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  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2021

    @Math.5123 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    These claims about not able to land power damage, it's like waiting for a dodge or CC'ing sustain away is just too hard for anyone. It's a joke to heard people complain power guard not being a thing, it is fine.

    You're making it sound godly for landing Mighty Blow on plat players over and over, which it isn't. It's perfectly normal when you're reasonable with your expectations.

    If you're conditioned to expect 48k burning damage you might as well quit the PvP, people don't want it here.

    Even if I land every mighty blow, I'll use the skill twice per weapon swap (this is very obvious). I still won't have enough damage to kill anything with hammer.

    And I don't care about ranked. I made top 10 as zerk guard 6 something months ago when I still bothered. It won't see any tournament play.

    Nothing that's remotely challenging to use will see tournament play.

    And your first statement is wrong. There's a lot that can die to Hammer, it's not some rare planetary alignement and whether you call it from bad players, it doesn't matter as no players can always evade something that's below the best human reactions possible in a chase, the rest depends from utility available. I constantly duo with a Valkyrie guard and we're making it up there just fine, highest being 12 so far and I'm playing an assortment of Rev builds included Ventari after the nerf(I stream if you really don't believe it.). Not everything has to be suited for 1v1 in a team game, bad match ups will exist and that's just the end of it, a Valk Guard will easily finish off an unwary/escaping target (most notably thieves), that's just how broken Judge Intervention is and Symbol of Blade has various ways to kite people around certain maps, it's hilariously fun to watch.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.
    twitch.tv/shaoaz

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2021

    @Math.5123 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    These claims about not able to land power damage, it's like waiting for a dodge or CC'ing sustain away is just too hard for anyone. It's a joke to heard people complain power guard not being a thing, it is fine.

    You're making it sound godly for landing Mighty Blow on plat players over and over, which it isn't. It's perfectly normal when you're reasonable with your expectations.

    If you're conditioned to expect 48k burning damage you might as well quit the PvP, people don't want it here.

    Even if I land every mighty blow, I'll use the skill twice per weapon swap (this is very obvious). I still won't have enough damage to kill anything with hammer.

    And I don't care about ranked. I made top 10 as zerk guard 6 something months ago when I still bothered. It won't see any tournament play.

    Welcome to like most builds outside of the handful of cheese builds that were abusing skills that escaped the MegaBalance like Nades Holo+Scrapper.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Math.5123 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    These claims about not able to land power damage, it's like waiting for a dodge or CC'ing sustain away is just too hard for anyone. It's a joke to heard people complain power guard not being a thing, it is fine.

    You're making it sound godly for landing Mighty Blow on plat players over and over, which it isn't. It's perfectly normal when you're reasonable with your expectations.

    If you're conditioned to expect 48k burning damage you might as well quit the PvP, people don't want it here.

    Even if I land every mighty blow, I'll use the skill twice per weapon swap (this is very obvious). I still won't have enough damage to kill anything with hammer.

    And I don't care about ranked. I made top 10 as zerk guard 6 something months ago when I still bothered. It won't see any tournament play.

    Nothing that's remotely challenging to use will see tournament play.

    And your first statement is wrong. There's a lot that can die to Hammer, it's not some rare planetary alignement and whether you call it from bad players, it doesn't matter as no players can always evade something that's below the best human reactions possible in a chase, the rest depends from utility available. I constantly duo with a Valkyrie guard and we're making it up there just fine, highest being 12 so far and I'm playing an assortment of Rev builds included Ventari after the nerf(I stream if you really don't believe it.). Not everything has to be suited for 1v1 in a team game, bad match ups will exist and that's just the end of it, a Valk Guard will easily finish off an unwary/escaping target (most notably thieves), that's just how broken Judge Intervention is and Symbol of Blade has various ways to kite people around certain maps, it's hilariously fun to watch.

    A good Core Hammer Burst Guardian is actually the strongest possible counter vs. certain things like Deadeye or Sic Em One Wolf Pack Soulbeast. Pretty much, if you have to kite to survive "pretty much all glass builds" and DO NOT have stability to walk over Ring Of Warding, you automatically die if the Guard JI's at you with Ring Of Warding while a call target is on your head. Cause you know, you can't get out of it without anything other than stab.

    There was an old famous match actually, back when GW2 Esports was real, where Orange Logo beat the Abjured by bringing in a most unexpected Core Hammer Burst Guard build to abuse Ring Of Warding like this. Everyone thought Core Hammer Burst was bad btw.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Math.5123 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    These claims about not able to land power damage, it's like waiting for a dodge or CC'ing sustain away is just too hard for anyone. It's a joke to heard people complain power guard not being a thing, it is fine.

    You're making it sound godly for landing Mighty Blow on plat players over and over, which it isn't. It's perfectly normal when you're reasonable with your expectations.

    If you're conditioned to expect 48k burning damage you might as well quit the PvP, people don't want it here.

    Even if I land every mighty blow, I'll use the skill twice per weapon swap (this is very obvious). I still won't have enough damage to kill anything with hammer.

    And I don't care about ranked. I made top 10 as zerk guard 6 something months ago when I still bothered. It won't see any tournament play.

    Welcome to like most builds outside of the handful of cheese builds that were abusing skills that escaped the MegaBalance like Nades Holo+Scrapper.

    Mirage main spotted in Guardian thread.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Math.5123 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    These claims about not able to land power damage, it's like waiting for a dodge or CC'ing sustain away is just too hard for anyone. It's a joke to heard people complain power guard not being a thing, it is fine.

    You're making it sound godly for landing Mighty Blow on plat players over and over, which it isn't. It's perfectly normal when you're reasonable with your expectations.

    If you're conditioned to expect 48k burning damage you might as well quit the PvP, people don't want it here.

    Even if I land every mighty blow, I'll use the skill twice per weapon swap (this is very obvious). I still won't have enough damage to kill anything with hammer.

    And I don't care about ranked. I made top 10 as zerk guard 6 something months ago when I still bothered. It won't see any tournament play.

    Nothing that's remotely challenging to use will see tournament play.

    And your first statement is wrong. There's a lot that can die to Hammer, it's not some rare planetary alignement and whether you call it from bad players, it doesn't matter as no players can always evade something that's below the best human reactions possible in a chase, the rest depends from utility available. I constantly duo with a Valkyrie guard and we're making it up there just fine, highest being 12 so far and I'm playing an assortment of Rev builds included Ventari after the nerf(I stream if you really don't believe it.). Not everything has to be suited for 1v1 in a team game, bad match ups will exist and that's just the end of it, a Valk Guard will easily finish off an unwary/escaping target (most notably thieves), that's just how broken Judge Intervention is and Symbol of Blade has various ways to kite people around certain maps, it's hilariously fun to watch.

    A good Core Hammer Burst Guardian is actually the strongest possible counter vs. certain things like Deadeye or Sic Em One Wolf Pack Soulbeast. Pretty much, if you have to kite to survive "pretty much all glass builds" and DO NOT have stability to walk over Ring Of Warding, you automatically die if the Guard JI's at you with Ring Of Warding while a call target is on your head. Cause you know, you can't get out of it without anything other than stab.

    There was an old famous match actually, back when GW2 Esports was real, where Orange Logo beat the Abjured by bringing in a most unexpected Core Hammer Burst Guard build to abuse Ring Of Warding like this. Everyone thought Core Hammer Burst was bad btw.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Math.5123 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    These claims about not able to land power damage, it's like waiting for a dodge or CC'ing sustain away is just too hard for anyone. It's a joke to heard people complain power guard not being a thing, it is fine.

    You're making it sound godly for landing Mighty Blow on plat players over and over, which it isn't. It's perfectly normal when you're reasonable with your expectations.

    If you're conditioned to expect 48k burning damage you might as well quit the PvP, people don't want it here.

    Even if I land every mighty blow, I'll use the skill twice per weapon swap (this is very obvious). I still won't have enough damage to kill anything with hammer.

    And I don't care about ranked. I made top 10 as zerk guard 6 something months ago when I still bothered. It won't see any tournament play.

    Welcome to like most builds outside of the handful of cheese builds that were abusing skills that escaped the MegaBalance like Nades Holo+Scrapper.

    Mirage main spotted in Guardian thread.

    +1 never knew about that synergy with JI. Makes me want to play a core hammer guard now.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2021


    a little burns reduction in order..lol

    also, why wait to ask for power until now?

    please no buffs to guards that would create another fotm

    maybe llok at your competition in the roles that you dominate, and ask for their nerfs

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) nom nom nom🥔
    Fun Daredevil

  • Math.5123Math.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Math.5123 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    These claims about not able to land power damage, it's like waiting for a dodge or CC'ing sustain away is just too hard for anyone. It's a joke to heard people complain power guard not being a thing, it is fine.

    You're making it sound godly for landing Mighty Blow on plat players over and over, which it isn't. It's perfectly normal when you're reasonable with your expectations.

    If you're conditioned to expect 48k burning damage you might as well quit the PvP, people don't want it here.

    Even if I land every mighty blow, I'll use the skill twice per weapon swap (this is very obvious). I still won't have enough damage to kill anything with hammer.

    And I don't care about ranked. I made top 10 as zerk guard 6 something months ago when I still bothered. It won't see any tournament play.

    Nothing that's remotely challenging to use will see tournament play.

    And your first statement is wrong. There's a lot that can die to Hammer, it's not some rare planetary alignement and whether you call it from bad players, it doesn't matter as no players can always evade something that's below the best human reactions possible in a chase, the rest depends from utility available. I constantly duo with a Valkyrie guard and we're making it up there just fine, highest being 12 so far and I'm playing an assortment of Rev builds included Ventari after the nerf(I stream if you really don't believe it.). Not everything has to be suited for 1v1 in a team game, bad match ups will exist and that's just the end of it, a Valk Guard will easily finish off an unwary/escaping target (most notably thieves), that's just how broken Judge Intervention is and Symbol of Blade has various ways to kite people around certain maps, it's hilariously fun to watch.

    A good Core Hammer Burst Guardian is actually the strongest possible counter vs. certain things like Deadeye or Sic Em One Wolf Pack Soulbeast. Pretty much, if you have to kite to survive "pretty much all glass builds" and DO NOT have stability to walk over Ring Of Warding, you automatically die if the Guard JI's at you with Ring Of Warding while a call target is on your head. Cause you know, you can't get out of it without anything other than stab.

    There was an old famous match actually, back when GW2 Esports was real, where Orange Logo beat the Abjured by bringing in a most unexpected Core Hammer Burst Guard build to abuse Ring Of Warding like this. Everyone thought Core Hammer Burst was bad btw.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Math.5123 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    These claims about not able to land power damage, it's like waiting for a dodge or CC'ing sustain away is just too hard for anyone. It's a joke to heard people complain power guard not being a thing, it is fine.

    You're making it sound godly for landing Mighty Blow on plat players over and over, which it isn't. It's perfectly normal when you're reasonable with your expectations.

    If you're conditioned to expect 48k burning damage you might as well quit the PvP, people don't want it here.

    Even if I land every mighty blow, I'll use the skill twice per weapon swap (this is very obvious). I still won't have enough damage to kill anything with hammer.

    And I don't care about ranked. I made top 10 as zerk guard 6 something months ago when I still bothered. It won't see any tournament play.

    Welcome to like most builds outside of the handful of cheese builds that were abusing skills that escaped the MegaBalance like Nades Holo+Scrapper.

    Mirage main spotted in Guardian thread.

    The build has come a long way since that time.
    Notably, the only damaging ability on hammer got a 250% cd increase.

    For someone that has played the game as much as you can, I sure assumed you knew that all you need to get out of RoW is a single stunbreak. No stability needed. And if a thief actually gets caught with Shortbow on cd and without shadowstep or agility Signet, then I guess it deserves to die.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2021

    @Math.5123 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Math.5123 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    These claims about not able to land power damage, it's like waiting for a dodge or CC'ing sustain away is just too hard for anyone. It's a joke to heard people complain power guard not being a thing, it is fine.

    You're making it sound godly for landing Mighty Blow on plat players over and over, which it isn't. It's perfectly normal when you're reasonable with your expectations.

    If you're conditioned to expect 48k burning damage you might as well quit the PvP, people don't want it here.

    Even if I land every mighty blow, I'll use the skill twice per weapon swap (this is very obvious). I still won't have enough damage to kill anything with hammer.

    And I don't care about ranked. I made top 10 as zerk guard 6 something months ago when I still bothered. It won't see any tournament play.

    Nothing that's remotely challenging to use will see tournament play.

    And your first statement is wrong. There's a lot that can die to Hammer, it's not some rare planetary alignement and whether you call it from bad players, it doesn't matter as no players can always evade something that's below the best human reactions possible in a chase, the rest depends from utility available. I constantly duo with a Valkyrie guard and we're making it up there just fine, highest being 12 so far and I'm playing an assortment of Rev builds included Ventari after the nerf(I stream if you really don't believe it.). Not everything has to be suited for 1v1 in a team game, bad match ups will exist and that's just the end of it, a Valk Guard will easily finish off an unwary/escaping target (most notably thieves), that's just how broken Judge Intervention is and Symbol of Blade has various ways to kite people around certain maps, it's hilariously fun to watch.

    A good Core Hammer Burst Guardian is actually the strongest possible counter vs. certain things like Deadeye or Sic Em One Wolf Pack Soulbeast. Pretty much, if you have to kite to survive "pretty much all glass builds" and DO NOT have stability to walk over Ring Of Warding, you automatically die if the Guard JI's at you with Ring Of Warding while a call target is on your head. Cause you know, you can't get out of it without anything other than stab.

    There was an old famous match actually, back when GW2 Esports was real, where Orange Logo beat the Abjured by bringing in a most unexpected Core Hammer Burst Guard build to abuse Ring Of Warding like this. Everyone thought Core Hammer Burst was bad btw.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Math.5123 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    These claims about not able to land power damage, it's like waiting for a dodge or CC'ing sustain away is just too hard for anyone. It's a joke to heard people complain power guard not being a thing, it is fine.

    You're making it sound godly for landing Mighty Blow on plat players over and over, which it isn't. It's perfectly normal when you're reasonable with your expectations.

    If you're conditioned to expect 48k burning damage you might as well quit the PvP, people don't want it here.

    Even if I land every mighty blow, I'll use the skill twice per weapon swap (this is very obvious). I still won't have enough damage to kill anything with hammer.

    And I don't care about ranked. I made top 10 as zerk guard 6 something months ago when I still bothered. It won't see any tournament play.

    Welcome to like most builds outside of the handful of cheese builds that were abusing skills that escaped the MegaBalance like Nades Holo+Scrapper.

    Mirage main spotted in Guardian thread.

    The build has come a long way since that time.
    Notably, the only damaging ability on hammer got a 250% cd increase.

    For someone that has played the game as much as you can, I sure assumed you knew that all you need to get out of RoW is a single stunbreak. No stability needed. And if a thief actually gets caught with Shortbow on cd and without shadowstep or agility Signet, then I guess it deserves to die.

    Yes, it can work that way with most classes. But the way the main Ranger stun break works "Lightning Reflexes" is the stun break activates FIRST and then the evade makes you get stuck on the ROW again, even if you purposely walk backwards into the ROW before pushing LR. This is just one of the problems that LR has which funks up its purpose of being a stun break, right alongside of how the small damage proc makes you CC yourself in Shock Aura or Static Field, completely canceling the stun break, and how Taunt for whatever reason bugs up LR and won't allow it to cast until the full duration of the Taunt ends. The only other stun break that Sic Em Soulbeast will have is Quick Zephyr. This is primarily preserved for the burst and so it is rarely sitting on the utility bar waiting to be use as a stun break.

    All of the evasive glass cannon builds have this same type of problem as they possess few stun breaks and most of those skills are also mirrored in use as offensive utilities. There are few exceptions.

  • Math.5123Math.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Math.5123 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Math.5123 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    These claims about not able to land power damage, it's like waiting for a dodge or CC'ing sustain away is just too hard for anyone. It's a joke to heard people complain power guard not being a thing, it is fine.

    You're making it sound godly for landing Mighty Blow on plat players over and over, which it isn't. It's perfectly normal when you're reasonable with your expectations.

    If you're conditioned to expect 48k burning damage you might as well quit the PvP, people don't want it here.

    Even if I land every mighty blow, I'll use the skill twice per weapon swap (this is very obvious). I still won't have enough damage to kill anything with hammer.

    And I don't care about ranked. I made top 10 as zerk guard 6 something months ago when I still bothered. It won't see any tournament play.

    Nothing that's remotely challenging to use will see tournament play.

    And your first statement is wrong. There's a lot that can die to Hammer, it's not some rare planetary alignement and whether you call it from bad players, it doesn't matter as no players can always evade something that's below the best human reactions possible in a chase, the rest depends from utility available. I constantly duo with a Valkyrie guard and we're making it up there just fine, highest being 12 so far and I'm playing an assortment of Rev builds included Ventari after the nerf(I stream if you really don't believe it.). Not everything has to be suited for 1v1 in a team game, bad match ups will exist and that's just the end of it, a Valk Guard will easily finish off an unwary/escaping target (most notably thieves), that's just how broken Judge Intervention is and Symbol of Blade has various ways to kite people around certain maps, it's hilariously fun to watch.

    A good Core Hammer Burst Guardian is actually the strongest possible counter vs. certain things like Deadeye or Sic Em One Wolf Pack Soulbeast. Pretty much, if you have to kite to survive "pretty much all glass builds" and DO NOT have stability to walk over Ring Of Warding, you automatically die if the Guard JI's at you with Ring Of Warding while a call target is on your head. Cause you know, you can't get out of it without anything other than stab.

    There was an old famous match actually, back when GW2 Esports was real, where Orange Logo beat the Abjured by bringing in a most unexpected Core Hammer Burst Guard build to abuse Ring Of Warding like this. Everyone thought Core Hammer Burst was bad btw.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Math.5123 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    These claims about not able to land power damage, it's like waiting for a dodge or CC'ing sustain away is just too hard for anyone. It's a joke to heard people complain power guard not being a thing, it is fine.

    You're making it sound godly for landing Mighty Blow on plat players over and over, which it isn't. It's perfectly normal when you're reasonable with your expectations.

    If you're conditioned to expect 48k burning damage you might as well quit the PvP, people don't want it here.

    Even if I land every mighty blow, I'll use the skill twice per weapon swap (this is very obvious). I still won't have enough damage to kill anything with hammer.

    And I don't care about ranked. I made top 10 as zerk guard 6 something months ago when I still bothered. It won't see any tournament play.

    Welcome to like most builds outside of the handful of cheese builds that were abusing skills that escaped the MegaBalance like Nades Holo+Scrapper.

    Mirage main spotted in Guardian thread.

    The build has come a long way since that time.
    Notably, the only damaging ability on hammer got a 250% cd increase.

    For someone that has played the game as much as you can, I sure assumed you knew that all you need to get out of RoW is a single stunbreak. No stability needed. And if a thief actually gets caught with Shortbow on cd and without shadowstep or agility Signet, then I guess it deserves to die.

    Yes, it can work that way with most classes. But the way the main Ranger stun break works "Lightning Reflexes" is the stun break activates FIRST and then the evade makes you get stuck on the ROW again, even if you purposely walk backwards into the ROW before pushing LR. This is just one of the problems that LR has which funks up its purpose of being a stun break, right alongside of how the small damage proc makes you CC yourself in Shock Aura or Static Field, completely canceling the stun break, and how Taunt for whatever reason bugs up LR and won't allow it to cast until the full duration of the Taunt ends. The only other stun break that Sic Em Soulbeast will have is Quick Zephyr. This is primarily preserved for the burst and so it is rarely sitting on the utility bar waiting to be use as a stun break.

    All of the evasive glass cannon builds have this same type of problem as they possess few stun breaks and most of those skills are also mirrored in use as offensive utilities. There are few exceptions.

    Sic'em outtrades hammer guard any day of the week inside the ring. And if you jump dodge into LR you'll get out.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • snoow.1694snoow.1694 Member ✭✭✭

    Thing is you can claim Power Guard is okay all you want when in reality it would lose most duels as a roamer. It is honestly a joke to see what some are arguing, as if they haven‘t been to PvP since HoT released

    Balance Patch every 6 weeks kappa

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    guards are more than fine when the rest of the rosters considered.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @snoow.1694 said:

    @lotus.5672 said:
    power guardian is fine

    Saying the exact opposite without any explanation is no argument

    OK ... considering the way that Guardians do damage is the same as every other class in this game, power guardian is fine. is that better?

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Guardian still is good in PvP.
    Burn Dragonhunter still is strong.
    As the Burning condition itself wasn't nerf, most people who died to it before will still die to it after the patch.

  • snoow.1694snoow.1694 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2021

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @snoow.1694 said:

    @lotus.5672 said:
    power guardian is fine

    Saying the exact opposite without any explanation is no argument

    OK ... considering the way that Guardians do damage is the same as every other class in this game, power guardian is fine. is that better?

    No, because what you said is 100% wrong, since Guards have a useless symbol on every weapon set as well as a ton of support skills that don‘t do damage. Each weapon has roughly one burst skill of which only True Shot can be landed consistently as the lowest mobility class ingame.

    Turn it how you like it - fact is offensive power Guards lose to every single roamer in the current meta since Writ of Persistence and with it power damage on every weapon set was nerfed, which was the reason Guardians started to play degen burn builds in the first place, to make up for the hard damage loss

    Balance Patch every 6 weeks kappa

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @snoow.1694 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @snoow.1694 said:

    @lotus.5672 said:
    power guardian is fine

    Saying the exact opposite without any explanation is no argument

    OK ... considering the way that Guardians do damage is the same as every other class in this game, power guardian is fine. is that better?

    No, because what you said is 100% wrong, since Guards have a useless symbol on every weapon set as well as a ton of support skills that don‘t do damage. Each weapon has roughly one burst skill of which only True Shot can be landed consistently as the lowest mobility class ingame.

    Turn it how you like it - fact is offensive power Guards lose to every single roamer in the current meta since Writ of Persistence and with it power damage on every weapon set was nerfed, which was the reason Guardians started to play degen burn builds in the first place, to make up for the hard damage loss

    Right ... so what you are saying is ... game changes and the good players adapted to the change.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Just pointing out that the statement is not true. Guardians, core, DH, FB, they all definitely still deal damage, although it may no longer be a top 3 meta pick.

    That's the issue. Doing okayish damage with the worse healthpool in the game fails as a recipe for a playable class. No one cares if guard is a "top 3 meta pick," but compared to other specs with better damage and health, it's simply not worth it to play at all. If that's your definition of balanced....

    Also dude who's been playing guard since beta totally debunked your burst combo. You haven't proved that guard still has reliable damage, unless you define "reliable" as effective only on players who don't know what they're doing.

    "Face Palm"

    1. I have pointed out 3x now that I did not say anything about it being a top meta pick.
    2. "doing okayish damage" yeah welcome to the world elementalist as well as some other classes who are only ever allowed to play middle tier. They've had to suffer EXACTLY like this for years now, where they either run high burst damage like a core burst guard and are too squishy to survive anything, or run supporty builds with okayish damage. Guess what? The best ele enthusiasts have always still been able to make it work even when they were only middle tier. Get used to it. We all go through unfavorable patchings from time to time.
    3. Stop referencing that 11k health pool as if no one ever used options to bolster their health pool. <- This makes it look even MORE like you guys are sooooo used to the luxury of running Carrion at this point, that you've become desensitized to what Guardian health pools looked like before Carrion Burn was a thing.
    4. That guy didn't debunk anything. All he did was encourage the idea that "Guardian has no reliable damage" which simply is not true at all.
    5. I don't need to prove anything. I run like 3 or 4 ATs a day, always making it to final rounds while winning half of the time and I get plenty of demonstration from the best players in the game of what their main classes are capable of. Oh you want proof? Ok, click the link in my signature. Follow what's happening in the ATs when I'm streaming.

    Sounds like kitten from someone that ate nerfs and just wants everything else nerfed. 'Buff my class and nerf everything else.'

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2021

    Is burn DH really dead? I was testing the damage on it and it seems strong still. The damage is less extreme than it was, but it's certainly still there. Seems about on par with burn weaver's dps, but more AoE teamfight oriented.

    That, and the nerf of SoJ from 4 charges to 3 with a 5 second CD still leaves it a much stronger skill than traited arcane blast. Not saying it's op in comparison to arcane blast (they serve different purposes), but putting it's damage into perspective, the skill is hardly destroyed either.

    Surely we have to admit that 4 charges on a 16 second cooldown with a mere 1 seconds inbetween was a little bit silly? I would see guards spam this out blindly with little care of whether it hit or missed because the cooldown was so short and forgiving.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Is burn DH really dead? I was testing the damage on it and it seems strong still. The damage is less extreme than it was, but it's certainly still there. Seems about on par with burn weaver's dps, but more AoE teamfight oriented.

    That, and the nerf of SoJ from 4 charges to 3 with a 5 second CD still leaves it a much stronger skill than traited arcane blast. Not saying it's op in comparison to arcane blast (they serve different purposes), but putting it's damage into perspective, the skill is hardly destroyed either.

    Surely we have to admit that 4 charges on a 16 second cooldown with a mere 1 seconds inbetween was a little bit silly? I would see guards spam this out blindly with little care of whether it hit or missed because the cooldown was so short and forgiving.

    good maw will still 1shot entire enemy team in 1-2s, its just gonna make DH kinda wimpy in smaller scale fights.

  • Math.5123Math.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Is burn DH really dead? I was testing the damage on it and it seems strong still. The damage is less extreme than it was, but it's certainly still there. Seems about on par with burn weaver's dps, but more AoE teamfight oriented.

    That, and the nerf of SoJ from 4 charges to 3 with a 5 second CD still leaves it a much stronger skill than traited arcane blast. Not saying it's op in comparison to arcane blast (they serve different purposes), but putting it's damage into perspective, the skill is hardly destroyed either.

    Surely we have to admit that 4 charges on a 16 second cooldown with a mere 1 seconds inbetween was a little bit silly? I would see guards spam this out blindly with little care of whether it hit or missed because the cooldown was so short and forgiving.

    It was a 1 charge per 16 seconds with a 4 charge buffer. That's completely different.
    I'll leave wether the skill or the build is strong to you people to discuss, because I don't think so. The only fix needed was the Maw port bug.
    But I'm glad it got nerfed as I never enjoyed playing it and it farmed bad players way too hard.

    And that seems to be a common theme whenever guard has a "viable" dps build. Wether it was core burn back in 2015, dh in early HoT, 2018s hammer guard and to a lesser extent, burn dh.
    These builds all absolutely farmed ranked. But saw very little, to no play in actual high-tier games. (With the exception of burn dh)

    Why is this? Is it because good players can just outplay Guards? Is it because there are no good guardian players? Or is it because of outdated mechanics and an emphasis on tracking issues and issues landing your abilities vs moving targets?

    I wish I could share a clip I had up on my twitch (which got dmca'd). I had a long talk with Cmc and Arken about this issue (probably a 4 hour conversation) in particular.
    How gs5 misses point blank, how Scepter auto can be negated by strafing or simply out-ran with swiftness and a 400 unit headstart. How most guard projectiles are stuck to the ground, such as sword 3, Hammer 3, and torch 4. Where if anyone just stands on elevated terrain, you can't use these abilities.

    I agree that guard has a ton of damage still. Probably even too much, the issue is landing it.
    This makes it a nightmare to balance, because on one hand. It can obliterate entire teams if they aren't aware, while it will do absolutely nothing vs people with spacial awareness.

    I suggested a while back in the backroom cmc talks that we make Scepter auto always hit (think engi rifle auto) but reduce the damage by 66%-75%. The fact that this would be a buff to your overall damage output kind of proves how difficult it is to balance a skill that hits about 1 in 6 attacks. (Yes, I actually counted this over the span of 5 games)

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • @Math.5123 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Is burn DH really dead? I was testing the damage on it and it seems strong still. The damage is less extreme than it was, but it's certainly still there. Seems about on par with burn weaver's dps, but more AoE teamfight oriented.

    That, and the nerf of SoJ from 4 charges to 3 with a 5 second CD still leaves it a much stronger skill than traited arcane blast. Not saying it's op in comparison to arcane blast (they serve different purposes), but putting it's damage into perspective, the skill is hardly destroyed either.

    Surely we have to admit that 4 charges on a 16 second cooldown with a mere 1 seconds inbetween was a little bit silly? I would see guards spam this out blindly with little care of whether it hit or missed because the cooldown was so short and forgiving.

    It was a 1 charge per 16 seconds with a 4 charge buffer. That's completely different.
    I'll leave wether the skill or the build is strong to you people to discuss, because I don't think so. The only fix needed was the Maw port bug.
    But I'm glad it got nerfed as I never enjoyed playing it and it farmed bad players way too hard.

    And that seems to be a common theme whenever guard has a "viable" dps build. Wether it was core burn back in 2015, dh in early HoT, 2018s hammer guard and to a lesser extent, burn dh.
    These builds all absolutely farmed ranked. But saw very little, to no play in actual high-tier games. (With the exception of burn dh)

    Why is this? Is it because good players can just outplay Guards? Is it because there are no good guardian players? Or is it because of outdated mechanics and an emphasis on tracking issues and issues landing your abilities vs moving targets?

    I wish I could share a clip I had up on my twitch (which got dmca'd). I had a long talk with Cmc and Arken about this issue (probably a 4 hour conversation) in particular.
    How gs5 misses point blank, how Scepter auto can be negated by strafing or simply out-ran with swiftness and a 400 unit headstart. How most guard projectiles are stuck to the ground, such as sword 3, Hammer 3, and torch 4. Where if anyone just stands on elevated terrain, you can't use these abilities.

    I agree that guard has a ton of damage still. Probably even too much, the issue is landing it.
    This makes it a nightmare to balance, because on one hand. It can obliterate entire teams if they aren't aware, while it will do absolutely nothing vs people with spacial awareness.

    I suggested a while back in the backroom cmc talks that we make Scepter auto always hit (think engi rifle auto) but reduce the damage by 66%-75%. The fact that this would be a buff to your overall damage output kind of proves how difficult it is to balance a skill that hits about 1 in 6 attacks. (Yes, I actually counted this over the span of 5 games)

    Could you please share a decent current guard build if possible?

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @snoow.1694 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @snoow.1694 said:

    @lotus.5672 said:
    power guardian is fine

    Saying the exact opposite without any explanation is no argument

    Nah

    I've been seeing oldschool power burst core in ATs lately. They still work fine. It's not that power burst was ever bad, it's that burn builds were able to be tweaked in such a way that they had similar damage output to power bust but also 4x the sustain factor.

    Burn on Guards is fine. You guys just aren't used to dealing realistic in-line damage output. You're used to outputting this tremendously high pressure where 2 stacks of AoE burn that hits 5 targets can chunk 70% off everyone's life bar. It has made you desensitized to what balanced damage output is supposed to feel like.

    Actually no - when you have one skill that does burst damage per weapon swap and the rest is symbols no one will ever stay in, control effects and support skills you have no way of bursting someone down - this is the reason why Guards swapped to Burn DH right after symbols were nerfed into uselessness. We have GS 2 & 3, Sword 3, LB 3, Mace 3, Hammer 2, rest doesn‘t contribute whatsoever to bursting someone down.
    I like seeing Burn DH gone, but we have to admit that Power Guards are big jokes with 11K HP, bad tooltip numbers and extreme low mobility to land skills. Whoever loses a 1v1 to a Power Guard in this meta should consider to change the game mode

    Also no, in fact I haven‘t played burn DH a single time the last 2 seasons, so your „you guys are desensitized“ doesn‘t really make sense. I say power damage on Guard is garbage, because it actually is when 4/5 of your skills are support skills, control effects or avoidable by walking for a quarter second in case of symbols

    Nothing you mentioned at all is even a typical burst. I'm not talking about node hold symbol fbs, I'm talking about Power Core Burst Guards.

    You know, when a bunch of kitten stacked together that when executed correctly, lands a burst similar to a berserker/eagle sic em soulbeast with one wolf pack stated for damage:

    1. Select target in the team fight
    2. Prime Focus 5
    3. Hit target with Focus 4
    4. Land your Scepter 2 - If not using Scepter skip to 5
    5. Swap to GS and begin cast animation of GS 4, then use JI to target in team fight
    6. As animation on GS 4 finishes under the target, Focus 5 will explode dealing damage, right as you are using GS 2 spin to win

    ^ This build still works. People just weren't using it because FB was OP for awhile and then the OP swapped to Core burns & supports and DH. I didn't say Power Burst Core was OP, I said it still works fine in a balanced way. Although it isn't a big fat side node beast, it is a powerful team fighter and + while with supports.

    I'll say it again, Guardian players are complaining right now because they've been riding the OP top 3 meta train for a very very very long time at this point. Time to experience some good old fashioned middle tiered balance like the rest of us.

    As a guardian main, who predominately played core, what you just described does not remotely work. You ain’t fighting a training golem here. The only time this worked is back in the good days pre RI nerf. And core power guardian lost further survivability, and it had bad survivability to begin with.

    I could pull any class and show you a combo that does ridiculous damage. That does not make it remotely viable to execute in spvp.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Math.5123 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Is burn DH really dead? I was testing the damage on it and it seems strong still. The damage is less extreme than it was, but it's certainly still there. Seems about on par with burn weaver's dps, but more AoE teamfight oriented.

    That, and the nerf of SoJ from 4 charges to 3 with a 5 second CD still leaves it a much stronger skill than traited arcane blast. Not saying it's op in comparison to arcane blast (they serve different purposes), but putting it's damage into perspective, the skill is hardly destroyed either.

    Surely we have to admit that 4 charges on a 16 second cooldown with a mere 1 seconds inbetween was a little bit silly? I would see guards spam this out blindly with little care of whether it hit or missed because the cooldown was so short and forgiving.

    It was a 1 charge per 16 seconds with a 4 charge buffer. That's completely different.
    I'll leave wether the skill or the build is strong to you people to discuss, because I don't think so. The only fix needed was the Maw port bug.
    But I'm glad it got nerfed as I never enjoyed playing it and it farmed bad players way too hard.

    And that seems to be a common theme whenever guard has a "viable" dps build. Wether it was core burn back in 2015, dh in early HoT, 2018s hammer guard and to a lesser extent, burn dh.
    These builds all absolutely farmed ranked. But saw very little, to no play in actual high-tier games. (With the exception of burn dh)

    Why is this? Is it because good players can just outplay Guards? Is it because there are no good guardian players? Or is it because of outdated mechanics and an emphasis on tracking issues and issues landing your abilities vs moving targets?

    I wish I could share a clip I had up on my twitch (which got dmca'd). I had a long talk with Cmc and Arken about this issue (probably a 4 hour conversation) in particular.
    How gs5 misses point blank, how Scepter auto can be negated by strafing or simply out-ran with swiftness and a 400 unit headstart. How most guard projectiles are stuck to the ground, such as sword 3, Hammer 3, and torch 4. Where if anyone just stands on elevated terrain, you can't use these abilities.

    I agree that guard has a ton of damage still. Probably even too much, the issue is landing it.
    This makes it a nightmare to balance, because on one hand. It can obliterate entire teams if they aren't aware, while it will do absolutely nothing vs people with spacial awareness.

    I suggested a while back in the backroom cmc talks that we make Scepter auto always hit (think engi rifle auto) but reduce the damage by 66%-75%. The fact that this would be a buff to your overall damage output kind of proves how difficult it is to balance a skill that hits about 1 in 6 attacks. (Yes, I actually counted this over the span of 5 games)

    @Math.5123 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Is burn DH really dead? I was testing the damage on it and it seems strong still. The damage is less extreme than it was, but it's certainly still there. Seems about on par with burn weaver's dps, but more AoE teamfight oriented.

    That, and the nerf of SoJ from 4 charges to 3 with a 5 second CD still leaves it a much stronger skill than traited arcane blast. Not saying it's op in comparison to arcane blast (they serve different purposes), but putting it's damage into perspective, the skill is hardly destroyed either.

    Surely we have to admit that 4 charges on a 16 second cooldown with a mere 1 seconds inbetween was a little bit silly? I would see guards spam this out blindly with little care of whether it hit or missed because the cooldown was so short and forgiving.

    It was a 1 charge per 16 seconds with a 4 charge buffer. That's completely different.
    I'll leave wether the skill or the build is strong to you people to discuss, because I don't think so. The only fix needed was the Maw port bug.
    But I'm glad it got nerfed as I never enjoyed playing it and it farmed bad players way too hard.

    And that seems to be a common theme whenever guard has a "viable" dps build. Wether it was core burn back in 2015, dh in early HoT, 2018s hammer guard and to a lesser extent, burn dh.
    These builds all absolutely farmed ranked. But saw very little, to no play in actual high-tier games. (With the exception of burn dh)

    Why is this? Is it because good players can just outplay Guards? Is it because there are no good guardian players? Or is it because of outdated mechanics and an emphasis on tracking issues and issues landing your abilities vs moving targets?

    I wish I could share a clip I had up on my twitch (which got dmca'd). I had a long talk with Cmc and Arken about this issue (probably a 4 hour conversation) in particular.
    How gs5 misses point blank, how Scepter auto can be negated by strafing or simply out-ran with swiftness and a 400 unit headstart. How most guard projectiles are stuck to the ground, such as sword 3, Hammer 3, and torch 4. Where if anyone just stands on elevated terrain, you can't use these abilities.

    I agree that guard has a ton of damage still. Probably even too much, the issue is landing it.
    This makes it a nightmare to balance, because on one hand. It can obliterate entire teams if they aren't aware, while it will do absolutely nothing vs people with spacial awareness.

    I suggested a while back in the backroom cmc talks that we make Scepter auto always hit (think engi rifle auto) but reduce the damage by 66%-75%. The fact that this would be a buff to your overall damage output kind of proves how difficult it is to balance a skill that hits about 1 in 6 attacks. (Yes, I actually counted this over the span of 5 games)

    Sounds like Guardian's kit could use the Renegade shortbow treatment.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2021

    @Shao.7236 said:
    It's the same thing with many Warriors saying it's weak yet when played properly they can dominate fairly easily anything. However because it takes effort, must be underpowered?

    :EYES:

    Nah. The only thing that's weak right now is Core Elementalist

    Possibly true.
    And core engies that aren't Woodstock possibly.

    The "Balance" is a fantasy -- another mortal superstition.

  • Skyroar.2974Skyroar.2974 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Sounds like Guardian's kit could use the Renegade shortbow treatment.

    Too bad the team responsible for skill redesigns haven't done a patch over a year because they are too busy with the expansion.

  • @Math.5123 said:
    So let me get this right. You have a 4 second countdown, from outside line of sight (since you mentioned focus 4). You burn your 45s stunbreak to port mid gs4, wait for the aftercast to try and stay inside someone's hitbox for 3.75 seconds without swiftness with a skill that slows you down by 50%?

    You do realize you can perfectly cancel that aftercast?

  • Shogen.5071Shogen.5071 Member ✭✭

    @snoow.1694 said:
    The rise of Burn DH was based on the fact, that Guards weren‘t able to land power damage since the Writ of Persistence (symbol trait) nerf, which basically was a nerf on every single mainhand weapon for Guards and with burn damage as an option gone Guards have officially not a single way left oft doing damage after this patch. Even Zeal GS is a bad build, since you have to heavily invest in it and are pretty much a glass canon that doesn‘t land any damage through slow mobility.

    I agree with the Burn Guard nerf, but it would have been cool to see some sort of single player power damage buff in return

    I dunno about you but burn firebrand can still drop a kitten ton of burn on a player, Like its at the sacrifice of sustain but you can drop a good 3k per second burn on people with the correct rotation but as soon as your focused by multiple players your probably goneski

  • Math.5123Math.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @Math.5123 said:
    So let me get this right. You have a 4 second countdown, from outside line of sight (since you mentioned focus 4). You burn your 45s stunbreak to port mid gs4, wait for the aftercast to try and stay inside someone's hitbox for 3.75 seconds without swiftness with a skill that slows you down by 50%?

    You do realize you can perfectly cancel that aftercast?

    Yes, but it's still a good 8 seconds for all that damage to land.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Exile.8160Exile.8160 Member ✭✭✭

    From what I see in my plat games, most dps guard are the first and easiest target. They cant survive well, cant kite well cuz low mobility and cant deal enough dmg outside of a single burst that uses most of their skills.

    Guards need other ways of dps. Power was nerf, symbolds got nerf and burn got nerf... so what are they allow to do dmg with? Seems really unfair.