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A necessary improvement in preparation for the Legendary Armory

Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited March 25, 2021 in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

It occurred to me that as it stands for legendaries, outside of legendary weapons, there's a lot of requiring people to invest very hard into particular game types for the given legendary. Raids require collections and materials, the Skirmish ticket grinds are no joke (and the irony of hitting rank 10000 in WvW is that perhaps the skirmish tickets have almost no practical purpose after that point, you'd have enough for everything from that game mode).

This is a HUGE problem. Lots of people don't enjoy ranked PVP, they're not going to want to do that or tournaments for the neck, lots of people don't raid. In contrast, lots of people feel very "done" with these game modes once they're making the legendaries because There's no reason to go back.

I think that the devs should implement systems to make items for achievements and materials for legendaries between game modes acquireable by trade in some way, either drops that can be traded and turned in at the vendor, or perhaps allow people to sell components directly. This will allow people to do what they enjoy the most but still progress their character in that direction if they so desire. It'll spur tons of economic activity and it can kill the "doneness" feeling once you earn the legendaries from the game modes you enjoy, now you can keep enjoying them and earn extra cash by helping other people in their journey for full Legendary armory sets. Also, if you just want to play the OW and earn money that way, it becomes a doable strategy as well. It lets players decide how they want to play and still progress their accounts. Just an idea.

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Comments

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You can already do this, you play open world gather gold pay sellers to get your progress for raid legendary armor.
    Anyone can get into wvw or spvp to grind out the stuff needed there, if they wish.

  • Game of Bones.8975Game of Bones.8975 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There will be too many people bringing up the argument of "pay to win." If you have enough real world cash, you can buy your way to a legendary set of armor, bypassing much of the time and grind that a legendary is famous for. But, I do agree that selling excess mats (no matter the rarity) to a vendor is much different than selling to players. There's stuff I hoard now because I MIGHT make another legendary, but don't like what's available right now.

    Before you try to talk about trading mats from one version of armor to another, you need to be very specific on the items which are equal across the board for crafting legendary armor. For instance, some may come easier than others (be of lower value) at the same you could trade 2, 3, 5, or even 10:1 for an item which is super-rare and much higher value.

    For now, I've stuck to ascended armor and legendary weapons. (Until I learn raid combat rotations well enough to join a group and pull my own weight)

    Ask a child a question and you'll get a childish answer.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2021

    Yes and no...

    The acquisiton of specific currency needs to be rebalanced per game mode. As it is, PvP and WvW currency are a massive grind compared to raid armor, for a worse reward (no animated skin). More so because, most people don't have the time required to max out weekly gains (and it IS a bit too much to get to diamond), so it will take ate least 5x more time to get compared to even the longest raid acquisition because raid currency doesn't depend on your rank, only how many bosses you killed that week. There's a massive difference there that needs to be addressed. Luckily, there's some really good threads in each respective section with suggestions that would fix that without becoming too lenient. If only Anet would listen.

    But no, i don't see them changing anything because they're there to make people interested in those game modes.
    IF you want a specific armor, you do that mode. If you only play open world, well, you don't really need a legendary do you? Exotic is fine, there's nothing in overworld that requires balanced stats and infusions...

    I can see them maybe adding open world legendary armor, but it will probably be even less visually impressive than WvW/PvP ones while taking even more time...

    But... It's not like open world doesn't have its own legendaries (Vision, Aurora), so since the point is that - if you want a fully legendary character you have to play all modes - i don't see them adding the armor other than where it already is. Each mode has its own legendaries, and if you want them all, you'll play them all. They just need to fix the imbalance a bit, that's all.

  • WindBlade.8749WindBlade.8749 Member ✭✭✭

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    But... It's not like open world doesn't have its own legendaries (Vision, Aurora), so since the point is that

    I think you also forgot the 37 openworld legendary weapons :) ? there is none in pvp/wvw/raids/fractals

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @WindBlade.8749 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    But... It's not like open world doesn't have its own legendaries (Vision, Aurora), so since the point is that

    I think you also forgot the 37 openworld legendary weapons :) ? there is none in pvp/wvw/raids/fractals

    Oh, indeed i did forget those! :sweat_smile:
    Yeah, i mean, it's not like open world doesn't have legendaries, there's really no need for armor there too.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @WindBlade.8749 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    But... It's not like open world doesn't have its own legendaries (Vision, Aurora), so since the point is that

    I think you also forgot the 37 openworld legendary weapons :) ? there is none in pvp/wvw/raids/fractals

    If you're talking weapons, that's not 100% accurate: I think you could only claim that Gen1 are actually "open world" Gen 2 require stabilized dark energy balls, which require matrices from fractals (in the very least). Also, the first 4 Gen2 legendaries also require particular fractals.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2021

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Legendaries tied to specific game modes are there to drive players to play them. I don’t see this changing.

    1) I don't think it's good game design to force people to play game modes they don't like, making the special ones tradeable essentially gives the different types of players economic leverage to trade with each other. With the announcement of LA, I feel like the impetus will be higher to earn them and this design decision will not pay off in that context. Eventually players wake up and quit when they realize they're not having fun, not matter the size of the carrot they're supposed to chase.

    2) I think this could only serve to revitalize the raid community in NA, if only to bring experienced raiders back to play with each other. community pings are failing far more often at organizing on NA raid academy. I'm not sure how the elites are doing, but I bet they're bleeding every now and then due to attrition. LA gives a definite end point to where raids are still useful as far as progression goes. People who don't want to bother with raids can get a legendary for every slot through another means as slumbering conflux and conflux aren't exclusive to each other. I would see raid legendaries being the most valuable just because of how few people do them.

    3) Also, I feel like the extra pips in WvW for 10k rank are pointless. by that point you'd be able to buy anything you want as far as the skirmish ticket legendary precursors are concerned. This basically gives you payback for being this far.

  • Eloc Freidon.5692Eloc Freidon.5692 Member ✭✭✭✭

    PvE getting a second method to acquire Legendary armor will always be welcome. PvP got two, so I can really see it happening.

    Icebrood Saga weapon collections cost 10500 Gold to craft! Including new Fiery/Icy Weapons!
    *Does not include Volcanic Stormcaller set.

  • Solanum.6983Solanum.6983 Member ✭✭✭

    I think that's kind of the point especially when it comes to the Trinkets, they want to force players into different game modes.
    I completely agree with the WvW tickets, WvW in general has very low and slow rewarding system since it's based of time in the game mode over anything else. I wish they'd rework the rewards on both tracks to be progressed by capping/defending too but with the updates wvw gets I don't think a change that big will happen anytime soon.

    I'd like at the very least that items like armor required the same amount of time. On you're first PvE Raid Armor you can make one legendary Armor piece every week. In WvW one piece of armor will take you 4-5 weeks of keeping participation up for hours every day.

  • WindBlade.8749WindBlade.8749 Member ✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @WindBlade.8749 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    But... It's not like open world doesn't have its own legendaries (Vision, Aurora), so since the point is that

    I think you also forgot the 37 openworld legendary weapons :) ? there is none in pvp/wvw/raids/fractals

    If you're talking weapons, that's not 100% accurate: I think you could only claim that Gen1 are actually "open world" Gen 2 require stabilized dark energy balls, which require matrices from fractals (in the very least). Also, the first 4 Gen2 legendaries also require particular fractals.

    Maybe 2.5 gen are not openworld but 2.0gen are 100% openworld, they are composed like gen1 of 3-4 long collection with only openworld stuffs in it.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @WindBlade.8749 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @WindBlade.8749 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    But... It's not like open world doesn't have its own legendaries (Vision, Aurora), so since the point is that

    I think you also forgot the 37 openworld legendary weapons :) ? there is none in pvp/wvw/raids/fractals

    If you're talking weapons, that's not 100% accurate: I think you could only claim that Gen1 are actually "open world" Gen 2 require stabilized dark energy balls, which require matrices from fractals (in the very least). Also, the first 4 Gen2 legendaries also require particular fractals.

    Maybe 2.5 gen are not openworld but 2.0gen are 100% openworld, they are composed like gen1 of 3-4 long collection with only openworld stuffs in it.

    Really.... how are you getting your Gift of Battle in Open World?
    What about all the fractals?

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • WindBlade.8749WindBlade.8749 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2021

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @WindBlade.8749 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @WindBlade.8749 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    But... It's not like open world doesn't have its own legendaries (Vision, Aurora), so since the point is that

    I think you also forgot the 37 openworld legendary weapons :) ? there is none in pvp/wvw/raids/fractals

    If you're talking weapons, that's not 100% accurate: I think you could only claim that Gen1 are actually "open world" Gen 2 require stabilized dark energy balls, which require matrices from fractals (in the very least). Also, the first 4 Gen2 legendaries also require particular fractals.

    Maybe 2.5 gen are not openworld but 2.0gen are 100% openworld, they are composed like gen1 of 3-4 long collection with only openworld stuffs in it.

    Really.... how are you getting your Gift of Battle in Open World?
    What about all the fractals?

    forgot about them since i always have ton of fractals kitten and wvw kitten, but yea it's true not 100%, like 90-95%, i think it's still make them openworld when the collection part the craft part and make only 5-10% of the whole thing.

  • lokh.2695lokh.2695 Member ✭✭✭✭

    No. If you want the thing you have to do the thing. If you don't want to do the thing to get the thing, you don't want the thing enough. No easy ways, no workarounds, nothing. Do it and get it or don't.

    Why bother, just delete the official Forum.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Legendaries tied to specific game modes are there to drive players to play them. I don’t see this changing.

    1) I don't think it's good game design to force people to play game modes they don't like, making the special ones tradeable essentially gives the different types of players economic leverage to trade with each other. With the announcement of LA, I feel like the impetus will be higher to earn them and this design decision will not pay off in that context. Eventually players wake up and quit when they realize they're not having fun, not matter the size of the carrot they're supposed to chase.

    They’re not forced in the sense that it’s not something they actually need to play the game nor any of the content.

    That said, this game has numerous instances of specific rewards tied to specific content. It gives players a reason to do that content who may not necessarily do it otherwise.

    This has been in the game since launch and yet you don’t get content claims of those rewards being “bad design”. It’s simply due to specific rewards being tied to specific content which some people don’t want to do so they make a stink about it.

    2) I think this could only serve to revitalize the raid community in NA, if only to bring experienced raiders back to play with each other. community pings are failing far more often at organizing on NA raid academy. I'm not sure how the elites are doing, but I bet they're bleeding every now and then due to attrition. LA gives a definite end point to where raids are still useful as far as progression goes. People who don't want to bother with raids can get a legendary for every slot through another means as slumbering conflux and conflux aren't exclusive to each other. I would see raid legendaries being the most valuable just because of how few people do them.

    Taking a reward tied to a game mode, reward that was a primary driver for a lot of people to play it, and make it available outside would do the opposite of what you’re claiming.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Legendaries tied to specific game modes are there to drive players to play them. I don’t see this changing.

    There should be more alternatives, though. Driving players too hard only drives them away.

    How’s it driving them “too hard”? They’re optional rewards.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    They’re not forced in the sense that it’s not something they actually need to play the game nor any of the content.

    Most things in this game - things that keep players playing it are like that. In fact, this game goes out of your way to give you all you need to play it very fast. It then keeps people in the game with basically only "optional" content. The key is - it may be technically optional, but the devs generally don't want tooo many players to decide to opt out of them. Or to opt out of too many of those.

    That said, this game has numerous instances of specific rewards tied to specific content. It gives players a reason to do that content who may not necessarily do it otherwise.

    And this is bad approach. There's absolutely no reason for devs to push players towards specific content. It should be perfectly fine to give players enough reasons to keep playing in whatever content the players desire.

    A player that goes for the stuff they want in the content they like is far better for devs than a player that goes for the stuff they want in a content they hate and as a result burns out and reduces their overall interest in the game. Not to mention players that go into content they dislike only for stuff that is there (and get out of that content as soon as they get what they wanted) may cause devs to heavily misread the situation and content popularity. They may think a content is popular, and make more of it, only to realize later that it was all rewards, and their effort got wasted.

    Basically, as long as the player keeps playing, it's better if they are doing it in the content they like.

    This has been in the game since launch and yet you don’t get content claims of those rewards being “bad design”.

    No? I see those all the time, practically since game launched. They keep returning very regularly.

    Taking a reward tied to a game mode, reward that was a primary driver for a lot of people to play it, and make it available outside would do the opposite of what you’re claiming.

    Sure. But then, if a certain content popularity is mainly driven by some unique reward in it, do we really need a content like that in the first place?

    How’s it driving them “too hard”? They’re optional rewards.

    If a reward requires too heavy grind in a certain content a player dislikes, it results in one of two things - either player decides to give up on the reward, or doesn;t give up, and gets burned out. Neither is actually beneficial for the game. Not even players that do like that content benefit from it, because players that are in it for the rewards only are far more likely to play ina way that might cause conflict with the normal players of that mode (see stuff like afk farming in pvp, or people trying to get into raid groups to get carried)

    Also, "but it's optional" is not an argument in a game where practically everything players do is due to optional content.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    They’re not forced in the sense that it’s not something they actually need to play the game nor any of the content.

    Most things in this game - things that keep players playing it are like that. In fact, this game goes out of your way to give you all you need to play it very fast. It then keeps people in the game with basically only "optional" content. The key is - it may be technically optional, but the devs generally don't want tooo many players to decide to opt out of them. Or to opt out of too many of those.

    That said, this game has numerous instances of specific rewards tied to specific content. It gives players a reason to do that content who may not necessarily do it otherwise.

    And this is bad approach. There's absolutely no reason for devs to push players towards specific content. It should be perfectly fine to give players enough reasons to keep playing in whatever content the players desire.

    A player that goes for the stuff they want in the content they like is far better for devs than a player that goes for the stuff they want in a content they hate and as a result burns out and reduces their overall interest in the game. Not to mention players that go into content they dislike only for stuff that is there (and get out of that content as soon as they get what they wanted) may cause devs to heavily misread the situation and content popularity. They may think a content is popular, and make more of it, only to realize later that it was all rewards, and their effort got wasted.

    Basically, as long as the player keeps playing, it's better if they are doing it in the content they like.

    So someone playing only dungeons should be able to obtain every single reward in the game from that? So someone playing only fractals should be able to obtain every single reward in the game from that? So someone playing only adventures/activities/beetle races should be able to obtain every single reward in the game from that? So someone doing the core Tyria world boss train should be able to obtain every single reward in the game from that? I can go on and on with this.

    Bad approach, why? Rewards tied to specific content are there to drive players towards that content. This keeps the content more active for a longer period of time as well as get people to go and try different things. Players have plenty of reasons to play the content that they desire. This does not mean that all rewards should be made available for whatever that content may be.

    I highly suggest that you sit back and think about how the game would be if every single reward were made available to every player for whatever content they enjoy.

    This has been in the game since launch and yet you don’t get content claims of those rewards being “bad design”.

    No? I see those all the time, practically since game launched. They keep returning very regularly.

    You see those only about specific rewards, not all rewards. Namely, you see this mostly about legendaries.

    Taking a reward tied to a game mode, reward that was a primary driver for a lot of people to play it, and make it available outside would do the opposite of what you’re claiming.

    Sure. But then, if a certain content popularity is mainly driven by some unique reward in it, do we really need a content like that in the first place?

    You do realize that you could say that about almost every area of the game, right? Imagine if all Living Story rewards were made available outside of the Living Story episodes including masteries, mastery points, and achievement points. How many would still do the living story? Would it be enough to justify having that content in the game? If those episodes did remain, how long do you think it would be before they were abandoned?

    Having certain rewards tied to certain types of things has been a thing in games for a very long time.

    How’s it driving them “too hard”? They’re optional rewards.

    If a reward requires too heavy grind in a certain content a player dislikes, it results in one of two things - either player decides to give up on the reward, or doesn;t give up, and gets burned out. Neither is actually beneficial for the game. Not even players that do like that content benefit from it, because players that are in it for the rewards only are far more likely to play ina way that might cause conflict with the normal players of that mode (see stuff like afk farming in pvp, or people trying to get into raid groups to get carried)

    Also, "but it's optional" is not an argument in a game where practically everything players do is due to optional content.

    It's only a heavy grind if the player rushes it because they are impatient. This can be be said for grind anywhere including content which players may enjoy. Of the players who enjoy SAB, how many do you think enjoying grinding it for the rewards? What kind of impact do you think that grinding has on them towards their feelings about SAB? If you do anything excessively, you're going to speed up the time it takes before you're sick of it.

    Something being optional is still very much a valid argument even when everything in the game is optional. Other content being optional too doesn't change that.

    If you disagree then by all means provide the logic behind how optional is not a valid argument when everything else in the game is option as well.

  • Cuks.8241Cuks.8241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I prefer that the best items in a game are tied to the harder content. It is a game after all where some competition is expected and skill should be rewarded. Not saying this is consistent for gw2, far from it, but let's not remove the cases where that is so.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2021

    with equipment tab system legendary armor is very pointless, is more pratical collect ascedend armor.
    anyone who need more than 3 status on same alt have a very complicated life.

    which matter is only looks, a cool looking legendary armor will be welcome.

    -- Atlantean Sword --
    The secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, Conan. You must learn its discipline. For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts..." [Points to sword] "This you can trust."

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    I would suggest we get a new way to get legendary armor in PvE by farming strike missions and DRM CM’s and getting general icebrood saga mats, but only through purchasing and upgrading the runic armor.

  • Will.9785Will.9785 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2021

    We just need more ways to acquire the trinkets IMO. For example: 3 legendary amulets (1 from PvP, 1 from PvE, 1 from WvW), more accessories, more rings, etc. Make them all unique.

    The PvP tournament wins just kept me from ever going hard for the amulet personally. I tried doing the tournament wins first because if I can't show off the legendary getting the 120 wins required won't even be worth it. I found that if you don't have a dedicated group its almost impossible to win the tournaments. I've tried pugging several times and I've yet to get a single win as a gold3/plat 1 player. A pug group just can't beat a well coordinated team from my experience. You just have to get lucky and hope you come across another pug team, which I haven't. I gave up after 4-5 tournaments without a single match won. I really despise the decision to require the tournament wins. I get that they want to drive players towards certain things but that's really niche.

    I'm hoping the Icebrood Saga legendary is an amulet.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Will.9785 said:
    I'm hoping the Icebrood Saga legendary is an amulet.

    I'm holding off on getting the sPvP amulet in case we do get another legendary trinket at the end of the saga and it happens to be an amulet. Even if not, only having to buy ascended amulets isn't that big of a deal for me.

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My thoughts run along the lines of "If there's a game mode I don't want to play, it doesn't matter what kind of carrot they put on the end of the stick, I'm not going to run it". Since it's true that I'm not going to play it, I really don't need the gear that makes it easier. It's not a "but this community or that community is bad" thing either. I don't raid anymore, anywhere, because of my migraines. All the flashy stuff is bad for them, so I don't play. As someone that's been doing raiding in MMOs since 2005, quitting a few years back was kinda sad, but needed to happen. So, if a game feels like it needs to lock certain items behind certain content, I'll just never get it, and, it just doesn't matter, since I won't need it anyway. Yes, it means that there are certain achievements, or whatever, that I won't have, but it just doesn't matter, because it's not worth it to me.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2021

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    My thoughts run along the lines of "If there's a game mode I don't want to play, it doesn't matter what kind of carrot they put on the end of the stick, I'm not going to run it". Since it's true that I'm not going to play it, I really don't need the gear that makes it easier. It's not a "but this community or that community is bad" thing either. I don't raid anymore, anywhere, because of my migraines. All the flashy stuff is bad for them, so I don't play. As someone that's been doing raiding in MMOs since 2005, quitting a few years back was kinda sad, but needed to happen. So, if a game feels like it needs to lock certain items behind certain content, I'll just never get it, and, it just doesn't matter, since I won't need it anyway. Yes, it means that there are certain achievements, or whatever, that I won't have, but it just doesn't matter, because it's not worth it to me.

    Well my mental issues might be part of the problem here. I'm perfectly fine not getting them. But I have some half-baked collection items laying around from when i thought I'd raid. I don't want to throw them away because they need to be processed, but on the flip side, it's getting harder and harder to even find groups when I care. My OCD wants those out of my inventory ONE DAY. I also don't want to throw them away just in case I have a reason to complete the collections (or the gods smile on me and give me the CHoya confetti infusion which I'll be able to trade for the raids I need against the few sellers).

    I would be 100% happy if I could just finish the Envoy collections and coalescence. I already have the precursor for coalescence + partially completed alembic apparatus, so there's no way around junk there, I have to complete it. But envoy? I can just buy the recipes & salvage it for globs of dark matter for other leggies.

    I'll just add: the only ways of completing legendary armor being raiding, PVP and WvW is not good moving forward. As others have mentioned the latter 2 are very grindy and the first has its problems.

    Also, all 3 of those game modes have seen the least dev cycles. That's really crazy to put out all this awesome content, and then expect people to ignore it with your weakest.

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    My thoughts run along the lines of "If there's a game mode I don't want to play, it doesn't matter what kind of carrot they put on the end of the stick, I'm not going to run it". Since it's true that I'm not going to play it, I really don't need the gear that makes it easier. It's not a "but this community or that community is bad" thing either. I don't raid anymore, anywhere, because of my migraines. All the flashy stuff is bad for them, so I don't play. As someone that's been doing raiding in MMOs since 2005, quitting a few years back was kinda sad, but needed to happen. So, if a game feels like it needs to lock certain items behind certain content, I'll just never get it, and, it just doesn't matter, since I won't need it anyway. Yes, it means that there are certain achievements, or whatever, that I won't have, but it just doesn't matter, because it's not worth it to me.

    Well my mental issues might be part of the problem here. I'm perfectly fine not getting them. But I have some half-baked collection items laying around from when i thought I'd raid. I don't want to throw them away because they need to be processed, but on the flip side, it's getting harder and harder to even find groups when I care. My OCD wants those out of my inventory ONE DAY. I also don't want to throw them away just in case I have a reason to complete the collections (or the gods smile on me and give me the CHoya confetti infusion which I'll be able to trade for the raids I need against the few sellers).

    I would be 100% happy if I could just finish the Envoy collections and coalescence. I already have the precursor for coalescence + partially completed alembic apparatus, so there's no way around junk there, I have to complete it. But envoy? I can just buy the recipes & salvage it for globs of dark matter for other leggies.

    I'll just add: the only ways of completing legendary armor being raiding, PVP and WvW is not good moving forward. As others have mentioned the latter 2 are very grindy and the first has its problems.

    Also, all 3 of those game modes have seen the least dev cycles. That's really crazy to put out all this awesome content, and then expect people to ignore it with your weakest.

    I get it, and I know people just like that. For me, and looking at it realistically, it's been like this for forever, and if they were inclined to change it, it would have happened long before now. I'm sure this topic has come up before. So I'm not being dismissive, I'm just being realistic, and stating my own view on the topic, because there's no single piece of gear in the game worth 3 or more days confined to my recliner, wishing my head would just explode and get it over with. :o

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't see how this ties into the legendary armory specifically. Legendary gear has always been a game feature for a minority of the total playerbase. Naturally the same will be true for the legendary armory (according to what we know about it right now). If legendary items in gw2 have been fine for over 8 years even though relatively few players are pursuing them, then this suggestion certainly isn't a "necessary preparation" for the legendary armory feature.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2021

    @Katary.7096 said:
    If legendary items in gw2 have been fine for over 8 years even though relatively few players are pursuing them, then this suggestion certainly isn't a "necessary preparation" for the legendary armory feature.

    If.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    So someone playing only dungeons should be able to obtain every single reward in the game from that? So someone playing only fractals should be able to obtain every single reward in the game from that? So someone playing only adventures/activities/beetle races should be able to obtain every single reward in the game from that? So someone doing the core Tyria world boss train should be able to obtain every single reward in the game from that? I can go on and on with this.

    You can, but that's not exactly what i was saying.

    Basically, there should be alternatives available, so at least players can choose in which content they'd prefer to obtain them. If there are no alternatives, then the rewards in question should not require heavy grinding in that single content. And the one thing that should never be done is making a certain reward or group of rewards a major purpose of a content - if a content cannot survive without unique rewards, that content is likely not worth developing in the first place.

    It is okay, though, to introduce certain rewards in order to draw players to content, but they should be buried relatively shallowly into it and not require massive investment of time. It should take just enough for the player to get acquainted with the content, but not require the player to spend massive amount of time in it past the point where they decided whether they like the content or not.

    Bad approach, why? Rewards tied to specific content are there to drive players towards that content. This keeps the content more active for a longer period of time as well as get people to go and try different things.

    Again, if a content cannot survive without unique rewards, it's probably not worth developing in the first place. All you need to keep longevity of a good content is good enough value of rewards. In fact, it's even better, because draw through unique rewards lasts only until said reward is obtained, but good reward value is universal, and lasts forever (and can be adjusted easily if changes to future content would make it too weak or too strong).

    You see those only about specific rewards, not all rewards. Namely, you see this mostly about legendaries.

    Yeah, usually the threads are about a specific reward, but i've seen those about practically most if not all of the content-restricted ones. Not just legendaries - the first ones were about dungeon skins, actually. And since that time repeated a lot, until the skins appeared eventually in the pvp/wvw reward tracks.

    Taking a reward tied to a game mode, reward that was a primary driver for a lot of people to play it, and make it available outside would do the opposite of what you’re claiming.

    Sure. But then, if a certain content popularity is mainly driven by some unique reward in it, do we really need a content like that in the first place?

    You do realize that you could say that about almost every area of the game, right? Imagine if all Living Story rewards were made available outside of the Living Story episodes including masteries, mastery points, and achievement points. How many would still do the living story? Would it be enough to justify having that content in the game? If those episodes did remain, how long do you think it would be before they were abandoned?

    Again, see my first comment about how shallowly or deeply should unique rewards be buried. Consider which type of those approaches living story rewards you mentioned are.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Quench.7091Quench.7091 Member ✭✭✭

    While I don't think that it is needed to acquire legendaries, the PvP amulet does seem like it's in a strange place. The other legendaries seem to want you to step out of your comfort zone a tiny bit. The PvP amulet on the other hand is all like "Be aware that you may be spectated or streamed while participating." It's supposed to be an event held for the most serious PvPers and that's where you want people to go to step out of their bubble? I get the other PvP achievements, just not the tournament one.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I’ve had this discussion over and over and it’s been the same each and very time. I believe at least once, you’ve been a part of it as well. I stated my stance and that’s what I’m sticking with.

    I do want to address one thing though:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Again, if a content cannot survive without unique rewards, it's probably not worth developing in the first place. All you need to keep longevity of a good content is good enough value of rewards. In fact, it's even better, because draw through unique rewards lasts only until said reward is obtained, but good reward value is universal, and lasts forever (and can be adjusted easily if changes to future content would make it too weak or too strong).

    Take what you just said and look at every map in the game. How many of them should have not been created in the first place based on what you just said?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2021

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    I’ve had this discussion over and over and it’s been the same each and very time. I believe at least once, you’ve been a part of it as well. I stated my stance and that’s what I’m sticking with.

    I do want to address one thing though:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Again, if a content cannot survive without unique rewards, it's probably not worth developing in the first place. All you need to keep longevity of a good content is good enough value of rewards. In fact, it's even better, because draw through unique rewards lasts only until said reward is obtained, but good reward value is universal, and lasts forever (and can be adjusted easily if changes to future content would make it too weak or too strong).

    Take what you just said and look at every map in the game. How many of them should have not been created in the first place based on what you just said?

    Good example - the maps do show very well how what i said is completely true.

    Maps generally depend on whether there's something worthwile on them to do, but that worth is not counted by uniqueness of rewards. In fact, the rewards that can be obtained repeatedly and turned into value work way better for achieving longevity of content.

    Maps that need to be farmed for something unique, but do not have any repeated rewards of value to offer beyond that end up dead very fast, while those whose metas are rewarding retain their longevity, regardless of whether they offer anything unique or not.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    I’ve had this discussion over and over and it’s been the same each and very time. I believe at least once, you’ve been a part of it as well. I stated my stance and that’s what I’m sticking with.

    I do want to address one thing though:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Again, if a content cannot survive without unique rewards, it's probably not worth developing in the first place. All you need to keep longevity of a good content is good enough value of rewards. In fact, it's even better, because draw through unique rewards lasts only until said reward is obtained, but good reward value is universal, and lasts forever (and can be adjusted easily if changes to future content would make it too weak or too strong).

    Take what you just said and look at every map in the game. How many of them should have not been created in the first place based on what you just said?

    Good example - the maps do show very well how what i said is completely true.

    Maps generally depend on whether there's something worthwile on them to do, but that worth is not counted by uniqueness of rewards. In fact, the rewards that can be obtained repeatedly and turned into value work way better for achieving longevity of content.

    Maps that need to be farmed for something unique, but do not have any repeated rewards of value to offer beyond that end up dead very fast, while those whose metas are rewarding retain their longevity, regardless of whether they offer anything unique or not.

    The problem being, of course, that all of this content is just like a map. It exists for the ones that are going to love it, and to provide access to rewards that can't be gotten anywhere else. I've gotten the "Been there, done that" title, but I only did it once, because there's no real reason to do it again. It's not like I need it to level up, since that's easily done w/out 100%ing the core maps. I don't need Legendary gear, because I'm not doing anything, and have no plans to do anything, that requires it. So why do I need an alternative method to achieve it?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2021

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    The problem being, of course, that all of this content is just like a map. It exists for the ones that are going to love it, and to provide access to rewards that can't be gotten anywhere else. I've gotten the "Been there, done that" title, but I only did it once, because there's no real reason to do it again. It's not like I need it to level up, since that's easily done w/out 100%ing the core maps. I don't need Legendary gear, because I'm not doing anything, and have no plans to do anything, that requires it. So why do I need an alternative method to achieve it?

    Why do you think people were going for Legendaries before Raids were introduced? I can tell you that for the most part it wasn't for WvW.

    Legendary armor for example was never meant to be just a nice reward for those that liked raid content. It was always meant to be a major draw for players to bring them to raids, whether they like the content or not. Same with the legendary items in SPvP - those are not something that SPvP players need, seeing as the stat system in this mode is completely different and legendary stat switching feature (or ascended-tier stat level) simply do not matter there. They are there to draw PvE players into PvP.

    It was never about "need". Almost nothing in this game is, actually. It was always around "want".

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    The problem being, of course, that all of this content is just like a map. It exists for the ones that are going to love it, and to provide access to rewards that can't be gotten anywhere else. I've gotten the "Been there, done that" title, but I only did it once, because there's no real reason to do it again. It's not like I need it to level up, since that's easily done w/out 100%ing the core maps. I don't need Legendary gear, because I'm not doing anything, and have no plans to do anything, that requires it. So why do I need an alternative method to achieve it?

    Why do you think people were going for Legendaries before Raids were introduced? I can tell you that for the most part it wasn't for WvW.

    Legendary armor for example was never meant to be just a nice reward for those that liked raid content. It was always meant to be a major draw for players to bring them to raids, whether they like the content or not. Same with the legendary items in SPvP - those are not something that SPvP players need, seeing as the stat system in this mode is completely different and legendary stat switching feature (or ascended-tier stat level) simply do not matter there. They are there to draw PvE players into PvP.

    It was never about "need". Almost nothing in this game is, actually. It was always around "want".

    Who are the players most likely to raid? Those that like it. I did it for years, because I liked it. I had to quit because of my migraines, so I'm not inclined to do it any more, and I certainly don't need gear to make not doing it easier. But people that don't like it, they're not going to play it just because of rewards. You can't force them to play it, and there's no need to change how the gear is handled.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    Who are the players most likely to raid? Those that like it. I did it for years, because I liked it. I had to quit because of my migraines, so I'm not inclined to do it any more, and I certainly don't need gear to make not doing it easier. But people that don't like it, they're not going to play it just because of rewards. You can't force them to play it, and there's no need to change how the gear is handled.

    Well, i did raids solely for the legendary armor (as i do not like this kind of HC content, i prefer far more casual playstyle), and i know a number of people that did the same. So, do remember that what you think is not necessarily how other people think as well.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    Who are the players most likely to raid? Those that like it. I did it for years, because I liked it. I had to quit because of my migraines, so I'm not inclined to do it any more, and I certainly don't need gear to make not doing it easier. But people that don't like it, they're not going to play it just because of rewards. You can't force them to play it, and there's no need to change how the gear is handled.

    Well, i did raids solely for the legendary armor (as i do not like this kind of HC content, i prefer far more casual playstyle), and i know a number of people that did the same. So, do remember that what you think is not necessarily how other people think as well.

    That's solid advice. I know lots of people that won't set foot in raids, even in guild groups, back when I was guilded here, and across 15 years of playing other MMOs with similar reward structures. Just because there are people that will doesn't mean it's what everyone thinks, and, just because some people that won't think they need an alternative method to gear up doesn't mean others do. I very obviously don't.

  • Inculpatus cedo.9234Inculpatus cedo.9234 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @WindBlade.8749 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @WindBlade.8749 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    But... It's not like open world doesn't have its own legendaries (Vision, Aurora), so since the point is that

    I think you also forgot the 37 openworld legendary weapons :) ? there is none in pvp/wvw/raids/fractals

    If you're talking weapons, that's not 100% accurate: I think you could only claim that Gen1 are actually "open world" Gen 2 require stabilized dark energy balls, which require matrices from fractals (in the very least). Also, the first 4 Gen2 legendaries also require particular fractals.

    Maybe 2.5 gen are not openworld but 2.0gen are 100% openworld, they are composed like gen1 of 3-4 long collection with only openworld stuffs in it.

    Really.... how are you getting your Gift of Battle in Open World?
    What about all the fractals?

    One can, albeit slowly, acquire Gift of Battle while never setting foot in WvW.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    Who are the players most likely to raid? Those that like it. I did it for years, because I liked it. I had to quit because of my migraines, so I'm not inclined to do it any more, and I certainly don't need gear to make not doing it easier. But people that don't like it, they're not going to play it just because of rewards. You can't force them to play it, and there's no need to change how the gear is handled.

    Well, i did raids solely for the legendary armor (as i do not like this kind of HC content, i prefer far more casual playstyle), and i know a number of people that did the same. So, do remember that what you think is not necessarily how other people think as well.

    So it worked on you, I guess mission accomplised?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2021

    @Linken.6345 said:
    So it worked on you, I guess mission accomplised?

    Did it? I'm not raiding anymore - i dropped those as soon as i obtained what i wanted. I don't play GW2 as much as before either, and those two things are very much connected.
    So, perhaps it was a shortterm gain for raids, but was it really a gain for the game? Either short or longterm? How exactly did the game profit from me playing in a content i disliked over one i liked, to the point of burnout? Because i don't really see it.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    So it worked on you, I guess mission accomplised?

    Did it? I'm not raiding anymore - i dropped those as soon as i obtained what i wanted. I don't play GW2 as much as before either, and those two things are very much connected.
    So, perhaps it was a shortterm gain for raids, but was it really a gain for the game? Either short or longterm? How exactly did the game profit from me playing in a content i disliked over one i liked, to the point of burnout? Because i don't really see it.

    It didn't, and it won't. Not all content is for everyone, but they have to try to push it because one never knows. I legit didn't think I'd like raiding, but surprise, I not only liked raiding, but loved to tank. I did it for BiS gear, and after I got hooked, I needed it, because I was going to keep doing it. Now? I don't do it any more, and I don't need the gear, and I don't believe an alternate path to that gear is "necessary".

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @WindBlade.8749 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    But... It's not like open world doesn't have its own legendaries (Vision, Aurora), so since the point is that

    I think you also forgot the 37 openworld legendary weapons :) ? there is none in pvp/wvw/raids/fractals

    Are you sure? I invite you to craft a legendary from scratch. You will need fractals - that means you have 37 Fractals Legendary weapons. You will need WvW - that means you already have 37 WvW Legendary weapons. Why do you need a Legendary weapan for PvP - there you use a predefined set of weapons" You cannot use your own. The Legendary armor for PvP was to close the mouth of the players complaining about .... the monstrous grind for skirmish tickets for WvW - "you have PvP if you don't like WvW".

    I have no objection regarding a set of legendary weapon for Raid. Except that: You can craft it once. And the drop rate for Precursors should be as in Open World. And the dropped precursors should be tradable. And if the number of tokens is high enough to need 30 weeks of complete clear of all the wings .... then I think this is a good idea.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @WindBlade.8749 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    But... It's not like open world doesn't have its own legendaries (Vision, Aurora), so since the point is that

    I think you also forgot the 37 openworld legendary weapons :) ? there is none in pvp/wvw/raids/fractals

    Are you sure? I invite you to craft a legendary from scratch. You will need fractals - that means you have 37 Fractals Legendary weapons. You will need WvW - that means you already have 37 WvW Legendary weapons. Why do you need a Legendary weapan for PvP - there you use a predefined set of weapons" You cannot use your own. The Legendary armor for PvP was to close the mouth of the players complaining about .... the monstrous grind for skirmish tickets for WvW - "you have PvP if you don't like WvW".

    I have no objection regarding a set of legendary weapon for Raid. Except that: You can craft it once. And the drop rate for Precursors should be as in Open World. And the dropped precursors should be tradable. And if the number of tokens is high enough to need 30 weeks of complete clear of all the wings .... then I think this is a good idea.

    So then pve legendary armor will need to have 15= 5 core, 5 hot, 5 pof gift of exploration for each part for a total of 90 per full set then?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    It didn't, and it won't. Not all content is for everyone, but they have to try to push it because one never knows. I legit didn't think I'd like raiding, but surprise, I not only liked raiding, but loved to tank. I did it for BiS gear, and after I got hooked, I needed it, because I was going to keep doing it. Now? I don't do it any more, and I don't need the gear, and I don't believe an alternate path to that gear is "necessary".

    For that it's enough to put the content-locked rewards shallowly. 750 LIs (and 150 LDs for ring) is way too much just to check whether someone likes raids or not. For that, even just the first tier of legendary armor collection achievement alone would have been more than sufficient.
    I knew i didn't like raids and would never "learn" to like them long before i finished the legendary set. Pushing me past that point accomplished exactly nothing positive. It only soured my whole game experience.

    Also, you may not see a problem, because you both liked raids, and don't seem to be interested in legendary armor at all. In other words, the issue never affected you personally. That does not mean it did not affect others.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @WindBlade.8749 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    But... It's not like open world doesn't have its own legendaries (Vision, Aurora), so since the point is that

    I think you also forgot the 37 openworld legendary weapons :) ? there is none in pvp/wvw/raids/fractals

    Are you sure? I invite you to craft a legendary from scratch. You will need fractals - that means you have 37 Fractals Legendary weapons. You will need WvW - that means you already have 37 WvW Legendary weapons. Why do you need a Legendary weapan for PvP - there you use a predefined set of weapons" You cannot use your own. The Legendary armor for PvP was to close the mouth of the players complaining about .... the monstrous grind for skirmish tickets for WvW - "you have PvP if you don't like WvW".

    I have no objection regarding a set of legendary weapon for Raid. Except that: You can craft it once. And the drop rate for Precursors should be as in Open World. And the dropped precursors should be tradable. And if the number of tokens is high enough to need 30 weeks of complete clear of all the wings .... then I think this is a good idea.

    So then pve legendary armor will need to have 15= 5 core, 5 hot, 5 pof gift of exploration for each part for a total of 90 per full set then?

    I think one for each piece is already too much. I consider the gift of exploration not necessary here. Because we already have to spent a gift of Battle in the weapons. This can be a good compensation. But, if this is not possible, then I think 1 is OK. Because we want an Open world armor . It is not related to any of the expansions.

    AAA - your suggestion is to have 3 sets of armors for Open World? One for Core / one for Hot / one for Pof? As we have the weapons for Hot? I agree with your suggestion.

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    It didn't, and it won't. Not all content is for everyone, but they have to try to push it because one never knows. I legit didn't think I'd like raiding, but surprise, I not only liked raiding, but loved to tank. I did it for BiS gear, and after I got hooked, I needed it, because I was going to keep doing it. Now? I don't do it any more, and I don't need the gear, and I don't believe an alternate path to that gear is "necessary".

    For that it's enough to put the content-locked rewards shallowly. 750 LIs (and 150 LDs for ring) is way too much just to check whether someone likes raids or not. For that, even just the first tier of legendary armor collection achievement alone would have been more than sufficient.
    I knew i didn't like raids and would never "learn" to like them long before i finished the legendary set. Pushing me past that point accomplished exactly nothing positive. It only soured my whole game experience.

    Also, you may not see a problem, because you both liked raids, and don't seem to be interested in legendary armor at all. In other words, the issue never affected you personally. That does not mean it did not affect others.

    More accurately, if the situation arose where I decided I wanted to go all out for BiS gear, I'd do what had to be done to get it. You see, claiming that alternate paths are necessary, the topic of the thread, is what I object to. It's not. Some people, maybe quite a few, want it, but that doesn't equate to necessary.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @WindBlade.8749 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    But... It's not like open world doesn't have its own legendaries (Vision, Aurora), so since the point is that

    I think you also forgot the 37 openworld legendary weapons :) ? there is none in pvp/wvw/raids/fractals

    Are you sure? I invite you to craft a legendary from scratch. You will need fractals - that means you have 37 Fractals Legendary weapons. You will need WvW - that means you already have 37 WvW Legendary weapons. Why do you need a Legendary weapan for PvP - there you use a predefined set of weapons" You cannot use your own. The Legendary armor for PvP was to close the mouth of the players complaining about .... the monstrous grind for skirmish tickets for WvW - "you have PvP if you don't like WvW".

    I have no objection regarding a set of legendary weapon for Raid. Except that: You can craft it once. And the drop rate for Precursors should be as in Open World. And the dropped precursors should be tradable. And if the number of tokens is high enough to need 30 weeks of complete clear of all the wings .... then I think this is a good idea.

    So then pve legendary armor will need to have 15= 5 core, 5 hot, 5 pof gift of exploration for each part for a total of 90 per full set then?

    I think one for each piece is already too much. I consider the gift of exploration not necessary here. Because we already have to spent a gift of Battle in the weapons. This can be a good compensation. But, if this is not possible, then I think 1 is OK. Because we want an Open world armor . It is not related to any of the expansions.

    AAA - your suggestion is to have 3 sets of armors for Open World? One for Core / one for Hot / one for Pof? As we have the weapons for Hot? I agree with your suggestion.

    No my suggestion was for 5 of each world exploration per piece the 4th item could be 5 world completes of cantha ( making it a true open world legendary armor) that is still not close to the same as full clearing all wings 30 weeks per weapon tho as your idea for raid legendaries.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    More accurately, if the situation arose where I decided I wanted to go all out for BiS gear, I'd do what had to be done to get it. You see, claiming that alternate paths are necessary, the topic of the thread, is what I object to. It's not. Some people, maybe quite a few, want it, but that doesn't equate to necessary.

    So, again we're back to "it's optional" argument in a game where practically everything that moves players can be considered to be optional?
    Alternate paths for legendary pve armor are no more (or less) unnecessary than its presence in raids. Or even the very existence of raid content. It's all optional. But something being optional does not mean we should not have it.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.