If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?

Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

I have an idea, I'm sure it'll get torn to shreds because people who actually profit from raids right now will lose something, so if you criticize my post, you need to post how you'd fix them. Almost every effective MMO out there uses them to bring people together and do them together, so there's definitely a core design flaw.

I can identify two issues:

1) There's no incentive for grouping with new people - the rewards only come faster the more experienced your group
2) The scale sucks. 10 man raids don't involve many people, so they're not truly a guild-level activity. Raids are supposed to be.

Here's the idea: move most of the rewards to guild missions tied to them: Remove all gold, magnetite shards, gaeting crystals and exotic loot from the raids during a normal clear. They’ll still drop LI/LDs and collection materials for people in the same fashion for people that want to do them outside of guild missions for legendaries.

Then, implement a new guild mission that works as follows:

1) It starts with a squad of 30 people, 10 in each subgroup. The mission is only startable this way. I’d be fine if this was down to 20, as that’s just shy of a wow raid, but the idea here is that more participation is better.
2)The squad leader selects a raid, then a timer for 30mins to an hour for the guild mission appears for each sub group. Each group is ported into its own instance. The timer for the mission only counts down while the squad is in combat. The chests still drop LIs/KP/Achievement pieces
3) If a wing is cleared, the squad is able to port to another wing of their choosing (if there’s a leutenant commander or commander in a group, they pick)
4) At the end of all timers for each subgroup, a chest with gold, magnetite shards, gaeting crystals and exotics appears for the members (the magnetite/gaeting ratio is determined by where the time was spent in raid) . If a player was not active during the whole run, their results are scaled for the amount of time they were active.

The missions could also be coded to allow varying sizes of squad, but with the catch that each subgroup of 10 added increases the rewards.

This guild mission could be repeated up to a certain maximum number of times per week.

People cannot be removed from squad. If they DC or are toxic they can be placed in one of the inactive squad groups and then replaced with someone else invited to squad.

The goal is to keep people engaged, trying & encourage as much cooperation as possible by tying the rewards to the timer and participation, hence the timer will only go down as people participate in encounters & kicking can’t be done & there’s a cap on the number of replacements you can bring -> generous enough to allow for problems, but not so generous that you turn people into your LI machine.

People will still only get legendary rewards from actually clearing the encounters & they can still be sold by private sellers, but the real economic rewards from raid participation will come from coordinating and working with a large number of people in a guild, hopefully turning it into a social activity.

A common refrain will probably be: Aren’t you turning it into a participation rewards?

My response: Isn’t it already just a participation reward? Anyone doing them now only wants a participation reward. They don’t want to teach anyone or work with anyone, that’s why there’s so much KP requirements and why people stop and/or can’t start. Now you’re rewarded by playing with and working with the community instead of grinding out that 2g + exotic + shards as fast as you can.

Now, the only thing affected by your skill is your legendary progression rate. Squads aren’t penalized as heavily for trying a harder boss for someone’s collection but can still LI farm if that’s the goal. Guilds could even have different groups do different things -> training, LI farming, achieve farming and you join the squad that matches what you want.

Also, this could help revitalize guilds as a mainframe for community interactions. My best experiences in this game come from working with guild mates and I think it's sad guild missions just don't cut it.

I'd probably still box myself out of raids with this design because of my chaotic schedule, but I think it might have potential of doing good.

<134

Comments

  • Parasite.5389Parasite.5389 Member ✭✭✭

    No one will raid if you're Required to join a guild in order to receive rewards beyond your suggestion of LI/LD

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Parasite.5389 said:
    No one will raid if you're Required to join a guild in order to receive rewards beyond your suggestion of LI/LD

    Good point, maybe it's a terrible idea and if they do anything at all, it should just be the same thing other MMOs do: different difficulty levels.

  • Parasite.5389Parasite.5389 Member ✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Parasite.5389 said:
    No one will raid if you're Required to join a guild in order to receive rewards beyond your suggestion of LI/LD

    Good point, maybe it's a terrible idea and if they do anything at all, it should just be the same thing other MMOs do: different difficulty levels.

    Easy-mode raids have been a popular suggestion for a while now; Strikes kinda address it, allowing new players to learn some the more complex mechanics and strategy require to clear raids, but still fall short in terms of difficulty/reward.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    How many LI do you have @Firebeard.1746 ?

    I fail to see how that's relevant to the fact that raids are crumbling. I have more than 0 if you're concerned about that.

    Do you have more than 50?

    I have 18, I've seen plenty of encounters, and I struggle to find groups when I'm on and want to, so now you're just being a kitten, thanks for calling out how bad this game is doing at end game content. Maybe I should do BDO instead. They're going to release raids this year, maybe they won't screw up as bad.

    Actually I was just curious. I think before you propose massive changes to reward structures it's important to be clear about your level of experience with the content. At no point did I call out your skill or knowledge of this game. Cool personal attacks though.

    But yeah you should definitely check out BDO, it's a very good game.

    Well you seemed to want a certain breakpoint before I could comment (Is it more than 50?). If that was really all you wanted then maybe you should have been more forthcoming. Though you're right, I did jump a little soon, I should have let you go where you were going, because I'm sure there's more you had to say. I know because you still haven't answered my question about improving it (which was in the OP by the way), and haven't explained why the 50 is so magically important.

    If you have a hard time getting 9 other people in the guild for raids now.
    How will it be easier to get 19-29 other people after this change?

    I wouldent change anything in the raids, people can learn them easier now with all the guides out there as I did 2-3 years ago.

    Thats the real problem. Increasing number requirement would lower the participation. also not being able to kick is a big no. What if something happens irl and the player has to go? The squad would have to 9man.
    This increases stress on casuals even further since they usually cant guarantee uninterupted playtime.
    Increasing participation is done by easing the group finding process with an lfg tool overhaul for example.
    Take ff14 as example. you can mark groups as trainings or kill. You can only join the kill groups if you did it once.

    Another way are difficulty tiers and automated queues for them. Basically story mode. The public Strike mode doesnt work because of the unique build system. Needs to ask the player if they want to join as healer or dps to not end with 10 healer. Boons are provided by a useful glenna and stats are normalized to berserker/viper etc. Maybe even a toughness/vita boost.
    "But thats so much work for something players might only do once" Ye exactly like story instances but they get all the resources. This would increase participation a lot. The automated system is important! The current lfg is a very interactive system that a lot of casuals dont like to use.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Seems more like a way to kill raids than help them.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2021

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    How many LI do you have @Firebeard.1746 ?

    I fail to see how that's relevant to the fact that raids are crumbling. I have more than 0 if you're concerned about that.

    Do you have more than 50?

    I have 18, I've seen plenty of encounters, and I struggle to find groups when I'm on and want to, so now you're just being a kitten, thanks for calling out how bad this game is doing at end game content. Maybe I should do BDO instead. They're going to release raids this year, maybe they won't screw up as bad.

    Actually I was just curious. I think before you propose massive changes to reward structures it's important to be clear about your level of experience with the content. At no point did I call out your skill or knowledge of this game. Cool personal attacks though.

    But yeah you should definitely check out BDO, it's a very good game.

    Well you seemed to want a certain breakpoint before I could comment (Is it more than 50?). If that was really all you wanted then maybe you should have been more forthcoming. Though you're right, I did jump a little soon, I should have let you go where you were going, because I'm sure there's more you had to say. I know because you still haven't answered my question about improving it (which was in the OP by the way), and haven't explained why the 50 is so magically important.

    If you have a hard time getting 9 other people in the guild for raids now.
    How will it be easier to get 19-29 other people after this change?

    I wouldent change anything in the raids, people can learn them easier now with all the guides out there as I did 2-3 years ago.

    Thats the real problem. Increasing number requirement would lower the participation. also not being able to kick is a big no. What if something happens irl and the player has to go? The squad would have to 9man.
    This increases stress on casuals even further since they usually cant guarantee uninterupted playtime.
    Increasing participation is done by easing the group finding process with an lfg tool overhaul for example.
    Take ff14 as example. you can mark groups as trainings or kill. You can only join the kill groups if you did it once.

    Another way are difficulty tiers and automated queues for them. Basically story mode. The public Strike mode doesnt work because of the unique build system. Needs to ask the player if they want to join as healer or dps to not end with 10 healer. Boons are provided by a useful glenna and stats are normalized to berserker/viper etc. Maybe even a toughness/vita boost.
    "But thats so much work for something players might only do once" Ye exactly like story instances but they get all the resources. This would increase participation a lot. The automated system is important! The current lfg is a very interactive system that a lot of casuals dont like to use.

    you didn't read my post. Each subgroup becomes its own instance group, you move people out of it and they're gone. In this setup you start with a 50-man squad with only 30 people.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Seems more like a way to kill raids than help them.

    How would you fix them?

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    How many LI do you have @Firebeard.1746 ?

    I fail to see how that's relevant to the fact that raids are crumbling. I have more than 0 if you're concerned about that.

    Do you have more than 50?

    I have 18, I've seen plenty of encounters, and I struggle to find groups when I'm on and want to, so now you're just being a kitten, thanks for calling out how bad this game is doing at end game content. Maybe I should do BDO instead. They're going to release raids this year, maybe they won't screw up as bad.

    Actually I was just curious. I think before you propose massive changes to reward structures it's important to be clear about your level of experience with the content. At no point did I call out your skill or knowledge of this game. Cool personal attacks though.

    But yeah you should definitely check out BDO, it's a very good game.

    Well you seemed to want a certain breakpoint before I could comment (Is it more than 50?). If that was really all you wanted then maybe you should have been more forthcoming. Though you're right, I did jump a little soon, I should have let you go where you were going, because I'm sure there's more you had to say. I know because you still haven't answered my question about improving it (which was in the OP by the way), and haven't explained why the 50 is so magically important.

    If you have a hard time getting 9 other people in the guild for raids now.
    How will it be easier to get 19-29 other people after this change?

    I wouldent change anything in the raids, people can learn them easier now with all the guides out there as I did 2-3 years ago.

    Thats the real problem. Increasing number requirement would lower the participation. also not being able to kick is a big no. What if something happens irl and the player has to go? The squad would have to 9man.
    This increases stress on casuals even further since they usually cant guarantee uninterupted playtime.
    Increasing participation is done by easing the group finding process with an lfg tool overhaul for example.
    Take ff14 as example. you can mark groups as trainings or kill. You can only join the kill groups if you did it once.

    Another way are difficulty tiers and automated queues for them. Basically story mode. The public Strike mode doesnt work because of the unique build system. Needs to ask the player if they want to join as healer or dps to not end with 10 healer. Boons are provided by a useful glenna and stats are normalized to berserker/viper etc. Maybe even a toughness/vita boost.
    "But thats so much work for something players might only do once" Ye exactly like story instances but they get all the resources. This would increase participation a lot. The automated system is important! The current lfg is a very interactive system that a lot of casuals dont like to use.

    you didn't read my post. Each subgroup becomes its own instance group, you move people out of it and they're gone. In this setup you start with a 50-man squad with only 30 people.

    So how would you stop abuser trolls and leecher if you cant kick? A simple afk macro would make this the best afk farm. people are even afk leeching public drms currently.
    "My response: Isn’t it already just a participation reward?" No, no rewards if you fail. Powercreep allows 1-4 dead weight but the rest of the group has to do more than participating then.
    Rewarding "in active combat time" would turn it into the best 1 + 29 alt account afk farm. Far better than open world meta leech.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2021

    @dubs.2396 said:
    I'm always super surprised at this stance with new raiders talking about the huge barrier to entry. I've raided at the highest difficulty in ever MMO I've played. This is the only MMO, from personal experience, that has a large "training" community. My mythic raid team in WoW is NEVER going to train a new player to raid at our level.

    I think that is largely driven by the scaling difficulty of the raids themselves. WoW players have the stance.. If you want to learn, learn at the lower levels. I won't get into the debate regarding Anet adding an easier difficulty. Plenty of form posts on that.

    However, I think the fact that this game has experienced raiders willing to train new players is half of the solution. The other half lies on the new players to raid like yourself. If experienced raiders are willing to give their time and teach the basics, new players need to take ownership and pick up the torch.

    I had 0 LI a year ago. Now I have over 1,000. My entire static has over a 1,000. You know why? In a training raid, I too felt, like you.. they were time consuming and only focused on specific bosses. I wanted to learn all the bosses. I made a form post, a few discord posts, and joined 2 mega guilds in which I advertised in guild chat. I advertised to find 9 other players that were new, had no experience, and just wanted to work through the raids together starting at Boss 1, VG. I told them we were going to stay on VG until he died and then progress in order, W1-W7.

    I got probably 30-40 responses. My static, over the past year, has weeded out some 20 people that either didn't improve. Didn't really enjoy consistent raiding like they thought they would. Didn't show up, etc. But, we raid 3 hours a week and full clear W1-W7 with ease now.

    My group all has over 1,000 LI and anytime we pug, I list in LFG that we need a dps without ever posting an LI requirement. No LI listings are somewhat common on Mondays when we raid actually. If the person does more than 10k dps and doesn't stand in every fire possible, we just let it ride. 95% of the time they are good anyway.

    TLDR: Stop waiting and asking for an Anet solution. The GW2 raiding community is outstanding with experienced trainers. Whisper other new people from training runs, make your own scrub squad (my static literally was called Dubs is a Scrub Static to make it clear what our intent was) and progress together. The barrier to entry for new players is self imposed.

    If you are in a static everything is hunky dory. Every time I've asked, statics aren't willing to take me. And when I join the discord and try to set things up, most of the time it falls through. Also things have changed dramatically from a year ago. NA raid academy wasn't like this then. I have a lot of different gear sets in at least exotic, if not a mix. I can bring almost any utility to a party except guardian ones or banners.

    But maybe you're right, maybe I should just try myself.

  • If you are in a static everything is hunky dory. Every time I've asked, statics aren't willing to take me. And when I join the discord and try to set things up, most of the time it falls through. Also things have changed dramatically from a year ago. NA raid academy wasn't like this then. I have a lot of different gear sets in at least exotic, if not a mix. I can bring almost any utility to a party except guardian ones or banners.

    I haven't been afk for a year. I didn't get my LI by not raiding. I've been incredibly active in the raiding scene. I'm in NA raid academy. I was when I formed my group, I stayed, and I'm there now.

    Of course most established statics won't take you with 18 LI. That is why the point of my post was to make your own group. Seek out other low experienced players. If you make posts seeking static members with no/low exp requirement, you'll get A LOT of interest and responses.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2021

    @dubs.2396 said:

    If you are in a static everything is hunky dory. Every time I've asked, statics aren't willing to take me. And when I join the discord and try to set things up, most of the time it falls through. Also things have changed dramatically from a year ago. NA raid academy wasn't like this then. I have a lot of different gear sets in at least exotic, if not a mix. I can bring almost any utility to a party except guardian ones or banners.

    I haven't been afk for a year. I didn't get my LI by not raiding. I've been incredibly active in the raiding scene. I'm in NA raid academy. I was when I formed my group, I stayed, and I'm there now.

    Of course most established statics won't take you with 18 LI. That is why the point of my post was to make your own group. Seek out other low experienced players. If you make posts seeking static members with no/low exp requirement, you'll get A LOT of interest and responses.

    I thought I did and no one bit a while back.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BlueJin.4127 said:
    Different difficulties like fractals so that even casual players can play with random groups.

    Because that's working so well for Fractal development right? Since Fractals have multiple difficulties we are getting one every couple of months and everyone is happy there.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @BlueJin.4127 said:
    Different difficulties like fractals so that even casual players can play with random groups.

    Because that's working so well for Fractal development right? Since Fractals have multiple difficulties we are getting one every couple of months and everyone is happy there.

    You're conflating dev resources and participation. i'm sure fractals have higher overall participation.

  • frareanselm.1925frareanselm.1925 Member ✭✭✭

    talking with friends we agree that the raid mechanics require teamspeak/discord participation, and most people dont have microphone or headset, for example, that's dissuasive.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @BlueJin.4127 said:
    Different difficulties like fractals so that even casual players can play with random groups.

    Because that's working so well for Fractal development right? Since Fractals have multiple difficulties we are getting one every couple of months and everyone is happy there.

    You're conflating dev resources and participation. i'm sure fractals have higher overall participation.

    And look at what that higher overall participation brought to them. Even lower release cadence than Raids.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Seems more like a way to kill raids than help them.

    How would you fix them?

    Rewards that better match the challenge as well as making repeating a boss during the week worth it. New wings.

    The primary issue that needs to be resolved is on the player side (not those that raid) but it’ll never be fixed.

  • Mungo Zen.9364Mungo Zen.9364 Member ✭✭✭

    If there was one change that could be made with the mindset of improving the Raiding/Strikes community I would focus on incentivizing the training of new players.

    Currently players join raiding groups (guilds or pugs) to see new content, farm legendary armor, complete achievements, and perhaps least of all, raw mats and junk drops. Once a player has experienced this content and done everything there is to do in it, there is little incentive to stay with it. By incentivizing experienced players teaching new players, you have the opportunity to keep more players engaged with Raiding and the growth of the community.

    The intent would be to get veteran players who are experienced with raids and strikes to lead groups. I would suggest incentivization falls outside of normal rewards and likely be cosmetic items, titles or resources as well as achievements (but not new items or collections).

    • Create (or repurpose) a set of "Master Raider/Striker" achievements that are based around number of raid/strike clears. Something like "Clear each wing/boss 20x times" and/or "Clear 100 total wings/bosses"
    • Players who have attained these achievements are now eligible for additional loot when raiding/striking in two methods:
    1. If you have attained the requisite achievements, you will receive additional loot for each boss kill on top of normal loot. This bonus loot always is provided, even after the first clears of the week.
    2. If you have attained the requisite achievements, and are in a group that has members who have not, you will receive bonus loot for each player that doesn't have the achieve.

    The intent here is to create two paths to increasing veteran player engagement with raiding.

    Firstly, by increasing the loot rewards for veteran players. Once a player has farmed the rewards from Raiding/Strikes there is little reason to go back. By providing healthier rewards and allowing them to be available over multiple kills per week, you have created a method of replayability for those vets without negating existing collections (looking at Legendary Armor specifically). Put another way, raiding when farming Legendary Armor has more value then Raiding when not farming Legendary Armor.

    Secondly by giving all Vet players bonus loot for each non-Vet player in their squad it would incentivize bringing new players to this content. 9 Veteran players bring 1 new player, then those 9 each get 1 bonus loot. 5 Vets bring 5 new players, each Vet gets 5 bonus loots.

    It is a rough outline of an idea, but something I have considered for a while from other Raiding games: Incentivizing players to be leaders and teachers.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    remove time limites to boss kill or increase 2-3 x

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2021

    Adding a normal mode (and possibly an easy mode) might be Arenanet's best shot to increase raid participation.

    The current hard and challenge modes just don't attract the majority of players.
    Raising the number of players that can join a raid together is very unlikely the change that.
    Getting 30 players together and coordinating them sounds very tedious and tiring to me.

  • Rhiannon.1726Rhiannon.1726 Member ✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    remove time limites to boss kill or increase 2-3 x

    The only raid bosses where I've seen the enrage in the last two or three years were Largos and Cardinal Sabir (with unexperienced players). It's also been ages since I've seen a training group doing updrafts at Gorseval. 99% of fails are due to other mistakes and not the timers.

    If anyone is actually afraid of the timer, they can start raiding with Cairn, as there is no real enrage mechanic.

    My suggestion to improve participation:
    Let us open the raid wings at any boss we've killed at least once, to get more flexibility if you don't have much time and just want to do your favourite bosses. Additionally with this possibility there could be a daily to kill a single boss with rewards (even if you've already killed this boss).

    I'm not a fan of easy mode raids as we already have different difficulty levels in raids:
    Easy: Mursaat, Escort, River
    Difficult: Dhuum, Largos, Qadim1
    Hard mode: some of the CMs
    (my own opinion, every other boss is "normal mode")

  • CasualElitist.8795CasualElitist.8795 Member ✭✭
    edited March 27, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Anyone doing them now only wants a participation reward. They don’t want to teach anyone or work with anyone, that’s why there’s so much KP requirements and why people stop and/or can’t start.

    Yeah, no. If noone wants to teach people I wonder why my raid training discord has 7000 members, 15 official training squads per week (in peak of corona we had over 40 squads per week) + few unofficial training/progress raiding squads per day, multiple commanders spending their free time teaching people raids, dozens of people answering raid related questions and giving advice every single hour.

  • @frareanselm.1925 said:
    talking with friends we agree that the raid mechanics require teamspeak/discord participation, and most people dont have microphone or headset, for example, that's dissuasive.

    99% of the time all you have to do is listen to voice commands, you don't even have to use your mic. If asked, answer in game chat.

  • Fangoth.4503Fangoth.4503 Member ✭✭✭

    Will change from toxic lfg to toxic guild.
    Fail a mech => G-kick
    How is this any better?
    Learning how to play your class and learning boss mechs is the safest and fastest way to get bosses down :)

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021

    @CasualElitist.8795 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Anyone doing them now only wants a participation reward. They don’t want to teach anyone or work with anyone, that’s why there’s so much KP requirements and why people stop and/or can’t start.

    Yeah, no. If noone wants to teach people I wonder why my raid training discord has 7000 members, 15 official training squads per week (in peak of corona we had over 40 squads per week) + few unofficial training/progress raiding squads per day, multiple commanders spending their free time teaching people raids, dozens of people answering raid related questions and giving advice every single hour.

    So 7000 people are supposed to be covered by 15 official training runs? Is this NA raid academy? Because the last time I checked, I saw tons of withdrawn community training pings and even progression pings because of lack of interest. If you're Eu, good for you. I can play just fine by the way, the issue is finding people to play with when I have time.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @BlueJin.4127 said:
    Different difficulties like fractals so that even casual players can play with random groups.

    Because that's working so well for Fractal development right? Since Fractals have multiple difficulties we are getting one every couple of months and everyone is happy there.

    You're conflating dev resources and participation. i'm sure fractals have higher overall participation.

    And look at what that higher overall participation brought to them. Even lower release cadence than Raids.

    Really? Because last I checked Sunqua peak came out after W7.

  • CasualElitist.8795CasualElitist.8795 Member ✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @CasualElitist.8795 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Anyone doing them now only wants a participation reward. They don’t want to teach anyone or work with anyone, that’s why there’s so much KP requirements and why people stop and/or can’t start.

    Yeah, no. If noone wants to teach people I wonder why my raid training discord has 7000 members, 15 official training squads per week (in peak of corona we had over 40 squads per week) + few unofficial training/progress raiding squads per day, multiple commanders spending their free time teaching people raids, dozens of people answering raid related questions and giving advice every single hour.

    So 7000 people are supposed to be covered by 15 official training runs? Is this NA raid academy? Because the last time I checked, I saw tons of withdrawn community training pings and even progression pings because of lack of interest. If you're Eu, good for you. I can play just fine by the way, the issue is finding people to play with when I have time.

    No, 7000 people is what we gathered since this discord was founded years ago. People getting trained, then they move on to train others or they form statics to progress further with ppl on the same lvl. We keep getting new trainees every day. It's EU, Crossroads Inn. Some people run during the day, some at the evenings, some late night, so there are always some ppl with matching shedules.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Safandula.8723 said:
    or just start playing with normal comps, instead of taking 8 healers

    oh, I think in opposite way, only one heal, and other in common hybride open word armor. Now we have what only zerk and viper mostly used ..
    this is shame on stat combination ..
    Soldier's Valkyrie Commander's Marauder Vigilant Crusader Wanderer's Marshal's Knight's Cavalier's Nomad's Settler's Carrion Rabid Dire Bringer's Apothecary's .. they mostly all not used for common raiders.
    On my concept every dps class can additionally have some vitality, toughness and other save stats. Yes, it can down boss longer and I don't see any reason add some penalty for that.
    We have bad stat balance, and 90+ stats is useless in common setup.
    So one way - make it not so scalable to dps, because now if I take Soldier's's whit divinity rune and zerk whit eagle I see very big difference. Incredible big, but not see realy big saving compared wiht lose.

    And why 8 heals? Let it be all 10. Not joke. If I copy some concept from another also liked for me game imagine 10 druids kill boss, and main damage come from pets. This is normal way in some mmo in raids.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    real diversity of stats and biulds possible only if we update timers 2-3x, and bring 0 penaly for dps.
    For many people absolutely not fun learn rotation from some raid speed runners, they not associate that whit game. The fun take open world set, jump from damage and kill boss. I am not discuss it is ok or not. I say that I don't see another way to attract most gw2 population for raids.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    about LI/LD - this is not problem. I check raids last weeks, and see that people ask Li only on Monday. On others days/ and not prime time I see what I join where requirement 50kp, link 4-5 kp, and all happy and say Welcome, that I come because most squad wait members long time. And no one join.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @BlueJin.4127 said:
    Different difficulties like fractals so that even casual players can play with random groups.

    Because that's working so well for Fractal development right? Since Fractals have multiple difficulties we are getting one every couple of months and everyone is happy there.

    You're conflating dev resources and participation. i'm sure fractals have higher overall participation.

    And look at what that higher overall participation brought to them. Even lower release cadence than Raids.

    Really? Because last I checked Sunqua peak came out after W7.

    And that refute the release cadence how?

    hint its the time bettwen when new fractals drop not what came last into the game.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @BlueJin.4127 said:
    Different difficulties like fractals so that even casual players can play with random groups.

    Because that's working so well for Fractal development right? Since Fractals have multiple difficulties we are getting one every couple of months and everyone is happy there.

    You're conflating dev resources and participation. i'm sure fractals have higher overall participation.

    And look at what that higher overall participation brought to them. Even lower release cadence than Raids.

    Really? Because last I checked Sunqua peak came out after W7.

    And that refute the release cadence how?

    hint its the time bettwen when new fractals drop not what came last into the game.

    The only years we didn't see a new fractal were 2014 and 2015 and there was a slew at the start of them. I'd say that's more solid than raids on average. The release cadence is at least 2/year on average. If you do the same average over lifespan and include these years, then fractals still beat raids.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @BlueJin.4127 said:
    Different difficulties like fractals so that even casual players can play with random groups.

    Because that's working so well for Fractal development right? Since Fractals have multiple difficulties we are getting one every couple of months and everyone is happy there.

    You're conflating dev resources and participation. i'm sure fractals have higher overall participation.

    And look at what that higher overall participation brought to them. Even lower release cadence than Raids.

    Really? Because last I checked Sunqua peak came out after W7.

    And that refute the release cadence how?

    hint its the time bettwen when new fractals drop not what came last into the game.

    The only years we didn't see a new fractal were 2014 and 2015 and there was a slew at the start of them. I'd say that's more solid than raids on average. The release cadence is at least 2/year on average. If you do the same average over lifespan and include these years, then fractals still beat raids.

    Dont everything get a bunch at the strt the first 3 raid wings were released quite quickly now its been quite awhile since the last.

    Same with fractals to be fare and that is with 4 difficulty mode so the famous easy mode is there.
    I wouldent call 2 over 20 months a 2 each year release cadence.

    With the release of Living World Season 4, Episode 5: All or Nothing (January 8, 2019) the new Siren's Reef fractal was introduced.
    On September 15, 2020, the new Sunqua Peak fractal was introduced.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021

    The only way is for Anet to rework the build system to something more intuitive for most players, and to make it less dependent on damage modifiers. This is the biggest difference between GW2 and other MMOs. In other MMOs you just have your standard roles with pre-selected builds by the devs who hold your hand. It's so simple that even an automated queue system can match players effectively. GW2 has a huge amount of useless options, and very specific builds for specific comps. None of the true casuals know most of the build acronyms. HB, cFB, stm, alacrigade, BS. "What is all that stuff? Do you mean a tank?"

    Boons are also a huge issue, because they are far too strong compared to every other game. Not only are they way more necessary, but you also need dedicated builds to constantly apply them instead of applying them once and then not worrying about it again for half an hour. What this does is it makes groups that are already pretty bad into completely terrible and unplayable groups, because the lack of boons makes their bad performance even worse. They can't even practice their builds properly without a proper boon support to carry them.

    I truly don't know if Anet should do these reworks or not, but I do know that if they don't happen raiding will never ever be popular in GW2. No matter the amount of training guilds or strikes or easy mode raids, it's just not happening.

  • Fangoth.4503Fangoth.4503 Member ✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    oh, I think in opposite way, only one heal, and other in common hybride open word armor. Now we have what only zerk and viper mostly used ..
    this is shame on stat combination ..
    Soldier's Valkyrie Commander's Marauder Vigilant Crusader Wanderer's Marshal's Knight's Cavalier's Nomad's Settler's Carrion Rabid Dire Bringer's Apothecary's .. they mostly all not used for common raiders.

    And that's why you hit enrage but at least with that many healers overhealing enrage shouldn't be an issue ;)

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    And that's why you hit enrage but at least with that many healers overhealing enrage shouldn't be an issue ;)

    ? on many bosses - enrage -insta kill all.
    Also, you can read again, I propagate ONE heal in squad. But not want prevent is 10 druids want to it too.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Antioche.7034Antioche.7034 Member ✭✭✭

    The only way to give an incentive to raids is simply to make the rewards better. Right now 95+% of raiders are making less money than people farming AB or Dragonfall brainlessly. "Why would I take time learning raids if I can just farm and get more rewards".

    There are a bunch of people ready to help you progress, but there are not many people that wish to progress. I've raided with a dozen of training guilds, and you don't even want to know how many people actually ask for advices on rotations etc, because it is close to 0.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    real diversity of stats and biulds possible only if we update timers 2-3x, and bring 0 penaly for dps.
    For many people absolutely not fun learn rotation from some raid speed runners, they not associate that whit game. The fun take open world set, jump from damage and kill boss. I am not discuss it is ok or not. I say that I don't see another way to attract most gw2 population for raids.

    ur a real pionier, humanity needs more ppl like u

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • yukarishura.4790yukarishura.4790 Member ✭✭✭

    @dubs.2396 said:
    I'm always super surprised at this stance with new raiders talking about the huge barrier to entry. I've raided at the highest difficulty in ever MMO I've played. This is the only MMO, from personal experience, that has a large "training" community. My mythic raid team in WoW is NEVER going to train a new player to raid at our level.

    I think that is largely driven by the scaling difficulty of the raids themselves. WoW players have the stance.. If you want to learn, learn at the lower levels. I won't get into the debate regarding Anet adding an easier difficulty. Plenty of form posts on that.

    However, I think the fact that this game has experienced raiders willing to train new players is half of the solution. The other half lies on the new players to raid like yourself. If experienced raiders are willing to give their time and teach the basics, new players need to take ownership and pick up the torch.

    I had 0 LI a year ago. Now I have over 1,000. My entire static has over a 1,000. You know why? In a training raid, I too felt, like you.. they were time consuming and only focused on specific bosses. I wanted to learn all the bosses. I made a form post, a few discord posts, and joined 2 mega guilds in which I advertised in guild chat. I advertised to find 9 other players that were new, had no experience, and just wanted to work through the raids together starting at Boss 1, VG. I told them we were going to stay on VG until he died and then progress in order, W1-W7.

    I got probably 30-40 responses. My static, over the past year, has weeded out some 20 people that either didn't improve. Didn't really enjoy consistent raiding like they thought they would. Didn't show up, etc. But, we raid 3 hours a week and full clear W1-W7 with ease now.

    My group all has over 1,000 LI and anytime we pug, I list in LFG that we need a dps without ever posting an LI requirement. No LI listings are somewhat common on Mondays when we raid actually. If the person does more than 10k dps and doesn't stand in every fire possible, we just let it ride. 95% of the time they are good anyway.

    TLDR: Stop waiting and asking for an Anet solution. The GW2 raiding community is outstanding with experienced trainers. Whisper other new people from training runs, make your own scrub squad (my static literally was called Dubs is a Scrub Static to make it clear what our intent was) and progress together. The barrier to entry for new players is self imposed.

    Yes, gw2 has so many dedicated guilds to training, people literraly spend like 2 hours just to teach 1 wing to new ppl and wipe -gg- wipe, it says a lot about the dedication

  • Cuks.8241Cuks.8241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The only thing Anet would need to do to keep raids relevant is to release new quality raids in a timely manner. At least one raid per LS season and 2 per expansion. And market them. Right now there are not enough raids to expect a healthy raiding community and the future looks bleak. Noone that plays raids as his primary game mode would play GW2.
    The game has everything that it needs but the content itself.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    ppl still belive that new raids will appear :3

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Parasite.5389Parasite.5389 Member ✭✭✭

    @Safandula.8723 said:
    ppl still belive that new raids will appear :3

    it's very unlikely that we wont get a new set of raids for EoD

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Parasite.5389 said:

    @Safandula.8723 said:
    ppl still belive that new raids will appear :3

    it's very unlikely that we wont get a new set of raids for EoD

    Double negative? You meant "it's very likely that we wont get a new set of raids for EoD" or "it's very unlikely that we will get a new set of raids for EoD"

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Parasite.5389 said:

    @Safandula.8723 said:
    ppl still belive that new raids will appear :3

    it's very unlikely that we wont get a new set of raids for EoD

    Double negative? You meant "it's very likely that we wont get a new set of raids for EoD" or "it's very unlikely that we will get a new set of raids for EoD"

    "Its likely we will ..." is how it reads.