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Friendly Reminder

Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited March 23, 2021 in Professions

Dear Anet,
this is just a friendly reminder, that there's not only one gamemode in guildwars 2 that needs balancing.

PVE: just look at this: https://gw2raidleague.com/category/raidleague/
and what classes are played/overstacked and what classes have barely any presence. For example its extremely annoying to basically see only pink comps for all bosses.
I know that the best groups will always play the best dps class, but its a bit annoying to see only pink for months.
A meta shift every half a year regarding dps classes would be appreciated. Especially when there's no new on new raid wings or other instanced content. it really gets stale to play the same bosses over and over again, with the same comps.
In spvp you do changes to change what classes are played, and that basically every class sees some play in different seasons. - Why not do the same for pve?

WvW: i'm pretty sure there is a dev discord where balance issues are pointed out. For example: i heard from various sources that engi should be nerfed soon.

Last wvw balance changes were on 1st of december 2020.
Last pve balance changes happened on 7th of july 2020

i know you have a lot to do with the expansion coming up this year and i really appreciate your work.
but could you please throw a bone to the pve and wvw players?
you have the time to do two consecutive patches for spvp but theres absolutely no time for pve and wvw? i cant believe that.

Comments

  • Aigleborgne.2981Aigleborgne.2981 Member ✭✭✭

    Especially according the fact that there are a lot more people on pve than pvp and wvw combined.

    I can understand that competition is more important. However, pve patches weren't frequent enough to start with (medium size patchs every 3 months), so now we truly feel abandoned.

  • Salt Mode.3780Salt Mode.3780 Member ✭✭✭

    Lol at least for PvE you guys have LS new maps new currency content etc. Aside from desert boarderland there hasn't been updates on Eternal Battleground or the Alpine Maps. As well as the updates on WvW are miniscule and non existent. The reason why PvE has more people then PvP and WvW combined is because most have left either for PvE or quit the game.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Salt Mode.3780 said:
    Lol at least for PvE you guys have LS new maps new currency content etc. Aside from desert boarderland there hasn't been updates on Eternal Battleground or the Alpine Maps. As well as the updates on WvW are miniscule and non existent. The reason why PvE has more people then PvP and WvW combined is because most have left either for PvE or quit the game.

    But the problem is. Not every "pve player" cares about story. I absolutely dont care about living world patches. Yes I play them once, but I don't chase after all these achievements.
    Also there haven't been new maps with the last few releases. And I don't think, that doing this and that event 5k times, is good achievement design.

    I'm a player that has fun with creating new builds (especially WvW) and getting the new meta build for some classes, before snowcrows update their website (before there is vods on reddit).

    So my main content right now is absolutely dead.
    No meaningful patches for WvW that actually change things to create new roaming and gimmicky Zerg/guild builds.

    I'm in a state, well your name says it. Even though I would call it tilt mode.

    • sitting here, frustrated about the game, waiting for the new especs to go absolutely crazy with new builds

    But I believe that the xpac may be coming in August to October, so it's a long time of thirst.

  • Salt Mode.3780Salt Mode.3780 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2021

    What im saying is there are new pve content that is still being pumped out new maps etc regardless while WvW and SPvP had nothing at the times PvE did. This includes a new fractal even tho it is dated now.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Salt Mode.3780 said:
    What im saying is there are new pve content that is still being pumped out new maps etc regardless while WvW and SPvP had nothing at the times PvE did. This includes a new fractal even tho it is dated now.

    yes i did understand that. but it seems like you didnt understand, that this is about balancing

  • Mungo Zen.9364Mungo Zen.9364 Member ✭✭✭

    I am pretty confident that when the new Expansion launches there will be a massive overhaul for PvE professions. I am of the belief that they release the PvE balance patch before the actual expansion by a few weeks. I get that this is not 'right now' when we all want it but, I can forgive them not providing PvE updates knowing that they are doing a PvE overhaul AND adding new Elites later this year.

    The question that might be a better ask is, "As PvP keeps getting incremental updates to profession balance, will PvP get an overhaul with EoD release?"

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah, balancing the game based on the raid speedrunning premade squads is totally what this game needs.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mungo Zen.9364 said:
    I am pretty confident that when the new Expansion launches there will be a massive overhaul for PvE professions. I am of the belief that they release the PvE balance patch before the actual expansion by a few weeks. I get that this is not 'right now' when we all want it but, I can forgive them not providing PvE updates knowing that they are doing a PvE overhaul AND adding new Elites later this year.

    The question that might be a better ask is, "As PvP keeps getting incremental updates to profession balance, will PvP get an overhaul with EoD release?"

    I'm under the same assumption as you here. I think there will be an overhaul and with some of the previous changes there do seem to be clues as to the direction the elite specs will be heading. I don't keep an eye on every detail of every profession but I do keep an eye on every detail of the necromancer profession and its changes. Primarily Blood bank and Signet of Undeath and how the new(ish) life sacrifice mechanic seems to work with Barrier that it seems to somewhat suggest a Glassy life sacrifice spec is in the necromancer's future. Of course, that's just my speculation on minimal changes and I could very much be wrong.

    As for balance right now, its kinda a shame really. PvE does need something to really shake it up. A new Stat combination at the very least would be nice as that does occasionally open up new build possibilities and variants that weren't viable before.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Mungo Zen.9364 said:
    I am pretty confident that when the new Expansion launches there will be a massive overhaul for PvE professions. I am of the belief that they release the PvE balance patch before the actual expansion by a few weeks. I get that this is not 'right now' when we all want it but, I can forgive them not providing PvE updates knowing that they are doing a PvE overhaul AND adding new Elites later this year.

    The question that might be a better ask is, "As PvP keeps getting incremental updates to profession balance, will PvP get an overhaul with EoD release?"

    I'm under the same assumption as you here. I think there will be an overhaul and with some of the previous changes there do seem to be clues as to the direction the elite specs will be heading. I don't keep an eye on every detail of every profession but I do keep an eye on every detail of the necromancer profession and its changes. Primarily Blood bank and Signet of Undeath and how the new(ish) life sacrifice mechanic seems to work with Barrier that it seems to somewhat suggest a Glassy life sacrifice spec is in the necromancer's future. Of course, that's just my speculation on minimal changes and I could very much be wrong.

    As for balance right now, its kinda a shame really. PvE does need something to really shake it up. A new Stat combination at the very least would be nice as that does occasionally open up new build possibilities and variants that weren't viable before.

    Why do Blood Bank and Signet of Undeath make you think that they will be a glassy build?

    The changes to Signet of Vampirism and Blood Bank made me think that it is quite the opposite: a bruiser based on lifesteal mechanics.
    It would give Blood Bank some more synergy, since lifesteal over your total health would give you barrier to become even tankier. Signet of Vampirism could be a great healing skill for a bruiser who wants to be in the thick of the battle, etc.

    But I also keep an eye on my main profession when it comes to these changes. Stuff like the changes to Soothing Detonations and Overshield let me think that our next elite spec might finally be a primary support with condition damage on the side, like scourge and firebrand have been.
    The trait Soothing Detonations could suggest that the class mechanic will work by enhancing our toolbelt with more skills, which could let us pump out more healing for our allies.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2021

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Mungo Zen.9364 said:
    I am pretty confident that when the new Expansion launches there will be a massive overhaul for PvE professions. I am of the belief that they release the PvE balance patch before the actual expansion by a few weeks. I get that this is not 'right now' when we all want it but, I can forgive them not providing PvE updates knowing that they are doing a PvE overhaul AND adding new Elites later this year.

    The question that might be a better ask is, "As PvP keeps getting incremental updates to profession balance, will PvP get an overhaul with EoD release?"

    I'm under the same assumption as you here. I think there will be an overhaul

    As much as I think there will be some balance patch before eod in preperation for new especs, I doubt it will be any huge/groundbreaking "pve overhaul". Not sure why there suddenly need to be one, but lets see :D

  • Salt Mode.3780Salt Mode.3780 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Salt Mode.3780 said:
    What im saying is there are new pve content that is still being pumped out new maps etc regardless while WvW and SPvP had nothing at the times PvE did. This includes a new fractal even tho it is dated now.

    yes i did understand that. but it seems like you didnt understand, that this is about balancing

    and what im telling you is they work on pve more then they do on pvp and wvw

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Mungo Zen.9364 said:
    I am pretty confident that when the new Expansion launches there will be a massive overhaul for PvE professions. I am of the belief that they release the PvE balance patch before the actual expansion by a few weeks. I get that this is not 'right now' when we all want it but, I can forgive them not providing PvE updates knowing that they are doing a PvE overhaul AND adding new Elites later this year.

    The question that might be a better ask is, "As PvP keeps getting incremental updates to profession balance, will PvP get an overhaul with EoD release?"

    I'm under the same assumption as you here. I think there will be an overhaul and with some of the previous changes there do seem to be clues as to the direction the elite specs will be heading. I don't keep an eye on every detail of every profession but I do keep an eye on every detail of the necromancer profession and its changes. Primarily Blood bank and Signet of Undeath and how the new(ish) life sacrifice mechanic seems to work with Barrier that it seems to somewhat suggest a Glassy life sacrifice spec is in the necromancer's future. Of course, that's just my speculation on minimal changes and I could very much be wrong.

    As for balance right now, its kinda a shame really. PvE does need something to really shake it up. A new Stat combination at the very least would be nice as that does occasionally open up new build possibilities and variants that weren't viable before.

    Power/Expertise/Precision/Ferocity or Power/Expertise/Precision or Power/Expertise/Ferocity would all be very nice additions to PvP/WvW

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Mungo Zen.9364 said:
    I am pretty confident that when the new Expansion launches there will be a massive overhaul for PvE professions. I am of the belief that they release the PvE balance patch before the actual expansion by a few weeks. I get that this is not 'right now' when we all want it but, I can forgive them not providing PvE updates knowing that they are doing a PvE overhaul AND adding new Elites later this year.

    The question that might be a better ask is, "As PvP keeps getting incremental updates to profession balance, will PvP get an overhaul with EoD release?"

    I'm under the same assumption as you here. I think there will be an overhaul and with some of the previous changes there do seem to be clues as to the direction the elite specs will be heading. I don't keep an eye on every detail of every profession but I do keep an eye on every detail of the necromancer profession and its changes. Primarily Blood bank and Signet of Undeath and how the new(ish) life sacrifice mechanic seems to work with Barrier that it seems to somewhat suggest a Glassy life sacrifice spec is in the necromancer's future. Of course, that's just my speculation on minimal changes and I could very much be wrong.

    As for balance right now, its kinda a shame really. PvE does need something to really shake it up. A new Stat combination at the very least would be nice as that does occasionally open up new build possibilities and variants that weren't viable before.

    Why do Blood Bank and Signet of Undeath make you think that they will be a glassy build?

    The changes to Signet of Vampirism and Blood Bank made me think that it is quite the opposite: a bruiser based on lifesteal mechanics.
    It would give Blood Bank some more synergy, since lifesteal over your total health would give you barrier to become even tankier. Signet of Vampirism could be a great healing skill for a bruiser who wants to be in the thick of the battle, etc.

    But I also keep an eye on my main profession when it comes to these changes. Stuff like the changes to Soothing Detonations and Overshield let me think that our next elite spec might finally be a primary support with condition damage on the side, like scourge and firebrand have been.
    The trait Soothing Detonations could suggest that the class mechanic will work by enhancing our toolbelt with more skills, which could let us pump out more healing for our allies.

    There's an interesting interaction with Life sacrifice and Barrier. Barrier can be used to pay for the cost of Signet of Undeath. Signet of undeath's activation is a non-synergy with tanking and I believe its an Experiment for life sacrifice, which life stealing does play into as its often used to offset the extreme costs. Barrier in this case is being used in that way. Why would we need more bulkiness when the necromancer is far far too bulky already. It begins to make sense if arena net wants it to synergies with Scholar runes and if the necromancer elite spec is constantly sacrificing health in order to do that they can't benefit from it. Its possible the necromancer will gain a trait that benefits from health percentage like that as well. Similar to glasscannon on Engineer.

    The evidence looks to be giving them a means to stay alive with the health sacrifice, not to make a bulkly spec even bulkier. That interpretation you're describing almost sounds too me like that guy dumping water over himself while submerged in water. Its very very not needed. Especially how much it'd tread on Reaper's top line.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    There's an interesting interaction with Life sacrifice and Barrier. Barrier can be used to pay for the cost of Signet of Undeath. Signet of undeath's activation is a non-synergy with tanking and I believe its an Experiment for life sacrifice, which life stealing does play into as its often used to offset the extreme costs. Barrier in this case is being used in that way. Why would we need more bulkiness when the necromancer is far far too bulky already. It begins to make sense if arena net wants it to synergies with Scholar runes and if the necromancer elite spec is constantly sacrificing health in order to do that they can't benefit from it. Its possible the necromancer will gain a trait that benefits from health percentage like that as well. Similar to glasscannon on Engineer.

    The evidence looks to be giving them a means to stay alive with the health sacrifice, not to make a bulkly spec even bulkier. That interpretation you're describing almost sounds too me like that guy dumping water over himself while submerged in water. Its very very not needed. Especially how much it'd tread on Reaper's top line.

    I don't think that life sacrifice is "non-synergy with tanking". Bulwark gyro, a skill from a tank spec (scrapper), is also kinda sacrificing health. You are granting your allies a damage reduction, but you will suffer that damage yourself in return.
    Life sacrifice actually makes more sense on a bruiser that has alot of lifesteal, in my opinion, since such a spec could easily compensate the damage by healing back up again.

    But if it really should turn out to be a glasscannon, what do you expect this class to be when it comes to their role? DPS? I kinda doubt that necromancer will get a dps spec that deals more damage than reaper.... In my opinion, reaper should stay as necromancer's prime dps spec.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Salt Mode.3780 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Salt Mode.3780 said:
    What im saying is there are new pve content that is still being pumped out new maps etc regardless while WvW and SPvP had nothing at the times PvE did. This includes a new fractal even tho it is dated now.

    yes i did understand that. but it seems like you didnt understand, that this is about balancing

    and what im telling you is they work on pve more then they do on pvp and wvw

    Content wise maybe. Balancing, no.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    There's an interesting interaction with Life sacrifice and Barrier. Barrier can be used to pay for the cost of Signet of Undeath. Signet of undeath's activation is a non-synergy with tanking and I believe its an Experiment for life sacrifice, which life stealing does play into as its often used to offset the extreme costs. Barrier in this case is being used in that way. Why would we need more bulkiness when the necromancer is far far too bulky already. It begins to make sense if arena net wants it to synergies with Scholar runes and if the necromancer elite spec is constantly sacrificing health in order to do that they can't benefit from it. Its possible the necromancer will gain a trait that benefits from health percentage like that as well. Similar to glasscannon on Engineer.

    The evidence looks to be giving them a means to stay alive with the health sacrifice, not to make a bulkly spec even bulkier. That interpretation you're describing almost sounds too me like that guy dumping water over himself while submerged in water. Its very very not needed. Especially how much it'd tread on Reaper's top line.

    I don't think that life sacrifice is "non-synergy with tanking". Bulwark gyro, a skill from a tank spec (scrapper), is also kinda sacrificing health. You are granting your allies a damage reduction, but you will suffer that damage yourself in return.
    Life sacrifice actually makes more sense on a bruiser that has alot of lifesteal, in my opinion, since such a spec could easily compensate the damage by healing back up again.

    But if it really should turn out to be a glasscannon, what do you expect this class to be when it comes to their role? DPS? I kinda doubt that necromancer will get a dps spec that deals more damage than reaper.... In my opinion, reaper should stay as necromancer's prime dps spec.

    Reaper is already a bruiser. And we don't have a solid DPS spec. Reaper is a low damage cap spec because its so tanky. Scourge is low damage because... well.. uhh.. Because.. umm. Actually I'm not sure why its low damage, there's really no excuse for that one. We don't have a strong DPS. But if we look at the roles necromancer used to play in GW1 Offensive support or utility support was perhaps their most well known role after Minion master. Blood magic was used to fuel your allies offense. Rarely could necromancer put out a large chunk of damage on its own and when it could it was nearly or was suicide to do so.

    Some historic builds include Blood is Power necromancer or Battery for short. It was a necromancer build that relied on turbo charging ally's energy regen in order to keep the healer's, damage dealer's and controller's going sacrificing large chunks of their health.

    Next we have the Orders Necromancer. Originally using Order of Vampirism and Order of Pain(which no longer synergize with each other) this classic build would buff allies physical damage as well as provide them with life stealing further buffing them. They'd also grant adrenaline to allies allowing them to use their skills more frequently. GW2 doesn't have adrenaline, not in the way GW1 did. Its no longer a viable build but in its day it was potent.

    Another build we see is Suicide bomber. A life sacrifice build designed to capture points in Jade quarry. A necromancer would take assassin as their secondary and port into the middle of a point and begin using their sacrifice skills literally dropping themselves to 0 HP and causing enough damage that everyone on that point would be wiped. This build also got nerfed into nonexistence.

    The next build is the most recent due to the addition of new elite skills. Soul Taker builds now use either a scythe or daggers in order to trigger its extra damage with similar tools to the Suicide bomber build to cause massive damage to kill all the foes. Often you get under 20% health with this build and its very very tricky to use without killing yourself. its an extremely high damage build but not necromancer's highest damaging build.

    Now there's something all of these builds have in common. They are the most fragile builds in all of GW1. NONE of them can even come close to being a bruiser or a tank. It is impossible by the very nature of how they function. Maybe there's a farm build I don't know about, but I doubt it with the way life loss and sacrifice works in that game. Its just not viable to tank on those.

    But we can also look to other games too. Diablo III has a Blood spear and Blood Nova build and both those builds are notoriously frail. Both have a massive amount of health recovery but if they're struck they can loose momentum. I've played both although I haven't gotten the opportunity to play the Corpse explosion build which i'm sure also probably has a health sacrifice variant or is one itself, and how all of those builds work is they are glasscannon DPS builds. Necromancer does have a Tank build or two in D3, however they're not health sacrifice builds. They specifically avoid that sort of skill.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Reaper is already a bruiser. And we don't have a solid DPS spec. Reaper is a low damage cap spec because its so tanky. Scourge is low damage because... well.. uhh.. Because.. umm. Actually I'm not sure why its low damage, there's really no excuse for that one. We don't have a strong DPS. But if we look at the roles necromancer used to play in GW1 Offensive support or utility support was perhaps their most well known role after Minion master. Blood magic was used to fuel your allies offense. Rarely could necromancer put out a large chunk of damage on its own and when it could it was nearly or was suicide to do so.

    Yeah, we had that discussion before. I disagree with your classification of reaper as a bruiser.

    If reaper has stayed the same over the years like their initial design, I would have agreed with you that they are filling the bruiser playstyle for necromancer. But with the changes made to it from Anet over the years, I think it is intended as the DPS option instead (which, btw, makes way more sense thematically. If I imagine a reaper wielding a scythe, I would assume that they are supposed to be a damage machine, not some tanky bruiser).

    I mentioned it in previous discussions before: changes like you no longer taking reduced damage from chilled foes, but increasing your own damage on them instead. Or the many offensive boni you get from the reaper trait line like bonus critical strike chance, quickness, ferocity, etc.

    That reaper is dealing less damage than other dps elite specs does not mean that it is not one of them.
    They deal less damage because they have more natural tankiness than other classes, but that is a general design of the necromancer. They all have the shroud mechanic, which ultimately always is a tanky mechanic, even if interpreted differently (like how scourge replaced the actual shroud with barrier).

    But we can also look to other games too. Diablo III has a Blood spear and Blood Nova build and both those builds are notoriously frail. Both have a massive amount of health recovery but if they're struck they can loose momentum. I've played both although I haven't gotten the opportunity to play the Corpse explosion build which i'm sure also probably has a health sacrifice variant or is one itself, and how all of those builds work is they are glasscannon DPS builds. Necromancer does have a Tank build or two in D3, however they're not health sacrifice builds. They specifically avoid that sort of skill.

    This is one aspect I want to discuss as well. This game may have interpreted the blood thematic in this way, but the blood thematic of the necromancer in guild wars 2 is interpreted differently.

    Look at the skills and traits we have so far which are associated with blood.
    Dagger is the weapon which has the deepest thematical connection to this, yet it is probably the most bruiser-ish weapon on core necromancer. Yes, it bleeds yourself, but this is almost no harm at all, meanwhile it can heal for way more than it is dealing as bleeding damage to you.
    Blood magic as a trait line is the exact opposite of what you describe, it is about healing allies and yourself, while also providing other supportive features.

    If I think about blood magic in guild wars 2, then I think about a draintank. Not a fragile suicide bomber.
    I understand that you want to see these old themes from guild wars 1 return, but guild wars 2 is a different game which interpreted quite alot of stuff in a way different way than the first game did. Blood magic, in my opinion, is one of these.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Reaper is already a bruiser. And we don't have a solid DPS spec. Reaper is a low damage cap spec because its so tanky. Scourge is low damage because... well.. uhh.. Because.. umm. Actually I'm not sure why its low damage, there's really no excuse for that one. We don't have a strong DPS. But if we look at the roles necromancer used to play in GW1 Offensive support or utility support was perhaps their most well known role after Minion master. Blood magic was used to fuel your allies offense. Rarely could necromancer put out a large chunk of damage on its own and when it could it was nearly or was suicide to do so.

    Yeah, we had that discussion before. I disagree with your classification of reaper as a bruiser.

    If reaper has stayed the same over the years like their initial design, I would have agreed with you that they are filling the bruiser playstyle for necromancer. But with the changes made to it from Anet over the years, I think it is intended as the DPS option instead (which, btw, makes way more sense thematically. If I imagine a reaper wielding a scythe, I would assume that they are supposed to be a damage machine, not some tanky bruiser).

    I mentioned it in previous discussions before: changes like you no longer taking reduced damage from chilled foes, but increasing your own damage on them instead. Or the many offensive boni you get from the reaper trait line like bonus critical strike chance, quickness, ferocity, etc.

    That reaper is dealing less damage than other dps elite specs does not mean that it is not one of them.
    They deal less damage because they have more natural tankiness than other classes, but that is a general design of the necromancer. They all have the shroud mechanic, which ultimately always is a tanky mechanic, even if interpreted differently (like how scourge replaced the actual shroud with barrier).

    But we can also look to other games too. Diablo III has a Blood spear and Blood Nova build and both those builds are notoriously frail. Both have a massive amount of health recovery but if they're struck they can loose momentum. I've played both although I haven't gotten the opportunity to play the Corpse explosion build which i'm sure also probably has a health sacrifice variant or is one itself, and how all of those builds work is they are glasscannon DPS builds. Necromancer does have a Tank build or two in D3, however they're not health sacrifice builds. They specifically avoid that sort of skill.

    This is one aspect I want to discuss as well. This game may have interpreted the blood thematic in this way, but the blood thematic of the necromancer in guild wars 2 is interpreted differently.

    Look at the skills and traits we have so far which are associated with blood.
    Dagger is the weapon which has the deepest thematical connection to this, yet it is probably the most bruiser-ish weapon on core necromancer. Yes, it bleeds yourself, but this is almost no harm at all, meanwhile it can heal for way more than it is dealing as bleeding damage to you.
    Blood magic as a trait line is the exact opposite of what you describe, it is about healing allies and yourself, while also providing other supportive features.

    If I think about blood magic in guild wars 2, then I think about a draintank. Not a fragile suicide bomber.
    I understand that you want to see these old themes from guild wars 1 return, but guild wars 2 is a different game which interpreted quite alot of stuff in a way different way than the first game did. Blood magic, in my opinion, is one of these.

    The GW1 blood magic provided healing for allies as well. Not just in the form of life stealing. And this idea that we can't ever look to other games to try and understand the game we're playing, especially in the same genre of game is extremely nieve in terms of game design. Arena net themselves use a table top RPG game to test out their raid concepts first. If you want to talk radically different, a table top game is far more different than a Video game. Why they do it is because the mechanics are on display for them to more easily view than behind the scenes. We can do the same thing with Diablo, Guild wars 2, Guild wars 1, Final Fantasy 14, World of Warcraft. The laws that governs the themes and how they're balanced and used is very similar. All art is derivative of something else and all video games are derivative of earlier, simpler games.

    As for reaper. They are still a bruiser. You seem to think Brusier isn't a DPS, but it is. Reaper has multiple damage reduction skills and recovery traits. They do well against attrition and hit hard. That is what a bruiser does. Everything a bruiser is reaper fills.

  • KidRoleplay.3615KidRoleplay.3615 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2021

    Just for kicks, my krewe has been attempting to concoct a capable Power DPS option for core Necromancer, believing that present day capability and knowledge could compensate for the profession's shortcomings. Results have been thus far... according to pre-assessments (lacking).

    EDIT: For the record, I'm only accounting for PvE.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KidRoleplay.3615 said:
    Just for kicks, my krewe has been attempting to concoct a capable Power DPS option for core Necromancer, believing that present day capability and knowledge could compensate for the profession's shortcomings. Results have been thus far... according to pre-assessments (lacking).

    The build to compare it to, reaper, has a lot of power in the reaper shroud kit. And Death shroud just doesn't cut it. The strongest attack you can do with the highest possible DPS is life blast last I checked and it just doesn't compare to reaper's shroud.

    Now this could be shifted if core had access to utility skills in shroud while reaper didn't, then we would have something to really play with in terms of potential. But yeah, it's going to lag pretty far behind as of now.

    I've done tests myself. The best I could come up with for core necromancer was a Viper's flash shroud build. Just pop into shroud, burst the enter skills and weapon swap sigils and drop out. The issue is it's a burst of damage with little to follow it up so its only really okay in open world maps. And even there its inferior to scourge in places like Drizzlewood which was one of the testing grounds for core necromancer.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2021

    For condi scourge to be stronger in PVE relative to other condi builds averaging a few thousand DPS higher (including condi shortbow soulbeast which is ranged similar to scourge), several things need to happen:
    1. the punishment skills need to do more when targets don't have boons in PvE
    2. the boon corrupts should do 100 defiance bar damage equivalent to 1s fear (that's what stability corrupts into ; a defiance bar is a PvE substitute for stability) , which would in turn proc Insidious Disruption if traited
    3. PvE enemies should have boons worth corrupting for defensive / offensive value , we can see this in DRMs where the enemies' quickness + might converts to slow and weakness which mitigates damage immensely
    4. Sadistic Searing needs a better PvE recharge reduction or more PvE burn stacks , if you're running one or even four punishment skills it is extremely underwhelming. Dessicate should be competitive with Blood is Power or better. Ghastly Breach already is split between PvE and competitive, so just reduce cooldown further.
    5. an indirect way of supporting hybrid scourges would be to increase damage and heal scaling on vampiric presence while in shroud for PvE, see Predator's Cunning trait on soulbeast or Soulcleave summit

    Reaper could use a UI update: there's no reason why utilities could not show cooldowns but grayed out. The ease of use is a primary draw for people and ultimately the biggest liability is life force when there are no adds.

    Thief's ability to provide quickness could be PVE game-wide rather than a few raids by putting it into the trait Bountiful Theft (so it's not just vigor) or Thrill of the Crime, allowing a full Diviner Thief to supply quickness. The main thing is there isn't a strong condi build so it should be able to provide quickness when power isn't a strong or extremely viable option.

    Top end damage (i.e. the chrono that everyone always hates on) could be adjusted by lowering the danger time damage bonus to around 5 or 7%. Currently a solo chrono would only manage a typical ~36K DPS. This would only affect stacked chrono comps , similar to the "Feel my Wrath" change on DH. Lowering the vulnerability output on sword of justice would also even out the disparities in actual scenarios.

    Speaking of stacking, firebrands should probably have mantra of solace looked at. The quickness on the trait could be longer (or tacked on to mantra of potence) and then the recharge increased (along with a corresponding heal increase in all modes) as stacking firebrands means you have high amounts of aegis without running shield, utilities, or mace.

    Right now One Wolf Pack in fractals, spirits in raids, and banners are a staple. So you would look at classes that don't have major DPS , quickness/alac generation, or boon rips that can keep up with actual frequent boon generation rather than fractal instabilities like "No Pain no Gain" which are every 20s. I'd say other than these few points we aren't in a horrible spot PvE-wise.

    For PVP and WVW, reaper is in a better spot than it was before honestly.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would like to see some updates to a few playstyles for PvE.

    Turrets engineer
    Healer Scrapper
    Healer Tempest
    Healer scourge
    Core necromancer(Mostly Death Shroud)
    Condi Scourge
    Core Ranger
    Core Engineer
    Core thief
    Core Elementalist
    Minion Master

    All this could use some love. Not going into specifics for each since I'm currently at work and I'm not familiar with what some would need like thief and elementalist.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    For condi scourge to be stronger in PVE relative to other condi builds averaging a few thousand DPS higher (including condi shortbow soulbeast which is ranged similar to scourge), several things need to happen:
    1. the punishment skills need to do more when targets don't have boons in PvE

    I don't agree with this.

    1. the boon corrupts should do 100 defiance bar damage equivalent to 1s fear (that's what stability corrupts into ; a defiance bar is a PvE substitute for stability) , which would in turn proc Insidious Disruption if traited

    I agree that defiance bar is an issue to "boon hate" that need to be fixed. Defiance bar is much more that just "a PvE substitute for stability", technically it's also a semi substitute to resistance and vigor.

    1. PvE enemies should have boons worth corrupting for defensive / offensive value , we can see this in DRMs where the enemies' quickness + might converts to slow and weakness which mitigates damage immensely

    Thing is what really matter in PvE is bosses and bosses have defiance bar. Defiance bar allow them to be careless about weakness and slow.

    1. Sadistic Searing needs a better PvE recharge reduction or more PvE burn stacks , if you're running one or even four punishment skills it is extremely underwhelming. Dessicate should be competitive with Blood is Power or better. Ghastly Breach already is split between PvE and competitive, so just reduce cooldown further.

    I don't agree.

    1. an indirect way of supporting hybrid scourges would be to increase damage and heal scaling on vampiric presence while in shroud for PvE, see Predator's Cunning trait on soulbeast or Soulcleave summit

    Dangerous idea, very dangerous.
    From my point of view:

    • Punishments need to trigger a "boon corrupted" response on defiance bar. (which will make them apply both cripple and torment)
    • Boon convertion need to treat defiance like it would corrupt a vigor stack. (even if it doesn't remove it, it would at least add a bleed stack)
    • When in breakbar phase, "boon hate" (not just boon convertion) need to deal damage to the breakbar (whether it's 100 or 10 point, it's up to the devs)
    • If it's not enough, both torch skills can afford a buff to their condition output.

    Reaper could use a UI update: there's no reason why utilities could not show cooldowns but grayed out. The ease of use is a primary draw for people and ultimately the biggest liability is life force when there are no adds.

    I thin it's been discussed by one of the devs long ago, DS and RS are both transformations and the way transformations are coded make it impossible to do so. To make matter worse, any change to this could destabilize the game architecture. From ANet's devs point of view what you're asking is equivalent to create a whole new e-spec.

    Thief's ability to provide quickness could be PVE game-wide rather than a few raids by putting it into the trait Bountiful Theft (so it's not just vigor) or Thrill of the Crime, allowing a full Diviner Thief to supply quickness. The main thing is there isn't a strong condi build so it should be able to provide quickness when power isn't a strong or extremely viable option.

    I don't agree. All in all, if the thief become the reliable source of quickness in all encounter, you'll just end up with complains pouring that other profession can't express their support builds. It might be strange to say but, at the moment, the position the thief is in is probably the most well designed.

    Top end damage (i.e. the chrono that everyone always hates on) could be adjusted by lowering the danger time damage bonus to around 5 or 7%. Currently a solo chrono would only manage a typical ~36K DPS. This would only affect stacked chrono comps , similar to the "Feel my Wrath" change on DH. Lowering the vulnerability output on sword of justice would also even out the disparities in actual scenarios.

    I do not think that it would be a significative change to the "meta", so I'm neither against nor for this change.

    Speaking of stacking, firebrands should probably have mantra of solace looked at. The quickness on the trait could be longer (or tacked on to mantra of potence) and then the recharge increased (along with a corresponding heal increase in all modes) as stacking firebrands means you have high amounts of aegis without running shield, utilities, or mace.

    I've got no opinion here.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2021

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    For condi scourge to be stronger in PVE relative to other condi builds averaging a few thousand DPS higher (including condi shortbow soulbeast which is ranged similar to scourge), several things need to happen:
    1. the punishment skills need to do more when targets don't have boons in PvE

    I don't agree with this.

    1. the boon corrupts should do 100 defiance bar damage equivalent to 1s fear (that's what stability corrupts into ; a defiance bar is a PvE substitute for stability) , which would in turn proc Insidious Disruption if traited

    I agree that defiance bar is an issue to "boon hate" that need to be fixed. Defiance bar is much more that just "a PvE substitute for stability", technically it's also a semi substitute to resistance and vigor.

    1. PvE enemies should have boons worth corrupting for defensive / offensive value , we can see this in DRMs where the enemies' quickness + might converts to slow and weakness which mitigates damage immensely

    Thing is what really matter in PvE is bosses and bosses have defiance bar. Defiance bar allow them to be careless about weakness and slow.

    1. Sadistic Searing needs a better PvE recharge reduction or more PvE burn stacks , if you're running one or even four punishment skills it is extremely underwhelming. Dessicate should be competitive with Blood is Power or better. Ghastly Breach already is split between PvE and competitive, so just reduce cooldown further.

    I don't agree.

    1. an indirect way of supporting hybrid scourges would be to increase damage and heal scaling on vampiric presence while in shroud for PvE, see Predator's Cunning trait on soulbeast or Soulcleave summit

    Dangerous idea, very dangerous.
    From my point of view:

    • Punishments need to trigger a "boon corrupted" response on defiance bar. (which will make them apply both cripple and torment)
    • Boon convertion need to treat defiance like it would corrupt a vigor stack. (even if it doesn't remove it, it would at least add a bleed stack)
    • When in breakbar phase, "boon hate" (not just boon convertion) need to deal damage to the breakbar (whether it's 100 or 10 point, it's up to the devs)
    • If it's not enough, both torch skills can afford a buff to their condition output.

    Reaper could use a UI update: there's no reason why utilities could not show cooldowns but grayed out. The ease of use is a primary draw for people and ultimately the biggest liability is life force when there are no adds.

    I thin it's been discussed by one of the devs long ago, DS and RS are both transformations and the way transformations are coded make it impossible to do so. To make matter worse, any change to this could destabilize the game architecture. From ANet's devs point of view what you're asking is equivalent to create a whole new e-spec.

    Thief's ability to provide quickness could be PVE game-wide rather than a few raids by putting it into the trait Bountiful Theft (so it's not just vigor) or Thrill of the Crime, allowing a full Diviner Thief to supply quickness. The main thing is there isn't a strong condi build so it should be able to provide quickness when power isn't a strong or extremely viable option.

    I don't agree. All in all, if the thief become the reliable source of quickness in all encounter, you'll just end up with complains pouring that other profession can't express their support builds. It might be strange to say but, at the moment, the position the thief is in is probably the most well designed.

    Top end damage (i.e. the chrono that everyone always hates on) could be adjusted by lowering the danger time damage bonus to around 5 or 7%. Currently a solo chrono would only manage a typical ~36K DPS. This would only affect stacked chrono comps , similar to the "Feel my Wrath" change on DH. Lowering the vulnerability output on sword of justice would also even out the disparities in actual scenarios.

    I do not think that it would be a significative change to the "meta", so I'm neither against nor for this change.

    Speaking of stacking, firebrands should probably have mantra of solace looked at. The quickness on the trait could be longer (or tacked on to mantra of potence) and then the recharge increased (along with a corresponding heal increase in all modes) as stacking firebrands means you have high amounts of aegis without running shield, utilities, or mace.

    I've got no opinion here.

    I don't know why you would be against increasing vampiric presence damage/healing for the necro only (while in shroud) for PvE only. Running Parasitic Contagion in Curses means you give up AoE on scepter and a large part of scepter's condition duration , whereas Soul Eater has no such impact on Reapers and scrappers don't even need to trait anything (~33K DPS in full zerk). Bosses do have boons as well (especially in fractals), it's just that the defiance bar is an additional feature. There really isn't a reason to buff offhand torch, Lucky Noobs' build actually runs double torch. You are better off increasing output from other offhands or weapons' conditions (offhand dagger for example) so that a full rotation has more skills to use.

    Holosmith's Photon Forge is a transformation as well which is why you can't pick up crystals in Solid Ocean fractals. Firebrand tomes aren't , berserker berserk mode is sort of a transform (Rampage has the same UI problem), and soulbeast merging isn't. Druids can use utilities in Celestial Avatar.

    A simple change to thief would not make it meta in PvE. Instead it would just be a weaker alternative to StM chrono that is easier to play while also allowing people with boon thief to use their gear elsewhere. Firebrands will remain meta so long as there is role compression (healbrand) and covering mistakes via aegis. Condi boon chrono will remain meta in cases where confusion is high damage ; it can also provide alacrity.

    Speaking of Berserker spec, it could use some help in PvP. I think that being able to drop berserk mode (at a cost of losing all adrenaline and all berserk mode damage mods) is more or less essential for it to be viable. Greatsword's Hundred Blades being able to move while channeling the skill would help too. Mirage's one dodge meme is a problem in WvW but as it isn't run in squads typically and chrono is common in squads it isn't as large a priority. If druids could perma-stow their pet in WvW they might be more accepted also.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    I don't know why you would be against increasing vampiric presence damage/healing for the necro only (while in shroud) for PvE only.

    I'm against it because it's an unneeded change. Renegade granting broken life leeching through soulcleave summit don't justify a buff on vampiric presence.

    Running Parasitic Contagion in Curses means you give up AoE on scepter and a large part of scepter's condition duration ,

    Lingering curse, the scepter trait, is an overloaded trait that no trait can compete against for condi build. It's one of the most broken trait of the necromancer that everyone agree to turn a blind eye upon. +200 condi damage while wielding a scepter, +50% scepter's skills condi duration and make a single target skill of the scepter hit up to 5 targets.

    Parasitic contagion is interesting in design but it doesn't have what it take to compete with a trait that feed on GW2's players main philosophy ("Moar damage! Moar!").

    whereas Soul Eater has no such impact on Reapers and scrappers don't even need to trait anything (~33K DPS in full zerk).

    Soul eater also increase damage on top of the "heal". Which feed on GW2's players main philosophy ("Moar damage! Moar!").

    In any way, both Parasitic contagion and Soul eater are purely selfish traits while Vampiric presence is an altruistic trait. You're comparing apple and orange here which make your point confusing.

    Bosses do have boons as well (especially in fractals), it's just that the defiance bar is an additional feature.

    Bosses do have boons but:

    • They are assaulted by 5 to 10 (to zerg amount of players) players which make the competition for boon hate effect extremly high in PvE.
    • Bosses boons usually translate to useless conditions because having regen isn't going to have an impact on their billion high health pool, they have no use for vigor, Defiance protect them flawlessly against chill/cripple/slow/taunt and CCs (making stab/resistance) while aegis is bound to be broken by random hits before being corrupted. And on top of that bosses/mobs could careless about alacrity since they do not have CD on their skills.

    Boons on Bosses have low meaning, except maybe might and protect. Unfortunately both of those boons are converted to conditions that bosses can basicaly ignore.

    There really isn't a reason to buff offhand torch, Lucky Noobs' build actually runs double torch. You are better off increasing output from other offhands or weapons' conditions (offhand dagger for example) so that a full rotation has more skills to use.

    There might be no reason but it's where a scourge's damage buff would be the most impactful and the least broken.

    Holosmith's Photon Forge is a transformation as well which is why you can't pick up crystals in Solid Ocean fractals. Firebrand tomes aren't , berserker berserk mode is sort of a transform (Rampage has the same UI problem), and soulbeast merging isn't. Druids can use utilities in Celestial Avatar.

    You're glossing over the issue. The arguments of the devs when they made them were about the classic transforms which mainly include rampage, tornado, Moa, lich form, Plagueform, DS, RS, become bear, become raven, become wolf, become leopard, avatar of melandru and summon powersuit. Those skills have a specific design. In case of the necromancer's DS and RS, changing this design is like redrawing the whole profession from the ground which can at best create numerous bugs and at worst break the game. The fact that they no longer have any of the initial developpers that could effectively work with the core architecture of the game make the change very difficult to implement and above all it would be high risk changes for the whole game.

    A simple change to thief would not make it meta in PvE. Instead it would just be a weaker alternative to StM chrono that is easier to play while also allowing people with boon thief to use their gear elsewhere. Firebrands will remain meta so long as there is role compression (healbrand) and covering mistakes via aegis. Condi boon chrono will remain meta in cases where confusion is high damage ; it can also provide alacrity.

    Then what? You'll have 5/10 team thiefs, who could careless about alacrity because "initiative", that capitalize on their ability to perma quickness/fury/might/swiftness by using a single skill every 20s and just melt bosses? Would there be any big difference with the "mesmer issue"? Like I said, you're just creating another broken support by making it spread quickness, nothing more nothing less.

    Speaking of Berserker spec, it could use some help in PvP. I think that being able to drop berserk mode (at a cost of losing all adrenaline and all berserk mode damage mods) is more or less essential for it to be viable. Greatsword's Hundred Blades being able to move while channeling the skill would help too. Mirage's one dodge meme is a problem in WvW but as it isn't run in squads typically and chrono is common in squads it isn't as large a priority. If druids could perma-stow their pet in WvW they might be more accepted also.

    Well, I believe that the thread is more or less: "PvP/WvW get change regularly, why don't we see more change in PvE?"
    Sure both mode could afford more tweaks but that's not exactly what the thread is meant to discuss.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2021

    I guess we'll just agree to disagree on scourges then. Vampiric Presence is minimal damage for the rest of the group due to the interval limitation on top of being a life steal. Therefore increasing the damage for the necromancer (in shroud, mind you) only makes sense to me especially when you consider that you are more likely to run condi scourge than power. (It means that in PVE your maximum power is limited to around 3000.) Keep in mind Desert Shroud , unlike Reaper Shroud , has 20 base cooldown and 6s duration and merely 3.5 seconds duration when traited for Harbringer Shroud. Because it is lifesteal that doesn't scale with damage modifiers, you would not even use it on reapers which have far more benefit from Soul Reaping's Death Perception + Soul Barbs.

    The only time that boon removal is rampant is if you run a power chronomancer stack (because of sword auto), which is why in a condi fight a change that benefits scourges is meaningful boon removal. If you have condi renegades or another necromancer it isn't going to be every few seconds due to resource limitations and cooldowns.

    Re: thieves
    It (quickness) would not be broken on thieves if you needed diviner stats to actually maintain quickness on subgroup (as opposed to all boons , which is what Detonate Plasma supplies). Having it come from Bountiful Theft / Thrill of the Crime is markedly different than the prior "Feel My Wrath" or Time Warp stacking because you would either need to run core thief or drop a damage traitline on daredevil (the maximum damage bonus from trickery is 15% , whereas Critical Strikes has 7% multiplier and at least 20% from ferocity bonuses originating from No Quarter and Practiced Tolerance). Right now condi Firebrands are getting all quickness duration from Firebrand rune , chronomancers that are stacked use staggered intervals of Time Warp.

    • Might? It's 3 stacks. You get more from using Mantra of Potence or symbol of punishment, Heroic Command on renegade, "For Great Justice!"on warriors (if for some reason you decide to do that), boon herald facets, druids with warhorns, ... or running tempests of any kind
    • Fury? You can maintain already it with sword/axe on DPS firebrands and DHs. Boon herald can just upkeep facets. Most DPS classes can supply their own fury except for holosmith which needs boon duration unless running Short Fuse.
    • Swiftness? herald facets , but really... the only classes that capitalize off this are weaver (so no added benefit), warriors with Discipline traitline, and DPS scrapper

    Considering Daredevil is a 35K DPS spec it is a different situation. If you run Snowcrows' Gear optimizer (which doesn't count spirits other than Frost Spirit or 25 stacks of vulnerability) with standard DPS daredevil the result is 23K whereas unchecking the entire Critical Strikes trait line results in <18K and that is without boon duration ; current Diviner Boon Thief results in 15K while Diviner Boon Daredevil results in ~12K if you check off pack runes and also ~12K if you check off mystical infusions. If you uncheck Critical Strikes or Deadly Arts on Deadeye (and leave it 0% boon duration) you end up with ~16K instead of ~21.6K so it'd be only on par with a StM chrono roughly if deadeye is a thing.

    Core boon thief right now does not even use trickery, it uses Improvisation and Swindler's Equilibrium . Daredevil variant uses Sleight of Hand and Improvisation to drop Steal cooldown. Even in an "optimal" scenario such as Mursaat Overseer keeping in mind Detonate Plasma is 10 man and Bountiful Theft is 5, boon daredevil is supposedly 22K vs a DPS class which will do 30K+. On Adina, Boon Daredevil is listed as 12.5K vs 17K+ for DPS classes. In a suboptimal scenario such as Matthias, boon daredevil is listed as 9K vs 25K+ for condi DPS.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    For condi scourge to be stronger in PVE relative to other condi builds averaging a few thousand DPS higher (including condi shortbow soulbeast which is ranged similar to scourge), several things need to happen:

    I'm going to comment on this too since Scourge is my main way I enjoy playing and I do think there are ways to help solve the issues.

    1. the punishment skills need to do more when targets don't have boons in PvE

    I don't actually agree they have to. Punishment skills work well enough and what they do tends to be a bit stronger than other skills as is. You don't need to adjust boons in PvE to make Necromancer viable and even if you did it wouldn't work due to the sword auto attack on mesmer which is just quicker and better boon removal. It wouldn't quite work out like you want and it wouldn't be reliable. I do want more boons in PvE, but that's more a utility support type thing than to aid in DPS.

    1. the boon corrupts should do 100 defiance bar damage equivalent to 1s fear (that's what stability corrupts into ; a defiance bar is a PvE substitute for stability) , which would in turn proc Insidious Disruption if traited

    That wouldn't really do anything to aid necromancer or scourge. Necromancer already does very well against breakbars. So having more isn't really a solution especially when there are long chunks of fights were the breakbar isn't active. Even if it applied fear It wouldn't be enough since you'd be giving up Plague Sending which would make Master of corruption less effective which which would also mean that you'd have to use dagger more. That's not a bad thing on its own but relying on transfer in a group is tricky in most groups since the support's gut reaction to you having condis on you is to cleans them. There's also the issue if you take terror you're trying to rely on terror to deal damage when in no circumstance does the condition last as long as the bleeding and torment from Blood is power which will outpace the burst from both insidious disruption and terror combine.

    Even in the optimal situation it isn't quite as helpful as you might like.

    1. PvE enemies should have boons worth corrupting for defensive / offensive value , we can see this in DRMs where the enemies' quickness + might converts to slow and weakness which mitigates damage immensely

    I agree. Boons make enemies more interesting and I'd go further having boons give those enemies unique buffs that can drastically change how you would approach them. However most the classes do not have access to boon removal so this could harm them more than helping necromancer. I'm personally in favor of sharing far more boon removal across classes as I feel its a vital tool, and corruption should be unique to necromancer(and maybe specific corruption on engineer) however boon removal shouldn't be isolated on so few skills across class. And Boon removal should be removed from Mind Spike. Seriously, that one freakin skill undermines all boon changes.

    1. Sadistic Searing needs a better PvE recharge reduction or more PvE burn stacks , if you're running one or even four punishment skills it is extremely underwhelming. Dessicate should be competitive with Blood is Power or better. Ghastly Breach already is split between PvE and competitive, so just reduce cooldown further.

    Sadistic searing is perfectly reasonable for what it does. its not the area the scourge needs changed. I do agree Ghastly breach needs some buffs, however that is independent of Searing. Breach being more supportive is where i'd go with it as it seems that's what arena net wants for it, a sort of controlling and supportive skills but it really only works as a controlling skill in PvP and not so much as support in any game mode.

    1. an indirect way of supporting hybrid scourges would be to increase damage and heal scaling on vampiric presence while in shroud for PvE, see Predator's Cunning trait on soulbeast or Soulcleave summit

    I get where you're coming from on this, however what the support scourge needs is more boons it can play with. Such as Fury, regen, and quickness/alacrity. You could double presence while scourge is using desert shroud and it wouldn't aid them all that much as a support. They really need boon support especially since the elite spec was supposed to have it but anet for some reason though might was enough when might is probably the most common boon in the game.

    Here https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1366036#Comment_1366036

    A post I made a while ago looking at some of the issues with scourge and how to solve them on scourge. I do think you're heart is in the right place and I agree scourge needs some TLC, however I think it can be done with more pragmatic solutions as opposed to trying to reinvent entire systems so necromancer has a place in PvE.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021

    That doesn't make sense because punishment skills aren't used in PVE at all other than the Sand Flare heal (for barrier). In WvW you bring wells and trail of anguish is the only punishment skill besides the heal for barrier. You're basically bringing Sadistic Searing for a minor bit of burn if punishment skills don't bring anything worthwhile to the table versus boonless targets.

    Let's say a target has no boons...

    • Dessicate: might isn't that long or high stacks , if you run full plaguedoctor you have 5 stacks maintained under alacrity (running Abrasive Grit over Fell Beacon gives up torch recharge and expertise but it still isn't as bad)
    • Sand Swell: only used for mobility , the barrier is lower than Sand Cascade
    • Serpent Siphon: the poison is 1 stack... so you're bringing it for less barrier than you have on Sand Cascade or boon conversion only 1 deep
    • Trail of Anguish: in order to have more than 1 stack of burn you need to have the target pass over it multiple times , but this is a stunbreak and swiftness/stability so it is okay

    I'm also not sure how you quantify "good at breakbars" because other than fears (garish pillar) , daze, and 2s knockdown on torch there isn't hard CC on the meta scourge and it's not like you can afford to swap all your utilities out for a pull/fear/immob. Just because PUG DPS players think that "CC bars are the responsible of the alac" doesn't make it true.
    Hard CC

    • Wail of Doom = 200 daze on warhorn
    • Charge (flesh golem) = 200 from knockdown
    • Oppressive collapse = 200 from torch
    • Spectral Grasp = 150 pull +33/s from chill, utility slot

    Soft CC

    • Garish Pillar (F4) Fear = 100/second , 200 total only if running Fear of Death in Soul Reaping
    • Spectral Ring Fear = 100/second , 200 total only if running Fear of Death in Soul Reaping
    • Haunt from Shadow fiend = Blind (20/s) + chill (33/s) + weakness (20/s)
    • Grasping Dead (scepter 2) Cripple = 15/second
      https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiance_bar#Hard_control_effects

    It is extremely unlikely for necromancer to get fury, quickness, or alacrity as new shared boons. Your best hope for alacrity is to flip incoming chills with Nefarious Favor (F2).
    It's already been shown that number adjustments are the primary balancing mechanism right now, see 300s cooldown for some defensive skills in competitive modes.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    Re: thieves
    It (quickness) would not be broken on thieves if you needed diviner stats to actually maintain quickness on subgroup (as opposed to all boons , which is what Detonate Plasma supplies). Having it come from Bountiful Theft / Thrill of the Crime is markedly different than the prior "Feel My Wrath" or Time Warp stacking because you would either need to run core thief or drop a damage traitline on daredevil (the maximum damage bonus from trickery is 15% , whereas Critical Strikes has 7% multiplier and at least 20% from ferocity bonuses originating from No Quarter and Practiced Tolerance). Right now condi Firebrands are getting all quickness duration from Firebrand rune , chronomancers that are stacked use staggered intervals of Time Warp.

    • Might? It's 3 stacks. You get more from using Mantra of Potence or symbol of punishment, Heroic Command on renegade, "For Great Justice!"on warriors (if for some reason you decide to do that), boon herald facets, druids with warhorns, ... or running tempests of any kind
    • Fury? You can maintain already it with sword/axe on DPS firebrands and DHs. Boon herald can just upkeep facets. Most DPS classes can supply their own fury except for holosmith which needs boon duration unless running Short Fuse.
    • Swiftness? herald facets , but really... the only classes that capitalize off this are weaver (so no added benefit), warriors with Discipline traitline, and DPS scrapper

    Considering Daredevil is a 35K DPS spec it is a different situation. If you run Snowcrows' Gear optimizer (which doesn't count spirits other than Frost Spirit or 25 stacks of vulnerability) with standard DPS daredevil the result is 23K whereas unchecking the entire Critical Strikes trait line results in <18K and that is without boon duration ; current Diviner Boon Thief results in 15K while Diviner Boon Daredevil results in ~12K if you check off pack runes and also ~12K if you check off mystical infusions. If you uncheck Critical Strikes or Deadly Arts on Deadeye (and leave it 0% boon duration) you end up with ~16K instead of ~21.6K so it'd be only on par with a StM chrono roughly if deadeye is a thing.

    Core boon thief right now does not even use trickery, it uses Improvisation and Swindler's Equilibrium . Daredevil variant uses Sleight of Hand and Improvisation to drop Steal cooldown. Even in an "optimal" scenario such as Mursaat Overseer keeping in mind Detonate Plasma is 10 man and Bountiful Theft is 5, boon daredevil is supposedly 22K vs a DPS class which will do 30K+. On Adina, Boon Daredevil is listed as 12.5K vs 17K+ for DPS classes. In a suboptimal scenario such as Matthias, boon daredevil is listed as 9K vs 25K+ for condi DPS.

    You're looking at things from the wrong angle. Just know that:

    • Both Bountiful Theft and Thrill of the Crime are already very strong traits that don't need any buff.
    • A change to the boons of these traits is bound to impact the game as a whole, not just PvE (and I'd rather not have PvPers complain yet again about "PvE changes").
    • Stacking thiefs change a lot of things to the builds priorities and thus your "numbers", making all of them pointless. To put it simply, you don't need swindler equilibrium if you have X thiefs in a group, It also make the 3 might into 3X (even a single DE among them could allow you to cap might without breaking a sweat), you also don't need the same gear/rune/food than what you'd use for a classic boon thief... etc.

    I can see what you aim for and it's not a fondamentally wrong objectif, but, all in all, what you suggest would open a window of opportunity that would be very easy to exploit in order to create something broken.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    Re: thieves
    It (quickness) would not be broken on thieves if you needed diviner stats to actually maintain quickness on subgroup (as opposed to all boons , which is what Detonate Plasma supplies). Having it come from Bountiful Theft / Thrill of the Crime is markedly different than the prior "Feel My Wrath" or Time Warp stacking because you would either need to run core thief or drop a damage traitline on daredevil (the maximum damage bonus from trickery is 15% , whereas Critical Strikes has 7% multiplier and at least 20% from ferocity bonuses originating from No Quarter and Practiced Tolerance). Right now condi Firebrands are getting all quickness duration from Firebrand rune , chronomancers that are stacked use staggered intervals of Time Warp.

    • Might? It's 3 stacks. You get more from using Mantra of Potence or symbol of punishment, Heroic Command on renegade, "For Great Justice!"on warriors (if for some reason you decide to do that), boon herald facets, druids with warhorns, ... or running tempests of any kind
    • Fury? You can maintain already it with sword/axe on DPS firebrands and DHs. Boon herald can just upkeep facets. Most DPS classes can supply their own fury except for holosmith which needs boon duration unless running Short Fuse.
    • Swiftness? herald facets , but really... the only classes that capitalize off this are weaver (so no added benefit), warriors with Discipline traitline, and DPS scrapper

    Considering Daredevil is a 35K DPS spec it is a different situation. If you run Snowcrows' Gear optimizer (which doesn't count spirits other than Frost Spirit or 25 stacks of vulnerability) with standard DPS daredevil the result is 23K whereas unchecking the entire Critical Strikes trait line results in <18K and that is without boon duration ; current Diviner Boon Thief results in 15K while Diviner Boon Daredevil results in ~12K if you check off pack runes and also ~12K if you check off mystical infusions. If you uncheck Critical Strikes or Deadly Arts on Deadeye (and leave it 0% boon duration) you end up with ~16K instead of ~21.6K so it'd be only on par with a StM chrono roughly if deadeye is a thing.

    Core boon thief right now does not even use trickery, it uses Improvisation and Swindler's Equilibrium . Daredevil variant uses Sleight of Hand and Improvisation to drop Steal cooldown. Even in an "optimal" scenario such as Mursaat Overseer keeping in mind Detonate Plasma is 10 man and Bountiful Theft is 5, boon daredevil is supposedly 22K vs a DPS class which will do 30K+. On Adina, Boon Daredevil is listed as 12.5K vs 17K+ for DPS classes. In a suboptimal scenario such as Matthias, boon daredevil is listed as 9K vs 25K+ for condi DPS.

    You're looking at things from the wrong angle. Just know that:

    • Both Bountiful Theft and Thrill of the Crime are already very strong traits that don't need any buff.
    • A change to the boons of these traits is bound to impact the game as a whole, not just PvE (and I'd rather not have PvPers complain yet again about "PvE changes").
    • Stacking thiefs change a lot of things to the builds priorities and thus your "numbers", making all of them pointless. To put it simply, you don't need swindler equilibrium if you have X thiefs in a group, It also make the 3 might into 3X (even a single DE among them could allow you to cap might without breaking a sweat), you also don't need the same gear/rune/food than what you'd use for a classic boon thief... etc.

    I can see what you aim for and it's not a fondamentally wrong objectif, but, all in all, what you suggest would open a window of opportunity that would be very easy to exploit in order to create something broken.

    I already addressed that, the quickness duration can be 1/4 second in PVP/WVW. Bountiful Theft is literally useless in PVE when the target has no boons and because it's in Trickery, once again I emphasize it will not have the same damage as a full DPS.
    Also, unless you can develop a team comp that actually "breaks the game" from one change (to bountiful theft), I'm just going to have to say that is pure conjecture. Especially when you consider that a druid provides full might easily, I don't think it would be gamebreaking. Unless you are going to meme you're still going to bring some sort of heals.