Wasn't killing more elder dragons a bad thing? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Wasn't killing more elder dragons a bad thing?

Zola.6197Zola.6197 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited March 14, 2021 in Lore

The plot has hinged on the idea that we must find some sort of viable replacement for the elder dragons before they can be killed. Everything from season 2, HoTs, and especially season 3 through PoF to season 4, has centered around this concept. We couldn't let Balthazar absorb Primordus and Jormag's magic, we could let him kill Kralkatorrik either. Aurene had to be old enough/ready to ascend to avoid potentially cataclysmic consequences, and Glint's whole legacy plan revolved around herself, Vlast, and Aurene replacing Kralkatorrik, Zhaitan, and Modremoth respectively. This concept of replacing elder dragons with friendlier ones has been cemented in the story as not just as a good idea, but a necessary one to our survival.

I just can't make sense of the direction the story is taking. If the writers wanted to throw out that idea for the sake of expediently resolving the elder dragon plot, there should have been a more thorough debunking of that besides Jormag, a known manipulator and major antagonist, telling us the balance is "fake" one time. If the answer ends up being "Jormag's persuasion domain has influenced everyone to suddenly disregard the potential world-ending consequences of another elder dragon dying," that seed has been ill planted. All I can think is that the devs simply do not care anymore, disliked being shackled to the replacement/maintaining of The All plot, and just want the elder dragon story over at all costs. As our allies set up a kaiju battle for Primordus and Jormag to kill one another, I am feeling so drained and baffled. Even if none of the elder dragons die by the end of this, why haven't the characters been asking any questions? The Commander? Aurene? Taimi? Anyone?

I have genuinely liked Icebrood Saga, and I gave Champions a chance. I have truly enjoyed the dialogue and character to character conflicts we've seen in the DRMs. I realize the devs are under pressure and crunched for time, especially given everything that has happened to the studio and in the world the last couple years. Seemingly ditching the balance of The All and replacement plot so... quietly and unceremoniously is really ruining my interest in this game. Dealing with that plot thread is the one thing that feels completely crucial to this moment in the story, and absolutely none of the characters are bringing it up. Why? This doesn't feel like clever writing that will blow my mind with a big twist. Whereas I should be compelled by the obviously intentional omission of this discussion, I am instead frustrated and confused and wondering if there is any reason to remain invested in the story. I know there are lots of corners that must be cut right now for the sake of pushing out the expansion (at the expense of The Icebrood Saga), but certainly this was not the corner to cut for time. I realize there's one more chapter left, but my expectations are decidedly low.

I am curious to hear the thoughts of others though, and if I am alone in this feeling. I know there are a few others lamenting the same thing, but I feel like this should bother more people than what I've seen so far.

<13

Comments

  • Sarpan.9074Sarpan.9074 Member ✭✭✭

    I've been wondering the same thing. Downing Kralk was acceptable because we had Aurene to replace him/her/it. But there's no reconciliation with the earlier point that killing off elder dragons would doom us all and the current direction of the story. I'm interested in how they handle this, if at all.

  • Gombie.3860Gombie.3860 Member ✭✭
    edited March 14, 2021

    I think you should save judgement until it's concluded.

    Maybe something bad does* happen and that's the future setting? /Shrug

    But if jormag and prime die then aurene gets all the power right?

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gombie.3860 said:
    I think you should save judgement until it's concluded.

    Maybe something bad doesn't happen and that's the future setting? /Shrug

    But if jormag and prime die then aurene gets all the power right?

    Heh, I thought the setup for a possible GW3 has been obvious since the doric drm - an alternate scenario (compared to EoD) where Jormag wins, the world gets frozen and then our players wakes up centuries later to a new Tyria. The story even makes it more interesting when they start to argue the state of the frozen.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • Gombie.3860Gombie.3860 Member ✭✭

    I'm leaning towards aurene dying in some form or another at the end of the new expansion. But we will see. Being able to predict often makes for a unexciting story.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I've been under the impression that the Spirits of the wild will be the ones to absorb Jormags magic upon death but we've got nothing concrete about that yet.

    But yes I do agree that the lack of discussion on this matter in game does feel like the concept has been abandoned or at least side lined for later despite how important it actually is.
    I'll certainly end up being really annoyed if they just go with Aurine can handle it solo... and I do have a feeling that based on recent awful writing like "joko magic" and "Braham Champion" that they will probably go down that road as an easy out.

    God I hope they don't.. after all these years that this story has been going I would hate to see it just flop at the end like various TV shows and movie series have in recent years.
    Gw2 deserves better than that.

    Yeah, I’m still hoping the Spirits of the Wild will absorb the magic, if Jormag dies. If Primordus dies as well, I’m not so sure.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm under the impression they are going to find a way to channel the Dragon's energies into their Champions after slaying their respective EDs.
    Ryland seems like a pretty level headed guy.
    Braham is a pretty level headed guy if he isn't drunk or what not.
    Commander is Aurene's chosen.

    There is no salvaging a Champion for Mordy or Zhaitan, and besides those two had Champions, but they were extremely corrupt.
    I'm assuming this is going to happen in EoD.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I've been under the impression that the Spirits of the wild will be the ones to absorb Jormags magic upon death but we've got nothing concrete about that yet.

    But yes I do agree that the lack of discussion on this matter in game does feel like the concept has been abandoned or at least side lined for later despite how important it actually is.
    I'll certainly end up being really annoyed if they just go with Aurine can handle it solo... and I do have a feeling that based on recent awful writing like "joko magic" and "Braham Champion" that they will probably go down that road as an easy out.

    God I hope they don't.. after all these years that this story has been going I would hate to see it just flop at the end like various TV shows and movie series have in recent years.
    Gw2 deserves better than that.

    Yeah, I’m still hoping the Spirits of the Wild will absorb the magic, if Jormag dies. If Primordus dies as well, I’m not so sure.

    I'm betting.. hoping more that Primordus will live and we'll finally get to see first hand the destruction and power he can possesses, but considering recent events/writing i'm probably going to be disappointed there XD
    As much as I want him to survive the IBS and get a few big moments in the world I don't have much faith in the writers right now.. even though the prophecy does state that Either Braham or Jormag will die at each others hands.. not that both of them will.
    Plus the death of 1 Elder Dragon can release a cataclysmic level of magic into the world, the deaths of 2 at the same time is unprecedented.. I'd be willing to bet the Spirits may be able to handle one of them dying but 2?.. nah that's a bit out there for me to just accept lol

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    I'm under the impression they are going to find a way to channel the Dragon's energies into their Champions after slaying their respective EDs.
    Ryland seems like a pretty level headed guy.
    Braham is a pretty level headed guy if he isn't drunk or what not.
    Commander is Aurene's chosen.

    There is no salvaging a Champion for Mordy or Zhaitan, and besides those two had Champions, but they were extremely corrupt.
    I'm assuming this is going to happen in EoD.

    I dunno.. the only time something like that has happened is with Kralktorrik but arguably that wasn't because Aurine was the offspring of his previous Champion it was more we expect because Aurine was directly related to him.. and was a Dragon herself.

    Ryland and Braham are neither directly related to their Dragons nor are they Dragons themselves.. champions can become more powerful after the deaths of their Elders as we saw with Tequatl but so far there is nothing that show's a Champion can replace an Elder entirely.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    According to Jormag, the "balance" is a fantasy—another mortal superstition. So who knows what will happen once another ED dies.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    According to Jormag, the "balance" is a fantasy—another mortal superstition. So who knows what will happen once another ED dies.

    Maybe.. but Jormag is selfish and evil, how can you trust it's words when it's actions constantly betray them?

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    According to Jormag, the "balance" is a fantasy—another mortal superstition. So who knows what will happen once another ED dies.

    Maybe.. but Jormag is selfish and evil, how can you trust it's words when it's actions constantly betray them?

    Because Jormag doesn't lie.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    According to Jormag, the "balance" is a fantasy—another mortal superstition. So who knows what will happen once another ED dies.

    Maybe.. but Jormag is selfish and evil, how can you trust it's words when it's actions constantly betray them?

    Because Jormag doesn't lie.

    True.. but it does twist the truth :)

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    Even at that point where Jormag just off-handedly brought this up, why did nobody react to it? Jormag just told everyone "BTW, that balance thing you ran around for for the last couple years? Uhm yeah, forget it, it's BS anyway" And everyone is like "Ah, kay thanks. So, how is the war going?"

    And... It pretty much stayed this way up until now. Dear characters, are you guys okay? Did you get hit one time too many?

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    According to Jormag, the "balance" is a fantasy—another mortal superstition. So who knows what will happen once another ED dies.

    But this doesn't make sense. We stumbled upon the concept in LS2 and 3. It was discovered using scientific simulations, which of course can be wrong, but this is completely different from myths and superstition.
    If we want to talk about myths and mortal superstitions, the first thing I'd scrap is that random norn prophecy. Who even was the prophet and how the heck did they come up with that? It is not like there has been any precedent of a Jormag being killed.
    This, to me, sounds like a fairy tale. Taimi's discoveries on the other hand, not so much.

    Scientific simulations based on Rata Novan simulation technology. It's not the first time the Asura or Taimi were wrong about something.

    You're forgetting something: This is Tyria, not the real world. Magic exists. Prophecies aren't just superstitions here. Wolf even confirmed the Norn Prophecy.
    I'm going to trust Jormag here, since Jormag doesn't lie. The mortal concept about the balance and the All is wrong when it comes to ED death.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    Magic, sure, but magic with science attached.
    Simulations can absolutely be wrong, no doubt. The setup or input can be flawed or based on flawed assumptions, and so can the interpretation.

    However, it seemed to be pretty convincing so far. We did see effects that were in accordance with the simulation.
    We even saved three EDs because of this AND killed a god. (I wonder if Kas has an opinion on this part)

    In comparison, one remark of a dragon that has some personal interest in another dragon being killed... Not quite as convincing.
    Also, the characters did not get the memo from the dev stating somewhere outside the game that Jormag (maybe) doesn't lie directly. They should still think Jormag does lie all the time, because why wouldn't they think that?

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 14, 2021

    One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

    On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

    What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

    >
    So, you know everything there is to know about humans, because you are a human? No more human biology or medical science needed? ^^ Just because it's an Elder Dragon, that doesn't mean it knows everything about Elder Dragons. Granted, it might know more than we do. However, at least in the last cycle, no ED was killed, so the balance issue did most likely not come up back then. Do the EDs really know, or is Jormag also just speculating?

    On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

    Because?
    Also, we saw effects with all the unbound magic and the reality of Tyria getting affected.

    What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

    Hm, this is where I disagree. For storytelling and immersion, it's important to consider what the characters actually know at a given point. And this will at times be different from what the players know, let alone what the authors know. Otherwise, we no longer have "characters", but just plot devices that just further the plot, without actually being involved.

    As far as I'm concerned, you can be totally right about Jormag being omniscient and everything we saw for the last 5 years being weird coincidences, that's not really my issue here. My issue is the non-existent reaction of the characters.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 14, 2021

    @Fenella.2634 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

    >
    So, you know everything there is to know about humans, because you are a human? No more human biology or medical science needed? ^^ Just because it's an Elder Dragon, that doesn't mean it knows everything about Elder Dragons. Granted, it might know more than we do. However, at least in the last cycle, no ED was killed, so the balance issue did most likely not come up back then. Do the EDs really know, or is Jormag also just speculating?

    I'd say humanity has a pretty good grasp about what happens with the human body when it dies.
    An ED doesn't need to know everything about EDs. What happens when one ED dies isn't "everything".
    Also, no ED dying in the previous cycle doesn't mean an ED hasn't died in any of the cycles before the prevous one. We simply don't know how long Jormag, or any of the other ED, besides Aurene, have been around.

    On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

    Because?
    Also, we saw effects with all the unbound magic and the reality of Tyria getting affected.

    Because it's just that, a simulation based on old Asuran knowledge.
    Unbound magic drives some mortals insane and creates magical anomalies. If it is infused with a non-compatible element, it may cause torment to EDs when consumed. But overflowing magic has always been a part of the ED cycle.

    The reality of Tyria was affected because Kralkatorrik started consuming magic everywhere, even in the Mists, opening various connections between Tyria and the Mists. Has nothing to do with an ED dying.

    What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

    Hm, this is where I disagree. For storytelling and immersion, it's important to consider what the characters actually know at a given point. And this will at times be different from what the players know, let alone what the authors know. Otherwise, we no longer have "characters", but just plot devices that just further the plot, without actually being involved.

    As far as I'm concerned, you can be totally right about Jormag being omniscient and everything we saw for the last 5 years being weird coincidences, that's not really my issue here. My issue is the non-existent reaction of the characters.

    I've never claimed Jormag is omniscient, just that we know Jormag never lies. In this case, Jormag knows more than any mortal does.
    Not sure what you mean by "weird coincidences in the last 5 years".
    I'm not arguing about how the character should act given new information, because that is irrelevant to how the All works. I'm only arguing about the All.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 14, 2021

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

    On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

    What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

    This isn't quite true.
    Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wasteland
    Likewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lol
    Zhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.
    And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

    Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.
    So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.
    That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

    Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 14, 2021

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

    On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

    What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

    This isn't quite true.
    Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wasteland
    Likewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lol
    Zhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.
    And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

    Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.
    So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.
    That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

    Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.

    I'm aware that what Jormag wants to preserve isn't our Tyria and that it doesn't care about the mortal races.
    Jormag's plans and intentions for Tyria don't matter here, though. This is about what another ED death means for the All.

    I'm also aware that Jormag wants Primordus to die, so that it can take over.
    This however still means that Tyria isn't destroyed with the death of Primordus. This directly contradicts the "No more dragons are allowed to die"-narrative that has been established due to the simulations in Rata Novus.

    So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 14, 2021

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

    On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

    What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

    This isn't quite true.
    Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wasteland
    Likewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lol
    Zhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.
    And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

    Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.
    So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.
    That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

    Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.

    I'm aware that what Jormag wants to preserve isn't our Tyria and that it doesn't care about the mortal races. I'm also aware that Jormag wants Primordus to die, so that it can take over.
    This however still means that Tyria isn't destroyed with the death of Primordus. This directly contradicts the "No more dragons are allowed to die"-narrative that has been established due to the simulations in Rata Novus.

    So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

    But in what form and to whom is the question.

    Jormag may survive another dragon death and freeze the world in an endless icy tomb but to us mortals that isn't saving Tyria, that's destroying it.
    Jormag can probably live in that sort of world where we mortals cannot, so from Jormag's perspective that's not destroying the world but from ours it is because Jormag's world would be just as much of a lifeless graveyard as Primordus burning wasteland would be.

    So yeah Jormag isn't lying technically but it is twisting the truth to serve it's own agenda.. for us to help Jormag would be to contribute to our own destruction.. so to us Jormag is lying but it also isn't lying from it's own perspective.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

    On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

    What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

    This isn't quite true.
    Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wasteland
    Likewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lol
    Zhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.
    And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

    Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.
    So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.
    That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

    Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.

    I'm aware that what Jormag wants to preserve isn't our Tyria and that it doesn't care about the mortal races. I'm also aware that Jormag wants Primordus to die, so that it can take over.
    This however still means that Tyria isn't destroyed with the death of Primordus. This directly contradicts the "No more dragons are allowed to die"-narrative that has been established due to the simulations in Rata Novus.

    So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

    But in what form and to whom is the question.

    Jormag may survive another dragon death and freeze the world in an endless icy tomb but to us mortals that isn't saving Tyria, that's destroying it.
    Jormag can probably live in that sort of world where we mortals cannot, so from Jormag's perspective that's not destroying the world but from ours it is because Jormag's world would be just as much of a lifeless graveyard as Primordus burning wasteland would be.

    So yeah Jormag isn't lying technically but it is twisting the truth to serve it's own agenda.. for us to help Jormag would be to contribute to our own destruction.. so to us Jormag is lying but it also isn't lying from it's own perspective.

    If mortals are able to still survive on Tyria is completely unrelated to what happens to the All, though.
    If another death doesn't upset the All like the asuran simulation claimed, Jormag isn't lying about the balance being a mortal superstition.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 14, 2021

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

    On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

    What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

    This isn't quite true.
    Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wasteland
    Likewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lol
    Zhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.
    And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

    Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.
    So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.
    That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

    Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.

    I'm aware that what Jormag wants to preserve isn't our Tyria and that it doesn't care about the mortal races. I'm also aware that Jormag wants Primordus to die, so that it can take over.
    This however still means that Tyria isn't destroyed with the death of Primordus. This directly contradicts the "No more dragons are allowed to die"-narrative that has been established due to the simulations in Rata Novus.

    So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

    But in what form and to whom is the question.

    Jormag may survive another dragon death and freeze the world in an endless icy tomb but to us mortals that isn't saving Tyria, that's destroying it.
    Jormag can probably live in that sort of world where we mortals cannot, so from Jormag's perspective that's not destroying the world but from ours it is because Jormag's world would be just as much of a lifeless graveyard as Primordus burning wasteland would be.

    So yeah Jormag isn't lying technically but it is twisting the truth to serve it's own agenda.. for us to help Jormag would be to contribute to our own destruction.. so to us Jormag is lying but it also isn't lying from it's own perspective.

    If mortals are able to still survive on Tyria is completely unrelated to what happens to the All, though.
    If another death doesn't upset the All like the asuran simulation claimed, Jormag isn't lying about the balance being a mortal superstition.

    Every Elder Dragon death upsets the All.. this we at least do know is true.

    The scale of the damage done to Tyria upon these deaths is what we're talking about, what is world ending to us may not be to the remaining dragons.
    The Balance being a mortal superstition is because for us Mortals we don't want to create a world where we can't survive in it.
    It's Jormag's way of saying the world will go on without mortals even if it is severely damaged by another Dragon death, because Jormag doesn't care if Primordus death ends all mortal life on Tyria.

    The balance is a lie to Jormag from Jormag's perspective.. a truth not a lie.
    Aurine and us though wants to maintain a balance in the world so mortals can continue to live in it._
    So to us the balance is a lie.. is a lie, but to Jormag it's not a lie.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 14, 2021

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

    On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

    What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

    This isn't quite true.
    Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wasteland
    Likewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lol
    Zhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.
    And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

    Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.
    So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.
    That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

    Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.

    I'm aware that what Jormag wants to preserve isn't our Tyria and that it doesn't care about the mortal races. I'm also aware that Jormag wants Primordus to die, so that it can take over.
    This however still means that Tyria isn't destroyed with the death of Primordus. This directly contradicts the "No more dragons are allowed to die"-narrative that has been established due to the simulations in Rata Novus.

    So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

    But in what form and to whom is the question.

    Jormag may survive another dragon death and freeze the world in an endless icy tomb but to us mortals that isn't saving Tyria, that's destroying it.
    Jormag can probably live in that sort of world where we mortals cannot, so from Jormag's perspective that's not destroying the world but from ours it is because Jormag's world would be just as much of a lifeless graveyard as Primordus burning wasteland would be.

    So yeah Jormag isn't lying technically but it is twisting the truth to serve it's own agenda.. for us to help Jormag would be to contribute to our own destruction.. so to us Jormag is lying but it also isn't lying from it's own perspective.

    If mortals are able to still survive on Tyria is completely unrelated to what happens to the All, though.
    If another death doesn't upset the All like the asuran simulation claimed, Jormag isn't lying about the balance being a mortal superstition.

    Every Elder Dragon death upsets the All.. this we at least do know is true.

    The scale of the damage done to Tyria upon these deaths is what we're talking about, what is world ending to us may not be to the remaining dragons.
    The Balance being a mortal superstition is because for us Mortals we don't want to create a world where we can't survive in it.
    It's Jormag's way of saying the world will go on without mortals even if it is severely damaged by another Dragon death, because Jormag doesn't care if Primordus death ends all mortal life on Tyria.

    Except the simulation of the balance made it look like Tyria implodes. That's pretty much world ending for everything. This isn't about if mortals can continue to survive. It never has been.

    Reference:
    https://youtu.be/XYY-41xUZLk

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Zola.6197Zola.6197 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

    You keep saying this like it's some in-universe fact the characters understand. Do you think The Commander and Aurene have a twitter account?

    The problem is the characters are not functioning like characters in a story, let alone like characters who were told by one of their greatest enemies the thing they were doing to save everyone was unnecessary. What incentive do they have to accept Jormag's assertions, let alone know for certain their enemy always tells the (warped and manipulated) truth? Not to mention that Guild Wars 2 often leans on concepts like the unreliable narrator.

    And how many times in the past have dev statements and interviews been invalided or contradicted by the game as times passes? Quite a bit. There are even recent statements that say the only thing that's truly canon is what is presented in game; everything else can be taken or left by the current devs. So one tweet doesn't amount to much, frankly.

    This is bad writing, or at least lazy writing. This is not how you write a consistent and compelling fantasy story and world. Addressing the "debunking" of the balance should've been a priority for the characters in-universe, but instead it's ignored to a nonsensical degree.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

    On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

    What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

    This isn't quite true.
    Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wasteland
    Likewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lol
    Zhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.
    And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

    Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.
    So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.
    That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

    Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.

    I'm aware that what Jormag wants to preserve isn't our Tyria and that it doesn't care about the mortal races. I'm also aware that Jormag wants Primordus to die, so that it can take over.
    This however still means that Tyria isn't destroyed with the death of Primordus. This directly contradicts the "No more dragons are allowed to die"-narrative that has been established due to the simulations in Rata Novus.

    So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

    But in what form and to whom is the question.

    Jormag may survive another dragon death and freeze the world in an endless icy tomb but to us mortals that isn't saving Tyria, that's destroying it.
    Jormag can probably live in that sort of world where we mortals cannot, so from Jormag's perspective that's not destroying the world but from ours it is because Jormag's world would be just as much of a lifeless graveyard as Primordus burning wasteland would be.

    So yeah Jormag isn't lying technically but it is twisting the truth to serve it's own agenda.. for us to help Jormag would be to contribute to our own destruction.. so to us Jormag is lying but it also isn't lying from it's own perspective.

    If mortals are able to still survive on Tyria is completely unrelated to what happens to the All, though.
    If another death doesn't upset the All like the asuran simulation claimed, Jormag isn't lying about the balance being a mortal superstition.

    Every Elder Dragon death upsets the All.. this we at least do know is true.

    The scale of the damage done to Tyria upon these deaths is what we're talking about, what is world ending to us may not be to the remaining dragons.
    The Balance being a mortal superstition is because for us Mortals we don't want to create a world where we can't survive in it.
    It's Jormag's way of saying the world will go on without mortals even if it is severely damaged by another Dragon death, because Jormag doesn't care if Primordus death ends all mortal life on Tyria.

    Except the simulation made it look like Tyria implodes. That's pretty much world ending for everything. This isn't about if mortals can continue to survive.

    Reference:
    https://youtu.be/XYY-41xUZLk

    Yea but keep in mind that's an artificial simulation not an accurate representation of what may specifically happen to the world.

    When dragons die we often see their magic violently released into the world usually cracking the ground as it goes though we have not seen those actual cracks in the game world.. not on the surface.
    Tyria may not implode in a giant implosion but it may suffer massive natural disasters etc.. becoming a true hellscape world no mortal could survive in but Gods and Dragons could.. so this is again only an End of the World scenario for us mortals not for beings like Elder Dragons and Gods.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zola.6197 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

    You keep saying this like it's some in-universe fact the characters understand. Do you think The Commander and Aurene have a twitter account?

    The problem is the characters are not functioning like characters in a story, let alone like characters who were told by one of their greatest enemies the thing they were doing to save everyone was unnecessary. What incentive do they have to accept Jormag's assertions, let alone know for certain their enemy always tells the (warped and manipulated) truth? Not to mention that Guild Wars 2 often leans on concepts like the unreliable narrator.

    And how many times in the past have dev statements and interviews been invalided or contradicted by the game as times passes? Quite a bit. There are even recent statements that say the only thing that's truly canon is what is presented in game; everything else can be taken or left by the current devs. So one tweet doesn't amount to much, frankly.

    This is bad writing, or at least lazy writing. This is not how you write a consistent and compelling fantasy story and world. Addressing the "debunking" of the balance should've been a priority for the characters in-universe, but instead it's ignored to a nonsensical degree.

    What the commander or Aurene know doesn‘t matter in this case.
    I‘m also not arguing about how people in the story should act, like stated previously.

    I‘m only arguing about the All and how the mortal simulation is wrong based on the fact that a Narrative Lead gave more information about Jormags being, a person that isn‘t an unreliable narrator.

    As long as no one from Anet states something else about Jormag to retcon, it is canon that Jormag doesn‘t lie. Anything else would be making up your own story due to lazy listening/reading.

    I‘ve kept saying that we know this because we are players and therefore have more knowledge about the Guild Wars world.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

    On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

    What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

    This isn't quite true.
    Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wasteland
    Likewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lol
    Zhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.
    And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

    Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.
    So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.
    That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

    Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.

    I'm aware that what Jormag wants to preserve isn't our Tyria and that it doesn't care about the mortal races. I'm also aware that Jormag wants Primordus to die, so that it can take over.
    This however still means that Tyria isn't destroyed with the death of Primordus. This directly contradicts the "No more dragons are allowed to die"-narrative that has been established due to the simulations in Rata Novus.

    So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

    But in what form and to whom is the question.

    Jormag may survive another dragon death and freeze the world in an endless icy tomb but to us mortals that isn't saving Tyria, that's destroying it.
    Jormag can probably live in that sort of world where we mortals cannot, so from Jormag's perspective that's not destroying the world but from ours it is because Jormag's world would be just as much of a lifeless graveyard as Primordus burning wasteland would be.

    So yeah Jormag isn't lying technically but it is twisting the truth to serve it's own agenda.. for us to help Jormag would be to contribute to our own destruction.. so to us Jormag is lying but it also isn't lying from it's own perspective.

    If mortals are able to still survive on Tyria is completely unrelated to what happens to the All, though.
    If another death doesn't upset the All like the asuran simulation claimed, Jormag isn't lying about the balance being a mortal superstition.

    Every Elder Dragon death upsets the All.. this we at least do know is true.

    The scale of the damage done to Tyria upon these deaths is what we're talking about, what is world ending to us may not be to the remaining dragons.
    The Balance being a mortal superstition is because for us Mortals we don't want to create a world where we can't survive in it.
    It's Jormag's way of saying the world will go on without mortals even if it is severely damaged by another Dragon death, because Jormag doesn't care if Primordus death ends all mortal life on Tyria.

    Except the simulation made it look like Tyria implodes. That's pretty much world ending for everything. This isn't about if mortals can continue to survive.

    Reference:
    https://youtu.be/XYY-41xUZLk

    Yea but keep in mind that's an artificial simulation not an accurate representation of what may specifically happen to the world.

    That‘s the point. The simulation the player character, Taimi and the others take for the truth is wrong.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Zola.6197Zola.6197 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Zola.6197 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

    You keep saying this like it's some in-universe fact the characters understand. Do you think The Commander and Aurene have a twitter account?

    The problem is the characters are not functioning like characters in a story, let alone like characters who were told by one of their greatest enemies the thing they were doing to save everyone was unnecessary. What incentive do they have to accept Jormag's assertions, let alone know for certain their enemy always tells the (warped and manipulated) truth? Not to mention that Guild Wars 2 often leans on concepts like the unreliable narrator.

    And how many times in the past have dev statements and interviews been invalided or contradicted by the game as times passes? Quite a bit. There are even recent statements that say the only thing that's truly canon is what is presented in game; everything else can be taken or left by the current devs. So one tweet doesn't amount to much, frankly.

    This is bad writing, or at least lazy writing. This is not how you write a consistent and compelling fantasy story and world. Addressing the "debunking" of the balance should've been a priority for the characters in-universe, but instead it's ignored to a nonsensical degree.

    What the commander or Aurene know doesn‘t matter in this case.
    I‘m also not arguing about how people in the story should act, like stated previously.

    I‘m only arguing about the All and how the mortal simulation is wrong based on the fact that a Narrative Lead gave more information about Jormags being, a person that isn‘t an unreliable narrator.

    As long as no one from Anet states something else about Jormag to retcon, it is canon that Jormag doesn‘t lie. Anything else would be making up your own story due to lazy listening/reading.

    I‘ve kept saying that we know this because we are players and therefore have more knowledge about the Guild Wars world.

    You're coming off about as nonsensical as the characters right now lol.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

    On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

    What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

    This isn't quite true.
    Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wasteland
    Likewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lol
    Zhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.
    And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

    Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.
    So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.
    That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

    Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.

    I'm aware that what Jormag wants to preserve isn't our Tyria and that it doesn't care about the mortal races. I'm also aware that Jormag wants Primordus to die, so that it can take over.
    This however still means that Tyria isn't destroyed with the death of Primordus. This directly contradicts the "No more dragons are allowed to die"-narrative that has been established due to the simulations in Rata Novus.

    So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

    But in what form and to whom is the question.

    Jormag may survive another dragon death and freeze the world in an endless icy tomb but to us mortals that isn't saving Tyria, that's destroying it.
    Jormag can probably live in that sort of world where we mortals cannot, so from Jormag's perspective that's not destroying the world but from ours it is because Jormag's world would be just as much of a lifeless graveyard as Primordus burning wasteland would be.

    So yeah Jormag isn't lying technically but it is twisting the truth to serve it's own agenda.. for us to help Jormag would be to contribute to our own destruction.. so to us Jormag is lying but it also isn't lying from it's own perspective.

    If mortals are able to still survive on Tyria is completely unrelated to what happens to the All, though.
    If another death doesn't upset the All like the asuran simulation claimed, Jormag isn't lying about the balance being a mortal superstition.

    Every Elder Dragon death upsets the All.. this we at least do know is true.

    The scale of the damage done to Tyria upon these deaths is what we're talking about, what is world ending to us may not be to the remaining dragons.
    The Balance being a mortal superstition is because for us Mortals we don't want to create a world where we can't survive in it.
    It's Jormag's way of saying the world will go on without mortals even if it is severely damaged by another Dragon death, because Jormag doesn't care if Primordus death ends all mortal life on Tyria.

    Except the simulation made it look like Tyria implodes. That's pretty much world ending for everything. This isn't about if mortals can continue to survive.

    Reference:
    https://youtu.be/XYY-41xUZLk

    Yea but keep in mind that's an artificial simulation not an accurate representation of what may specifically happen to the world.

    That‘s the point. The simulation the player character, Taimi and the others take for the truth is wrong.

    Literally maybe but what it represents not so much.

    The All is already unbalanced due to the deaths of Zhaitan and Mordremoth, we know it can't take another death as we saw through the vision the Eye of Janthir showed us.
    Kralkatorriks death at Balthazar's hands ended the world for us in that vision, the video I linked.

    The only reason this didn't happen was because we stopped Balthazar and then killed Kralkatorrik when Aurine was ready to replace him.

    This still leaves us in the same situation, one more dead dragon without a replacement and the world goes to hell for us.

    The thing you're overlooking as well is that the simulation you're talking about involved the deaths of 2 Dragons, not just one of them.
    So I could also say 1 more dragon death = planet hell.. 2 more dragon deaths = planet go boom lol

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zola.6197 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Zola.6197 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

    You keep saying this like it's some in-universe fact the characters understand. Do you think The Commander and Aurene have a twitter account?

    The problem is the characters are not functioning like characters in a story, let alone like characters who were told by one of their greatest enemies the thing they were doing to save everyone was unnecessary. What incentive do they have to accept Jormag's assertions, let alone know for certain their enemy always tells the (warped and manipulated) truth? Not to mention that Guild Wars 2 often leans on concepts like the unreliable narrator.

    And how many times in the past have dev statements and interviews been invalided or contradicted by the game as times passes? Quite a bit. There are even recent statements that say the only thing that's truly canon is what is presented in game; everything else can be taken or left by the current devs. So one tweet doesn't amount to much, frankly.

    This is bad writing, or at least lazy writing. This is not how you write a consistent and compelling fantasy story and world. Addressing the "debunking" of the balance should've been a priority for the characters in-universe, but instead it's ignored to a nonsensical degree.

    What the commander or Aurene know doesn‘t matter in this case.
    I‘m also not arguing about how people in the story should act, like stated previously.

    I‘m only arguing about the All and how the mortal simulation is wrong based on the fact that a Narrative Lead gave more information about Jormags being, a person that isn‘t an unreliable narrator.

    As long as no one from Anet states something else about Jormag to retcon, it is canon that Jormag doesn‘t lie. Anything else would be making up your own story due to lazy listening/reading.

    I‘ve kept saying that we know this because we are players and therefore have more knowledge about the Guild Wars world.

    You're coming off about as nonsensical as the characters right now lol.

    Because I don't ignore the statement of a Narrative Director? Ok then.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

    On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

    What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

    This isn't quite true.
    Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wasteland
    Likewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lol
    Zhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.
    And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

    Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.
    So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.
    That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

    Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.

    I'm aware that what Jormag wants to preserve isn't our Tyria and that it doesn't care about the mortal races. I'm also aware that Jormag wants Primordus to die, so that it can take over.
    This however still means that Tyria isn't destroyed with the death of Primordus. This directly contradicts the "No more dragons are allowed to die"-narrative that has been established due to the simulations in Rata Novus.

    So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

    But in what form and to whom is the question.

    Jormag may survive another dragon death and freeze the world in an endless icy tomb but to us mortals that isn't saving Tyria, that's destroying it.
    Jormag can probably live in that sort of world where we mortals cannot, so from Jormag's perspective that's not destroying the world but from ours it is because Jormag's world would be just as much of a lifeless graveyard as Primordus burning wasteland would be.

    So yeah Jormag isn't lying technically but it is twisting the truth to serve it's own agenda.. for us to help Jormag would be to contribute to our own destruction.. so to us Jormag is lying but it also isn't lying from it's own perspective.

    If mortals are able to still survive on Tyria is completely unrelated to what happens to the All, though.
    If another death doesn't upset the All like the asuran simulation claimed, Jormag isn't lying about the balance being a mortal superstition.

    Every Elder Dragon death upsets the All.. this we at least do know is true.

    The scale of the damage done to Tyria upon these deaths is what we're talking about, what is world ending to us may not be to the remaining dragons.
    The Balance being a mortal superstition is because for us Mortals we don't want to create a world where we can't survive in it.
    It's Jormag's way of saying the world will go on without mortals even if it is severely damaged by another Dragon death, because Jormag doesn't care if Primordus death ends all mortal life on Tyria.

    Except the simulation made it look like Tyria implodes. That's pretty much world ending for everything. This isn't about if mortals can continue to survive.

    Reference:
    https://youtu.be/XYY-41xUZLk

    Yea but keep in mind that's an artificial simulation not an accurate representation of what may specifically happen to the world.

    That‘s the point. The simulation the player character, Taimi and the others take for the truth is wrong.

    Literally maybe but what it represents not so much.

    The All is already unbalanced due to the deaths of Zhaitan and Mordremoth, we know it can't take another death as we saw through the vision the Eye of Janthir showed us.
    Kralkatorriks death at Balthazar's hands ended the world for us in that vision, the video I linked.

    The only reason this didn't happen was because we stopped Balthazar and then killed Kralkatorrik when Aurine was ready to replace him.

    This still leaves us in the same situation, one more dead dragon without a replacement and the world goes to hell for us.

    The thing you're overlooking as well is that the simulation you're talking about involved the deaths of 2 Dragons, not just one of them.
    So I could also say 1 more dragon death = planet hell.. 2 more dragon deaths = planet go boom lol

    Is it even Kralkatorrik's death in that video/vision of the Eye of Janthir? I've always thought that to be Vlast. Looks more similiar to Vlast, too. I don't think the vision is the end of the world, but things that actually happened in PoF.

    I'm not actually overlooking the two dragons thing in the simulation. The simulation quite clearly shows that Jormag and Primordus have to clash. We don't know what will happen if one more ED dies, that's the point why we're having this discussion right now. And why Jormag says that the balance is wrong because the way we look at the All is a mortal misconception.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 14, 2021

    @Zola.6197 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Zola.6197 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Zola.6197 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

    You keep saying this like it's some in-universe fact the characters understand. Do you think The Commander and Aurene have a twitter account?

    The problem is the characters are not functioning like characters in a story, let alone like characters who were told by one of their greatest enemies the thing they were doing to save everyone was unnecessary. What incentive do they have to accept Jormag's assertions, let alone know for certain their enemy always tells the (warped and manipulated) truth? Not to mention that Guild Wars 2 often leans on concepts like the unreliable narrator.

    And how many times in the past have dev statements and interviews been invalided or contradicted by the game as times passes? Quite a bit. There are even recent statements that say the only thing that's truly canon is what is presented in game; everything else can be taken or left by the current devs. So one tweet doesn't amount to much, frankly.

    This is bad writing, or at least lazy writing. This is not how you write a consistent and compelling fantasy story and world. Addressing the "debunking" of the balance should've been a priority for the characters in-universe, but instead it's ignored to a nonsensical degree.

    What the commander or Aurene know doesn‘t matter in this case.
    I‘m also not arguing about how people in the story should act, like stated previously.

    I‘m only arguing about the All and how the mortal simulation is wrong based on the fact that a Narrative Lead gave more information about Jormags being, a person that isn‘t an unreliable narrator.

    As long as no one from Anet states something else about Jormag to retcon, it is canon that Jormag doesn‘t lie. Anything else would be making up your own story due to lazy listening/reading.

    I‘ve kept saying that we know this because we are players and therefore have more knowledge about the Guild Wars world.

    You're coming off about as nonsensical as the characters right now lol.

    Because I don't ignore the statement of a Narrative Director? Ok then.

    No, because you're being obtuse.

    The subject of this thread isn't about meta knowledge on twitter or how accurate Taimi's simulation may have been. It's specifically about the characters' knowledge and how they are not operating according to that knowledge, and how that means the narrative team (in my opinion) are not doing their due diligence to the characters and setting. The fact that a dev posted "Jormag doesn't lie" on twitter does not account for anything happening in-universe. The Commander, Aurene, etc, are people living in the world of Tyria and have no reason to believe that "Jormag doesn't lie." And from what they have witnessed through myriad occurrences in the story they've all lived through - particularly in the personal story and Icebrood Saga - is that Jormag is dangerous, persuasive, manipulative, and wants to corrupt others in their image. They are an evil and self-serving super powered entity. "Jormag doesn't lie" sitting on twitter doesn't change those facts as the characters have experienced them. If you can't recognize that, you don't come off as someone who cares much for the story, the character, the setting or lore in the first place.

    It doesn't matter if "Jormag doesn't lie" is true - even if you're being obtuse about the fact that Jormag's "truth" has thus far been shown to consistently be perverted by their terms. It doesn't matter if "Taimi's simulation was wrong and we've been incorrect the whole time." If the writing is doing it's job, the characters have to journey to that conclusion in a way we, the audience, sees; the characters don't just throw out all their gained knowledge and experiences based on a tweet about an idea that hasn't even been properly established in universe. That's nonsense.

    The things you're bringing up are only tangentially related to the aim of this thread. If you want to fuse how an out-of-game tweet saying "Jormag doesn't lie" is indicative of quality writing and good "devmanship," then by all means make that post. As of right now you just come off as someone who's been sipping that Jormag whisper juice. :P

    I brought up the Jormag thing because you spoke about "seemingly ditching the balance of The All and replacement plot", when Jormag actually mentions that exact plotpoint and was never ditched.
    I added meta-knowledge to it, because that meta-knowledge is still part of the universe and a part of Jormag. Ignoring that fact still doesn't change what is actually happening with the All.

    If your aim with this thread is to just complain about narrative and not actually discuss the lore, then fine. I'm not going to answer again, as you've clearly shown you're not open to actually discuss the plotpoint about the All you've mentioned yourself in the starting post and resorted to personal attacks, such as calling me "obtuse" or "sipping that Jormag whisper juice". You should have mentioned that you don't allow any lore that you yourself don't deem to be "worthy" in this thread, even if it comes from an official source that is the Narrative Lead.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

    On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

    What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

    This isn't quite true.
    Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wasteland
    Likewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lol
    Zhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.
    And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

    Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.
    So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.
    That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

    Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.

    I'm aware that what Jormag wants to preserve isn't our Tyria and that it doesn't care about the mortal races. I'm also aware that Jormag wants Primordus to die, so that it can take over.
    This however still means that Tyria isn't destroyed with the death of Primordus. This directly contradicts the "No more dragons are allowed to die"-narrative that has been established due to the simulations in Rata Novus.

    So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

    But in what form and to whom is the question.

    Jormag may survive another dragon death and freeze the world in an endless icy tomb but to us mortals that isn't saving Tyria, that's destroying it.
    Jormag can probably live in that sort of world where we mortals cannot, so from Jormag's perspective that's not destroying the world but from ours it is because Jormag's world would be just as much of a lifeless graveyard as Primordus burning wasteland would be.

    So yeah Jormag isn't lying technically but it is twisting the truth to serve it's own agenda.. for us to help Jormag would be to contribute to our own destruction.. so to us Jormag is lying but it also isn't lying from it's own perspective.

    If mortals are able to still survive on Tyria is completely unrelated to what happens to the All, though.
    If another death doesn't upset the All like the asuran simulation claimed, Jormag isn't lying about the balance being a mortal superstition.

    Every Elder Dragon death upsets the All.. this we at least do know is true.

    The scale of the damage done to Tyria upon these deaths is what we're talking about, what is world ending to us may not be to the remaining dragons.
    The Balance being a mortal superstition is because for us Mortals we don't want to create a world where we can't survive in it.
    It's Jormag's way of saying the world will go on without mortals even if it is severely damaged by another Dragon death, because Jormag doesn't care if Primordus death ends all mortal life on Tyria.

    Except the simulation made it look like Tyria implodes. That's pretty much world ending for everything. This isn't about if mortals can continue to survive.

    Reference:
    https://youtu.be/XYY-41xUZLk

    Yea but keep in mind that's an artificial simulation not an accurate representation of what may specifically happen to the world.

    That‘s the point. The simulation the player character, Taimi and the others take for the truth is wrong.

    Literally maybe but what it represents not so much.

    The All is already unbalanced due to the deaths of Zhaitan and Mordremoth, we know it can't take another death as we saw through the vision the Eye of Janthir showed us.
    Kralkatorriks death at Balthazar's hands ended the world for us in that vision, the video I linked.

    The only reason this didn't happen was because we stopped Balthazar and then killed Kralkatorrik when Aurine was ready to replace him.

    This still leaves us in the same situation, one more dead dragon without a replacement and the world goes to hell for us.

    The thing you're overlooking as well is that the simulation you're talking about involved the deaths of 2 Dragons, not just one of them.
    So I could also say 1 more dragon death = planet hell.. 2 more dragon deaths = planet go boom lol

    Is it even Kralkatorrik's death in that video/vision of the Eye of Janthir? I've always thought that to be Vlast. Looks more similiar to Vlast, too. I don't think the vision is the end of the world, but things that actually happened in PoF.

    I'm not actually overlooking the two dragons thing in the simulation. The simulation quite clearly shows that Jormag and Primordus have to clash. We don't know what will happen if one more ED dies, that's the point why we're having this discussion right now. And why Jormag says that the balance is wrong because the way we look at the All is a mortal misconception.

    Vlast was nowhere near that big and the Dragon roars were the same as Kralkatorriks, it's definitely Kralk in the vision.
    It's definitely not depicting the events of PoF either since the world was never engulfed in fire and ruin as shown in the vison.
    The vision was showing what Balthazar's intentions were (killing Krlkatorrik) and the result of that action (bringing the world to ruin) I believe there is even dialogue in one mission with him where we try to warn him about what his actions would bring on the world and he just didn't care.

    From everything we went through with Krlkatorrik and Balthazar I would have to disagree about not knowing or at least having a good idea of what would happen if one more elder died.
    All the evidence we have suggests the world would be severely damaged and would likely be uninhabitable for mortals.. and if both of them die it would be far worse.

    Jormag's words simply cannot be trusted because of everything we know about it, it always has it's own agenda and everything it does and says is to further that agenda.
    It does not care about mortals, and the only reason it tried to appear like it did is because Aurine cares about mortals.
    Jormag sees us specifically as both a hinderance and a tool to be used to get to Aurine, that's the only reason it doesn't hunt us down and exterminate us which it has more than enough power to do.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

    On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

    What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

    This isn't quite true.
    Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wasteland
    Likewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lol
    Zhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.
    And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

    Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.
    So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.
    That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

    Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.

    I'm aware that what Jormag wants to preserve isn't our Tyria and that it doesn't care about the mortal races. I'm also aware that Jormag wants Primordus to die, so that it can take over.
    This however still means that Tyria isn't destroyed with the death of Primordus. This directly contradicts the "No more dragons are allowed to die"-narrative that has been established due to the simulations in Rata Novus.

    So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

    But in what form and to whom is the question.

    Jormag may survive another dragon death and freeze the world in an endless icy tomb but to us mortals that isn't saving Tyria, that's destroying it.
    Jormag can probably live in that sort of world where we mortals cannot, so from Jormag's perspective that's not destroying the world but from ours it is because Jormag's world would be just as much of a lifeless graveyard as Primordus burning wasteland would be.

    So yeah Jormag isn't lying technically but it is twisting the truth to serve it's own agenda.. for us to help Jormag would be to contribute to our own destruction.. so to us Jormag is lying but it also isn't lying from it's own perspective.

    If mortals are able to still survive on Tyria is completely unrelated to what happens to the All, though.
    If another death doesn't upset the All like the asuran simulation claimed, Jormag isn't lying about the balance being a mortal superstition.

    Every Elder Dragon death upsets the All.. this we at least do know is true.

    The scale of the damage done to Tyria upon these deaths is what we're talking about, what is world ending to us may not be to the remaining dragons.
    The Balance being a mortal superstition is because for us Mortals we don't want to create a world where we can't survive in it.
    It's Jormag's way of saying the world will go on without mortals even if it is severely damaged by another Dragon death, because Jormag doesn't care if Primordus death ends all mortal life on Tyria.

    Except the simulation made it look like Tyria implodes. That's pretty much world ending for everything. This isn't about if mortals can continue to survive.

    Reference:
    https://youtu.be/XYY-41xUZLk

    Yea but keep in mind that's an artificial simulation not an accurate representation of what may specifically happen to the world.

    That‘s the point. The simulation the player character, Taimi and the others take for the truth is wrong.

    Literally maybe but what it represents not so much.

    The All is already unbalanced due to the deaths of Zhaitan and Mordremoth, we know it can't take another death as we saw through the vision the Eye of Janthir showed us.
    Kralkatorriks death at Balthazar's hands ended the world for us in that vision, the video I linked.

    The only reason this didn't happen was because we stopped Balthazar and then killed Kralkatorrik when Aurine was ready to replace him.

    This still leaves us in the same situation, one more dead dragon without a replacement and the world goes to hell for us.

    The thing you're overlooking as well is that the simulation you're talking about involved the deaths of 2 Dragons, not just one of them.
    So I could also say 1 more dragon death = planet hell.. 2 more dragon deaths = planet go boom lol

    Is it even Kralkatorrik's death in that video/vision of the Eye of Janthir? I've always thought that to be Vlast. Looks more similiar to Vlast, too. I don't think the vision is the end of the world, but things that actually happened in PoF.

    I'm not actually overlooking the two dragons thing in the simulation. The simulation quite clearly shows that Jormag and Primordus have to clash. We don't know what will happen if one more ED dies, that's the point why we're having this discussion right now. And why Jormag says that the balance is wrong because the way we look at the All is a mortal misconception.

    Vlast was nowhere near that big and the Dragon roars were the same as Kralkatorriks, it's definitely Kralk in the vision.
    It's definitely not depicting the events of PoF either since the world was never engulfed in fire and ruin as shown in the vison.
    The vision was showing what Balthazar's intentions were (killing Krlkatorrik) and the result of that action (bringing the world to ruin) I believe there is even dialogue in one mission with him where we try to warn him about what his actions would bring on the world and he just didn't care.

    But Kralkatorrik is even more massive the the dragon in the vision. There were also plenty of places in fire in the Crystal Oasis, and the destroyed pyramid looks similiar to the one in Maculate Fringe. I'm pretty sure that vision is about things that already happened, not things that would have happened.
    The dialoge in that one mission was more related to the killing of any EDs, after the simulation with Jormag and Primordus. Since that's what our ingame character believes, that killing more EDs will result in the destruction of Tyria.

    From everything we went through with Krlkatorrik and Balthazar I would have to disagree about not knowing or at least having a good idea of what would happen if one more elder died.
    All the evidence we have suggests the world would be severely damaged and would likely be uninhabitable for mortals.. and if both of them die it would be far worse.

    There isn't actualy much evidence aside from an overflow of magic that suggests the world would fall to ruin. Most of the Tyria-warping damage was done by Kralkatorrik when he started to enter the Mists and consume without holding back.

    Jormag's words simply cannot be trusted because of everything we know about it, it always has it's own agenda and everything it does and says is to further that agenda.
    It does not care about mortals, and the only reason it tried to appear like it did is because Aurine cares about mortals.
    Jormag sees us specifically as both a hinderance and a tool to be used to get to Aurine, that's the only reason it doesn't hunt us down and exterminate us which it has more than enough power to do.

    Like mentioned before, I agree with this part. Especially so if we take on the role of the commander. But we still have to consider things that we learn about the lore, even if we don't see them through the commander's eyes.

    Nonetheless, this will also be my last answer to you, since OP doesn't seem to like it very much to discuss lore that isn't directly referenced in-game.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Zola.6197Zola.6197 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Zola.6197 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Zola.6197 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Zola.6197 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

    You keep saying this like it's some in-universe fact the characters understand. Do you think The Commander and Aurene have a twitter account?

    The problem is the characters are not functioning like characters in a story, let alone like characters who were told by one of their greatest enemies the thing they were doing to save everyone was unnecessary. What incentive do they have to accept Jormag's assertions, let alone know for certain their enemy always tells the (warped and manipulated) truth? Not to mention that Guild Wars 2 often leans on concepts like the unreliable narrator.

    And how many times in the past have dev statements and interviews been invalided or contradicted by the game as times passes? Quite a bit. There are even recent statements that say the only thing that's truly canon is what is presented in game; everything else can be taken or left by the current devs. So one tweet doesn't amount to much, frankly.

    This is bad writing, or at least lazy writing. This is not how you write a consistent and compelling fantasy story and world. Addressing the "debunking" of the balance should've been a priority for the characters in-universe, but instead it's ignored to a nonsensical degree.

    What the commander or Aurene know doesn‘t matter in this case.
    I‘m also not arguing about how people in the story should act, like stated previously.

    I‘m only arguing about the All and how the mortal simulation is wrong based on the fact that a Narrative Lead gave more information about Jormags being, a person that isn‘t an unreliable narrator.

    As long as no one from Anet states something else about Jormag to retcon, it is canon that Jormag doesn‘t lie. Anything else would be making up your own story due to lazy listening/reading.

    I‘ve kept saying that we know this because we are players and therefore have more knowledge about the Guild Wars world.

    You're coming off about as nonsensical as the characters right now lol.

    Because I don't ignore the statement of a Narrative Director? Ok then.

    No, because you're being obtuse.

    The subject of this thread isn't about meta knowledge on twitter or how accurate Taimi's simulation may have been. It's specifically about the characters' knowledge and how they are not operating according to that knowledge, and how that means the narrative team (in my opinion) are not doing their due diligence to the characters and setting. The fact that a dev posted "Jormag doesn't lie" on twitter does not account for anything happening in-universe. The Commander, Aurene, etc, are people living in the world of Tyria and have no reason to believe that "Jormag doesn't lie." And from what they have witnessed through myriad occurrences in the story they've all lived through - particularly in the personal story and Icebrood Saga - is that Jormag is dangerous, persuasive, manipulative, and wants to corrupt others in their image. They are an evil and self-serving super powered entity. "Jormag doesn't lie" sitting on twitter doesn't change those facts as the characters have experienced them. If you can't recognize that, you don't come off as someone who cares much for the story, the character, the setting or lore in the first place.

    It doesn't matter if "Jormag doesn't lie" is true - even if you're being obtuse about the fact that Jormag's "truth" has thus far been shown to consistently be perverted by their terms. It doesn't matter if "Taimi's simulation was wrong and we've been incorrect the whole time." If the writing is doing it's job, the characters have to journey to that conclusion in a way we, the audience, sees; the characters don't just throw out all their gained knowledge and experiences based on a tweet about an idea that hasn't even been properly established in universe. That's nonsense.

    The things you're bringing up are only tangentially related to the aim of this thread. If you want to fuse how an out-of-game tweet saying "Jormag doesn't lie" is indicative of quality writing and good "devmanship," then by all means make that post. As of right now you just come off as someone who's been sipping that Jormag whisper juice. :P

    I brought up the Jormag thing because you spoke about "seemingly ditching the balance of The All and replacement plot", when Jormag actually mentions that exact plotpoint and was never ditched.
    I added meta-knowledge to it, because that meta-knowledge is still part of the universe and a part of Jormag. Ignoring that fact still doesn't change what is actually happening with the All.

    If your aim with this thread is to just complain about narrative and not actually discuss the lore, then fine. I'm not going to answer again, as you've clearly shown you're not open to actually discuss the plotpoint about the All you've mentioned yourself in the starting post and resorted to personal attacks, such as calling me "obtuse" or "sipping that Jormag whisper juice". You should have mentioned that you don't allow any lore that you yourself don't deem to be "worthy" in this thread, even if it comes from an official source that is the Narrative Lead.

    One line from Jormag is the not the "due diligence" to throw away several years of plot build up. It makes no sense for narratively for that to be the fulcrum on which the entire franchise shifts.

    But I can see that you have no interest in actual logical storytelling, so I am likewise going the "do not interact" route.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

    On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

    What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

    This isn't quite true.
    Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wasteland
    Likewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lol
    Zhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.
    And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

    Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.
    So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.
    That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

    Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.

    I'm aware that what Jormag wants to preserve isn't our Tyria and that it doesn't care about the mortal races. I'm also aware that Jormag wants Primordus to die, so that it can take over.
    This however still means that Tyria isn't destroyed with the death of Primordus. This directly contradicts the "No more dragons are allowed to die"-narrative that has been established due to the simulations in Rata Novus.

    So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

    But in what form and to whom is the question.

    Jormag may survive another dragon death and freeze the world in an endless icy tomb but to us mortals that isn't saving Tyria, that's destroying it.
    Jormag can probably live in that sort of world where we mortals cannot, so from Jormag's perspective that's not destroying the world but from ours it is because Jormag's world would be just as much of a lifeless graveyard as Primordus burning wasteland would be.

    So yeah Jormag isn't lying technically but it is twisting the truth to serve it's own agenda.. for us to help Jormag would be to contribute to our own destruction.. so to us Jormag is lying but it also isn't lying from it's own perspective.

    If mortals are able to still survive on Tyria is completely unrelated to what happens to the All, though.
    If another death doesn't upset the All like the asuran simulation claimed, Jormag isn't lying about the balance being a mortal superstition.

    Every Elder Dragon death upsets the All.. this we at least do know is true.

    The scale of the damage done to Tyria upon these deaths is what we're talking about, what is world ending to us may not be to the remaining dragons.
    The Balance being a mortal superstition is because for us Mortals we don't want to create a world where we can't survive in it.
    It's Jormag's way of saying the world will go on without mortals even if it is severely damaged by another Dragon death, because Jormag doesn't care if Primordus death ends all mortal life on Tyria.

    Except the simulation made it look like Tyria implodes. That's pretty much world ending for everything. This isn't about if mortals can continue to survive.

    Reference:
    https://youtu.be/XYY-41xUZLk

    Yea but keep in mind that's an artificial simulation not an accurate representation of what may specifically happen to the world.

    That‘s the point. The simulation the player character, Taimi and the others take for the truth is wrong.

    Literally maybe but what it represents not so much.

    The All is already unbalanced due to the deaths of Zhaitan and Mordremoth, we know it can't take another death as we saw through the vision the Eye of Janthir showed us.
    Kralkatorriks death at Balthazar's hands ended the world for us in that vision, the video I linked.

    The only reason this didn't happen was because we stopped Balthazar and then killed Kralkatorrik when Aurine was ready to replace him.

    This still leaves us in the same situation, one more dead dragon without a replacement and the world goes to hell for us.

    The thing you're overlooking as well is that the simulation you're talking about involved the deaths of 2 Dragons, not just one of them.
    So I could also say 1 more dragon death = planet hell.. 2 more dragon deaths = planet go boom lol

    Is it even Kralkatorrik's death in that video/vision of the Eye of Janthir? I've always thought that to be Vlast. Looks more similiar to Vlast, too. I don't think the vision is the end of the world, but things that actually happened in PoF.

    I'm not actually overlooking the two dragons thing in the simulation. The simulation quite clearly shows that Jormag and Primordus have to clash. We don't know what will happen if one more ED dies, that's the point why we're having this discussion right now. And why Jormag says that the balance is wrong because the way we look at the All is a mortal misconception.

    Couple things. The Vision shows that the world ending when Balthazar kills Kralkatorrik, with the dragon spear. The world begins to unravel etc. That’s after a single dragon’s death.

    Taimi simulation shows the outcome of if two dragons die, which means explosion.

    There is even the conversation with Ogden.

    Ogden Stonehealer: There are varied theories on what it means, but I believe it refers to the natural balance of magic.
    Ogden Stonehealer: Too much magic, and the world spins out of control. Too little, and it crumbles into darkness.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Nonetheless, this will also be my last answer to you, since OP doesn't seem to like it very much to discuss lore that isn't directly referenced in-game.

    Alright man no worries, I enjoyed our chat ^^
    Take care.

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 You might have misunderstood the thread. It's totally possible to make the current story lore-friendly. There are options to make everything fit, to make the balance a non-issue in LS5 without ret-conning. Actually, I think the entire LS5 actually has a great plot. It's just delivered in such a rushed manner that it's hard to appreciate it and in cases like the current chapter, the delivery seems to create really awful side-effects. Take the same story and let it play out in a real saga, like it was maybe planned originally, and we might not have to have this argument.

    However, this discussion is about storytelling, not about the All. And I think this might be why the thread was originally not created in the lore forums? I'm pretty sure it was moved here later on.

    @anninke.7469 Same. If it weren't also for the social aspect, I'd be mostly here for the story and lore (and I'm also a bit salty about Laranthir being forgotten). The story has had its ups and downs over time, but this carelessness right now from the devs is really concerning. I hope EoD will even be able to fix some of this mess. I hope it's not too late already.

  • Zola.6197Zola.6197 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 14, 2021

    Yes, I originally posted this in the Living World subforum to specifically discuss the storytelling aspects of Chapter 3: Balance. For whatever reason the mods decided to move it to the Lore subforum.

  • @Raknar.4735 said:
    Except the simulation of the balance made it look like Tyria implodes. That's pretty much world ending for everything. This isn't about if mortals can continue to survive. It never has been.

    Reference:
    https://youtu.be/XYY-41xUZLk

    I would like to remind everyone that the input of this simulation was quite literally: what happens if we use omadd's device to force Primordus and Jormag "together" on the level of eternal alchemy (The All?) so their energies just cancel each other out.

    And myself I am still not sure why literally everyone jumped the train of "this means we can't kill more EDs" (I suppose taimi said so, and commander followed?)

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    The need for multiple Elder Dragon replacements was only necessary because we were working within the ideals of the system as it was, which needed 6 Elder Dragons to control the magic. Aurene fundamentally changed the system with her unique abilities.

    Something which is never actually brought up in the story, let alone confirmed. Even if Aurene can handle different types of magic, that doesn't account for quantity or more importantly, the stability of The All itself which is more than merely magic.

    Besides that, the other Elder Dragons were fully capable of housing the other ED's magic, they were just harmed by it via Torment - and while Aurene can handle conflicting magic to an extent, in the Guild Chat following War Eternal, Tom Abernathy established that Aurene could suffer from Torment if she isn't careful - and replacing all six Elder Dragons alone would certainly be "not being careful"..

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    According to Jormag, the "balance" is a fantasy—another mortal superstition. So who knows what will happen once another ED dies.

    Maybe.. but Jormag is selfish and evil, how can you trust it's words when it's actions constantly betray them?

    Because Jormag doesn't lie.

    It should be noted that Jormag doesn't say Balance doesn't exist. In fact, in the recent release, Jormag talks about balance as if it is indeed a thing:

    Jormag through Bangar: The "balance" is a fantasy—another mortal superstition. Primordus will lay waste to this world. And you are not ready.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Primordus_Rising

    Fantasies and superstitions can still turn out true, if only to a degree.

    Jormag: Your balance that chains me to an animal. No thought! No reason! Imagine MY MIND, bound for all eternity to THAT!
    Aurene: Th-the balance is needed.
    Jormag: The balance will kill us all!

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jormag's_Madness

    Here, Jormag seems to speak of balance as an actual thing, and outright hates it and wants to destroy it (by destroying Primordus).

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

    Aurene is part of that whole simulation too, and knows far more about the function of Tyria than the Commander does, and still goes on about balance.

    I'm less inclined to trust the words of a being of pure manipulation, who's own words seem conflicting. Jormag may not lie, but they also tell incomplete truths.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Vlast was nowhere near that big and the Dragon roars were the same as Kralkatorriks, it's definitely Kralk in the vision.

    The vision by the Eye of Janthir is showing Vlast. Kralkatorrik is nowhere near that small, nor that gold/yellow, and Balthazar was going after Vlast first so as to take down Kralkatorrik. The breaking of the world was more a dramaticizing of Balthazar's actions in the desert while going after Kralkatorrik. Also pretty sure devs confirmed it to be Vlast.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Couple things. The Vision shows that the world ending when Balthazar kills Kralkatorrik, with the dragon spear. The world begins to unravel etc. That’s after a single dragon’s death.

    Balthazar was never after the spear. That was simply the Commander and co's misinterpretation from Vlast's fears. There were hints of the Warbeast's creation on our way to Glint's Lair, which foreshadowed the true purpose of going after Vlast.

    Unless that cinematic is another case of "the plot changed a lot between drawing board/LW development and release" like with HoT and the in-game cinematic reflecting next to nothing of the main HoT plot (like pre-corruption evil Faolain).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.