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Too long, too tough, too risky

medivh.4725medivh.4725 Member ✭✭

People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.
The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.
I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.
You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.
Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

<1

Comments

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 19, 2021

    I think that Shattered Observatory and Siren's Reef are harder, what makes Sunqua Peak especially bad is that its boss is just a health sponge just like the others, but in Suqnua you can only burn the boss very rarely even with breaking every single bar.

    She spends way too much time moving all around a very large arena. It was presumably to make it challenging, and to require bar breaking, but like I said even breaking the bars doesn't give you sufficient windows of oppertunity.

    Plays without teleports/shadowsteps/etc. are stuck doing piddly ranged damage for most of the fight.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 24 charas, 18k hours, 29k AP | ♀♥♀
    No need to be best, only good and kind.

  • medivh.4725medivh.4725 Member ✭✭
    edited March 19, 2021

    Shattered Observatory and Siren's Reef if you deploy the right tactics is less difficult. I enjoyed Sunqua less then other fracs probably due to how time consuming, the risk of failure to redo Spellcaster. She has too much roaming space and chasing her around is tiring if you are a melee player. There is also too many pauses and dialogs that prolongs this frac. My worse experience is with this spellcaster's fights, if I am not bugged out refighting her is quite time consuming. At this rate I am more likely going to sit out sunquas as I find the risk to reward too low. Both Sunqua frac 75 and 100 are equally tough to beat.
    Perhaps Anet should do a checkpoint on her according to the combat phrase she is in. Saves everyone alot of frustration I am sure. As well as shorten or allow skip on some unneccessary phrases.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 19, 2021

    @medivh.4725 said:
    People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.
    The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.
    I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.
    You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

    1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.
    Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

    Even on CM with the extra/double Phase the fight is generally <10-15 minutes with a decent group.
    You might want to consider Condi Builds for this fight if it takes that long, other than self-improvement and trying to look for better groups (also it's a heavy CC check).

    I do feel you on the non-CM unskippable roleplay and how long some of the downtimes are on normal modes and wish Anet would add an optional skip to that beyond just playing CM's for Rec's and those who can't or don't want to play at that level.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2021

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @medivh.4725 said:
    People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.
    The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.
    I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.
    You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

    1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.
    Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

    Even on CM with the extra/double Phase the fight is generally <10-15 minutes with a decent group.
    You might want to consider Condi Builds for this fight if it takes that long, other than self-improvement and trying to look for better groups (also it's a heavy CC check).

    I do feel you on the non-CM unskippable roleplay and how long some of the downtimes are on normal modes and wish Anet would add an optional skip to that beyond just playing CM's for Rec's and those who can't or don't want to play at that level.

    This has been a problem with all the new Fractals:

    • Excessive dialog, with excessive pauses before the next section (Twilight Oasis tends to be better than others here).
    • Excessively long puzzles (Deepstone, Shattered Observatory orbs, etc.).
    • Excessive boss health that is okay on CM but doesn't scale down good on T4-T3 and especially T1-T2.

    For example, if play Sunqua on T1, and then on T4, there's not much difference except the instabilities, which is where all the difficulty comes from. If the instabilities are easy ones then there's virtually no difference.

    Shattered Observatory and Siren's Reef have similar issues with scaling downwards, even on T1 they're too annoying.

    They're not bad if you have a full party with finely tuned builds, but if you don't they're absolutely terrible. Its like playing in glue. The devs can't seem to understand the difference between "challenging" and "help I'm falling asleep".

    I like Amala the best because its the least snooze-worthy fight out of all the newer encounters.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 24 charas, 18k hours, 29k AP | ♀♥♀
    No need to be best, only good and kind.

  • medivh.4725medivh.4725 Member ✭✭
    edited March 20, 2021

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @medivh.4725 said:
    People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.
    The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.
    I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.
    You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

    1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.
    Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

    Im not sure where to start. Why do you need 25min to reach the endboss? this shouldnt take more than 8-10min. 25min is the time it takes to reach that area solo.
    I hope you are vastly exaggerating with 18min per try. A cm group needs 4min for the fight and it has higher health there.
    This reads like everyone was doing 3k dps max when they could do 30k. I joined some t3 and t4s normals there for fun and the majority of the players used their 0 dps open world builds. The health of the boss is not too high, the builds are too bad. T4 is the highest level. Dont use open world builds in there.

    There are water waves, there are mechanic jumps, there are compulsory kills, and there are 2 bossfights prior to spellcaster. If you spend 5 mins on each it is not extragvagent at all. Bosss mechanics has a loading time that cannot be skipped. If you messed up any of the parts it should take longer. Nope 18 minutes not extravagent at all. When I do manage to kill spellcaster, it is easily 30 minutes spend for the Sunqua frac. She don't die easy and her mechanics obviously have their loading time.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @medivh.4725 said:
    There are water waves, there are mechanic jumps, there are compulsory kills, and there are 2 bossfights prior to spellcaster. If you spend 5 mins on each it is not extragvagent at all. Bosss mechanics has a loading time that cannot be skipped. If you messed up any of the parts it should take longer. Nope 18 minutes not extravagent at all. When I do manage to kill spellcaster, it is easily 30 minutes spend for the Sunqua frac. She don't die easy and her mechanics obviously have their loading time.

    Thats entirely on your end 8min-10min is the absolute max this fight should take even with off meta builds. 18min means your group does less than 1/4th of an average group with a healer.
    There is a 15min cm solo and like i wrote earlier the boss has much higher hp in cm. This means that your 5 player group somehow manages to do a lot less dmg than a single player without any support.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2021

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    This has been a problem with all the new Fractals:

    • Excessive dialog, with excessive pauses before the next section (Twilight Oasis tends to be better than others here).
    • Excessively long puzzles (Deepstone, Shattered Observatory orbs, etc.).
    • Excessive boss health that is okay on CM but doesn't scale down good on T4-T3 and especially T1-T2.

    It scales. Normal bosses have much lower health than cm and the low hp make arkk bug out frequently if you phase him too fast in t1

    For example, if play Sunqua on T1, and then on T4, there's not much difference except the instabilities, which is where all the difficulty comes from. If the instabilities are easy ones then there's virtually no difference.

    Shattered Observatory and Siren's Reef have similar issues with scaling downwards, even on T1 they're too annoying.

    Everything in t1 or t2 has next to 0 hp. The dialogue is super annoying though.

    They're not bad if you have a full party with finely tuned builds, but if you don't they're absolutely terrible. Its like playing in glue. The devs can't seem to understand the difference between "challenging" and "help I'm falling asleep".

    I sometimes pug lower tiers and all you need is a single good dps player with a good build. Condi firebrand can carry sirens reef like no other profession. The problem is that some players walk in with 0dmg open world builds and complain about hp sponges while veteran players kill or phase everything within seconds.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    This has been a problem with all the new Fractals:

    • Excessive dialog, with excessive pauses before the next section (Twilight Oasis tends to be better than others here).
    • Excessively long puzzles (Deepstone, Shattered Observatory orbs, etc.).
    • Excessive boss health that is okay on CM but doesn't scale down good on T4-T3 and especially T1-T2.

    It scales. Normal bosses have much lower health than cm and the low hp make arkk bug out frequently if you phase him too fast in t1

    Oof yea, don't remind me. When the game literally punishes you for doing "too much" damage so you just have to Autoattack to not break the phasing of the boss.
    Good times.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @medivh.4725 said:
    People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.
    The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.
    I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.
    You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

    1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.
    Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

    Im not sure where to start. Why do you need 25min to reach the endboss? this shouldnt take more than 8-10min. 25min is the time it takes to reach that area solo.
    I hope you are vastly exaggerating with 18min per try. A cm group needs 4min for the fight and it has higher health there.
    This reads like everyone was doing 3k dps max when they could do 30k. I joined some t3 and t4s normals there for fun and the majority of the players used their 0 dps open world builds. The health of the boss is not too high, the builds are too bad. T4 is the highest level. Dont use open world builds in there.

    Given fractals were supposed to be designed around having any build initially, I'd say you saying this indicates bad design. Sure, make the 30k dps sponge for the CM, but if people are doing it on normal, it should fall over a little easier IMO. They should really only be forcing meta in CMs and raids, for the sanity and sake of the community.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @medivh.4725 said:
    People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.
    The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.
    I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.
    You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

    1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.
    Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

    Im not sure where to start. Why do you need 25min to reach the endboss? this shouldnt take more than 8-10min. 25min is the time it takes to reach that area solo.
    I hope you are vastly exaggerating with 18min per try. A cm group needs 4min for the fight and it has higher health there.
    This reads like everyone was doing 3k dps max when they could do 30k. I joined some t3 and t4s normals there for fun and the majority of the players used their 0 dps open world builds. The health of the boss is not too high, the builds are too bad. T4 is the highest level. Dont use open world builds in there.

    Given fractals were supposed to be designed around having any build initially, I'd say you saying this indicates bad design. Sure, make the 30k dps sponge for the CM, but if people are doing it on normal, it should fall over a little easier IMO. They should really only be forcing meta in CMs and raids, for the sanity and sake of the community.

    Tbf, for this fight to take 18 minutes on normal T4 as the OP claims, all party members would have to do <2800 DPS each. Expecting more than that in T4 is hardly "pushing meta" (30-40k DPS, time to kill less than 3 minutes).
    Even Fractal CM's or Raids are far from requiring the most effective builds to beat.

    Non meta builds are one thing, bad builds another, and as I always like to remind players who are struggling, there are builds literally just auto attacking for 15-20k DPS you can go for, there really isn't any excuse to do much less than that, and that has nothing to do with elitism or pushing meta.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @medivh.4725 said:
    People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.
    The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.
    I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.
    You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

    1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.
    Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

    Im not sure where to start. Why do you need 25min to reach the endboss? this shouldnt take more than 8-10min. 25min is the time it takes to reach that area solo.
    I hope you are vastly exaggerating with 18min per try. A cm group needs 4min for the fight and it has higher health there.
    This reads like everyone was doing 3k dps max when they could do 30k. I joined some t3 and t4s normals there for fun and the majority of the players used their 0 dps open world builds. The health of the boss is not too high, the builds are too bad. T4 is the highest level. Dont use open world builds in there.

    Given fractals were supposed to be designed around having any build initially, I'd say you saying this indicates bad design. Sure, make the 30k dps sponge for the CM, but if people are doing it on normal, it should fall over a little easier IMO. They should really only be forcing meta in CMs and raids, for the sanity and sake of the community.

    This applies to t1 and t2. T4 is pve endgame and it is vastly easier than the cm. All builds still work and dont block progression since there is not a single hard dps check unless the boss bugs.
    But T4 should not be balanced for bad builds. Whats the point of lower tiers then? Not all fractals have a cm and T4 is supposed to be highest difficulty. You dont have to play meta. A meta team kills that boss in ~3min. Pug meta in 4min thats why i said you shouldnt take longer than 8-10min because that means you have like 1/3 of the dps of a normal hfb pug if you factor in the timegates. The 18min mentioned earlier would be way less GROUP dps than a SOLO renegade.
    Proof:

    ~15min for p1 which is the entire normal fight. It has also quite a lot more hp in cm.

  • Fuchslein.8639Fuchslein.8639 Member ✭✭✭

    @medivh.4725 said:
    People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.
    The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.
    I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.
    You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

    1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.
    Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

    Not only sunqua. Since the Oasis fractal, I've noticed a higher and higher skip percentage in fractals, if you're not running with the meta groups.
    Which is really sad. I always thought fractals were meant as group content for everyone. But for many new fractals are now equal to raid bosses ...
    If that's Anet's answer to the fact that no new raids are coming for so long and they're now moving everything, well then good night...

    Have already written in another thread about fractals. For something that is a daily offer, the parts now take far too long, with too many mechanics and bling bling. The revisions of many fractals was so unnecessary and the new fractals are all beautiful but... meh.
    Then they can also finally make raids daily. I rather run the first 4 wings of the raid, than constantly this lightning storm in the fractals ...

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2021

    It's simple; I don't do CM anymore since Sunqua.
    The final boss is just a sponge, it's not that long but basic prerequisites are very specifics, fewer players than before ; wait long minutes for players "blablabla title, kp, kick ragequit etc" do the boss, may be a wipe or two, relog with other class, do the 2 others CMs, doT4 ...
    It can take 2 hours of your time to do fractals now. It took 1 hour before with less experiented players on CM.

    Sure I can do my own group, and wait an hour on the LFG for 99+98, do with guild members. I'm aware, but PUG is fun too.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2021

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @medivh.4725 said:
    People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.
    The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.
    I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.
    You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

    1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.
    Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

    Im not sure where to start. Why do you need 25min to reach the endboss? this shouldnt take more than 8-10min. 25min is the time it takes to reach that area solo.
    I hope you are vastly exaggerating with 18min per try. A cm group needs 4min for the fight and it has higher health there.
    This reads like everyone was doing 3k dps max when they could do 30k. I joined some t3 and t4s normals there for fun and the majority of the players used their 0 dps open world builds. The health of the boss is not too high, the builds are too bad. T4 is the highest level. Dont use open world builds in there.

    Given fractals were supposed to be designed around having any build initially, I'd say you saying this indicates bad design. Sure, make the 30k dps sponge for the CM, but if people are doing it on normal, it should fall over a little easier IMO. They should really only be forcing meta in CMs and raids, for the sanity and sake of the community.

    This applies to t1 and t2. T4 is pve endgame and it is vastly easier than the cm. All builds still work and dont block progression since there is not a single hard dps check unless the boss bugs.
    But T4 should not be balanced for bad builds. Whats the point of lower tiers then? Not all fractals have a cm and T4 is supposed to be highest difficulty. You dont have to play meta. A meta team kills that boss in ~3min. Pug meta in 4min thats why i said you shouldnt take longer than 8-10min because that means you have like 1/3 of the dps of a normal hfb pug if you factor in the timegates. The 18min mentioned earlier would be way less GROUP dps than a SOLO renegade.
    Proof:

    ~15min for p1 which is the entire normal fight. It has also quite a lot more hp in cm.

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @medivh.4725 said:
    People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.
    The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.
    I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.
    You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

    1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.
    Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

    Im not sure where to start. Why do you need 25min to reach the endboss? this shouldnt take more than 8-10min. 25min is the time it takes to reach that area solo.
    I hope you are vastly exaggerating with 18min per try. A cm group needs 4min for the fight and it has higher health there.
    This reads like everyone was doing 3k dps max when they could do 30k. I joined some t3 and t4s normals there for fun and the majority of the players used their 0 dps open world builds. The health of the boss is not too high, the builds are too bad. T4 is the highest level. Dont use open world builds in there.

    Given fractals were supposed to be designed around having any build initially, I'd say you saying this indicates bad design. Sure, make the 30k dps sponge for the CM, but if people are doing it on normal, it should fall over a little easier IMO. They should really only be forcing meta in CMs and raids, for the sanity and sake of the community.

    Tbf, for this fight to take 18 minutes on normal T4 as the OP claims, all party members would have to do <2800 DPS each. Expecting more than that in T4 is hardly "pushing meta" (30-40k DPS, time to kill less than 3 minutes).
    Even Fractal CM's or Raids are far from requiring the most effective builds to beat.

    Non meta builds are one thing, bad builds another, and as I always like to remind players who are struggling, there are builds literally just auto attacking for 15-20k DPS you can go for, there really isn't any excuse to do much less than that, and that has nothing to do with elitism or pushing meta.

    What both of you are completely missing is that fractals are a progression system with hard ties to your current gear set. it's incredibly expensive to change your infusions around and tedious. Not only that, but it's also a significant investment to get the extra infusion slots on rings + back. ALso, ascended gear ain't cheap either if you actually need the other set.

    The reason this matters is climbing out of t2-3 without being some form of balanced stats and/or support is very difficult if not impossible. I had intended to climb as both a weaver and heal tempest but when i realized how long it would take me to infuse gear for both sets, I picked the one with more successful runs and that was heal tempest. I've hard carried groups with other supports with massive heals, so it's still pretty fungible, but if people are intolerant to support or mixed builds, they're essentially going to cut players out from joining t4 mainstream (and cut them off from making a meta set). I'm still going to want to keep my heal tempest geared in case I end up in an all glass cannon group again. Also, it beats a bad heal brand as far as keeping people alive.

    And going back to OP, Sunqua fairly annoying beacuse 90% of the time, my t3 groups are people with mixed stats and/or supports, because that's what's gotten them that far.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 21, 2021

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @medivh.4725 said:
    People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.
    The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.
    I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.
    You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

    1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.
    Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

    Im not sure where to start. Why do you need 25min to reach the endboss? this shouldnt take more than 8-10min. 25min is the time it takes to reach that area solo.
    I hope you are vastly exaggerating with 18min per try. A cm group needs 4min for the fight and it has higher health there.
    This reads like everyone was doing 3k dps max when they could do 30k. I joined some t3 and t4s normals there for fun and the majority of the players used their 0 dps open world builds. The health of the boss is not too high, the builds are too bad. T4 is the highest level. Dont use open world builds in there.

    Given fractals were supposed to be designed around having any build initially, I'd say you saying this indicates bad design. Sure, make the 30k dps sponge for the CM, but if people are doing it on normal, it should fall over a little easier IMO. They should really only be forcing meta in CMs and raids, for the sanity and sake of the community.

    This applies to t1 and t2. T4 is pve endgame and it is vastly easier than the cm. All builds still work and dont block progression since there is not a single hard dps check unless the boss bugs.
    But T4 should not be balanced for bad builds. Whats the point of lower tiers then? Not all fractals have a cm and T4 is supposed to be highest difficulty. You dont have to play meta. A meta team kills that boss in ~3min. Pug meta in 4min thats why i said you shouldnt take longer than 8-10min because that means you have like 1/3 of the dps of a normal hfb pug if you factor in the timegates. The 18min mentioned earlier would be way less GROUP dps than a SOLO renegade.
    Proof:

    ~15min for p1 which is the entire normal fight. It has also quite a lot more hp in cm.

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @medivh.4725 said:
    People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.
    The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.
    I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.
    You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

    1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.
    Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

    Im not sure where to start. Why do you need 25min to reach the endboss? this shouldnt take more than 8-10min. 25min is the time it takes to reach that area solo.
    I hope you are vastly exaggerating with 18min per try. A cm group needs 4min for the fight and it has higher health there.
    This reads like everyone was doing 3k dps max when they could do 30k. I joined some t3 and t4s normals there for fun and the majority of the players used their 0 dps open world builds. The health of the boss is not too high, the builds are too bad. T4 is the highest level. Dont use open world builds in there.

    Given fractals were supposed to be designed around having any build initially, I'd say you saying this indicates bad design. Sure, make the 30k dps sponge for the CM, but if people are doing it on normal, it should fall over a little easier IMO. They should really only be forcing meta in CMs and raids, for the sanity and sake of the community.

    Tbf, for this fight to take 18 minutes on normal T4 as the OP claims, all party members would have to do <2800 DPS each. Expecting more than that in T4 is hardly "pushing meta" (30-40k DPS, time to kill less than 3 minutes).
    Even Fractal CM's or Raids are far from requiring the most effective builds to beat.

    Non meta builds are one thing, bad builds another, and as I always like to remind players who are struggling, there are builds literally just auto attacking for 15-20k DPS you can go for, there really isn't any excuse to do much less than that, and that has nothing to do with elitism or pushing meta.

    What both of you are completely missing is that fractals are a progression system with hard ties to your current gear set. it's incredibly expensive to change your infusions around and tedious. Not only that, but it's also a significant investment to get the extra infusion slots on rings + back. ALso, ascended gear ain't cheap either if you actually need the other set.

    Attuning rings costs 24s. Infusing them is free. Only backpack infusion is kinda expensive with 250 ectos.

    False: it costs a ton of fractal relics for the materials. They sure as heck haven't dropped enough to infuse both rings even where I am now at the upper part of T3. It's not just the attuning dude. I also mentioned swapping the infusions between gear and earning them. If you don't have enough high infusions for a second set, you're paying a lot of gold and tedium to move them around.

    Also if someone doesn't have a second set of ascended gear, which is entirely possible depending on how young their account is, you're asking them to plop 300-400g to get a new set. Ascended gear barely drops every now and then in T3. It's not like it's candy yet.

    The reason this matters is climbing out of t2-3 without being some form of balanced stats and/or support is very difficult if not impossible. I had intended to climb as both a weaver and heal tempest but when i realized how long it would take me to infuse gear for both sets, I picked the one with more successful runs and that was heal tempest. I've hard carried groups with other supports with massive heals, so it's still pretty fungible, but if people are intolerant to support or mixed builds, they're essentially going to cut players out from joining t4 mainstream (and cut them off from making a meta set). I'm still going to want to keep my heal tempest geared in case I end up in an all glass cannon group again. Also, it beats a bad heal brand as far as keeping people alive.

    Not sure what you mean as balanced stats but anything besides marauder/berserker/assassin has no place in a fractal power build. They're intolerant towards mixed builds because they are useless.

    I don't know what people are running, but I can tell that others in my t3 groups are normally not running DPS builds. They're only hitting 5k tops, usually and I use warhorn to give might, so even with that buff on a boss, they're not doing much. I'm assuming they're stacking toughness and/or healing. If the other gear types shouldn't be used, the game shouldn't allow them in the game mode, period (or auto-convert stats or something). Especially with how much investment goes to 1 set of fully ascended gear. Ironically enough, I think one of the few people I bump into in t3 every now and them copied my build I distinctly remember them running a DPS build before and I was running charts when I bumped into them again and I noticed they were playing heal tempest. I also out-DPS'd them XD. Fun fact, heal tempest can do more damage than HB. At least I seem to do more damage than them on charts (or all the ones I've bumped into are lousy).

    T2 is very easy to solo in full glass. T3 is where you have to start doing mechanics or dodge but it should be no problem to play berserker weaver there. Weaver is not a simple class but the condi version can use very tanky gear like dire or trailblazer if you dont want to look at your screen anymore. Would still do a lot more damage than everything i encountered in t3.
    Heal tempest needs warhorn for might and most of the ones i encounter use staff. Heal is not the main reason to bring a support. Believe it or not but all fractals are balanced for healerless groups.

    IN practice healerless groups had the highest failure rate in T2 when I made a hard decision to go all-in in 1 set. Maybe it's because me and others just weren't used to mechanics yet, I don't know. But I know supports and more sturdy builds fair better.

    The problem is that most players dont use reflects, blinds, cc, blocks or dodges and instead started to brute force everything with healing.

    And going back to OP, Sunqua fairly annoying beacuse 90% of the time, my t3 groups are people with mixed stats and/or supports, because that's what's gotten them that far.

    Because they were never forced to overthink their builds and role. Sunqua suddenly acts as a blocker. I also encountered the support issue in t3 and thats why people in t4 call their role when they join. 2-3 healers, hammer heralds, MMtank necros and rifle deadeyes. I've seen everything. But you can sort out the multiple healer thing before you start.
    Players shouldnt complain about inflated hp when they bring multiple healers. They shouldnt run 3k dps builds like mm necro in instanced content unless they are new and do t1.
    There wouldnt be a problem if all the people struggling would accept some help and read guides on discretize. Some players want to play their ego builds no matter how bad it performs and then it isnt the games fault anymore. I had arguments with rifle DEs in sirens reef for example.

    Honestly I feel like this is a toxic attitude. as I mentioned before, balance CMs and Raids around metas like that. This game was not conceived with the notion of the PVE meta as-is right now. And to be honest, I think it's egotistical to tell people how to play. There's more pieces of the GW2 meta than any other MMO and that's part of what makes crafting effective groups hard. I find that broken. I'm fine with there being some content that uses it, but I feel like if Anet wants to respect 90%+ of their player base, they should design the game around some of their original goals.

    You're also making the assumption that these players are making sub-optimal choices when in reality, they may have adjusted their builds to get through the fractal tiers like I have. Just finding enough people for a lower tier is hard enough (t3 is the pits). It's even worse trying to pack it with the meta as-is. Wiping over and over on a fragile build is not better than just clearing a little slower. To an experienced player the first part never happens. Though even so, I've seen glass cannon players go down easy too. Not all the time, but if they die early in the fight, their DPS is lower than someone with a sturdier build that lasts longer. That's food for thought. You're always going to be better than people learning. how you treat them will determine the fate of the community for fractals moving forward. just remember we already lost 1 end-game activity being supported (raids). Might want to make better decisions than the raiding community with respect to how you interact with players climbing the ladder. It's nice you're helping carry every now and then, but you want them to feel welcomed too.

  • medivh.4725medivh.4725 Member ✭✭
    edited March 21, 2021

    Spellcaster seem to have high hp redoing her is indeed taxing. She has just too much space to roam and her mechanics all have load times which adds into the battle time. In the middle potion of Sunqua Peak, there is a talking animal, can we have an option to skip that? It says the same thing everytime right? Strange but in my experience not all players are good with jump puzzles. I have seen with different groups not progressing due to the jump puzzles. Then one will have to get in for the rest to gg.
    If you are a melee player like I am then chasing the spellcaster around the very wide arena can be quite a chore. Yes I know Capt Crowe also moves alot but is in a very contained, and packed ship. Speaking of which I actually liked Siren Reef's design and enjoyed the concept.
    Shattered Lab is also another one with just too much running around, however the boss is very beatable.
    I think in a frac design where you have abit of jump puzzles, a difficult boss, non skippable dialogues, big roaming areas, the fractal experience is quite stretched. It almost feel like one can get two fractuals done under the same time.
    Currently I have enough AR to fill just one toon for T4, so I can't switch to the condi build or have a secondary ascended just yet. (Would be nice if I have those, currently I'm working on a healer toon to send into fracs so I can heal people)

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I don't know what people are running, but I can tell that others in my t3 groups are normally not running DPS builds. They're only hitting 5k tops, usually and I use warhorn to give might, so even with that buff on a boss, they're not doing much. I'm assuming they're stacking toughness and/or healing. If the other gear types shouldn't be used, the game shouldn't allow them in the game mode, period (or auto-convert stats or something). Especially with how much investment goes to 1 set of fully ascended gear. Ironically enough, I think one of the few people I bump into in t3 every now and them copied my build I distinctly remember them running a DPS build before and I was running charts when I bumped into them again and I noticed they were playing heal tempest. I also out-DPS'd them XD. Fun fact, heal tempest can do more damage than HB. At least I seem to do more damage than them on charts (or all the ones I've bumped into are lousy).

    This is the problem right there. Why does nobody believe the experienced players on this? Stat swapping ascended gear isnt that expensive unless you swap to trailblazer. Berserker/assassin is very cheap to swap to. Heal teampest is not good in fracs. Healing in general isnt the approach you should take in fractals when you are struggling. Better ask yourself what killed you and how you can avoid it.

    T2 is very easy to solo in full glass. T3 is where you have to start doing mechanics or dodge but it should be no problem to play berserker weaver there. Weaver is not a simple class but the condi version can use very tanky gear like dire or trailblazer if you dont want to look at your screen anymore. Would still do a lot more damage than everything i encountered in t3.
    Heal tempest needs warhorn for might and most of the ones i encounter use staff. Heal is not the main reason to bring a support. Believe it or not but all fractals are balanced for healerless groups.

    IN practice healerless groups had the highest failure rate in T2 when I made a hard decision to go all-in in 1 set. Maybe it's because me and others just weren't used to mechanics yet, I don't know. But I know supports and more sturdy builds fair better.

    If you need a healer to survive in t2 then you arent ready for t3 and not at all for t4. Its that simple. More sturdy builds are selfish. You wont die on them but what exactly are you bringing to the team? Somebody has to do damage. T2 is inredible easy. If you need a healer there you are doing something very wrong.

    The problem is that most players dont use reflects, blinds, cc, blocks or dodges and instead started to brute force everything with healing.

    And going back to OP, Sunqua fairly annoying beacuse 90% of the time, my t3 groups are people with mixed stats and/or supports, because that's what's gotten them that far.

    Because they were never forced to overthink their builds and role. Sunqua suddenly acts as a blocker. I also encountered the support issue in t3 and thats why people in t4 call their role when they join. 2-3 healers, hammer heralds, MMtank necros and rifle deadeyes. I've seen everything. But you can sort out the multiple healer thing before you start.
    Players shouldnt complain about inflated hp when they bring multiple healers. They shouldnt run 3k dps builds like mm necro in instanced content unless they are new and do t1.
    There wouldnt be a problem if all the people struggling would accept some help and read guides on discretize. Some players want to play their ego builds no matter how bad it performs and then it isnt the games fault anymore. I had arguments with rifle DEs in sirens reef for example.

    Honestly I feel like this is a toxic attitude. as I mentioned before, balance CMs and Raids around metas like that. This game was not conceived with the notion of the PVE meta as-is right now. And to be honest, I think it's egotistical to tell people how to play. There's more pieces of the GW2 meta than any other MMO and that's part of what makes crafting effective groups hard. I find that broken. I'm fine with there being some content that uses it, but I feel like if Anet wants to respect 90%+ of their player base, they should design the game around some of their original goals.

    You're also making the assumption that these players are making sub-optimal choices when in reality, they may have adjusted their builds to get through the fractal tiers like I have. Just finding enough people for a lower tier is hard enough (t3 is the pits). It's even worse trying to pack it with the meta as-is. Wiping over and over on a fragile build is not better than just clearing a little slower. To an experienced player the first part never happens. Though even so, I've seen glass cannon players go down easy too. Not all the time, but if they die early in the fight, their DPS is lower than someone with a sturdier build that lasts longer. That's food for thought. You're always going to be better than people learning. how you treat them will determine the fate of the community for fractals moving forward. just remember we already lost 1 end-game activity being supported (raids). Might want to make better decisions than the raiding community with respect to how you interact with players climbing the ladder. It's nice you're helping carry every now and then, but you want them to feel welcomed too.

    I dont make the assumption that they make sub-optimal choices. Im quite certain that they are doing that.
    Just as I find it funny to expect the content to get nerfed instead of adjusting your own build to it. In order to not play the meta you have to understand the meta first. Why is it toxic to suggest guides written by players who have completed the content a thousand times and figured out whats best? Most of the self brew builds are just not good.

    The problem is not that you clear it a little slower, the problem is that a full team manages to do far less damage than a single player without any support like i showed in the video.
    A bit defense like marauder is fine but 5k dps is almost hfb level.

  • Something has to be wrong with someone’s dps. I ran it first time this week blind when it was a daily, I was nervous on ele cause I used to main Mesmer but haven’t played for 3 years almost, cleared the fractal first try in 15 minutes. Not trying to brag, I just can’t believe it’s all that hard when that was my experience with a kind pug that let me learn with them.

  • Rodrick.1942Rodrick.1942 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 21, 2021

    @Riranor.6315 said:
    Something has to be wrong with someone’s dps. I ran it first time this week blind when it was a daily, I was nervous on ele cause I used to main Mesmer but haven’t played for 3 years almost, cleared the fractal first try in 15 minutes. Not trying to brag, I just can’t believe it’s all that hard when that was my experience with a kind pug that let me learn with them.

    I agreed with what you said, something must wrong in that group. With a healer (even not Hb, like auramancer ), it will not take longer than 30 min.

  • WindBlade.8749WindBlade.8749 Member ✭✭✭

    i don't know i do it everyday and it's probably the most easy cm for me .... don't really know people problems.... and we do it in 5m ......

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @WindBlade.8749 said:
    i don't know i do it everyday and it's probably the most easy cm for me .... don't really know people problems.... and we do it in 5m ......

    Because

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I don't know what people are running, but I can tell that others in my t3 groups are normally not running DPS builds. They're only hitting 5k tops, ...

    And learning to brute force every mechanic with heal and toughness starting in t2

    IN practice healerless groups had the highest failure rate in T2 when I made a hard decision to go all-in in 1 set. Maybe it's because me and others just weren't used to mechanics yet, I don't know. But I know supports and more sturdy builds fair better.

    In my opinion the cm is easier and faster than the other 2 aswell as long as you manage to bring cc. 5min is probably static time. The usual pug needs like 8min.

  • medivh.4725medivh.4725 Member ✭✭
    edited March 27, 2021

    My random groupings got problem clearing frac 75, 100 both are spellcaster's. I took a reference build pass by a team mate. Putting in more condi works then power melee strikes. Well I may not have so many AR or ascended to send in a condi fighter toon, but trinket change or weapon change is what I can afford atm. I am looking forward to the next spellcaster fight. But I do notice with this build it helps in underwater and the boss do generally die out sooner. So I guess you need take the efforts to adapt your fights to the various bosses to fight them better. Anyway I still think for Sunqua Peak while the spirit animal speaks, let that stone bridge generate so all 5 players need not just wait for the verbal story to end. At beginning and at the end players shouldn't need to wait for the story and should able to proceed on. Sunqua is already lengthy enough. I seen teams give up outside spellcaster's arena numerous times forgoing rewards. It is fine if is tough. Not fine if tough, long winded, (and buggy). Some players cannot even get pass the water waves without have to do a few attempts, sorrowful indeed ;-\ Could use more ggs to skip certain mechanics and shorten the frac

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    I think that Shattered Observatory and Siren's Reef are harder

    Well, a lot of people were avoiding those too. Each of those ended up causing a number of players to decrease their engagement with fractal content.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • medivh.4725medivh.4725 Member ✭✭
    edited March 27, 2021

    Got to fight spellcaster on 100. This what happened.
    We got her to phrases quicker. Good.
    (1st Attempt) But we fail to beat her at first try.
    (2nd Attempt) Whole group get struck by lighting and wiped.
    (3rd Attempt) Same thing happened and the chat is that this is bugged when you fail more then twice. Redoing will result in the same.
    Appears in the lighting phrase we got all orbs, spellcaster remains in water shield. All 5 were wiped by lightings....

    Outside the arena some left some talking about how bugged this thing is.
    But considering how much time is spend on this frac stage, only limited time is remaining to try other fracs.
    I am absolutely not looking forward to next spellcaster 100 fight. Enough for me.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @medivh.4725 said:
    Got to fight spellcaster on 100. This what happened.
    We got her to phrases quicker. Good.
    (1st Attempt) But we fail to beat her at first try.
    (2nd Attempt) Whole group get struck by lighting and wiped.
    (3rd Attempt) Same thing happened and the chat is that this is bugged when you fail more then twice. Redoing will result in the same.
    Appears in the lighting phrase we got all orbs, spellcaster remains in water shield. All 5 were wiped by lightings....

    Outside the arena some left some talking about how bugged this thing is.
    But considering how much time is spend on this frac stage, only limited time is remaining to try other fracs.
    I am absolutely not looking forward to next spellcaster 100 fight. Enough for me.

    Why arent you doing lower tiers until you can deal with the mechanics? The bug is annoying but should not be an issue in a t4 group.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2021

    @medivh.4725 said:
    Got to fight spellcaster on 100. This what happened.
    We got her to phrases quicker. Good.
    (1st Attempt) But we fail to beat her at first try.
    (2nd Attempt) Whole group get struck by lighting and wiped.
    (3rd Attempt) Same thing happened and the chat is that this is bugged when you fail more then twice. Redoing will result in the same.
    Appears in the lighting phrase we got all orbs, spellcaster remains in water shield. All 5 were wiped by lightings....

    Outside the arena some left some talking about how bugged this thing is.
    But considering how much time is spend on this frac stage, only limited time is remaining to try other fracs.
    I am absolutely not looking forward to next spellcaster 100 fight. Enough for me.

    HB and Heal Tempest can hard carry through damage really well. I know people here will barf, but my biggest easy mode moments with Sunqua has been with this magic combo + DPS. The heal tempest, if it goes earth & water spec can maintain 100% protection uptime and has mean raw heal throughput. The HB has really hard damage counters through Aegis & active mitigation + it's extra heals. It's important to break that bar every time you can. Heal tempest can also have mean CC breakbar, the earth shout applies 2 debuffs that are pretty strong bar drain, dagger 3 in water is a little breakbar drain, warhorn 4 on water attunement is strong CC. Dagger 3 (second phase/ability) is good CC in lighting, also the water shout is CC too, not as strong as the others and I like to spam it for the constant regen.

  • medivh.4725medivh.4725 Member ✭✭
    edited March 27, 2021

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Why arent you doing lower tiers until you can deal with the mechanics? The bug is annoying but should not be an issue in a t4 group.

    I feel we have decent chances beating her until that happens. After lighting orbs been grabbed isn't it time she fight us? Why is she in a protection mode and what more any of us has to do to get her out? There no more orbs to grab. We all have AR of 150 or there abouts. (How many AR do you reckon we need for t4 spellcaster?)
    My teammates suggest it is a bug, it doens't come from me. Personally I beat t4 spellcaster numerous occasions. Yes I do get bugged out during those fights. Something like I just descripted .
    Unless you meant to tell me the game design is to keep spellcaster encased water barrier and aoe the whole arena with lighting bolts, I don't see
    how players optimization around gona get us pass it? Also how is the aoes getting all 5 players? So either we all didn't know the mechanics again or there just isn't place to run to and avoid the wipeout.

    This is a MMO and while players can improve, drop a tier, skip certain boss. Bug is a thing for anet to fix and rectify.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @medivh.4725 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Why arent you doing lower tiers until you can deal with the mechanics? The bug is annoying but should not be an issue in a t4 group.

    I feel we have decent chances beating her until that happens. After lighting orbs been grabbed isn't it time she fight us? Why is she in a protection mode and what more any of us has to do to get her out? There no more orbs to grab. We all have AR of 150 or there abouts. (How many AR do you reckon we need for t4 spellcaster?)
    My teammates suggest it is a bug, it doens't come from me. Personally I beat t4 spellcaster numerous occasions. Yes I do get bugged out during those fights. Something like I just descripted .
    Unless you meant to tell me the game design is to keep spellcaster encased water barrier and aoe the whole arena with lighting bolts, I don't see
    how players optimization around gona get us pass it? Also how is the aoes getting all 5 players? So either we all didn't know the mechanics again or there just isn't place to run to and avoid the wipeout.

    This is a MMO and while players can improve, drop a tier, skip certain boss. Bug is a thing for anet to fix and rectify.

    It is a bug that triggers when you wipe in water phase. The way to complete the fractal in bugged state is to dps the boss to 66% before she goes up. Some dungeon bugs still exist so they might not fix this ever.
    Any experienced t4 group can do that. Just view it as a dps check. Would even argue that there should be some to act as a build blocker at the end of a tier like other mmos use them as gearcheck. Would reduce the "hp sponge" complaints. You even admitted requiring 18min which is a lot slower than a good solo player.

  • medivh.4725medivh.4725 Member ✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    It is a bug that triggers when you wipe in water phase. The way to complete the fractal in bugged state is to dps the boss to 66% before she goes up. Some dungeon bugs still exist so they might not fix this ever.
    Any experienced t4 group can do that. Just view it as a dps check. Would even argue that there should be some to act as a build blocker at the end of a tier like other mmos use them as gearcheck. Would reduce the "hp sponge" complaints. You even admitted requiring 18min which is a lot slower than a good solo player.

    Could be mistaken with multiple attempts on spellcaster. It is the design messing things up. No real problems with the other t4 fractals.

  • brogue.4926brogue.4926 Member ✭✭

    The difficulties this fractal has are:

    Too much movement required, with no movement ability, if we had a movement SAK it would be ok.
    CC bars are huge (but doable, if you commit hard to it)
    Hitboxes for laser show in the dark phase CM are unreliable (with frailty these 1 shot most meta builds, which is fine if they are well telegraphed)
    Boss mechanics change seemingly at random, phases merge and become unpredictable depending on group dps.

  • Neutra.6857Neutra.6857 Member ✭✭✭

    @brogue.4926 said:
    The difficulties this fractal has are:

    Too much movement required, with no movement ability, if we had a movement SAK it would be ok.
    CC bars are huge (but doable, if you commit hard to it)
    Hitboxes for laser show in the dark phase CM are unreliable (with frailty these 1 shot most meta builds, which is fine if they are well telegraphed)
    Boss mechanics change seemingly at random, phases merge and become unpredictable depending on group dps.

    Add that the laser show itself is a difficulty. It is physically painful for me to play the second part of the CM fight.

  • Mungo Zen.9364Mungo Zen.9364 Member ✭✭✭

    I kinda like the title of this thread to be the name of an achievement.

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    I remember the old days when playing al the tiers of fractals needed at most 1,5 hour with an average PUG. Less with an experienced PUG. Yes, the days when the teams rolled again and again the dices to obtain the Swamp as a first fractal from the 3 needed for one tier.

    Then, ANet introduced the current variant with the intention to "shorten the time needed for doing fractals ... and to change that tedious work into an enjoyable experience". Or something like that. You can search for Collin's statements.

    What is the actual result? Some teams can have more than 1 hour of "enjoyable experience" for only ONE fractal. BLEAH !

    ANet did not learn from the raid experiment? It seems not.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    I remember the old days when playing al the tiers of fractals needed at most 1,5 hour with an average PUG. Less with an experienced PUG. Yes, the days when the teams rolled again and again the dices to obtain the Swamp as a first fractal from the 3 needed for one tier.

    Then, ANet introduced the current variant with the intention to "shorten the time needed for doing fractals ... and to change that tedious work into an enjoyable experience". Or something like that. You can search for Collin's statements.

    What is the actual result? Some teams can have more than 1 hour of "enjoyable experience" for only ONE fractal. BLEAH !

    ANet did not learn from the raid experiment? It seems not.

    Then go down a tier or 2 until your at the level were it wont take more then an 1,5 hours to complete your dailies.
    if you take 90 minutes to do tier 1 with average pug I will eat my boots.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    Here is a tip that might help you. Make yourself a firebrand. Condi firebrand or a heal firebrand, doesn't matter, both are very good in all fractals and are beginner friendly. In no CM groups where people are inexperienced cfb is even stronger.
    Now when you see that sunqua peak is a daily and you wanna do it, don't join any lfg and make one yourself with a title like this: "T4s | 3 cfbs, hfb, alac" (well you will be one of the cfbs or the healer). If people ask to join as dps without cfb just deny them politely and wait till condi firebrands show up. You won't be needing a warrior either, it is pain to get a cfb that will play warrior after Sunqua, even in CM groups. This way the Sunqua peak along with some other fractals will become a piece of cake. The aegis spam and tomes from firebrands carry beginner groups pretty well in fractals.

  • Luthan.5236Luthan.5236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I only know this up to T2. Does not seem too much harder/longer than some of the other lengthier fractals - if you know what do do. Sure: Nightmare is a lot shorter and more fun. But the Shattered Observatory is also pretty long. Has a bit more fun mechanics in between but a boring end boss instead.

    For Sunqua the main problem is that the road to the end boss seems boring. The mini bosses are boring. The talking is annoying and delaying stuff (especially shortly before the last boss). And then there is the bug that might make the boss impossible to kill. According to some other thread it still exists. (From what I have heard if you die within the last 16 percent of the last boss. Luckily I haven't seen it recently cause there were no wipes at that stage when I played.)

    On top of that ArenaNet didn't put much thought into the voting system: After finishing the fractal everyone needs to confirm to go back to the lobby. When just quitting while in the middle of the fractal it is a voting where just a majority can force others out of the fractal (having to do it over again) ... instead of leaving the party letting the others gather different players to try again.

    Personally I like that boss and the mechanics a lot - lot more than bosses with tons of trash mobs. I know only up until T2 (level 50) - but te Ice Elemental in underground facility is much more annoying. Sunqua you almost can avoid all major damage (I mosty get damaged while trying to rez when waiting until it is safe might have completely killed a downed guy) and the movements are super easy to anticipate when you know that he is doing and what he might do next.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021

    This isn't only the intrinsic time of each fractals; but globally with the waiting time + the prerequisites most of people ask.
    Have a condi gear with 150ar for fractals, plus learn rotation; already you reduce the amount of players. Then 2 months afters "Ah, we don"t want SB/Ren/... anymore, go cFB with grieving/sinister/viper gear or kick" you grind your teeth. It's not complex, I'm not against optimisation; but it's binding, mostly for new players with few ascended items and fractal relics.
    Plus the numbers of players willing to spend more time in fractals, the numbers of players on GW2 which drops a little, etc ... There are many factors that make it get longer and harder to find a group and do CM fractals. It's even worst if you want to train, you can't really skip one if you want to find groups easily thereafter.

    There was a time I wanted more challenge mod, more challenging fractals.
    But in fact it's just annoying; not about the fractal itself, but about what surrounds it.
    I think a good solution would be, like the daily fractals; to set up one Daily CM wich includes 100~33% of the 3 CM rewards.

  • medivh.4725medivh.4725 Member ✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    We have enough dps on her, phrasing her quickly, but in her 1-15% health bar she wiped us. This happen to other groups and quite few times.

    Can the designer of this spellcaster fight explain the mechanics of the last part. Are you suppose to heal a downed team mate or let them die? Either none understood mechanics or design does not make sense. This NOT about build optimization, not about CM, people can barely get by frac 75. And rather, why is so many not getting the mechanics here. I understand the cyclone repells attack, so did these guys get themself killed by shooting at spellcaster? Get slowed and pulled into spellcaster's cyclone? Somebody mention overlapping aoe, so which is which? I just seen a completion video and no aoe thing mentioned? People are just not getting the base mechanics and is so frustrating. How do they get from T1 to T4 then?? Compiled with how long it needs to get to spellcaster arena. This frac is no longer new and taking bugs aside, I'd say it boils down to bad design and confusing mechanics.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @medivh.4725 said:
    Can the designer of this spellcaster fight step up explain the mechanics of the very last part. It wiped 3 party grouping instant. Are you suppose to heal them or let them die off? Different grouping, all instant kills towards the end when Spellcaster 1-15%. Is either none understood mechanics or your design does not make any sense. Until that is cleared, how or why it can 1 shot keep wiping gang, all at once. This is NOT about build optimization, rather why is so many not getting this mechanics. Did they just get themself killed by shooting at the spellcaster? Get pulled and sucked into spellcaster's cyclone? Somebody even mention about overlapping aoe? So which is which? I just seen a completion video and no aoe thing is mentioned. People just not getting the mechanics and is so frustrating. Compiled with how long it needs to get to the spellcaster arena. Bad design.

    I'm guessing you are referring to this "If not defeated, she will channel the waters again after aproximately 40 seconds the previous one (33% Phasing) ends. This attack is different to when she first phased, though, as she will still be vulnerable to damage, she will cast multiple radial AoEs and players will get slowly pulled in to the middle, which reflects projectiles, constantly deals damage and applies Agony."

    Either DPS the boss down within that window to skip the phase, or group up for heals, greens and sharing tidal bargains while avoiding use of projectiles.
    Not sure what the issue beyond that is.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • medivh.4725medivh.4725 Member ✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @Asum.4960 said:
    I'm guessing you are referring to this "If not defeated, she will channel the waters again after aproximately 40 seconds the previous one (33% Phasing) ends. This attack is different to when she first phased, though, as she will still be vulnerable to damage, she will cast multiple radial AoEs and players will get slowly pulled in to the middle, which reflects projectiles, constantly deals damage and applies Agony."

    Either DPS the boss down within that window to skip the phase, or group up for heals, greens and sharing tidal bargains while avoiding use of projectiles.

    Keep encountering this phrase. Is there indicator if Aoe is applied on a player? I noticed if a player tried to heal a downed player he or she quickly gets 1 shot wiped. The youtube videos don't explain that. Also is it true a overlapping Aoe is instant kill? During this part do we stack or not to stack? :'(

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @medivh.4725 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    I'm guessing you are referring to this "If not defeated, she will channel the waters again after aproximately 40 seconds the previous one (33% Phasing) ends. This attack is different to when she first phased, though, as she will still be vulnerable to damage, she will cast multiple radial AoEs and players will get slowly pulled in to the middle, which reflects projectiles, constantly deals damage and applies Agony."

    Either DPS the boss down within that window to skip the phase, or group up for heals, greens and sharing tidal bargains while avoiding use of projectiles.

    Keep encountering this phrase. Is there indicator if Aoe is applied on a player? I noticed if a player tried to heal a downed player he or she quickly gets 1 shot wiped. The youtube videos don't explain that. Also is it true a overlapping Aoe is instant kill? During this part do we stack or not to stack? :'(

    Sounds like the mechanic you are failing is Tidal Bargain, which needs to be shared with allies in order to prevent it reaching 10 Stacks on any one player, as other wise they take extreme amounts of damage (instant down) while also splashing damage to nearby allies, making ressing near impossible as well.

    The effect is indicated with a purple raindrop icon, along with it's stacks.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • And here i am just wanting to beat the CM without all the elitism

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:
    And here i am just wanting to beat the CM without all the elitism

    Make your own group. Without elitism sounds like offmeta everyone welcome.
    Tidal bargain does indeed need a better indicator on the player instead of buffbar. The problem is that you can completely ignore it in t2 while it will wipe you in t4. Dont reach 10 stacks or an aoe explosion triggern.

  • Sniper.5961Sniper.5961 Member ✭✭✭

    @medivh.4725 said:
    We have enough dps on her, phrasing her quickly, but in her 1-15% health bar she wiped us. This happen to other groups and quite few times.

    Can the designer of this spellcaster fight explain the mechanics of the last part. Are you suppose to heal a downed team mate or let them die? Either none understood mechanics or design does not make sense. This NOT about build optimization, not about CM, people can barely get by frac 75. And rather, why is so many not getting the mechanics here. I understand the cyclone repells attack, so did these guys get themself killed by shooting at spellcaster? Get slowed and pulled into spellcaster's cyclone? Somebody mention overlapping aoe, so which is which? I just seen a completion video and no aoe thing mentioned? People are just not getting the base mechanics and is so frustrating. How do they get from T1 to T4 then?? Compiled with how long it needs to get to spellcaster arena. This frac is no longer new and taking bugs aside, I'd say it boils down to bad design and confusing mechanics.

    If you have enough dps and actually phase her quickly, you skip the tornado phase because she is dead before she can use it.

    If the dps is too low and she enters tornado phase there are a few possible tactics to deal with it. If she has very low hp you pretty much ignore mechanics stay close to the tornado and kill her. Otherwise the most important Mechanic apart from not using projectiles is to prevent someone to get 10stacks of the blue teather debuff, by bodyblocking it, if you get 10 stacks the person will get a lot of damage/go down and everyone close to them aswell (thats probably what wiped your group). try to avoid standing in the aoes so you dont get agony/damage. If you want to do it safely go nearly to the wall and focus on surviving the phase and stop damaging her. If you are confident in the group, and have classes who can damage her from outside the tornado without using projektiles (fbs for example) stay close to the tornado and priorize mechanics over dps.

  • medivh.4725medivh.4725 Member ✭✭
    edited April 11, 2021

    Mechanics is worse then a raid boss. No point to phrase her quickly if people keeps dying to Tidal Bargain in the end.
    After some persistence where many people give up, we got the spellcaster at 100. She sends 3x Tidal Bargain waves at us. She fought so hard.. As if 1 Tidal Bargain wasn't enough. Probably wanna reduce Tidal Bargain time or affects if it's bottle necking the fight. We did get her this time, not bugged out. Man she's tough.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    did on t3 long time ago didn find too hard,, perhaps some hotfix messed up with his hp?

    -- Atlantean Sword --
    The secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, Conan. You must learn its discipline. For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts..." [Points to sword] "This you can trust."

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 11, 2021

    people avoid it because the whole fractal is simply very long... a big part of it is the unskippable dialogue

    Too tough? No. Its equally tough to sirens reef.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    people avoid it because the whole fractal is simply very long... a big part of it is the unskippable dialogue

    Too tough? No. Its equally tough to sirens reef.

    There's been a lot of complains about siren's reef as well, and it isn't exactly a popular fractal either. Just saying.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.