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EoD expansion should have new RAID

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  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    • And if 250k people that are signed to the Facebook...i mean Gw2efficiency >its a sample of the the community

    Well it's a very good sample, at least when it comes to activity. gw2efficiency accounts on average have 2100 hours of playtime. While the global average (official) is about 95 hours, or at least it was in August 2018, but I doubt much changed since then. The difference is overwhelming. So, although gw2efficiency accounts are "only" 314688 accounts, which is a small number of accounts compared to the total, they do contain about 50% of this game's global actual playtime.
    Meaning where that "sample" spends their time, is where the game does.

    Ok .... and how many did wing 5/6/7 ?
    PvE 60% ? Raid 4% ?

    Well let's have a look at the Raid completion rates, although using only Wing 5/6/7 when the release cadence was already so abysmal isn't a very good idea. So looking at the earlier Raids, when the cadence was more stable is better:

    I will use the same system as the living world episodes, first boss and last boss, to compete with first instance and last instance.
    Heart of Thorns: 91% / 65%
    Spirit Vale: 30% / 21%
    Salvation Pass: 20% / 18%
    Stronghold of the Faithful: 26% / 15%
    Considering only 65% finished HOT, those Raid kill numbers aren't half bad, especially for the first boss.

    The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49%
    Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%
    Compared to the episode it was released with, Bastion numbers are quite good, half of those that started the episode, killed the first boss.

    Daybreak: 61% / 52%
    Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%
    This was indeed a tough one.

    A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44%
    Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%
    I think we can see here that the living world lost more players than Raids did, at this point.

    War Eternal: 49% / 46%
    The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%
    Oddly enough War Eternal didn't experience the same losses over time, but neither did Wing 7, with very similar results, maybe the playerbase finally stabilized at that point. At least until the Icebrood Saga started

    Well there you have it. HOT Raids had a vastly superior popularity compared to POF Raids. HOT raid bosses were between 1/3rd and 1/4th of those that finished the respective episodes. POF Raids were closer to 1/5th - 1/6th.

    The training guilds piggiback the participation iin HoT till at this moment .
    The lack of them ,shows what trully happen in LFG in PoF :p

    11% people tries once the first of wing 5/6/7 ? that's Neat . That Achentant Ring really boosted the numbers :P
    War Eternal 46% , The Key of Ahdashim 7% (end boss wing 7) (-easiest than the 5/6) ,is the juicy part .

    Then the company why they release the Wing 7 at June 2019 , and made a statement at Jan-February of 2020 , that they want to release more Raids , but few play them ? Maybe it was a mistake ? Maybe they have different data ?

    (circular conversations . Lets try to create a new Raidv2 ,otherwise lets move with sclaable DRM and "mote" dificulty that you must do 26k dps or 31k with 2 healers .
    The 2015 plan didn;t work . People wanted to escape from WoW . They keep reminding them , the thing they avoided)

    (Edit: How 315k accounts have the 50% gametime of the game ?
    What about the 3,5 million accounts fro the Core Launch or my account tat is no linked ?
    If more people had linked their account , there wouldnt be a need for KP + linking their gear on chat , because you could inspect some1 else accounts on your moibile ,before inviting him (Same as Library in WoW -guess why i dont link my account:P))

    1) at the "Shout your favorite Team" section show a 8 sec lighthearted speedrun Sion killing kill Dragon>lvl up>Dab>Tower>Base>Win 2)Also tips when the enemy Hit the Tower,Inhibitor-Dragon -simple 9 yearwords (what is Soul?)3) Show a card "C9 aim is CC in mass battle""vs "TL kill the sqissy"

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    11% people tries once the first of wing 5/6/7 ? that's Neat . That Achentant Ring really boosted the numbers :P
    War Eternal 46% , The Key of Ahdashim 7% (end boss wing 7) (-easiest than the 5/6) ,is the juicy part .

    7% is 15% of 46%, is 15% a "small audience"? I don't really think so. Also, 30%/20%/26%, the rates of the first boss of each of the initial Wings were 46%/31%/40% of those that finished Heart of Thorns. This does tell us that a stable release cadence can have a positive effect on participation. And a healthy reward. Both things that POF Raids were missing.

    Then the company why they release the Wing 7 at June 2019 , and made a statement at Jan-February of 2020 , that they want to release more Raids , but few play them ? Maybe it was a mistake ? Maybe they have different data ?

    Oh yes, that post about "the audience they attract". In my above calculation I compared Raid participation (a few hours) to story completion (a couple of minutes). Let's make a more valid comparison shall we?

    The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49% / 16%
    Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%

    Daybreak: 61% / 52% / 12%
    Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%

    A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44% / 9%
    Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%

    War Eternal: 49% / 46% / 5%
    The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%

    In bold the meta achievement (mastery) completion rates of all the relevant episodes. Look at that War Eternal completion. Talking about the audience something attracts.

    _(Edit: How 315k accounts have the 50% gametime of the game ?

    Arenanet released an infographic in August 2018.

    In the infographic they tell us that the game reached 11000000 accounts and 119431.07 years in total playtime. Those years translate into 1,046,216,173.2 hours. Simple division gives us that the average Guild Wars 2 player has 95 hours of playtime. Yep, it's THAT low. So anyone using the "average" for any kind of comparison needs to take into account that the "average" barely started playing.

    Now I searched and found this bad boy:

    It's gw2efficiency data from November 2019. Now that's a bit over a year after Arenanet's post, but it's the earliest I could find.

    We see a total of 548,129,625 hours (51% of what Arenanet told us is the total) out of 244,074 accounts, which gives us 2,245.7 hours per account. Compare that with the game's average of 95 and you can see the difference in activity between the average GW2 player and the average gw2efficiency user. We are talking about players who barely touch the game compared to players who live inside it. Now who is the most important to create content for?

    Edit. and it gets better. The 95 hour average includes gw2efficiency accounts. So let's remove those 244k accounts and their 548 million playtime. The result (the non-gw2efficiency accounts) are 10756000 with 498,086,548 hours of playtime, or in total, the non-gw2efficiency accounts have an average of 46 hours! Much WOW

    Edit 2: tl;dr
    1 Raid participation, even at its lowest, was still 15% of those that finished the relevant episode.
    2 Comparing "those that Raid" vs "those that do not Raid" is unfair because it assumes those that do not Raid do everything else, which is obviously false, comparing Raid participation with something else, like the above mastery completions gives us better comparisons
    3 The average GW2 player has a playtime (total) of 95 hours. The average gw2efficiency player has a playtime of 2246 hours. The average non-gw2efficiency player has a playtime of 46 hours. Draw your own conclusions based on that

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    • And if 250k people that are signed to the Facebook...i mean Gw2efficiency >its a sample of the the community

    Well it's a very good sample, at least when it comes to activity. gw2efficiency accounts on average have 2100 hours of playtime. While the global average (official) is about 95 hours, or at least it was in August 2018, but I doubt much changed since then. The difference is overwhelming. So, although gw2efficiency accounts are "only" 314688 accounts, which is a small number of accounts compared to the total, they do contain about 50% of this game's global actual playtime.
    Meaning where that "sample" spends their time, is where the game does.

    Ok .... and how many did wing 5/6/7 ?
    PvE 60% ? Raid 4% ?

    Well let's have a look at the Raid completion rates, although using only Wing 5/6/7 when the release cadence was already so abysmal isn't a very good idea. So looking at the earlier Raids, when the cadence was more stable is better:

    I will use the same system as the living world episodes, first boss and last boss, to compete with first instance and last instance.
    Heart of Thorns: 91% / 65%
    Spirit Vale: 30% / 21%
    Salvation Pass: 20% / 18%
    Stronghold of the Faithful: 26% / 15%
    Considering only 65% finished HOT, those Raid kill numbers aren't half bad, especially for the first boss.

    The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49%
    Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%
    Compared to the episode it was released with, Bastion numbers are quite good, half of those that started the episode, killed the first boss.

    Daybreak: 61% / 52%
    Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%
    This was indeed a tough one.

    A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44%
    Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%
    I think we can see here that the living world lost more players than Raids did, at this point.

    War Eternal: 49% / 46%
    The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%
    Oddly enough War Eternal didn't experience the same losses over time, but neither did Wing 7, with very similar results, maybe the playerbase finally stabilized at that point. At least until the Icebrood Saga started

    Well there you have it. HOT Raids had a vastly superior popularity compared to POF Raids. HOT raid bosses were between 1/3rd and 1/4th of those that finished the respective episodes. POF Raids were closer to 1/5th - 1/6th.

    I assume you took these stats from Guild Wars 2 efficiency. My guess is raiders are more likely to list there than more casual players. A lot of people I've talked to don't even know about the site. Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

    The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    • And if 250k people that are signed to the Facebook...i mean Gw2efficiency >its a sample of the the community

    Well it's a very good sample, at least when it comes to activity. gw2efficiency accounts on average have 2100 hours of playtime. While the global average (official) is about 95 hours, or at least it was in August 2018, but I doubt much changed since then. The difference is overwhelming. So, although gw2efficiency accounts are "only" 314688 accounts, which is a small number of accounts compared to the total, they do contain about 50% of this game's global actual playtime.
    Meaning where that "sample" spends their time, is where the game does.

    Ok .... and how many did wing 5/6/7 ?
    PvE 60% ? Raid 4% ?

    Well let's have a look at the Raid completion rates, although using only Wing 5/6/7 when the release cadence was already so abysmal isn't a very good idea. So looking at the earlier Raids, when the cadence was more stable is better:

    I will use the same system as the living world episodes, first boss and last boss, to compete with first instance and last instance.
    Heart of Thorns: 91% / 65%
    Spirit Vale: 30% / 21%
    Salvation Pass: 20% / 18%
    Stronghold of the Faithful: 26% / 15%
    Considering only 65% finished HOT, those Raid kill numbers aren't half bad, especially for the first boss.

    The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49%
    Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%
    Compared to the episode it was released with, Bastion numbers are quite good, half of those that started the episode, killed the first boss.

    Daybreak: 61% / 52%
    Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%
    This was indeed a tough one.

    A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44%
    Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%
    I think we can see here that the living world lost more players than Raids did, at this point.

    War Eternal: 49% / 46%
    The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%
    Oddly enough War Eternal didn't experience the same losses over time, but neither did Wing 7, with very similar results, maybe the playerbase finally stabilized at that point. At least until the Icebrood Saga started

    Well there you have it. HOT Raids had a vastly superior popularity compared to POF Raids. HOT raid bosses were between 1/3rd and 1/4th of those that finished the respective episodes. POF Raids were closer to 1/5th - 1/6th.

    I assume you took these stats from Guild Wars 2 efficiency. My guess is raiders are more likely to list there than more casual players. A lot of people I've talked to don't even know about the site. Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

    The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.

    Quite the opposite, the site is mostly aimed for veteran casuals who has a need to calculate account worth, mats value/hour analysis(for open map farming), TP flipping, botting assistant, and upcoming progress for crafting a full set of ascended equipment's for their characters. The lower raid statistic proves the discrepancy in real world scenarios.

    Since hardcore contents usually reward raw gold and free ascended gears of choice, most players who frequent hardcore contents don't usually find these calculations necessary, and is more interested in performance statistics from other sources.

  • yukarishura.4790yukarishura.4790 Member ✭✭✭

    If only some communication would be there about the state of raids, if we ever get them in the future or if they are dead for good, to clear things up. Since they never said they wont release them anymore, and also said there is possibility of new raids in the future (more similar to w1-3 difficulty). Same happened to fractals till we got Sunqua. A Cantha themed raid would be cool as well with the new expansion like others have proposed here

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

    Of course I'm talking about dedicated players, those are the one that make this game work and feel populated, not those that log once a week for 5 minutes then log off. To quote myself, the math is on the post above yours

    The average gw2efficiency player has a playtime of 2246 hours. The average non-gw2efficiency player has a playtime of 46 hours.

    Which leads to the next point:

    The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.

    No that's not any kind of relevant question. You are once again being unfair here, comparing "Those who Raid" vs "those who don't". The good question is how many players completed Raids vs those that completed XYZ. For example, in my earlier post I compared the Raid completions with story completions and living world meta achievement completions, those matter. And watching the War Eternal mastery completion being lower than Wing 7 final boss completion is very telling.

    Those "casuals" you asked and didn't even know what gw2efficiency is, do they run Fractals often? Do they complete episode meta achievements? Do they run jumping puzzles? Do they finish weapon/armor collections? Do they craft Legendary Weapons? Those are the actual valid questions when comparing to those who are raiding, not how many Raid vs how many don't Raid. And I'm quite confident that the average casual player of this game doesn't do any of the above, otherwise 70% of this game's accounts wouldn't have under 600 AP. Yet that they don't run Raids is somehow a problem

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    But the 7% that did complete the Wing 7 , ONCE in their lifetime , is a lit smaller than the 46%

    Yes that's how math works, but what story completions show, is how many players were still connected to the game when that Raid wing launched. Because it does take only a few minutes to complete the story. Which is why the percentage of completions is what is important and not the actual numbers, meaning, as I said 15%.

    But i really wonder , how many casuals are repeating the maps for the rewards (till they over farmed it and get reduced) and still Replay Fractals, and how many times per week people actual play the Raids .

    Not many for sure. Given how 70% of accounts in this game have less than 600 AP, it's mathematically impossible for the majority of the playerbase (these casuals) to have ever played any of that, even once in their life.

    And if that 244,074 accounts hold the half time of the player base , and only 7% completed the Wing 7 end boss ,then it means that 17.000 did that Raid.

    Yes, and only 17000 finished the War Eternal meta achievement as well. Yet for some reason the "problem" discussed is how many did or didn't do Raids, as if those that don't Raid, do everything else. Which is factually false.

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    But the 7% that did complete the Wing 7 , ONCE in their lifetime , is a lit smaller than the 46%

    Yes that's how math works, but what story completions show, is how many players were still connected to the game when that Raid wing launched. Because it does take only a few minutes to complete the story. Which is why the percentage of completions is what is important and not the actual numbers, meaning, as I said 15%.

    But i really wonder , how many casuals are repeating the maps for the rewards (till they over farmed it and get reduced) and still Replay Fractals, and how many times per week people actual play the Raids .

    Not many for sure. Given how 70% of accounts in this game have less than 600 AP, it's mathematically impossible for the majority of the playerbase (these casuals) to have ever played any of that, even once in their life.

    And if that 244,074 accounts hold the half time of the player base , and only 7% completed the Wing 7 end boss ,then it means that 17.000 did that Raid.

    Yes, and only 17000 finished the War Eternal meta achievement as well. Yet for some reason the "problem" discussed is how many did or didn't do Raids, as if those that don't Raid, do everything else. Which is factually false.

    When the Wing 7 Raid was launched , it was Kryz or Asum , that where saying that it failed and had 2,8% participation (Wing 5 had 5-6% at that time ) , because it was easy for the Pros and Hard for the casuals ?

    Again the company has its data . You cannot tell me that they pulled back 5 employees and stop the Raid production , just to troll the community .
    If there wasnt something wrong in that 6 month particiapation , than they would offer Wing 8 with even less Dificulty :P

    Again that math/stats Guy ,either he didnt have his glasses on , or had toomany drinks , or he doesnt have Asian DNA :P

    1) at the "Shout your favorite Team" section show a 8 sec lighthearted speedrun Sion killing kill Dragon>lvl up>Dab>Tower>Base>Win 2)Also tips when the enemy Hit the Tower,Inhibitor-Dragon -simple 9 yearwords (what is Soul?)3) Show a card "C9 aim is CC in mass battle""vs "TL kill the sqissy"

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    When the Wing 7 Raid was launched , it was Kryz or Asum , that where saying that it failed and had 2,8% participation (Wing 5 had 5-6% at that time ) , because it was easy for the Pros and Hard for the casuals ?

    Again the company has its data . You cannot tell me that they pulled back 5 employees and stop the Raid production , just to troll the community .
    If there wasnt something wrong in that 6 month particiapation , than they would offer Wing 8 with even less Dificulty :P

    Again that math/stats Guy ,either he didnt have his glasses on , or had toomany drinks , or he doesnt have Asian DNA :P

    I only argued that W7 CMs were too easy (which they are).

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    Again the company has its data .

    Yes and they told us that their data shows that the most common reason for players to not run Raids is because there is no content to bridge Raids with the rest of the game. Really excluding Fractals CM for example, because anyone running Fractal CMs shouldn't have any problem whatsoever in Raids. And even simply running Fractal T4s is more than enough for a lot of the Raid bosses. Let me just challenge that idea that there is no "bridge" for Raids. Siege the Stronghold (Escort), Cairn and Vale Guardian are adequate "bridges", maybe they should advertise them as such, instead of adding new content.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    Again the company has its data .

    Yes and they told us that their data shows that the most common reason for players to not run Raids is because there is no content to bridge Raids with the rest of the game. Really excluding Fractals CM for example, because anyone running Fractal CMs shouldn't have any problem whatsoever in Raids. And even simply running Fractal T4s is more than enough for a lot of the Raid bosses. Let me just challenge that idea that there is no "bridge" for Raids. Siege the Stronghold (Escort), Cairn and Vale Guardian are adequate "bridges", maybe they should advertise them as such, instead of adding new content.

    The problem with fractals as a bridge for me is that they are a good bridge fir everyone already invested, if you dont dk fractals they are kind intimidating with the climb and building ar.

    I think honestly strikes and drms are great stepping stones into fractals and raids because they introduce the idea of instanced group content right after the story to ppl that normally play lw without any major gates or requirements, other than owning lw and expacs that is.

    The gw2 playerbase before they learn mechanics need to be introduced into the idea of group content and remaking story into group content is a seemingly cheap way to do just that.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    • And if 250k people that are signed to the Facebook...i mean Gw2efficiency >its a sample of the the community

    Well it's a very good sample, at least when it comes to activity. gw2efficiency accounts on average have 2100 hours of playtime. While the global average (official) is about 95 hours, or at least it was in August 2018, but I doubt much changed since then. The difference is overwhelming. So, although gw2efficiency accounts are "only" 314688 accounts, which is a small number of accounts compared to the total, they do contain about 50% of this game's global actual playtime.
    Meaning where that "sample" spends their time, is where the game does.

    Ok .... and how many did wing 5/6/7 ?
    PvE 60% ? Raid 4% ?

    Well let's have a look at the Raid completion rates, although using only Wing 5/6/7 when the release cadence was already so abysmal isn't a very good idea. So looking at the earlier Raids, when the cadence was more stable is better:

    I will use the same system as the living world episodes, first boss and last boss, to compete with first instance and last instance.
    Heart of Thorns: 91% / 65%
    Spirit Vale: 30% / 21%
    Salvation Pass: 20% / 18%
    Stronghold of the Faithful: 26% / 15%
    Considering only 65% finished HOT, those Raid kill numbers aren't half bad, especially for the first boss.

    The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49%
    Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%
    Compared to the episode it was released with, Bastion numbers are quite good, half of those that started the episode, killed the first boss.

    Daybreak: 61% / 52%
    Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%
    This was indeed a tough one.

    A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44%
    Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%
    I think we can see here that the living world lost more players than Raids did, at this point.

    War Eternal: 49% / 46%
    The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%
    Oddly enough War Eternal didn't experience the same losses over time, but neither did Wing 7, with very similar results, maybe the playerbase finally stabilized at that point. At least until the Icebrood Saga started

    Well there you have it. HOT Raids had a vastly superior popularity compared to POF Raids. HOT raid bosses were between 1/3rd and 1/4th of those that finished the respective episodes. POF Raids were closer to 1/5th - 1/6th.

    I assume you took these stats from Guild Wars 2 efficiency. My guess is raiders are more likely to list there than more casual players. A lot of people I've talked to don't even know about the site. Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

    The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.

    Quite the opposite, the site is mostly aimed for veteran casuals who has a need to calculate account worth, mats value/hour analysis(for open map farming), TP flipping, botting assistant, and upcoming progress for crafting a full set of ascended equipment's for their characters. The lower raid statistic proves the discrepancy in real world scenarios.

    Since hardcore contents usually reward raw gold and free ascended gears of choice, most players who frequent hardcore contents don't usually find these calculations necessary, and is more interested in performance statistics from other sources.

    Hardocore flippers are on there. People who make legendaries are on there. Because it's helpful. In fact, most casuals don't come to forums, or reddit or scour the internet for sites, they just sort of log in and play. There are absolutely going to be harder core people on GW 2 efficiency because they spend more time in communities and would have heard of it.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

    Of course I'm talking about dedicated players, those are the one that make this game work and feel populated, not those that log once a week for 5 minutes then log off. To quote myself, the math is on the post above yours

    The average gw2efficiency player has a playtime of 2246 hours. The average non-gw2efficiency player has a playtime of 46 hours.

    Which leads to the next point:

    The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.

    No that's not any kind of relevant question. You are once again being unfair here, comparing "Those who Raid" vs "those who don't". The good question is how many players completed Raids vs those that completed XYZ. For example, in my earlier post I compared the Raid completions with story completions and living world meta achievement completions, those matter. And watching the War Eternal mastery completion being lower than Wing 7 final boss completion is very telling.

    Those "casuals" you asked and didn't even know what gw2efficiency is, do they run Fractals often? Do they complete episode meta achievements? Do they run jumping puzzles? Do they finish weapon/armor collections? Do they craft Legendary Weapons? Those are the actual valid questions when comparing to those who are raiding, not how many Raid vs how many don't Raid. And I'm quite confident that the average casual player of this game doesn't do any of the above, otherwise 70% of this game's accounts wouldn't have under 600 AP. Yet that they don't run Raids is somehow a problem

    A c;asual player can play a lot. I have people ion my guild who play every day who don't have efficiency accounts, or probably even know what it is. Only the hardest ore people in my guild have attempted raiding and it's a tiny percentage even then.

    But to so blithely dismiss those other guys who are at all the meta and world events, who do stuff like the octovine or drizzlewood or the pinata or the anomaly, even if they don't log in every single day, they're also out there making the game feel alive. They don't do it all at the same time of course, nor do they have to.

    The hard core population who are sitting in fractals and raids, they necessarily come into the open world as much and don't necessarily make the open world feel more alive, but my guess is most people are in the open world.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    And if that 244,074 accounts hold the half time of the player base , and only 7% completed the Wing 7 end boss ,then it means that 17.000 did that Raid.

    Yes, and only 17000 finished the War Eternal meta achievement as well.

    The difference is that you compare single kill of a raid boss with achievement that requires many, many hours of completing multiple other achievements, and doing map metas over and over again. To make the comparison fair, you would have to compare it with Passport to Ahdashim, which has a completion of 7,299 of 295,027 (2.474%) [Notice: for some reason it shows to me higher number of total gw2eff accounts than it shows to you, which might make my result percentage a little lower].

    Which, frankly, doesn't change the fact that both those groups of players are relatively small (it just puts those numbers in proper context). Which is hardly surprising - achievement completionists are in a way as niche as raiders.

    Unfortunately the achievements are a bad way of tracking continued activities. You know who finished story or specific achievements, but you have no idea how many players spend how many time on that map. You know how many players killed a boss once, but you have no idea how many of them continued to do that after that initial kill (and for how long, or how often). And those numbers in both cases are very important. For Anet, players that do the content once and never repeat it are way less important than those that will continue playing in it.

    Edit: come to think, while it's not possible to track activity within a specific wing, we can sort of track activity of efficiency players within last 3 wings by looking at LDs.
    18% of players within 2000-4000 hours range have at least one LD. 10.5% has at least ten (there are 10 bosses in wings 5, 6 and 7). Around 6% has over 50. Below 4% has over 150.
    For 4000+ range it increases to 31%, 24.5%, 19% and 15%. (with 4% of those players having over 500 LDs)
    For all efficiency accounts it goes to 12.5%, 7.5%, 5% and 3.5% (with less than 1% having over 500)

    To put it in perspective, the top number for LDs on gw2eff is 1324.
    So, in reality, even among the most engaged part of players registered at efficiency (that is already shifted towards players with most engagement, plkaytime, and hardcore approach to gaming), 70% never even tried any of the post-PoF wings, with the next 15% going for either single kill or ring, and stopping there. Only 15% of those accounts (and only 3.5% of all gw2eff ones) raided a bit more, with only 4% of them (less than 1% of all) being truly dedicated to the content.

    We of course can't know how those numbers look across the 3 wings, but i think we can safely assume (even considering the time factor alone) they were not uniformly obtained, with earlier raids being a bigger source, and thus the actual relative activity levels in wing 7 were significantly smaller than that.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    • And if 250k people that are signed to the Facebook...i mean Gw2efficiency >its a sample of the the community

    Well it's a very good sample, at least when it comes to activity. gw2efficiency accounts on average have 2100 hours of playtime. While the global average (official) is about 95 hours, or at least it was in August 2018, but I doubt much changed since then. The difference is overwhelming. So, although gw2efficiency accounts are "only" 314688 accounts, which is a small number of accounts compared to the total, they do contain about 50% of this game's global actual playtime.
    Meaning where that "sample" spends their time, is where the game does.

    Ok .... and how many did wing 5/6/7 ?
    PvE 60% ? Raid 4% ?

    Well let's have a look at the Raid completion rates, although using only Wing 5/6/7 when the release cadence was already so abysmal isn't a very good idea. So looking at the earlier Raids, when the cadence was more stable is better:

    I will use the same system as the living world episodes, first boss and last boss, to compete with first instance and last instance.
    Heart of Thorns: 91% / 65%
    Spirit Vale: 30% / 21%
    Salvation Pass: 20% / 18%
    Stronghold of the Faithful: 26% / 15%
    Considering only 65% finished HOT, those Raid kill numbers aren't half bad, especially for the first boss.

    The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49%
    Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%
    Compared to the episode it was released with, Bastion numbers are quite good, half of those that started the episode, killed the first boss.

    Daybreak: 61% / 52%
    Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%
    This was indeed a tough one.

    A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44%
    Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%
    I think we can see here that the living world lost more players than Raids did, at this point.

    War Eternal: 49% / 46%
    The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%
    Oddly enough War Eternal didn't experience the same losses over time, but neither did Wing 7, with very similar results, maybe the playerbase finally stabilized at that point. At least until the Icebrood Saga started

    Well there you have it. HOT Raids had a vastly superior popularity compared to POF Raids. HOT raid bosses were between 1/3rd and 1/4th of those that finished the respective episodes. POF Raids were closer to 1/5th - 1/6th.

    I assume you took these stats from Guild Wars 2 efficiency. My guess is raiders are more likely to list there than more casual players. A lot of people I've talked to don't even know about the site. Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

    The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.

    Quite the opposite, the site is mostly aimed for veteran casuals who has a need to calculate account worth, mats value/hour analysis(for open map farming), TP flipping, botting assistant, and upcoming progress for crafting a full set of ascended equipment's for their characters. The lower raid statistic proves the discrepancy in real world scenarios.

    Since hardcore contents usually reward raw gold and free ascended gears of choice, most players who frequent hardcore contents don't usually find these calculations necessary, and is more interested in performance statistics from other sources.

    Hardocore flippers are on there. People who make legendaries are on there. Because it's helpful. In fact, most casuals don't come to forums, or reddit or scour the internet for sites, they just sort of log in and play. There are absolutely going to be harder core people on GW 2 efficiency because they spend more time in communities and would have heard of it.

    Yet TP flipping is a casual activity, it does not involve the playing skill level of a player.
    Neither does analyzing craft cost of a legendary weapon require registering an account as it is an one time affair.

    This site is mostly useful for players who generate income from materials, therefore find the calculation helpful, instead of raw gold from hardcore contents.

    A c;asual player can play a lot. I have people ion my guild who play every day who don't have efficiency accounts, or probably even know what it is. Only the hardest ore people in my guild have attempted raiding and it's a tiny percentage even then.

    But to so blithely dismiss those other guys who are at all the meta and world events, who do stuff like the octovine or drizzlewood or the pinata or the anomaly, even if they don't log in every single day, they're also out there making the game feel alive. They don't do it all at the same time of course, nor do they have to.

    The hard core population who are sitting in fractals and raids, they necessarily come into the open world as much and don't necessarily make the open world feel more alive, but my guess is most people are in the open world.

    And how is that you consider TP flippers to be hardcore players while at the same time calling open world farmers who played as frequent to be casual? And how is that hardcore players do not make the game feel alive while casuals do?
    There is so much discrimination in these statements.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    • And if 250k people that are signed to the Facebook...i mean Gw2efficiency >its a sample of the the community

    Well it's a very good sample, at least when it comes to activity. gw2efficiency accounts on average have 2100 hours of playtime. While the global average (official) is about 95 hours, or at least it was in August 2018, but I doubt much changed since then. The difference is overwhelming. So, although gw2efficiency accounts are "only" 314688 accounts, which is a small number of accounts compared to the total, they do contain about 50% of this game's global actual playtime.
    Meaning where that "sample" spends their time, is where the game does.

    Ok .... and how many did wing 5/6/7 ?
    PvE 60% ? Raid 4% ?

    Well let's have a look at the Raid completion rates, although using only Wing 5/6/7 when the release cadence was already so abysmal isn't a very good idea. So looking at the earlier Raids, when the cadence was more stable is better:

    I will use the same system as the living world episodes, first boss and last boss, to compete with first instance and last instance.
    Heart of Thorns: 91% / 65%
    Spirit Vale: 30% / 21%
    Salvation Pass: 20% / 18%
    Stronghold of the Faithful: 26% / 15%
    Considering only 65% finished HOT, those Raid kill numbers aren't half bad, especially for the first boss.

    The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49%
    Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%
    Compared to the episode it was released with, Bastion numbers are quite good, half of those that started the episode, killed the first boss.

    Daybreak: 61% / 52%
    Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%
    This was indeed a tough one.

    A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44%
    Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%
    I think we can see here that the living world lost more players than Raids did, at this point.

    War Eternal: 49% / 46%
    The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%
    Oddly enough War Eternal didn't experience the same losses over time, but neither did Wing 7, with very similar results, maybe the playerbase finally stabilized at that point. At least until the Icebrood Saga started

    Well there you have it. HOT Raids had a vastly superior popularity compared to POF Raids. HOT raid bosses were between 1/3rd and 1/4th of those that finished the respective episodes. POF Raids were closer to 1/5th - 1/6th.

    I assume you took these stats from Guild Wars 2 efficiency. My guess is raiders are more likely to list there than more casual players. A lot of people I've talked to don't even know about the site. Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

    The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.

    Quite the opposite, the site is mostly aimed for veteran casuals who has a need to calculate account worth, mats value/hour analysis(for open map farming), TP flipping, botting assistant, and upcoming progress for crafting a full set of ascended equipment's for their characters. The lower raid statistic proves the discrepancy in real world scenarios.

    Since hardcore contents usually reward raw gold and free ascended gears of choice, most players who frequent hardcore contents don't usually find these calculations necessary, and is more interested in performance statistics from other sources.

    Hardocore flippers are on there. People who make legendaries are on there. Because it's helpful. In fact, most casuals don't come to forums, or reddit or scour the internet for sites, they just sort of log in and play. There are absolutely going to be harder core people on GW 2 efficiency because they spend more time in communities and would have heard of it.

    Yet TP flipping is a casual activity, it does not involve the playing skill level of a player.
    Neither does analyzing craft cost of a legendary weapon require registering an account as it is an one time affair.

    This site is mostly useful for players who generate income from materials, therefore find the calculation helpful, instead of raw gold from hardcore contents.

    A c;asual player can play a lot. I have people ion my guild who play every day who don't have efficiency accounts, or probably even know what it is. Only the hardest ore people in my guild have attempted raiding and it's a tiny percentage even then.

    But to so blithely dismiss those other guys who are at all the meta and world events, who do stuff like the octovine or drizzlewood or the pinata or the anomaly, even if they don't log in every single day, they're also out there making the game feel alive. They don't do it all at the same time of course, nor do they have to.

    The hard core population who are sitting in fractals and raids, they necessarily come into the open world as much and don't necessarily make the open world feel more alive, but my guess is most people are in the open world.

    And how is that you consider TP flippers to be hardcore players while at the same time calling open world farmers who played as frequent to be casual? And how is that hardcore players do not make the game feel alive while casuals do?
    There is so much discrimination in these statements.

    TP flipping is absolutely not casual. It requires an investment in time and money that casual farming doesn't. Most casual players don't flip. Those who flip tend to be very very invested in that activity. They form entire guilds for it. HUGE difference between that and a casual farmer.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    • And if 250k people that are signed to the Facebook...i mean Gw2efficiency >its a sample of the the community

    Well it's a very good sample, at least when it comes to activity. gw2efficiency accounts on average have 2100 hours of playtime. While the global average (official) is about 95 hours, or at least it was in August 2018, but I doubt much changed since then. The difference is overwhelming. So, although gw2efficiency accounts are "only" 314688 accounts, which is a small number of accounts compared to the total, they do contain about 50% of this game's global actual playtime.
    Meaning where that "sample" spends their time, is where the game does.

    Ok .... and how many did wing 5/6/7 ?
    PvE 60% ? Raid 4% ?

    Well let's have a look at the Raid completion rates, although using only Wing 5/6/7 when the release cadence was already so abysmal isn't a very good idea. So looking at the earlier Raids, when the cadence was more stable is better:

    I will use the same system as the living world episodes, first boss and last boss, to compete with first instance and last instance.
    Heart of Thorns: 91% / 65%
    Spirit Vale: 30% / 21%
    Salvation Pass: 20% / 18%
    Stronghold of the Faithful: 26% / 15%
    Considering only 65% finished HOT, those Raid kill numbers aren't half bad, especially for the first boss.

    The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49%
    Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%
    Compared to the episode it was released with, Bastion numbers are quite good, half of those that started the episode, killed the first boss.

    Daybreak: 61% / 52%
    Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%
    This was indeed a tough one.

    A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44%
    Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%
    I think we can see here that the living world lost more players than Raids did, at this point.

    War Eternal: 49% / 46%
    The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%
    Oddly enough War Eternal didn't experience the same losses over time, but neither did Wing 7, with very similar results, maybe the playerbase finally stabilized at that point. At least until the Icebrood Saga started

    Well there you have it. HOT Raids had a vastly superior popularity compared to POF Raids. HOT raid bosses were between 1/3rd and 1/4th of those that finished the respective episodes. POF Raids were closer to 1/5th - 1/6th.

    I assume you took these stats from Guild Wars 2 efficiency. My guess is raiders are more likely to list there than more casual players. A lot of people I've talked to don't even know about the site. Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

    The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.

    Quite the opposite, the site is mostly aimed for veteran casuals who has a need to calculate account worth, mats value/hour analysis(for open map farming), TP flipping, botting assistant, and upcoming progress for crafting a full set of ascended equipment's for their characters. The lower raid statistic proves the discrepancy in real world scenarios.

    Since hardcore contents usually reward raw gold and free ascended gears of choice, most players who frequent hardcore contents don't usually find these calculations necessary, and is more interested in performance statistics from other sources.

    Hardocore flippers are on there. People who make legendaries are on there. Because it's helpful. In fact, most casuals don't come to forums, or reddit or scour the internet for sites, they just sort of log in and play. There are absolutely going to be harder core people on GW 2 efficiency because they spend more time in communities and would have heard of it.

    Yet TP flipping is a casual activity, it does not involve the playing skill level of a player.
    Neither does analyzing craft cost of a legendary weapon require registering an account as it is an one time affair.

    This site is mostly useful for players who generate income from materials, therefore find the calculation helpful, instead of raw gold from hardcore contents.

    A c;asual player can play a lot. I have people ion my guild who play every day who don't have efficiency accounts, or probably even know what it is. Only the hardest ore people in my guild have attempted raiding and it's a tiny percentage even then.

    But to so blithely dismiss those other guys who are at all the meta and world events, who do stuff like the octovine or drizzlewood or the pinata or the anomaly, even if they don't log in every single day, they're also out there making the game feel alive. They don't do it all at the same time of course, nor do they have to.

    The hard core population who are sitting in fractals and raids, they necessarily come into the open world as much and don't necessarily make the open world feel more alive, but my guess is most people are in the open world.

    And how is that you consider TP flippers to be hardcore players while at the same time calling open world farmers who played as frequent to be casual? And how is that hardcore players do not make the game feel alive while casuals do?
    There is so much discrimination in these statements.

    TP flipping is absolutely not casual. It requires an investment in time and money that casual farming doesn't. Most casual players don't flip. Those who flip tend to be very very invested in that activity. They form entire guilds for it. HUGE difference between that and a casual farmer.

    Wrong, most investment of time involved in TP flipping does not require player log-ins, and since TP flipping does not require a large amount of gold to begin with, any player who have a moderate amount of gold can immidiately be involved in the activity.
    And most importantly, it does not require player skill to warrant it as a hardcore activity.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    • And if 250k people that are signed to the Facebook...i mean Gw2efficiency >its a sample of the the community

    Well it's a very good sample, at least when it comes to activity. gw2efficiency accounts on average have 2100 hours of playtime. While the global average (official) is about 95 hours, or at least it was in August 2018, but I doubt much changed since then. The difference is overwhelming. So, although gw2efficiency accounts are "only" 314688 accounts, which is a small number of accounts compared to the total, they do contain about 50% of this game's global actual playtime.
    Meaning where that "sample" spends their time, is where the game does.

    Ok .... and how many did wing 5/6/7 ?
    PvE 60% ? Raid 4% ?

    Well let's have a look at the Raid completion rates, although using only Wing 5/6/7 when the release cadence was already so abysmal isn't a very good idea. So looking at the earlier Raids, when the cadence was more stable is better:

    I will use the same system as the living world episodes, first boss and last boss, to compete with first instance and last instance.
    Heart of Thorns: 91% / 65%
    Spirit Vale: 30% / 21%
    Salvation Pass: 20% / 18%
    Stronghold of the Faithful: 26% / 15%
    Considering only 65% finished HOT, those Raid kill numbers aren't half bad, especially for the first boss.

    The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49%
    Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%
    Compared to the episode it was released with, Bastion numbers are quite good, half of those that started the episode, killed the first boss.

    Daybreak: 61% / 52%
    Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%
    This was indeed a tough one.

    A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44%
    Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%
    I think we can see here that the living world lost more players than Raids did, at this point.

    War Eternal: 49% / 46%
    The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%
    Oddly enough War Eternal didn't experience the same losses over time, but neither did Wing 7, with very similar results, maybe the playerbase finally stabilized at that point. At least until the Icebrood Saga started

    Well there you have it. HOT Raids had a vastly superior popularity compared to POF Raids. HOT raid bosses were between 1/3rd and 1/4th of those that finished the respective episodes. POF Raids were closer to 1/5th - 1/6th.

    I assume you took these stats from Guild Wars 2 efficiency. My guess is raiders are more likely to list there than more casual players. A lot of people I've talked to don't even know about the site. Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

    The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.

    Quite the opposite, the site is mostly aimed for veteran casuals who has a need to calculate account worth, mats value/hour analysis(for open map farming), TP flipping, botting assistant, and upcoming progress for crafting a full set of ascended equipment's for their characters. The lower raid statistic proves the discrepancy in real world scenarios.

    Since hardcore contents usually reward raw gold and free ascended gears of choice, most players who frequent hardcore contents don't usually find these calculations necessary, and is more interested in performance statistics from other sources.

    Hardocore flippers are on there. People who make legendaries are on there. Because it's helpful. In fact, most casuals don't come to forums, or reddit or scour the internet for sites, they just sort of log in and play. There are absolutely going to be harder core people on GW 2 efficiency because they spend more time in communities and would have heard of it.

    Yet TP flipping is a casual activity, it does not involve the playing skill level of a player.
    Neither does analyzing craft cost of a legendary weapon require registering an account as it is an one time affair.

    This site is mostly useful for players who generate income from materials, therefore find the calculation helpful, instead of raw gold from hardcore contents.

    A c;asual player can play a lot. I have people ion my guild who play every day who don't have efficiency accounts, or probably even know what it is. Only the hardest ore people in my guild have attempted raiding and it's a tiny percentage even then.

    But to so blithely dismiss those other guys who are at all the meta and world events, who do stuff like the octovine or drizzlewood or the pinata or the anomaly, even if they don't log in every single day, they're also out there making the game feel alive. They don't do it all at the same time of course, nor do they have to.

    The hard core population who are sitting in fractals and raids, they necessarily come into the open world as much and don't necessarily make the open world feel more alive, but my guess is most people are in the open world.

    And how is that you consider TP flippers to be hardcore players while at the same time calling open world farmers who played as frequent to be casual? And how is that hardcore players do not make the game feel alive while casuals do?
    There is so much discrimination in these statements.

    TP flipping is absolutely not casual. It requires an investment in time and money that casual farming doesn't. Most casual players don't flip. Those who flip tend to be very very invested in that activity. They form entire guilds for it. HUGE difference between that and a casual farmer.

    Wrong, most investment of time involved in TP flipping does not require player log-ins, and since TP flipping does not require a large amount of gold to begin with, any player who have a moderate amount of gold can immidiately be involved in the activity.
    And most importantly, it does not require player skill to warrant it as a hardcore activity.

    You can believe anything you want. Everyone reading this can decide for themselves if they think more casual players are on GW 2 efficiency or more hard core players.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    • And if 250k people that are signed to the Facebook...i mean Gw2efficiency >its a sample of the the community

    Well it's a very good sample, at least when it comes to activity. gw2efficiency accounts on average have 2100 hours of playtime. While the global average (official) is about 95 hours, or at least it was in August 2018, but I doubt much changed since then. The difference is overwhelming. So, although gw2efficiency accounts are "only" 314688 accounts, which is a small number of accounts compared to the total, they do contain about 50% of this game's global actual playtime.
    Meaning where that "sample" spends their time, is where the game does.

    Ok .... and how many did wing 5/6/7 ?
    PvE 60% ? Raid 4% ?

    Well let's have a look at the Raid completion rates, although using only Wing 5/6/7 when the release cadence was already so abysmal isn't a very good idea. So looking at the earlier Raids, when the cadence was more stable is better:

    I will use the same system as the living world episodes, first boss and last boss, to compete with first instance and last instance.
    Heart of Thorns: 91% / 65%
    Spirit Vale: 30% / 21%
    Salvation Pass: 20% / 18%
    Stronghold of the Faithful: 26% / 15%
    Considering only 65% finished HOT, those Raid kill numbers aren't half bad, especially for the first boss.

    The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49%
    Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%
    Compared to the episode it was released with, Bastion numbers are quite good, half of those that started the episode, killed the first boss.

    Daybreak: 61% / 52%
    Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%
    This was indeed a tough one.

    A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44%
    Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%
    I think we can see here that the living world lost more players than Raids did, at this point.

    War Eternal: 49% / 46%
    The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%
    Oddly enough War Eternal didn't experience the same losses over time, but neither did Wing 7, with very similar results, maybe the playerbase finally stabilized at that point. At least until the Icebrood Saga started

    Well there you have it. HOT Raids had a vastly superior popularity compared to POF Raids. HOT raid bosses were between 1/3rd and 1/4th of those that finished the respective episodes. POF Raids were closer to 1/5th - 1/6th.

    I assume you took these stats from Guild Wars 2 efficiency. My guess is raiders are more likely to list there than more casual players. A lot of people I've talked to don't even know about the site. Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

    The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.

    Quite the opposite, the site is mostly aimed for veteran casuals who has a need to calculate account worth, mats value/hour analysis(for open map farming), TP flipping, botting assistant, and upcoming progress for crafting a full set of ascended equipment's for their characters. The lower raid statistic proves the discrepancy in real world scenarios.

    Since hardcore contents usually reward raw gold and free ascended gears of choice, most players who frequent hardcore contents don't usually find these calculations necessary, and is more interested in performance statistics from other sources.

    Hardocore flippers are on there. People who make legendaries are on there. Because it's helpful. In fact, most casuals don't come to forums, or reddit or scour the internet for sites, they just sort of log in and play. There are absolutely going to be harder core people on GW 2 efficiency because they spend more time in communities and would have heard of it.

    Yet TP flipping is a casual activity, it does not involve the playing skill level of a player.
    Neither does analyzing craft cost of a legendary weapon require registering an account as it is an one time affair.

    This site is mostly useful for players who generate income from materials, therefore find the calculation helpful, instead of raw gold from hardcore contents.

    A c;asual player can play a lot. I have people ion my guild who play every day who don't have efficiency accounts, or probably even know what it is. Only the hardest ore people in my guild have attempted raiding and it's a tiny percentage even then.

    But to so blithely dismiss those other guys who are at all the meta and world events, who do stuff like the octovine or drizzlewood or the pinata or the anomaly, even if they don't log in every single day, they're also out there making the game feel alive. They don't do it all at the same time of course, nor do they have to.

    The hard core population who are sitting in fractals and raids, they necessarily come into the open world as much and don't necessarily make the open world feel more alive, but my guess is most people are in the open world.

    And how is that you consider TP flippers to be hardcore players while at the same time calling open world farmers who played as frequent to be casual? And how is that hardcore players do not make the game feel alive while casuals do?
    There is so much discrimination in these statements.

    TP flipping is absolutely not casual. It requires an investment in time and money that casual farming doesn't. Most casual players don't flip. Those who flip tend to be very very invested in that activity. They form entire guilds for it. HUGE difference between that and a casual farmer.

    Wrong, most investment of time involved in TP flipping does not require player log-ins, and since TP flipping does not require a large amount of gold to begin with, any player who have a moderate amount of gold can immidiately be involved in the activity.
    And most importantly, it does not require player skill to warrant it as a hardcore activity.

    You can believe anything you want. Everyone reading this can decide for themselves if they think more casual players are on GW 2 efficiency or more hard core players.

    Here's a fact that does not require believing to be true: 70% of registered accounts in Gw2Efficiency are below 1k AP.

    You are free to believe these are also hardcore players, but clearly for everyone else this suggest otherwise.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    • And if 250k people that are signed to the Facebook...i mean Gw2efficiency >its a sample of the the community

    Well it's a very good sample, at least when it comes to activity. gw2efficiency accounts on average have 2100 hours of playtime. While the global average (official) is about 95 hours, or at least it was in August 2018, but I doubt much changed since then. The difference is overwhelming. So, although gw2efficiency accounts are "only" 314688 accounts, which is a small number of accounts compared to the total, they do contain about 50% of this game's global actual playtime.
    Meaning where that "sample" spends their time, is where the game does.

    Ok .... and how many did wing 5/6/7 ?
    PvE 60% ? Raid 4% ?

    Well let's have a look at the Raid completion rates, although using only Wing 5/6/7 when the release cadence was already so abysmal isn't a very good idea. So looking at the earlier Raids, when the cadence was more stable is better:

    I will use the same system as the living world episodes, first boss and last boss, to compete with first instance and last instance.
    Heart of Thorns: 91% / 65%
    Spirit Vale: 30% / 21%
    Salvation Pass: 20% / 18%
    Stronghold of the Faithful: 26% / 15%
    Considering only 65% finished HOT, those Raid kill numbers aren't half bad, especially for the first boss.

    The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49%
    Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%
    Compared to the episode it was released with, Bastion numbers are quite good, half of those that started the episode, killed the first boss.

    Daybreak: 61% / 52%
    Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%
    This was indeed a tough one.

    A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44%
    Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%
    I think we can see here that the living world lost more players than Raids did, at this point.

    War Eternal: 49% / 46%
    The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%
    Oddly enough War Eternal didn't experience the same losses over time, but neither did Wing 7, with very similar results, maybe the playerbase finally stabilized at that point. At least until the Icebrood Saga started

    Well there you have it. HOT Raids had a vastly superior popularity compared to POF Raids. HOT raid bosses were between 1/3rd and 1/4th of those that finished the respective episodes. POF Raids were closer to 1/5th - 1/6th.

    I assume you took these stats from Guild Wars 2 efficiency. My guess is raiders are more likely to list there than more casual players. A lot of people I've talked to don't even know about the site. Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

    The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.

    Quite the opposite, the site is mostly aimed for veteran casuals who has a need to calculate account worth, mats value/hour analysis(for open map farming), TP flipping, botting assistant, and upcoming progress for crafting a full set of ascended equipment's for their characters. The lower raid statistic proves the discrepancy in real world scenarios.

    Since hardcore contents usually reward raw gold and free ascended gears of choice, most players who frequent hardcore contents don't usually find these calculations necessary, and is more interested in performance statistics from other sources.

    Hardocore flippers are on there. People who make legendaries are on there. Because it's helpful. In fact, most casuals don't come to forums, or reddit or scour the internet for sites, they just sort of log in and play. There are absolutely going to be harder core people on GW 2 efficiency because they spend more time in communities and would have heard of it.

    Yet TP flipping is a casual activity, it does not involve the playing skill level of a player.
    Neither does analyzing craft cost of a legendary weapon require registering an account as it is an one time affair.

    This site is mostly useful for players who generate income from materials, therefore find the calculation helpful, instead of raw gold from hardcore contents.

    A c;asual player can play a lot. I have people ion my guild who play every day who don't have efficiency accounts, or probably even know what it is. Only the hardest ore people in my guild have attempted raiding and it's a tiny percentage even then.

    But to so blithely dismiss those other guys who are at all the meta and world events, who do stuff like the octovine or drizzlewood or the pinata or the anomaly, even if they don't log in every single day, they're also out there making the game feel alive. They don't do it all at the same time of course, nor do they have to.

    The hard core population who are sitting in fractals and raids, they necessarily come into the open world as much and don't necessarily make the open world feel more alive, but my guess is most people are in the open world.

    And how is that you consider TP flippers to be hardcore players while at the same time calling open world farmers who played as frequent to be casual? And how is that hardcore players do not make the game feel alive while casuals do?
    There is so much discrimination in these statements.

    TP flipping is absolutely not casual. It requires an investment in time and money that casual farming doesn't. Most casual players don't flip. Those who flip tend to be very very invested in that activity. They form entire guilds for it. HUGE difference between that and a casual farmer.

    Wrong, most investment of time involved in TP flipping does not require player log-ins, and since TP flipping does not require a large amount of gold to begin with, any player who have a moderate amount of gold can immidiately be involved in the activity.
    And most importantly, it does not require player skill to warrant it as a hardcore activity.

    You can believe anything you want. Everyone reading this can decide for themselves if they think more casual players are on GW 2 efficiency or more hard core players.

    Here's a fact that does not require believing to be true: 70% of registered accounts in Gw2Efficiency are below 1k AP.

    You are free to believe these are also hardcore players, but clearly for everyone else this suggest otherwise.

    Well, if you want to put it that way, then there are so few hard core players in this game that Anet shouldn't even bother catering to them at all. Seems to me, the most casual players don't research outside the game and none of those guys are on efficiency. Also sounds like a lot of alt accounts there to feed mystic coins to people to make legendries. I have ten accounts on efficiency but only one ofthem has a lot of achievement points. The rest of them are feeder accounts. So it would still be the hardest core people with multiple accounts.

    But you know, if 5% of the population is hard core, they shouldn't be demanding new hard core content.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    • And if 250k people that are signed to the Facebook...i mean Gw2efficiency >its a sample of the the community

    Well it's a very good sample, at least when it comes to activity. gw2efficiency accounts on average have 2100 hours of playtime. While the global average (official) is about 95 hours, or at least it was in August 2018, but I doubt much changed since then. The difference is overwhelming. So, although gw2efficiency accounts are "only" 314688 accounts, which is a small number of accounts compared to the total, they do contain about 50% of this game's global actual playtime.
    Meaning where that "sample" spends their time, is where the game does.

    Ok .... and how many did wing 5/6/7 ?
    PvE 60% ? Raid 4% ?

    Well let's have a look at the Raid completion rates, although using only Wing 5/6/7 when the release cadence was already so abysmal isn't a very good idea. So looking at the earlier Raids, when the cadence was more stable is better:

    I will use the same system as the living world episodes, first boss and last boss, to compete with first instance and last instance.
    Heart of Thorns: 91% / 65%
    Spirit Vale: 30% / 21%
    Salvation Pass: 20% / 18%
    Stronghold of the Faithful: 26% / 15%
    Considering only 65% finished HOT, those Raid kill numbers aren't half bad, especially for the first boss.

    The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49%
    Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%
    Compared to the episode it was released with, Bastion numbers are quite good, half of those that started the episode, killed the first boss.

    Daybreak: 61% / 52%
    Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%
    This was indeed a tough one.

    A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44%
    Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%
    I think we can see here that the living world lost more players than Raids did, at this point.

    War Eternal: 49% / 46%
    The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%
    Oddly enough War Eternal didn't experience the same losses over time, but neither did Wing 7, with very similar results, maybe the playerbase finally stabilized at that point. At least until the Icebrood Saga started

    Well there you have it. HOT Raids had a vastly superior popularity compared to POF Raids. HOT raid bosses were between 1/3rd and 1/4th of those that finished the respective episodes. POF Raids were closer to 1/5th - 1/6th.

    I assume you took these stats from Guild Wars 2 efficiency. My guess is raiders are more likely to list there than more casual players. A lot of people I've talked to don't even know about the site. Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

    The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.

    Quite the opposite, the site is mostly aimed for veteran casuals who has a need to calculate account worth, mats value/hour analysis(for open map farming), TP flipping, botting assistant, and upcoming progress for crafting a full set of ascended equipment's for their characters. The lower raid statistic proves the discrepancy in real world scenarios.

    Since hardcore contents usually reward raw gold and free ascended gears of choice, most players who frequent hardcore contents don't usually find these calculations necessary, and is more interested in performance statistics from other sources.

    Hardocore flippers are on there. People who make legendaries are on there. Because it's helpful. In fact, most casuals don't come to forums, or reddit or scour the internet for sites, they just sort of log in and play. There are absolutely going to be harder core people on GW 2 efficiency because they spend more time in communities and would have heard of it.

    Yet TP flipping is a casual activity, it does not involve the playing skill level of a player.
    Neither does analyzing craft cost of a legendary weapon require registering an account as it is an one time affair.

    This site is mostly useful for players who generate income from materials, therefore find the calculation helpful, instead of raw gold from hardcore contents.

    A c;asual player can play a lot. I have people ion my guild who play every day who don't have efficiency accounts, or probably even know what it is. Only the hardest ore people in my guild have attempted raiding and it's a tiny percentage even then.

    But to so blithely dismiss those other guys who are at all the meta and world events, who do stuff like the octovine or drizzlewood or the pinata or the anomaly, even if they don't log in every single day, they're also out there making the game feel alive. They don't do it all at the same time of course, nor do they have to.

    The hard core population who are sitting in fractals and raids, they necessarily come into the open world as much and don't necessarily make the open world feel more alive, but my guess is most people are in the open world.

    And how is that you consider TP flippers to be hardcore players while at the same time calling open world farmers who played as frequent to be casual? And how is that hardcore players do not make the game feel alive while casuals do?
    There is so much discrimination in these statements.

    TP flipping is absolutely not casual. It requires an investment in time and money that casual farming doesn't. Most casual players don't flip. Those who flip tend to be very very invested in that activity. They form entire guilds for it. HUGE difference between that and a casual farmer.

    Wrong, most investment of time involved in TP flipping does not require player log-ins, and since TP flipping does not require a large amount of gold to begin with, any player who have a moderate amount of gold can immidiately be involved in the activity.
    And most importantly, it does not require player skill to warrant it as a hardcore activity.

    You can believe anything you want. Everyone reading this can decide for themselves if they think more casual players are on GW 2 efficiency or more hard core players.

    Here's a fact that does not require believing to be true: 70% of registered accounts in Gw2Efficiency are below 1k AP.

    You are free to believe these are also hardcore players, but clearly for everyone else this suggest otherwise.

    Well, if you want to put it that way, then there are so few hard core players in this game that Anet shouldn't even bother catering to them at all. Seems to me, the most casual players don't research outside the game and none of those guys are on efficiency. Also sounds like a lot of alt accounts there to feed mystic coins to people to make legendries. I have ten accounts on efficiency but only one ofthem has a lot of achievement points. The rest of them are feeder accounts. So it would still be the hardest core people with multiple accounts.

    But you know, if 5% of the population is hard core, they shouldn't be demanding new hard core content.

    You're picking weapons from all over the place.

    Since when does a casual oriented MMO economic website represent the population of the hardcore community?

    In your logic, if 70% of the player base do not even play past 700 AP, Anet don't even need Living Story content at all as it only catering less than 1/3 of the population, and simply only need to stay core Tyria with trading post features to maintain the casual playerbase.

    Neither represent a valid statement.

  • yukarishura.4790yukarishura.4790 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    • And if 250k people that are signed to the Facebook...i mean Gw2efficiency >its a sample of the the community

    Well it's a very good sample, at least when it comes to activity. gw2efficiency accounts on average have 2100 hours of playtime. While the global average (official) is about 95 hours, or at least it was in August 2018, but I doubt much changed since then. The difference is overwhelming. So, although gw2efficiency accounts are "only" 314688 accounts, which is a small number of accounts compared to the total, they do contain about 50% of this game's global actual playtime.
    Meaning where that "sample" spends their time, is where the game does.

    Ok .... and how many did wing 5/6/7 ?
    PvE 60% ? Raid 4% ?

    Well let's have a look at the Raid completion rates, although using only Wing 5/6/7 when the release cadence was already so abysmal isn't a very good idea. So looking at the earlier Raids, when the cadence was more stable is better:

    I will use the same system as the living world episodes, first boss and last boss, to compete with first instance and last instance.
    Heart of Thorns: 91% / 65%
    Spirit Vale: 30% / 21%
    Salvation Pass: 20% / 18%
    Stronghold of the Faithful: 26% / 15%
    Considering only 65% finished HOT, those Raid kill numbers aren't half bad, especially for the first boss.

    The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49%
    Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%
    Compared to the episode it was released with, Bastion numbers are quite good, half of those that started the episode, killed the first boss.

    Daybreak: 61% / 52%
    Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%
    This was indeed a tough one.

    A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44%
    Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%
    I think we can see here that the living world lost more players than Raids did, at this point.

    War Eternal: 49% / 46%
    The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%
    Oddly enough War Eternal didn't experience the same losses over time, but neither did Wing 7, with very similar results, maybe the playerbase finally stabilized at that point. At least until the Icebrood Saga started

    Well there you have it. HOT Raids had a vastly superior popularity compared to POF Raids. HOT raid bosses were between 1/3rd and 1/4th of those that finished the respective episodes. POF Raids were closer to 1/5th - 1/6th.

    I assume you took these stats from Guild Wars 2 efficiency. My guess is raiders are more likely to list there than more casual players. A lot of people I've talked to don't even know about the site. Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

    The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.

    Quite the opposite, the site is mostly aimed for veteran casuals who has a need to calculate account worth, mats value/hour analysis(for open map farming), TP flipping, botting assistant, and upcoming progress for crafting a full set of ascended equipment's for their characters. The lower raid statistic proves the discrepancy in real world scenarios.

    Since hardcore contents usually reward raw gold and free ascended gears of choice, most players who frequent hardcore contents don't usually find these calculations necessary, and is more interested in performance statistics from other sources.

    Hardocore flippers are on there. People who make legendaries are on there. Because it's helpful. In fact, most casuals don't come to forums, or reddit or scour the internet for sites, they just sort of log in and play. There are absolutely going to be harder core people on GW 2 efficiency because they spend more time in communities and would have heard of it.

    Yet TP flipping is a casual activity, it does not involve the playing skill level of a player.
    Neither does analyzing craft cost of a legendary weapon require registering an account as it is an one time affair.

    This site is mostly useful for players who generate income from materials, therefore find the calculation helpful, instead of raw gold from hardcore contents.

    A c;asual player can play a lot. I have people ion my guild who play every day who don't have efficiency accounts, or probably even know what it is. Only the hardest ore people in my guild have attempted raiding and it's a tiny percentage even then.

    But to so blithely dismiss those other guys who are at all the meta and world events, who do stuff like the octovine or drizzlewood or the pinata or the anomaly, even if they don't log in every single day, they're also out there making the game feel alive. They don't do it all at the same time of course, nor do they have to.

    The hard core population who are sitting in fractals and raids, they necessarily come into the open world as much and don't necessarily make the open world feel more alive, but my guess is most people are in the open world.

    And how is that you consider TP flippers to be hardcore players while at the same time calling open world farmers who played as frequent to be casual? And how is that hardcore players do not make the game feel alive while casuals do?
    There is so much discrimination in these statements.

    TP flipping is absolutely not casual. It requires an investment in time and money that casual farming doesn't. Most casual players don't flip. Those who flip tend to be very very invested in that activity. They form entire guilds for it. HUGE difference between that and a casual farmer.

    Wrong, most investment of time involved in TP flipping does not require player log-ins, and since TP flipping does not require a large amount of gold to begin with, any player who have a moderate amount of gold can immidiately be involved in the activity.
    And most importantly, it does not require player skill to warrant it as a hardcore activity.

    You can believe anything you want. Everyone reading this can decide for themselves if they think more casual players are on GW 2 efficiency or more hard core players.

    Here's a fact that does not require believing to be true: 70% of registered accounts in Gw2Efficiency are below 1k AP.

    You are free to believe these are also hardcore players, but clearly for everyone else this suggest otherwise.

    Well, if you want to put it that way, then there are so few hard core players in this game that Anet shouldn't even bother catering to them at all. Seems to me, the most casual players don't research outside the game and none of those guys are on efficiency. Also sounds like a lot of alt accounts there to feed mystic coins to people to make legendries. I have ten accounts on efficiency but only one ofthem has a lot of achievement points. The rest of them are feeder accounts. So it would still be the hardest core people with multiple accounts.

    But you know, if 5% of the population is hard core, they shouldn't be demanding new hard core content.

    GW2efficiency is a bad example to look at, I am not even using it and like, who even uses it? People who are interested in legendaries and such..so nothing to do with hardcore raiders

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    Here's a fact that does not require believing to be true: 70% of registered accounts in Gw2Efficiency are below 1k AP.

    Um, excuse me but no. What did I just read.

    Take a look at this screenshot from the official leaderboards

    So 80% of this game's accounts (not gw2efficiency) have lower than about 1150 AP. Which is the mid point between those two, the exact number is not known with my limited friend/guild list but if more people check theirs we might find the correct answer. Still 80% of ACCOUNTS have under 1147 AP (which is the number a player at 70% has)

    As for gw2efficiency, you can see here:

    the majority of accounts (62%) have the Respected Achiever title, which is awarded at 5k AP. Unfortunately there is no way to tell how many gw2efficiency users are between 1150 and 5000, but I'd hazard a guess that the majority of gw2efficiency accounts is somewhere in that bracket and very few are under it.

    Edit: because I've used the "70% of accounts have under 600 AP" before, I was talking about the entire game, not gw2efficiency, if the most dedicated (note the word) players had under 1k AP then the game would be dead at this point.

    Edit2: as for the argument of which type of player has a gw2efficiency account, those that play as much of this game as possible. As a matter of fact, 566 gw2efficiency accounts have the Furious Achiever title which is awarded at 40k AP. There are 185 accounts in NA at 40k+ and 488 in EU, 673 total, or 84% of those above 40k AP have a gw2efficiency account.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Okay a lot has been said in this thread about raids being required for the long term health of this game. I don't agree with that statement and never will. What we'll never really know is how this game would have progressed if Anet had ramped up the difficulty of stuff more slowly and didn't just make the jump from Silverwastes to Verdant Brink and HoT. And it was a big jump in difficulty.

    Guys like me who did Fractals and dungeons weren't particularly phased by it. In fact, I loved the HoT open world enough that I was able to basically ignore raids. Unfortunately I was the exception in my guild.

    This game suffered from not having a decent ramp to harder content. The core world was laughably easy and even Season 1 wasn't really that hard. Stuff like dungeons and fractals weren't required, except for the last mission in the personal story which people complained about.

    Once those casuals saw they'd bought an expansion they really couldn't play they felt cheated and walked away. This was my game, this is no longer my game. It's probably best to blame the lack of a ramp than raids or anything else.

    After that drop, the game never really recovered, because it never really got that casual again and it couldn't. You can't undo certain things. I don't believe having a raid in the new expansion would actively hurt the expansion at this point. But I do think that it has the potential to if Anet doesn't have the capacity to produce casual and hard core content at the same time. I still think there are far more casuals here, even if the definition of what is a casual has changed somewhat. That is, today's casuals are more used to some slightly harder content, we have tables to break bars and elite specs and that sort of thing.

    But do i think the game needs a raids to suceed? Not even a little.

    have you even tried to get into raids and learn or do you just stop at "raids are hard, not gonna bother, bye"

    I can raid. That's not really the issue. I never even said raids were hard. I don't know why you think I can't raid. I don't enjoy raiding. Raiding is exactly the kind of content I'm not interested in. It has nothing to do with ability or skill. Yes, I have tried raiding. Yes, I didn't like raiding. Not sure where your assumption comes from.

    If you can raid then why are you here to complain about raids and address yourself as the casual who got cheated on? you never said you could raid

    This response makes no sense whatsoever, you can be against content you can complete. Some people are against certain genres of movies even though they technically can watch them.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What this thread has shown without a shadow of a doubt is that people are bad at statistics.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    My own experience has been like that too. HOT Raids have a much better reward (Legendary Armor) and I've been re-running them to offer that reward to newer players, especially when POF launched and many came back. To this day I haven't run Wing 7 once. To continue with my personal experience, I enjoy Raids that have clearly defined phases and escalated mechanics, something that HOT Raids used properly, while POF Raids did not do it as well. It's also why I don't like Slothasor, it's a fight which barely changes over time. Meanwhile, Vale Guardian, Matthias, Xera, Deimos are some of my favorite Raid bosses.

    Fair enough. Personally i also preferred HoT raids to w5 and w6 (can't speak of w7, since that one i haven't done as well). Although my preferences were (unsurprisingly) quite different than yours and leaned more towards the easy bosses.
    Nevertheless, i picked PoF wings because the talk was about specifically wing 7.

    For Anet, players that do the content once and never repeat it are way less important than those that will continue playing in it.

    Agreed. And Mike Z even said that they are going to put more emphasis on repeatable content because having unique assets and mechanics in a story instance that players play only once (or even not once) is a total waste of resources.

    I guess that's what they were aiming for with Strikes and DRMs - too bad they forgot to apply it to LS map design (even if Drizzlewood and Bjora were released piecemeal, they, alongside Grothmar, still used the old LS3/4 model where it's next to impossible to reuse maps later, after the episode that introduced them has finished). In that context limiting access to maps by having the episode unlocked, while potentially sensible from the business point of view (due to episodes having a gem price associated with them), are significantly hampering design possibilities. So, ironically, first moment when Mike Z's words actually fully applied is the Champions episode. Which happened to be released (and probably designed as well) long after he left the house.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    Here's a fact that does not require believing to be true: 70% of registered accounts in Gw2Efficiency are below 1k AP.

    Um, excuse me but no. What did I just read.

    Take a look at this screenshot from the official leaderboards

    So 80% of this game's accounts (not gw2efficiency) have lower than about 1150 AP. Which is the mid point between those two, the exact number is not known with my limited friend/guild list but if more people check theirs we might find the correct answer. Still 80% of ACCOUNTS have under 1147 AP (which is the number a player at 70% has)

    As for gw2efficiency, you can see here:

    the majority of accounts (62%) have the Respected Achiever title, which is awarded at 5k AP. Unfortunately there is no way to tell how many gw2efficiency users are between 1150 and 5000, but I'd hazard a guess that the majority of gw2efficiency accounts is somewhere in that bracket and very few are under it.

    Edit: because I've used the "70% of accounts have under 600 AP" before, I was talking about the entire game, not gw2efficiency, if the most dedicated (note the word) players had under 1k AP then the game would be dead at this point.

    Edit2: as for the argument of which type of player has a gw2efficiency account, those that play as much of this game as possible. As a matter of fact, 566 gw2efficiency accounts have the Furious Achiever title which is awarded at 40k AP. There are 185 accounts in NA at 40k+ and 488 in EU, 673 total, or 84% of those above 40k AP have a gw2efficiency account.

    Which means that according to official stat, likely 70% of player base has not passed Zhaitan story and less than 20% has even passed any episode in expansion or Living Story based on their cumulative AP.

    Here's a relative GW2Efficiency stat outside of raid:
    Only 23.8% has unlocked Fractal Initiate (fractal lv 1-25):
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=Fractal initiate&filter.category=30
    Only 11.0% has unlocked Fractal Expert (fractal lv 51-75):
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.category=148

    Hardly even moderately represent the hardcore community, and guess where do the majority of their gold came from if members of that site hardly do fractals?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    Since I have no gw2efficiency account, are you able to find how many % of the site playerbase has the "Unclean" title as a indicator of moderately hardcore players outside of raids?

    The Unclean is owned by 15.4% of gw2efficiency accounts.
    If we compare Bastion of the Penitent (which was released 3 months after Nightmare) with Nightmare Fractal CM:
    Cairn: 25.2%, Deimos: 15.7%, Nightmare CM: 15.4%

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    Here's a relative GW2Efficiency stat outside of raid:
    Only 23.8% has unlocked Fractal Initiate (fractal lv 1-25):
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=Fractal initiate&filter.category=30
    Only 11.0% has unlocked Fractal Expert (fractal lv 51-75):
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.category=148

    Ahem. Those fractal achievements were added later on (old ones were removed) and you had to replay all fractals of the relevant difficulties. I run Fractal T4s, I run Fractal CMs, I run Raids, and I don't have Fractal Adept or Fractal Expert because I don't really care to go back and replay every single fractal level I'm missing.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    Here's a relative GW2Efficiency stat outside of raid:
    Only 23.8% has unlocked Fractal Initiate (fractal lv 1-25):
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=Fractal initiate&filter.category=30
    Only 11.0% has unlocked Fractal Expert (fractal lv 51-75):
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.category=148

    Ahem. Those fractal achievements were added later on (old ones were removed) and you had to replay all fractals of the relevant difficulties. I run Fractal T4s, I run Fractal CMs, I run Raids, and I don't have Fractal Adept or Fractal Expert because I don't really care to go back and replay every single fractal level I'm missing.

    That is the purpose, since most frequent T4 runners are already part of that minority 15.4% Nightmare CM crowd, the Initiative/Expert stats represents the rest who frequent Fractals casually and would have already fulfilled these achievements over the course of the year(s). Which also proves to be a minority.

    So since the majority of these members do not frequent ANY instanced contents, they farm open map for the majority of their gold is it?
    Nope.
    Only 51% has ever slain the Legendary Mordrem Demolisher in the Silverwaste in last 7 years:
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.key=titles&filter.search=demo

    Again, veteran casual flipper site.

    *BTW, thanks for the effort, I didn't know how to operate that site until now

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    Again, veteran casual flipper site.

    TP barons are not casual players.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    Again, veteran casual flipper site.

    TP barons are not casual players.

    Given your previous assessment that GW2Efficiency is a hardcore site, I'm not surprised.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    Again, veteran casual flipper site.

    TP barons are not casual players.

    Given your previous assessment that GW2Efficiency is a hardcore site, I'm not surprised.

    Well, considering that most casuals don't use third party sites (and a number of them that i have known were not even aware we have forums, even though their playing times were in 4 digits - imagine that), someone that knows about that site, cares enough about what that site offers to make an account and generate an api key for it is already two steps above a typical casual.

    And TP barons are generally very hardcore, which is not surprising - if you play the market only casually, you most often than not are not only not earning much, but in a great danger of actually losing gold. Anyone that invests time and effort in learning the market to the point where they can reliably profit from it is not a casual player.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    Again, veteran casual flipper site.

    TP barons are not casual players.

    Given your previous assessment that GW2Efficiency is a hardcore site, I'm not surprised.

    Well, considering that most casuals don't use third party sites (and a number of them that i have known were not even aware we have forums, even though their playing times were in 4 digits - imagine that), someone that knows about that site, cares enough about what that site offers to make an account and generate an api key for it is already two steps above a typical casual.

    And TP barons are generally very hardcore, which is not surprising - if you play the market only casually, you most often than not are not only not earning much, but in a great danger of actually losing gold. Anyone that invests time and effort in learning the market to the point where they can reliably profit from it is not a casual player.

    Again, like dungeons experiences, you're placing a very narrowminded personal impressions over the grand scale of statistics.

    With a majority of 5k+ AP, these links above has clearly proven their participation and capability in contents over the years, when we are dividing the player base according to skill level and content difficulties, how much they study over the TP is completely irrelevant.
    And btw, only 0.6% has the "I'm Rich You Know" Title, so even the TP Barons you describe are the extreme minority.

    I know many casuals don't care much about 3rd party sites, but as diverted as the casual community gets, it doesn't mean this site does not attract many casuals who has been long with the game, the statistics clearly shows that.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    With a majority of 5k+ AP, these links above has clearly proven their participation and capability in contents over the years, when we are dividing the player base according to skill level and content difficulties, how much they study over the TP is completely irrelevant.

    You're the one that was talking about gw2eff being the site for casual flippers.

    And btw, only 0.6% has the "I'm Rich You Know" Title, so even the TP Barons you describe are the extreme minority.

    The few extremely wealthy individuals i know don't have that title, because they don't spend gold for vanity. They invest it to get more gold (and that title gives absolutely no return). Even if buying that title would be peanuts for them

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    With a majority of 5k+ AP, these links above has clearly proven their participation and capability in contents over the years, when we are dividing the player base according to skill level and content difficulties, how much they study over the TP is completely irrelevant.

    You're the one that was talking about gw2eff being the site for casual flippers.

    Yes and with proof, therefore it is the site for veteran casual flippers.

    And btw, only 0.6% has the "I'm Rich You Know" Title, so even the TP Barons you describe are the extreme minority.

    The few extremely wealthy individuals i know don't have that title, because they don't spend gold for vanity. They invest it to get more gold (and that title gives absolutely no return). Even if buying that title would be peanuts for them

    Again, a few individuals you claim to know does not represent the whole site statistics in a grand scale.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    With a majority of 5k+ AP, these links above has clearly proven their participation and capability in contents over the years, when we are dividing the player base according to skill level and content difficulties, how much they study over the TP is completely irrelevant.

    You're the one that was talking about gw2eff being the site for casual flippers.

    Yes and with proof, therefore it is the site for veteran casual flippers.

    Nah, you gave no proof at all.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    With a majority of 5k+ AP, these links above has clearly proven their participation and capability in contents over the years, when we are dividing the player base according to skill level and content difficulties, how much they study over the TP is completely irrelevant.

    You're the one that was talking about gw2eff being the site for casual flippers.

    Yes and with proof, therefore it is the site for veteran casual flippers.

    And btw, only 0.6% has the "I'm Rich You Know" Title, so even the TP Barons you describe are the extreme minority.

    The few extremely wealthy individuals i know don't have that title, because they don't spend gold for vanity. They invest it to get more gold (and that title gives absolutely no return). Even if buying that title would be peanuts for them

    Again, a few individuals you claim to know does not represent the whole site statistics in a grand scale.

    Veteran Casual Flippers? I'm not sure I've seen any argument in this whole argument so far that indicates the desperation a; raider will go to to prove a point. Exactly how many veteran casual flippers do you think there are and why would they be using something like efficiency instead of the sites made for flipping like GW2tp.com or lunchbox or one of the others.

    GW2efficiency is great for altoholics and people who craft legendaries. I'm pretty sure most casuals aren't crafting all that many legendaries and so they just use the wiki.

    Edit: More to the point, using AP is pointless since lots of veterans have alt accounts, including veterans who raid in my guild. They simply use them for log in rewards and extra storage. Since they're only logging in, they're going to have very low AP even though they'd count in statistics. Which means 90% of my accounts don't have any T2 fractals at all, but my main account has finished every fractal. My wife too. That's 90% of both of our accounts or 9 out of 10, since those other accounts simply feed our main account. That would easily explain why so many people on gw2efficiency are under 1000 AP. And of course some just stopped playing as well.

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    TP flipping? I think we are getting more and more away from OP's point.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:
    TP flipping? I think we are getting more and more away from OP's point.

    It relates, if people are trying to use GW2Efficiency as a way to imply the number of raiders in this game. Obviously if there aren't many raiders by percentage, Anet shouldn't waste resources to put one in the new expansion.

    The current argument, according to one guy, is that Veteran Casual TP flippers make up a significant percentage of GW2 effiiency and that raiders don't have a reason to have a GW2 efficiency account.

    I believe most raiders probably do have a GW2efficiency account. It's useful for one thing. As raiders they have reasons to do research outside the game and they'd have at least heard of it. The more hardcore you are, the more likely you are to go to other sites full stop.

    My argument is GW2efficiency would have the hardest core players and those most likely to raid. That's why we're talking about tp flipping. Because one of the raiders believes that there are enough veteran casual tp flippers to influence the GW2 effiency stats. I don't believe it, and said so.

    I don't believe most casuals are on GW2efficiency and as a result, I believe GW2efficiency stats will show a greater percentage of raiders than those that don't use efficiency.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    With a majority of 5k+ AP, these links above has clearly proven their participation and capability in contents over the years, when we are dividing the player base according to skill level and content difficulties, how much they study over the TP is completely irrelevant.

    You're the one that was talking about gw2eff being the site for casual flippers.

    Yes and with proof, therefore it is the site for veteran casual flippers.

    And btw, only 0.6% has the "I'm Rich You Know" Title, so even the TP Barons you describe are the extreme minority.

    The few extremely wealthy individuals i know don't have that title, because they don't spend gold for vanity. They invest it to get more gold (and that title gives absolutely no return). Even if buying that title would be peanuts for them

    Again, a few individuals you claim to know does not represent the whole site statistics in a grand scale.

    Veteran Casual Flippers? I'm not sure I've seen any argument in this whole argument so far that indicates the desperation a; raider will go to to prove a point. Exactly how many veteran casual flippers do you think there are and why would they be using something like efficiency instead of the sites made for flipping like GW2tp.com or lunchbox or one of the others.

    GW2efficiency is great for altoholics and people who craft legendaries. I'm pretty sure most casuals aren't crafting all that many legendaries and so they just use the wiki.

    Edit: More to the point, using AP is pointless since lots of veterans have alt accounts, including veterans who raid in my guild. They simply use them for log in rewards and extra storage. Since they're only logging in, they're going to have very low AP even though they'd count in statistics. Which means 90% of my accounts don't have any T2 fractals at all, but my main account has finished every fractal. My wife too. That's 90% of both of our accounts or 9 out of 10, since those other accounts simply feed our main account. That would easily explain why so many people on gw2efficiency are under 1000 AP. And of course some just stopped playing as well.

    Another who threw toxic comments toward Raider community without ever looking at statistics.

    Only 30% in GW2Efficiency possess the Master Crafter title:
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.key=titles&filter.search=master crafter

    Even more relative stats for GW2Efficiency member's capability to craft Gen 2 Legendary:
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=grandmaster
    Only 55% ever reached lv. 500 Weaponsmith
    Only 39% ever reached Lv 500 Artificer
    Only 36% ever reached Lv 500 Huntsman
    So much for crafting legendary.

    Additionally:
    Only 14% ever reached lvl 500 Chef
    This proves the site members to be indisputably casual.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    With a majority of 5k+ AP, these links above has clearly proven their participation and capability in contents over the years, when we are dividing the player base according to skill level and content difficulties, how much they study over the TP is completely irrelevant.

    You're the one that was talking about gw2eff being the site for casual flippers.

    Yes and with proof, therefore it is the site for veteran casual flippers.

    And btw, only 0.6% has the "I'm Rich You Know" Title, so even the TP Barons you describe are the extreme minority.

    The few extremely wealthy individuals i know don't have that title, because they don't spend gold for vanity. They invest it to get more gold (and that title gives absolutely no return). Even if buying that title would be peanuts for them

    Again, a few individuals you claim to know does not represent the whole site statistics in a grand scale.

    Veteran Casual Flippers? I'm not sure I've seen any argument in this whole argument so far that indicates the desperation a; raider will go to to prove a point. Exactly how many veteran casual flippers do you think there are and why would they be using something like efficiency instead of the sites made for flipping like GW2tp.com or lunchbox or one of the others.

    GW2efficiency is great for altoholics and people who craft legendaries. I'm pretty sure most casuals aren't crafting all that many legendaries and so they just use the wiki.

    Edit: More to the point, using AP is pointless since lots of veterans have alt accounts, including veterans who raid in my guild. They simply use them for log in rewards and extra storage. Since they're only logging in, they're going to have very low AP even though they'd count in statistics. Which means 90% of my accounts don't have any T2 fractals at all, but my main account has finished every fractal. My wife too. That's 90% of both of our accounts or 9 out of 10, since those other accounts simply feed our main account. That would easily explain why so many people on gw2efficiency are under 1000 AP. And of course some just stopped playing as well.

    Another who threw toxic comments toward Raider community without ever looking at statistics.

    Only 30% in GW2Efficiency possess the Master Crafter title:
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.key=titles&filter.search=master crafter

    Even more relative stats for GW2Efficiency member's capability to craft Gen 2 Legendary:
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=grandmaster
    Only 55% ever reached lv. 500 Weaponsmith
    Only 39% ever reached Lv 500 Artificer
    Only 36% ever reached Lv 500 Huntsman
    So much for crafting legendary.

    Additionally:
    Only 14% ever reached lvl 500 Chef
    This proves the site members to be indisputably casual.

    I have 10 accounts on Guild Wars 2 efficiency, one of which has the master crafter title. That's precisely WHY it's useless for this. Because people do list alt accounts but don't necessarily use them.

    Someone here is trying to prove people do raids by GW2 efficiency. It's just not useful for that. Do you know who actually has stats on who does and doesn't do raids? Anet.

    And they've said not enough people do them. Do raiders know better than Anet about how many raiders there actually are?

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    With a majority of 5k+ AP, these links above has clearly proven their participation and capability in contents over the years, when we are dividing the player base according to skill level and content difficulties, how much they study over the TP is completely irrelevant.

    You're the one that was talking about gw2eff being the site for casual flippers.

    Yes and with proof, therefore it is the site for veteran casual flippers.

    And btw, only 0.6% has the "I'm Rich You Know" Title, so even the TP Barons you describe are the extreme minority.

    The few extremely wealthy individuals i know don't have that title, because they don't spend gold for vanity. They invest it to get more gold (and that title gives absolutely no return). Even if buying that title would be peanuts for them

    Again, a few individuals you claim to know does not represent the whole site statistics in a grand scale.

    Veteran Casual Flippers? I'm not sure I've seen any argument in this whole argument so far that indicates the desperation a; raider will go to to prove a point. Exactly how many veteran casual flippers do you think there are and why would they be using something like efficiency instead of the sites made for flipping like GW2tp.com or lunchbox or one of the others.

    GW2efficiency is great for altoholics and people who craft legendaries. I'm pretty sure most casuals aren't crafting all that many legendaries and so they just use the wiki.

    Edit: More to the point, using AP is pointless since lots of veterans have alt accounts, including veterans who raid in my guild. They simply use them for log in rewards and extra storage. Since they're only logging in, they're going to have very low AP even though they'd count in statistics. Which means 90% of my accounts don't have any T2 fractals at all, but my main account has finished every fractal. My wife too. That's 90% of both of our accounts or 9 out of 10, since those other accounts simply feed our main account. That would easily explain why so many people on gw2efficiency are under 1000 AP. And of course some just stopped playing as well.

    Another who threw toxic comments toward Raider community without ever looking at statistics.

    Only 30% in GW2Efficiency possess the Master Crafter title:
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.key=titles&filter.search=master crafter

    Even more relative stats for GW2Efficiency member's capability to craft Gen 2 Legendary:
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=grandmaster
    Only 55% ever reached lv. 500 Weaponsmith
    Only 39% ever reached Lv 500 Artificer
    Only 36% ever reached Lv 500 Huntsman
    So much for crafting legendary.

    Additionally:
    Only 14% ever reached lvl 500 Chef
    This proves the site members to be indisputably casual.

    I have 10 accounts on Guild Wars 2 efficiency, one of which has the master crafter title. That's precisely WHY it's useless for this. Because people do list alt accounts but don't necessarily use them.

    Someone here is trying to prove people do raids by GW2 efficiency. It's just not useful for that. Do you know who actually has stats on who does and doesn't do raids? Anet.

    And they've said not enough people do them. Do raiders know better than Anet about how many raiders there actually are?

    81% are accounts that's been actively played:
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=fractal experience
    62% has explored into the depths of Dragon's Stand
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=pride of lion
    62% achieved least 5k AP
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.key=titles&filter.search=Respected Achiever

    So much for alt accounts never used.

    Here's how many who frequent Drizzlewood:
    18.7% unlocked Tribune Slayer:
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=tribune slayer

    Yet with a statistics this casual, still least 30% defeated Vale Guardian:
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=beyond the vale

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    With a majority of 5k+ AP, these links above has clearly proven their participation and capability in contents over the years, when we are dividing the player base according to skill level and content difficulties, how much they study over the TP is completely irrelevant.

    You're the one that was talking about gw2eff being the site for casual flippers.

    Yes and with proof, therefore it is the site for veteran casual flippers.

    And btw, only 0.6% has the "I'm Rich You Know" Title, so even the TP Barons you describe are the extreme minority.

    The few extremely wealthy individuals i know don't have that title, because they don't spend gold for vanity. They invest it to get more gold (and that title gives absolutely no return). Even if buying that title would be peanuts for them

    Again, a few individuals you claim to know does not represent the whole site statistics in a grand scale.

    Veteran Casual Flippers? I'm not sure I've seen any argument in this whole argument so far that indicates the desperation a; raider will go to to prove a point. Exactly how many veteran casual flippers do you think there are and why would they be using something like efficiency instead of the sites made for flipping like GW2tp.com or lunchbox or one of the others.

    GW2efficiency is great for altoholics and people who craft legendaries. I'm pretty sure most casuals aren't crafting all that many legendaries and so they just use the wiki.

    Edit: More to the point, using AP is pointless since lots of veterans have alt accounts, including veterans who raid in my guild. They simply use them for log in rewards and extra storage. Since they're only logging in, they're going to have very low AP even though they'd count in statistics. Which means 90% of my accounts don't have any T2 fractals at all, but my main account has finished every fractal. My wife too. That's 90% of both of our accounts or 9 out of 10, since those other accounts simply feed our main account. That would easily explain why so many people on gw2efficiency are under 1000 AP. And of course some just stopped playing as well.

    Another who threw toxic comments toward Raider community without ever looking at statistics.

    Only 30% in GW2Efficiency possess the Master Crafter title:
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.key=titles&filter.search=master crafter

    Even more relative stats for GW2Efficiency member's capability to craft Gen 2 Legendary:
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=grandmaster
    Only 55% ever reached lv. 500 Weaponsmith
    Only 39% ever reached Lv 500 Artificer
    Only 36% ever reached Lv 500 Huntsman
    So much for crafting legendary.

    Additionally:
    Only 14% ever reached lvl 500 Chef
    This proves the site members to be indisputably casual.

    I have 10 accounts on Guild Wars 2 efficiency, one of which has the master crafter title. That's precisely WHY it's useless for this. Because people do list alt accounts but don't necessarily use them.

    Someone here is trying to prove people do raids by GW2 efficiency. It's just not useful for that. Do you know who actually has stats on who does and doesn't do raids? Anet.

    And they've said not enough people do them. Do raiders know better than Anet about how many raiders there actually are?

    81% are accounts that's been actively played:
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=fractal experience
    62% has explored into the depths of Dragon's Stand
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=pride of lion
    62% achieved least 5k AP
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.key=titles&filter.search=Respected Achiever

    So much for alt accounts never used.

    Here's how many who frequent Drizzlewood:
    18.7% unlocked Tribune Slayer:
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=tribune slayer

    Yet with a statistics this casual, still least 30% defeated Vale Guardian:
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=beyond the vale

    You're still trying to prove something without any evidence.

    Let's look at what you said. I have ten accounts and I've been to drizzlewood on two of them, but a few of them have more than 5000 points. It's all nonsense. You have data that has no provenence. That's all you have.

    Again, Anet has the data. All of it. Anet knows how many raiders there are. You don't have to convince me, you have to convince them. But I guess if we don't get that raid, we'll know not enough people are raiding.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    With a majority of 5k+ AP, these links above has clearly proven their participation and capability in contents over the years, when we are dividing the player base according to skill level and content difficulties, how much they study over the TP is completely irrelevant.

    You're the one that was talking about gw2eff being the site for casual flippers.

    Yes and with proof, therefore it is the site for veteran casual flippers.

    And btw, only 0.6% has the "I'm Rich You Know" Title, so even the TP Barons you describe are the extreme minority.

    The few extremely wealthy individuals i know don't have that title, because they don't spend gold for vanity. They invest it to get more gold (and that title gives absolutely no return). Even if buying that title would be peanuts for them

    Again, a few individuals you claim to know does not represent the whole site statistics in a grand scale.

    Veteran Casual Flippers? I'm not sure I've seen any argument in this whole argument so far that indicates the desperation a; raider will go to to prove a point. Exactly how many veteran casual flippers do you think there are and why would they be using something like efficiency instead of the sites made for flipping like GW2tp.com or lunchbox or one of the others.

    GW2efficiency is great for altoholics and people who craft legendaries. I'm pretty sure most casuals aren't crafting all that many legendaries and so they just use the wiki.

    Edit: More to the point, using AP is pointless since lots of veterans have alt accounts, including veterans who raid in my guild. They simply use them for log in rewards and extra storage. Since they're only logging in, they're going to have very low AP even though they'd count in statistics. Which means 90% of my accounts don't have any T2 fractals at all, but my main account has finished every fractal. My wife too. That's 90% of both of our accounts or 9 out of 10, since those other accounts simply feed our main account. That would easily explain why so many people on gw2efficiency are under 1000 AP. And of course some just stopped playing as well.

    Another who threw toxic comments toward Raider community without ever looking at statistics.

    Only 30% in GW2Efficiency possess the Master Crafter title:
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.key=titles&filter.search=master crafter

    Even more relative stats for GW2Efficiency member's capability to craft Gen 2 Legendary:
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=grandmaster
    Only 55% ever reached lv. 500 Weaponsmith
    Only 39% ever reached Lv 500 Artificer
    Only 36% ever reached Lv 500 Huntsman
    So much for crafting legendary.

    Additionally:
    Only 14% ever reached lvl 500 Chef
    This proves the site members to be indisputably casual.

    I have 10 accounts and 500 Chef on one of them. This proves you're ignoring what I've been saying all along. What evidence do you have that raiders don't have alt accounts?

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    With a majority of 5k+ AP, these links above has clearly proven their participation and capability in contents over the years, when we are dividing the player base according to skill level and content difficulties, how much they study over the TP is completely irrelevant.

    You're the one that was talking about gw2eff being the site for casual flippers.

    Yes and with proof, therefore it is the site for veteran casual flippers.

    And btw, only 0.6% has the "I'm Rich You Know" Title, so even the TP Barons you describe are the extreme minority.

    The few extremely wealthy individuals i know don't have that title, because they don't spend gold for vanity. They invest it to get more gold (and that title gives absolutely no return). Even if buying that title would be peanuts for them

    Again, a few individuals you claim to know does not represent the whole site statistics in a grand scale.

    Veteran Casual Flippers? I'm not sure I've seen any argument in this whole argument so far that indicates the desperation a; raider will go to to prove a point. Exactly how many veteran casual flippers do you think there are and why would they be using something like efficiency instead of the sites made for flipping like GW2tp.com or lunchbox or one of the others.

    GW2efficiency is great for altoholics and people who craft legendaries. I'm pretty sure most casuals aren't crafting all that many legendaries and so they just use the wiki.

    Edit: More to the point, using AP is pointless since lots of veterans have alt accounts, including veterans who raid in my guild. They simply use them for log in rewards and extra storage. Since they're only logging in, they're going to have very low AP even though they'd count in statistics. Which means 90% of my accounts don't have any T2 fractals at all, but my main account has finished every fractal. My wife too. That's 90% of both of our accounts or 9 out of 10, since those other accounts simply feed our main account. That would easily explain why so many people on gw2efficiency are under 1000 AP. And of course some just stopped playing as well.

    Another who threw toxic comments toward Raider community without ever looking at statistics.

    Only 30% in GW2Efficiency possess the Master Crafter title:
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.key=titles&filter.search=master crafter

    Even more relative stats for GW2Efficiency member's capability to craft Gen 2 Legendary:
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=grandmaster
    Only 55% ever reached lv. 500 Weaponsmith
    Only 39% ever reached Lv 500 Artificer
    Only 36% ever reached Lv 500 Huntsman
    So much for crafting legendary.

    Additionally:
    Only 14% ever reached lvl 500 Chef
    This proves the site members to be indisputably casual.

    I have 10 accounts on Guild Wars 2 efficiency, one of which has the master crafter title. That's precisely WHY it's useless for this. Because people do list alt accounts but don't necessarily use them.

    Someone here is trying to prove people do raids by GW2 efficiency. It's just not useful for that. Do you know who actually has stats on who does and doesn't do raids? Anet.

    And they've said not enough people do them. Do raiders know better than Anet about how many raiders there actually are?

    81% are accounts that's been actively played:
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=fractal experience
    62% has explored into the depths of Dragon's Stand
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=pride of lion
    62% achieved least 5k AP
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.key=titles&filter.search=Respected Achiever

    So much for alt accounts never used.

    Here's how many who frequent Drizzlewood:
    18.7% unlocked Tribune Slayer:
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=tribune slayer

    Yet with a statistics this casual, still least 30% defeated Vale Guardian:
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=beyond the vale

    You're still trying to prove something without any evidence.

    Let's look at what you said. I have ten accounts and I've been to drizzlewood on two of them, but a few of them have more than 5000 points. It's all nonsense. You have data that has no provenence. That's all you have.

    Again, Anet has the data. All of it. Anet knows how many raiders there are. You don't have to convince me, you have to convince them. But I guess if we don't get that raid, we'll know not enough people are raiding.

    Still irrelevant how many accounts a casual player may have, since we already know many Botters apply multi accounts onto that site to surveillance daily account value growth per time to determine efficiencies(since they don't farm raw gold, it's difficult to manually calculate loot values).

    Active players with alt accounts isn't the majority among both sides of hardcore/casual spectrum, and raiders with alt account usually raid with his alts for the extra gold, and raid currencies which can be tracible here with W7 Sabir which only account in 9% completion rate for an relative non-demanding boss for Gaeting Crystal.
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=storm chaser
    One statistic don't hold water, but when they compare with each other, it still tells a story of what the community relatively is in the majority, which isn't of Raiders.

    What's proven is that it is not a hardcore oriented site and real world statics of Raid participation is higher than a handful of members who's focus isn't in the gameplay in the first place. When over 70~80% accounts are vacant in official stat, we barely have enough players for anything, considering which side is a majority is a very niche thing at this point here.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    What's proven is that it is not a hardcore oriented site

    No. It's not. So far you've been talking about trends on the site (and linking them in a way that fits your preconceptions, but is not necessarily true). You'd still need to make a next step and point out how those statistics relate to the whole of gw2 community (and why).

    One statistic don't hold water, but when they compare with each other, it still tells a story of what the community relatively is in the majority, which isn't of Raiders.

    Yes, the community in majority does not consist of raiders. And this obviously has also an impact on gw2efficiency to some degree. It's not a site purely for hardcores (it's too big for that). It's still a site where the percentage of hardcores (including raiders) is higher than in overall community. Probably much higher, although we don;t have stats for that.

    This is caused by something you never bothered to address - that casuals do not, for the most part, use third party sites. There are, obviously, exceptions, but within casual group they are an exception and are in a minority. In fact, the willingness to use external resources is one of the core features of more hardcore approach to gaming.

    Most casuals just play the game, and don't use other sites - not even forums. Hardcore players are always overrepresented in such places. If they turn out to be in a minority even there, it just shows how few of them are overall.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    What's proven is that it is not a hardcore oriented site

    No. It's not. So far you've been talking about trends on the site (and linking them in a way that fits your preconceptions, but is not necessarily true). You'd still need to make a next step and point out how those statistics relate to the whole of gw2 community (and why).

    You're the one who's making the assumption that this site be to more hardcore oriented without bringing in even ONE single statistic, not me.
    All I did was stating this site membership only caters to some specific groups of people of interest that has no correlations with Raiders with statistics of activities to prove.

    One statistic don't hold water, but when they compare with each other, it still tells a story of what the community relatively is in the majority, which isn't of Raiders.

    Yes, the community in majority does not consist of raiders. And this obviously has also an impact on gw2efficiency to some degree. It's not a site purely for hardcores (it's too big for that). It's still a site where the percentage of hardcores (including raiders) is higher than in overall community. Probably much higher, although we don;t have stats for that.

    Please bring in your statistics to prove these assumptions true and how it relate to the whole of gw2 community (and why).

    This is caused by something you never bothered to address - that casuals do not, for the most part, use third party sites. There are, obviously, exceptions, but within casual group they are an exception and are in a minority. In fact, the willingness to use external resources is one of the core features of more hardcore approach to gaming.
    Most casuals just play the game, and don't use other sites - not even forums. Hardcore players are always overrepresented in such places. If they turn out to be in a minority even there, it just shows how few of them are overall.

    Please also bring in your statistics to prove these assumptions true and how it relate to the whole of gw2 community (and why).
    If you haven't noticed, so far all your posts in this threads in based on assumptions with zero actual base.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So, you're saying that it's completely normal for casuals to use third-party sites - and more normal than for hardcores to do the same.

    Ok, i'm done here. I understand that this is 1st of April, but that's way too much of a joke for me to take in.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.