source are reduced to 6 second duration down from 8/10s... etc. There is also a whole rework of 2 of the revenant's core traitline in this patch, retribution's sustain is reduced by at least 1/3rd, Salvation sustain take an even harder hit, invocation and herald's sustain also take significant hits... etc. Jalis didn't take a nerf? Is there even anything worth nerfing on Jalis? Want the road to deal less damage?

    You are biased because you only look at thing subjectively not objectively. Nothing more nothing else. The elementalist wasn't hit more or harder than other professions, neither was the ranger. Neither the ranger nor the elementalist were some kind of martyrs sacrified on the altar of the gods of tyria for the sake of the other professions' growth in strength in this patch. Every profession got the equal rough treatment, their share of kicks in the kitten.

    You're the one not being objective here despite all the video evidence provided, nerfing down a hydrogen bomb down to tactical nuke ...mean jack at the end of the day, we still have a weapon of mass destruction at our hands. Slaps on the wrist are slaps on the wrist and will never be considered actual nerfs , two of the videos here are after the so called nerfing patch for rev and they are teams winning with triple rev still for a total cound of 4-5 revs in a tournament final.

    You can keep calling me biased all you want, the evidence still points in my direction for being right and you're being...objectively wrong! The difference between an actual nerf and a slap on the wrist is that things stop being used at the top as it's always in ele case where the "meta" changes every so patches...so spare me the "you're main bias" discussion

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Gudradain.3892 said:
    Did I miss a time where Ranger was the meta group support and they had to nerf it? As far as I can remember, Ranger have never been welcomed in organized squad because of their lack of group support so I can't understand that nerf.

    The answer to your question is that ANet reduced damage, sustain and boon duration for some professions in competitive mode in the patch that nerfed those stances. It was merely in line with what they did.

    NB.: While ranger's support isn't optimal in organized squad, it's not in any way "lacking" (it's just not what's perceived as needed support in WvW atm). It's not difficult for a ranger (druid) to keep up prot, regen, vigor, fury and swiftness on 10 allies, all while healing and farting might stacks right and left. Soulbeast and it's stances is slightly less effective on boons and heal but benefit from different advantages (like group evade, groupe stunbreak, group stability... etc.).

    Fixed it for you : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/98220/game-update-notes-february-25-2020#latest , this is not all professions, all I see is the obvious elementalist which doesn't get couple of patches without received nerfs , ranger which just get dumbed down whenever they become optimal for competitive gameplay at the top

    Revenants, guardians and holosmiths have not been touched at all in WvW for the last 1.5 year , holosmith is still the 2019 version for at least 80% of it, condi heralds basically unnerfed and so on

    That's simply not true. All classes got nerfed with that patch. No exceptions. And neither ranger nor ele are in a nearly as bad state as pretty much all your posts might suggest. "No bias", sure ...

    The meta videos, websites say otherwise...AT final matches say otherwise...WvW commanding say otherwise, everything points toward my truth which is still backed up by hard facts...meanwhile forum goers say : "nah you're biased" ....

    Please tell me more about how rangers and eles are fine atm compared to the rest....by fine I mean competitive at the high level..no pve zerging
    [...]

    First you talk about WvW, now PvP. Maybe make clear what you are actually talking about, because there are pretty significant differences between game modes (and even within game modes, especially in WvW)

    Anyway, you just linked videos showcasing weaver winning monthly tournaments (by a player who is not known to be a weaver main, so you can't argue he is only playing the class because he likes it so much). Ofc weaver isn't (and shouldn't be - nothing should) on the same lvl as rev right now, but neither are the other classes. So what was your point again?

    Ranger is indeed lacking when it comes to competitive PvP, and never has been great for WvW zerging (which i believe is intentional design), but it is absolutely fine for WvW roaming. Weaver is also a solid roamer, tempest is meta for "tryhard" small scale grps and both specs also have decent zerg builds.

    There are also other classes that have fallen out of PvP meta, yet i don't see you crying about those. Why could that be?

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    The answer to your question is that ANet reduced damage, sustain and boon duration for some professions in competitive mode in the patch that nerfed those stances. It was merely in line with what they did.

    NB.: While ranger's support isn't optimal in organized squad, it's not in any way "lacking" (it's just not what's perceived as needed support in WvW atm). It's not difficult for a ranger (druid) to keep up prot, regen, vigor, fury and swiftness on 10 allies, all while healing and farting might stacks right and left. Soulbeast and it's stances is slightly less effective on boons and heal but benefit from different advantages (like group evade, groupe stunbreak, group stability... etc.).

    Fixed it for you : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/98220/game-update-notes-february-25-2020#latest , this is not all professions, all I see is the obvious elementalist which doesn't get couple of patches without received nerfs , ranger which just get dumbed down whenever they become optimal for competitive gameplay at the top

    Revenants, guardians and holosmiths have not been touched at all in WvW for the last 1.5 year , holosmith is still the 2019 version for at least 80% of it, condi heralds basically unnerfed and so on

    Does your "claims" invalidate in any way the fact that the stance nerfs came along a global reduction of damage, sustain and boon duration in competitive modes for all professions?

    Yes! because they nerfed the sustain of some profession while others can still facetank damage when the skill cap is reached...or you missed the part with triple rev teams winning tournaments?..I don't know how that sit with your claim of global sustain/dmg nerf, if that would be true..you would not see such degree of stacking

    You should read again the patch note then because the patch note clearly and objectively prove you wrong.

    I read them multiple times and all I see is actual nerfs to some professions and "literal slap on the wrist" for others....when is about elementalist, KABLAM! a 50% CD increase out of the hat from the start, complete removal or 50% decrease in coefficient......then you pick a class like revenant : "might reduced from 3s to 1s" ...such massive nerf..what about jalis nerfs?shortbow ?...nothing of it touched and teams still running triple rev like nobody business.

    You can read the patches too, just explain how exactly I am the one biased here!

    Reducing duration from 3 to 1 is a 66% nerf and 66 >50. Just saying ...

    Yeah reducing might in GW2 2021 is considered a nerf....are you actually serious? The rest of the team is just "farting" might and you think a little uptime nerf can change anything?...The current meta doesn't think so but people on the forum think otherwise...good for you guys I guess

    I am including both PvP and WvW because in the grand scheme of things the "devs" only "slapped a little" professions like revenant and holosmith in PvP only when they can still go around with 2019 raid boss status in WvW where by contrast both ele and ranger have seen nerfs being extended from PvP

    For better or for worst I am facing top 100 players in both game modes...and it's not funny or entertaining and they're all playing some version of revenant and holosayan .

    Gods...barons...they're all running the same broken kitten permaboon 25 might berseker burst Raid boss mode but people on the forum try to tell me that reducing might on a renegade from 3s to 1s constitute a nerf....ok I think I'll rest my case now..honestly

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • UmbraNoctis.1907UmbraNoctis.1907 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2021

    You are the one who keeps throwing arround meaningless numbers like "ele always gets nerfed by 50%", while completely ignoring that the last patch where ele recieved "50% nerfs", actually brought the class back into competitive meta. I just wanted to point out how dumb such statements are.
    Is rev op in PvP, even after multiple nerfs? Absolutely, and nobody here is denying it. But that is an issue with rev in particular and you can't compare a class to rev and then conclude that class is bad, when it is in fact on par or even better than most other classes.

    I also don't get your claims about holo. In PvP it seems to be decent, but far from dominating (kinda like weaver). In WvW nade dmg is still op and flashbang is generally pretty obnoxious, but overall they don't feel that broken. Certainly haven't run into unkillable ones.

    (Fun fact: watching teapot tournament right now and the only class i haven't seen being played is warrior, while every other class has been represented multiple times already. Yet i haven't seen you mention warrior with a single word. But that couldn't possibly be bias, nooo ...)

  • Strider.7849Strider.7849 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2021

    nevermind*

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    You might have missed it:
    Short Bow
    Shattershot: Reduced power coefficient from 0.65 to 0.44. Increased bleeding duration from 3 seconds to 4 seconds.
    Bloodbane Path: Increased cooldown from 3 seconds to 5 seconds.
    Scorchrazor: Reduced power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.01. Reduced burning duration from 4 seconds to 1 second.

    Anyway, some of the weapons skills of the rev have their CD increased by 150% (since you like the big number), some energy cost are increased, most might source are reduced to 6 second duration down from 8/10s... etc. There is also a whole rework of 2 of the revenant's core traitline in this patch, retribution's sustain is reduced by at least 1/3rd, Salvation sustain take an even harder hit, invocation and herald's sustain also take significant hits... etc. Jalis didn't take a nerf? Is there even anything worth nerfing on Jalis? Want the road to deal less damage?

    You are biased because you only look at thing subjectively not objectively. Nothing more nothing else. The elementalist wasn't hit more or harder than other professions, neither was the ranger. Neither the ranger nor the elementalist were some kind of martyrs sacrified on the altar of the gods of tyria for the sake of the other professions' growth in strength in this patch. Every profession got the equal rough treatment, their share of kicks in the kitten.

    You're the one not being objective here despite all the video evidence provided, nerfing down a hydrogen bomb down to tactical nuke ...mean jack at the end of the day, we still have a weapon of mass destruction at our hands. Slaps on the wrist are slaps on the wrist and will never be considered actual nerfs , two of the videos here are after the so called nerfing patch for rev and they are teams winning with triple rev still for a total cound of 4-5 revs in a tournament final.

    You can keep calling me biased all you want, the evidence still points in my direction for being right and you're being...objectively wrong! The difference between an actual nerf and a slap on the wrist is that things stop being used at the top as it's always in ele case where the "meta" changes every so patches...so spare me the "you're main bias" discussion

    Videos and actual gameplay are subjective evidence. Patch notes are objective evidences because they actually list the change made.

    My point (since I can't help stressing it over and over) is that SB stance's nerf was in line with a patch that was meant to nerf boon duration, sustain and damage in competitive modes.

    Your point is that you think your favourite professions were hit harder than other, qualifying other profession's nerfs as "slaps on the wrist" in comparison.

    Nothing in your points invalidate mine. Neither your videos nor your different "empyric evidences". Because ultimately empyric evidence are just showing you a subjective image of the game resulting from a small part of the community's playtime (which is impacted by their skilllevel, mastery of their profession/game mechanisms, health, mood... etc.), far from the objective, written, fact that patch notes are.

    I say that you're not objective, because you lean on subjective evidences.

  • Abyssisis.3971Abyssisis.3971 Member ✭✭✭

    To be fair, ranger stances were never really that good at group support anyway since they were never shared to allies for full duration, had they been, then I could understand nerfing them. Perhaps it would be fair for all classes to have their shareable boons nerfed to 50% duration on allies as well and requires them to slot a specific trait in order to share them?

  • Lazze.9870Lazze.9870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 21, 2021

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    It's not difficult for a ranger (druid) to keep up prot, regen, vigor, fury and swiftness on 10 allies, all while healing and farting might stacks right and left.

    True. In stationary PvE content. Not exactly the topic of the thread, is it?

    As for OP's actual question, Soulbeast stances were never great for group support because of the ally duration, even though Dolyak and Bear are solid skills to share. Most nerfs were done because of roaming builds, boonbeast in particular.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lazze.9870 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    It's not difficult for a ranger (druid) to keep up prot, regen, vigor, fury and swiftness on 10 allies, all while healing and farting might stacks right and left.

    True. In stationary PvE content. Not exactly the topic of the thread, is it?

    As for OP's actual question, Soulbeast stances were never great for group support because of the ally duration, even though Dolyak and Bear are solid skills to share. Most nerfs were done because of roaming builds, boonbeast in particular.

    Do your squad never stop to regroup (allowing you to make 10 player benefit from glyph of the star)? Do you need to be stationary to use call of the wild or simply switching pet (swiftness, fury, might and unblockable)? Do you need to be standing still for your allies to pass through sublime conversion and gain regen? Can't you be on the move to grant boons via commands's trait?

    I do agree that pets and spirits aren't reliable sources of boons in WvW, but everything else work just as fine there as it does in PvE (better, you have choices). Beside, apart from rare ZvZ encounters, WvW is mostly karma train and thus "stationary PvE" (Zerg vs door/wall, Zerg caping, Zerg vs champion... etc.).

  • Lazze.9870Lazze.9870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 21, 2021

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Lazze.9870 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    It's not difficult for a ranger (druid) to keep up prot, regen, vigor, fury and swiftness on 10 allies, all while healing and farting might stacks right and left.

    True. In stationary PvE content. Not exactly the topic of the thread, is it?

    As for OP's actual question, Soulbeast stances were never great for group support because of the ally duration, even though Dolyak and Bear are solid skills to share. Most nerfs were done because of roaming builds, boonbeast in particular.

    Do your squad never stop to regroup (allowing you to make 10 player benefit from glyph of the star)? Do you need to be stationary to use call of the wild or simply switching pet (swiftness, fury, might and unblockable)? Do you need to be standing still for your allies to pass through sublime conversion and gain regen? Can't you be on the move to grant boons via commands's trait?

    I do agree that pets and spirits aren't reliable sources of boons in WvW, but everything else work just as fine there as it does in PvE (better, you have choices). Beside, apart from rare ZvZ encounters, WvW is mostly karma train and thus "stationary PvE" (Zerg vs door/wall, Zerg caping, Zerg vs champion... etc.).

    You listed all those boons and said 10 allies and that is what I'm addressing. That should be obvious. 10 man is only true for Glyph of the Star. If you have any decent expierence playing druid in actual fights at all, you should know that the non-avatar version is way more valueable for cleanses and condition immunity, you don't want to waste your time in avatar mode on channeling the flipside version of it. At most you will use it as you're leaving the mode not to waste astral force. Regardless of that, those boons are already plenty covered by firebrands and scrappers.

    And no, you don't use it while regrouping to stack those boons, and you don't tell your squad to stop moving so they can get the Glyph of the Star boons mid-fight either, for that matter. That's about the dumbest thing you can do. The only exception is if your commander tells the group to bunker up tight. That's about the only time the avatar version could be worth using. And yes, that includes the revive portion of it. Better off using Illusion of Life from a mesmer or the guardian signet.

    Your statement is true for PvE, in WvW it is kinda irrelevant. Not because those boons are not needed and that ranger/druid doesn't have ways to provide them, but because other professions do it better WITH additional boons or other benefits. So lacking when compared to the meta choices is INDEED correct. Because all of those boons are obviously wanted. Even if you randomly gave Druid access to those other boons, the end result is still that its way of pumping out those boons are too clunky compared to the alternatives.

    I play druid/soulbeast in most of my wvw guild's raids. The only boons you reliably give in high level fights are swiftness, regen, some fury and might if you're running Grace of the Land. All of those are covered by the meta classes. Which is why you don't use druid for its boons. Everything other than mightstacking during fights (as opposed to pre-stacking might with Empower) is lackluster compared to the rest. But that comes at the cost of a giant outgoing healing modifier or more immobs. If you bring a druid, it is for CCs (primarily immobs) and secondary support via healing and cleansing. You never rely on its boons. Shared Dolyak Stance from a Soulbeast is more valueable in WvW than any single skill druid has because its effect is unique to ranger and stacks with other damage reduction skills (plus, additional stab is always great).

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 22, 2021

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    You might have missed it:
    Short Bow
    Shattershot: Reduced power coefficient from 0.65 to 0.44. Increased bleeding duration from 3 seconds to 4 seconds.
    Bloodbane Path: Increased cooldown from 3 seconds to 5 seconds.
    Scorchrazor: Reduced power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.01. Reduced burning duration from 4 seconds to 1 second.

    Anyway, some of the weapons skills of the rev have their CD increased by 150% (since you like the big number), some energy cost are increased, most might source are reduced to 6 second duration down from 8/10s... etc. There is also a whole rework of 2 of the revenant's core traitline in this patch, retribution's sustain is reduced by at least 1/3rd, Salvation sustain take an even harder hit, invocation and herald's sustain also take significant hits... etc. Jalis didn't take a nerf? Is there even anything worth nerfing on Jalis? Want the road to deal less damage?

    You are biased because you only look at thing subjectively not objectively. Nothing more nothing else. The elementalist wasn't hit more or harder than other professions, neither was the ranger. Neither the ranger nor the elementalist were some kind of martyrs sacrified on the altar of the gods of tyria for the sake of the other professions' growth in strength in this patch. Every profession got the equal rough treatment, their share of kicks in the kitten.

    You're the one not being objective here despite all the video evidence provided, nerfing down a hydrogen bomb down to tactical nuke ...mean jack at the end of the day, we still have a weapon of mass destruction at our hands. Slaps on the wrist are slaps on the wrist and will never be considered actual nerfs , two of the videos here are after the so called nerfing patch for rev and they are teams winning with triple rev still for a total cound of 4-5 revs in a tournament final.

    You can keep calling me biased all you want, the evidence still points in my direction for being right and you're being...objectively wrong! The difference between an actual nerf and a slap on the wrist is that things stop being used at the top as it's always in ele case where the "meta" changes every so patches...so spare me the "you're main bias" discussion

    Videos and actual gameplay are subjective evidence. Patch notes are objective evidences because they actually list the change made.

    My point (since I can't help stressing it over and over) is that SB stance's nerf was in line with a patch that was meant to nerf boon duration, sustain and damage in competitive modes.

    Your point is that you think your favourite professions were hit harder than other, qualifying other profession's nerfs as "slaps on the wrist" in comparison.

    Nothing in your points invalidate mine. Neither your videos nor your different "empyric evidences". Because ultimately empyric evidence are just showing you a subjective image of the game resulting from a small part of the community's playtime (which is impacted by their skilllevel, mastery of their profession/game mechanisms, health, mood... etc.), far from the objective, written, fact that patch notes are.

    I say that you're not objective, because you lean on subjective evidences.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectrum_Shield

    VS

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak_Stance

    I don't see "boonbeast" anywhere in PvP, although try to remember where are these "nerfs" to holosmith ...I really fail to see the impact of these "nerfs", the build is basically still here...while stance soulbeast is gone
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Explosive_Sword

    Subjective Image?....I only see reality where people instead interpret it in whichever way they like......1+1=2...no matter if other say 1+1=0

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectrum_Shield

    VS

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak_Stance

    I don't see "boonbeast" anywhere in PvP, although try to remember where are these "nerfs" to holosmith ...I really fail to see the impact of these "nerfs", the build is basically still here...while stance soulbeast is gone
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Explosive_Sword

    Wait, is your argument here that holosmith is allowed to have PvP builds at all?

    Because the actual skill you linked here, spectrum shield, isn't even used in the explosive sword build you linked. Who even uses spectrum shield in PvP?
    Yeah, stance soulbeast might be gone in PvP, but soulbeast in general is not. So I don't see your point here, stances are just used as much as holosmith's exceed skills, which is basically not at all.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 22, 2021

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectrum_Shield

    VS

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak_Stance

    I don't see "boonbeast" anywhere in PvP, although try to remember where are these "nerfs" to holosmith ...I really fail to see the impact of these "nerfs", the build is basically still here...while stance soulbeast is gone
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Explosive_Sword

    Wait, is your argument here that holosmith is allowed to have PvP builds at all?

    Because the actual skill you linked here, spectrum shield, isn't even used in the explosive sword build you linked. Who even uses spectrum shield in PvP?
    Yeah, stance soulbeast might be gone in PvP, but soulbeast in general is not. So I don't see your point here, stances are just used as much as holosmith's exceed skills, which is basically not at all.


    I see plenty of soulbeasts here....
    The issue is not the presence of soulbeast or not...it's the skill level of the opponents, a soulbeast is good against...as far as we can see the skill level of the opponent must not be "very high" for the soulbeast to do great

    The skill level of those asking for nerfs on the forum...remains in question.....did you notice the spectrum shield holosmith during the finals?......I can imagine that soulbeast works at gold/silver rank

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"