EoD expansion should have new RAID — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Fractals/Dungeons/Strike Missions/Raids

EoD expansion should have new RAID

It's been ages since we had a new RAID. I think the expansion should be providing challenging end-game content again, given the failure of strikes and DRMs...I personally think that raids and fractal CMs keep the game alive, (Sunqua is a great addition), because casuals just log in to play through the story and some events and leave, but RAIDING has built a nice dedicated community, there are discords/guilds that specialize on raiding. This game type cannot be ignored, it gives the full fetched combat experience of the elite specs that you cannot really enjoy in open world etc. Please ANET, new RAID.

<13456713

Comments

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    we already know what raid will be. Also, as I say that get solid info, that all bosses in that wing will be tengu

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    LFR wouldn't resolve anything and would be a complete mess to implement.

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    LFR won’t change anything in Guild wars 2. The game is not made to make you play open world just so that you can advance to raids and frankly easy raids in Gw2 would be the equivalent of having more strike misions.

    At this point, what they really need to do in EoD, if they have any interest to have more players in raids and 10 man content in general, is to basically reproduce what they did with the start of of the Icebrood saga: have tuned-up version in strikes of some bosses that players battle in open world and design a reward scheme that involves playing both content extensively. Just need one closed instance for one 10 man boss fight and throughout a map you could find up to 5 of these instances.
    Other than that maybe they could add a reason for guilds to play the existing raid content outside of the weekly clear.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2021

    @yukarishura.4790 said:
    ... I personally think that raids and fractal CMs keep the game alive, (Sunqua is a great addition), because casuals just log in to play through the story and some events and leave, but RAIDING has built a nice dedicated community, there are discords/guilds that specialize on raiding. This game type cannot be ignored, it gives the full fetched combat experience of the elite specs that you cannot really enjoy in open world etc. Please ANET, new RAID.

    What keeps the game alive is that people buy gems. It's got nothing to do with who's in a 'nice dedicated community'.

    This game type can't be ignored? I beg to differ SIGNIFICANTLY given that it's been ignored for years and there have been nothing remotely catastrophic happen because of it.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • yukarishura.4790yukarishura.4790 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @Obtena.7952 Also go to LFG: you ALWAYS see at least 10 raiding squads, and when you go to open world kitten you see BARELY anyone doing METAS. So know tell me why raiding is dead, if you do not raid yourself, then u should shut up.
    @Astralporing.1957

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yukarishura.4790 said:
    @Obtena.7952 Also go to LFG: you ALWAYS see at least 10 raiding squads, and when you go to open world kitten you see BARELY anyone doing METAS. So know tell me why raiding is dead, if you do not raid yourself, then u should shut up.

    10 LFGs? Must be EU. All I ever see in LFG for NA are guilds selling clears.

    Also, plenty of metas are being done all the time, even for old content like Orr. Maybe you need to get out of the aerodrome a bit more.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm sure people asking for easy mode/ story mode Raids are enjoying Strike Missions daily, showing Arenanet how much of the playerbase is interested in easier instanced content. If you don't, then I'm not sure why you think an easier version of Raids would be any different.

  • yukarishura.4790yukarishura.4790 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I'm sure people asking for easy mode/ story mode Raids are enjoying Strike Missions daily, showing Arenanet how much of the playerbase is interested in easier instanced content. If you don't, then I'm not sure why you think an easier version of Raids would be any different.

    raids are already easy

    10 LFGs? Must be EU. All I ever see in LFG for NA are guilds selling clears.

    Also, plenty of metas are being done all the time, even for old content like Orr. Maybe you need to get out of the aerodrome a bit more.

    not true, I check LFG during the entire day and there is maximum of like 1 squad per meta during the day, TT is practically done by only one european guild.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    This game type can't be ignored? I beg to differ SIGNIFICANTLY given that it's been ignored for years and there have been nothing remotely catastrophic happen because of it.

    I don't know what you classify a >40% yearly revenue drop since HoT days and layoffs of ~1/3rd the company over those same years as, but catastrophic seems extremely fitting to me.
    Do I entirely attribute that to the abandonment of endgame content, no absolutely not, that would be foolish.
    Do I think that would have been significantly lessened though if Anet had instead focused on maybe just one or two future/side projects while dedicating the remaining resources on maintaining some of the most dedicated and engaged parts of the community via the content that also by far gets the most eyes on it from outside of the game (and community building content in general)? Without a doubt.

    See, the key part here would be not wasting resources on side projects that didn't pan out. And spending those resources not on "maintaining some of the most dedicated and engaged parts of the community", but on doing the next expansion. It was the cancelling 3rd expac act that almost drove them under, not abandoning raids. Which can be clearl shown by the fact that as soon as they announced that they will be doing the expansion, their finances suddenly recovered. Even though raids were still abandoned, with no sign it's going to change.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Raizel.1839Raizel.1839 Member ✭✭✭

    No thanks, raids in this game have failed, with only a litttle % of population playing them.
    Better to include something more accessible in EoD.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    This game type can't be ignored? I beg to differ SIGNIFICANTLY given that it's been ignored for years and there have been nothing remotely catastrophic happen because of it.

    I don't know what you classify a >40% yearly revenue drop since HoT days and layoffs of ~1/3rd the company over those same years as, but catastrophic seems extremely fitting to me.
    Do I entirely attribute that to the abandonment of endgame content, no absolutely not, that would be foolish.
    Do I think that would have been significantly lessened though if Anet had instead focused on maybe just one or two future/side projects while dedicating the remaining resources on maintaining some of the most dedicated and engaged parts of the community via the content that also by far gets the most eyes on it from outside of the game (and community building content in general)? Without a doubt.

    See, the key part here would be not wasting resources on side projects that didn't pan out. And spending those resources not on "maintaining some of the most dedicated and engaged parts of the community", but on doing the next expansion. It was the cancelling 3rd expac act that almost drove them under, not abandoning raids. Which can be clearl shown by the fact that as soon as they announced that they will be doing the expansion, their finances suddenly recovered. Even though raids were still abandoned, with no sign it's going to change.

    Which explains the sever drop in revenue, but not the continuous decline before.

    Careful with those "recovery" explanations. The revenue "recovered" during a pandemic to before announcement levels, which were still in constant decline. Hardly a strong foundation for an argument. Meanwhile the "recovered" revenue has been on a constant decline too, which mirrors pre announcement revenue shrinkage. That's not announcement related but rather in indicator of likely player loss, which has not been stemmed. We can obviously only speculate which type of players are leaving, but suffice to say, I doubt losing dedicated players of niche modes is healthy.

    The change in living world achievements and tacked on "challenge" modes might fill in the rest of the mosaic as to which niche players are supposed to be kept occupied until some serious content releases. Let's face it: if all this game needed to be successful is the drop in and out open world crowd, the recent Saga and releases would have looked way way way different.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    And spending those resources not on "maintaining some of the most dedicated and engaged parts of the community", but on doing the next expansion. It was the cancelling 3rd expac act that almost drove them under, not abandoning raids. Which can be clearl shown by the fact that as soon as they announced that they will be doing the expansion, their finances suddenly recovered. Even though raids were still abandoned, with no sign it's going to change.

    I wouldn't use the word "recovered", at least not yet, there was an increase in Q3 2020, but in Q4 2020 we are back to 2019 levels. If we take the yearly revenue the difference between 2019 and 2020 is very little and 2020 is still their second worst year, with 2019 being the worst. With Q4 2019 being the worst quarter and Q1 2020 being the 2nd worst. So it was there at the end of 2019/start of 2020 that we saw a great decrease in revenue.

    Maybe, just maybe, because they bundled Heart of Thorns with the purchase of Path of Fire in August 2019. Something that has little to nothing to do with content released. So that drop in Q4 2019/Q1 2020 could very easily be attributed to that. It's good though that since then the game recovered from those losses.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which explains the sever drop in revenue, but not the continuous decline before.

    Careful with those "recovery" explanations. The revenue "recovered" during a pandemic to before announcement levels, which were still in constant decline. Hardly a strong foundation for an argument. Meanwhile the "recovered" revenue has been on a constant decline too, which mirrors pre announcement revenue shrinkage.

    Notice that the same shrinkage happened during raids "peak time" as well. It is just something that seems to happen in-between expansions. It's the expansions, not raid releases, that cause population/revenue spikes.

    This happens in practically any MMORPG, btw - the content in-between expansions is mostly there to slow/delay the decay. It does not bring in new players, nor it brings back old players that temporarily stopped playing. It's always expansions that mark the point at which new players come/old players return. Why is that so, i won't speculate here (as it is big enough a topic to be worth a completely separate thread), but that's how it is. GW2 is not an exception.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    With Q4 2019 being the worst quarter and Q1 2020 being the 2nd worst. So it was there at the end of 2019/start of 2020 that we saw a great decrease in revenue.

    Isn't that because it was the announcement for the IBS (30th of August, 2019, iirc) that finally made people realize that the earlier hints about expansion being cancelled are not just hints, but a reality? Is it accident that the revenue started to get better shortly after they announced that there will be an expansion after all?

    Of course, there were a few other things that undermined people's trust in the game around that time - MO leaving (and then MZ ninja leaving shortly after) certainly didn;t help either. Until expansion announcement a lot of people honestly didn't believe this game had any future beyond LS5, and talks about maintenance mode were a daily occurence. Which definitely wasn't helping revenue at all.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which explains the sever drop in revenue, but not the continuous decline before.

    Careful with those "recovery" explanations. The revenue "recovered" during a pandemic to before announcement levels, which were still in constant decline. Hardly a strong foundation for an argument. Meanwhile the "recovered" revenue has been on a constant decline too, which mirrors pre announcement revenue shrinkage.

    Notice that the same shrinkage happened during raids "peak time" as well. It is just something that seems to happen in-between expansions. It's the expansions, not raid releases, that cause population/revenue spikes.

    This happens in practically any MMORPG, btw - the content in-between expansions is mostly there to slow/delay the decay. It does not bring in new players, nor it brings back old players that temporarily stopped playing. It's always expansions that mark the point at which new players come/old players return. Why is that so, i won't speculate here (as it is big enough a topic to be worth a completely separate thread), but that's how it is. GW2 is not an exception.

    Sure, thus the question is which players and how players can be kept entertained or engaged with the game longer. Thus we are back to dedicated players sticking with the game longer, being in general more forgiving and appeased with less content, until shunned away.

    Again, the recent shift in type of content delivery AND extent of grind required would indicated that a more dedicated crowd is desired by the developers (maybe even required). Raiders were/are certainly part of that crowd in the past given the dedication with minimum content provided. WvW and Spvp were other niche modes. The regular "I will drop in every few months occasional player" absolutely does not qualify. Looking at story completion rates the part of the community completing those is not even that much larger than the other mentioned niches.

    If you honestly believe that this game can survive without catering to dedicated niche groups, I am sure we will soon see where this leads to. That is unless the developers disagree and start catering to niche dedicated players again. I'm sure the expansion will be very enlightening in this regard since it will hopefully provide a baseline for what to expect in the future.

    In the end we are all subject to our subjective bubbles and communities. For example: I know a lot of dedicated players who spend regular money on this game. I wouldn't call any of them, or myself, a whale, but approximately in the area of a subscription based MMORPGs (so give or take around 300 bucks per year). Most of those players are about to leave or have left, unrelated to the IBS lack of open world content. Some will return to check out the expansion, and then leave again because the story keeps one entertained only so long and without niche content which took the majority of their time there is no reason to stick around.

    Which also begs the question: how many players are advocating for things on these forums while not spending a single dime on the game, yet assuming that somehow their spending behavior makes up a lucrative bracket and somehow can sustain the studio. That's absolutely without judgement, given the game is monetized the way it is, which I find perfectly fine (though I will be honest, a subscription in favor of some gem store changes has had me thinking over the last few years as monetization becomes more aggressive). It just makes me wonder how much thought is put into this aspect from some of our forum crowd. It's very easy to scream:"I don't want that type of content in my MMORPG." all the while not supporting the developer or the studio the least bit.

  • yukarishura.4790yukarishura.4790 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which explains the sever drop in revenue, but not the continuous decline before.

    Careful with those "recovery" explanations. The revenue "recovered" during a pandemic to before announcement levels, which were still in constant decline. Hardly a strong foundation for an argument. Meanwhile the "recovered" revenue has been on a constant decline too, which mirrors pre announcement revenue shrinkage.

    Notice that the same shrinkage happened during raids "peak time" as well. It is just something that seems to happen in-between expansions. It's the expansions, not raid releases, that cause population/revenue spikes.

    This happens in practically any MMORPG, btw - the content in-between expansions is mostly there to slow/delay the decay. It does not bring in new players, nor it brings back old players that temporarily stopped playing. It's always expansions that mark the point at which new players come/old players return. Why is that so, i won't speculate here (as it is big enough a topic to be worth a completely separate thread), but that's how it is. GW2 is not an exception.

    Sure, thus the question is which players and how players can be kept entertained or engaged with the game longer. Thus we are back to dedicated players sticking with the game longer, being in general more forgiving and appeased with less content, until shunned away.

    Again, the recent shift in type of content delivery AND extent of grind required would indicated that a more dedicated crowd is desired. Raiders were/are certainly that crowd, so far. The regular "I will drop in every few months occasional player" absolutely does not qualify.

    If you honestly believe that this game can survive without catering to dedicated niche groups, I am sure we will soon see where this leads to. That is unless the developers disagree and start catering to niche dedicated players again.

    In the end we are all subject to our subjective bubbles and communities. For example: I know a lot of dedicated players who spend regular money on this game. I wouldn't call any of them, or myself, a whale, but approximately in the area of a subscription based MMORPGs (so give or take around 300 bucks per year). Most of those players are about to leave or have left, unrelated to the IBS lack of open world content. Some will return to check out the expansion, and then leave again because the story keeps one entertained only so long and without niche content which took the majority of their time there is no reason to stick around.

    so true, and imagine, how can you potentially enjoy the full combat and the new elite specs without new raids?? why even look forward to new elite specs if we are just going to be using them to auto attack on map farming metas..., these players who are casuals complain raids take time but in fact, 2h of drizzlewood or whatever farm they are doing takes more time, and it's time gated...

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @yukarishura.4790 said:
    @Obtena.7952 Also go to LFG: you ALWAYS see at least 10 raiding squads, and when you go to open world kitten you see BARELY anyone doing METAS. So know tell me why raiding is dead, if you do not raid yourself, then u should shut up.

    The issue here is revenues and how many teams sitting on LFG doesn't mean a thing to that.

    Who the hell is gonna play for a story and few cosmetics??

    Apparently, more people than those who raid. Look, it comes down to what makes money and what doesn't. If Raids was making Anet bankloads of money ... you would have them as fast as they could pump them out.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @Asum.4960 said:
    And you don't think there is a correlation between dedication, investment and community to player retention and with that spending at all?

    If there is, neither you, I or anyone else knows what it is ... so any argument someone is going to make with it is highly questionable in the first place. I do know one thing ... players don't need to be part of a 'nice, dedicated community' to buy gems ... so that's definitely a ridiculous relation.

    Do I think that would have been significantly lessened though if Anet had instead focused on maybe just one or two future/side projects while dedicating the remaining resources on maintaining some of the most dedicated and engaged parts of the community via the content that also by far gets the most eyes on it from outside of the game (and community building content in general)? Without a doubt.

    Maybe ... but who's to say those future side projects must be raids?

    It's nonsense to identify all the bad stuff happening and making baseless claims it has something to do with a lack of raid development. If raids were worth the return on Anet's investment ... they wouldn't have gone away ... if anything they would have pushed that content more if it's as wildly successful as proponents continue to proclaim they were. It's that simple. Raids simply were not worth their effort to continue making.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    And you don't think there is a correlation between dedication, investment and community to player retention and with that spending at all?

    If there is, neither you, I or anyone else knows what it is ... so any argument someone is going to make with it is highly questionable in the first place. I do know one thing ... players don't need to be part of a 'nice, dedicated community' to buy gems ... so that's definitely a ridiculous relation.

    There is a difference between acknowledging something but not being able to quantify it and strait out claiming it has no relevance. You might want to reevaluate where your stance is on this.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    And you don't think there is a correlation between dedication, investment and community to player retention and with that spending at all?

    If there is, neither you, I or anyone else knows what it is ... so any argument someone is going to make with it is highly questionable in the first place. I do know one thing ... players don't need to be part of a 'nice, dedicated community' to buy gems ... so that's definitely a ridiculous relation.

    There is a difference between acknowledging something but not being able to quantify it and strait out claiming it has no relevance. You might want to reevaluate where your stance is on this.

    my stance doesn't change what I'm saying ... if raids were making Anet money to make their development worth it for Anet, we would have raids. No one should be trying to claim people in 'nice, dedicated communities' buy gems at a higher rate than those that aren't to justify a game element they want. That's about as biased an argument you can find on the forums.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    This game type can't be ignored? I beg to differ SIGNIFICANTLY given that it's been ignored for years and there have been nothing remotely catastrophic happen because of it.

    I don't know what you classify a >40% yearly revenue drop since HoT days and layoffs of ~1/3rd the company over those same years as, but catastrophic seems extremely fitting to me.
    Do I entirely attribute that to the abandonment of endgame content, no absolutely not, that would be foolish.
    Do I think that would have been significantly lessened though if Anet had instead focused on maybe just one or two future/side projects while dedicating the remaining resources on maintaining some of the most dedicated and engaged parts of the community via the content that also by far gets the most eyes on it from outside of the game (and community building content in general)? Without a doubt.

    See, the key part here would be not wasting resources on side projects that didn't pan out. And spending those resources not on "maintaining some of the most dedicated and engaged parts of the community", but on doing the next expansion. It was the cancelling 3rd expac act that almost drove them under, not abandoning raids. Which can be clearl shown by the fact that as soon as they announced that they will be doing the expansion, their finances suddenly recovered. Even though raids were still abandoned, with no sign it's going to change.

    The lack of expansion was a major factor, but the blip back also comes in what an expansion represents. Look anywhere outside of the forums (and to some extend here too), and what you will read, hear and see is a substantial amount people having hope for the expansion, for Anet to return to Raids, to release Alliances, to turn the ship around with more longterm engaging content.
    That is why many are excited (as well as content such as elite specs always refreshing old hardcore content to some degree ofc).
    And yes, revenue is going to spike with it's release regardless, but as I said, I'm pretty sure it will be just another flash in the pan if it can't sustain players.
    It really doesn't take much to realise that if it's mostly a single player experience that players play through once without engaging much with other players, forming communities, and getting into more engaging long term content, that a vast majority of them will soon be gone again after, and revenue along with them.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which explains the sever drop in revenue, but not the continuous decline before.

    Careful with those "recovery" explanations. The revenue "recovered" during a pandemic to before announcement levels, which were still in constant decline. Hardly a strong foundation for an argument. Meanwhile the "recovered" revenue has been on a constant decline too, which mirrors pre announcement revenue shrinkage.

    Notice that the same shrinkage happened during raids "peak time" as well. It is just something that seems to happen in-between expansions. It's the expansions, not raid releases, that cause population/revenue spikes.

    This happens in practically any MMORPG, btw - the content in-between expansions is mostly there to slow/delay the decay. It does not bring in new players, nor it brings back old players that temporarily stopped playing. It's always expansions that mark the point at which new players come/old players return. Why is that so, i won't speculate here (as it is big enough a topic to be worth a completely separate thread), but that's how it is. GW2 is not an exception.

    Yes, decline between expansions is natural, the speed and amount of which isn't. It's like you are mixing up climate with weather/seasons.
    HoT was followed by some of, if not the worst content draught in the game's history, yet revenue didn't decline nearly as low. Why is that? Because HoT launched with and provided more engaging long term, community building and endgame content, sustaining a broader amount of players and allowing players to sustain each other via communities.
    PoF was directly followed by yet more open world/Story content with LW, as well as releasing arguably the biggest cash cow in the games history, mount skins. Yet with more and more broadly appealing content, peaked lower and dropped down much lower.
    At that time the massive exodus of hardcore players was palpable, Guilds falling apart/dead, communities giving up, Raids groups merging/falling apart, static members leaving faster than newcomers could be recruited, LFG's becoming more and more hostile and limited (and seemingly more gating) as only the absolute diehard hardcore players still stuck around while the average hardcore player largely fell away, and so on.
    This is not a healthy or sustainable place for the game, and even Anet has made the rare public statement on the forums that they realise that they need to cater more to the dedicated hardcore audience niches following this time, along the expansion announcement.

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    And you don't think there is a correlation between dedication, investment and community to player retention and with that spending at all?

    If there is, neither you, I or anyone else knows what it is ... so any argument someone is going to make with it is highly questionable in the first place. I do know one thing ... players don't need to be part of a 'nice, dedicated community' to buy gems ... so that's definitely a ridiculous relation.

    Industry data at least shows that the overwhelming majority does not spend much or even any at all on free to play/buy to play games, save for the very dedicated and a handful of so called whales.
    Additionally it doesn't take much to recognize that players who are highly engaged/part of communities and constantly engage with the game for sometimes up to hours daily have much more opportunity to be engaged by the gemstore than players casually checking in every few months for more story.
    Sure, catering to that as well is important too, since while it likely is incredibly low per player spending, the mass of that absolutely is relevant, but if the last years have taught us anything, it's that GW2 isn't some magical exception where that alone is enough.

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    Do I think that would have been significantly lessened though if Anet had instead focused on maybe just one or two future/side projects while dedicating the remaining resources on maintaining some of the most dedicated and engaged parts of the community via the content that also by far gets the most eyes on it from outside of the game (and community building content in general)? Without a doubt.

    Maybe ... but who's to say those future side projects must be raids?

    It's nonsense to identify all the bad stuff happening and making baseless claims it has something to do with a lack of raid development. If raids were worth the return on Anet's investment ... they wouldn't have gone away ... if anything they would have pushed that content more if it's as wildly successful as proponents continue to proclaim they were. It's that simple. Raids simply were not worth their effort to continue making.

    The side projects referred to are their since cancelled other game projects.

    As for maintaining GW2, I'm not saying it has to be Raids, Raids just happen to fit the bill on almost all fronts, from being community building, highly engaging and satisfying to a currently not catered to at all consumer, while already being established as system in the game.
    Fractals, more, and more, hardcore Guild Systems and activities, Alliances and the like fit the bill too in many ways. I'd even say it can't just be one of those at this point.

    Raids are not a magic pill that Anet could release and all will be fine. I don't think anyone is arguing that.
    That it's lack is a contributing factor for the decline along other community building and long term content is hard to deny though, especially in the face of the design and content variety of all successful MMO's, which are games so big that they live and die by their variety of content and how many different niches of players they appeal to.

    We do not have no Raids (Fractals, Guild Activities, WvW, PvP, Stronghold, Dungeons, Bounties, Adventures, Strikes etc.) not because they didn't make Anet money, but because Anet thought they could get by with just LW while transitioning to other (since largely cancelled) properties.
    You do know that Season 4 was internally at times considered the end of GW2's story with Aurene's ascend, right? That no expansion, non of all of that content and then Icebrood wasn't necessarily a conscious choice, but scrambling for time after the things they had shifted all those developers and resourced to didn't work out, resulting in them being layed off?

    Is that still just not common knowledge in the community, or why do people keep making these points as if Anet wilfully abandoned all this content for just not working out, while being focused on GW2 longterm?

    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • yukarishura.4790yukarishura.4790 Member ✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    This game type can't be ignored? I beg to differ SIGNIFICANTLY given that it's been ignored for years and there have been nothing remotely catastrophic happen because of it.

    I don't know what you classify a >40% yearly revenue drop since HoT days and layoffs of ~1/3rd the company over those same years as, but catastrophic seems extremely fitting to me.
    Do I entirely attribute that to the abandonment of endgame content, no absolutely not, that would be foolish.
    Do I think that would have been significantly lessened though if Anet had instead focused on maybe just one or two future/side projects while dedicating the remaining resources on maintaining some of the most dedicated and engaged parts of the community via the content that also by far gets the most eyes on it from outside of the game (and community building content in general)? Without a doubt.

    See, the key part here would be not wasting resources on side projects that didn't pan out. And spending those resources not on "maintaining some of the most dedicated and engaged parts of the community", but on doing the next expansion. It was the cancelling 3rd expac act that almost drove them under, not abandoning raids. Which can be clearl shown by the fact that as soon as they announced that they will be doing the expansion, their finances suddenly recovered. Even though raids were still abandoned, with no sign it's going to change.

    The lack of expansion was a major factor, but the blip back also comes in what an expansion represents. Look anywhere outside of the forums (and to some extend here too), and what you will read, hear and see is a substantial amount people having hope for the expansion, for Anet to return to Raids, to release Alliances, to turn the ship around with more longterm engaging content.
    That is why many are excited (as well as content such as elite specs always refreshing old hardcore content to some degree ofc).
    And yes, revenue is going to spike with it's release regardless, but as I said, I'm pretty sure it will be just another flash in the pan if it can't sustain players.
    It really doesn't take much to realise that if it's mostly a single player experience that players play through once without engaging much with other players, forming communities, and getting into more engaging long term content, that a vast majority of them will soon be gone again after, and revenue along with them.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which explains the sever drop in revenue, but not the continuous decline before.

    Careful with those "recovery" explanations. The revenue "recovered" during a pandemic to before announcement levels, which were still in constant decline. Hardly a strong foundation for an argument. Meanwhile the "recovered" revenue has been on a constant decline too, which mirrors pre announcement revenue shrinkage.

    Notice that the same shrinkage happened during raids "peak time" as well. It is just something that seems to happen in-between expansions. It's the expansions, not raid releases, that cause population/revenue spikes.

    This happens in practically any MMORPG, btw - the content in-between expansions is mostly there to slow/delay the decay. It does not bring in new players, nor it brings back old players that temporarily stopped playing. It's always expansions that mark the point at which new players come/old players return. Why is that so, i won't speculate here (as it is big enough a topic to be worth a completely separate thread), but that's how it is. GW2 is not an exception.

    Yes, decline between expansions is natural, the speed and amount of which isn't. It's like you are mixing up climate with weather/seasons.
    HoT was followed by some of, if not the worst content draught in the game's history, yet revenue didn't decline nearly as low. Why is that? Because HoT launched with and provided more engaging long term, community building and endgame content, sustaining a broader amount of players and allowing players to sustain each other via communities.
    PoF was directly followed by yet more open world/Story content with LW, as well as releasing arguably the biggest cash cow in the games history, mount skins. Yet with more and more broadly appealing content, peaked lower and dropped down much lower.
    At that time the massive exodus of hardcore players was palpable, Guilds falling apart/dead, communities giving up, Raids groups merging/falling apart, static members leaving faster than newcomers could be recruited, LFG's becoming more and more hostile and limited (and seemingly more gating) as only the absolute diehard hardcore players still stuck around while the average hardcore player largely fell away, and so on.
    This is not a healthy or sustainable place for the game, and even Anet has made the rare public statement on the forums that they realise that they need to cater more to the dedicated hardcore audience niches following this time, along the expansion announcement.

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    And you don't think there is a correlation between dedication, investment and community to player retention and with that spending at all?

    If there is, neither you, I or anyone else knows what it is ... so any argument someone is going to make with it is highly questionable in the first place. I do know one thing ... players don't need to be part of a 'nice, dedicated community' to buy gems ... so that's definitely a ridiculous relation.

    Industry data at least shows that the overwhelming majority does not spend much or even any at all on free to play/buy to play games, save for the very dedicated and a handful of so called whales.
    Additionally it doesn't take much to recognize that players who are highly engaged/part of communities and constantly engage with the game for sometimes up to hours daily have much more opportunity to be engaged by the gemstore than players casually checking in every few months for more story.
    Sure, catering to that as well is important too, since while it likely is incredibly low per player spending, the mass of that absolutely is relevant, but if the last years have taught us anything, it's that GW2 isn't some magical exception where that alone is enough.

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    Do I think that would have been significantly lessened though if Anet had instead focused on maybe just one or two future/side projects while dedicating the remaining resources on maintaining some of the most dedicated and engaged parts of the community via the content that also by far gets the most eyes on it from outside of the game (and community building content in general)? Without a doubt.

    Maybe ... but who's to say those future side projects must be raids?

    It's nonsense to identify all the bad stuff happening and making baseless claims it has something to do with a lack of raid development. If raids were worth the return on Anet's investment ... they wouldn't have gone away ... if anything they would have pushed that content more if it's as wildly successful as proponents continue to proclaim they were. It's that simple. Raids simply were not worth their effort to continue making.

    The side projects referred to are their since cancelled other game projects.

    As for maintaining GW2, I'm not saying it has to be Raids, Raids just happen to fit the bill on almost all fronts, from being community building, highly engaging and satisfying to a currently not catered to at all consumer, while already being established as system in the game.
    Fractals, more, and more, hardcore Guild Systems and activities, Alliances and the like fit the bill too in many ways. I'd even say it can't just be one of those at this point.

    Raids are not a magic pill that Anet could release and all will be fine. I don't think anyone is arguing that.
    That it's lack is a contributing factor for the decline along other community building and long term content is hard to deny though, especially in the face of the design and content variety of all successful MMO's, which are games so big that they live and die by their variety of content and how many different niches of players they appeal to.

    finally someone who makes sense here

  • yukarishura.4790yukarishura.4790 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021

    also, even for strikes and new DRMs ppl ask for LI/LD, raid currency has become an equivalent of proving you are not a CASUAL who auto attacks and understands the combat. The combat of gw2 can best be experienced in raids, but sure, if you are telling me they make money from a story then it says enough about the community

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @yukarishura.4790 said:
    also, even for strikes and new DRMs ppl ask for LI/LD, raid currency has become an equivalent of proving you are not a CASUAL who auto attacks and understands the combat. The combat of gw2 can best be experienced in raids, but sure, if you are telling me they make money from a story with poor voice acting then it says enough about the community

    I don't think us vs them rhetoric is productive from either side tbh.

    GW2 is a wonderful game that can cater to a great many audiences, and that's what GW2 needs to do to have a future.
    Not a community squabbling over who gets all the shinies.

    Having LW is okay, having Raids is okay too. So are Alliances/WvW, PvP, Fractals, Guild Missions and so on. There is a reason these different types of content exist. Anet just needs to use them if they want to keep going with this.

    An MMO doesn't work as an "on the side thing". I agree Anet needs to eventually branch out into other properties to secure their company for the future, they just way overcommited.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @yukarishura.4790 said:
    also, even for strikes and new DRMs ppl ask for LI/LD, raid currency has become an equivalent of proving you are not a CASUAL who auto attacks and understands the combat. The combat of gw2 can best be experienced in raids, but sure, if you are telling me they make money from a story with poor voice acting then it says enough about the community

    And what's your point here? You disliking how some players like to play is not going to change their habits in the slightest. Just like them disliking the content you play will not impact the fact you like it.

    The fact that someone, or a group of someones "plays the game wrong" (according to you) does not interest anyone (again, besides you) you in the slightest - and Anet the least. Developer's primary concern will always be "how much money that group of players costs to retain, and how much money will they bring us back".

    So, apparently, casuals either are cheaper to satisfy than hardcores, bring more money to the table, or both. And your opinion on them is not going to affect that at all. As long as casuals are bringing enough income, Anet is not going to stop to cater to that part of the community.

    Notice, btw, that Anet dropping Raids means they considered them to be too costly for the income they brought back. So, maybe instead of blaming casuals you should have been voting with your wallet more.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Shadowmoon.7986Shadowmoon.7986 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I just want 2 raids, Urgoz and Kanaxai. If Anet is going full member berries, at least make it enjoyable. Again, I would also want to them go back to dungeons as well. Two instance clusters with 3 five man dungeons and 1 ten man raids each, one being centered on the Warden and purifying Urgoz and another centered round the Oni and finally banishing Kanaxai.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    This game type can't be ignored? I beg to differ SIGNIFICANTLY given that it's been ignored for years and there have been nothing remotely catastrophic happen because of it.

    I don't know what you classify a >40% yearly revenue drop since HoT days and layoffs of ~1/3rd the company over those same years as, but catastrophic seems extremely fitting to me.
    Do I entirely attribute that to the abandonment of endgame content, no absolutely not, that would be foolish.
    Do I think that would have been significantly lessened though if Anet had instead focused on maybe just one or two future/side projects while dedicating the remaining resources on maintaining some of the most dedicated and engaged parts of the community via the content that also by far gets the most eyes on it from outside of the game (and community building content in general)? Without a doubt.

    See, the key part here would be not wasting resources on side projects that didn't pan out. And spending those resources not on "maintaining some of the most dedicated and engaged parts of the community", but on doing the next expansion. It was the cancelling 3rd expac act that almost drove them under, not abandoning raids. Which can be clearl shown by the fact that as soon as they announced that they will be doing the expansion, their finances suddenly recovered. Even though raids were still abandoned, with no sign it's going to change.

    The lack of expansion was a major factor, but the blip back also comes in what an expansion represents. Look anywhere outside of the forums (and to some extend here too), and what you will read, hear and see is a substantial amount people having hope for the expansion, for Anet to return to Raids, to release Alliances, to turn the ship around with more longterm engaging content.
    That is why many are excited (as well as content such as elite specs always refreshing old hardcore content to some degree ofc).
    And yes, revenue is going to spike with it's release regardless, but as I said, I'm pretty sure it will be just another flash in the pan if it can't sustain players.
    It really doesn't take much to realise that if it's mostly a single player experience that players play through once without engaging much with other players, forming communities, and getting into more engaging long term content, that a vast majority of them will soon be gone again after, and revenue along with them.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which explains the sever drop in revenue, but not the continuous decline before.

    Careful with those "recovery" explanations. The revenue "recovered" during a pandemic to before announcement levels, which were still in constant decline. Hardly a strong foundation for an argument. Meanwhile the "recovered" revenue has been on a constant decline too, which mirrors pre announcement revenue shrinkage.

    Notice that the same shrinkage happened during raids "peak time" as well. It is just something that seems to happen in-between expansions. It's the expansions, not raid releases, that cause population/revenue spikes.

    This happens in practically any MMORPG, btw - the content in-between expansions is mostly there to slow/delay the decay. It does not bring in new players, nor it brings back old players that temporarily stopped playing. It's always expansions that mark the point at which new players come/old players return. Why is that so, i won't speculate here (as it is big enough a topic to be worth a completely separate thread), but that's how it is. GW2 is not an exception.

    Yes, decline between expansions is natural, the speed and amount of which isn't. It's like you are mixing up climate with weather/seasons.
    HoT was followed by some of, if not the worst content draught in the game's history, yet revenue didn't decline nearly as low. Why is that? Because HoT launched with and provided more engaging long term, community building and endgame content, sustaining a broader amount of players and allowing players to sustain each other via communities.
    PoF was directly followed by yet more open world/Story content with LW, as well as releasing arguably the biggest cash cow in the games history, mount skins. Yet with more and more broadly appealing content, peaked lower and dropped down much lower.
    At that time the massive exodus of hardcore players was palpable, Guilds falling apart/dead, communities giving up, Raids groups merging/falling apart, static members leaving faster than newcomers could be recruited, LFG's becoming more and more hostile and limited (and seemingly more gating) as only the absolute diehard hardcore players still stuck around while the average hardcore player largely fell away, and so on.
    This is not a healthy or sustainable place for the game, and even Anet has made the rare public statement on the forums that they realise that they need to cater more to the dedicated hardcore audience niches following this time, along the expansion announcement.

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    And you don't think there is a correlation between dedication, investment and community to player retention and with that spending at all?

    If there is, neither you, I or anyone else knows what it is ... so any argument someone is going to make with it is highly questionable in the first place. I do know one thing ... players don't need to be part of a 'nice, dedicated community' to buy gems ... so that's definitely a ridiculous relation.

    Industry data at least shows that the overwhelming majority does not spend much or even any at all on free to play/buy to play games, save for the very dedicated and a handful of so called whales.
    Additionally it doesn't take much to recognize that players who are highly engaged/part of communities and constantly engage with the game for sometimes up to hours daily have much more opportunity to be engaged by the gemstore than players casually checking in every few months for more story.
    Sure, catering to that as well is important too, since while it likely is incredibly low per player spending, the mass of that absolutely is relevant, but if the last years have taught us anything, it's that GW2 isn't some magical exception where that alone is enough.

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    Do I think that would have been significantly lessened though if Anet had instead focused on maybe just one or two future/side projects while dedicating the remaining resources on maintaining some of the most dedicated and engaged parts of the community via the content that also by far gets the most eyes on it from outside of the game (and community building content in general)? Without a doubt.

    Maybe ... but who's to say those future side projects must be raids?

    It's nonsense to identify all the bad stuff happening and making baseless claims it has something to do with a lack of raid development. If raids were worth the return on Anet's investment ... they wouldn't have gone away ... if anything they would have pushed that content more if it's as wildly successful as proponents continue to proclaim they were. It's that simple. Raids simply were not worth their effort to continue making.

    The side projects referred to are their since cancelled other game projects.

    As for maintaining GW2, I'm not saying it has to be Raids, Raids just happen to fit the bill on almost all fronts, from being community building, highly engaging and satisfying to a currently not catered to at all consumer, while already being established as system in the game.
    Fractals, more, and more, hardcore Guild Systems and activities, Alliances and the like fit the bill too in many ways. I'd even say it can't just be one of those at this point.

    Raids are not a magic pill that Anet could release and all will be fine. I don't think anyone is arguing that.
    That it's lack is a contributing factor for the decline along other community building and long term content is hard to deny though, especially in the face of the design and content variety of all successful MMO's, which are games so big that they live and die by their variety of content and how many different niches of players they appeal to.

    finally someone who makes sense here

    What makes sense is the relationship between content and revenues ... and acknowledging that if raids was content that made lots of revenue, we would have lots of raids. The opposite is also true. The fact that we have had negative raid development statements directly from Anet should REALLY give you MASSIVE hints as to how little raids contributed to Anet's revenue.

    The ridiculous part is the way you make casual players the scapegoat for the lack of raids, while making no acknowledgement that the real culprit is related to how raiders interact with the game and how they contribute to revenues.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yukarishura.4790 said:
    also, even for strikes and new DRMs ppl ask for LI/LD, raid currency has become an equivalent of proving you are not a CASUAL who auto attacks and understands the combat. The combat of gw2 can best be experienced in raids, but sure, if you are telling me they make money from a story with poor voice acting then it says enough about the community

    While i agree with the statement that some new raids will be healthy for the game. Your arguments for them are pretty horrible, and probably make people less likely to agree with you. I would suggest going more with cynthias and Asums approach. No discussion can be productive if one doesn't acknowledge the other sides of the argument.

    I hope this helps with further debate.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which explains the sever drop in revenue, but not the continuous decline before.

    Careful with those "recovery" explanations. The revenue "recovered" during a pandemic to before announcement levels, which were still in constant decline. Hardly a strong foundation for an argument. Meanwhile the "recovered" revenue has been on a constant decline too, which mirrors pre announcement revenue shrinkage.

    Notice that the same shrinkage happened during raids "peak time" as well. It is just something that seems to happen in-between expansions. It's the expansions, not raid releases, that cause population/revenue spikes.

    This happens in practically any MMORPG, btw - the content in-between expansions is mostly there to slow/delay the decay. It does not bring in new players, nor it brings back old players that temporarily stopped playing. It's always expansions that mark the point at which new players come/old players return. Why is that so, i won't speculate here (as it is big enough a topic to be worth a completely separate thread), but that's how it is. GW2 is not an exception.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    With Q4 2019 being the worst quarter and Q1 2020 being the 2nd worst. So it was there at the end of 2019/start of 2020 that we saw a great decrease in revenue.

    Isn't that because it was the announcement for the IBS (30th of August, 2019, iirc) that finally made people realize that the earlier hints about expansion being cancelled are not just hints, but a reality? Is it accident that the revenue started to get better shortly after they announced that there will be an expansion after all?

    Of course, there were a few other things that undermined people's trust in the game around that time - MO leaving (and then MZ ninja leaving shortly after) certainly didn;t help either. Until expansion announcement a lot of people honestly didn't believe this game had any future beyond LS5, and talks about maintenance mode were a daily occurence. Which definitely wasn't helping revenue at all.

    Isn't the discussion about raids not about gaining new people during the decay. But to slow the decay down.
    As far as i know nobodies claiming that with raids no decay would happen, just that it would be slower.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which explains the sever drop in revenue, but not the continuous decline before.

    Careful with those "recovery" explanations. The revenue "recovered" during a pandemic to before announcement levels, which were still in constant decline. Hardly a strong foundation for an argument. Meanwhile the "recovered" revenue has been on a constant decline too, which mirrors pre announcement revenue shrinkage.

    Notice that the same shrinkage happened during raids "peak time" as well. It is just something that seems to happen in-between expansions. It's the expansions, not raid releases, that cause population/revenue spikes.

    This happens in practically any MMORPG, btw - the content in-between expansions is mostly there to slow/delay the decay. It does not bring in new players, nor it brings back old players that temporarily stopped playing. It's always expansions that mark the point at which new players come/old players return. Why is that so, i won't speculate here (as it is big enough a topic to be worth a completely separate thread), but that's how it is. GW2 is not an exception.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    With Q4 2019 being the worst quarter and Q1 2020 being the 2nd worst. So it was there at the end of 2019/start of 2020 that we saw a great decrease in revenue.

    Isn't that because it was the announcement for the IBS (30th of August, 2019, iirc) that finally made people realize that the earlier hints about expansion being cancelled are not just hints, but a reality? Is it accident that the revenue started to get better shortly after they announced that there will be an expansion after all?

    Of course, there were a few other things that undermined people's trust in the game around that time - MO leaving (and then MZ ninja leaving shortly after) certainly didn;t help either. Until expansion announcement a lot of people honestly didn't believe this game had any future beyond LS5, and talks about maintenance mode were a daily occurence. Which definitely wasn't helping revenue at all.

    Isn't the discussion about raids not about gaining new people during the decay. But to slow the decay down.
    As far as i know nobodies claiming that with raids no decay would happen, just that it would be slower.

    I think the point is that decay rate is irrelevant if raids were not worth the investment to create and maintain to begin with. I mean, we see this often in this game; quests for precursors? They got THREE gen 2 legendaries with questable precursors ... and dropped the whole idea. It simply wasn't worth the effort for the engagement it offered players. That engagement is what encourages players to spend. Bottomline is that raids were just not implemented in a way to encourage enough spending from the players that did them.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which explains the sever drop in revenue, but not the continuous decline before.

    Careful with those "recovery" explanations. The revenue "recovered" during a pandemic to before announcement levels, which were still in constant decline. Hardly a strong foundation for an argument. Meanwhile the "recovered" revenue has been on a constant decline too, which mirrors pre announcement revenue shrinkage.

    Notice that the same shrinkage happened during raids "peak time" as well. It is just something that seems to happen in-between expansions. It's the expansions, not raid releases, that cause population/revenue spikes.

    This happens in practically any MMORPG, btw - the content in-between expansions is mostly there to slow/delay the decay. It does not bring in new players, nor it brings back old players that temporarily stopped playing. It's always expansions that mark the point at which new players come/old players return. Why is that so, i won't speculate here (as it is big enough a topic to be worth a completely separate thread), but that's how it is. GW2 is not an exception.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    With Q4 2019 being the worst quarter and Q1 2020 being the 2nd worst. So it was there at the end of 2019/start of 2020 that we saw a great decrease in revenue.

    Isn't that because it was the announcement for the IBS (30th of August, 2019, iirc) that finally made people realize that the earlier hints about expansion being cancelled are not just hints, but a reality? Is it accident that the revenue started to get better shortly after they announced that there will be an expansion after all?

    Of course, there were a few other things that undermined people's trust in the game around that time - MO leaving (and then MZ ninja leaving shortly after) certainly didn;t help either. Until expansion announcement a lot of people honestly didn't believe this game had any future beyond LS5, and talks about maintenance mode were a daily occurence. Which definitely wasn't helping revenue at all.

    Isn't the discussion about raids not about gaining new people during the decay. But to slow the decay down.
    As far as i know nobodies claiming that with raids no decay would happen, just that it would be slower.

    I think the point is that decay rate is irrelevant if raids were not worth the investment to create and maintain to begin with.

    That might depend more on the general population levels though. In that case raids might be worth after a new expac is released.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which explains the sever drop in revenue, but not the continuous decline before.

    Careful with those "recovery" explanations. The revenue "recovered" during a pandemic to before announcement levels, which were still in constant decline. Hardly a strong foundation for an argument. Meanwhile the "recovered" revenue has been on a constant decline too, which mirrors pre announcement revenue shrinkage.

    Notice that the same shrinkage happened during raids "peak time" as well. It is just something that seems to happen in-between expansions. It's the expansions, not raid releases, that cause population/revenue spikes.

    This happens in practically any MMORPG, btw - the content in-between expansions is mostly there to slow/delay the decay. It does not bring in new players, nor it brings back old players that temporarily stopped playing. It's always expansions that mark the point at which new players come/old players return. Why is that so, i won't speculate here (as it is big enough a topic to be worth a completely separate thread), but that's how it is. GW2 is not an exception.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    With Q4 2019 being the worst quarter and Q1 2020 being the 2nd worst. So it was there at the end of 2019/start of 2020 that we saw a great decrease in revenue.

    Isn't that because it was the announcement for the IBS (30th of August, 2019, iirc) that finally made people realize that the earlier hints about expansion being cancelled are not just hints, but a reality? Is it accident that the revenue started to get better shortly after they announced that there will be an expansion after all?

    Of course, there were a few other things that undermined people's trust in the game around that time - MO leaving (and then MZ ninja leaving shortly after) certainly didn;t help either. Until expansion announcement a lot of people honestly didn't believe this game had any future beyond LS5, and talks about maintenance mode were a daily occurence. Which definitely wasn't helping revenue at all.

    Isn't the discussion about raids not about gaining new people during the decay. But to slow the decay down.
    As far as i know nobodies claiming that with raids no decay would happen, just that it would be slower.

    I think the point is that decay rate is irrelevant if raids were not worth the investment to create and maintain to begin with.

    That might depend more on the general population levels though. In that case raids might be worth after a new expac is released.

    Maybe ... but speculation isn't a good basis to justify re-establishing failed content. Do you think it's a good bet for Anet to anticipate the people that come back for EoD will have increased interested in raiding to the point they create new ones? Why would we think it would be any different than expansion 2? IIRC, raid development dropped significantly AFTER PoF ... so my bet says raiding interest based on general population increases isn't enough.

    This debate has been had multiple times. Raiding in this game is a niche ... and clearly that niche can't sustain the development of that kind of content. Raids in their format simply does not appeal to enough people. OP has some correct indirect insights ... game is for casuals ... but raids are not for them. But make no mistake, no amount of false claims and scapegoating the OP can do will change the data that tells Anet raids aren't worth the investment to create.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    The experiment failed due to the low attention it got from the developers. Nobody knows what would've happened if the experiement got the proper attention it deserved. But at this point in time, yes revisiting Raids would be pointless, although some new form of instanced content gameplay might be introduced to bring back Urgoz/Deep, I'm sure many old Faction players would like those two places to come back in some form.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    The experiment failed due to ...

    OK ... I'm not debating why it failed because it's irrelevant. If the players interest isn't there, NO amount of dev attention will make raids interesting to enough players for raids to be a good business decision. Still trying to claim players and the way the game appeals to them aren't a factor in raids being successful content ay? If the development declined ... it was clearly because of the revenues it was generating. Again ... if raids were making Anet massive amounts of revenue ... we would have raids being developed ... LOTS of raids.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • yukarishura.4790yukarishura.4790 Member ✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:
    also, even for strikes and new DRMs ppl ask for LI/LD, raid currency has become an equivalent of proving you are not a CASUAL who auto attacks and understands the combat. The combat of gw2 can best be experienced in raids, but sure, if you are telling me they make money from a story with poor voice acting then it says enough about the community

    I don't think us vs them rhetoric is productive from either side tbh.

    GW2 is a wonderful game that can cater to a great many audiences, and that's what GW2 needs to do to have a future.
    Not a community squabbling over who gets all the shinies.

    Having LW is okay, having Raids is okay too. So are Alliances/WvW, PvP, Fractals, Guild Missions and so on. There is a reason these different types of content exist. Anet just needs to use them if they want to keep going with this.

    An MMO doesn't work as an "on the side thing". I agree Anet needs to eventually branch out into other properties to secure their company for the future, they just way overcommited.

    Yeah I agree, I play all types, including WvW, I just miss the attention to raids, but Im engaging with alll content anyways

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    The experiment failed due to the low attention it got from the developers. Nobody knows what would've happened if the experiement got the proper attention it deserved. But at this point in time, yes revisiting Raids would be pointless, although some new form of instanced content gameplay might be introduced to bring back Urgoz/Deep, I'm sure many old Faction players would like those two places to come back in some form.

    OK ... I'm not debating why it failed because it's irrelevant. If the players interest isn't there, NO amount of dev attention will make raids interesting to enough players for raids to be a good business decision. Still trying to claim players and the way the game appeals to them aren't a factor in raids ay?

    Why it failed is exactly the issue with Raids. Player interest was fine as long as attention was given, even confirmed by the developers themselves that Raids exceeded their expectations. It's when that attention stopped and the content was semi-abandoned, that participation was also lowered. Is that even under debate? Raids were murdered and is anyone's guess what kind of population they'd have without all the mismanagement, miscommunication and misuse that happened during their existence.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    The experiment failed due to the low attention it got from the developers. Nobody knows what would've happened if the experiement got the proper attention it deserved. But at this point in time, yes revisiting Raids would be pointless, although some new form of instanced content gameplay might be introduced to bring back Urgoz/Deep, I'm sure many old Faction players would like those two places to come back in some form.

    OK ... I'm not debating why it failed because it's irrelevant. If the players interest isn't there, NO amount of dev attention will make raids interesting to enough players for raids to be a good business decision. Still trying to claim players and the way the game appeals to them aren't a factor in raids ay?

    Why it failed is exactly the issue with Raids. Player interest was fine ...

    It's not about player interest ... it's about revenue. Again ... if raids were making Anet massive amounts of revenue, their raid development would reflect that. LIKEWISE ... if raids were not making Anet the revenue to justify the development ... THAT ALSO reflects the amount of raid development we currently get.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • yukarishura.4790yukarishura.4790 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    The experiment failed due to ...

    OK ... I'm not debating why it failed because it's irrelevant. If the players interest isn't there, NO amount of dev attention will make raids interesting to enough players for raids to be a good business decision. Still trying to claim players and the way the game appeals to them aren't a factor in raids being successful content ay? If the development declined ... it was clearly because of the revenues it was generating. Again ... if raids were making Anet massive amounts of revenue ... we would have raids being developed ... LOTS of raids.

    your arguments are irrelevant, if there was no interest in making raids, why would it be different to releasing stories that btw, are not making money and are not incentive enough for players? it's not just raids that are abandoned anyway, pvp, wvw and dungeons are as well. At this point, it is only casuals who log in once in a blue moon and spend some money on gems, whilst raiding even has a Raiding League. The most watched content on Twitch from this game is raiding.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which explains the sever drop in revenue, but not the continuous decline before.

    Careful with those "recovery" explanations. The revenue "recovered" during a pandemic to before announcement levels, which were still in constant decline. Hardly a strong foundation for an argument. Meanwhile the "recovered" revenue has been on a constant decline too, which mirrors pre announcement revenue shrinkage.

    Notice that the same shrinkage happened during raids "peak time" as well. It is just something that seems to happen in-between expansions. It's the expansions, not raid releases, that cause population/revenue spikes.

    This happens in practically any MMORPG, btw - the content in-between expansions is mostly there to slow/delay the decay. It does not bring in new players, nor it brings back old players that temporarily stopped playing. It's always expansions that mark the point at which new players come/old players return. Why is that so, i won't speculate here (as it is big enough a topic to be worth a completely separate thread), but that's how it is. GW2 is not an exception.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    With Q4 2019 being the worst quarter and Q1 2020 being the 2nd worst. So it was there at the end of 2019/start of 2020 that we saw a great decrease in revenue.

    Isn't that because it was the announcement for the IBS (30th of August, 2019, iirc) that finally made people realize that the earlier hints about expansion being cancelled are not just hints, but a reality? Is it accident that the revenue started to get better shortly after they announced that there will be an expansion after all?

    Of course, there were a few other things that undermined people's trust in the game around that time - MO leaving (and then MZ ninja leaving shortly after) certainly didn;t help either. Until expansion announcement a lot of people honestly didn't believe this game had any future beyond LS5, and talks about maintenance mode were a daily occurence. Which definitely wasn't helping revenue at all.

    Isn't the discussion about raids not about gaining new people during the decay. But to slow the decay down.
    As far as i know nobodies claiming that with raids no decay would happen, just that it would be slower.

    I think the point is that decay rate is irrelevant if raids were not worth the investment to create and maintain to begin with.

    That might depend more on the general population levels though. In that case raids might be worth after a new expac is released.

    Maybe ... but speculation isn't a good basis to justify re-establishing failed content. Do you think it's a good bet for Anet to anticipate the people that come back for EoD will have increased interested in raiding to the point they create new ones? Why would we think it would be any different than expansion 2? IIRC, raid development dropped significantly AFTER PoF ... so my bet says raiding interest based on general population increases isn't enough.

    This debate has been had multiple times. Raiding in this game is a niche ... and clearly that niche can't sustain the development of that kind of content. Raids in their format simply does not appeal to enough people. OP has some correct indirect insights ... game is for casuals ... but raids are not for them. But make no mistake, no amount of false claims and scapegoating the OP can do will change the data that tells Anet raids aren't worth the investment to create.

    But apparently their was enough attention just after Pof to create more raids. I'm not arguing that it isn't a niche activity. I'm arguing that right after an expac their might be enough people playing the game such that the niche is worth it for some time.
    To demonstrate by example presume that gw2 has 2500 people playing and 2 percent are raiding. That would be 50 people. Now imagine their needs to be 100 people to raid to make it word it, and an expac brings the population to 10000. then with a 2percent participation raid we would have 200, twice as much as would be worth it.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    The experiment failed due to ...

    OK ... I'm not debating why it failed because it's irrelevant. If the players interest isn't there, NO amount of dev attention will make raids interesting to enough players for raids to be a good business decision. Still trying to claim players and the way the game appeals to them aren't a factor in raids being successful content ay? If the development declined ... it was clearly because of the revenues it was generating. Again ... if raids were making Anet massive amounts of revenue ... we would have raids being developed ... LOTS of raids.

    if there was no interest in making raids, why would it be different to releasing stories that btw, are not making money and are not incentive enough for players?

    It wouldn't be different ... except you don't know if that claim is correct.

    The most watched content on Twitch from this game is raiding.

    If that was related to revenues raiders generated ... that might be a relevant point.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which explains the sever drop in revenue, but not the continuous decline before.

    Careful with those "recovery" explanations. The revenue "recovered" during a pandemic to before announcement levels, which were still in constant decline. Hardly a strong foundation for an argument. Meanwhile the "recovered" revenue has been on a constant decline too, which mirrors pre announcement revenue shrinkage.

    Notice that the same shrinkage happened during raids "peak time" as well. It is just something that seems to happen in-between expansions. It's the expansions, not raid releases, that cause population/revenue spikes.

    This happens in practically any MMORPG, btw - the content in-between expansions is mostly there to slow/delay the decay. It does not bring in new players, nor it brings back old players that temporarily stopped playing. It's always expansions that mark the point at which new players come/old players return. Why is that so, i won't speculate here (as it is big enough a topic to be worth a completely separate thread), but that's how it is. GW2 is not an exception.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    With Q4 2019 being the worst quarter and Q1 2020 being the 2nd worst. So it was there at the end of 2019/start of 2020 that we saw a great decrease in revenue.

    Isn't that because it was the announcement for the IBS (30th of August, 2019, iirc) that finally made people realize that the earlier hints about expansion being cancelled are not just hints, but a reality? Is it accident that the revenue started to get better shortly after they announced that there will be an expansion after all?

    Of course, there were a few other things that undermined people's trust in the game around that time - MO leaving (and then MZ ninja leaving shortly after) certainly didn;t help either. Until expansion announcement a lot of people honestly didn't believe this game had any future beyond LS5, and talks about maintenance mode were a daily occurence. Which definitely wasn't helping revenue at all.

    Isn't the discussion about raids not about gaining new people during the decay. But to slow the decay down.
    As far as i know nobodies claiming that with raids no decay would happen, just that it would be slower.

    I think the point is that decay rate is irrelevant if raids were not worth the investment to create and maintain to begin with.

    That might depend more on the general population levels though. In that case raids might be worth after a new expac is released.

    Maybe ... but speculation isn't a good basis to justify re-establishing failed content. Do you think it's a good bet for Anet to anticipate the people that come back for EoD will have increased interested in raiding to the point they create new ones? Why would we think it would be any different than expansion 2? IIRC, raid development dropped significantly AFTER PoF ... so my bet says raiding interest based on general population increases isn't enough.

    This debate has been had multiple times. Raiding in this game is a niche ... and clearly that niche can't sustain the development of that kind of content. Raids in their format simply does not appeal to enough people. OP has some correct indirect insights ... game is for casuals ... but raids are not for them. But make no mistake, no amount of false claims and scapegoating the OP can do will change the data that tells Anet raids aren't worth the investment to create.

    But apparently their was enough attention just after Pof to create more raids. I'm not arguing that it isn't a niche activity. I'm arguing that right after an expac their might be enough people playing the game such that the niche is worth it for some time.
    To demonstrate by example presume that gw2 has 2500 people playing and 2 percent are raiding. That would be 50 people. Now imagine their needs to be 100 people to raid to make it word it, and an expac brings the population to 10000. then with a 2percent participation raid we would have 200, twice as much as would be worth it.

    Maybe ... that just goes back to my point ... Anet has whatever data they need to convince themselves raids aren't good in GW2. We don't. There is nothing to suggest for a short amount of time after a new expansion, it will be 'good' to make a new raid for Anet because the people that are coming back aren't doing it for a couple of new raids until Anet drops them again like they did after POF. Raids are just NOT sustainable content in this game ... if it was, we would STILL have them.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement. Will a new expansion make it worth it? What would make you think so?

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • yukarishura.4790yukarishura.4790 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    I know many guilds with 100+ players dedicated only to raiding, we might as well be at around 1k on the European-server, who actually clean raids weekly