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Wasn't killing more elder dragons a bad thing?

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  • Touchme.1097Touchme.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    The writers missed an opportunity with Vlast, they should have never killed him off. I don't think Aurene itself is enough to contain all the magic released by the death of the other elder dragons and if she ends up being corrupted by torment Tyria would be doomed. It's inevitable, for the good progression of the lore, for Aurene to give birth to her off springs . All this burden about containment of magic shouldn't weight entirely on her shoulders alone.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    According to Jormag, the "balance" is a fantasy—another mortal superstition. So who knows what will happen once another ED dies.

    Maybe.. but Jormag is selfish and evil, how can you trust it's words when it's actions constantly betray them?

    Because Jormag doesn't lie.

    It should be noted that Jormag doesn't say Balance doesn't exist. In fact, in the recent release, Jormag talks about balance as if it is indeed a thing:

    Jormag through Bangar: The "balance" is a fantasy—another mortal superstition. Primordus will lay waste to this world. And you are not ready.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Primordus_Rising

    Fantasies and superstitions can still turn out true, if only to a degree.

    Jormag: Your balance that chains me to an animal. No thought! No reason! Imagine MY MIND, bound for all eternity to THAT!
    Aurene: Th-the balance is needed.
    Jormag: The balance will kill us all!

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jormag's_Madness

    Here, Jormag seems to speak of balance as an actual thing, and outright hates it and wants to destroy it (by destroying Primordus).

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

    Aurene is part of that whole simulation too, and knows far more about the function of Tyria than the Commander does, and still goes on about balance.

    I'm less inclined to trust the words of a being of pure manipulation, who's own words seem conflicting. Jormag may not lie, but they also tell incomplete truths.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Vlast was nowhere near that big and the Dragon roars were the same as Kralkatorriks, it's definitely Kralk in the vision.

    The vision by the Eye of Janthir is showing Vlast. Kralkatorrik is nowhere near that small, nor that gold/yellow, and Balthazar was going after Vlast first so as to take down Kralkatorrik. The breaking of the world was more a dramaticizing of Balthazar's actions in the desert while going after Kralkatorrik. Also pretty sure devs confirmed it to be Vlast.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Couple things. The Vision shows that the world ending when Balthazar kills Kralkatorrik, with the dragon spear. The world begins to unravel etc. That’s after a single dragon’s death.

    Balthazar was never after the spear. That was simply the Commander and co's misinterpretation from Vlast's fears. There were hints of the Warbeast's creation on our way to Glint's Lair, which foreshadowed the true purpose of going after Vlast.

    Unless that cinematic is another case of "the plot changed a lot between drawing board/LW development and release" like with HoT and the in-game cinematic reflecting next to nothing of the main HoT plot (like pre-corruption evil Faolain).

    I was basing the dragon spear strictly on the cinematic itself, which shows the dragon being stabbed, which would indicate the dragon spear being used, which perhaps was the original intention.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Posting IRL that "Jormag Doesn't Lie" was probably one of the stupidest thing this current iteration of Arenanet has done, at least in my opinion, and exceeded perhaps only by the decision to actually make "Jormag Doesn't Lie" an actual aspect of canon. Everyone lies, mortal or not, so what makes Jormag so special that this doesn't apply to it? What about its nature physically prevents Jormag from telling a lie or what about its..."saintly" personality causes it to just find lying unthinkable? WHY IS THIS A THING?! Such terrible writing.

    I think the better way to describe Jormag is that she does not lie but she never tells the full truth.

    For example, Jormag maybe saying killing Primordus or herself may not be a issue for the world but that is probably within the perspective that it is not a issue for her and Aurene since as Elder Dragons they may not suffer the effects of the world falling into chaos due to overload of magic energy while the other races will.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2021

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I was basing the dragon spear strictly on the cinematic itself, which shows the dragon being stabbed, which would indicate the dragon spear being used, which perhaps was the original intention.

    I get that. I was saying that unless Balthazar's plans and actions got rewritten, there's obvious hints of the warbeast pretty early on in PoF. Forged were pretty much right outside Glint's Lair, if they wanted in they probably would have been working on that instead of mining branded crystals to create the warbeast tail we see in that very instance. In fact, forgot about this but in Night of Fires is when we get our very first hints of the warbeast with the Forged Cart holding branded crystals and the Forged Plate being a small piece of the warbeast, both found in the southern camp in the open world section.

    So Balthazar was never planning on using the spear, either on Valst or Kralkatorrik. The vision is either a red herring, or it's instead depicting Vlast's capture before being put into the warbeast, or it's just foreshadowing Vlast's sacrifice to save the PC.

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Posting IRL that "Jormag Doesn't Lie" was probably one of the stupidest thing this current iteration of Arenanet has done, at least in my opinion, and exceeded perhaps only by the decision to actually make "Jormag Doesn't Lie" an actual aspect of canon. Everyone lies, mortal or not, so what makes Jormag so special that this doesn't apply to it? What about its nature physically prevents Jormag from telling a lie or what about its..."saintly" personality causes it to just find lying unthinkable? WHY IS THIS A THING?! Such terrible writing.

    Comparing Jormag to a human is a rather silly thing that you're doing, tbh, since Jormag is an eldritch being who's mind is connected to the cosmos.

    Fiction usually depicts such beings as never-liars, and is in fact a bit of a archtypal trait for such characters to make them "More Than Human".

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  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Posting IRL that "Jormag Doesn't Lie" was probably one of the stupidest thing this current iteration of Arenanet has done, at least in my opinion, and exceeded perhaps only by the decision to actually make "Jormag Doesn't Lie" an actual aspect of canon. Everyone lies, mortal or not, so what makes Jormag so special that this doesn't apply to it? What about its nature physically prevents Jormag from telling a lie or what about its..."saintly" personality causes it to just find lying unthinkable? WHY IS THIS A THING?! Such terrible writing.

    Comparing Jormag to a human is a rather silly thing that you're doing, tbh, since Jormag is an eldritch being who's mind is connected to the cosmos.

    Fiction usually depicts such beings as never-liars, and is in fact a bit of a archtypal trait for such characters to make them "More Than Human".

    Not from what I've observed, so called "higher beings" in fiction don't seem any less likely to lie than humans are, examples being Loki (both IRL myth and Marvel's) and Sauron and Saruman.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I was basing the dragon spear strictly on the cinematic itself, which shows the dragon being stabbed, which would indicate the dragon spear being used, which perhaps was the original intention.

    I get that. I was saying that unless Balthazar's plans and actions got rewritten, there's obvious hints of the warbeast pretty early on in PoF. Forged were pretty much right outside Glint's Lair, if they wanted in they probably would have been working on that instead of mining branded crystals to create the warbeast tail we see in that very instance. In fact, forgot about this but in Night of Fires is when we get our very first hints of the warbeast with the Forged Cart holding branded crystals and the Forged Plate being a small piece of the warbeast, both found in the southern camp in the open world section.

    So Balthazar was never planning on using the spear, either on Valst or Kralkatorrik. The vision is either a red herring, or it's instead depicting Vlast's capture before being put into the warbeast, or it's just foreshadowing Vlast's sacrifice to save the PC.

    I guess it depends on when the cinematic was made and the story was rewritten like you said.

    Though, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense for the dragon depicted to be Vlast, as it shows the world starting to break apart once the dragon dies which was reused to show the unbalance in the cinematic about dragon replacements in Kesho

    Judging strictly by what the visions shows it seems Balthazar kills Kralkatorrik, with some sort of spear like object, the world starts to slowly break apart (unlike when Primordus and Jormag died, showing the planet blow up) follow by it raining fire and flame lightning. I don’t think this is depicting Vlast, and if you can find the dev reference about it being Vlast, I would be curious to see it too.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2021

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    Because I don't ignore the statement of a Narrative Director? Ok then.

    You're treating the "Jormag doesn't lie" statement as if it covers a wider range of cases than it needs to. It comes down to what we consider "lying", which Tom Abernathy (probably intentionally) failed to discuss.

    I think it's pretty clear from the rest of that tweet that when he says "Jormag doesn't lie" it's the equivalent of "Jormag does not intentionally tell us things that Jormag personally does not believe to be true as well."

    As the tweet says. Jormag is always sincere. That dosen't mean Jormag is always correct. You, @Raknar.4735, are consistently speaking as though Jormag's honesty always guarantees Jormag's correctness, and frankly it's getting hard to watch at this point.

    In this case, it would mean Jormag made something up, which is still lying. Pretending to know something and stating something factually wrong, which Jormag would have done if we go by "correctness" is still an act of lying.
    I'm also not speaking as if Jormag is always correct. Just that Jormag doesn't lie and we therefore can still get valuable information out of its words. It's actually pretty sad to see people discredit anything Jormag said simply because Jormag has evil/self-serving intentions.

    Also, this discussion about Jormag is still off-topic according to OP, since this topic isn't about Jormag, but how the PC and the other NPC's act (or don't act). You could have just PM'd instead of making another anwer that delves further off-topic.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 I don't think the balance Jormag is talking about in Jormag's Madness is directly about the balance of the All. It seems more to be about a balance of power between Jormag and Primordus specifically. Jormag is trying to shift the balance on its side by freezing the world to prepare for Primordus, on the other side Primordus is using the feedback loop to finally awaken and power up. To achieve a balance in power, both Jormag and Primordus need to stop what they're currently doing.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    @Konig Des Todes.2086 I don't think the balance Jormag is talking about in Jormag's Madness is directly about the balance of the All. It seems more to be about a balance of power between Jormag and Primordus specifically. Jormag is trying to shift the balance on its side by freezing the world to prepare for Primordus, on the other side Primordus is using the feedback loop to finally awaken and power up. To achieve a balance in power, both Jormag and Primordus need to stop what they're currently doing.

    It's hard to say, but to me there seems to be two separate "balances" being talked about throughout Champions, and especially in this instance:

    Jormag: What choice, then, do I have but to shift the balance of power by whatever means I can?

    This line refers to the power levels of Primordus and Jormag. Hence "balance of power".

    Jormag: Your balance that chains me to an animal. No thought! No reason! Imagine MY MIND, bound for all eternity to THAT!
    Aurene: Th-the balance is needed.
    Jormag: The balance will kill us all!

    This, "Aurene's balance", is reflecting the balance of Elder Dragons and the All on a whole, which was brought up in conversations between Jormag and Aurene before:

    Aurene: That's not my role. The balance can still be maintained.
    Jormag through Bangar: The "balance" is a fantasy—another mortal superstition. Primordus will lay waste to this world. And you are not ready.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Primordus_Rising

    Aurene: I won't need to. There can be no balance if I get involved. Trust me, Champion. There will be another way.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Roaring_Flames#Open_world

    In context, it wouldn't make much sense for the balance between Primordus and Jormag to be mortal superstition, or for it to break if Aurene got involved, or for it to "kill us all".

    Or maybe it's all referring to the same balance, as given the context and wording, it doesn't seem likely that Jormag's statement of "the balance is a fantasy" reflects something other than "the balance will kill us all". Both are talking about the balance of Elder Dragons, sometimes just specifically Jormag and Primordus.

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  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well when Jormag says "The Balance will kill us all" I'm going to assume "us all" is referring specifically to them and the other elder dragons, since it's pretty obvious they view anything else as a lesser being.

    In the guild chat after War Eternal I feel like I remember them alluding to the fact that Kralk was going mad long before he absorbed the conflicting magics. That it began before that and was just expedited or worsened.

    So perhaps there's something about the "balance" that inherently makes them go mad, which is what Jormag is referring to by it killing them all?

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2021

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 Yeah, that's pretty much how I understood it.
    There's currently two balances being talked about in the conversations between Jormag and Aurene.

    The balance of the All is the one Aurene wants to maintain / Aurene's balance / the one Jormag claims is just mortal superstition.
    Then there's the balance of power between Jormag and Primordus, the one Jormag wants to shift in its favour.
    (Both balances are connected and influence each other)

    The problem here is that the "balance of the All" Aurene wants to maintain only works if both Primordus and Jormag play fair. And Jormag doesn't seem to think that Primordus can play fair. So adhering to Aurene's balance and stopping from freezing the world would mean Primordus wins in the "balance of power" and will end up destroying everything.
    It's probably similiar to a Cold War situation in Jormag's mind, if one power stops increasing, the other one will overpower everything.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2021

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Posting IRL that "Jormag Doesn't Lie" was probably one of the stupidest thing this current iteration of Arenanet has done, at least in my opinion, and exceeded perhaps only by the decision to actually make "Jormag Doesn't Lie" an actual aspect of canon. Everyone lies, mortal or not, so what makes Jormag so special that this doesn't apply to it? What about its nature physically prevents Jormag from telling a lie or what about its..."saintly" personality causes it to just find lying unthinkable? WHY IS THIS A THING?! Such terrible writing.

    It's one of those things writers do when they want to write a mystery novel.
    They set up rules for the story to follow.
    But in order to do this, mystery writers do not do randomly add 5 or 6 new expositions or surprise appearances, because that will destroy the narrative.

    Problem is, this isn't a mystery novel, and things are being added all the time because it is an evolving story.
    Setting "rules" like this is just cornering the writers, and yu can see how the story is becoming more and more messy with each chapter.
    The general feel I get from all the Champions chapters is : "this is how it is, because it is how it is. Don't question it"

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  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Posting IRL that "Jormag Doesn't Lie" was probably one of the stupidest thing this current iteration of Arenanet has done, at least in my opinion, and exceeded perhaps only by the decision to actually make "Jormag Doesn't Lie" an actual aspect of canon. Everyone lies, mortal or not, so what makes Jormag so special that this doesn't apply to it? What about its nature physically prevents Jormag from telling a lie or what about its..."saintly" personality causes it to just find lying unthinkable? WHY IS THIS A THING?! Such terrible writing.

    It's one of those things writers do when they want to write a mystery novel.
    They set up rules for the story to follow.
    But in order to do this, mystery writers do not do randomly add 5 or 6 new expositions or surprise appearances, because that will destroy the narrative.

    Problem is, this isn't a mystery novel, and things are being added all the time because it is an evolving story.
    Setting "rules" like this is just cornering the writers, and yu can see how the story is becoming more and more messy with each chapter.
    The general feel I get from all the Champions chapters is : "this is how it is, because it is how it is. Don't question it"

    Dammed if thats not the truth, the last part especially. I would really like it if at least a couple franchises that I really liked don't end up as insulting trash.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    I'd just like to point out that "Jormag doesn't lie" DOES NOT equal "Jormag doesn't tell untruths". AFAIK, "to lie" means that one intentionally tells things they KNOW to be untrue to decieve others. Telling things that are not true but you see them as such is not lying.

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:
    In the guild chat after War Eternal I feel like I remember them alluding to the fact that Kralk was going mad long before he absorbed the conflicting magics. That it began before that and was just expedited or worsened.

    To clarify, it was long before the death of Zhaitan. But it was still conflicting magic, simply from the ley-lines that contains all magic. For whatever reason, Kralkatorrik stopped filtering the magic he consumed (or was never capable of such). Likely the same for other Elder Dragons, which we never see filtering out ley-line magic.

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  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    In the guild chat after War Eternal I feel like I remember them alluding to the fact that Kralk was going mad long before he absorbed the conflicting magics. That it began before that and was just expedited or worsened.

    To clarify, it was long before the death of Zhaitan. But it was still conflicting magic, simply from the ley-lines that contains all magic. For whatever reason, Kralkatorrik stopped filtering the magic he consumed (or was never capable of such). Likely the same for other Elder Dragons, which we never see filtering out ley-line magic.

    I rewatched the guild chat and I'm not seeing any confirmation about it being ley-line magic that began the process?

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    In the guild chat after War Eternal I feel like I remember them alluding to the fact that Kralk was going mad long before he absorbed the conflicting magics. That it began before that and was just expedited or worsened.

    To clarify, it was long before the death of Zhaitan. But it was still conflicting magic, simply from the ley-lines that contains all magic. For whatever reason, Kralkatorrik stopped filtering the magic he consumed (or was never capable of such). Likely the same for other Elder Dragons, which we never see filtering out ley-line magic.

    I rewatched the guild chat and I'm not seeing any confirmation about it being ley-line magic that began the process?

    They don't specify ley-lines, but that they've been consuming conflicting magic for eons, that the Torment is eons old.

    The only mixing of magic there is would be ley-lines, unless they invent something new. And we know they consume directly from the ley-lines already.

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  • mercury ranique.2170mercury ranique.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭

    One thing missing in this converstion is that End of Dragons plays in Cantha. There, traditionally, dragons have been viewed differently and not just as pure evil. I'll be also tapping into asian lore as that has been the base for Canthan lore.
    They see balance as a balance between good and bad. The jingjang sing is an important figure here. Both are intertwined and part of that balance.

    I think that the nature and function of the balance and the cycle will be told as part of the story.

    Someone who always experience positive happy things, will start taking them for granted. They get spoiled and will not recognised how blessed they are. The negative is needed to balance this and make us appreciate the positive. As a matter affect, the deeper the low, the higher the high will be.

    The fact that EoD plays in Cantha means to me that this will be an important part of the plot in the end. We have done a lot of good in the world, but we need bad to have balance and be reminded how good life is.

    The main question imo is if it is a good idea to finish all bad elder dragons and replace them with good entities.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    We often complain about the lack of communication from the writing team but the studio's comment is a perfect example of why writers should usually keep quiet, at least until the text is complete. Imo, they should have known better. Jormag is the Elder Dragon of Manipulation. Even the best writing team with total control of the story's delivery would struggle to make good on this claim. Further, the definition of lying is complex and manipulators use pedantry as cover. The audience needed to interrogate Jormag's complex personality on their own and the studio's comments stepped on our ability to do so.

    I have been looking forward to the transition from the Six Sphere All balance and I could not make it through this last episode. It reads as though it were written by a writing team willing to step on their audience's interrogation. This is a flimsy transition powered by writer's authority.

    Repeatedly, we have been warned about the risk posed by combat between cosmic scaled beings and yet that is now our plan. kitten the civilians I guess. Perhaps everyone involved knows something will come up but is under an NDA.

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  • Lord Trejgon.2809Lord Trejgon.2809 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2021

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    We often complain about the lack of communication from the writing team but the studio's comment is a perfect example of why writers should usually keep quiet, at least until the text is complete. Imo, they should have known better. Jormag is the Elder Dragon of Manipulation.

    I'd like to toss onto that stack with a mention that before the statement was made Jormag did lie on screen.

    During Drakkar meta in Bjora Marches, Jorgams state, that Jhavi is Lying and Drakkar is trying to help Kodan and Norn. Unless Your definition of "helping" is killing every single one of them, yeah sure dude it wants to "help" ;)

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    We often complain about the lack of communication from the writing team but the studio's comment is a perfect example of why writers should usually keep quiet, at least until the text is complete. Imo, they should have known better. Jormag is the Elder Dragon of Manipulation.

    I'd like to toss onto that stack with a mention that before the statement was made Jormag did lie on screen.

    During Drakkar meta in Bjora Marches, Jorgams state, that Jhavi is Lying and Drakkar is trying to help Kodan and Norn. Unless Your definition of "helping" is killing every single one of them, yeah sure dude it wants to "help" ;)

    The thing about telling lies is that there's this problem of perpective. You'd be correct if it was "Jormag is never wrong", but "Jormag never lies" means that they can say something incorrect but believe it to be true so from their point of view, it is truth and not a lie.

    From Jormag's point of view, corrupting and freezing the world is helping the mortals. So the statement is "technically false, but perceptively true".

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  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    @Konig Des Todes.2086 Yeah, that's pretty much how I understood it.
    There's currently two balances being talked about in the conversations between Jormag and Aurene.

    The balance of the All is the one Aurene wants to maintain / Aurene's balance / the one Jormag claims is just mortal superstition.
    Then there's the balance of power between Jormag and Primordus, the one Jormag wants to shift in its favour.
    (Both balances are connected and influence each other)

    The problem here is that the "balance of the All" Aurene wants to maintain only works if both Primordus and Jormag play fair. And Jormag doesn't seem to think that Primordus can play fair. So adhering to Aurene's balance and stopping from freezing the world would mean Primordus wins in the "balance of power" and will end up destroying everything.
    It's probably similiar to a Cold War situation in Jormag's mind, if one power stops increasing, the other one will overpower everything.

    Primordus does seem to be an oddity.. specially now that they've confirmed he is more on the mindless raw destruction side as some of us have suspected for a long time.
    All the other Dragons we've encountered have been intelligent and driven by some kind of agenda or madness in Kralks case but not Primordus, he seems purely instinctive and primal.
    Burn world become stronger sort of thing.. I wonder if he even has a level of sentience that could be considered intelligent or if he really is nothing more than an animal.

    I'm curious about the previous encounter Primordus and Jormag had during the last awakening.. why did that even happen? ED's usually avoid each others territory for the most part and don't seek each other out to fight.

    I don't think that's been explained at all in game and all we know about that is that Jormag got it's tail kicked pretty badly.
    But we do know that Jormag seems hell bent on killing it's brother.. and this is the first time in the story where we've had a situation where one Elder Dragon is actively trying to eliminate another.
    I wonder if Jormag's motives there are revenge for the previous fight that almost cost it it's life or if it's more to do with Jormag's recent angry comments about being bound to something like Primordus forever.
    If it's the latter then i'd be inclined to believe that it was probably Jormag who started their fight in the first place, attempting to rid itself of Primordus once and for all.

    What is curious though is Jormag's outburst in the last "talk" we had with it.. it got blatantly angry and genuinely seems afraid of Primordus, afraid to confront it again and afraid that it could die if that scenario comes to pass.

    I found that a little funny since back in season 4 we had this statement from another Elder Dragon.
    Kralkatorrik: Nothing terrifies an Elder Dragon.
    Kralkatorrik: Not even death.
    Kralk specifically said Elder Dragon.. not referring just to himself which kinda makes it a bit odd that Jormag another Elder Dragon does appear to be showing signs of strong fear.. at least enough for it to break it's calm and "friendly" demeanor and become blatantly angry and aggressive.

    I'm not sure if that's a relevant thing or something the writers forgot about but it's amusing none the less.
    But looking back on the others.. I wouldn't say any of them showed signs of fear.. anger yes but not fear.
    Jormag does appear to be the first Elder Dragon to show fear which I guess makes both Jormag and Primordus unique among Elder Dragons.. both oddities.
    If it is relevant, perhaps it means that something has changed with them since 3 others have died.. more going on that we're not being let in on yet.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Primordus does seem to be an oddity.. specially now that they've confirmed he is more on the mindless raw destruction side as some of us have suspected for a long time.
    All the other Dragons we've encountered have been intelligent and driven by some kind of agenda or madness in Kralks case but not Primordus, he seems purely instinctive and primal.
    Burn world become stronger sort of thing.. I wonder if he even has a level of sentience that could be considered intelligent or if he really is nothing more than an animal.

    Honestly, destroyers having clearly specified targets and not simply attacking until death always implied there was some intelligence behind Primordus. I always figured Primordus would be the least intelligent due to the whole 'dragons know what their minions know' rule, and since Primordus doesn't corrupt the living that would mean the other Elder Dragons would gain knowledge by corrupting, whereas Primordus wouldn't. But "least intelligent" is still a far cry from "not a spark in his head".

    I'm curious about the previous encounter Primordus and Jormag had during the last awakening.. why did that even happen? ED's usually avoid each others territory for the most part and don't seek each other out to fight.

    I don't think that's been explained at all in game and all we know about that is that Jormag got it's tail kicked pretty badly.

    All we know is that Jormag was injured, not necessarily that it lost. Which since Jormag slept quite a distance from that area, while Primordus wasn't too far off in comparison, Jormag losing would be a most likely scenario.

    and this is the first time in the story where we've had a situation where one Elder Dragon is actively trying to eliminate another.

    While it's the first time we see two Elder Dragons in direct conflict, we have seen both Primordus and Mordremoth go after Kralkatorrik's children, with the former seeking their death (unclear for Mordremoth's intentions with the egg). And arguably, Zhaitan did go after a "sapling of Mordremoth" (the Pale Tree).

    I'm not sure if that's a relevant thing or something the writers forgot about but it's amusing none the less.
    But looking back on the others.. I wouldn't say any of them showed signs of fear.. anger yes but not fear.

    Honestly, I'd be inclined to think it's something the writers forgot. Aurene seems to show fear too, fear of becoming like Kralkatorrik, in her earlier talks with Jormag, which Jormag even calls out:

    Voice of Jormag: Your fear and focus are misplaced. I am not driven to madness and mindless rampage like your grandfather.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Primordus does seem to be an oddity.. specially now that they've confirmed he is more on the mindless raw destruction side as some of us have suspected for a long time.
    All the other Dragons we've encountered have been intelligent and driven by some kind of agenda or madness in Kralks case but not Primordus, he seems purely instinctive and primal.
    Burn world become stronger sort of thing.. I wonder if he even has a level of sentience that could be considered intelligent or if he really is nothing more than an animal.

    Honestly, destroyers having clearly specified targets and not simply attacking until death always implied there was some intelligence behind Primordus. I always figured Primordus would be the least intelligent due to the whole 'dragons know what their minions know' rule, and since Primordus doesn't corrupt the living that would mean the other Elder Dragons would gain knowledge by corrupting, whereas Primordus wouldn't. But "least intelligent" is still a far cry from "not a spark in his head".

    Hmm, perhaps it was as simple as Destroyers being drawn to locations of magic and not so much specified targets in the sense of tactical attacks.. I dunno.

    You've a much better memory than I do, are there many cases where Destroyers seemed to show such tactical targeting that don't have some kind of magical lure to draw them there?
    I'm drawing a bit of a blank trying to think on that atm, i'd blame it on my lack of sleep atm but it's probably just my memory failing me again xD

    I'm curious about the previous encounter Primordus and Jormag had during the last awakening.. why did that even happen? ED's usually avoid each others territory for the most part and don't seek each other out to fight.

    I don't think that's been explained at all in game and all we know about that is that Jormag got it's tail kicked pretty badly.

    All we know is that Jormag was injured, not necessarily that it lost. Which since Jormag slept quite a distance from that area, while Primordus wasn't too far off in comparison, Jormag losing would be a most likely scenario.

    and this is the first time in the story where we've had a situation where one Elder Dragon is actively trying to eliminate another.

    While it's the first time we see two Elder Dragons in direct conflict, we have seen both Primordus and Mordremoth go after Kralkatorrik's children, with the former seeking their death (unclear for Mordremoth's intentions with the egg). And arguably, Zhaitan did go after a "sapling of Mordremoth" (the Pale Tree).

    True, although I always thought their interest in Aurines Egg was more to do with it being a source of magic or something.. It was established with Zhaitan that Dragons do like to consume magical objects and every dragon since him did inherit some of his magic.
    It may also have been territorial, Mordremoth only seemed interested in the Egg after it entered his territory.. at least from what I recall.
    And Primordus if i'm remembering right was expanding into the now vacant Mordremoth territory to claim as his own as he was the closest.
    The Egg had also gotten a big dose of Mordremoth magic as well since the end of HoT so if it wasn't a beacon for Dragon Minions before HoT it probably was after Mordremoths death which might explain the Destroyer attack.

    When did Zhaitan go after the Pale Tree btw?.. I am struggling to recall that event.
    The only thing that comes to mind when trying to think of the Pale Tree being attacked is when the Shadow of the Dragon assaulted it, but that was Mordremoth's doing.
    Was this an event in a novel or something? I've not read those.
    Mordremoth had to have still been in a pre awakened state when that took place though since his awakening came after LW1 and Zhaitan had been dead a while by then.
    So I guess Mordy's territory was free game back then and the Pale Tree wasn't connected to him like a typical minion.

    I'm not sure if that's a relevant thing or something the writers forgot about but it's amusing none the less.
    But looking back on the others.. I wouldn't say any of them showed signs of fear.. anger yes but not fear.

    Honestly, I'd be inclined to think it's something the writers forgot. Aurene seems to show fear too, fear of becoming like Kralkatorrik, in her earlier talks with Jormag, which Jormag even calls out:

    Voice of Jormag: Your fear and focus are misplaced. I am not driven to madness and mindless rampage like your grandfather.

    Yeah I expect that's the more likely scenario as well.
    Aurine's fear I kind of chalked up to her being different.. She is an Elder Dragon but she's nothing like the original ones are which has been mentioned quite a bit.
    She's also younger.. a lot, lot younger.. like 10's of thousands of years younger at least lol
    I know they've kind of tried to push this idea that she's not a child but she really does come across as one quite a lot in her talks with Jormag.
    She ain't stupid.. or weak, but she does appear unsure at times, maybe conflicted and a little naive.. it's easy to still think of her as a child considering she was one until fairly recently and she didn't mature in a way we would consider natural.. although what do we know about Dragon Maturity really.
    Her growth from infant to teenager to full adult happened kind of suddenly after exposure to huge amounts of magic, which does make me question to some extent how "mature" she really is.
    Physical maturity and mental maturity are very very different things and I do get the feeling like Aurine is pretending to be more grown up than she actually is at times.
    That though could just be the writing.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    There is a big difference between sincerity and honesty. A being can believe they are right but are still free to lie. Jormag lies and is self aware enough to know it. I won't hammer that point further because I am not blind to the reality of the live environment or the audience.

    For goodness sake, Kralkatorik's statement that Elder Dragon's don't fear anything isn't magiphysics! Stop turning every word into lore. Kralkatorrik is a person with their own ideas and beliefs having a death bed conversation with their granddaughter. He is trying to instill confidence.

    Jormag fears being trapped in the All with their brother and Aurene, finally, is questioning the All as well. Jormag could still surprise us. They might not want to freeze the world but rather be free of the All entirely. Imagine being the intelligent, self aware host for the Manipulation domain chained to the dumb, instinctual host of the Conflagration domain knowing you retain intelligence and self awareness only because your parasitic domain requires those qualities. Jormag could be an amazing character.

    I guess I lied or wasn't sincere earlier. If this is the direction the studio is taking and Aurene's comment about madness indicates it is, the studio's twitter comments spoiled what could have been a powerful revelation. Jormag would deserve the right to reveal their struggle as host and the revelation would be most impactful coming from them. Though Aurene's comment could also be a mystery box made of wet tissue paper. Wet because it contains the snot of authorial authority.

    More on topic for the thread, Tiami's, bless her shallow plot contrivance heart, original simulation could have been wrong since it was based on a model that didn't include Aurene. That doesn't explain why we haven't seen a simulation model that includes Aurene or why we haven't just asked Aurene if she can handle the All alone. The studio's dedication to mystery boxes, infantilizing their NPCs and the PC narrator, and thwarting story agency does a better job of explaining.

    I just realized my genuine interest is souring into hate playing.

    weathering's everything

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Hmm, perhaps it was as simple as Destroyers being drawn to locations of magic and not so much specified targets in the sense of tactical attacks.. I dunno.

    You've a much better memory than I do, are there many cases where Destroyers seemed to show such tactical targeting that don't have some kind of magical lure to draw them there?
    I'm drawing a bit of a blank trying to think on that atm, i'd blame it on my lack of sleep atm but it's probably just my memory failing me again xD

    Well, given that "everything has magic" that's hard to say. But the destroyers do go halfway across the continent in hunting down the asura and Vlast in GW1 (even invading a pocket dimension to attack Vlast). While those are sources of magic, there are much closer and much easier sources to go after.

    I would still argue that the actions of the Metrica Province destroyer champ is one of tactics. When it is outnumbered and overpowered, it goes after the M.E.T.A. Golem, rather than the "obvious" target of Rata Sum - it chooses a weaker magic source that is less defended to go after, rather than the larger, but also more heavily defended, source of magic floating in the sky.

    Gendarran Fields also seems to be one of tactics, as Jhavi mentions that before we showed up, the destroyers assaulted the gates to LA which is why they're ignoring Ascalon Settlement - the destroyer champ launched a feint attack to draw defenses to the already heavily defended larger target, so that it can go after the now-less-defended nearby target.

    Of course, some players just argue that's "mindless attacking", but you don't do feints when you're mindlessly attacking - mindlessly attacking without reason would be going after the biggest brightest lightbulb in the room, like the proverbial moths to the flame. And if that were the situation, then the destroyers would have gone after Rata Sum and Lion's Arch (that were already assaulted at that), not the weaker, less defended targets nearby.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    True, although I always thought their interest in Aurines Egg was more to do with it being a source of magic or something.. It was established with Zhaitan that Dragons do like to consume magical objects and every dragon since him did inherit some of his magic.

    Why only go after Aurene and Vlast, and when they were young thus low on magic? Why do destroyers not go after other dragon minions, like the Pale Tree, or after Searing Crystals or even the hibernating Drakkar, if the intention was solely magic? Not to mention much closer magic to go after, like the Bear Shrine or Wolf Shrine in GW1 (the destroyers go after the Raven Shrine, though we didn't know why in GW1).

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    It may also have been territorial, Mordremoth only seemed interested in the Egg after it entered his territory.. at least from what I recall.

    Mordremoth seemed interested in the egg for more than simply territorial reasons - since the attack began outside of the Heart of Maguuma and his minions' main reaches (in the skies above the Wastes - technically given propulsion, it would be in the skies above Brisban).

    And Primordus if i'm remembering right was expanding into the now vacant Mordremoth territory to claim as his own as he was the closest.

    Primordus moved to the major swell of magic at the Ring of Fire ley-line hub, rather than going into Mordremoth's territory. Other than the one assault on Aurene, there's no evidence of destroyers in the Heart of Maguuma.

    When did Zhaitan go after the Pale Tree btw?.. I am struggling to recall that event.
    The only thing that comes to mind when trying to think of the Pale Tree being attacked is when the Shadow of the Dragon assaulted it, but that was Mordremoth's doing.
    Was this an event in a novel or something? I've not read those.

    Open world Caledon Forest. Risen only began attacking the area after sylvari were born, and are sending constant assaults. There also some sylvari dialogue in The Grove commenting on the wardens fighting risen, and worries about a direct assault on the Pale Tree.

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    For goodness sake, Kralkatorik's statement that Elder Dragon's don't fear anything isn't magiphysics! Stop turning every word into lore. Kralkatorrik is a person with their own ideas and beliefs having a death bed conversation with their granddaughter. He is trying to instill confidence.

    I would disagree. The entire discussion was Kralkatorrik pointing out that because Aurene no longer fears (because she faced her fears, challenged Kralk, died and came back) she's ready to become an Elder Dragon; similarly, he's also stating that Glint was wrong about her interpretation of Kralkatorrik's reaction to his vision. Glint said Kralkatorrik feared his own death - but she was wrong. He didn't want his vision to come true for another (unstated) reason.

    It's a short bit of dialogue that does indeed instill confidence, but it also establishes two other meaning. It's a triple-meaning conversation.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Hmm, perhaps it was as simple as Destroyers being drawn to locations of magic and not so much specified targets in the sense of tactical attacks.. I dunno.

    You've a much better memory than I do, are there many cases where Destroyers seemed to show such tactical targeting that don't have some kind of magical lure to draw them there?
    I'm drawing a bit of a blank trying to think on that atm, i'd blame it on my lack of sleep atm but it's probably just my memory failing me again xD

    Well, given that "everything has magic" that's hard to say. But the destroyers do go halfway across the continent in hunting down the asura and Vlast in GW1 (even invading a pocket dimension to attack Vlast). While those are sources of magic, there are much closer and much easier sources to go after.

    True although Primordus was the only active Dragon at the time so that could have been a territorial display, claiming as much as he could and eradicating as much as he could before the competition could awaken and do the same, Ealry bird gets the worm and all that.
    I wonder if Asura gates played a big role in that originally as well, Destroyers were using them if I recall which is why the Dwarves and Asura were going around destroying them, Didn't we also use one to enter the mission where we had to protect Vlast? or was that just a generic portal.. been a long time since I visited the CTC in GW1.

    I would still argue that the actions of the Metrica Province destroyer champ is one of tactics. When it is outnumbered and overpowered, it goes after the M.E.T.A. Golem, rather than the "obvious" target of Rata Sum - it chooses a weaker magic source that is less defended to go after, rather than the larger, but also more heavily defended, source of magic floating in the sky.

    Could be, could also be more or a survival instinct.. recognising the biggest threat and going after it but that would still be something I would consider an "intelligence" or sorts, at the very least it's a level above completely mindless which is how Primordus is being portrayed now.

    Gendarran Fields also seems to be one of tactics, as Jhavi mentions that before we showed up, the destroyers assaulted the gates to LA which is why they're ignoring Ascalon Settlement - the destroyer champ launched a feint attack to draw defenses to the already heavily defended larger target, so that it can go after the now-less-defended nearby target.

    Of course, some players just argue that's "mindless attacking", but you don't do feints when you're mindlessly attacking - mindlessly attacking without reason would be going after the biggest brightest lightbulb in the room, like the proverbial moths to the flame. And if that were the situation, then the destroyers would have gone after Rata Sum and Lion's Arch (that were already assaulted at that), not the weaker, less defended targets nearby.

    >

    This one I would agree is far more tactical thinking and not mindless attacking.
    I guess we could chalk it up to something Primordus picked up from absorbing Zhaitan or Mordremoth but that would be a pretty big stretch at this point, specially when the active story is trying to portray Primordus as a mindless beast.
    He either is mindless or he isn't, can't be both.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    True, although I always thought their interest in Aurines Egg was more to do with it being a source of magic or something.. It was established with Zhaitan that Dragons do like to consume magical objects and every dragon since him did inherit some of his magic.

    Why only go after Aurene and Vlast, and when they were young thus low on magic? Why do destroyers not go after other dragon minions, like the Pale Tree, or after Searing Crystals or even the hibernating Drakkar, if the intention was solely magic? Not to mention much closer magic to go after, like the Bear Shrine or Wolf Shrine in GW1 (the destroyers go after the Raven Shrine, though we didn't know why in GW1).

    Maybe they're just different.. Dragons are pretty rare even as far as magical creatures go.. perhaps they are naturally more attractive targets to Elder Dragons.. either because they're powerful magical creatures or maybe it's more that they could become rivals one day and it's simply a matter of getting rid of them before they become a threat.
    Then again it may just be territorial, Elder Dragons recognising that the kin of a rival Elder Dragon is around in what they perceive as their territory.
    Jormag did mention Kralkatorrik by name so I would guess that all Elder Dragons are likely very familiar with one another.. considering they've all be around together for thousands of years i'd find it hard to believe if they didn't.

    As we saw with Zhaitan though he was sitting on one of the most magically infused areas of the world and yet he still send out his minions to collect more magic.
    I'm not sure if there being better sources nearby is entirely reason enough for these creatures, they may be attacking multiple locations constantly as well but we just don't see or hear about it unless it's important to what we're doing or where the story is directly going.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    It may also have been territorial, Mordremoth only seemed interested in the Egg after it entered his territory.. at least from what I recall.

    Mordremoth seemed interested in the egg for more than simply territorial reasons - since the attack began outside of the Heart of Maguuma and his minions' main reaches (in the skies above the Wastes - technically given propulsion, it would be in the skies above Brisban).

    Where about's exactly?
    Drytop was the earliest point I can recall where the Egg had come into play and that was because the Master was taking the Egg into Mordremoths Territory.
    Not sure if he was taking it to the exalted specifically but it was brought into Mordremoths reach before the Mordrem started hunting it down.

    And Primordus if i'm remembering right was expanding into the now vacant Mordremoth territory to claim as his own as he was the closest.

    Primordus moved to the major swell of magic at the Ring of Fire ley-line hub, rather than going into Mordremoth's territory. Other than the one assault on Aurene, there's no evidence of destroyers in the Heart of Maguuma.

    There was the attack in Brisban as well as Metrica and the attack on Rata Sum, the DRM's/Missions there but Destroyers have been around those area for a while as well so I wouldn't say that is "evidence" but it may be at least a hint that suggests Primordus's presence in the Magumma area has grown since the death of Mordremoth.
    We've not been back into the Heart of the Magumma specifically for a while so I dunno how that region looks today.. plus there are still lingering Mordrem I think so if Destroyers are popping up regularly there I doubt they are sweeping through the region unchallenged although overtime I expect they would eventually wipe out the remaining mordrem.
    Might be mis-remembering as well but didn't Destroyers also attack the Dragon Research Lab at one point?.. or am I mistaken about that.. I can't remember.

    When did Zhaitan go after the Pale Tree btw?.. I am struggling to recall that event.
    The only thing that comes to mind when trying to think of the Pale Tree being attacked is when the Shadow of the Dragon assaulted it, but that was Mordremoth's doing.
    Was this an event in a novel or something? I've not read those.

    Open world Caledon Forest. Risen only began attacking the area after sylvari were born, and are sending constant assaults. There also some sylvari dialogue in The Grove commenting on the wardens fighting risen, and worries about a direct assault on the Pale Tree.

    Ahh right not a direct attack on the Tree itself.
    I would assume that this had more to do with the Dominion Wall and that it was more or less right on the borders of Zhaitans reach so he'd only just spread his forces that far.
    If I remember right the only Risen in Caledon Forest were coming in from the ocean, somehow getting past or around the Dominion Wall which nobody had figured out yet how they were doing that.
    It may have been purely circumstantial and they had just drifted there by mistake and started attacking any living things in the area as is their default action.

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    For goodness sake, Kralkatorik's statement that Elder Dragon's don't fear anything isn't magiphysics! Stop turning every word into lore. Kralkatorrik is a person with their own ideas and beliefs having a death bed conversation with their granddaughter. He is trying to instill confidence.

    I would disagree. The entire discussion was Kralkatorrik pointing out that because Aurene no longer fears (because she faced her fears, challenged Kralk, died and came back) she's ready to become an Elder Dragon; similarly, he's also stating that Glint was wrong about her interpretation of Kralkatorrik's reaction to his vision. Glint said Kralkatorrik feared his own death - but she was wrong. He didn't want his vision to come true for another (unstated) reason.

    It's a short bit of dialogue that does indeed instill confidence, but it also establishes two other meaning. It's a triple-meaning conversation.

    Some people have made claims that everything Jormag says is the truth so why not Kralkatorrik as well :P it's also something said in game by an Elder Dragon.. straight from the horses.. well dragons mouth if you will.

    What I find curious about that statement Psientist is that Kralk didn't speak for himself, he could have said "Nothing terrifies me!!" but he didn't he said "Nothing terrifies an Elder Dragon!!" making the statement include all of them.
    Aurine as Konig has pointed out earlier as well does have fears too, even as an Elder Dragon she has clearly show that she is afraid of going mad and ending up like the others, or her grandfather.
    3 Elder Dragons have been fought and killed in the story so far and none of them even at their deaths expressed fear.. at most they only expressed anger and pain.
    In this Saga however we'd seen 2 Elder Dragons express blatant signs of fear which is unusual for Elder Dragons to do considering all the interactions we've had with them over the entire story thus far.
    Kralks statement about nothing terrifying an Elder Dragon does appear to be true for the majority of them that we have encountered, Jormag and Aurine seem to be exceptions.. and that has me curious as to why when they shouldn't fear anything.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    With Aurene taking on a resemblance to Mordremoth when she hatched from the egg, I have to wonder if it's possible for one elder dragon to essentially imprint themselves on an egg?

    If they could potentially "steal" a scion? If so, could we potentially see more unhatched eggs moving forward that Aurene could raise as her own?

    Could the blue "orb" in Fort Trinity potentially be an unhatched egg of the DSD?

    I still have to wonder if Aurene isn't nesting though. Sure, she just ascended. So it's a little strange to be thinking of her as potentially laying eggs so quickly but I have to wonder if her little rest time at the Scrying Pool is about more than just peering into it?

    And with the End of Dragons being about the "Cycle Reborn" I have to wonder if it isn't more literal than we anticipate. I think someone also posed the theory that the Tengu could potentially be housing an elder dragon egg within their walls, which is a neat theory.

    Most of the legendaries seem completely random but the introduction of a Xiuquatl like dragon species could tie in nicely with the Tengu.

    We've already had the egg -> scion -> elder dragon plot with Aurene so I'm not saying it's likely but perhaps the "Cycle" and the balancing of magic can only be solved by eliminating the immortality of "Elder Dragons" and simply creating a lineage of dragons that live mortal lives and act as a natural ecosystem.

    Perhaps it's not the combination of magics as much as it is the eons of living and filtering that magic that's broken them and drove them insane. In the initial trailer for Icebrood which is probably mostly irrelevant now Jormag is addressing someone talking about watching their friends die, talking about outliving them, and I wonder if it isn't speaking to Aurene with the emphasis on End of Dragons and the speech within that trailer referencing not the mortality of humans but the immortality of dragons as being something that needs to be stopped.

    I guess time will tell but this next episode is going to have a lot of ground to cover, even with the content released before the next expansion.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:
    With Aurene taking on a resemblance to Mordremoth when she hatched from the egg..

    I know this is an aside, but how do you figure? Can't say I see it myself.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Juvenile_Aurene.jpg

    https://pocketmyriad.xyz/the-zhaitan-mordremoth-postmortem
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Mouth_of_Mordremoth.jpg

    Their scale textures resembling bark, matching chins, the big knot of a nose, and some other characteristics I noticed awhile back that you can't really see that well unless you're in game.

    She at least looked closer to Mordremoth than any of the other dragons we've seen thus far. Each of them so far seems to be pretty unique.

    Here's Vlast as a comparison.
    There really aren't any great shots of Glint up close in Guild Wars 2 but she really doesn't have the same facial structure as Aurene. https://www.artstation.com/artwork/lV96Be

    Vlast looks much more like Kralk though.

  • @Bast.7253 said:
    Could the blue "orb" in Fort Trinity potentially be an unhatched egg of the DSD?

    An interesting theory, but problem I have there is that Orb function is extremely specific, and I'd even dare to say that it's too specific to be likely to be natural byproduct of magical entity.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The thing about telling lies is that there's this problem of perpective. You'd be correct if it was "Jormag is never wrong", but "Jormag never lies" means that they can say something incorrect but believe it to be true so from their point of view, it is truth and not a lie.

    From Jormag's point of view, corrupting and freezing the world is helping the mortals. So the statement is "technically false, but perceptively true".

    Well, kind of, but Jormag of everyone involved should have known - regardless of perspective, that Jhavi is not exaclty "lying" about drakkar either. Even if we use perspective twist, the only thing Jormag could have sincerily have issue with in what Jhavi says would be "yeah but why it's a bad thing again? it's all trying to help lulz".

    But no. Jhavi speaking of what Drakkar has already unquestionably done is supposed to be all lie by the statement of Jormag. Which Jormag should have known not to be. Difference should be interpretation of wether or not those actions were good, not that they did or didn't happen.

    Unless AN want to make Jormag Dragon of Persuation into PTSD'd icy cub, that does not even aknowledge it's own actions that happened more than a year before, but I am unsure which variant is worse out there. Anyway, the whole statement about Jormag never lying and always being sincere on twitter should never happen.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    Could the blue "orb" in Fort Trinity potentially be an unhatched egg of the DSD?

    An interesting theory, but problem I have there is that Orb function is extremely specific, and I'd even dare to say that it's too specific to be likely to be natural byproduct of magical entity.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The thing about telling lies is that there's this problem of perpective. You'd be correct if it was "Jormag is never wrong", but "Jormag never lies" means that they can say something incorrect but believe it to be true so from their point of view, it is truth and not a lie.

    From Jormag's point of view, corrupting and freezing the world is helping the mortals. So the statement is "technically false, but perceptively true".

    Well, kind of, but Jormag of everyone involved should have known - regardless of perspective, that Jhavi is not exaclty "lying" about drakkar either. Even if we use perspective twist, the only thing Jormag could have sincerily have issue with in what Jhavi says would be "yeah but why it's a bad thing again? it's all trying to help lulz".

    But no. Jhavi speaking of what Drakkar has already unquestionably done is supposed to be all lie by the statement of Jormag. Which Jormag should have known not to be. Difference should be interpretation of wether or not those actions were good, not that they did or didn't happen.

    Unless AN want to make Jormag Dragon of Persuation into PTSD'd icy cub, that does not even aknowledge it's own actions that happened more than a year before, but I am unsure which variant is worse out there. Anyway, the whole statement about Jormag never lying and always being sincere on twitter should never happen.

    I'm not sure what you're even referring to in regards to Konig's statement but it's kind of a "devil's in the details" scenario. While Jormag DOESN'T corrupt the unwilling, it doesn't mean it won't make living conditions so inhospitable that they ASK to be saved.

    Create the problem, offer the solution that benefits you. I feel like this is the same thing Jormag's been doing with Primordus. Braham and the spirits are responsible for "waking" Primordus, but we didn't see the heavy destroyer activity until after we woke Jormag and it went off doing who knows what after the Frost Legion Citadel encounter.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    It may also have been territorial, Mordremoth only seemed interested in the Egg after it entered his territory.. at least from what I recall.

    Mordremoth seemed interested in the egg for more than simply territorial reasons - since the attack began outside of the Heart of Maguuma and his minions' main reaches (in the skies above the Wastes - technically given propulsion, it would be in the skies above Brisban).

    Where about's exactly?
    Drytop was the earliest point I can recall where the Egg had come into play and that was because the Master was taking the Egg into Mordremoths Territory.
    Not sure if he was taking it to the exalted specifically but it was brought into Mordremoths reach before the Mordrem started hunting it down.

    That's the situation I'm referring to. The airship was brought down and landed in the SE corner of Dry Top - given the speed of going to the Maguuma and the elevation of the airship, they had to be over Brisban when Aerin let off the bombs.

    And he had to succumb before that. So Aerin succumbed and began going after the egg somewhere between Labyrinthine Cliffs and Brisban Wildlands. According to the Masters in S2E5, Aerin had been muttering weird things for a while, which to me implies he began hearing Mordremoth's influence - meaning Mordremoth was going after the egg at this point - while over the Sea of Sorrows most likely. Certainly longer than being above Brisban.

    Unless the airship is VERY slow moving, which I don't think is implied, since they propel it with wind magic.

    And Primordus if i'm remembering right was expanding into the now vacant Mordremoth territory to claim as his own as he was the closest.

    Primordus moved to the major swell of magic at the Ring of Fire ley-line hub, rather than going into Mordremoth's territory. Other than the one assault on Aurene, there's no evidence of destroyers in the Heart of Maguuma.

    There was the attack in Brisban as well as Metrica and the attack on Rata Sum, the DRM's/Missions there but Destroyers have been around those area for a while as well so I wouldn't say that is "evidence" but it may be at least a hint that suggests Primordus's presence in the Magumma area has grown since the death of Mordremoth.
    We've not been back into the Heart of the Magumma specifically for a while so I dunno how that region looks today.. plus there are still lingering Mordrem I think so if Destroyers are popping up regularly there I doubt they are sweeping through the region unchallenged although overtime I expect they would eventually wipe out the remaining mordrem.
    Might be mis-remembering as well but didn't Destroyers also attack the Dragon Research Lab at one point?.. or am I mistaken about that.. I can't remember.

    The reason why destroyers showed up in Metrica and Brisban in the core game is unrelated to expanding into Mordremoth's territory or going after magic. After waking up, Primordus moved around a lot underground, and this resulted in spreading his minions all over the place (this is also why we see destroyers in Lornar's, Kessex, hear about them in Dominion of Winds, and they're seen in Ascalon in Edge of Destiny, and fought in Derelect Delves). They only began surfacing in the past 5-ish years prior to GW2 (as mentioned in Edge of Destiny) because the stone dwarves had finally fallen in numbers to the point of being unable to hold the destroyers back. This is just Primordus' natural expansion that has been happening over 200 years. He does seem to focus on the asura a bit, but this is more likely to be core GW2's "racial enemies" theme and not any active targeting by Primordus (e.g., there is no lore reason for why it happens, just a meta reason for why it happens).

    His movement in Season 3 is going after magic though, specifically left by both Zhaitan and Mordremoth, as explained in both the Transfer Chaser side story and Taimi in the main plot, and this is ultimately different from the appearance of destroyers in Brisban/Metrica in the core game and Brisban/Metrica/Rata Sum in the IBS.

    And no, destroyers didn't attack the Dragon Research Lab - chak did, in HoT, and in S3 Taimi's experiements (which does include one captured destroyer) broke free. But otherwise, only attacker was Balthazar.

    When did Zhaitan go after the Pale Tree btw?.. I am struggling to recall that event.
    The only thing that comes to mind when trying to think of the Pale Tree being attacked is when the Shadow of the Dragon assaulted it, but that was Mordremoth's doing.
    Was this an event in a novel or something? I've not read those.

    Open world Caledon Forest. Risen only began attacking the area after sylvari were born, and are sending constant assaults. There also some sylvari dialogue in The Grove commenting on the wardens fighting risen, and worries about a direct assault on the Pale Tree.

    Ahh right not a direct attack on the Tree itself.
    I would assume that this had more to do with the Dominion Wall and that it was more or less right on the borders of Zhaitans reach so he'd only just spread his forces that far.
    If I remember right the only Risen in Caledon Forest were coming in from the ocean, somehow getting past or around the Dominion Wall which nobody had figured out yet how they were doing that.
    It may have been purely circumstantial and they had just drifted there by mistake and started attacking any living things in the area as is their default action.

    The risen show up south of the Dominion Wall and head west to warden encampments (there the event chains stop because ANet doesn't let enemies take full control of a map). The only place they "get around the Dominion Wall" is in the Kessex Hills swamp and the swamp on the other side of the map border in northern Caledon. Which is a bit weird because those risen have to not just go around the Dominion's wall but also go through krait and hylek camps to reach... But they do assault said hylek camp in one sylvari story step so not too unfounded.

    But the Corpse Caller, which we never get to fight sadly, is leading small assaults on the warden encampments which protect the Pale Tree. we don't get to see how the shores of The Grove look, but the name "Necrolith Bay" is not too inspiring for 'no risen problems'. Post-BWE edits to the SW corner's events also greatly reduced the indicated severity of the attacks, from this event using a hylek instead of much larger risen crab, to the Corpse Caller being demoted in mechanical rank, to this event rarely spawning. But there's (supposed to be/originally was) a near constant risen assault coming from that corner against the wardens and heading along the mechanical pathing towards the Grove (never making because "fun gameplay!" but still).

    Some people have made claims that everything Jormag says is the truth so why not Kralkatorrik as well :P it's also something said in game by an Elder Dragon.. straight from the horses.. well dragons mouth if you will.

    It's not that "Jormag says the truth" but "Jormag doesn't lie". There is a distinct difference in that Jormag is not talking facts, but perspective truths - Jormag says only what they believe is true, though not all of what they perceive as true.

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The thing about telling lies is that there's this problem of perpective. You'd be correct if it was "Jormag is never wrong", but "Jormag never lies" means that they can say something incorrect but believe it to be true so from their point of view, it is truth and not a lie.

    From Jormag's point of view, corrupting and freezing the world is helping the mortals. So the statement is "technically false, but perceptively true".

    Well, kind of, but Jormag of everyone involved should have known - regardless of perspective, that Jhavi is not exaclty "lying" about drakkar either. Even if we use perspective twist, the only thing Jormag could have sincerily have issue with in what Jhavi says would be "yeah but why it's a bad thing again? it's all trying to help lulz".

    But no. Jhavi speaking of what Drakkar has already unquestionably done is supposed to be all lie by the statement of Jormag. Which Jormag should have known not to be. Difference should be interpretation of wether or not those actions were good, not that they did or didn't happen.

    Unless AN want to make Jormag Dragon of Persuation into PTSD'd icy cub, that does not even aknowledge it's own actions that happened more than a year before, but I am unsure which variant is worse out there. Anyway, the whole statement about Jormag never lying and always being sincere on twitter should never happen.

    Jormag isn't responding to any specific thing that jhavi says, and I doubt that Jormag knows everything Jhavi has ever said about Drakkar, either. If we look just at the event dialogue:

    Jhavi Jorasdottir: Warriors of the Vigil! Kodan of Still Waters Speaking! Anyone who can lift a blade, come to me!
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: You've heard the whispers in the air. Drakkar gains strength as I speak, just across this valley.
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: Every second we let it fester in that cave, the louder those whispers get. Join me, and we will silence them!
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: We won't have much time. Drakkar grows more powerful every second. You hear a voice in your head, ignore it.
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: Remember that the ice dragon speaks through Drakkar. Your thoughts may not be your own.
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: Drakkar can't get away. We've got to hurry!
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: Drakkar's trying to slow us down! Cut through them!
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: Drakkar's just trying to buy itself time. That won't work.
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: Drakkar can send as many of these things as it wants—it won't make a difference.
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: My family's waited a long time for this. you will not get in my way!
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: That was a good fight. But there's more to come. Save your strength.
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: Drakkar won't turn us back, no matter what. Come on, let's keep going.
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: More of your servants? Show yourself, Drakkar!
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: Watch those gates! Enemies incoming!
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: Your master thinks it can stop us. But it's wrong.
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: They're done. Drakkar will just make more if we don't hurry. Come on.

    Jormag: Why pursue a creature that only fights in self-defense? Drakkar is not the enemy. Drakkar is an ally.
    Jormag: Please, listen. Jhavi is wrong. Drakkar is trying to help the kodan and the norn.
    Jormag: Killing Drakkar is not the answer. It acts out of fear, a child hunted by monsters.

    Given this dialogue, Jormag doesn't seem to be responding to a specific line by Jhavi, but the general notion that "Drakkar must be slain/stopped" or "Drakkar is evil". Under this viewpoint, then Jormag isn't lying from their perspective.

    It's a perspective that others obvious disagree with. But this is the "issue" with conversing with an immortal being who has long lost the sense of what it means to be mortal and moral.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    It may also have been territorial, Mordremoth only seemed interested in the Egg after it entered his territory.. at least from what I recall.

    Mordremoth seemed interested in the egg for more than simply territorial reasons - since the attack began outside of the Heart of Maguuma and his minions' main reaches (in the skies above the Wastes - technically given propulsion, it would be in the skies above Brisban).

    Where about's exactly?
    Drytop was the earliest point I can recall where the Egg had come into play and that was because the Master was taking the Egg into Mordremoths Territory.
    Not sure if he was taking it to the exalted specifically but it was brought into Mordremoths reach before the Mordrem started hunting it down.

    That's the situation I'm referring to. The airship was brought down and landed in the SE corner of Dry Top - given the speed of going to the Maguuma and the elevation of the airship, they had to be over Brisban when Aerin let off the bombs.

    And he had to succumb before that. So Aerin succumbed and began going after the egg somewhere between Labyrinthine Cliffs and Brisban Wildlands. According to the Masters in S2E5, Aerin had been muttering weird things for a while, which to me implies he began hearing Mordremoth's influence - meaning Mordremoth was going after the egg at this point - while over the Sea of Sorrows most likely. Certainly longer than being above Brisban.

    Unless the airship is VERY slow moving, which I don't think is implied, since they propel it with wind magic.

    Yeah, the problem with that event is that we don't know how it started.
    Maybe Mordremoth was after the Egg the whole time but maybe he was only after it because of the masters intentions to take the Egg into his territory.. it's a chicken and egg scenario.
    There's a void of information to my knowledge between the master obtaining the Egg and Aerin sabotaging the airship.
    Back then Mordremoth wasn't talking to all Sylvari.. he was choosing them carefully like Scarlet and Aerin for specific tasks.
    If he choose Aerin because of the Egg then it would have to mean that somehow Mordremoth obtained knowledge of the Egg before he planned to destroy the Zepher Sanctum and possibly before he corrupted Aerin.
    But if he learned of the Egg through Aerin then what was his motive for specifically choosing Aerin to corrupt in the first place?
    Maybe i'm overlooking something but I cannot double check anything atm since the Wiki is down for maintenance.

    And Primordus if i'm remembering right was expanding into the now vacant Mordremoth territory to claim as his own as he was the closest.

    Primordus moved to the major swell of magic at the Ring of Fire ley-line hub, rather than going into Mordremoth's territory. Other than the one assault on Aurene, there's no evidence of destroyers in the Heart of Maguuma.

    There was the attack in Brisban as well as Metrica and the attack on Rata Sum, the DRM's/Missions there but Destroyers have been around those area for a while as well so I wouldn't say that is "evidence" but it may be at least a hint that suggests Primordus's presence in the Magumma area has grown since the death of Mordremoth.
    We've not been back into the Heart of the Magumma specifically for a while so I dunno how that region looks today.. plus there are still lingering Mordrem I think so if Destroyers are popping up regularly there I doubt they are sweeping through the region unchallenged although overtime I expect they would eventually wipe out the remaining mordrem.
    Might be mis-remembering as well but didn't Destroyers also attack the Dragon Research Lab at one point?.. or am I mistaken about that.. I can't remember.

    The reason why destroyers showed up in Metrica and Brisban in the core game is unrelated to expanding into Mordremoth's territory or going after magic. After waking up, Primordus moved around a lot underground, and this resulted in spreading his minions all over the place (this is also why we see destroyers in Lornar's, Kessex, hear about them in Dominion of Winds, and they're seen in Ascalon in Edge of Destiny, and fought in Derelect Delves). They only began surfacing in the past 5-ish years prior to GW2 (as mentioned in Edge of Destiny) because the stone dwarves had finally fallen in numbers to the point of being unable to hold the destroyers back. This is just Primordus' natural expansion that has been happening over 200 years. He does seem to focus on the asura a bit, but this is more likely to be core GW2's "racial enemies" theme and not any active targeting by Primordus (e.g., there is no lore reason for why it happens, just a meta reason for why it happens).

    His movement in Season 3 is going after magic though, specifically left by both Zhaitan and Mordremoth, as explained in both the Transfer Chaser side story and Taimi in the main plot, and this is ultimately different from the appearance of destroyers in Brisban/Metrica in the core game and Brisban/Metrica/Rata Sum in the IBS.

    That was my point, I was talking more about the recent attacks on Rata Sum, Brisban and Metrica that happened in the Icebrood Saga.
    I only referenced the core game because there was always some Destroyer presence in those areas but they were not on the level of the assaults in the Ice Brood Saga.. which suggests that Primordus's influence has grown in these regions very recently since he started waking up again, and these areas no longer having other Elder Dragons in them for competition is probably a factor as well.

    As you said he's moved to feed off the magic they left behind.. it would only make sense that Primordus would also claim their territories or at least start using them to launch attacks like he did when he went after Aurines Egg in Tarir.. something I highly doubt he would have been able to do if Mordremoth was still alive.
    He may not be in the Magumma Jungle personally but Mordremoth's Territory is pretty much free for him to use as he pleases and without Mordremoth there his ability to attack locations like Rata Sum, Brisban and Metrica has likely improved.. specially with the Dwarves also falling back.
    Without a way to see what the HoT maps look like today though we'll never know for sure if Primordus expanded there.. but I would assume he did based on the fact that he just seems to want to burn the world and what better place to burn than a giant forest region.

    And no, destroyers didn't attack the Dragon Research Lab - chak did, in HoT, and in S3 Taimi's experiements (which does include one captured destroyer) broke free. But otherwise, only attacker was Balthazar.

    I'm probably misremembering the Taimi experiment thing then lol

    When did Zhaitan go after the Pale Tree btw?.. I am struggling to recall that event.
    The only thing that comes to mind when trying to think of the Pale Tree being attacked is when the Shadow of the Dragon assaulted it, but that was Mordremoth's doing.
    Was this an event in a novel or something? I've not read those.

    Open world Caledon Forest. Risen only began attacking the area after sylvari were born, and are sending constant assaults. There also some sylvari dialogue in The Grove commenting on the wardens fighting risen, and worries about a direct assault on the Pale Tree.

    Ahh right not a direct attack on the Tree itself.
    I would assume that this had more to do with the Dominion Wall and that it was more or less right on the borders of Zhaitans reach so he'd only just spread his forces that far.
    If I remember right the only Risen in Caledon Forest were coming in from the ocean, somehow getting past or around the Dominion Wall which nobody had figured out yet how they were doing that.
    It may have been purely circumstantial and they had just drifted there by mistake and started attacking any living things in the area as is their default action.

    The risen show up south of the Dominion Wall and head west to warden encampments (there the event chains stop because ANet doesn't let enemies take full control of a map). The only place they "get around the Dominion Wall" is in the Kessex Hills swamp and the swamp on the other side of the map border in northern Caledon. Which is a bit weird because those risen have to not just go around the Dominion's wall but also go through krait and hylek camps to reach... But they do assault said hylek camp in one sylvari story step so not too unfounded.

    But the Corpse Caller, which we never get to fight sadly, is leading small assaults on the warden encampments which protect the Pale Tree. we don't get to see how the shores of The Grove look, but the name "Necrolith Bay" is not too inspiring for 'no risen problems'. Post-BWE edits to the SW corner's events also greatly reduced the indicated severity of the attacks, from this event using a hylek instead of much larger risen crab, to the Corpse Caller being demoted in mechanical rank, to this event rarely spawning. But there's (supposed to be/originally was) a near constant risen assault coming from that corner against the wardens and heading along the mechanical pathing towards the Grove (never making because "fun gameplay!" but still).

    I'll have to wait till the wiki is up to check those links.
    I picked a bad time to do a reply I guess XD

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    That was my point, I was talking more about the recent attacks on Rata Sum, Brisban and Metrica that happened in the Icebrood Saga.
    I only referenced the core game because there was always some Destroyer presence in those areas but they were not on the level of the assaults in the Ice Brood Saga.. which suggests that Primordus's influence has grown in these regions very recently since he started waking up again, and these areas no longer having other Elder Dragons in them for competition is probably a factor as well.

    As you said he's moved to feed off the magic they left behind.. it would only make sense that Primordus would also claim their territories or at least start using them to launch attacks like he did when he went after Aurines Egg in Tarir.. something I highly doubt he would have been able to do if Mordremoth was still alive.
    He may not be in the Magumma Jungle personally but Mordremoth's Territory is pretty much free for him to use as he pleases and without Mordremoth there his ability to attack locations like Rata Sum, Brisban and Metrica has likely improved.. specially with the Dwarves also falling back.
    Without a way to see what the HoT maps look like today though we'll never know for sure if Primordus expanded there.. but I would assume he did based on the fact that he just seems to want to burn the world and what better place to burn than a giant forest region.

    Influence in the western Maguuma Jungle doesn't indicate influence in the eastern Maguuma Jungle, though. Like I said, he cleared the underground around those areas allowing his minions access to surface there before moving to the Ring of Fire. They also specifically attack towns - Rata Sum, Soreen Draa, and Skrittsburg - and there's not much in the way of settlements in the eastern Maguuma.

    The only influence denoted in eastern Maguuma is the one attack on Tarir when their barrier faltered during Aurene's birth, and by all indication, Aurene's birth is what drew the destroyers. There's no indication via dialogue or otherwise that Primordus has spread minions there after. And if it has, then the destroyers would most likely be going after the hylek villages, rather than being there for "taking Mordremoth's territory". Primordus' territory is the depths, and destroyers only seem to surface to assault towns and villages. Which is why assuming Primordus went into the Maguuma because "it just wants to see the world burn and what better place to burn than a giant forest" isn't a strong argument - Primordus doesn't burn for the sake of burning, he burns for the sake of genocide.

    And I think the Maguuma suffering a massive forest fire would 100% be talked about - the fact it's not talked about implies nothing of visible importance is happening there.

    The problem with linking the two ("going after magic" and "claim their territories") with the Heart of Maguuma is that the magic ley lines would be less sufficient because the magic would have spread outward with Mordremoth's death - hence the empowerment of the Bloodstone, Auerene's egg, and the Ring of Fire ley hub. There shouldn't be that much magic left in Orr or the eastern Maguuma itself.

    Plus, we have been to Orr after Primordus moved to the Ring of Fire, two times now, and there is zero destroyer influence. It seems that Primordus retained the "don't enter other Elder Dragon territories" rule even with said Elder Dragons' death. The sole exception being the assault on Tarir.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    That was my point, I was talking more about the recent attacks on Rata Sum, Brisban and Metrica that happened in the Icebrood Saga.
    I only referenced the core game because there was always some Destroyer presence in those areas but they were not on the level of the assaults in the Ice Brood Saga.. which suggests that Primordus's influence has grown in these regions very recently since he started waking up again, and these areas no longer having other Elder Dragons in them for competition is probably a factor as well.

    As you said he's moved to feed off the magic they left behind.. it would only make sense that Primordus would also claim their territories or at least start using them to launch attacks like he did when he went after Aurines Egg in Tarir.. something I highly doubt he would have been able to do if Mordremoth was still alive.
    He may not be in the Magumma Jungle personally but Mordremoth's Territory is pretty much free for him to use as he pleases and without Mordremoth there his ability to attack locations like Rata Sum, Brisban and Metrica has likely improved.. specially with the Dwarves also falling back.
    Without a way to see what the HoT maps look like today though we'll never know for sure if Primordus expanded there.. but I would assume he did based on the fact that he just seems to want to burn the world and what better place to burn than a giant forest region.

    Influence in the western Maguuma Jungle doesn't indicate influence in the eastern Maguuma Jungle, though. Like I said, he cleared the underground around those areas allowing his minions access to surface there before moving to the Ring of Fire. They also specifically attack towns - Rata Sum, Soreen Draa, and Skrittsburg - and there's not much in the way of settlements in the eastern Maguuma.

    The only influence denoted in eastern Maguuma is the one attack on Tarir when their barrier faltered during Aurene's birth, and by all indication, Aurene's birth is what drew the destroyers. There's no indication via dialogue or otherwise that Primordus has spread minions there after. And if it has, then the destroyers would most likely be going after the hylek villages, rather than being there for "taking Mordremoth's territory". Primordus' territory is the depths, and destroyers only seem to surface to assault towns and villages. Which is why assuming Primordus went into the Maguuma because "it just wants to see the world burn and what better place to burn than a giant forest" isn't a strong argument - Primordus doesn't burn for the sake of burning, he burns for the sake of genocide.

    And I think the Maguuma suffering a massive forest fire would 100% be talked about - the fact it's not talked about implies nothing of visible importance is happening there.

    The problem with linking the two ("going after magic" and "claim their territories") with the Heart of Maguuma is that the magic ley lines would be less sufficient because the magic would have spread outward with Mordremoth's death - hence the empowerment of the Bloodstone, Auerene's egg, and the Ring of Fire ley hub. There shouldn't be that much magic left in Orr or the eastern Maguuma itself.

    Plus, we have been to Orr after Primordus moved to the Ring of Fire, two times now, and there is zero destroyer influence. It seems that Primordus retained the "don't enter other Elder Dragon territories" rule even with said Elder Dragons' death. The sole exception being the assault on Tarir.

    Shame really though isn't it.
    Would be such and easy way to keep these areas and certain races/factions relevant in the modern storyline.

    After all Gw2 has always pushed a narrative that all must unite to fight the Elder Dragons and yet some races have come and gone over time once their own threats have been dealt with.
    Hylek and Itzel are two of them, they are not one of the factions that will be part of this current story, at least not a central one which is a shame.. same for Quaggan.. probably just have a few random ones there but nobody of relevance or importance.
    It would have been pretty awesome to get Dragon Response Missions in both Orr and the Magumma Jungle regions to see them again in a modern time frame.. and to catch up with some familiar faces in the Heart of Magumma such as Tizlak and Ibli.

    Primordus not expanding into those territories I would say doesn't really make all that much sense since he's now unchallenged there.
    You could argue that he only cares about the Depths and that's a fair argument but at least in the sense of the Heart of Magumma there are targets there which he could attack and simply hasn't.. the Hylek Villages, Tarir.. Rata Novus..
    Why would Primordus ignore these if his goal is to genocide everything?

    I'd say largely the writing.. or perhaps time and resources are the main reason for this.. but realistically I don't think Primordus would ignore Orr and Especially the Heart of Magumma regions, specially with their original Dragons Dead.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Shame really though isn't it.
    Would be such and easy way to keep these areas and certain races/factions relevant in the modern storyline.

    After all Gw2 has always pushed a narrative that all must unite to fight the Elder Dragons and yet some races have come and gone over time once their own threats have been dealt with.
    Hylek and Itzel are two of them, they are not one of the factions that will be part of this current story, at least not a central one which is a shame.. same for Quaggan.. probably just have a few random ones there but nobody of relevance or importance.
    It would have been pretty awesome to get Dragon Response Missions in both Orr and the Magumma Jungle regions to see them again in a modern time frame.. and to catch up with some familiar faces in the Heart of Magumma such as Tizlak and Ibli.

    At the very least, we still got Exalted as allies. Would have been a good way to introduce HoT-map DRMs.

    Primordus not expanding into those territories I would say doesn't really make all that much sense since he's now unchallenged there.
    You could argue that he only cares about the Depths and that's a fair argument but at least in the sense of the Heart of Magumma there are targets there which he could attack and simply hasn't.. the Hylek Villages, Tarir.. Rata Novus..
    Why would Primordus ignore these if his goal is to genocide everything?

    I'd say largely the writing.. or perhaps time and resources are the main reason for this.. but realistically I don't think Primordus would ignore Orr and Especially the Heart of Magumma regions, specially with their original Dragons Dead.

    Primordus wouldn't be unchallenged though. With the mordrem forces reduces, the Exalted would have recovered more of their outposts, which spanned from Dragon's Stand to Verdant Brink and The Silverwastes. And Exalted are decidedly anti-Dragon Minion magic. It's easily possible that their presence and barriers prevent Primordus' attacks, much like the blue orb reduced/prevented attacks on Fort Trinity. And there's not much purpose for Primordus to go after Orr because there are no settlements there - any purpose would be for getting magic, but the sylvari cleansing the corruption of Orr probably makes it not so appetizing. Plus, IBS does seem to establish that Primordus' fastest means of gathering magic is causing destruction and genocide, so the ideal method for getting power would be assaulting towns and settlements - while cities would be ideal, smaller but clustered settlements would be more ideal while still sleeping.

    Of course there's the meta reason of IBS's second half being stripped and gutted for this kitten "finale".

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  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    After all Gw2 has always pushed a narrative that all must unite to fight the Elder Dragons and yet some races have come and gone over time once their own threats have been dealt with.
    Hylek and Itzel are two of them, they are not one of the factions that will be part of this current story, at least not a central one which is a shame.. same for Quaggan.. probably just have a few random ones there but nobody of relevance or importance.
    It would have been pretty awesome to get Dragon Response Missions in both Orr and the Magumma Jungle regions to see them again in a modern time frame.. and to catch up with some familiar faces in the Heart of Magumma such as Tizlak and Ibli.

    Quaggan, Ogres, Grawl, and Hylek, were four of the vanilla game's 5 ally-able tribal groups, and none of them have DRMs. We know Anet considered Centaurs as well. Then there are other races in central Tyria like the Dredge, Krait, Largos, and Jotun, which have enough intelligence to possibly allow for it. Not to mention Djinn, had we gotten DRMs in Elona.

    I think a lot of it simply comes down to time, and how useful said factions would be. Like, the Quaggan, Ogres, Grawl, and most Hylek, really wouldn't make good DRM ally factions due to how primitive, and disorganized, they are. Skritt make at least some sense due to them having a far more personal stake in the battle against Primordus, and using scavenged technology far more often. Not to mention they and the hylek have the closest thing to an actual "city" for their species.

    On the other hand, things like Centaurs, Harpies, Krait, and Jotun, all have the issue of being near universally hostile, and it would take a lot more then one DRM to explain why sufficient numbers of them chose to ally with it. Which is I do believe the stated reason why Centaurs weren't included despite being made.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Of course there's the meta reason of IBS's second half being stripped and gutted for this kitten "finale".

    As much as people say this, I doubt IBS's second half would have been that much different. Like, based on what clues we have, instead of the 4 champions releases we got, there was going to be 4 more normal episodes. But looking at how episodes 1-4 went, with episodes 1/2, and 3/4, being two parts of one story, and two parts of one map, that leaves all of two more big story beats, and two more maps we would have gotten. That leaves the last two episodes, and the last two map halves, to be IBS's Dragonstand/Dragon Fall map, and neither of those maps were particularly lore/story heavy, due to being the end of the story, and mostly focusing on us having already done everything we need to take the fight to the dragon. Leaving episodes 5/6 to be the last big story heavy content in IBS.

    Hypothetically, I could easily see IBS having originally gone

    • Episode 5: Taimi calls us up to Rata Sum to talk about Primordus. Destroyers attack, Ryland comes in and helps like how Truce started. Instead of DRM's Taimi reports that she's picking up a lot of Primordus energy in the Centaur homelands, so we need to go there. First half of the new map is part of the Centaur homeland region, but destroyers are attacking. Map meta involves trying to destroy Primordus's champion in the area. All the major DRM story beats of Ryland/Caithe's conversation, Marj/Jhavi, Taimi/Braham, could have taken place during the story/meta.
    • Episode 6: Much like part 2 of champions, Jormag counter attacks to try to equal itself out with Primrodus again. New Map half involves the 2nd part of the Centaur homeland, but this half is frozen. Like Bjora, the two map halves have separate metas, with Jormag's map meta being like Primordus's, and focusing on killing its champion. Things like Jormag freezing people, Owl dying after having fled here for w/e reason, Braham's talk with that other Norn, easily fit here.
    • Vision of the Past 2: release between episode 6 and episode 7. Longer version of Braham going to find Primrodus and becoming his champion.
    • Episode 7: New map half around the Eye. First half of the map deals with Primordus/Jormag's attack intensifying and drawing closer to the Eye, so the Pact/United Legions start fighting it there. Braham shows up as the Champion of Primordus and turns the destroyer's focus to Jormag's forces like what we saw in the Fireheart Rise DRM.
    • Episode 8: Like Drizzlewood, episode 8 would expand this mat meta into a longer one. This map meta/story would involve Primrodus and Jormag clashing, and us killing them both... or w/e happens in Judgement.

    Almost certainly the original finale would have had far less of a focus on widespread attacks, large alliance gathering, and looking at how past locations are doing now, because all these DRMs/attacks in the DRMs wouldn't exist. That is how GW2 has always been with us being told the dragons are attacking everywhere, but never actually seeing it outside of the attack on Claw Island, and Scarlet's attack on LA.

    This is why I think Champion is probably better in the long run then what we would have gotten otherwise, since it actually shows the thing GW2 has never really shown, and gave Anet an easier time to have all these smaller races/groups come more into the fold then would have happened otherwise. If any of these other allies did show up then they would have just shown up out of the blue saying they got attacked and the Pact helped them, or something, but we would never actually see it like we do now.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    As much as people say this, I doubt IBS's second half would have been that much different. Like, based on what clues we have, instead of the 4 champions releases we got, there was going to be 4 more normal episodes. But looking at how episodes 1-4 went, with episodes 1/2, and 3/4, being two parts of one story, and two parts of one map, that leaves all of two more big story beats, and two more maps we would have gotten. That leaves the last two episodes, and the last two map halves, to be IBS's Dragonstand/Dragon Fall map, and neither of those maps were particularly lore/story heavy, due to being the end of the story, and mostly focusing on us having already done everything we need to take the fight to the dragon. Leaving episodes 5/6 to be the last big story heavy content in IBS.

    Hypothetically, I could easily see IBS having originally gone

    Well "people say this" because it's been confirmed by ANet. As to how it would go, we know that they scrapped centaurs completely from the plot, and without Cantha the Sunqua Peaks Fractal would have been an entirely different topic. There's no real implication of Primordus throughout all of IBS until the last couple Bangar talks after Episode 4, well after EoD development began and IBS development got its gutting for the expansion.

    So I feel like the original plan wasn't even going to have Primordus' involvement - or that it would be as minor as it is now (if not less prevalent). But assuming Primordus was always involved, and the story beats barely changed (again: press x to doubt), I don't think there'd be a 1:1 chapter:episode comparison but "with more stuff to it". Though I do think we'd have gotten more out of the major DRM story beats than just one DRM (e.g., the human treaty covering, the stone dwarves surfacing, and centaurs instead of tengu, would each take the position of an episode's subplot, much as Episode 1's subplot was the whispers, and Episode 4's subplot was the Spirits of the Wild). I do more-or-less agree with your suggested map placement though.

    I do think the Braham champion thing was hashed up last second though. There's zero foreshadowing of it in the first half of IBS, and in all honesty, part of me thinks they went that way because people hopped on that bandwagon when Part 1 released.

    Almost certainly the original finale would have had far less of a focus on widespread attacks, large alliance gathering, and looking at how past locations are doing now, because all these DRMs/attacks in the DRMs wouldn't exist. That is how GW2 has always been with us being told the dragons are attacking everywhere, but never actually seeing it outside of the attack on Claw Island, and Scarlet's attack on LA.

    I would disagree here, since ArenaNet always posited a "return to Season 1 and 2 style" with IBS, and we didn't see much of the Season 1 return. The DRMs and the faction rallies are the closest we got - and we were told that the community rush weeks were in practice for the "S1-styled" content of post-Episode 4. So I do think the faction rallying was always going to be there. Wouldn't surprise me if there was also planned to be a point where we vote for a new Blood and Iron imperator, too, but that point got scrapped.

    I think DRMs were always going to be there too, and simply got a bigger focus than originally planned. Perhaps they were intended to be as much focus as strikes were in the first half of IBS, or were going to be IBS's Side Story content, like the rifts or Awakened invasions, as that seemed to be ANet's go-to method of showing "the enemy is attacking everywhere" in S4. Wouldn't even surprise me if they were going to be regular story steps initially, but converted to repeatable content, given that story steps are also scalable from 1-5 players - fundamentally, DRMs are little more than story steps with repeatable rewards and no need to start via story journal.

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  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2021

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    At the very least, we still got Exalted as allies. Would have been a good way to introduce HoT-map DRMs.

    True.
    But the exalted have always allied themselves with Glint and now Aurine so it doesn't feel all that special that they are aiding us now.. to be honest I would expect this aid from them due to their association with Aurine.

    The Magumma Hylek and Itzel however would have made more of an impact had they answered the call because they don't have the same obligations or allegiances to Aurine.. nobody would expect them too.
    Had they shown up it would have been entirely because they wanted to help, they wanted to risk it all for the good of the world.
    It's a more noble motive than some of the races we've gotten support from so far.
    Or it could have been as simple as.. "well we're being attacked by another dragon" I'd prefer the former circumstance but i'd have accepted the latter just to have them involved lol

    Kodan, Skritt, Dwarves, Tengu.. They're only part of this because they were already involved with these specific dragons anyway.. it could easily be argued that joining us in this fight is merely an act of selfishness on their part to improve their own chances of survival or just ending a threat to their own.
    When these 2 dragons are gone I'll be curious to see if any of them are willing to help us out with the last one, I have my doubts about at least half of them.

    The Ebon Vanguard too have a reason to be involved now since Primordus has attacked them directly as well as other human settlements.. if not for those events would they have answered the call?.. I doubt it.

    The Crystal Bloom and Exalted are allies of Aurine as said above so their support in a lot of ways should be expected.. which kind of lessens their presence there.
    Still glad to have them and all that but I don't consider their presence as commendable as the Olmakhan since their reason for being here is less about fighting Primordus and Jormag and more about protecting and serving Aurine.

    The Olmakhan.. this is the only faction so far that I would say have responded when they didn't have to.. they are helping because they want to help even at the detriment of being dragged into racial problems with the legions which they have long tried to stay out of.
    While they have a lot to gain they also have a lot to loose so their decision to help with these dragons definitely feels more commendable than any of the other factions, least to me anyway.

    Primordus wouldn't be unchallenged though. With the mordrem forces reduces, the Exalted would have recovered more of their outposts, which spanned from Dragon's Stand to Verdant Brink and The Silverwastes. And Exalted are decidedly anti-Dragon Minion magic. It's easily possible that their presence and barriers prevent Primordus' attacks, much like the blue orb reduced/prevented attacks on Fort Trinity. And there's not much purpose for Primordus to go after Orr because there are no settlements there - any purpose would be for getting magic, but the sylvari cleansing the corruption of Orr probably makes it not so appetizing. Plus, IBS does seem to establish that Primordus' fastest means of gathering magic is causing destruction and genocide, so the ideal method for getting power would be assaulting towns and settlements - while cities would be ideal, smaller but clustered settlements would be more ideal while still sleeping.

    Of course there's the meta reason of IBS's second half being stripped and gutted for this kitten "finale".

    You're probably right about that.

    Still it's a shame we didn't get to see these old areas again, I would have loved to see the state of the Magumma Jungle post Mordremoth and if the Exalted have reclaimed a lot of their territory it would have been really interesting to see areas like Silverwastes again as well.
    It's unfortunate that we wont get that.. at least not anytime soon.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Quaggan, Ogres, Grawl, and Hylek, were four of the vanilla game's 5 ally-able tribal groups, and none of them have DRMs. We know Anet considered Centaurs as well. Then there are other races in central Tyria like the Dredge, Krait, Largos, and Jotun, which have enough intelligence to possibly allow for it. Not to mention Djinn, had we gotten DRMs in Elona.

    So were the Skritt but they will be one of the last 2 factions that will be joining us at the Eye along side the Kodan.

    Sad thing is not all of them need their own DRMS, they could have bundled them together.
    We've seen Quaggan in a few existing DRMS, those missions could have been expanded to include helping and recruiting Quaggan as part of the DRM allowing the Quaggan to start appearing as a smaller faction in the Eye.
    Same could have been done by giving the Exalted a DRM in the Magumma Jungle... could have used that to also bring back our Hylek and Itzel allies from HoT.

    The vanilla racial allies could also have just shown up over time at the eye and claiming they wanted to help as well giving them a very minor role but at least they would be there representing their race and making this whole mobilizing allies thing feel like more than it currently is right now.

    I don't expect aid from the Centaurs, Dredge, Krait, Jotun and Largos due to their hostile status but at the very least it would have been nice to see Sayeh al' Rajihd again who could have been the sole representative for the Largos and could have given us some major new info about events going on in the oceans with the Sea Dragon.
    She could have been used to finally start setting up End of Dragons.
    Atm we have nothing at all setting up End of Dragons so the end of IBS will probably be similar to LW3.. just some "Well I guess we're going to Cantha then" ending.
    I'm not saying that's going to be a bad way to do it but it would be nice to have something already in the game that suggests the sea dragon is going to be a problem soon.
    Sayeh would have been a good way to bring that in.

    I think a lot of it simply comes down to time, and how useful said factions would be. Like, the Quaggan, Ogres, Grawl, and most Hylek, really wouldn't make good DRM ally factions due to how primitive, and disorganized, they are. Skritt make at least some sense due to them having a far more personal stake in the battle against Primordus, and using scavenged technology far more often. Not to mention they and the hylek have the closest thing to an actual "city" for their species.

    Yeah time and resources are more than likely the main reason.. though I think Konig may also be right about people claiming potential cuts are being made to rush through the IBS so we can get into the new expansion.
    In all honesty though.. I would gladly have accepted delays to make this IBS content better and flesh out this whole mobilizing allies thing with more races.
    I don't think the IBS is bad in concept.. there's some good ideas here but it's execution has left a lot of people disappointed with it.. myself less than others admittedly.

    I know a lot of people hate delays and I do as well but at the end of the day under all circumstances, I would rather have a better product than a rushed one.. there is no question about that.

    On the other hand, things like Centaurs, Harpies, Krait, and Jotun, all have the issue of being near universally hostile, and it would take a lot more then one DRM to explain why sufficient numbers of them chose to ally with it. Which is I do believe the stated reason why Centaurs weren't included despite being made.

    Yeah the hostile races are understandable, I don't think anyone would reasonably expect their help in all this.
    My complaints are more to do with non hostile or even allied races or individuals that in my opinion should be part of this event.. like the vanilla racial allies and the HoT frog races, it's really disappointing to me that they're not involved.

  • HotDelirium.7984HotDelirium.7984 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    The need for Elder Dragon replacement was eliminated by Aurene.

    As Kralk mentions at the end of LWS4, Aurene is unique in that she can take in, and combine, all the various dragon magics within her. Unlike other Elder Dragons where those energies conflict, and cause torment.

    This is supplemented by what Glint said in "All or Nothing", during the section here the Commander and Aurene are undergoing the trails. Unlike other Elder Dragons, who horde magic into themselves, Aurene shares magic with others. The more she shares it with others, the more she is able to negate the negative effects of collecting so much power like the other Elder Dragons suffer from.

    The need for multiple Elder Dragon replacements was only necessary because we were working within the ideals of the system as it was, which needed 6 Elder Dragons to control the magic. Aurene fundamentally changed the system with her unique abilities.

    AND to add to that there are still limitations and stipulations with the magical realism with Aurene. She might be very unique (and she is) but she is also the newest Elder dragon, the smallest, and probably weaker in many regards compared to the other dragons. Any other dragon would REK Aurene in a direct frontal assault and probably kill her-and yeah, she can be killed permanently if her magic is also consumed by another dragon. She is the new infrastructure within the world to keep it going and the current Elder Dragons are now the old news and she is now mustering the allies to aid her in this new endeavor. There are so many ways this could play out and I'm excited to see it.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2021

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    There's no real implication of Primordus throughout all of IBS until the last couple Bangar talks after Episode 4, well after EoD development began and IBS development got its gutting for the expansion.
    So I feel like the original plan wasn't even going to have Primordus' involvement - or that it would be as minor as it is now (if not less prevalent). But assuming Primordus was always involved, and the story beats barely changed

    People had been pointing out the fiery red highlights in the IBS logo since the beginning, and there is the Jormag's Blood achievement in Jormag Rising that mentions Jormag and Primordus's fight in the area. And we know from LWS3 that Jormag and Primordus are each others weaknesses, so any story taking on one would have to involve the other given that we have killed every dragon thus far by exploiting their weakness(unknowingly with Zhaitan)

    I don't think there'd be a 1:1 chapter:episode comparison but "with more stuff to it". Though I do think we'd have gotten more out of the major DRM story beats than just one DRM (e.g., the human treaty covering, the stone dwarves surfacing, and centaurs instead of tengu, would each take the position of an episode's subplot, much as Episode 1's subplot was the whispers, and Episode 4's subplot was the Spirits of the Wild).

    I don't really see how that would work given that none of those factions are anywhere near the centaur homelands to be heavily covered in episodes 5-6. Nor are most of them really near the Eye of the North to be covered heavily in episodes 7-8 either. I would suspect we would have just gotten much more focused on the centaurs, and allying with them, rather then the lesser focus we got with more factions like we have now. Things like the human/Charr treaty thing would have most likely just been some throw away dialog.

    I do think the Braham champion thing was hashed up last second though. There's zero foreshadowing of it in the first half of IBS, and in all honesty, part of me thinks they went that way because people hopped on that bandwagon when Part 1 released.

    I would disagree here. If Jormag and Primordus are each other's weaknesses, as established back in LWS3, and the Norn of Prophecy has to kill Jormag, or Jormag kills him, then said Norn of Prophecy would have to use Primordus's power in some way to do so.

    I would disagree here, since ArenaNet always posited a "return to Season 1 and 2 style" with IBS, and we didn't see much of the Season 1 return. The DRMs and the faction rallies are the closest we got - and we were told that the community rush weeks were in practice for the "S1-styled" content of post-Episode 4. So I do think the faction rallying was always going to be there. Wouldn't surprise me if there was also planned to be a point where we vote for a new Blood and Iron imperator, too, but that point got scrapped.

    Anet posited a return to S1 content after they already knew they were going to make an expansion, and thus "gut" IBS. All mentions of LWS1 content were within this concept of a "gutted" IBS.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Sad thing is not all of them need their own DRMS, they could have bundled them together.
    We've seen Quaggan in a few existing DRMS, those missions could have been expanded to include helping and recruiting Quaggan as part of the DRM allowing the Quaggan to start appearing as a smaller faction in the Eye.
    Same could have been done by giving the Exalted a DRM in the Magumma Jungle... could have used that to also bring back our Hylek and Itzel allies from HoT.

    I just think the problem is that the Iztel and Nuhoch(both of which are Hylek) are just too primitive and tribal to really be viable as a faction in the DRMs. Its the same thing as the Quaggan and other races like Grawl, Ogres, etc.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    People had been pointing out the fiery red highlights in the IBS logo since the beginning, and there is the Jormag's Blood achievement in Jormag Rising that mentions Jormag and Primordus's fight in the area. And we know from LWS3 that Jormag and Primordus are each others weaknesses, so any story taking on one would have to involve the other given that we have killed every dragon thus far by exploiting their weakness(unknowingly with Zhaitan)

    People also related the red in the IBS logo to Bangar's Blood Legion, which is iconically red in color. It honestly could have been either way, and given the first half of IBS, makes far more sense for it to be Bangar, who was also depicted with red-orange fire in the banners. The typical IBS banner, in fact, is a half-half of Bangar in orange/red and Jormag in white/blue.

    As to the Jormag's Blood achievement, ignoring the fact that Episode 4 was developed in large part after EoD's announcement and the redirecting of staff to the expansion, felt more intended as a reference and nod to the Sanguinary Blade storyline of the Personal Story, and expanding the lore of the previous dragonrise and building on Season 3's firmly established connection between the two doesn't foreshadow the current plot.

    And about S3 establishing the two are each other's weaknesses - it also established that any sufficiently powerful fire can harm Jormag - e.g., Braham's enchanted bow or the Spirit of Fire; Episode 2 and 4 even furthered this with Sohothin being used to enhance Flame Legion magic to take out Jormag's powerful magic. Which honestly, Sohothin's involvement in Episode 2, and the heavy focus on Braham's bow, felt like they were the original chekov's guns for how to finish off Jormag, rather than Champion Braham.

    I don't think there'd be a 1:1 chapter:episode comparison but "with more stuff to it". Though I do think we'd have gotten more out of the major DRM story beats than just one DRM (e.g., the human treaty covering, the stone dwarves surfacing, and centaurs instead of tengu, would each take the position of an episode's subplot, much as Episode 1's subplot was the whispers, and Episode 4's subplot was the Spirits of the Wild).

    I don't really see how that would work given that none of those factions are anywhere near the centaur homelands to be heavily covered in episodes 5-6. Nor are most of them really near the Eye of the North to be covered heavily in episodes 7-8 either. I would suspect we would have just gotten much more focused on the centaurs, and allying with them, rather then the lesser focus we got with more factions like we have now. Things like the human/Charr treaty thing would have most likely just been some throw away dialog.

    Stone Dwarves could show up wherever the heck destroyers could, and Drizzlewood was right next to centaur homelands and had tengu. And not everything has to be involved with the newest map - e.g., in Season 4 Episode 3, we had two story steps dealing with Amnoon and the Tomb of the Primeval Kings, before we went to Kourna. Season 3 episodes also often dealt with returning to Rata Novus, or going to other places (e.g., Hoelbrak) before the new map.

    I do think the Braham champion thing was hashed up last second though. There's zero foreshadowing of it in the first half of IBS, and in all honesty, part of me thinks they went that way because people hopped on that bandwagon when Part 1 released.

    I would disagree here. If Jormag and Primordus are each other's weaknesses, as established back in LWS3, and the Norn of Prophecy has to kill Jormag, or Jormag kills him, then said Norn of Prophecy would have to use Primordus's power in some way to do so.

    See above note about Braham's Bow, the Spirit of Fire, and Sohothin.

    Also take note that Edge of Destiny followed the trope that Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik have - that their own power is also their greatest weakness. The Destroyer of Life's fire was too strong for any ice magic to harm it, so the group killed it by firing a primordial fire arrow back at its core, making primordial fire burn primordial fire. The Dragonspawn was killed in a similar way, by having the icebrood turn on it and the whole thing became a whirlwind of ice shards and bones.

    Add onto the fact that Season 3 firmly established that, yes, Mordremoth's weakness was its mind... but Mordremoth's magic is also weak to Zhaitan's magic and vice versa (which is even supported by the perasonal story with Caladbolg being affective against Mazdak, the Sovereign Eye, and cleansing the Artesian Waters), which very heavily hints right off the bat that the whole "one unique weakness" is incorrect.

    Anet posited a return to S1 content after they already knew they were going to make an expansion, and thus "gut" IBS. All mentions of LWS1 content were within this concept of a "gutted" IBS.

    This is hard to argue firmly, as we don't know when ArenaNet decided to go with End of Dragons. The first time we got wind of it ourselves was around when Visions of the Past was released, however, mention of returning to S1 content happened well before that, near the beginning of IBS, iirc.

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  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Sad thing is not all of them need their own DRMS, they could have bundled them together.
    We've seen Quaggan in a few existing DRMS, those missions could have been expanded to include helping and recruiting Quaggan as part of the DRM allowing the Quaggan to start appearing as a smaller faction in the Eye.
    Same could have been done by giving the Exalted a DRM in the Magumma Jungle... could have used that to also bring back our Hylek and Itzel allies from HoT.

    I just think the problem is that the Iztel and Nuhoch(both of which are Hylek) are just too primitive and tribal to really be viable as a faction in the DRMs. Its the same thing as the Quaggan and other races like Grawl, Ogres, etc.

    The same could be said for Tengu and especially Skritt too really.

    But I don't think their technology should limit them.
    The bigger issue with Hylek mechanically is that their main contributing strength is Alchemy and the Dwarves already kinda filled that role.
    That said I could still they could contribute by having a CC alchemy skill give em a decent AoE chill or immob or something to help keep enemies grouped up.

    That and the larger Nuhoch allies can also stomp and knock down enemies as well, it would make them a good ally to have even if their technology is primitive.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2021

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The same could be said for Tengu and especially Skritt too really.

    But I don't think their technology should limit them.
    The bigger issue with Hylek mechanically is that their main contributing strength is Alchemy and the Dwarves already kinda filled that role.
    That said I could still they could contribute by having a CC alchemy skill give em a decent AoE chill or immob or something to help keep enemies grouped up.

    That and the larger Nuhoch allies can also stomp and knock down enemies as well, it would make them a good ally to have even if their technology is primitive.

    For the Tengu? Not really. The Dominion of Winds wall is a feat of crafting, and architecture, far beyond the likes of the tribal species like Grawl, Hylek, Quaggan, Ogres, Harpies, etc.

    You can see this in their weapons also. The Grawl, Kylek, Krait, and Orge, weapon sets all look distinctly primitive, and crude. Whereas the Tengu weapons look fairly advanced.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The same could be said for Tengu and especially Skritt too really.

    But I don't think their technology should limit them.
    The bigger issue with Hylek mechanically is that their main contributing strength is Alchemy and the Dwarves already kinda filled that role.
    That said I could still they could contribute by having a CC alchemy skill give em a decent AoE chill or immob or something to help keep enemies grouped up.

    That and the larger Nuhoch allies can also stomp and knock down enemies as well, it would make them a good ally to have even if their technology is primitive.

    For the Tengu? Not really. The Dominion of Winds wall is a feat of crafting, and architecture, far beyond the likes of the tribal species like Grawl, Hylek, Quaggan, Ogres, Harpies, etc.

    You can see this in their weapons also. The Grawl, Kylek, Krait, and Orge, weapon sets all look distinctly primitive, and crude. Whereas the Tengu weapons look fairly advanced.

    I don't know about the Krait though. .I mean, what makes the Tengu weapons more advanced? The style? The metallic nature of it? I don't think Krait have access to too many smelting forges at the bottom of the ocean. lol Then again I guess you always have Largos who don't seem to have a problem. I think it's just a difference of culture. Krait seem to lean more towards mysticism and magic and most of the Tengu I've seen in Guild Wars 2 at least seem to lean towards typical warrior/bowman/assassin type combat styles.

    And can we really deduct that those other races are primitive just because they put less emphasis on decoration and how showy they are?

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    @Bast.7253 said:
    I don't know about the Krait though. .I mean, what makes the Tengu weapons more advanced? The style? The metallic nature of it? I don't think Krait have access to too many smelting forges at the bottom of the ocean. lol Then again I guess you always have Largos who don't seem to have a problem. I think it's just a difference of culture. Krait seem to lean more towards mysticism and magic and most of the Tengu I've seen in Guild Wars 2 at least seem to lean towards typical warrior/bowman/assassin type combat styles.

    And can we really deduct that those other races are primitive just because they put less emphasis on decoration and how showy they are?

    Everything makes the Tengu weapons mode advanced. Look at the Krait axe for instance.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/a/a8/Krait_Battleaxe.jpg
    The krait axe is just a giant slab of obviously crude metal with some sharped edges literally strapped to a handle. On the other hand the Tengu axe
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/4/49/Tengu_Echo_Axe.jpg
    Is an obviously refined and worked piece of metal attached to the handle by something other then a strap. It shows clearly more advanced metal working skills.

    This has nothing to do with culture, but the obvious difference in crafting ability. The same is true in other areas. Krait live in literally cobbled together, rickety, shipwreck, masses, with little in the way of complex structures, or homes, or even really rooms. The Tengu built the wall. Its like comparing the Kodan, who were able to make their floating iceberg sanctuaries with complex architecture on par with that of other races like the human, and the Quaggan, Grawl, or Hylek, who all live in small lean-tos, or communal family huts.

    There is a very clear difference in the level of development of races like the Tengu, Kodan, and Dredge, to that of the Grawl, Krait, Hylek, Quaggans, Ogres, Harpies, etc.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    I don't know about the Krait though. .I mean, what makes the Tengu weapons more advanced? The style? The metallic nature of it? I don't think Krait have access to too many smelting forges at the bottom of the ocean. lol Then again I guess you always have Largos who don't seem to have a problem. I think it's just a difference of culture. Krait seem to lean more towards mysticism and magic and most of the Tengu I've seen in Guild Wars 2 at least seem to lean towards typical warrior/bowman/assassin type combat styles.

    And can we really deduct that those other races are primitive just because they put less emphasis on decoration and how showy they are?

    Everything makes the Tengu weapons mode advanced. Look at the Krait axe for instance.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/a/a8/Krait_Battleaxe.jpg
    The krait axe is just a giant slab of obviously crude metal with some sharped edges literally strapped to a handle. On the other hand the Tengu axe
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/4/49/Tengu_Echo_Axe.jpg
    Is an obviously refined and worked piece of metal attached to the handle by something other then a strap. It shows clearly more advanced metal working skills.

    This has nothing to do with culture, but the obvious difference in crafting ability. The same is true in other areas. Krait live in literally cobbled together, rickety, shipwreck, masses, with little in the way of complex structures, or homes, or even really rooms. The Tengu built the wall. Its like comparing the Kodan, who were able to make their floating iceberg sanctuaries with complex architecture on par with that of other races like the human, and the Quaggan, Grawl, or Hylek, who all live in small lean-tos, or communal family huts.

    There is a very clear difference in the level of development of races like the Tengu, Kodan, and Dredge, to that of the Grawl, Krait, Hylek, Quaggans, Ogres, Harpies, etc.

    I just don't know if that kind of logic applies in a fantasy setting though. You're assuming the Krait couldn't make better weapons if they WANTED to. And in the ocean depths do they really need anything intricately designed? Whether it has a handle or not if it does the job, it does the job. For all we know the Krait origins could be monolithic undersea structures made of carved stone. But even if they aren't and they all choose to live in caves/coral reefs, it doesn't mean they're incapable of building something more. There just isn't much need. Outside of the Deep Sea Dragon but it's an Elder Dragon.

    I get where you're coming from because in real life that's a sign of one civilization being more advanced than another, but in a game filled with varying levels of sentient humanoid species with different needs in habitat, I don't think you can really apply that same logic. The tengu carved a massive decorative wall surrounding their city but that mean they're more advanced, it just means they have a culture more similar to humans in desiring architecture with more aesthetic.