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A necessary improvement in preparation for the Legendary Armory

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  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    More accurately, if the situation arose where I decided I wanted to go all out for BiS gear, I'd do what had to be done to get it. You see, claiming that alternate paths are necessary, the topic of the thread, is what I object to. It's not. Some people, maybe quite a few, want it, but that doesn't equate to necessary.

    So, again we're back to "it's optional" argument in a game where practically everything that moves players can be considered to be optional?
    Alternate paths for legendary pve armor are no more (or less) unnecessary than its presence in raids. Or even the very existence of raid content. It's all optional. But something being optional does not mean we should not have it.

    It's a way for people that won't play content to get gear that comes from that content. It's unnecessary. There is nothing in overland that requires BiS anything. I don't have it, and yet, I can play all my toons in PoF and HoT maps, and not just running story, at least, all the ones that are high enough to be there. If not having this was literally locking people out of content, it would be necessary, but it's not.

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    Would you care to elaborate on that?

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Legendaries tied to specific game modes are there to drive players to play them. I don’t see this changing.

    I have a hunch that this idea will age very poorly, in about a month when the legendary for the icebrood saga comes out. There will be a new legenderay for the icebrood saga and it will definitely not be an aquabreather. If an aquabreather happens it will be in EoD, so that only really leaves more legendary trinkets.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Legendaries tied to specific game modes are there to drive players to play them. I don’t see this changing.

    I have a hunch that this idea will age very poorly, in about a month when the legendary for the icebrood saga comes out. There will be a new legenderay for the icebrood saga and it will definitely not be an aquabreather.

    I believe you missed the context of what I was saying. I wasn’t referring to legendary types. I don’t see an issue with the three game modes having a means to acquire Legendaries so long as they don’t use the existing skins. There are more specifics that I’m leaving out but that’s the gist of it.

    EDIT:

    To add more clarification as I believe my use of "legendary types" may come off confusing. I have no issue with each of the three game modes having their own set of legendary items although I do question whether it's necessary for sPvP (they have no use for them). This means that PvE, WvW, and sPvP can acquire legendary weapons, trinkets, and armor in their own game modes.

    One caveat being that they're should not compete with those of other game modes so skins should be unique (i.e. existing legendary weapon skins should not be available in the other game modes). If a game mode having a unique skin is part of its value (i.e. legendary armor), the other game modes should having "blank" legendaries, or in other words, non-unique skinned legendaries.

    The effort for the acquisition of legendary equipment should be kept similar across the three game modes. If legendary weapons are viable in WvW, the effort one would have make in PvE to acquire them should be similar to the effort required in WvW. Given the differences, and limitations of two of the game modes, this won't necessarily be easy to achieve.

    If additional legendaries are added, they should follow the same acquisition method for their given slot. This means that new legendary weapons in PvE should be acquired through open world and general PvE, new legendary trinkets in PvE should be acquired through the living story, a new legendary backpack should be acquired through fractals, etc.

    If an aquabreather happens it will be in EoD, so that only really leaves more legendary trinkets.

    Nothing about Cantha necessarily means that it will give a legendary related to underwater.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    More accurately, if the situation arose where I decided I wanted to go all out for BiS gear, I'd do what had to be done to get it. You see, claiming that alternate paths are necessary, the topic of the thread, is what I object to. It's not. Some people, maybe quite a few, want it, but that doesn't equate to necessary.

    So, again we're back to "it's optional" argument in a game where practically everything that moves players can be considered to be optional?
    Alternate paths for legendary pve armor are no more (or less) unnecessary than its presence in raids. Or even the very existence of raid content. It's all optional. But something being optional does not mean we should not have it.

    It's a way for people that won't play content to get gear that comes from that content.

    Yes. So? It being an unique reward associated with raids is a purely arbitrary choice. Somehow, WvW players, and even SPvP ones (for whom legendary gear is completely pointless) got their versions too, but the majority of PvE players didn't.

    It's unnecessary.

    Again, next to nothing in this game is necessary. Raids themselves are not necessary. It's not about it being necessary, but about it being desirable. All the rewards in this game are like this. This one is not an exception.
    Notice also, that the same argument can be used in the other direction: locking out the majority of PvE players from obtaining legendary armor is also completely unnecessary.

    There is nothing in overland that requires BiS anything. I don't have it, and yet, I can play all my toons in PoF and HoT maps, and not just running story, at least, all the ones that are high enough to be there. If not having this was literally locking people out of content, it would be necessary, but it's not.

    There's nothing in Raids that makes that armor necessary either. There's definitely nothing in SPvP that makes a legendary armor (or legenady anything) not only necessary, but even useful. And yet they are there. So, your point was?

    Again: is it necessary somehow for that armor to be locked to raids? If so, why? If not, why not allow alternate path to it?

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021

    @Katary.7096 said:

    Would you care to elaborate on that?

    Sure.

    It was a response to your statement of

    If legendary items in gw2 have been fine for over 8 years even though relatively few players are pursuing them, then this suggestion certainly isn't a "necessary preparation" for the legendary armory feature.

    I pointed out that it was a big assumption, considering that threads about legendary gear and problems some people have with them pop up on those forums on a regular basis. Thus, the response can only be to point out that big "If" on which your statement hinges on.

    In short, i don't agree that legendary gear has been perfectly fine for those 8 years. There have been multiple problems with it throughout the game history. Some have been addressed, some weren't and are still present.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    More accurately, if the situation arose where I decided I wanted to go all out for BiS gear, I'd do what had to be done to get it. You see, claiming that alternate paths are necessary, the topic of the thread, is what I object to. It's not. Some people, maybe quite a few, want it, but that doesn't equate to necessary.

    So, again we're back to "it's optional" argument in a game where practically everything that moves players can be considered to be optional?
    Alternate paths for legendary pve armor are no more (or less) unnecessary than its presence in raids. Or even the very existence of raid content. It's all optional. But something being optional does not mean we should not have it.

    It's a way for people that won't play content to get gear that comes from that content.

    Yes. So? It being an unique reward associated with raids is a purely arbitrary choice. Somehow, WvW players, and even SPvP ones (for whom legendary gear is completely pointless) got their versions too, but the majority of PvE players didn't.

    It's unnecessary.

    Again, next to nothing in this game is necessary. Raids themselves are not necessary. It's not about it being necessary, but about it being desirable. All the rewards in this game are like this. This one is not an exception.
    Notice also, that the same argument can be used in the other direction: locking out the majority of PvE players from obtaining legendary armor is also completely unnecessary.

    There is nothing in overland that requires BiS anything. I don't have it, and yet, I can play all my toons in PoF and HoT maps, and not just running story, at least, all the ones that are high enough to be there. If not having this was literally locking people out of content, it would be necessary, but it's not.

    There's nothing in Raids that makes that armor necessary either. There's definitely nothing in SPvP that makes a legendary armor (or legenady anything) not only necessary, but even useful. And yet they are there. So, your point was?

    Again: is it necessary somehow for that armor to be locked to raids? If so, why? If not, why not allow alternate path to it?

    How many threads, over the years, have we seen asking to be able to view people's gear? If you could only point to one, you would have your answer. In either case, you refute yourself in this post, and possibly others, but I didn't catch it until now, IF the gear is unnecessary to play the game, then an alternate path to it is also unnecessary.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    In either case, you refute yourself in this post, and possibly others, but I didn't catch it until now, IF the gear is unnecessary to play the game, then an alternate path to it is also unnecessary.

    Something being unnecessary does not mean it should not be made. The alternate path would be no more or less necessary than the first one is. Do you think Anet should not have put legendary armor in raids? Do you think it was a bad decision? If not, why putting one somewhere else would be different?
    So far, you are only talking about why you think the alternate path is not obligatory, but you are yet to give even one argument about why do you think introducing it would be bad for the game.

    So, again: is it necessary somehow for that armor to be locked to raids? If so, why? If not, why not allow alternate path to it? Why it should be present in raids, WvW, and (especially) SPvP, but not be available for the players that stick to the vast majority of the PvE content?

    If the strongest argument you have is "it's not necessary", then in reality you have no argument at all.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    In either case, you refute yourself in this post, and possibly others, but I didn't catch it until now, IF the gear is unnecessary to play the game, then an alternate path to it is also unnecessary.

    Something being unnecessary does not mean it should not be made. The alternate path would be no more or less necessary than the first one is. Do you think Anet should not have put legendary armor in raids? Do you think it was a bad decision? If not, why putting one somewhere else would be different?
    So far, you are only talking about why you think the alternate path is not obligatory, but you are yet to give even one argument about why do you think introducing it would be bad for the game.

    So, again: is it necessary somehow for that armor to be locked to raids? If so, why? If not, why not allow alternate path to it? Why it should be present in raids, WvW, and (especially) SPvP, but not be available for the players that stick to the vast majority of the PvE content?

    If the strongest argument you have is "it's not necessary", then in reality you have no argument at all.

    Actually, it's the best possible argument. Why spend the time/money developing something that isn't needed? I get that it's inconvenient, but as you say yourself, it's not required to have this gear for anything in game. Since that is your stated position, then there is absolutely no reason to spend developer resources on creating alternative paths to something that nobody needs. As I said, if one could document that the lack of that gear is, mechanically, locking them out of content, then yeah, we could probably use an alternative path to getting it. Since it doesn't, however...

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    Actually, it's the best possible argument. Why spend the time/money developing something that isn't needed?

    If we were following that kind of thinking, we would not have most of the features and content of this game. Many of the features this game had on launch, and most of the changes done later weren't truly necessary. It does not mean they should not have been implemented, though.

    That's a failure in your reasoning - most inventions and changes for the better in human history were not a matter of necessity, but of convenience, comfort and desires. If we only followed what was necessary, we would still be sitting around fire in a cave. And someone would complain that neither fire or the cave were necessary.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    Actually, it's the best possible argument. Why spend the time/money developing something that isn't needed?

    If we were following that kind of thinking, we would not have most of the features and content of this game. Many of the features this game had on launch, and most of the changes done later weren't truly necessary. It does not mean they should not have been implemented, though.

    That's a failure in your reasoning - most inventions and changes for the better in human history were not a matter of necessity, but of convenience, comfort and desires. If we only followed what was necessary, we would still be sitting around fire in a cave. And someone would complain that neither fire or the cave were necessary.

    Nope, it's not a flaw in my reasoning. There's a difference between "it would be nice to have this" and "we need this". Reading the topic title, and your subsequent responses, it's not a case of "it would be nice to have it", but a case of "but we need it". Why? The lack of it does not lock anyone out of content, you've already stated as much. Since this is true, then it's not "needed", but "wanted", and that doesn't mean it should be added. As to all of the other stuff that was added that wasn't "needed", or wasn't necessary, it added to their bottom line in the case of cosmetics or expansions, which means that they needed it, even if we didn't.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    Nope, it's not a flaw in my reasoning. There's a difference between "it would be nice to have this" and "we need this". Reading the topic title, and your subsequent responses, it's not a case of "it would be nice to have it", but a case of "but we need it". Why? The lack of it does not lock anyone out of content, you've already stated as much. Since this is true, then it's not "needed", but "wanted", and that doesn't mean it should be added. As to all of the other stuff that was added that wasn't "needed", or wasn't necessary, it added to their bottom line in the case of cosmetics or expansions, which means that they needed it, even if we didn't.

    Oh, but it was because there were people that wanted it implemented. Just like there are people that want the alternate PvE legendary to be implemented. There's no difference here.

    So, you can just treat adding an alternate version of the armor to "add to their bottom line" in about the same way as adding the raid version did. If it was okay to introduce a raid version, it should be equally okay to introduce a non-raid one. Nothing you said so far pointed otherwise.

    Or, to put it differently: how exactly is legendary armor different than legendary weapons in that regard?

    So far all your argument is about is "they should not waste resources on it, because i, personally, don't care about it". There's nothing more to it.
    (although you are surprisingly very vocal against this for someone that just doesn't care - is there a reason you've not mentioned why you are so opposed to it being implemented?)

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    Nope, it's not a flaw in my reasoning. There's a difference between "it would be nice to have this" and "we need this". Reading the topic title, and your subsequent responses, it's not a case of "it would be nice to have it", but a case of "but we need it". Why? The lack of it does not lock anyone out of content, you've already stated as much. Since this is true, then it's not "needed", but "wanted", and that doesn't mean it should be added. As to all of the other stuff that was added that wasn't "needed", or wasn't necessary, it added to their bottom line in the case of cosmetics or expansions, which means that they needed it, even if we didn't.

    Oh, but it was because there were people that wanted it implemented. Just like there are people that want the alternate PvE legendary to be implemented. There's no difference here.

    So, you can just treat adding an alternate version of the armor to "add to their bottom line" in about the same way as adding the raid version did. If it was okay to introduce a raid version, it should be equally okay to introduce a non-raid one. Nothing you said so far pointed otherwise.

    Or, to put it differently: how exactly is legendary armor different than legendary weapons in that regard?

    So far all your argument is about is "they should not waste resources on it, because i, personally, don't care about it". There's nothing more to it.
    (although you are surprisingly very vocal against this for someone that just doesn't care - is there a reason you've not mentioned why you are so opposed to it being implemented?)

    So they're going to add this to the Cash Shop, or otherwise monetize it? Won't that make the game P2W then? If not, it's not going to add significantly to their bottom line, because all the people that want this, are playing now.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    So they're going to add this to the Cash Shop, or otherwise monetize it? Won't that make the game P2W then? If not, it's not going to add significantly to their bottom line, because all the people that want this, are playing now.

    How did adding legendary armor to raids add to their bottom line? How did adding it to SPvP did the same? How did introducing second generation of legendary weapons add to their bottom line? Notice, none of those were added to cash shop and monetized, and all of those were offered for people that were already playing.
    So, how adding an open world legendary armor would be different from those?

    And, again, why are you so dead set against it, if it's only because "it's unnecessary"?

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    So they're going to add this to the Cash Shop, or otherwise monetize it? Won't that make the game P2W then? If not, it's not going to add significantly to their bottom line, because all the people that want this, are playing now.

    How did adding legendary armor to raids add to their bottom line? How did adding it to SPvP did the same? How did introducing second generation of legendary weapons add to their bottom line? Notice, none of those were added to cash shop and monetized, and all of those were offered for people that were already playing.
    So, how adding an open world legendary armor would be different from those?

    And, again, why are you so dead set against it, if it's only because "it's unnecessary"?

    Because I'm in a thread telling me that it's necessary. I'm in a protracted discussion with someone telling me that it's necessary, even though the gear isn't needed for any content, which I know to be true. So telling me that an alternate path to something I don't need is necessary does not compute. Maybe I'm just old school, and believe that if something is worth having, it's worth putting in the work to get it?

    I wonder, though, how many people played longer than they might have, due to gear being a carrot in raiding or other areas, especially if they were already interested in these activities, but had no clear goals for continuing to do them? Most progression raiding systems are done for BiS gear, that is needed for the hardest tier. So people do it to get that gear. I used to be one of those. That does make people play longer, and in some games, either buy account unlocks, swtor, for example, or keep paying their sub for better access to the content. So how many people played longer than they might have, and bought character slots, or bank/bag space, or some cosmetics that they wouldn't have otherwise purchased, because they wanted that BiS gear for Fractals?

  • Manasa Devi.7958Manasa Devi.7958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    PvE needs long-term objectives that feel like advancement. Advancement that's more significant than just watching a number (AP) go up. You can argue whether or not legendary armor is something that qualifies as a worthy long term goal to be added, but it sure seems like a more interesting objective than yet another weapon set, or just farming gold to buy cosmetic infusions.

    As for myself, I'd like to see PvE legendary armor, because I'd like a third set to complete all 3 weights. I'm not going to get that 3rd set any other way, I currently have no interest anymore in doing more than the occasional PvE.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    Because I'm in a thread telling me that it's necessary.

    You are not arguing with the thread however. You are arguing with people that tell you that this may not be strictly necessary, but still nice to have. And your response is "but you should not get it, because I 'm not interested in it"

    I'm in a protracted discussion with someone telling me that it's necessary, even though the gear isn't needed for any content, which I know to be true. So telling me that an alternate path to something I don't need is necessary does not compute.

    And here is the core of the issue i have with your argumentation. You don't need it, therefore noone shall have it.
    Frankly, if it's just about you not needing it, why do you care if the alternate option is made or not? Would introducing it hurt you in any way?

    Maybe I'm just old school, and believe that if something is worth having, it's worth putting in the work to get it?

    The "old school" hardcore players that view and value something that should be first and foremost fun and entertaining solely by how much effort they need to put in it (regardless if that work even makes sense), and treat it as a second job, are a minority now. In fact, i don't think they were in a majority even during those "old times" either - there always were casuals, and they always outnumbered the hardcores. The only change since then is that the ratio got even more skewed towards casual players now.

    It doesn't matter if something is "worth putting the work to get it" or not, if the work itself makes no sense. People should be playing raids because they like that type of content. Not because they have been paid off for it. It's not a job, it's a game. It's supposed to be fun.

    I wonder, though, how many people played longer than they might have, due to gear being a carrot in raiding or other areas, especially if they were already interested in these activities, but had no clear goals for continuing to do them? Most progression raiding systems are done for BiS gear, that is needed for the hardest tier. So people do it to get that gear. I used to be one of those. That does make people play longer, and in some games, either buy account unlocks, swtor, for example, or keep paying their sub for better access to the content. So how many people played longer than they might have, and bought character slots, or bank/bag space, or some cosmetics that they wouldn't have otherwise purchased, because they wanted that BiS gear for Fractals?

    You don't know. Just as you don't know how many people stopped playing/buying stuff due to burnout that came from farming for something they wanted in a content they hated. I do know that it worked like that for me and a number of people i know, at least.

    Remember, though, that ultimately Anet ended up considering raids to not be a good return for effort put, since they cancelled them.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There already is a PvE legendary armor set...

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There already is a PvE legendary armor set...

    Theoretically, sure. In practice, though, it's obtainable through niche content that lies outside what huge majority of PvE players do.

    In th end i's a Raid armor, not PvE one. Because while pve encompasses raids, raids cover only a small sliver of pve.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Excursion.9752Excursion.9752 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I am one of those who used to complain about this very thing. (Oh the shame) But the main reason I complained was because I had a lack of time and I was unfamiliar with the other game modes. So time and ignorance were my faults. It was not anyone else's problem by my own. Sure I was not good at WvW or PvP and I had no one to raid with. But I worked at it and made like minded friends. Friends that were I was at in my conquest. I personally wanted to get all the legendary armor (1 set of each) and jewelry items for my account.

    Today I have done just that. In under two years I have obtained a decently High rank in both WvW and PvP and have a good amount of raid finishes. The most intimidating thing to me and some of my friends was the 20 Tournament wins in PvP. The truth of the matter it was not that bad. It does take time but everything worth getting in this game does.

    But when it comes down to it people need to stop making excuses or work a rounds for things that are hard to get. The truth of the matter if they took the same energy that it takes to complain and look for ways around the problem and applied it to actually working towards their goal you probably be pretty far into their task by now.

    Haters gonna hate. People will complain about you. People will offer you advice. And the vast majority while people will have their fun but they will be helpful. Everything in life is about how you react to situations and criticisms. Are you going to run or are you going to adapt keep pushing on. I hope you keep pushing on because it feels pretty good when you do something you thought you couldn't do.

                                                              There is a 50% chance you will not agree with me and a 50% chance I will not agree with you
    
  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There already is a PvE legendary armor set...

    Theoretically, sure. In practice, though, it's obtainable through niche content that lies outside what huge majority of PvE players do.

    In th end i's a Raid armor, not PvE one. Because while pve encompasses raids, raids cover only a small sliver of pve.

    Raids are PvE. It’d be no different if legendary armor were only available in dungeons or fractals. Just because it’s not in a game mode that you play, does this mean that it’s not PvE.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Excursion.9752 said:
    But when it comes down to it people need to stop making excuses or work a rounds for things that are hard to get. The truth of the matter if they took the same energy that it takes to complain and look for ways around the problem and applied it to actually working towards their goal you probably be pretty far into their task by now.

    Haters gonna hate. People will complain about you. People will offer you advice. And the vast majority while people will have their fun but they will be helpful. Everything in life is about how you react to situations and criticisms. Are you going to run or are you going to adapt keep pushing on. I hope you keep pushing on because it feels pretty good when you do something you thought you couldn't do.

    You might have missed the part where i have pointed out that i already obtained that armor. Didn't stop me from complaining, because (unlike in your case, as it seems) i'm not judging it solely based on my personal needs.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Raids are PvE. It’d be no different if legendary armor were only available in dungeons or fractals. Just because it’s not in a game mode that you play, does this mean that it’s not PvE.

    Raids are indeed a part of a PvE, but a very small one - and they are not a content that is representative of that mode. In fact, they are very, very far from that point.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Raids are PvE. It’d be no different if legendary armor were only available in dungeons or fractals. Just because it’s not in a game mode that you play, does this mean that it’s not PvE.

    Raids are indeed a part of a PvE, but a very small one - and they are not a content that is representative of that mode.

    Raids are PvE content. Legendary armor is obtainable through raids. Therefore, legendary armor is obtainable in PvE. I doubt we’d be having this discussion if they were only available through fractals and fractals are niche compared to generic open world.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    It occurred to me that as it stands for legendaries, outside of legendary weapons, there's a lot of requiring people to invest very hard into particular game types for the given legendary.

    The good thing is: you don't need to have every item being of legendary rarity, nor will the use of the Legendary Armory require you to have 100% legendary equipment (if it will that would be downright ridiculous). I assume it will be just another equipment storage that will be accessible accountwide.

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    Because I'm in a thread telling me that it's necessary.

    You are not arguing with the thread however. You are arguing with people that tell you that this may not be strictly necessary, but still nice to have. And your response is "but you should not get it, because I 'm not interested in it"

    I'm in a protracted discussion with someone telling me that it's necessary, even though the gear isn't needed for any content, which I know to be true. So telling me that an alternate path to something I don't need is necessary does not compute.

    And here is the core of the issue i have with your argumentation. You don't need it, therefore noone shall have it.
    Frankly, if it's just about you not needing it, why do you care if the alternate option is made or not? Would introducing it hurt you in any way?

    Maybe I'm just old school, and believe that if something is worth having, it's worth putting in the work to get it?

    The "old school" hardcore players that view and value something that should be first and foremost fun and entertaining solely by how much effort they need to put in it (regardless if that work even makes sense), and treat it as a second job, are a minority now. In fact, i don't think they were in a majority even during those "old times" either - there always were casuals, and they always outnumbered the hardcores. The only change since then is that the ratio got even more skewed towards casual players now.

    It doesn't matter if something is "worth putting the work to get it" or not, if the work itself makes no sense. People should be playing raids because they like that type of content. Not because they have been paid off for it. It's not a job, it's a game. It's supposed to be fun.

    I wonder, though, how many people played longer than they might have, due to gear being a carrot in raiding or other areas, especially if they were already interested in these activities, but had no clear goals for continuing to do them? Most progression raiding systems are done for BiS gear, that is needed for the hardest tier. So people do it to get that gear. I used to be one of those. That does make people play longer, and in some games, either buy account unlocks, swtor, for example, or keep paying their sub for better access to the content. So how many people played longer than they might have, and bought character slots, or bank/bag space, or some cosmetics that they wouldn't have otherwise purchased, because they wanted that BiS gear for Fractals?

    You don't know. Just as you don't know how many people stopped playing/buying stuff due to burnout that came from farming for something they wanted in a content they hated. I do know that it worked like that for me and a number of people i know, at least.

    Remember, though, that ultimately Anet ended up considering raids to not be a good return for effort put, since they cancelled them.

    Herein lies the problem. It's a case of "but I don't want to do this, so there should be an alternate path to get it". It's like trying to say that Raiding isn't really PvE, right?

  • Luthan.5236Luthan.5236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They could make lengthy PvE achievements similar ot the ones for the trinkets from the living world stories (Aurora, Visions) for the armor maybe. But for stuff that actually needs you to play more than 1 game mode I do not expect any changes. (+ the PvE part here is not too hard and more like a grind I think).

    I think it is for the weapons - where they are expensive (I do not have one yet) and need you to play more than just PvE. (But at least for certain PvE stuff ... if it needs dungeon currency for some gift ... there are the vouchers you easily can get from festival events.)

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    Herein lies the problem. It's a case of "but I don't want to do this, so there should be an alternate path to get it".

    More like "i think that Raids were a really bad place to content-lock it, so we might as well try to fix it"

    And i have already gotten mine, thank you very much. I still think alternate path is a very good idea, and that limiting it to an extremely niche content most pve players will never touch was a really bad one.

    There's no point in defending status quo if that status quo is not so good in the first place. And doing that without consideration only stifles progress and improvement.

    It's like trying to say that Raiding isn't really PvE, right?

    Raiding is about as much the same type of content as the majority of GW2's PvE as WvW is the same type of content that SPvP is. WvW and SPvP are the same mode (PvP), but are treated like two different ones, because they appeal to different groups of players. Same with Raids and the majority of GW2's PvE - you might call them the same mode, but in truth they are quite separated. With the difference being that WvW and SPvP are probably comparable in size, while Raids are a very narrow niche.

    But you missed the point here as well. It's not like Raids are not PvE. It's that Raid Armor is not really the PvE armor. In the same way as, say, the US Congress is not the World Congress, even if USA are part of the world (or, to make that point even more visible, change USA to Guatemala).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    Herein lies the problem. It's a case of "but I don't want to do this, so there should be an alternate path to get it".

    More like "i think that Raids were a really bad place to content-lock it, so we might as well try to fix it"

    And i have already gotten mine, thank you very much. I still think alternate path is a very good idea, and that limiting it to an extremely niche content most pve players will never touch was a really bad one.

    There's no point in defending status quo if that status quo is not so good in the first place. And doing that without consideration only stifles progress and improvement.

    It's like trying to say that Raiding isn't really PvE, right?

    Raiding is about as much the same type of content as the majority of GW2's PvE as WvW is the same type of content that SPvP is. WvW and SPvP are the same mode (PvP), but are treated like two different ones, because they appeal to different groups of players. Same with Raids and the majority of GW2's PvE - you might call them the same mode, but in truth they are quite separated. With the difference being that WvW and SPvP are probably comparable in size, while Raids are a very narrow niche.

    But you missed the point here as well. It's not like Raids are not PvE. It's that Raid Armor is not really the PvE armor. In the same way as, say, the US Congress is not the World Congress, even if USA are part of the world (or, to make that point even more visible, change USA to Guatemala).

    um, yeah... P(layer)v(ersus)E(nvironment)... You have yours once? How many alts are you "needing" an alternate path on?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    But you missed the point here as well. It's not like Raids are not PvE. It's that Raid Armor is not really the PvE armor. In the same way as, say, the US Congress is not the World Congress, even if USA are part of the world (or, to make that point even more visible, change USA to Guatemala).

    um, yeah... P(layer)v(ersus)E(nvironment)...

    So, US Congress in your mind is the Congress of the World? Why i am not surprised...

    You have yours once? How many alts are you "needing" an alternate path on?

    None. Unlike you, i am not basing my arguments on my personal needs only.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    Are you sure? I invite you to craft a legendary from scratch. You will need fractals - that means you have 37 Fractals Legendary weapons. You will need WvW - that means you already have 37 WvW Legendary weapons. Why do you need a Legendary weapan for PvP - there you use a predefined set of weapons" You cannot use your own. The Legendary armor for PvP was to close the mouth of the players complaining about .... the monstrous grind for skirmish tickets for WvW - "you have PvP if you don't like WvW".

    To be fair I don't recall much of fractal involvement in my Flameseeker Prophecies craft I did recently... there were like 3 or 4 of them needed but only because I decided to craft the precursor instead of flat out buying one. Is that some gen2 thing? ;)

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:
    To be fair I don't recall much of fractal involvement in my Flameseeker Prophecies craft I did recently... there were like 3 or 4 of them needed but only because I decided to craft the precursor instead of flat out buying one. Is that some gen2 thing? ;)

    Like you said - it's when you want to craft the precursor instead of buying it. And gen2 precursors cannot be bought or dropped.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    But you missed the point here as well. It's not like Raids are not PvE. It's that Raid Armor is not really the PvE armor. In the same way as, say, the US Congress is not the World Congress, even if USA are part of the world (or, to make that point even more visible, change USA to Guatemala).

    um, yeah... P(layer)v(ersus)E(nvironment)...

    So, US Congress in your mind is the Congress of the World? Why i am not surprised...

    You have yours once? How many alts are you "needing" an alternate path on?

    None. Unlike you, i am not basing my arguments on my personal needs only.

    I see...

    I'm actually basing it off what you have said, and my own experience with the game. That is, after all, how people reach their conclusions about what is necessary or not.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    You have yours once? How many alts are you "needing" an alternate path on?

    None. Unlike you, i am not basing my arguments on my personal needs only.

    I see...

    I'm actually basing it off what you have said, and my own experience with the game. That is, after all, how people reach their conclusions about what is necessary or not.

    Then apparently our experiences were different in this case. Also, you might want to reread what i said, because you obviously didn't base that sentence i was responding to on any statement of mine. You were basing it on your unfounded and untrue assumptions of me.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    You have yours once? How many alts are you "needing" an alternate path on?

    None. Unlike you, i am not basing my arguments on my personal needs only.

    I see...

    I'm actually basing it off what you have said, and my own experience with the game. That is, after all, how people reach their conclusions about what is necessary or not.

    Then apparently our experiences were different in this case. Also, you might want to reread what i said, because you obviously didn't base that sentence i was responding to on any statement of mine. You were basing it on your unfounded and untrue assumptions of me.

    Well, considering your comment about my believing that the US Congress is the Congress of the world, it would be really easy to "misinterpret" what you said. But let's see, "Raids are PvE just like WvW is PvP". Hmm, I wonder, how could I misinterpret that? Since raids are very literally players versus the environment, claiming they're not really PvE is pretty hard to misinterpret as well. Maybe you meant that I misinterpreted your "we don't need the gear for any content"? So you meant what, exactly, if it's not a literal translation of "we don't need it"? Seems like that would be pretty hard to misinterpret too. So no, I don't think I misinterpreted anything you said. I think it's a pretty convenient argument for "well, I shouldn't have said that" though. You see, I'm not making any judgement calls on you. I'm reading what you type, and responding to it. No assumptions needed, and the one time I typed something that could be assumed to be an assumption, was asking a direct question, which means that I didn't know the answer, and didn't assume one. So again, not sure what you're on about, unless it's frustration that you can't persuade me around to your way of thinking.

    As I've said, if we were locked out of story content for lack of this gear, then there's something that needs to be fixed. Now, you have stated that we don't need the gear for that, and I agree, we don't, and I know it to be true because I play the content w/out it, so I can't be confusing anything there either. What you're lobbying for is desired, but it is not necessary, contrary to the thread's intent, and what you're trying to push here.

  • Gotejjeken.1267Gotejjeken.1267 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021

    I don't understand the topic. I see WvW mentioned a lot but don't see it as a grind--I'm only rank 800 and a couple hundred ranks before that (rank 5-600) I had enough skirmish tickets and such for a full set of legendary armor. But I enjoy the mode, and do lament it has a worse skin than raids--I don't even use the skin at all.

    I find PvE more of a grind, have to play hours of story missions to get a chance at some basic stuff like ascended mat eaters. Not only that but have to finish some grueling tasks (i.e. chalice of tears) which WvW has no equivalent to. Add in all the mastery tracks you need to grind out to do anything (i.e. gliding / mounts) and it's a big time investment.

    But, I don't see why you need any of it anyway though, outside of the 'hardcore' content of raids and fractals. If you are doing those you probably enjoy them (like I do WvW) and aren't here complaining about it. Open world stuff has been runnable by literally any stat combo since the game launched--any hard events you have an entire mob to carry you.

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Sure.

    Thanks.

    I pointed out that it was a big assumption, considering that threads about legendary gear and problems some people have with them pop up on those forums on a regular basis. Thus, the response can only be to point out that big "If" on which your statement hinges on.

    There are certainly people who have one issue or another with the legendary items in gw2. No matter which subject you pick you will always find someone who has a problem with it. As such I would not suggest to use that as a metric. Do the developers consider the system to be flawed? Is fixing it a high priority?

    In short, i don't agree that legendary gear has been perfectly fine for those 8 years. There have been multiple problems with it throughout the game history. Some have been addressed, some weren't and are still present.

    Of course legendary gear isn't perfect, almost nothing is. The current system is fine, it is functional, it does what it is supposed to do. Please name the problems, explain why they are problems and how some were solved.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021

    @Katary.7096 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    In short, i don't agree that legendary gear has been perfectly fine for those 8 years. There have been multiple problems with it throughout the game history. Some have been addressed, some weren't and are still present.

    Of course legendary gear isn't perfect, almost nothing is. The current system is fine, it is functional, it does what it is supposed to do. Please name the problems, explain why they are problems and how some were solved.

    First problem that surfaced was the stat issue - originally, legendaries had fixed stats, and to change them you had to transmute the looks of the legendary on an exotic item with the right stats (which destroyed the legendary in the process). The legendary destruction during transmutation issue has been fixed with the wardrobe system, and the stat issue with the stat-switching QoL feature on legendaries.

    Second problem that was addressed was the precursor availability. People didn't like that there wasn't really any reliable way of obtaining precursors with their own effort. You could only either hope for RNG to smile your way, or bypass the whole system via buying one off TP. Thus, the precursor crafting system was made.

    Another of the original issues was about people being able to buy the complete legendaries off TP. Quite a number of players didn't like that and were saying that it cheapens the legendaries. Anet's way to solve this (without at the same time annoying those that liked this feature) was to introduce the second generation of legendary weapons, that could be obtained only by collections and crafting, and could not be bought.

    This however caused another, unintended problem - the cost of creating legendary collections ended up too great for Anet, so they eventually decided to scrap the idea after only 4 of the gen2 weapons were released.

    They solved that issue by introducing so called gen 2.5, that no longer required collections gen2-style, being based completely around crafting. This however again reintroduced the issue of it being centered primarily around TP (which, again, in the eyes of many players sort of cheapened the end result)

    And then there was a shift in the direction of legendary creation, where it became impossible to obtain full legendary set without absolutely massive investments of time and effort in at least one type of content that is either niche, or at least vastly different from the one you usually play in. Which is doubly visible for armor, which is obtainable only through niche content that is outside the scope of interest of huge majority of players.
    Sure, not everyone acknowledges that this is an issue, but not acknowledging it does not mean it does not exist.

    Ah, and of course there's an issue with how legendary gear interacts with build templates, which is something that supposedly should be fixed in the future by the introduction of legendary armory. We're yet to see if the armory will introduce any issues of its own.

    Then, the issue that at least some of the legendary trinkets and backpacks can only be crafted once, which prevents you from decking multiple characters in legendary gear. That one also might be addressed by legendary armory when (if) it gets done.

    And, while minor, there are still issues with the looks of envoy armor, with many glitches and dying problems that have been acknowledged, were meant to be fixed, but were ultimately never addressed.

    Basically, there was no point in history when there wasn't some issue with legendaries.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    First problem that surfaced was the stat issue - originally, legendaries had fixed stats, and to change them you had to transmute the looks of the legendary on an exotic item with the right stats (which destroyed the legendary in the process). The legendary destruction during transmutation issue has been fixed with the wardrobe system, and the stat issue with the stat-switching QoL feature on legendaries.

    The original legendary weapons were essentially the gw2 version of gw1's obsidian armor. The only thing that was special about them was the skin (apart from the price tag) and you got to keep the skin even though you destroyed the item during the transmutation process. From the perspective of what legendary items are today that would be a problem, but back in the day the only point in getting a legendary was cosmetic.

    Second problem that was addressed was the precursor availability. People didn't like that there wasn't really any reliable way of obtaining precursors with their own effort. You could only either hope for RNG to smile your way, or bypass the whole system via buying one off TP. Thus, the precursor crafting system was made.

    You forgot to mention that the precursor crafting system had its fair share of critics as well. The most frequently made point was that some precursors were more expensive to acquire by way of the collection system than simply buying them on the trading post. In solving this problem the developers created a new one, potentially multiple new ones. Remember when some collections required the failure of certain open world event chains?

    Another of the original issues was about people being able to buy the complete legendaries off TP. Quite a number of players didn't like that and were saying that it cheapens the legendaries. Anet's way to solve this (without at the same time annoying those that liked this feature) was to introduce the second generation of legendary weapons, that could be obtained only by collections and crafting, and could not be bought.

    That is not a solution. The people who dislike the ability to buy legendaries on the trading post can point to the generation one weapons and say: "The problem is still there." Meanwhile those who like the fact that legendaries can be purchased off the trading post will look at all the other legendary items, pointing out that Anet invented a problem which previously did not exist.

    This however caused another, unintended problem - the cost of creating legendary collections ended up too great for Anet, so they eventually decided to scrap the idea after only 4 of the gen2 weapons were released.
    They solved that issue by introducing so called gen 2.5, that no longer required collections gen2-style, being based completely around crafting. This however again reintroduced the issue of it being centered primarily around TP (which, again, in the eyes of many players sort of cheapened the end result)

    And in the eyes of other players it addressed a problem which Anet had newly introduced.

    And then there was a shift in the direction of legendary creation, where it became impossible to obtain full legendary set without absolutely massive investments of time and effort in at least one type of content that is either niche, or at least vastly different from the one you usually play in. Which is doubly visible for armor, which is obtainable only through niche content that is outside the scope of interest of huge majority of players.

    Whereas previously getting a full set of legendary items was impossible because the game did not have enough legendary items for players to craft. Was that an issue with the system?

    Sure, not everyone acknowledges that this is an issue, but not acknowledging it does not mean it does not exist.

    Pretending that it exists when it does not is not one iota better.

    Ah, and of course there's an issue with how legendary gear interacts with build templates, which is something that supposedly should be fixed in the future by the introduction of legendary armory. We're yet to see if the armory will introduce any issues of its own.

    Is that an issue with the legendary items or with the "build templates" simply not being as good as they could/ should have been?

    Then, the issue that at least some of the legendary trinkets and backpacks can only be crafted once, which prevents you from decking multiple characters in legendary gear. That one also might be addressed by legendary armory when (if) it gets done.

    Yeah, no good reason why you can only make one per account. Gen one weapons never had that restriction.

    And, while minor, there are still issues with the looks of envoy armor, with many glitches and dying problems that have been acknowledged, were meant to be fixed, but were ultimately never addressed.

    That ship has sailed.

    Basically, there was no point in history when there wasn't some issue with legendaries.

    Then it's a good thing that no one made the claim that legendaries have always been flawless.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Katary.7096 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Basically, there was no point in history when there wasn't some issue with legendaries.

    Then it's a good thing that no one made the claim that legendaries have always been flawless.

    Flawless? No. However, the statement this whole discussion goes back to was that:

    @Katary.7096 said:
    If legendary items in gw2 have been fine for over 8 years

    And the response was that no, they were not fine for 8 years, there have always been issues. In fact, in your post above you even acknowledged it.

    Those 8 years are full of many (both minor and major) issues with legendaries.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You try run faster than train but not see rails.
    Explanation why it is:
    Why you sure that wvw or spvp legendary armor can be added in leg armory ? =)
    I am not sure.
    At first look on Legendary Armorer achievement
    Bind 18 unique legendary armor pieces .. I have a lot of legendary armor parts, and still have 0/18 on this achievement ..

    And I am ready that all my spvp and wvw set is not valid for leg. armory.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    You try run faster than train but not see rails.
    Explanation why it is:
    Why you sure that wvw or spvp legendary armor can be added in leg armory ? =)
    I am not sure.
    At first look on Legendary Armorer achievement
    Bind 18 unique legendary armor pieces .. I have a lot of legendary armor parts, and still have 0/18 on this achievement ..

    And I am ready that all my spvp and wvw set is not valid for leg. armory.

    That achievement was made specificaly for raid legendary armor skins so no other armor skins will count for it.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:
    That achievement was made specificaly for raid legendary armor skins so no other armor skins will count for it.

    so one legendary not equal some another legendary ..
    This achievement is only abstract example for understanding: that may be only raid armor can be added in armory
    And till relize no one can't say that this is true or not. We don't know.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Sylvyn.4750Sylvyn.4750 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Legendaries tied to specific game modes are there to drive players to play them. I don’t see this changing.

    And yet the irony is that one of those modes they drive people to play, WvW, has largely been ignored by the devs for new content, maps and other necessary changes to improve player experience, other than nerfing some classes to the ground and leaving other overperforming classes untouched. I don't see this changing, sadly, hence the ever present requests to skip WvW in the legendary process.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sylvyn.4750 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Legendaries tied to specific game modes are there to drive players to play them. I don’t see this changing.

    And yet the irony is that one of those modes they drive people to play, WvW, has largely been ignored by the devs for new content, maps and other necessary changes to improve player experience, other than nerfing some classes to the ground and leaving other overperforming classes untouched. I don't see this changing, sadly, hence the ever present requests to skip WvW in the legendary process.

    I don't see how the lack of WvW specific updates has anything to do with the legendary process. They're unrelated.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Sylvyn.4750 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Legendaries tied to specific game modes are there to drive players to play them. I don’t see this changing.

    And yet the irony is that one of those modes they drive people to play, WvW, has largely been ignored by the devs for new content, maps and other necessary changes to improve player experience, other than nerfing some classes to the ground and leaving other overperforming classes untouched. I don't see this changing, sadly, hence the ever present requests to skip WvW in the legendary process.

    I don't see how the lack of WvW specific updates has anything to do with the legendary process. They're unrelated.

    The point i guess would be that instead of trying to use rewards to bait players into a content they're going to abandon anyway due to the general neglect, it would probably have been better to increase the interest in the content itself by actually putting some effort into it. And it's especially bad to bait players in the content that is basically abandoned by devs.

    If the devs are not interested in putting any resources into improving the content, they should not pretend to care by still pushing players from other content types into it. It won't help the content anyway.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Sylvyn.4750 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Legendaries tied to specific game modes are there to drive players to play them. I don’t see this changing.

    And yet the irony is that one of those modes they drive people to play, WvW, has largely been ignored by the devs for new content, maps and other necessary changes to improve player experience, other than nerfing some classes to the ground and leaving other overperforming classes untouched. I don't see this changing, sadly, hence the ever present requests to skip WvW in the legendary process.

    I don't see how the lack of WvW specific updates has anything to do with the legendary process. They're unrelated.

    The point i guess would be that instead of trying to use rewards to bait players into a content they're going to abandon anyway due to the general neglect, it would probably have been better to increase the interest in the content itself by actually putting some effort into it. And it's especially bad to bait players in the content that is basically abandoned by devs.

    If the devs are not interested in putting any resources into improving the content, they should not pretend to care by still pushing players from other content types into it. It won't help the content anyway.

    Someone doing the reward track today wouldn’t be all that different from several years ago nor would it likely be any different a year from now. Whether the WvW is abandoned or not doesn’t matter. Dungeons were abandoned like 7 years ago but we don’t see people calling for dungeon token gifts to be removed under that reason.

    This is simply people grasping at whatever reasons they can come up with to back up their claim that they shouldn’t have to do content which they do not like in order to obtain something in that game mode.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Someone doing the reward track today wouldn’t be all that different from several years ago nor would it likely be any different a year from now. Whether the WvW is abandoned or not doesn’t matter. Dungeons were abandoned like 7 years ago but we don’t see people calling for dungeon token gifts to be removed under that reason.

    Maybe it wouldn't seem different, but what's the point of it now anyway? The truth is that devs no longer care about driving players into said content. If they truly cared, they would have put more effort into said content long ago (in case of WvW), or would not flat out officially abandon it (in case of dungeons). The main reason why those "bait rewards" still remain as they were is probably because the devs don't even care about adjusting their accessibility.

    In general, i agree that GoB is not that bad - it requires very shallow dipping into the content, and can practically be soloed (or half-soloed, half-afked), so it is something that can for the most part be ignored even by many players that dislike WvW specifically or PvP in general. Still, the meaning behind placement of those rewards is already lost - it disappeared together with the willingness of devs to support the content.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Someone doing the reward track today wouldn’t be all that different from several years ago nor would it likely be any different a year from now. Whether the WvW is abandoned or not doesn’t matter. Dungeons were abandoned like 7 years ago but we don’t see people calling for dungeon token gifts to be removed under that reason.

    Maybe it wouldn't seem different, but what's the point of it now anyway? The truth is that devs no longer care about driving players into said content. If they truly cared, they would have put more effort into said content long ago (in case of WvW), or would not flat out officially abandon it (in case of dungeons). The main reason why those "bait rewards" still remain as they were is probably because the devs don't even care about adjusting their accessibility.

    In general, i agree that GoB is not that bad - it requires very shallow dipping into the content, and can practically be soloed (or half-soloed, half-afked), so it is something that can for the most part be ignored even by many players that dislike WvW specifically or PvP in general. Still, the meaning behind placement of those rewards is already lost - it disappeared together with the willingness of devs to support the content.

    It still doesn’t matter whether the content is abandoned or not.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It still doesn’t matter whether the content is abandoned or not.

    Maybe it doesn't matter to you, but it does matter when we consider the purpose you claimed those rewards have.

    Legendaries tied to specific game modes are there to drive players to play them.

    Driving players to a specific mode is important to devs only if they still care about the content being played. If they abandoned said content, it means they no longer care about it. Thus, that original purpose suddenly becomes meaningless. It basically no longer exists.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.