Dagger/Focus: Power Necro's weapon set?

This is a piece of a comprehensive effort to revamp Necromancer into competitive PvE form.

Other proposed changes:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/11990/proposal-bloodthirst-necromancers-alacrityhttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/12619/wells-and-spectral-utilities-in-pve

General core Necromancer (Power) weapon issues:

• Inconsistent/low life force generation on most weapons.
• Underwhelming power options.
• No viable melee/cleave set-up for the core Necromancer weapon line-up.
• In light of the condi meta, main-hand dagger fell out of favor while focus really never saw any play at all. Even now, the pair is mostly banished from regular play in both PvE and PvP. In order to solve the issues stated above and fill the role of Necromancer's go-to power option, I propose a re-work to Dagger/Focus that would let it function as a free-form brawler set with a more robust rotation, a little bit of mobility and some versatile CC.

Dagger main-hand

! [Life Siphon] (2)! Cast-time: 2¼s / Recharge: 1s! Siphon life from foes in front of you. While below the life force threshold, successful strikes grant life force. If you are above the threshold, gain Bloodthirst.! Number of targets: 5! Damage (4x): (3.2)! Life Force threshold: 30%! Life Force: 3%! Bloodthirst (3s): 5% of damage dealt is returned to you as healing (max: 390 (0.5) health).! Maximum Count: 2! Count Recharge: 10s! Range: 400

!This attack strikes foes in a cone identical to Elementalist [Cone of Cold].

!Life force gain triggers once per successful strike regardless of the number of targets struck. Life force gain will not occur if the player misses or the attack is evaded.

!Threshold Bloodthirst is gained immediately upon skill activation.

! [Dark Pact] (3)! Cast-time: 1s / Recharge: 10s! Leap to the target area and damage foes when you land. Deal more damage based on your life force total.! Number of targets: 5! Damage below 25% life force: (0.25)! Damage above 25% life force: (0.75)! Damage above 50% life force: (1.25)! Damage above 75% life force: (1.75)! Radius: 180! Combo Finisher: Leap! Range: 800

!Attack functions identically to Engineer's [Jump Shot].

Focus

! [Reaper's Touch] (4)! Cast-time: ¾s / Recharge: 1s! Unleash a barrage of necrotic blades that return to you. These blades damage foes and heal allies. Gain life force for each foe you strike.! Number of targets: 5! Number of allies: 5! Blades: 3! Damage: (0.8)! Vulnerability|2| (8s): 2% Incoming Damage, 2% Incoming Condition Damage! Healing: 130 (0.125)! Life Force: 3%! Maximum Count: 2! Count Recharge: 12s! Range: 900

!This skill fires “necromancer-green” [Vapor Blade] projectiles which space themselves and travel out in a manner that is functionally equivalent to the 3-blade version of the Poobadoo [Vapor Blade] attack.

!Any given blade will only grant life force once regardless of the number of foes that it strikes along its forward and return paths respectively.

! [spinal Shivers] (5)! Cast-time: 1s / Recharge: 25s! Freeze the ground in front of you, chilling foes with every pulse. If this field strikes a foe that is already chilled, it instead inflicts damage and removes a boon.! Number of targets: 5! Pulses: 6! Chilled (4s): -66% Skill Recharge Rate, -66% Movement Speed! Damage vs chilled foes: (0.55)! Boons removed from chilled foes: 1! Field duration: 6s! Combo Field: Ice! Range: 480! * Unblockable

!Skill functions akin to Revenant [searing Fissure]. The field created by this skill also matches the size of [searing Fissure].

!The field strikes immediately upon creation and then at the start of each second of its duration (6 strikes total).

Dagger:Your Dark Pact version (5 target immob at 800 range) is totally broken/OP on a 10 second cooldown. On top of that it does not make sense as dagger cleaves only 2 tagets. Why should I leap to 5 targets and root them, when I can only damage (=pressure) 2 of them afterwards? This is worse for me than for my opponents. Where is the synergy?

Talking about the 800 leap: combine that with RS2 (i know you are talking about core necro, but you can't simply ignore the elite specs) and you gain an insane mobility. The leap would not help core necro because core shroud is already ranged (why should I leap to a target when my shroud is ranged? - again: Where is the synergy?) but break reaper. Mobility should be created with a utility skill at a cooldown around 30 seconds - e.g. reduce Flesh Worm cast time to 0,5 seconds.

Your updated Life Siphon makes current dagger issues even worse as you nerf the range. The problem with dagger is that you are too vulnerable when using it. GS fixes that with Nightfall.

Dagger needs either

• more damage to improve the impact as you are extremely vulnerable when staying melee on that weapon for too long or
• more sustain (hard cc, blind, weakness ...) or
• more range for Life Siphon and Dark Pact (900 would be fine in the skills current state)

Focus:is fine as it is. Good single target pressure, good range, good cast time, good LF gain, great for gap closing (slow targets that try to kite you).

I would rather see MH Dagger be turned into a support weapon than it and Axe competing with one another for the top power spec weapon spot. Dagger also has no synergy with itself besides Dark Pact bleeding yourself for more heal on Life Siphon and using either is a loss of dps anyways.

One big problem with core necromancer is that there is no big "execute" skill.

If you position right and outmaneuver your enemy, then what is your finisher mover? Dagger 1 is your best bet in most circumstances. It's all you have.

I would improve focus before dagger. Few use focus in pvp. Very few bring it to solo Q/ leagues, and even fewer bring it to tournaments. Why would they? It is outclassed by warhorn in both damage and control, and warhorn at least brings swiftness which helps to alleviate a big problem with the class.

Focus 4 is a candidate for a total rework. The skill is wonky about when it hits from range, and doesn't "bounce" (which accounts for 66% of the damage of the skill) unless there is an another ally or enemy right on top of the target. Mirror blade, a similar skill that does higher damage on less cool down, always does 100% skill damage, because it creates a clone to bounce off of.

This skill is so frustrating to use. If you aren't standing inside of a non moving target, because, for example you are in a pvp game and players move, the skill nerfs its own damage by 66%. Even at 100% effect the damage is not the execute it needs to be.

Suggested Changes: it does all of the damage on the first hit and then the bounces just apply regeneration and vulnerability. OR, it becomes a full clone of mirror blade, spawning a jagged horror on hit.

Also, why regeneration? Necromancer can't even benefit from regeneration in its shroud. What about fury or might or vigor?

I also hate Focus 5. This is the boon ripping tool, that does damage for the boons that you rip. In other words, if your enemy has few boons, you get only 25% damage. The skill also chills. The problem with the skill is that if you hit an enemy with the maximum number of boons, in an ideal circumstance it is a great skill. But, if this scenerio does not exist, the skill is super weak. It is out of the necromancer's control whether this is a good skill. I hate skills that require a condition that is out of the caster's control in order to work. Anet has to balance around ideal circumstances, so most of the game the skill is awful. In addition, focus five is tied to a widely used spite trait. The trait is too strong in ideal circumstances and useless other times.

I would "nerf" focus 5. Power necromancer has bad access to boon conversion. Even though axe 3 and spit traits exist, Power necromancer cannot keep up with Mesmer or spell breaker in boon ripping. Focus 5 should be a control tool, not a "setup a spike tool". I would scrap all of the conditional damage, change 3 boons removed to 2 boons converted and greatly lower cast time and cool down, the spite trait also nerfed.

@KrHome.1920 said:Dagger:Your Dark Pact version (5 target immob at 800 range) is totally broken/OP on a 10 second cooldown. On top of that it does not make sense as dagger cleaves only 2 tagets. Why should I leap to 5 targets and root them, when I can only damage (=pressure) 2 of them afterwards? This is worse for me than for my opponents. Where is the synergy?

You do it because now you have two, low-cooldown ammo charges on 2 and 4 which provide high damage at close range, can heal you, and each cleave to up 5 targets. Along with their respective cast-times, those two skills alone are enough to keep a player busy for roughly 7s (so to avoid relying too much on auto spam).

AoE immob on a 10s CD is probably too strong, though. I could agree.

@KrHome.1920 said:

Talking about the 800 leap: combine that with RS2 (i know you are talking about core necro, but you can't simply ignore the elite specs) and you gain an insane mobility.

First off, I can already tell that you're approaching this from a PvP standpoint. The first line of the first post reads how this is all formulated within the scope of PvE. That aside, if you want PvP to be better, there are a lot of fundamental issues with the main game-mode to first address that cause a lot of things on GW2 to be naturally overpowered. That's not to say that class balance isn't a joke, but seriously, conquest really doesn't do the game's combat any favors by funneling people into tiny circles the size of the average AoE. Changes to the game-mode itself can have more powerful effects outright rather than picking at number values on a class-to-class basis.

I didn't forget about reaper, but is more mobility for necro bad considering the class has 0 effective defense compared to various other block/stealth/passive-soaked classes who also happen to fly around a map without a second thought? It's still slower than holosmith, mirage, and shortbow thief spam. Man, if all cooldowns were up, greatsword warrior would keep pace in a short-term chase.

@KrHome.1920 said:

The leap would not help core necro because core shroud is already ranged (why should I leap to a target when my shroud is ranged? - again: Where is the synergy?)

It synergizes with it's own weapon set's range. Moreover, I didn't re-design these weapons in a vacuum. I re-worked death shroud and staff in order to create a comprehensive power rotation along with this set-up (which included plenty of re-positioning mobility). Also, Death Shroud is a hybrid ranged set unless you forgot how the 4 and 5 skills work. Death Shroud also has a gap closer within its set (which I re-worked to be more free-form instead of target-bound). The only reason I didn't drop both of those things in here is because the thread would probably be too much for most of this game's players to digest at once (same reason why there is a thread for the spectral and well utilities).

@KrHome.1920 said:

Mobility should be created with a utility skill at a cooldown around 30 seconds - e.g. reduce Flesh Worm cast time to 0,5 seconds.

While that's a fine idea on the side, I don't see why you're being so final about that suggestion. You make it sound like necro is already bordering on "too mobile" (whatever that means within the scope of rocket boots, portal/mirage sword 1 and general thief memes). Besides, while an idea like that operates in a vacuum (since minions are generally bad and your buffed Wurm is still effectively just a bad, two-stage blink), at least the re-designs I'm proposing are all interconnected with other re-designs so that everything makes sense holistically (especially when it comes to making Necromancer viable in PvE).

@KrHome.1920 said:

Your updated Life Siphon makes current dagger issues even worse as you nerf the range. The problem with dagger is that you are too vulnerable when using it. GS fixes that with Nightfall.

PvE design. Also, if you looked at the links above, you would see that a Mender's Blood Magic necro could deal high damage while netting considerable HP with every use of siphon in conjunction with a few other abilities which would make face-tanking the combos a reckless decision.

@KrHome.1920 said:

Dagger needs either

• more damage to improve the impact as you are extremely vulnerable when staying melee on that weapon for too long or
• more sustain (hard cc, blind, weakness ...) or
• more range for Life Siphon and Dark Pact (900 would be fine in the skills current state)

You must not have read any of the damage modifiers, because the dagger/focus above is terrifying at close-range in PvP (especially in conjunction with some of the options in the other threads listed at the top). Giving 600+ range to Drake's Breath damage would be nonsense. 400 range is fine considering all the other re-designs and self-healing sustain.

@KrHome.1920 said:

Focus:is fine as it is. Good single target pressure, good range, good cast time, good LF gain, great for gap closing (slow targets that try to kite you).

If focus is "good" at anything then why doesn't it see regular play in any mode?? The LF gain is tied to a buggy projectile on an 18s CD. The only time that the focus 5 skill sees use is when people equip the cancer passive Chill of Death. All that aside, the very FACT that it is single-target "pressure" (a highly debatable claim), do you forget that every other weapon option for core necro is also bound by gw2's sloppy targeting system? Core necro weapons have zero cleave. That needs to be addressed. Focus is a bad weapon, so it is a good candidate for a re-work.

i would rather them do changes to dagger main and dagger offhand, making offhand dagger have a block move and mainhand having a leap. Focus i think the main change would be skill 4. i feel instead of giving vul to foes and regen to allies it should steal boons off enemies and transfer them to allies hit by the scythes for a more boon remover weapon .

I dont know if i like your idea for life siphon.

For dark pact if its a leap it should be a leap finsher and not a blast finsher and a 800 range leap on a 10 sec would make it the strongest leap on any weapon and as if Anet would ever give us something like that. A 600 range leap on a min. 15 sec cd seems more balanced.

For focus, dont put a bloodthirst bonus on it when the weapon doesnt even give bloodthirst. The weapon needs also to function with axe.

@Muchacho.2390 said:I dont know if i like your idea for life siphon.

That's fine, but I don't hear a reason why.

@Muchacho.2390 said:

For dark pact if its a leap it should be a leap finsher and not a blast finsher and a 800 range leap on a 10 sec would make it the strongest leap on any weapon and as if Anet would ever give us something like that. A 600 range leap on a min. 15 sec cd seems more balanced.

Considered. Other people raised the same sort of concerns already. Probably going to change it a bit.

@Muchacho.2390 said:

For focus, dont put a bloodthirst bonus on it when the weapon doesnt even give bloodthirst. The weapon needs also to function with axe.

There are many other ways to gain bloodthirst aside from just life siphon.

@Swagg.9236 said:There are many other ways to gain bloodthirst aside from just life siphon.

And what if you dont have those ways equipped/skilled? You could, even with all your proposed changes, build a necromancer that doesnt have bloodthirst but a focus equipped. Thats bad game design in my opinion and hence i dont think it should be done that way. By the way i also dislike the current life siphon because of this (bonus on bleed but you can build a mh dagger necro without any bleeds). Though life siphon is less bad because bleeds are more common and you still can get bleed though the corrupt on dark pact when your opponent has vigor.

@Muchacho.2390 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:There are many other ways to gain bloodthirst aside from just life siphon.

Have you ever thought that GW2 has too much choice? That the sheer amount of "options" scattered throughout trait lines, weapons, armor, runes, sigils, infusions, trinkets, utilities, heals and even the little wiggle room in the elite slot is mostly just wasted space? This game craves clarity and focus. If there is a mechanic on a weapon, the player ought to conform to synergy proposed by that mechanic. Not only does that help the player determine the most effective build to create, but just using some abilities which imply synergy with others can also give opponents insight into what is about to happen next (something that this game desperately needs with all its particle spam and passive-centric gameplay).

That aside, giving Focus 5's massive boon-strip capabilities a gimmie on every single weapon variation would be pretty insane. Sacrificing a part of one's weapon bar should be at the very minimum cost for something as powerful as that. On top of that, you have two weapon bars. Load up the other one with axe and something else. Pairing current axe with this re-worked focus would be silly. Don't do that.

@Muchacho.2390 said:

You could, even with all your proposed changes, build a necromancer that doesnt have bloodthirst but a focus equipped. Thats bad game design in my opinion and hence i dont think it should be done that way.

You're not giving me any real reason to believe why it's bad. You're just stating a reality and then giving an opinion.

@Muchacho.2390 said:By the way i also dislike the current life siphon because of this (bonus on bleed but you can build a mh dagger necro without any bleeds). Though life siphon is less bad because bleeds are more common and you still can get bleed though the corrupt on dark pact when your opponent has vigor.

The addition of "more effective health gain while bleeding" was just a meme buff to make people pretend that anet could still be creative. Single-weapon synergy is overrated when it's just a tiny chunk of the build on the whole. Builds need more holistic synergy which asks the player to build the entire bar in a certain way for maximum effectiveness. If there is a "correct" way to play despite an ocean of bloat options, it makes combat a lot more legible since people will know what to expect out of certain classes before a fight begins and while a fight goes on. If all of that is already out in the open before combat starts, then it's up to the players themselves to be better than each other in combat rather than one player losing or winning because one of them hard counters the other without realizing it or because one player built his bar "incorrectly."

This is a piece of a comprehensive effort to revamp Necromancer into competitive PvE form.General core Necromancer (Power) weapon issues:

But nothing here would make Necromancers PvE viable.The only thing it actually buffs is condi reaper.

@Sarrs.4831 said:

This is a piece of a comprehensive effort to revamp Necromancer into competitive PvE form.General core Necromancer (Power) weapon issues:

Cleave, bigger numbers, and a much more robust rotation which all fit to the other suggestions which give Necro a party-wide damage buff utility (which alone provides huge reason to bring any class even if their personal DPS is bad; see: Power Chrono).

@Sarrs.4831 said:The only thing it actually buffs is condi reaper.

Good point. Fixed.