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Roleplaying the Crystal Bloom? Crystal Bloom lore?

Yuyuske.7182Yuyuske.7182 Member ✭✭✭

I know the Crystal Bloom is Aurene-related, but what are they actually about? What are their beliefs, their principles, their goals, their guiding philosophies? Do they worship her? Are they a cult? A religion? Do they have a leadership structure? Does Aurene tell them what to do? Does Caithe? What do you get out of joining up with them? What happens if you decide to quit?
I ask because I'm in an RP guild and one of my characters (a sylvari) has completed their Wyld Hunt and now they're wondering where to go from here, and the Crystal Bloom seems like an interesting option...but I don't know if it'd be for them or not.

Comments

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 22, 2021

    is more about "charisma"(of Aurene), i dont remember in which map, theres a dialogue where Caithe's explain they are people who fond of Aurene for various reasons, some people think the own some salvation to her(like free awakaned), other find hope in her.

    more religious ppl see a god(like former balthazar devotee), other just want some leadership.

    -- Atlantean Sword --
    The secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, Conan. You must learn its discipline. For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts..." [Points to sword] "This you can trust."

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yuyuske.7182 said:
    What are their beliefs, their principles, their goals, their guiding philosophies?

    Generally what we see is "protect and heal the world from the Elder Dragon damages". Basically where the Pact is the sword against Elder Dragons, the Crystal Bloom is the shield and bandages.

    Do they worship her? Are they a cult? A religion?

    Kind of. This isn't entirely clear but they do act borderline fanatics in Dragonfall. And it's kind of hard not to - a god-like being appears to save the world, is killed, and resurrected 3 minutes/months later? That's pretty much Jesus of Nazaroth. A religion forming around Aurene is as inevitable as a religion forming around Jesus. But such a religion is never explicitly stated. They revere her for sure, but do they worship her? Unclear. I imagine some would.

    Do they have a leadership structure? Does Aurene tell them what to do? Does Caithe?

    They do. Caithe is their leader, and it doesn't seem like they take direct actions from Aurene but instead view her as a role model to follow. Caithe likely does get direct "orders" (read: suggestions) that she then gives the Crystal Bloom, but I imagine this is a small occasional thing and nothing Aurene enforces. Not enough details to be certain of this though.

    But Caithe is 100% their leader. Any hierarchy between Caithe and the new recruits is never explored or hinted.

    What do you get out of joining up with them? What happens if you decide to quit?

    Never brought up. There doesn't seem to be any benefits for joining, and there's been no case of people leaving mentioned so far (unsurprising given it's not even two full years old). Most join because they want to join out of inspiration of Aurene's story.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • mercury ranique.2170mercury ranique.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Yuyuske.7182 said:
    Do they worship her? Are they a cult? A religion?

    Kind of. This isn't entirely clear but they do act borderline fanatics in Dragonfall. And it's kind of hard not to - a god-like being appears to save the world, is killed, and resurrected 3 minutes/months later? That's pretty much Jesus of Nazaroth. A religion forming around Aurene is as inevitable as a religion forming around Jesus. But such a religion is never explicitly stated. They revere her for sure, but do they worship her? Unclear. I imagine some would.

    Just to elaborate a bit. They originate from Caithe and she is their de-facto leader (see Konig's bit about leadership).
    The Sylvari do not have a religion. They actually want proof of the existence of a God making them rather agnostic in nature. Aurene has proven abilities to be seen as a deity from an agnostic point of view. meaning the line being religion (believing) and science (knowing) is rather thin.
    Anohter element from most religions and cults that is missing is exclusion. (I am the only God, you shall not worship any other Gods). They revere Aurene, but there is no indication this is exclusive (e.g. a Norn-member could still believe in the spirits of the wild, atleast there is no indication this is no longer possible and that they must reject this, same goes for the sunspears who became a member.)

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2021

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:
    Just to elaborate a bit. They originate from Caithe and she is their de-facto leader (see Konig's bit about leadership).

    The Crystal Bloom do not "originate from Caithe". As established in War Eternal, they appeared because they heard stories of Aurene fighting, dying, and resurrecting. They look to Caithe as their leader because she was bonded by Aurene.

    The Sylvari do not have a religion. They actually want proof of the existence of a God making them rather agnostic in nature. Aurene has proven abilities to be seen as a deity from an agnostic point of view. meaning the line being religion (believing) and science (knowing) is rather thin.

    I'd argue a bit on this topic. While in the core game, sylvari were questionable of the Six Gods' existence due to lack of physical proof, Balthazar's return serves as a primary existence of gods. On top of this, Aurene is not a god but an Elder Dragon which has never been in question.

    Whether or not sylvari were to worship Aurene as a god is another matter, but Aurene is by all accounts not a god.

    Anohter element from most religions and cults that is missing is exclusion. (I am the only God, you shall not worship any other Gods). They revere Aurene, but there is no indication this is exclusive (e.g. a Norn-member could still believe in the spirits of the wild, atleast there is no indication this is no longer possible and that they must reject this, same goes for the sunspears who became a member.)

    Most polytheist religions are, in fact, not exclusive. Most polytheist treatment of other religions was either "okay, another god for the pantheon" or "this god of yours sounds like mine but under a different name" (the latter is typically caused by the fact that many ancient cultures actually borrowed from other pantheons, per the first, and would change the gods to fit their own culture - Aphrodite, for example, has many parallels to Ishtar from Babylon, and is very plausible to originate from Greeks hearing about Ishtar - the first depictions of Aphrodite, which was commonly used in Sparta, more closely resembles Ishtar who is not just goddess of love, but also war (this is also possibly why Aphrodite in Greek mythology is married to Ares; for as much flak Romans get for "stealing" the Greek gods, the Greeks stole their fair share of gods from other cultures too).

    It is pretty much just the Abrahamic monotheistic religions of judaism, christianity, and islam which are exclusive.

    By this right, since every religion other than the kodan in Tyria is polytheistic, there would be nothing preventing most Tyrians to simply adapting Aurene as an additional divine figure to worship alongside their gods, spirits, or what-have-you.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • mercury ranique.2170mercury ranique.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:
    Just to elaborate a bit. They originate from Caithe and she is their de-facto leader (see Konig's bit about leadership).

    The Crystal Bloom do not "originate from Caithe". As established in War Eternal, they appeared because they heard stories of Aurene fighting, dying, and resurrecting. They look to Caithe as their leader because she was bonded by Aurene.

    The Sylvari do not have a religion. They actually want proof of the existence of a God making them rather agnostic in nature. Aurene has proven abilities to be seen as a deity from an agnostic point of view. meaning the line being religion (believing) and science (knowing) is rather thin.

    I'd argue a bit on this topic. While in the core game, sylvari were questionable of the Six Gods' existence due to lack of physical proof, Balthazar's return serves as a primary existence of gods. On top of this, Aurene is not a god but an Elder Dragon which has never been in question.

    Whether or not sylvari were to worship Aurene as a god is another matter, but Aurene is by all accounts not a god.

    Anohter element from most religions and cults that is missing is exclusion. (I am the only God, you shall not worship any other Gods). They revere Aurene, but there is no indication this is exclusive (e.g. a Norn-member could still believe in the spirits of the wild, atleast there is no indication this is no longer possible and that they must reject this, same goes for the sunspears who became a member.)

    Most polytheist religions are, in fact, not exclusive. Most polytheist treatment of other religions was either "okay, another god for the pantheon" or "this god of yours sounds like mine but under a different name" (the latter is typically caused by the fact that many ancient cultures actually borrowed from other pantheons, per the first, and would change the gods to fit their own culture - Aphrodite, for example, has many parallels to Ishtar from Babylon, and is very plausible to originate from Greeks hearing about Ishtar - the first depictions of Aphrodite, which was commonly used in Sparta, more closely resembles Ishtar who is not just goddess of love, but also war (this is also possibly why Aphrodite in Greek mythology is married to Ares; for as much flak Romans get for "stealing" the Greek gods, the Greeks stole their fair share of gods from other cultures too).

    It is pretty much just the Abrahamic monotheistic religions of judaism, christianity, and islam which are exclusive.

    By this right, since every religion other than the kodan in Tyria is polytheistic, there would be nothing preventing most Tyrians to simply adapting Aurene as an additional divine figure to worship alongside their gods, spirits, or what-have-you.

    With Exclusivity I did not mean monotheistic. Even with a pantheon, there is exclusivity. The example from the Bible/Thora was maybe ill-chosen.
    It is mostly a regional thing. In Greece they believed in the ancient greek gods. they did not believe in e.g. any norse Gods. society would not really except it. In Europe, on the places where roman catholics mix with protestants, for a long time, they lived in bubles (a catholic would only go to catholic shops, kids to catholic schools, etc). In some parts this rivalry is still happening (e.g. northern ireland).

    There are some religions that do encourage following other religions. A good example is Sufism (a branch of Islam, and the real life inspiration for the Dervish) or Freemasonry. they can co-exist next to other religions.

    A Norn does not believe in both the spirits of the wild and the 6 human gods. If he would, he would most likely be seen as wierd and outcasted.

    In that way I doubt this happens with crystal bloom. Like e.g. freemasons, Norns are allowed to keep their original believe in the spirits of the wild (although I could not find any proof in game it is not the case, there is also no proof of the opposite. Given the amount of Norns it is logical it would be allowed and knowing Aurene,'s filosophy even encouraged).

    tl;dr. I did not mean to say exclusivity to a single deity, but to the pantheon and to the religion.

  • @mercury ranique.2170 said:
    A Norn does not believe in both the spirits of the wild and the 6 human gods. If he would, he would most likely be seen as wierd and outcasted.

    There is a line between believing something exists, and worshipping an entity as a deity.

    Norn can totally believe in both spirits of the wilds, and human gods (and some of norns would actually be silly not to), but one trying to worship both at once would be looked weirdly at.

    As for Dragonic worship within norn specifically, let us not forget that were already norns - since vanilla - worshipping ED, and believing it's completely in line with all the spirits of the wild worship - to be precise - sons of svanir. Norn members of Crystal Bloom could easilly use same logic to worship Aurene, although I don't think She would like being worshipped this way.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2021

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:
    With Exclusivity I did not mean monotheistic. Even with a pantheon, there is exclusivity. The example from the Bible/Thora was maybe ill-chosen.
    It is mostly a regional thing. In Greece they believed in the ancient greek gods. they did not believe in e.g. any norse Gods. society would not really except it. In Europe, on the places where roman catholics mix with protestants, for a long time, they lived in bubles (a catholic would only go to catholic shops, kids to catholic schools, etc). In some parts this rivalry is still happening (e.g. northern ireland).

    Greeks actually have a pretty solid history of syncretism and appropriation in their myths, though it doesn't get highlighted nearly as much as Romans doing so. Most Classical Greek gods come from Mycenaean Greece gods with small to major rewriting (Dionysus probably being the biggest rewriting, but other things include Poseidon being the chief god and god of the underworld while Hades was completely MIA), but some solidly come from other cultures, chief among them being Aphrodite, who is derived from the Phoenician goddess of love, Astarte (who in turn was taken from Ishtar from Mesopotamian cultures), likely around the same time the Greece took the Phoenician alphabet in the dark ages following the collapse of the Bronze Age.

    Another example would be a couple ancient Greek literature pieces citing stories where the gods took refuge from Typhon (tl;dr the biggest baddest enemy of the Greek gods and father to all our favorite Greek monsters) during the early wars by shapeshifting as animals in lands south of the Mediterranean. You can more or less guess which gods shapeshifted into what - Hades into a jackal, Zeus into a ram, Artemis into a cat - basically being Classical Greece's way of saying "you see those animal-headed gods in Egypt? Yeah, they're actually the same gods we worship."

    In regards to Greece views on Norse gods, there are actually some texts which proclaim that one of Hermes' many disguises while wandering the world is Odin, likely because both gods had this habit of pretending to be mortal travelers showing up from distant lands in search of antics and/or knowledge. So the syncretism is there as well, despite the fact the two cultures probably didn't interact all that much.

    You can pretty much find this in most cultures, in all honesty. Even Christianity does this, but instead of proclaiming "that's just another name for God", they have the habit of saying "that's just another name for Satan's servants". Though there is this typical association of "big dude in clouds = divine figure". There are even some texts which attempt to associate Zeus and Odin to god in the Middle Ages.

    A Norn does not believe in both the spirits of the wild and the 6 human gods. If he would, he would most likely be seen as wierd and outcasted.

    Not very likely. It is actually firmly canon lore that the norn view the Six Gods as "Spirits of Action" and refer to them by their title/what they represent rather than by name - sadly, they kinda glossed over this when the PC meets Kormir and Balthazar in PoF, but managed to hit the charr reaction to "pfft, yeah, 'a god'" pretty well. Humans believe the Spirits of the Wild fall under Melandru's domains, and thus function as servants or avatars of Melandru to some degree; but norn would view the Six Gods as fellow spirits.

    Would a norn be very likely to revere the Spirits of Actions? Not very likely. After all, while Death, Knowledge, War, Nature, and Life are things in your day to day, the spirit themselves are pretty quiet. But would a norn be considered weird and outcasted for it? Not likely, after all, the norn aren't outcasted for revering Jormag as the Spirit of Dragon - not until they do something cruel to others, at least.

    And on norn in particular, given that there are already many who believe in a Spirit of Dragon, and there is also a solid belief that Spirits of the Wild can die and be reborn (there were some Owl Shamans in core/Season 1 hoping to "bring Owl back from death"), some norn could pretty easily adopt Aurene as a new Spirit of Dragon, reborn from a twisted past.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Think of it more that they see Aurine as a saviour rather than a God or divine being.. they don't worship her in the same sense that Humans worship the divines.. it's not a religion.. but more that they admire her, respect her and believe that following her and helping her is the right path to peace and the end of the Elder Dragon threat.

    What Aurine represents to people most of all is hope.