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EoD expansion should have new RAID

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  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement.

    Okay, so you are just not going to read, address or make any arguments and just repeat that narrative as usual, as if game development happens in a complete vacuum and companies somehow have all the data perfectly conveying the fundamental truth about player interest, which is why no game ever misses the mark or fails...

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yukarishura.4790 said:
    I know many guilds with 100+ players dedicated only to raiding, we might as well be at around 1k on the European-server, who actually clean raids weekly

    OK great ... that doesn't change the fact that if raids were worth it for Anet to develop, they would still be doing it.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement.

    Okay, so you are just not going to read, address or make any arguments and just repeat that narrative as usual, as if game development happens in a complete vacuum and companies somehow have all the data perfectly conveying the fundamental truth about player interest, which is why no game ever misses the mark or fails...

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement.

    Okay, so you are just not going to read, address or make any arguments and just repeat that narrative as usual, as if game development happens in a complete vacuum and companies somehow have all the data perfectly conveying the fundamental truth about player interest, which is why no game ever misses the mark or fails...

    You probably shouldn't engage with Obtena. I gave an explanation why releasing raids immediately after the expac might be worth it, but they just bounce to their talking points without actually addressing my point.

    It is known.

    It just feels bad to let misrepresentations, strawmen or empty/ignorant talking points stand, but I suppose the exhaustion with that is the tactic - repeat the same flawed/ignorant point over and over again without elaborations or addressing counter-points until people either start to believe or give up trying.

    By far not the first time they imploded a thread and discussion that way, it's a shame it just takes one bad actor.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement.

    Okay, so you are just not going to read, address or make any arguments and just repeat that narrative as usual, as if game development happens in a complete vacuum and companies somehow have all the data perfectly conveying the fundamental truth about player interest, which is why no game ever misses the mark or fails...

    Well, that's just sensational on your part. You make all these arguments ... except they ignore the fact that if raids were sustainable content, we would still have them. I'm not going to argue with someone that simply denies a fundamental fact that results in their position being irrelevant. There is nothing that can be said for justifying raids if the ROI isn't there to create them.

    Put it this way ... if you need something massive like an expansion to justify continued support and development of content like raids ... then raids are NOT a sustainable revenue-creating element for the game.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement.

    Okay, so you are just not going to read, address or make any arguments and just repeat that narrative as usual, as if game development happens in a complete vacuum and companies somehow have all the data perfectly conveying the fundamental truth about player interest, which is why no game ever misses the mark or fails...

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement.

    Okay, so you are just not going to read, address or make any arguments and just repeat that narrative as usual, as if game development happens in a complete vacuum and companies somehow have all the data perfectly conveying the fundamental truth about player interest, which is why no game ever misses the mark or fails...

    You probably shouldn't engage with Obtena. I gave an explanation why releasing raids immediately after the expac might be worth it, but they just bounce to their talking points without actually addressing my point.

    Hold on you SPECULATED why releasing raids immediately after the expac might be worth it. There is NO value in debating over speculation.

    If Anet needs something massive like an expansion to justify continued support and development of content like raids ... then raids are NOT a sustainable revenue-creating element for the game.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which explains the sever drop in revenue, but not the continuous decline before.

    Careful with those "recovery" explanations. The revenue "recovered" during a pandemic to before announcement levels, which were still in constant decline. Hardly a strong foundation for an argument. Meanwhile the "recovered" revenue has been on a constant decline too, which mirrors pre announcement revenue shrinkage.

    Notice that the same shrinkage happened during raids "peak time" as well. It is just something that seems to happen in-between expansions. It's the expansions, not raid releases, that cause population/revenue spikes.

    This happens in practically any MMORPG, btw - the content in-between expansions is mostly there to slow/delay the decay. It does not bring in new players, nor it brings back old players that temporarily stopped playing. It's always expansions that mark the point at which new players come/old players return. Why is that so, i won't speculate here (as it is big enough a topic to be worth a completely separate thread), but that's how it is. GW2 is not an exception.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    With Q4 2019 being the worst quarter and Q1 2020 being the 2nd worst. So it was there at the end of 2019/start of 2020 that we saw a great decrease in revenue.

    Isn't that because it was the announcement for the IBS (30th of August, 2019, iirc) that finally made people realize that the earlier hints about expansion being cancelled are not just hints, but a reality? Is it accident that the revenue started to get better shortly after they announced that there will be an expansion after all?

    Of course, there were a few other things that undermined people's trust in the game around that time - MO leaving (and then MZ ninja leaving shortly after) certainly didn;t help either. Until expansion announcement a lot of people honestly didn't believe this game had any future beyond LS5, and talks about maintenance mode were a daily occurence. Which definitely wasn't helping revenue at all.

    Isn't the discussion about raids not about gaining new people during the decay. But to slow the decay down.
    As far as i know nobodies claiming that with raids no decay would happen, just that it would be slower.

    I think the point is that decay rate is irrelevant if raids were not worth the investment to create and maintain to begin with.

    That might depend more on the general population levels though. In that case raids might be worth after a new expac is released.

    Maybe ... but speculation isn't a good basis to justify re-establishing failed content. Do you think it's a good bet for Anet to anticipate the people that come back for EoD will have increased interested in raiding to the point they create new ones? Why would we think it would be any different than expansion 2? IIRC, raid development dropped significantly AFTER PoF ... so my bet says raiding interest based on general population increases isn't enough.

    This debate has been had multiple times. Raiding in this game is a niche ... and clearly that niche can't sustain the development of that kind of content. Raids in their format simply does not appeal to enough people. OP has some correct indirect insights ... game is for casuals ... but raids are not for them. But make no mistake, no amount of false claims and scapegoating the OP can do will change the data that tells Anet raids aren't worth the investment to create.

    But apparently their was enough attention just after Pof to create more raids. I'm not arguing that it isn't a niche activity. I'm arguing that right after an expac their might be enough people playing the game such that the niche is worth it for some time.
    To demonstrate by example presume that gw2 has 2500 people playing and 2 percent are raiding. That would be 50 people. Now imagine their needs to be 100 people to raid to make it word it, and an expac brings the population to 10000. then with a 2percent participation raid we would have 200, twice as much as would be worth it.

    Maybe ... that just goes back to my point ... Anet has whatever data they need to convince themselves raids aren't good in GW2. We don't. There is nothing to suggest for a short amount of time after a new expansion, it will be 'good' to make a new raid for Anet because the people that are coming back aren't doing it for a couple of new raids until Anet drops them again like they did after POF. Raids are just NOT sustainable content in this game ... if it was, we would STILL have them.

    Can you actually address my point or not? Because everything you said didn't address what i said.

  • yukarishura.4790yukarishura.4790 Member ✭✭✭

    Ok so to be clear Im not even having an us vs them rhetoric, I am just saying raids are far from dead, and usually people who think raiding is elitist are the ones who cry if you tell them what to improve or whatever, happens all the time, but that's not the point, why does the community in GW2 actually have so many raid trainings? people literally spend like 2 hours for one wing to explain it to new people FOR FREE!!! Imagine the committment to do that (I have never trained anyone myself but respect those who do) , I am just saying a significant population likes raids, I personally do not know people that log in to only farm metas and wait for stories to get released. People usually do fractals....and, surprisingly, raids. I know WvW gets a lot of complaints that people want it to be rebalanced because that WvW niche is also a bit abandoned. Whilst, there are many guilds who are playing WvW still quite a lot, they are keeping the game alive too So what do we have now?. WVW , raids and fractals...Honestly, the game will be boring if the attention of ANET only goes to gem store and some story....(I mean, why not have some challenge, some motivation to keep going, and not just fashion wars and mindless gold farming on Drizzlewood?) Peace out

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which explains the sever drop in revenue, but not the continuous decline before.

    Careful with those "recovery" explanations. The revenue "recovered" during a pandemic to before announcement levels, which were still in constant decline. Hardly a strong foundation for an argument. Meanwhile the "recovered" revenue has been on a constant decline too, which mirrors pre announcement revenue shrinkage.

    Notice that the same shrinkage happened during raids "peak time" as well. It is just something that seems to happen in-between expansions. It's the expansions, not raid releases, that cause population/revenue spikes.

    This happens in practically any MMORPG, btw - the content in-between expansions is mostly there to slow/delay the decay. It does not bring in new players, nor it brings back old players that temporarily stopped playing. It's always expansions that mark the point at which new players come/old players return. Why is that so, i won't speculate here (as it is big enough a topic to be worth a completely separate thread), but that's how it is. GW2 is not an exception.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    With Q4 2019 being the worst quarter and Q1 2020 being the 2nd worst. So it was there at the end of 2019/start of 2020 that we saw a great decrease in revenue.

    Isn't that because it was the announcement for the IBS (30th of August, 2019, iirc) that finally made people realize that the earlier hints about expansion being cancelled are not just hints, but a reality? Is it accident that the revenue started to get better shortly after they announced that there will be an expansion after all?

    Of course, there were a few other things that undermined people's trust in the game around that time - MO leaving (and then MZ ninja leaving shortly after) certainly didn;t help either. Until expansion announcement a lot of people honestly didn't believe this game had any future beyond LS5, and talks about maintenance mode were a daily occurence. Which definitely wasn't helping revenue at all.

    Isn't the discussion about raids not about gaining new people during the decay. But to slow the decay down.
    As far as i know nobodies claiming that with raids no decay would happen, just that it would be slower.

    I think the point is that decay rate is irrelevant if raids were not worth the investment to create and maintain to begin with.

    That might depend more on the general population levels though. In that case raids might be worth after a new expac is released.

    Maybe ... but speculation isn't a good basis to justify re-establishing failed content. Do you think it's a good bet for Anet to anticipate the people that come back for EoD will have increased interested in raiding to the point they create new ones? Why would we think it would be any different than expansion 2? IIRC, raid development dropped significantly AFTER PoF ... so my bet says raiding interest based on general population increases isn't enough.

    This debate has been had multiple times. Raiding in this game is a niche ... and clearly that niche can't sustain the development of that kind of content. Raids in their format simply does not appeal to enough people. OP has some correct indirect insights ... game is for casuals ... but raids are not for them. But make no mistake, no amount of false claims and scapegoating the OP can do will change the data that tells Anet raids aren't worth the investment to create.

    But apparently their was enough attention just after Pof to create more raids. I'm not arguing that it isn't a niche activity. I'm arguing that right after an expac their might be enough people playing the game such that the niche is worth it for some time.
    To demonstrate by example presume that gw2 has 2500 people playing and 2 percent are raiding. That would be 50 people. Now imagine their needs to be 100 people to raid to make it word it, and an expac brings the population to 10000. then with a 2percent participation raid we would have 200, twice as much as would be worth it.

    Maybe ... that just goes back to my point ... Anet has whatever data they need to convince themselves raids aren't good in GW2. We don't. There is nothing to suggest for a short amount of time after a new expansion, it will be 'good' to make a new raid for Anet because the people that are coming back aren't doing it for a couple of new raids until Anet drops them again like they did after POF. Raids are just NOT sustainable content in this game ... if it was, we would STILL have them.

    Can you actually address my point or not? Because everything you said didn't address what i said.

    Can I address your speculation? With what? More speculation? OK ... I speculate you are wrong ... because we don't have raids anymore. Raids are not sustainable content in GW2. Anet shouldn't waste time developing unsustainable content.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement.

    Okay, so you are just not going to read, address or make any arguments and just repeat that narrative as usual, as if game development happens in a complete vacuum and companies somehow have all the data perfectly conveying the fundamental truth about player interest, which is why no game ever misses the mark or fails...

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement.

    Okay, so you are just not going to read, address or make any arguments and just repeat that narrative as usual, as if game development happens in a complete vacuum and companies somehow have all the data perfectly conveying the fundamental truth about player interest, which is why no game ever misses the mark or fails...

    You probably shouldn't engage with Obtena. I gave an explanation why releasing raids immediately after the expac might be worth it, but they just bounce to their talking points without actually addressing my point.

    Hold on you SPECULATED why releasing raids immediately after the expac might be worth it.

    If Anet needs something massive like an expansion to justify continued support and development of content like raids ... then raids are NOT a sustainable revenue-creating element for the game.

    It doesn't need to be sustainable for all the time, as general population shrinks all niche content take a hit. My point is that content development depends on what the general population is and content can be worth it in specific moments of a games existence.

  • yukarishura.4790yukarishura.4790 Member ✭✭✭

    unsustainable content, lmao, then the entire game, besides gem store and LW is unsastainable

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which explains the sever drop in revenue, but not the continuous decline before.

    Careful with those "recovery" explanations. The revenue "recovered" during a pandemic to before announcement levels, which were still in constant decline. Hardly a strong foundation for an argument. Meanwhile the "recovered" revenue has been on a constant decline too, which mirrors pre announcement revenue shrinkage.

    Notice that the same shrinkage happened during raids "peak time" as well. It is just something that seems to happen in-between expansions. It's the expansions, not raid releases, that cause population/revenue spikes.

    This happens in practically any MMORPG, btw - the content in-between expansions is mostly there to slow/delay the decay. It does not bring in new players, nor it brings back old players that temporarily stopped playing. It's always expansions that mark the point at which new players come/old players return. Why is that so, i won't speculate here (as it is big enough a topic to be worth a completely separate thread), but that's how it is. GW2 is not an exception.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    With Q4 2019 being the worst quarter and Q1 2020 being the 2nd worst. So it was there at the end of 2019/start of 2020 that we saw a great decrease in revenue.

    Isn't that because it was the announcement for the IBS (30th of August, 2019, iirc) that finally made people realize that the earlier hints about expansion being cancelled are not just hints, but a reality? Is it accident that the revenue started to get better shortly after they announced that there will be an expansion after all?

    Of course, there were a few other things that undermined people's trust in the game around that time - MO leaving (and then MZ ninja leaving shortly after) certainly didn;t help either. Until expansion announcement a lot of people honestly didn't believe this game had any future beyond LS5, and talks about maintenance mode were a daily occurence. Which definitely wasn't helping revenue at all.

    Isn't the discussion about raids not about gaining new people during the decay. But to slow the decay down.
    As far as i know nobodies claiming that with raids no decay would happen, just that it would be slower.

    I think the point is that decay rate is irrelevant if raids were not worth the investment to create and maintain to begin with.

    That might depend more on the general population levels though. In that case raids might be worth after a new expac is released.

    Maybe ... but speculation isn't a good basis to justify re-establishing failed content. Do you think it's a good bet for Anet to anticipate the people that come back for EoD will have increased interested in raiding to the point they create new ones? Why would we think it would be any different than expansion 2? IIRC, raid development dropped significantly AFTER PoF ... so my bet says raiding interest based on general population increases isn't enough.

    This debate has been had multiple times. Raiding in this game is a niche ... and clearly that niche can't sustain the development of that kind of content. Raids in their format simply does not appeal to enough people. OP has some correct indirect insights ... game is for casuals ... but raids are not for them. But make no mistake, no amount of false claims and scapegoating the OP can do will change the data that tells Anet raids aren't worth the investment to create.

    But apparently their was enough attention just after Pof to create more raids. I'm not arguing that it isn't a niche activity. I'm arguing that right after an expac their might be enough people playing the game such that the niche is worth it for some time.
    To demonstrate by example presume that gw2 has 2500 people playing and 2 percent are raiding. That would be 50 people. Now imagine their needs to be 100 people to raid to make it word it, and an expac brings the population to 10000. then with a 2percent participation raid we would have 200, twice as much as would be worth it.

    Maybe ... that just goes back to my point ... Anet has whatever data they need to convince themselves raids aren't good in GW2. We don't. There is nothing to suggest for a short amount of time after a new expansion, it will be 'good' to make a new raid for Anet because the people that are coming back aren't doing it for a couple of new raids until Anet drops them again like they did after POF. Raids are just NOT sustainable content in this game ... if it was, we would STILL have them.

    Can you actually address my point or not? Because everything you said didn't address what i said.

    Can I address your speculation? With what? More speculation? OK ... I speculate you are wrong ... because we don't have raids anymore. Raids are not sustainable content in GW2. Anet shouldn't waste time developing unsustainable content.

    So you can't thats good to know. Some advice, what you could have said was
    a) not enough people will join the expac to reach the valuable treshold.
    b) Anet shouldn't invest in content if they can't constantly use it.
    c) their is no threshold where raids would be valuable.

    Now i can argue why i think these three things would be invalid, but then atleast we could have had a semiproductive discussion about it. :)

    Edit: And i didn't speculate. I merely pointed out that the statement that raids are not worth it atm doesn't have to me that raids are of the table, as their are circumstances that would generate enough interest in them to make them valuable.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement.

    Okay, so you are just not going to read, address or make any arguments and just repeat that narrative as usual, as if game development happens in a complete vacuum and companies somehow have all the data perfectly conveying the fundamental truth about player interest, which is why no game ever misses the mark or fails...

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement.

    Okay, so you are just not going to read, address or make any arguments and just repeat that narrative as usual, as if game development happens in a complete vacuum and companies somehow have all the data perfectly conveying the fundamental truth about player interest, which is why no game ever misses the mark or fails...

    You probably shouldn't engage with Obtena. I gave an explanation why releasing raids immediately after the expac might be worth it, but they just bounce to their talking points without actually addressing my point.

    Hold on you SPECULATED why releasing raids immediately after the expac might be worth it.

    If Anet needs something massive like an expansion to justify continued support and development of content like raids ... then raids are NOT a sustainable revenue-creating element for the game.

    It doesn't need to be sustainable for all the time, as general population shrinks all niche content take a hit. My point is that content development depends on what the general population is and content can be worth it in specific moments of a games existence.

    My point is that content development depends on ROI and part of that IS about sustainability of that content. So the reason you don't see more of them ... it's likely because over the lifetime of raids, it's not meeting it's ROI.

    I get your point ... MAYBE there is a big spike in raid activity when people come back to the game for EoD and that spike and associated revenue justify a new raid or two. Sure MAYBE. I doubt it's enough to justify betting on it. It's also worth noting that EVEN if raids are profitable, that doesn't justify them if Anet believes there are BETTER opportunities for them to create content that are more profitable than raids.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yukarishura.4790 said:
    unsustainable content, lmao, then the entire game, besides gem store and LW is unsastainable

    If the game itself wasn't sustainable, it wouldn't be here ... LIKE RAIDS.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement.

    Okay, so you are just not going to read, address or make any arguments and just repeat that narrative as usual, as if game development happens in a complete vacuum and companies somehow have all the data perfectly conveying the fundamental truth about player interest, which is why no game ever misses the mark or fails...

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement.

    Okay, so you are just not going to read, address or make any arguments and just repeat that narrative as usual, as if game development happens in a complete vacuum and companies somehow have all the data perfectly conveying the fundamental truth about player interest, which is why no game ever misses the mark or fails...

    You probably shouldn't engage with Obtena. I gave an explanation why releasing raids immediately after the expac might be worth it, but they just bounce to their talking points without actually addressing my point.

    Hold on you SPECULATED why releasing raids immediately after the expac might be worth it.

    If Anet needs something massive like an expansion to justify continued support and development of content like raids ... then raids are NOT a sustainable revenue-creating element for the game.

    It doesn't need to be sustainable for all the time, as general population shrinks all niche content take a hit. My point is that content development depends on what the general population is and content can be worth it in specific moments of a games existence.

    My point is that content development depends on ROI and part of that IS about sustainability of that content. So the reason you don't see more of them ... it's likely because over the lifetime of raids, it's not meeting it's ROI.

    I get your point ... MAYBE there is a big spike in raid activity when people come back to the game for EoD and that spike and associated revenue justify a new raid or two. Sure MAYBE. I doubt it's enough to justify betting on it.

    Okay then we sort of agree, i mean a spike will happen through sheer increase in playercount. Whether it is worth it monitarily, honestly i don't even think anet could figure that out with the data they have.

  • yukarishura.4790yukarishura.4790 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:
    unsustainable content, lmao, then the entire game, besides gem store and LW is unsastainable

    If the game itself wasn't sustainable, it wouldn't be here ... LIKE RAIDS.

    following your logic, the entire game is unsastainable, besides gem store and LW, and maybe fractals considering we got sunqua recent

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:
    unsustainable content, lmao, then the entire game, besides gem store and LW is unsastainable

    If the game itself wasn't sustainable, it wouldn't be here ... LIKE RAIDS.

    following your logic, the entire game is unsastainable, besides gem store and LW, and maybe fractals considering we got sunqua recent

    That makes no sense ... obviously the game sustains itself with the content that exists because the game exists.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • yukarishura.4790yukarishura.4790 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:
    unsustainable content, lmao, then the entire game, besides gem store and LW is unsastainable

    If the game itself wasn't sustainable, it wouldn't be here ... LIKE RAIDS.

    following your logic, the entire game is unsastainable, besides gem store and LW, and maybe fractals considering we got sunqua recent

    That makes no sense ... obviously the game sustains itself with the content that exists because the game exists.

    finally you just stab yourself in your foot, PPL play RAIDS, and u CLAIM its not sustaining itself hahahah, guess what, raids exist too

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement. Will a new expansion make it worth it? What would make you think so?

    If this were true, the game would be in a far better state (or worse, but worse at this point would have meant shut down).

    Given it is not and assuming better financial performance might have been possible or is possible AND accounting for the dozens of mistakes in distribution of resources made so far by the studio, your basis for your argument is weak. Very weak to not say strait up incorrect.

    There isn't any weak argument here. If raids were sustainable content, we would likely have more raids. The fact we DON'T shows they aren't sustainable or there is a BETTER opportunity for Anet to create sustainable content.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:
    unsustainable content, lmao, then the entire game, besides gem store and LW is unsastainable

    If the game itself wasn't sustainable, it wouldn't be here ... LIKE RAIDS.

    following your logic, the entire game is unsastainable, besides gem store and LW, and maybe fractals considering we got sunqua recent

    That makes no sense ... obviously the game sustains itself with the content that exists because the game exists.

    hahahahah finally you just stab yourself in your foot, PPL play RAIDS, and u CLAIM its not sustaining itself hahahah

    There is no stab in the foot. People playing raids is not proof it's sustainable content. Clearly you don't understand what that means. Content that generates it's expected ROI is sustainable.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement. Will a new expansion make it worth it? What would make you think so?

    If this were true, the game would be in a far better state (or worse, but worse at this point would have meant shut down).

    Given it is not and assuming better financial performance might have been possible or is possible AND accounting for the dozens of mistakes in distribution of resources made so far by the studio, your basis for your argument is weak. Very weak to not say strait up incorrect.

    There isn't any weak argument here. If raids were sustainable content, we would likely have more raids. The fact we DON'T shows they aren't sustainable or there is a BETTER opportunity for Anet to create sustainable content.

    I already explained how this argument is flawed. The developers make mistakes and HAVE made sever mistakes in regards to this game. Some of which needed immediate correction and saw immediate correction. I am not going to debate facts in circles with someone who just wants to win a forum thread but is incapable of simple analysis.

    Many of these mistakes had immediate effects on the revenue this game made, followed by DIRECT communication and promises.

    Repeating something incorrect in the line of: the studio is always right, will not win you stars or merit here.

  • yukarishura.4790yukarishura.4790 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:
    unsustainable content, lmao, then the entire game, besides gem store and LW is unsastainable

    If the game itself wasn't sustainable, it wouldn't be here ... LIKE RAIDS.

    following your logic, the entire game is unsastainable, besides gem store and LW, and maybe fractals considering we got sunqua recent

    That makes no sense ... obviously the game sustains itself with the content that exists because the game exists.

    hahahahah finally you just stab yourself in your foot, PPL play RAIDS, and u CLAIM its not sustaining itself hahahah

    There is no stab in the foot. People playing raids is not proof it's sustainable content. Clearly you don't understand what that means. Content that generates it's expected ROI is sustainable.

    what is sustainable content in gw2 according to u?

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement. Will a new expansion make it worth it? What would make you think so?

    If this were true, the game would be in a far better state (or worse, but worse at this point would have meant shut down).

    Given it is not and assuming better financial performance might have been possible or is possible AND accounting for the dozens of mistakes in distribution of resources made so far by the studio, your basis for your argument is weak. Very weak to not say strait up incorrect.

    There isn't any weak argument here. If raids were sustainable content, we would likely have more raids. The fact we DON'T shows they aren't sustainable or there is a BETTER opportunity for Anet to create sustainable content.

    I already explained how this argument is flawed. The developers make mistakes and HAVE made sever mistakes in regards to this game. Some of which needed immediate correction and saw immediate correction. I am not going to debate facts in circles with someone who just wants to win a forum thread but is incapable of simple analysis.

    So your counter to my point is 'people make mistakes' ... like somehow Anet miscalculated the revenues raids generated over the many years this content existed? Um .. OK.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:
    unsustainable content, lmao, then the entire game, besides gem store and LW is unsastainable

    If the game itself wasn't sustainable, it wouldn't be here ... LIKE RAIDS.

    following your logic, the entire game is unsastainable, besides gem store and LW, and maybe fractals considering we got sunqua recent

    That makes no sense ... obviously the game sustains itself with the content that exists because the game exists.

    hahahahah finally you just stab yourself in your foot, PPL play RAIDS, and u CLAIM its not sustaining itself hahahah

    There is no stab in the foot. People playing raids is not proof it's sustainable content. Clearly you don't understand what that means. Content that generates it's expected ROI is sustainable.

    what is sustainable content in gw2 according to u?

    I LITERALLY just explained to you in the post you quoted what sustainable content in GW2 means according to me.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement. Will a new expansion make it worth it? What would make you think so?

    If this were true, the game would be in a far better state (or worse, but worse at this point would have meant shut down).

    Given it is not and assuming better financial performance might have been possible or is possible AND accounting for the dozens of mistakes in distribution of resources made so far by the studio, your basis for your argument is weak. Very weak to not say strait up incorrect.

    There isn't any weak argument here. If raids were sustainable content, we would likely have more raids. The fact we DON'T shows they aren't sustainable or there is a BETTER opportunity for Anet to create sustainable content.

    I already explained how this argument is flawed. The developers make mistakes and HAVE made sever mistakes in regards to this game. Some of which needed immediate correction and saw immediate correction. I am not going to debate facts in circles with someone who just wants to win a forum thread but is incapable of simple analysis.

    So your counter to my point is 'people make mistakes' ... like somehow Anet miscalculated the revenues raids generated? Um .. OK.

    I am going to stop here. You are making a fool of yourself. Again. Feel free to reread what was written and actually address points made.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement. Will a new expansion make it worth it? What would make you think so?

    If this were true, the game would be in a far better state (or worse, but worse at this point would have meant shut down).

    Given it is not and assuming better financial performance might have been possible or is possible AND accounting for the dozens of mistakes in distribution of resources made so far by the studio, your basis for your argument is weak. Very weak to not say strait up incorrect.

    There isn't any weak argument here. If raids were sustainable content, we would likely have more raids. The fact we DON'T shows they aren't sustainable or there is a BETTER opportunity for Anet to create sustainable content.

    They were working on other games to move on to, while the neglected GW2 slid into revenue freefall, and won't be around that much longer unless some of those things, which helped sustain the game and ensure that it is in fact still around, are brought back. The current course (of the last ~2 years), obviously is not long term sustainable for ArenaNet.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • yukarishura.4790yukarishura.4790 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:
    unsustainable content, lmao, then the entire game, besides gem store and LW is unsastainable

    If the game itself wasn't sustainable, it wouldn't be here ... LIKE RAIDS.

    following your logic, the entire game is unsastainable, besides gem store and LW, and maybe fractals considering we got sunqua recent

    That makes no sense ... obviously the game sustains itself with the content that exists because the game exists.

    hahahahah finally you just stab yourself in your foot, PPL play RAIDS, and u CLAIM its not sustaining itself hahahah

    There is no stab in the foot. People playing raids is not proof it's sustainable content. Clearly you don't understand what that means. Content that generates it's expected ROI is sustainable.

    what is sustainable content in gw2 according to u?

    I LITERALLY just explained to you in the post you quoted what sustainable content in GW2 means according to me.

    you havent, because you said its content that exists and sustains itself, which applies to raids/fractals/wvw, so what is "sustainable"? gem store? and living world? going back to the argument that people should not even play this game if the only thing to do in guild wars is to log in once in a blue moon for stories and to buy shiny things

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement. Will a new expansion make it worth it? What would make you think so?

    If this were true, the game would be in a far better state (or worse, but worse at this point would have meant shut down).

    Given it is not and assuming better financial performance might have been possible or is possible AND accounting for the dozens of mistakes in distribution of resources made so far by the studio, your basis for your argument is weak. Very weak to not say strait up incorrect.

    There isn't any weak argument here. If raids were sustainable content, we would likely have more raids. The fact we DON'T shows they aren't sustainable or there is a BETTER opportunity for Anet to create sustainable content.

    They were working on other games to move on to, while the neglected GW2 slid into revenue freefall, and won't be around that much longer unless some of those things, which helped sustain the game and ensure that it is in fact still around, are brought back. The current course (of the last ~2 years), obviously is not long term sustainable.

    OK ... that doesn't change what I said ... if raids were sustainable content, we would still have raids so clearly there are better opportunites ... or it's NOT sustainable content. You believe raids were part of that 'sustainable business' formula for them? I mean, do you honestly think a business doesn't know what products and content DOESN'T create its revenues? OFC it does. If raids were top of that list, do you NOT think Anet would find a way to continue delivering raids? I mean ... they find a way to continue delivering LOTS of other things? Why do you think that is?

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:
    unsustainable content, lmao, then the entire game, besides gem store and LW is unsastainable

    If the game itself wasn't sustainable, it wouldn't be here ... LIKE RAIDS.

    following your logic, the entire game is unsastainable, besides gem store and LW, and maybe fractals considering we got sunqua recent

    That makes no sense ... obviously the game sustains itself with the content that exists because the game exists.

    hahahahah finally you just stab yourself in your foot, PPL play RAIDS, and u CLAIM its not sustaining itself hahahah

    There is no stab in the foot. People playing raids is not proof it's sustainable content. Clearly you don't understand what that means. Content that generates it's expected ROI is sustainable.

    what is sustainable content in gw2 according to u?

    I LITERALLY just explained to you in the post you quoted what sustainable content in GW2 means according to me.

    you havent,...

    No, I did. I can assure you the post I quoted is EXACTLY how I define what sustainable content in GW2 is according to me. Content that generates its expected ROI is sustainable.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • yukarishura.4790yukarishura.4790 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:
    unsustainable content, lmao, then the entire game, besides gem store and LW is unsastainable

    If the game itself wasn't sustainable, it wouldn't be here ... LIKE RAIDS.

    following your logic, the entire game is unsastainable, besides gem store and LW, and maybe fractals considering we got sunqua recent

    That makes no sense ... obviously the game sustains itself with the content that exists because the game exists.

    hahahahah finally you just stab yourself in your foot, PPL play RAIDS, and u CLAIM its not sustaining itself hahahah

    There is no stab in the foot. People playing raids is not proof it's sustainable content. Clearly you don't understand what that means. Content that generates it's expected ROI is sustainable.

    what is sustainable content in gw2 according to u?

    I LITERALLY just explained to you in the post you quoted what sustainable content in GW2 means according to me.

    you havent,...

    No, I did. I can assure you the post I quoted is EXACTLY how I define what sustainable content in GW2 is according to me. Content that generates its expected ROI is sustainable.

    GIVE EXAMPLES, what is so hard to get in my question, I never asked for a definition, I said what is sustainable in gw2? do you even play the game?

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:
    unsustainable content, lmao, then the entire game, besides gem store and LW is unsastainable

    If the game itself wasn't sustainable, it wouldn't be here ... LIKE RAIDS.

    following your logic, the entire game is unsastainable, besides gem store and LW, and maybe fractals considering we got sunqua recent

    That makes no sense ... obviously the game sustains itself with the content that exists because the game exists.

    hahahahah finally you just stab yourself in your foot, PPL play RAIDS, and u CLAIM its not sustaining itself hahahah

    There is no stab in the foot. People playing raids is not proof it's sustainable content. Clearly you don't understand what that means. Content that generates it's expected ROI is sustainable.

    what is sustainable content in gw2 according to u?

    I LITERALLY just explained to you in the post you quoted what sustainable content in GW2 means according to me.

    you havent,...

    No, I did. I can assure you the post I quoted is EXACTLY how I define what sustainable content in GW2 is according to me. Content that generates its expected ROI is sustainable.

    GIVE EXAMPLES, what is so hard to get in my question

    Give examples of what? Content that generates ROI? Probably all the content they continue to create in the game that they have created for a very long time; LS, new maps, new skins, storyline, map metas, etc ...

    I mean, think about this for a minute ... Anet SELLS an item ONLY in the GS that warps you to world boss events in CORE ... do you think they would do that if this ORIGINAL content wasn't sustaining their business? That's about as good an example of what I'm talking about as you can get.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement. Will a new expansion make it worth it? What would make you think so?

    If this were true, the game would be in a far better state (or worse, but worse at this point would have meant shut down).

    Given it is not and assuming better financial performance might have been possible or is possible AND accounting for the dozens of mistakes in distribution of resources made so far by the studio, your basis for your argument is weak. Very weak to not say strait up incorrect.

    There isn't any weak argument here. If raids were sustainable content, we would likely have more raids. The fact we DON'T shows they aren't sustainable or there is a BETTER opportunity for Anet to create sustainable content.

    They were working on other games to move on to, while the neglected GW2 slid into revenue freefall, and won't be around that much longer unless some of those things, which helped sustain the game and ensure that it is in fact still around, are brought back. The current course (of the last ~2 years), obviously is not long term sustainable.

    OK ... that doesn't change what I said ... if raids were sustainable content, we would still have raids. I mean, do you honestly think a business doesn't know what products and content DOESN'T create it's revenues? OFC it does.

    A video game, especially one as broad as an MMO isn't a supermarket where you know which products go off the shelves quickly and which gather dust.

    If thousands of players are really just there for Raids, Guild/Community events, Fractals etc., and just happen to play content like LW while waiting/hoping for those and would leave without that, (which many, many did, as the declining revenue shows) how does a company quantify what primarily contributed to their spending?

    I really don't understand what you think kind of magical analytic tools exist that can read players minds on what content they are engaged by and on what level, beyond hours spend - which by far does not tell the whole story.
    All revenue comes from the gemstore. Gemstore items obviously have insanely high ROI. That doesn't mean you can develop just gemstore items and call it a day, since that supposedly would sustain the game for years to come alone, according to your highly flawed ROI data only driven argument.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • yukarishura.4790yukarishura.4790 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:
    unsustainable content, lmao, then the entire game, besides gem store and LW is unsastainable

    If the game itself wasn't sustainable, it wouldn't be here ... LIKE RAIDS.

    following your logic, the entire game is unsastainable, besides gem store and LW, and maybe fractals considering we got sunqua recent

    That makes no sense ... obviously the game sustains itself with the content that exists because the game exists.

    hahahahah finally you just stab yourself in your foot, PPL play RAIDS, and u CLAIM its not sustaining itself hahahah

    There is no stab in the foot. People playing raids is not proof it's sustainable content. Clearly you don't understand what that means. Content that generates it's expected ROI is sustainable.

    what is sustainable content in gw2 according to u?

    I LITERALLY just explained to you in the post you quoted what sustainable content in GW2 means according to me.

    you havent,...

    No, I did. I can assure you the post I quoted is EXACTLY how I define what sustainable content in GW2 is according to me. Content that generates its expected ROI is sustainable.

    GIVE EXAMPLES, what is so hard to get in my question

    Give examples of what? Content that generates ROI? Probably all the content they continue to create in the game that they have created for a very long time; LS, new maps, new skins, storyline, map metas, etc ...

    I mean, think about this for a minute ... Anet SELLS an item ONLY in the GS that warps you to world boss events in CORE ... do you think they would do that if this ORIGINAL content wasn't sustaining their business? That's about as good an example of what I'm talking about as you can get.

    the world boss teleporter is practically for the core game, which btw, we never got any new world bosses in the core game, which kinda shows that your argument is once again failing, since you claim they do not develop raids because they do not get money...then why arent they developing some world bosses too, if they make money (who even buys that teleporter?)? besides drakkar which is expansion-limited and LS limited, world bosses are dead content.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement. Will a new expansion make it worth it? What would make you think so?

    If this were true, the game would be in a far better state (or worse, but worse at this point would have meant shut down).

    Given it is not and assuming better financial performance might have been possible or is possible AND accounting for the dozens of mistakes in distribution of resources made so far by the studio, your basis for your argument is weak. Very weak to not say strait up incorrect.

    There isn't any weak argument here. If raids were sustainable content, we would likely have more raids. The fact we DON'T shows they aren't sustainable or there is a BETTER opportunity for Anet to create sustainable content.

    They were working on other games to move on to, while the neglected GW2 slid into revenue freefall, and won't be around that much longer unless some of those things, which helped sustain the game and ensure that it is in fact still around, are brought back. The current course (of the last ~2 years), obviously is not long term sustainable.

    OK ... that doesn't change what I said ... if raids were sustainable content, we would still have raids. I mean, do you honestly think a business doesn't know what products and content DOESN'T create it's revenues? OFC it does.

    A video game, especially one as broad as an MMO isn't a supermarket where you know which products go off the shelves quickly and which gather dust.

    If thousands of players are really just there for Raids, Guild/Community events, Fractals etc., and just happen to play content like LW while waiting/hoping for those and would leave without that, (which many, many did, as the declining revenue shows) how does a company quantify what primarily contributed to their spending?

    I really don't understand what you think kind of magical analytic tools exist that can read players minds on what content they are engaged by and on what level, beyond hours spend - which by far does not tell the whole story.

    It's not magic ... what makes you think Anet can't measure where a player spends their time and how much they spend? And if they do that for every player, they can attribute revenue spent to game content played.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:
    unsustainable content, lmao, then the entire game, besides gem store and LW is unsastainable

    If the game itself wasn't sustainable, it wouldn't be here ... LIKE RAIDS.

    following your logic, the entire game is unsastainable, besides gem store and LW, and maybe fractals considering we got sunqua recent

    That makes no sense ... obviously the game sustains itself with the content that exists because the game exists.

    hahahahah finally you just stab yourself in your foot, PPL play RAIDS, and u CLAIM its not sustaining itself hahahah

    There is no stab in the foot. People playing raids is not proof it's sustainable content. Clearly you don't understand what that means. Content that generates it's expected ROI is sustainable.

    what is sustainable content in gw2 according to u?

    I LITERALLY just explained to you in the post you quoted what sustainable content in GW2 means according to me.

    you havent,...

    No, I did. I can assure you the post I quoted is EXACTLY how I define what sustainable content in GW2 is according to me. Content that generates its expected ROI is sustainable.

    GIVE EXAMPLES, what is so hard to get in my question

    Give examples of what? Content that generates ROI? Probably all the content they continue to create in the game that they have created for a very long time; LS, new maps, new skins, storyline, map metas, etc ...

    I mean, think about this for a minute ... Anet SELLS an item ONLY in the GS that warps you to world boss events in CORE ... do you think they would do that if this ORIGINAL content wasn't sustaining their business? That's about as good an example of what I'm talking about as you can get.

    the world boss teleporter is practically for the core game, which btw, we never got any new world bosses in the core game, which kinda shows that your argument is once again failing, since you claim they do not develop raids because they do not get money...then why arent they developing some world bosses too? besides drakkar which is expansion-limited and LS limited, world bosses are dead content.

    Actually no ... the fact that Anet SUPPORTS core content with a sellable items is evidence of my point that Anet knows where to invest their resources to create revenue in the game. See, even though Anet doesn't create more core bosses, they understand people still do this content and realize an opportunity to generate revenue from it ...

    now contrast that with raids ...

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • yukarishura.4790yukarishura.4790 Member ✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement. Will a new expansion make it worth it? What would make you think so?

    If this were true, the game would be in a far better state (or worse, but worse at this point would have meant shut down).

    Given it is not and assuming better financial performance might have been possible or is possible AND accounting for the dozens of mistakes in distribution of resources made so far by the studio, your basis for your argument is weak. Very weak to not say strait up incorrect.

    There isn't any weak argument here. If raids were sustainable content, we would likely have more raids. The fact we DON'T shows they aren't sustainable or there is a BETTER opportunity for Anet to create sustainable content.

    They were working on other games to move on to, while the neglected GW2 slid into revenue freefall, and won't be around that much longer unless some of those things, which helped sustain the game and ensure that it is in fact still around, are brought back. The current course (of the last ~2 years), obviously is not long term sustainable.

    OK ... that doesn't change what I said ... if raids were sustainable content, we would still have raids. I mean, do you honestly think a business doesn't know what products and content DOESN'T create it's revenues? OFC it does.

    A video game, especially one as broad as an MMO isn't a supermarket where you know which products go off the shelves quickly and which gather dust.

    If thousands of players are really just there for Raids, Guild/Community events, Fractals etc., and just happen to play content like LW while waiting/hoping for those and would leave without that, (which many, many did, as the declining revenue shows) how does a company quantify what primarily contributed to their spending?

    I really don't understand what you think kind of magical analytic tools exist that can read players minds on what content they are engaged by and on what level, beyond hours spend - which by far does not tell the whole story.
    All revenue comes from the gemstore. Gemstore items obviously have insanely high ROI. That doesn't mean you can develop just gemstore items and call it a day, since that supposedly would sustain the game for years to come alone, according to your highly flawed ROI data only driven argument.

    couldnt agree more, people who are long term engaged in the game are more likely to spend gems, therefore raids/wvw/fractals are the only long term content that people are doing, whilst waiting for the same kind of content, they just go along with boring failed stuff like the new DRMs NO ONE asked for

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement. Will a new expansion make it worth it? What would make you think so?

    If this were true, the game would be in a far better state (or worse, but worse at this point would have meant shut down).

    Given it is not and assuming better financial performance might have been possible or is possible AND accounting for the dozens of mistakes in distribution of resources made so far by the studio, your basis for your argument is weak. Very weak to not say strait up incorrect.

    There isn't any weak argument here. If raids were sustainable content, we would likely have more raids. The fact we DON'T shows they aren't sustainable or there is a BETTER opportunity for Anet to create sustainable content.

    They were working on other games to move on to, while the neglected GW2 slid into revenue freefall, and won't be around that much longer unless some of those things, which helped sustain the game and ensure that it is in fact still around, are brought back. The current course (of the last ~2 years), obviously is not long term sustainable.

    OK ... that doesn't change what I said ... if raids were sustainable content, we would still have raids. I mean, do you honestly think a business doesn't know what products and content DOESN'T create it's revenues? OFC it does.

    A video game, especially one as broad as an MMO isn't a supermarket where you know which products go off the shelves quickly and which gather dust.

    If thousands of players are really just there for Raids, Guild/Community events, Fractals etc., and just happen to play content like LW while waiting/hoping for those and would leave without that, (which many, many did, as the declining revenue shows) how does a company quantify what primarily contributed to their spending?

    I really don't understand what you think kind of magical analytic tools exist that can read players minds on what content they are engaged by and on what level, beyond hours spend - which by far does not tell the whole story.
    All revenue comes from the gemstore. Gemstore items obviously have insanely high ROI. That doesn't mean you can develop just gemstore items and call it a day, since that supposedly would sustain the game for years to come alone, according to your highly flawed ROI data only driven argument.

    couldnt agree more, people who are long term engaged in the game are more likely to spend gems, therefore raids/wvw/fractals are the only long term content that people are doing, whilst waiting for the same kind of content, they just go along with boring failed stuff like the new DRMs NO ONE asked for

    That's just self serving ... you have NO idea what portion of the community are doing the various content in the game to claim any one of those content elements is better for revenues over any other.

    On the other hand, it's pretty obvious based on the content Anet continues to develop what does.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    It's not about player interest ... it's about revenue.

    Revenue comes from the gem store, not from content, at least that's what happens before we include expansions. Content itself doesn't bring revenue directly to the game. The only "question" is if player investment/engagement also drives revenue or not, I'd say that it does. And the lack of attention does reduce player engagement.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    It's not about player interest ... it's about revenue.

    Revenue comes from the gem store, not from content, at least that's what happens before we include expansions. Content itself doesn't bring revenue directly to the game. The only "question" is if player investment/engagement also drives revenue or not, I'd say that it does. And the lack of attention does reduce player engagement.

    True, that's LITERALLY where revenue comes from ... but there is no debate that what drives players to spend IS content based. Clearly, the amount of player investment/engagement in raids was lacking to justify continued development of raids, likely from a revenue perspective.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • yukarishura.4790yukarishura.4790 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    It's not about player interest ... it's about revenue.

    Revenue comes from the gem store, not from content, at least that's what happens before we include expansions. Content itself doesn't bring revenue directly to the game. The only "question" is if player investment/engagement also drives revenue or not, I'd say that it does. And the lack of attention does reduce player engagement.

    yes, the whole argument of raids not bringing revenue is pointless...buying gems or buying the expansions is what gives them money, plus actually keeping the ppl engaged long term so that they WANT to even purchase things.., I think I am gonna wait before even considering buying EoD, if no raid will be announced

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    On the other hand, it's pretty obvious based on the content Anet continues to develop what does.

    Yes. It's also why they started with 3 Raid wings, then added 4 more. If their choice of content creation was based on revenue, then that means at least the initial Raids were doing fine in earning revenue, wouldn't they? Based on your own argument.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    On the other hand, it's pretty obvious based on the content Anet continues to develop what does.

    Yes. It's also why they started with 3 Raid wings, then added 4 more. If their choice of content creation was based on revenue, then that means at least the initial Raids were doing fine in earning revenue, wouldn't they? Based on your own argument.

    yeah that could be true. But we aren't rehashing what happened when they started to justify why they should come back now ... that wouldn't make any sense now would it?

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    It's not about player interest ... it's about revenue.

    Revenue comes from the gem store, not from content, at least that's what happens before we include expansions. Content itself doesn't bring revenue directly to the game. The only "question" is if player investment/engagement also drives revenue or not, I'd say that it does. And the lack of attention does reduce player engagement.

    True, that's LITERALLY where revenue comes from ... but there is no debate that what drives players to spend IS content based.

    There is a lot of debate there. You are saying content played plays a role if a player buys a raptor skin or outfit? That's simple non-sense, there is no correlation here

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    It's not about player interest ... it's about revenue.

    Revenue comes from the gem store, not from content, at least that's what happens before we include expansions. Content itself doesn't bring revenue directly to the game. The only "question" is if player investment/engagement also drives revenue or not, I'd say that it does. And the lack of attention does reduce player engagement.

    yes, the whole argument of raids not bringing revenue is pointless...buying gems or buying the expansions is what gives them money, plus actually keeping the ppl engaged long term so that they WANT to even purchase things..

    Actually it's not pointless because if you continued reading, you would see he acknowledges player engagement in content is what drives revenues.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • yukarishura.4790yukarishura.4790 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @yukarishura.4790 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    It's not about player interest ... it's about revenue.

    Revenue comes from the gem store, not from content, at least that's what happens before we include expansions. Content itself doesn't bring revenue directly to the game. The only "question" is if player investment/engagement also drives revenue or not, I'd say that it does. And the lack of attention does reduce player engagement.

    yes, the whole argument of raids not bringing revenue is pointless...buying gems or buying the expansions is what gives them money, plus actually keeping the ppl engaged long term so that they WANT to even purchase things..

    Actually it's not pointless because if you continued reading, you would see he acknowledges player engagement in content is what drives revenues.

    actually no, he/she clearly said : "There is a lot of debate there. You are saying content played plays a role if a player buys a raptor skin or outfit? That's simple non-sense, there is no correlation here"

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement. Will a new expansion make it worth it? What would make you think so?

    If this were true, the game would be in a far better state (or worse, but worse at this point would have meant shut down).

    Given it is not and assuming better financial performance might have been possible or is possible AND accounting for the dozens of mistakes in distribution of resources made so far by the studio, your basis for your argument is weak. Very weak to not say strait up incorrect.

    There isn't any weak argument here. If raids were sustainable content, we would likely have more raids. The fact we DON'T shows they aren't sustainable or there is a BETTER opportunity for Anet to create sustainable content.

    They were working on other games to move on to, while the neglected GW2 slid into revenue freefall, and won't be around that much longer unless some of those things, which helped sustain the game and ensure that it is in fact still around, are brought back. The current course (of the last ~2 years), obviously is not long term sustainable.

    OK ... that doesn't change what I said ... if raids were sustainable content, we would still have raids. I mean, do you honestly think a business doesn't know what products and content DOESN'T create it's revenues? OFC it does.

    A video game, especially one as broad as an MMO isn't a supermarket where you know which products go off the shelves quickly and which gather dust.

    If thousands of players are really just there for Raids, Guild/Community events, Fractals etc., and just happen to play content like LW while waiting/hoping for those and would leave without that, (which many, many did, as the declining revenue shows) how does a company quantify what primarily contributed to their spending?

    I really don't understand what you think kind of magical analytic tools exist that can read players minds on what content they are engaged by and on what level, beyond hours spend - which by far does not tell the whole story.

    It's not magic ... what makes you think Anet can't measure where a player spends their time and how much they spend? And if they do that for every player, they can attribute revenue spent to game content played.

    How? That's not how it works. Time spent does not necessarily equal engagement/spending.

    If you grind Silverwastes for 200 hours in order to craft a Legendary (and happen to buy some gemstore items along the way), what drove your engagement is the Legendary Crafting they developed, not the open world farm per se.

    If I quit Raids because of lack of content and all the communities I liked falling apart, but still play Living World releases while hoping/waiting for new endgame content, LW is not what drove my engagement.

    There is no way to measure that, and looking at the revenue, Anet clearly mis-calculated/managed.

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Give examples of what? Content that generates ROI? Probably all the content they continue to create in the game that they have created for a very long time; LS, new maps, new skins, storyline, map metas, etc ...

    If they are all that's needed to support the game, why is revenue in a record low since they are only focusing on exactly that?

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    It's not about player interest ... it's about revenue.

    Revenue comes from the gem store, not from content, at least that's what happens before we include expansions. Content itself doesn't bring revenue directly to the game. The only "question" is if player investment/engagement also drives revenue or not, I'd say that it does. And the lack of attention does reduce player engagement.

    True, that's LITERALLY where revenue comes from ... but there is no debate that what drives players to spend IS content based.

    There is a lot of debate there. You are saying content played plays a role if a player buys a raptor skin or outfit? That's simple non-sense, there is no correlation here

    Nope, I'm not saying that all. What makes a player play this game? It's the content. If there isn't content people want to play, it doesn't matter what's in the GS cause no one is going to buy it.

    There are LOTS of factors that determine if a player spends money on the game ... but we aren't talking about individual players. We are talking about segments of the population doing specific content how that segment's spend influences that content development.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • yukarishura.4790yukarishura.4790 Member ✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement. Will a new expansion make it worth it? What would make you think so?

    If this were true, the game would be in a far better state (or worse, but worse at this point would have meant shut down).

    Given it is not and assuming better financial performance might have been possible or is possible AND accounting for the dozens of mistakes in distribution of resources made so far by the studio, your basis for your argument is weak. Very weak to not say strait up incorrect.

    There isn't any weak argument here. If raids were sustainable content, we would likely have more raids. The fact we DON'T shows they aren't sustainable or there is a BETTER opportunity for Anet to create sustainable content.

    They were working on other games to move on to, while the neglected GW2 slid into revenue freefall, and won't be around that much longer unless some of those things, which helped sustain the game and ensure that it is in fact still around, are brought back. The current course (of the last ~2 years), obviously is not long term sustainable.

    OK ... that doesn't change what I said ... if raids were sustainable content, we would still have raids. I mean, do you honestly think a business doesn't know what products and content DOESN'T create it's revenues? OFC it does.

    A video game, especially one as broad as an MMO isn't a supermarket where you know which products go off the shelves quickly and which gather dust.

    If thousands of players are really just there for Raids, Guild/Community events, Fractals etc., and just happen to play content like LW while waiting/hoping for those and would leave without that, (which many, many did, as the declining revenue shows) how does a company quantify what primarily contributed to their spending?

    I really don't understand what you think kind of magical analytic tools exist that can read players minds on what content they are engaged by and on what level, beyond hours spend - which by far does not tell the whole story.

    It's not magic ... what makes you think Anet can't measure where a player spends their time and how much they spend? And if they do that for every player, they can attribute revenue spent to game content played.

    How? That's not how it works. Time spent does not necessarily equal engagement/spending.

    If you grind Silverwastes for 200 hours in order to craft a Legendary (and happen to buy some gemstore items along the way), what drove your engagement is the Legendary Crafting they developed, not the open world farm per se.

    If I quit Raids because of lack of content and all the communities I liked falling apart, but still play Living World releases while hoping/waiting for new endgame content, LW is not what drove my engagement.

    There is no way to measure that, and looking at the revenue, Anet clearly mis-calculated/managed.

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Give examples of what? Content that generates ROI? Probably all the content they continue to create in the game that they have created for a very long time; LS, new maps, new skins, storyline, map metas, etc ...

    If they are all that's needed to support the game, why is revenue in a record low since they are only focusing on exactly that?

    maybe also good to mention in order to get LEGENDARY ARMOR you need to RAID, so are you telling me that is not motivating for players to play raids @Obtena.7952

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2021

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

    Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

    Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

    How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

    A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

    And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?
    Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

    What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

    If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement. Will a new expansion make it worth it? What would make you think so?

    If this were true, the game would be in a far better state (or worse, but worse at this point would have meant shut down).

    Given it is not and assuming better financial performance might have been possible or is possible AND accounting for the dozens of mistakes in distribution of resources made so far by the studio, your basis for your argument is weak. Very weak to not say strait up incorrect.

    There isn't any weak argument here. If raids were sustainable content, we would likely have more raids. The fact we DON'T shows they aren't sustainable or there is a BETTER opportunity for Anet to create sustainable content.

    They were working on other games to move on to, while the neglected GW2 slid into revenue freefall, and won't be around that much longer unless some of those things, which helped sustain the game and ensure that it is in fact still around, are brought back. The current course (of the last ~2 years), obviously is not long term sustainable.

    OK ... that doesn't change what I said ... if raids were sustainable content, we would still have raids. I mean, do you honestly think a business doesn't know what products and content DOESN'T create it's revenues? OFC it does.

    A video game, especially one as broad as an MMO isn't a supermarket where you know which products go off the shelves quickly and which gather dust.

    If thousands of players are really just there for Raids, Guild/Community events, Fractals etc., and just happen to play content like LW while waiting/hoping for those and would leave without that, (which many, many did, as the declining revenue shows) how does a company quantify what primarily contributed to their spending?

    I really don't understand what you think kind of magical analytic tools exist that can read players minds on what content they are engaged by and on what level, beyond hours spend - which by far does not tell the whole story.

    It's not magic ... what makes you think Anet can't measure where a player spends their time and how much they spend? And if they do that for every player, they can attribute revenue spent to game content played.

    How? That's not how it works. Time spent does not necessarily equal engagement/spending.

    I never claimed that ... I'm simply telling you Anet can measure how much time a person spends doing 'things' in the game and how much they spend. That tells them what content is generating revenue which you said was 'magical' analytical tools.

    If they are all that's needed to support the game, why is revenue in a record low since they are only focusing on exactly that?

    Who's to say that's not enough revenue to sustain the game with the content that's being added?

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.