If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation? - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Fractals/Dungeons/Strike Missions/Raids

If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?

1356710

Comments

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @BlueJin.4127 said:
    Different difficulties like fractals so that even casual players can play with random groups.

    Because that's working so well for Fractal development right? Since Fractals have multiple difficulties we are getting one every couple of months and everyone is happy there.

    At least we got a new fractal sadge ;_;

  • Shaogin.2679Shaogin.2679 Member ✭✭✭

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @Shaogin.2679 said:
    Honestly the only thing I would change with Raids is to create better introductions to the mechanics of the raid fights. Going into a brand new fight and wiping over and over simply because you're trying to figure out what the hell is killing you isn't really fun, and most people will just wait for some sort of guide to come out for it. The Vale Guardian is a perfect example of a Raid boss done right. You fight the three aspects first, each of which introduce you to a mechanic of the upcoming boss one at a time. Hell, even something as simple as an npc that gives you a quick overview of the upcoming fight in some sort of cinematic or something would be a huge improvement.

    Can you give me an example of raid mechanic that cannot be figured out within 1-2 wipes?

    From the perspective of players that have troubles with them? No, I can't, because I'm not one of those players. Not everyone plays on the same level though, and people do have issues with being thrown into mechanics and learning them on the spot. Facts are facts, and giving those players some sort of introduction to those mechanics would help ease people into the fights without having to create entirely separate easy mode raids and what not. Question is, why would you be opposed to this, and if you aren't, then why pose the question?

    Doc Von Doom

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shaogin.2679 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @Shaogin.2679 said:
    Honestly the only thing I would change with Raids is to create better introductions to the mechanics of the raid fights. Going into a brand new fight and wiping over and over simply because you're trying to figure out what the hell is killing you isn't really fun, and most people will just wait for some sort of guide to come out for it. The Vale Guardian is a perfect example of a Raid boss done right. You fight the three aspects first, each of which introduce you to a mechanic of the upcoming boss one at a time. Hell, even something as simple as an npc that gives you a quick overview of the upcoming fight in some sort of cinematic or something would be a huge improvement.

    Can you give me an example of raid mechanic that cannot be figured out within 1-2 wipes?

    From the perspective of players that have troubles with them? No, I can't, because I'm not one of those players. Not everyone plays on the same level though, and people do have issues with being thrown into mechanics and learning them on the spot. Facts are facts, and giving those players some sort of introduction to those mechanics would help ease people into the fights without having to create entirely separate easy mode raids and what not. Question is, why would you be opposed to this, and if you aren't, then why pose the question?

    I am not opposed to 2nd difficulty. But I personally can't find a single mechanic in current raids that is not explained. Most of them are self-explanatory and some require you to read the tooltips on either the boss or your own buff bar. Even experienced squads with dozens of kills on particular boss can wipe before getting a successful kill. I find no problem with newbies wiping on a boss couple times to get mechanics down. Thought you might have some examples for "badly designed" mechanics. I just don't like unsubstantiated criticism.

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    You're on to something here. It's not just hand-holding. It's how this game is built and its original player base vs how raids operate. It was designed to be something that you can just visit as you have time on just about any aspect. The raids, however, have mechanics that require disc and/or special muscle memory, i.e. players must learn certain skills in order to not wipe their squad, or must communicate effectively in real time. It's also very common that there's at least 1 mechanic that puts heavy pressure on one player, and if that player fails, everyone dies (W5 pusher, hand kite, shields, VG orbs (often dealt with by Druid)). That pretty much rules out it being an activity that you can just visit as you have time -> if you try pugging, you can keep failing, through no fault of your own if enough of your team mates don't have it down. So, you must build a static of people to work with so hopefully they'll get it over time and you won't waste your time every time you step into the same boss. Otherwise, it's wiping over and over on a new set of randos. This also means, YOU MUST SHOW UP EVERY WEEK if you don't want to lose your spot. That destroys some of the core design principles of this game.

    I agree that raids inherently run counter to 'core design principles' of the game at large, particularly the "just show up to stuff that is happening" aspect of the game.

    Unfortunately for raiding and GW2, I think there is no smart way to bridge the gap. Raids will either have to be watered down so as to lose meaning as the highest tier of challenging pve encounter, or other no-barriers-to-entry encounters will have to get substantially more challenging. One might suggest, as you and others have, that doing the latter is feasible; just add Difficult Thing X to this encounter, and Slightly Demanding Thing Y to that encounter, and soon enough the game will have provided enough steadily ramped-up challenge so the typical level 80 has much better exposure to said challenges.

    I would counter that there is something especially regressive and entrenched about the GW2 playerbase. To this day, so many people cannot do HPs in HoT and PoF without a train. To this day, people are making threads about the expansion areas being too hard to enjoy. Power creep has advanced to a point where I can solo just about every explorable dungeon in reasonable time, and others can do CM fractals on their own as well. I'm not saying that the typical player needs to be able to reach that level of proficiency, but simply that a huge proportion of players are falling extremely short of their characters' potential despite having so many tools to do better. Therefore I do not think there is a way to insert meaningfully increased challenges across the board, given how poorly many players are content to play this game. I think most people will just stop playing things that kill them, rather than push themselves to improve. There are, of course, players that will push themselves to improve, but they're also the ones who can already get into raiding via the many resources currently available.

    The thing is, GW2 has been designed to be very forgiving to that kind of player, and I happen to think that's what makes GW2 unique and worthwhile among its competitors. GW2 has never been about needing to do The Right Thing at The Right Time, but for any content to be meaningfully more difficult, it can't be as non-demanding as the core game here is.

    So either ANet (1) betrays the fundamental design of the game by adding in stuff that you can't just walk into unprepared and unskilled, or (2) betrays the fundamental design of raids by making them less than the promised pinnacle of pve challenge they were meant to be. I can really see why ANet has chosen to not really engage with raids at all these days, given those options.

  • Shaogin.2679Shaogin.2679 Member ✭✭✭

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @Shaogin.2679 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @Shaogin.2679 said:
    Honestly the only thing I would change with Raids is to create better introductions to the mechanics of the raid fights. Going into a brand new fight and wiping over and over simply because you're trying to figure out what the hell is killing you isn't really fun, and most people will just wait for some sort of guide to come out for it. The Vale Guardian is a perfect example of a Raid boss done right. You fight the three aspects first, each of which introduce you to a mechanic of the upcoming boss one at a time. Hell, even something as simple as an npc that gives you a quick overview of the upcoming fight in some sort of cinematic or something would be a huge improvement.

    Can you give me an example of raid mechanic that cannot be figured out within 1-2 wipes?

    From the perspective of players that have troubles with them? No, I can't, because I'm not one of those players. Not everyone plays on the same level though, and people do have issues with being thrown into mechanics and learning them on the spot. Facts are facts, and giving those players some sort of introduction to those mechanics would help ease people into the fights without having to create entirely separate easy mode raids and what not. Question is, why would you be opposed to this, and if you aren't, then why pose the question?

    I am not opposed to 2nd difficulty. But I personally can't find a single mechanic in current raids that is not explained. Most of them are self-explanatory and some require you to read the tooltips on either the boss or your own buff bar. Even experienced squads with dozens of kills on particular boss can wipe before getting a successful kill. I find no problem with newbies wiping on a boss couple times to get mechanics down. Thought you might have some examples for "badly designed" mechanics. I just don't like unsubstantiated criticism.

    No criticism here though. It's simple really, there is a large portion of players that have issues understanding the mechanics, and I proposed a solution that doesn't involve creating an easy mode for raids. That's all there is to it really.

    Doc Von Doom

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shaogin.2679 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @Shaogin.2679 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @Shaogin.2679 said:
    Honestly the only thing I would change with Raids is to create better introductions to the mechanics of the raid fights. Going into a brand new fight and wiping over and over simply because you're trying to figure out what the hell is killing you isn't really fun, and most people will just wait for some sort of guide to come out for it. The Vale Guardian is a perfect example of a Raid boss done right. You fight the three aspects first, each of which introduce you to a mechanic of the upcoming boss one at a time. Hell, even something as simple as an npc that gives you a quick overview of the upcoming fight in some sort of cinematic or something would be a huge improvement.

    Can you give me an example of raid mechanic that cannot be figured out within 1-2 wipes?

    From the perspective of players that have troubles with them? No, I can't, because I'm not one of those players. Not everyone plays on the same level though, and people do have issues with being thrown into mechanics and learning them on the spot. Facts are facts, and giving those players some sort of introduction to those mechanics would help ease people into the fights without having to create entirely separate easy mode raids and what not. Question is, why would you be opposed to this, and if you aren't, then why pose the question?

    I am not opposed to 2nd difficulty. But I personally can't find a single mechanic in current raids that is not explained. Most of them are self-explanatory and some require you to read the tooltips on either the boss or your own buff bar. Even experienced squads with dozens of kills on particular boss can wipe before getting a successful kill. I find no problem with newbies wiping on a boss couple times to get mechanics down. Thought you might have some examples for "badly designed" mechanics. I just don't like unsubstantiated criticism.

    It's simple really, there is a large portion of players that have issues understanding the mechanics,

    Who? Where? I'd like to talk to those people. Let them speak now or forever hold their peace! :)

  • Shaogin.2679Shaogin.2679 Member ✭✭✭

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @Shaogin.2679 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @Shaogin.2679 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @Shaogin.2679 said:
    Honestly the only thing I would change with Raids is to create better introductions to the mechanics of the raid fights. Going into a brand new fight and wiping over and over simply because you're trying to figure out what the hell is killing you isn't really fun, and most people will just wait for some sort of guide to come out for it. The Vale Guardian is a perfect example of a Raid boss done right. You fight the three aspects first, each of which introduce you to a mechanic of the upcoming boss one at a time. Hell, even something as simple as an npc that gives you a quick overview of the upcoming fight in some sort of cinematic or something would be a huge improvement.

    Can you give me an example of raid mechanic that cannot be figured out within 1-2 wipes?

    From the perspective of players that have troubles with them? No, I can't, because I'm not one of those players. Not everyone plays on the same level though, and people do have issues with being thrown into mechanics and learning them on the spot. Facts are facts, and giving those players some sort of introduction to those mechanics would help ease people into the fights without having to create entirely separate easy mode raids and what not. Question is, why would you be opposed to this, and if you aren't, then why pose the question?

    I am not opposed to 2nd difficulty. But I personally can't find a single mechanic in current raids that is not explained. Most of them are self-explanatory and some require you to read the tooltips on either the boss or your own buff bar. Even experienced squads with dozens of kills on particular boss can wipe before getting a successful kill. I find no problem with newbies wiping on a boss couple times to get mechanics down. Thought you might have some examples for "badly designed" mechanics. I just don't like unsubstantiated criticism.

    It's simple really, there is a large portion of players that have issues understanding the mechanics,

    Who? Where? I'd like to talk to those people. Let them speak now or forever hold their peace! :)

    They've been speaking for years now. At this point I can only assume that you are here to troll are just love being argumentative for the sake of it, but either way you aren't contributing anything of substance to this conversation at this point. If you want to hide under a rock and ignore the world around you, have fun with that, I'm not really interested.

    Doc Von Doom

  • Eponet.4829Eponet.4829 Member ✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021

    @dubs.2396 said:
    TLDR: Stop waiting and asking for an Anet solution. The GW2 raiding community is outstanding with experienced trainers. Whisper other new people from training runs, make your own scrub squad (my static literally was called Dubs is a Scrub Static to make it clear what our intent was) and progress together. The barrier to entry for new players is self imposed.

    I somehow doubt that. Granted I stopped playing ages ago after I discovered that they tied the first two raids into the main story, but at least back when I did play, when I looked up groups, there were never learning parties and you made your own group, the result was getting a massive carousel of people joining, getting frustrated (either at people who hadn't gotten everything, or annoyed by the mechanics themselves), people leaving, and then new people joining that resulted in things not actually improving and thus ending up perpetually stuck repeating the same phases and learning nothing new.

    In contrast, in FF14 I've had no issue with PUGing the current tier EX Trials and Savage Raids. There's a very distinct progression from learning parties, clear parties and loot parties in the party finder, I've very rarely had issues filling a group, very rarely have people leave early on in learning groups, and basically never had anyone raging.

    I feel like a big part of it is how easy battle resses are in progression, with the penalty coming in the form of a debuff that still lets people keep playing, so people will be able to constantly practice, while it feels like often in GW2 there are circumstances where people can't resurrect a downed person before they die (Died in a persistent AoE, didn't get off the Gorseval platform in time, etc.), so the person that's down essentially gets no further practice for the rest of the run.

    Also, the party finder automatically allowing groups to prevent people who haven't completed it seems to have mostly dealt with what GW2's LI issue turned into. Someone who's just finished Progging it might not be the best, but they're usually good enough that it doesn't justify going out of your way to demand proof of multiple kills.

    These are differences in game design, though on the community side, there's also the fact that somehow they've managed to end up with an attitude where during progression, people have only cared about other peoples' DPS if the group actually hit an enrage. Which seems like a reasonable stance that lets people focus on just picking up the mechanics first, then tuning their DPS as they get more mastery over them.

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shaogin.2679 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @Shaogin.2679 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @Shaogin.2679 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @Shaogin.2679 said:
    Honestly the only thing I would change with Raids is to create better introductions to the mechanics of the raid fights. Going into a brand new fight and wiping over and over simply because you're trying to figure out what the hell is killing you isn't really fun, and most people will just wait for some sort of guide to come out for it. The Vale Guardian is a perfect example of a Raid boss done right. You fight the three aspects first, each of which introduce you to a mechanic of the upcoming boss one at a time. Hell, even something as simple as an npc that gives you a quick overview of the upcoming fight in some sort of cinematic or something would be a huge improvement.

    Can you give me an example of raid mechanic that cannot be figured out within 1-2 wipes?

    From the perspective of players that have troubles with them? No, I can't, because I'm not one of those players. Not everyone plays on the same level though, and people do have issues with being thrown into mechanics and learning them on the spot. Facts are facts, and giving those players some sort of introduction to those mechanics would help ease people into the fights without having to create entirely separate easy mode raids and what not. Question is, why would you be opposed to this, and if you aren't, then why pose the question?

    I am not opposed to 2nd difficulty. But I personally can't find a single mechanic in current raids that is not explained. Most of them are self-explanatory and some require you to read the tooltips on either the boss or your own buff bar. Even experienced squads with dozens of kills on particular boss can wipe before getting a successful kill. I find no problem with newbies wiping on a boss couple times to get mechanics down. Thought you might have some examples for "badly designed" mechanics. I just don't like unsubstantiated criticism.

    It's simple really, there is a large portion of players that have issues understanding the mechanics,

    Who? Where? I'd like to talk to those people. Let them speak now or forever hold their peace! :)

    They've been speaking for years now. At this point I can only assume that you are here to troll are just love being argumentative for the sake of it, but either way you aren't contributing anything of substance to this conversation at this point. If you want to hide under a rock and ignore the world around you, have fun with that, I'm not really interested.

    I literally asked for examples from this "large portion of players" you speak of. If you can't give me a single one either you never interacted with this group or you just came here to provide hollow complains about raids. Good and the bad have to be recognized if we are ever to improve raids moving forward.

  • dubs.2396dubs.2396 Member ✭✭

    I somehow doubt that. Granted I stopped playing ages ago after I discovered that they tied the first two raids into the main story, but at least back when I did play, when I looked up groups, there were never learning parties and you made your own group, the result was getting a massive carousel of people joining, getting frustrated (either at people who hadn't gotten everything, or annoyed by the mechanics themselves), people leaving, and then new people joining that resulted in things not actually improving and thus ending up perpetually stuck repeating the same phases and learning nothing new.

    Lol how can you respond to my experience with "I doubt that" and then immediately say you don't even play. Every large guild I've joined on NA (6 to 7 come to mind right now) have a Raid Training day on their weekly schedule. NA Raid Academy discord is very active with posts hourly for runs of progression groups.

    I literally used LFG with no LI requirement for weekly CM clears tonight. Some stated they had never completed the content. Few wipes on each boss, got the clears. No raging. One member left after a wipe but didn't say anything in chat. Most common thing said in chat? Thanks for the invite.

    I can't speak to the game when you quit. But this is hot off the press NA experiences.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:
    I literally asked for examples from this "large portion of players" you speak of.

    Most players i have started raiding with could not understand many of the mechanics on their own. They had to learn them from guides or other players (that learned them from guides). Veteran raiders can generally do that when faced with new encounters (by drawing on their past experiences), but even then it's not generally uniform and depends on sort of hive mind approach. And even that sometimes fails when faced with something completely new.
    And i have also known veteran raiders that never noticed some key mechanics in encounters, just because they happened to always do those encounters in groups where someone else was taking care of those. Others learned how to deal with mechanics, but often don't know why they have to do it the specific way. They just repeat what they've been taught at some point in their raiding history.

    It's for this exact reason relatively few raiding groups start new raid encounters completely blind, without attempting to get some prior knowledge about them. Most of those that start on the first day try to at least find a first kill video or encounter description from some of the leading, top tier raid guilds before. And many raiding squads never actually attempted an encounter there wasn't a guide for already.

    It's easy to talk about all mechanics being easy to understand when you watched a guide first.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Living far away from the server, raid seems too stressing for me (I mean, look, how can I be great in any endgame content, with average ping ranging from 300 to 600?)

    Easy mode could be the answer, even better if it's possible to craft legendary armors by doing only easy mode. I don't mind if it would take a long time, but it needs to be rewarding, rewarding enough for people to do it consistently. I think the best way to implement it would be a new currency, dropped from easy raids, that can be traded in for LI.

    ...if you insist that these luxury items should remain only accessible for the hardcores, fine. Another idea: a chance for a black lion key. A chance somewhere around 10% should be good enough. Apply the once per week rule on easy mode as well, of course. Implement this BL key chance not only on easy mode but also normal/hard raids with slightly higher rate and voila! One more reason to raid. I mean, fashion is the true endgame isn't it?

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    And i have also known veteran raiders that never noticed some key mechanics in encounters, just because they happened to always do those encounters in groups where someone else was taking care of those. Others learned how to deal with mechanics, but often don't know why they have to do it the specific way. They just repeat what they've been taught at some point in their raiding history.

    Very true indeed. I've participated in day one clearings of new raid wings multiple times with many different people. And when it comes to learning and adapting to mechanics you already know, it's different pace for each individual.

    It's for this exact reason relatively few raiding groups start new raid encounters completely blind, without attempting to get some prior knowledge about them. Most of those that start on the first day try to at least find a first kill video or encounter description from some of the leading, top tier raid guilds before. And many raiding squads never actually attempted an encounter there wasn't a guide for already.

    I'd give up a lot to reset my brain just so I can relive the experience of joining a raid wing without knowing anything about it. Then have fun spending time to figure out all the mechanics with my squad. For me personally, it's an amazing experience. It's extremely important to match the squad of like-minded people. If only half the squad is going to enjoy wiping so they can figure out the boss without checking any online guides - it will fall apart.

    It's easy to talk about all mechanics being easy to understand when you watched a guide first.

    But what we argue here right now is: is it possible for a new raider to figure out mechanics in current raids within 1-2 wipes? Why I'm pushing with this question so hard is because of open world people. Everyone can see the event window that describes pretty much everything you have to do in given event and yet quite many people are oblivious to what is going on, which in many cases renders then useless. Now when someone tells me that in this game, raid mechanics are badly designed such that, you desperately need introduction to those mechanics prior to boss fight in some shape or form, I simply take it with a pinch of salt.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:
    But what we argue here right now is: is it possible for a new raider to figure out mechanics in current raids within 1-2 wipes?

    Possible? Perhaps. Likely? Heavily depending on encounters, but definitely not for all groups even on easy bosses.

    I'll give you a personal example of a blind attempt at wing 6 that i participated in (in an experienced group), done when it released. It looked like this:

    CA we managed to reason the mechanics out, but it took us quite a bit more than just 1-2 wipes for that - and few more wipes to think of how to deal with some of those.
    Largos Duo was easy to figure out, and wipes were more a result of being unable to put the knowledge into practice
    Quadim however, at some point we had to look it up. I don't remember anymore what the specific problem was, but there were some elements we kept struggling with. We probably would have been able to deal with it eventually anyway, but by then it would have taken us a lot of attempts.

    And as i said, it was in an experienced group. Many of new raiders need to die several times to a mechanic to understand it even after said mechanic was explained to them, so i can easily imagine how they'd behave if faced with completely new mechanics they've never heard of.

    It might be easy for those at the very top of the raiding community, but not something one can expect even on the mid to lower tiers of it (much less from players completely new to the content).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Shaogin.2679Shaogin.2679 Member ✭✭✭

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:
    But what we argue here right now is: is it possible for a new raider to figure out mechanics in current raids within 1-2 wipes? Why I'm pushing with this question so hard is because of open world people. Everyone can see the event window that describes pretty much everything you have to do in given event and yet quite many people are oblivious to what is going on, which in many cases renders then useless. Now when someone tells me that in this game, raid mechanics are badly designed such that, you desperately need introduction to those mechanics prior to boss fight in some shape or form, I simply take it with a pinch of salt.

    This here is your issue, you're taking offense to something that never happened. I am not saying the encounters are poorly designed. I am saying that for the population that struggles with these mechanics because for some reason they have trouble grasping them, they would benefit greatly from a little hand holding that introduced them to the mechanics without sacrificing the difficulty of the content. This way, we can work on building players up, instead of dumbing content down and defeating the point of raids in the first place.

    Doc Von Doom

  • Biermeister.4678Biermeister.4678 Member ✭✭✭

    Make the content interesting and less of a grind

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raffrey.5271 said:
    Living far away from the server, raid seems too stressing for me (I mean, look, how can I be great in any endgame content, with average ping ranging from 300 to 600?)

    Easy mode could be the answer, even better if it's possible to craft legendary armors by doing only easy mode. I don't mind if it would take a long time, but it needs to be rewarding, rewarding enough for people to do it consistently. I think the best way to implement it would be a new currency, dropped from easy raids, that can be traded in for LI.

    ...if you insist that these luxury items should remain only accessible for the hardcores, fine. Another idea: a chance for a black lion key. A chance somewhere around 10% should be good enough. Apply the once per week rule on easy mode as well, of course. Implement this BL key chance not only on easy mode but also normal/hard raids with slightly higher rate and voila! One more reason to raid. I mean, fashion is the true endgame isn't it?

    Do wvw or spvp you get the armor over time even if you fail in spvp.

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021

    @Shaogin.2679 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:
    But what we argue here right now is: is it possible for a new raider to figure out mechanics in current raids within 1-2 wipes? Why I'm pushing with this question so hard is because of open world people. Everyone can see the event window that describes pretty much everything you have to do in given event and yet quite many people are oblivious to what is going on, which in many cases renders then useless. Now when someone tells me that in this game, raid mechanics are badly designed such that, you desperately need introduction to those mechanics prior to boss fight in some shape or form, I simply take it with a pinch of salt.

    This here is your issue, you're taking offense to something that never happened. I am not saying the encounters are poorly designed. I am saying that for the population that struggles with these mechanics because for some reason they have trouble grasping them, they would benefit greatly from a little hand holding that introduced them to the mechanics without sacrificing the difficulty of the content. This way, we can work on building players up, instead of dumbing content down and defeating the point of raids in the first place.

    Honestly the only thing I would change with Raids is to create better introductions to the mechanics of the raid fights.

    Unless you meant some kind of introduction outside of raids then I'll admit I did indeed misunderstood your point, I don't think my conclusion that boss designs are bad because they're missing this introduction, was far fetched. You can't call for introduction to mechanics and not say it's bad game design for raids if it's missing it.

    Now when it comes to the argument that we would need to have this type of introduction to every single boss, It would in my opinion make raids worse. Second difficulty would fit here much better. Prolonging the way to the next encounter is great when we talk about story mode. It's nice, you can relax and listen to what npcs are saying. But when it comes to clearing said content every week, I'm going to do everything to skip the roleplay I've heard hundred times already. My squad already relogs twice during Wing 7 because of this reason. I don't think there is a single solution to creating best possible experience for both groups in single-mode difficulty.

  • Shaogin.2679Shaogin.2679 Member ✭✭✭

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @Shaogin.2679 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:
    But what we argue here right now is: is it possible for a new raider to figure out mechanics in current raids within 1-2 wipes? Why I'm pushing with this question so hard is because of open world people. Everyone can see the event window that describes pretty much everything you have to do in given event and yet quite many people are oblivious to what is going on, which in many cases renders then useless. Now when someone tells me that in this game, raid mechanics are badly designed such that, you desperately need introduction to those mechanics prior to boss fight in some shape or form, I simply take it with a pinch of salt.

    This here is your issue, you're taking offense to something that never happened. I am not saying the encounters are poorly designed. I am saying that for the population that struggles with these mechanics because for some reason they have trouble grasping them, they would benefit greatly from a little hand holding that introduced them to the mechanics without sacrificing the difficulty of the content. This way, we can work on building players up, instead of dumbing content down and defeating the point of raids in the first place.

    Honestly the only thing I would change with Raids is to create better introductions to the mechanics of the raid fights.

    Unless you meant some kind of introduction outside of raids then I'll admit I did indeed misunderstood your point, I don't think my conclusion that boss designs are bad because they're missing this introduction, was far fetched. You can't call for introduction to mechanics and not say it's bad game design for raids if it's missing it.

    Now when it comes to the argument that we would need to have this type of introduction to every single boss, It would in my opinion make raids worse. Second difficulty would fit here much better. Prolonging the way to the next encounter is great when we talk about story mode. It's nice, you can relax and listen to what npcs are saying. But when it comes to clearing said content every week, I'm going to do everything to skip the roleplay I've heard hundred times already. My squad already relogs twice during Wing 7 because of this reason. I don't think there is a single solution to creating best possible experience for both groups in single-mode difficulty.

    I don't know, I feel like raids are already easy enough that they shouldn't be dumbed down further. I feel like at that point they wouldn't really be raid worthy content. I feel like it is better to improve player skill in a way that can be done in game, because many of these players that have issues aren't making use of all the external resources already available to them, and many of them feel they shouldn't have to. For me, it seems crazy not to research the fight before hand and prepare yourself, but these players seem to feel that they shouldn't have to invest the time outside of the game to research a fight for some reason. That is why I feel that an optional in game introduction to these boss mechanics might help to get more players into raiding.

    I love raids as they are, but I would also love to see more people get past a lot of the stigmas of raids and get involved in the content so that we could see more of it.

    Doc Von Doom

  • Meh we shouldn't even have raids. The game was fine without them.

    Does that hold water? No. This is the equivalent of most of the comments I see here saying there shouldn't be change. They don't hold water.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shaogin.2679 said:
    I don't know, I feel like raids are already easy enough that they shouldn't be dumbed down further. I feel like at that point they wouldn't really be raid worthy content.

    There's no objective definition of "raid worthy content". In fact, there's no such definition at all.

    Unlike what some people think, "Raids" is not a word with sacred meaning, a content that should never be contaminated by the hands and feet of filthy casuals. WoW's LFR are raids. FF XIV's Crystal Tower also is a raid. Even if they do not fulfill some people's vision of what they expect raids to be.

    I feel like it is better to improve player skill in a way that can be done in game, because many of these players that have issues aren't making use of all the external resources already available to them

    And they will not. That's a constant in most MMORPGs by the way - a huge majority of players simply do not make use of third-party, external resources. No matter how useful they might be.

    , and many of them feel they shouldn't have to.

    And they are right. If you need to use external resources to play the game, it's a sign that the game's design is lacking and/or faulty.

    I love raids as they are, but I would also love to see more people get past a lot of the stigmas of raids and get involved in the content so that we could see more of it.

    The same vision that created the idea that the content needs to be "worthy" somehow to be called a raid is the one that is creating and sustaining the stigma. In fact, that vision and the stigma are the same. Why? Because a content that the majority of players can run is an antithesis of being "raid-worthy".

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • paulelle.6813paulelle.6813 Member ✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @Essence Snow.3194 said:
    Meh we shouldn't even have raids. The game was fine without them.

    Does that hold water? No. This is the equivalent of most of the comments I see here saying there shouldn't be change. They don't hold water.

    Meh we shouldn't have pvp, wvw or open world events, game is fine without them for me.

  • Shaogin.2679Shaogin.2679 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Shaogin.2679 said:
    I don't know, I feel like raids are already easy enough that they shouldn't be dumbed down further. I feel like at that point they wouldn't really be raid worthy content.

    There's no objective definition of "raid worthy content". In fact, there's no such definition at all.

    Unlike what some people think, "Raids" is not a word with sacred meaning, a content that should never be contaminated by the hands and feet of filthy casuals. WoW's LFR are raids. FF XIV's Crystal Tower also is a raid. Even if they do not fulfill some people's vision of what they expect raids to be.

    When someone starts a sentence with "I feel like", that is a pretty good sign that what follows is their subjective opinion. So, not really sure what this rant is all about.

    I feel like it is better to improve player skill in a way that can be done in game, because many of these players that have issues aren't making use of all the external resources already available to them

    And they will not. That's a constant in most MMORPGs by the way - a huge majority of players simply do not make use of third-party, external resources. No matter how useful they might be.

    Right . . . . . yeah that is what I just said.

    , and many of them feel they shouldn't have to.

    And they are right. If you need to use external resources to play the game, it's a sign that the game's design is lacking and/or faulty.

    And this here is your subjective opinion, not fact.

    I love raids as they are, but I would also love to see more people get past a lot of the stigmas of raids and get involved in the content so that we could see more of it.

    The same vision that created the idea that the content needs to be "worthy" somehow to be called a raid is the one that is creating and sustaining the stigma. In fact, that vision and the stigma are the same. Why? Because a content that the majority of players can run is an antithesis of being "raid-worthy".

    Also not true but ok. People's views on raid worthy content is different across the board (I mean, you literally just stated that there is no objective definition), but the most common one I see is simply challenging end game content for a large group of players. The stigmas I'm referring to are people thinking that raid environments are too toxic, that it is impossible to get started without already having experience, that a very strict list of meta builds MUST be used to complete the raid, and so on. As someone got in to raiding by researching the fights and hosting training runs, and as someone that continues to raid with both experienced and training groups, I can assure people that the raiding community is not this hostile force that some make it out to be. It is actually very easy to get into raiding.

    Also, I'm kind of confused about your goal here. Did you comment just to be negative? Do you hate all concepts of raids? If so, why? I mean, I'm here advocating for better in game resources to introduce players to raid mechanics so that they don't have to use third party resources to figure it out. From what I can tell, you seem to be both for this and against this at the same time, very confusing honestly.

    Doc Von Doom

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @Shaogin.2679 said:
    Also, I'm kind of confused about your goal here. Did you comment just to be negative? Do you hate all concepts of raids? If so, why? I mean, I'm here advocating for better in game resources to introduce players to raid mechanics so that they don't have to use third party resources to figure it out. From what I can tell, you seem to be both for this and against this at the same time, very confusing honestly.

    I posted, because the belief that the content needs to be somehow "worthy" to be called raids is quite popular among raiding communities in many games. It's also one of the primary reasons behind the existence of the so called" raid stigma" you'd want players to "overcome"

    I just found it funny that you're both a believer in "raid worthiness" of content, and yet hoping people will overcome the stigma associated with that content, as those two things are two coins of the same mentality, just applied to different people.

    You're trying to both eat the cake and still have it - and that's not going to work.

    Edit: just in case you might misunderstand what i am saying:

    On one side you have players that want the content to be challenging enough to be worthy of the name "raid". On the other side you have players avoiding the content, because it's too challenging. The difference between those two groups is the level of challenge they want (or can tolerate) in their content.

    By associating raids with challenge - one aimed at the more hardcore part of community - you automatically create the "stigma" of the content being too challenging for everyone else. Thus, it's not possible to make the second group "overcome the stigma" without lowering the level of challenge.

    All the other stuff (like the belief in toxicity of raid environment, or too high "meta requirements" etc) are just a byproduct of that different approach to the content those groups have.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    Anet has indicated their intention for raids to be the most challenging PvE content in the game.

    Since raids came out, there have been requests for Anet to create an easy mode and it’s fairly obvious that Anet is aware of these. They’ve stated that fractals were a stepping stone to raids and went as far as creating strikes to also be a stepping stone.

    It’s safe to assume that at this time, Anet still intends for raids to remain the most challenging PvE content in the game.

    EDIT:

    I have no intention of arguing further about the above. All of these are actual facts based on their forum posts, articles, livestreams. They’ve given no public indication of reversing their stance which I’m aware of.

    Edit 2: Adding links as I find them.

    I can’t find the post about fractals being a stepping stone but I see many posts of people mentioning it.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    Anet has also indicated that they won't rule out story modes for raids.
    Source: https://pcgamesn.com/guild-wars-2/pvp-raids-world-restructuring

    Specifically this part:

    Is there room for a ‘story’ difficulty in raids and other high-end content?

    MZ: There is. There’s a constant, constant tug. Do we go build new raids for the raid group, or do we pull somebody to go make the old raids easier? The Bastion of the Penitent is one that we get a lot of comments on, because it’s the Saul D’Alessio story and the mursaat. It’s a very powerful, moving story, and it was very self-contained to that raid. So unless you’re a raider, you never see it.

    I would not rule it out. The thing that we need to be careful about is how we manage that expectation. Because if we go back and release ‘story mode’ for an individual raid, that is taking time away from other things like being able to build additional raid content for the raiders. We want to make sure that we’re trying to service both groups.

    What sticks out to me specifically is:

    We want to make sure that we’re trying to service both groups.

    As for strike missions, this quote is pretty interesting:

    This is an opportunity for us to find ways to service one tier and potentially service the hardcore audience that is already there.

    So we can safely assume that if Anet were to create new raids, they'd try to "service both groups".
    I also have no intention to argue, just posting these factual statements from an interview where they've played with the idea of story modes and similiar things.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    Unfortunately inferences are not fact. Nowhere did they indicate that any future raid would have a story mode. Being open to the idea is very different from saying that the next raid would have it. Them indicating that they're using strikes as a means to service both groups doesn't necessarily mean that they'll do the same for future raids.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    The "service both groups of players" was actually regarding raids, not strikes. You might have to read it again. The source is already there ;)
    So yes, that directly is a factual indication that they want to create raids that service both groups, if they ever were to create new ones.

    I've also already included what they said about SMs: servicing one tier, while potentially servicing the hardcore audience. Not sure how you mixxed that up.
    Also, no point in arguing. Anet made those factual statements, not me.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    The "service both groups of players" was actually regarding raids. You might have to read it again. The source is already there ;)
    I've also already included what they said about SMs: servicing one tier, while potentially servicing the hardcore audience.

    I edited the post as you wrote this and clarified that part.

    The issue is that you used that article to present as fact that any future raid would service both the hardcore players and those that wanted a story mode when no such statement was made. An assumption is being made on them not wanting to take time away from making new raids in order to add a story mode and them saying they're trying to create content for both groups with strikes.

    I've also already included what they said about SMs: servicing one tier, while potentially servicing the hardcore audience. Not sure how you mixxed that up.
    Also, no point in arguing. Anet made those factual statements, not me.

    Saw the edit. The only issue that I have with what you said is the assertion that new raids would service both groups. Nowhere did they make that statement so it's not a fact.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    The "service both groups of players" was actually regarding raids. You might have to read it again. The source is already there ;)
    I've also already included what they said about SMs: servicing one tier, while potentially servicing the hardcore audience.

    I edited the post as you wrote this and clarified that part.

    The issue is that you used that article to present as fact that any future raid would service both the hardcore players and those that wanted a story mode when no such statement was made. An assumption is being made on them not wanting to take time away from making new raids in order to add a story mode and them saying they're trying to create content for both groups with strikes.

    I've also edited my post as you wrote this. Sorry, but that article is just as much a fact as your link back to 2016. They've changed their stance and are "at a constant , constant tug" about story mode.
    The "We want to service both groups" is not an assumption Anet made. It's a clear statement. Not sure why you're arguing here. It's what Anet stated.

    Edit:

    Saw the edit. The only issue that I have with what you said is the assertion that new raids would service both groups. Nowhere did they make that statement so it's not a fact.

    They made that statement in the article that they "want to make sure that we’re trying to service both groups.", so it's a fact.

    Also last response, I stated I didn't want to argue about a statement factually Anet made. You'll have to argue with Anet directly about how wrong they're about their own factual statement. ;)

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    The "service both groups of players" was actually regarding raids. You might have to read it again. The source is already there ;)
    I've also already included what they said about SMs: servicing one tier, while potentially servicing the hardcore audience.

    I edited the post as you wrote this and clarified that part.

    The issue is that you used that article to present as fact that any future raid would service both the hardcore players and those that wanted a story mode when no such statement was made. An assumption is being made on them not wanting to take time away from making new raids in order to add a story mode and them saying they're trying to create content for both groups with strikes.

    I've also edited my post as you wrote this. Sorry, but that article is just as much a fact as your link back to 2016. They've changed their stance and "at a constant , constant tug".
    The "We want to service both groups" is not an assumption Anet made. It's a clear statement. Not sure why you're arguing here. It's what Anet stated.

    Edit:

    Saw the edit. The only issue that I have with what you said is the assertion that new raids would service both groups. Nowhere did they make that statement so it's not a fact.

    They made that statement in the article that they "want to make sure that we’re trying to service both groups.", so it's a fact.

    What they said is a fact regarding if they were to go back an add a story mode. It's not a fact that future raids would have it. They also said that they would not rule out having a story mode. This is not the same as saying that future raids would have it.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It’s safe to assume that at this time, Anet still intends for raids to remain the most challenging PvE content in the game.

    Sure they do. It's not like they will ever try to introduce anything more challenging, after all.

    Also, notice how that first quote came from the time where they still thought raids would be a success. And when they were talking about releasing several wings per year. Nowadays they know exactly how that ended. With release schedule not getting accelerated, and raid content ultimately getting abandoned.

    They’ve given no public indication of reversing their stance which I’m aware of.

    Indeed, because their current stance is that they can't justify any further work on raids at all. So, obviously, any attempt to make them work on raids again would require doing some rethinking first, because they would hardly attempt to once more start working on this content if it were to lead to the same end as before.

    So, basically, raids will either remain abandoned (most likely), or Anet will have to change at least some of their old design decisions and intentions about it. Thus, i would not put too much thought in all those statements.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Antioche.7034Antioche.7034 Member ✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Antioche.7034 said:
    The only way to give an incentive to raids is simply to make the rewards better. Right now 95+% of raiders are making less money than people farming AB or Dragonfall brainlessly. "Why would I take time learning raids if I can just farm and get more rewards".

    it ok to make raid to, if you not need for that spend hour on golema and learn meta-rotation. People looking game, not work.

    There are a bunch of people ready to help you progress, but there are not many people that wish to progress.

    I am not sure that this is "progress". More look like it is play by some rules.

    I've raided with a dozen of training guilds, and you don't even want to know how many people actually ask for advices on rotations etc, because it is close to 0.

    yes, beause for many players "rotation" is not game and is not fun. We want attract them ?

    Yeah, people are looking for a game but spend hours to farm dragonfall like mindless beasts, sure. Arguying rotations are work is absolutely ridiculous, you have stuff to learn in literally every game and MMOs are definately not an exception.
    "Play by some rules" : Yes, welcome to the concept of "game", that's indeed the definition.
    I don't really mind if we don't attract people that do not actually want to play a game.

    P.S : If you could try to do a little bit of effort on your posts, that'd be cool, because even if you don't speak English very well or whatever reason it's actually a bit hard to read with typos and stuff ^_^
    Though if you're on phone it might be annoying.

  • Antioche.7034Antioche.7034 Member ✭✭✭

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    I would counter that there is something especially regressive and entrenched about the GW2 playerbase.

    Exactly. If you postulate this, then there is absolutely no point in doing any changes to raids, because virtually ANY effort that has to be done will be considered too much. Then it just defeats the purpose of the raid to adapt the difficulty and people might aswell ask to transform raids into OpenWorld.
    It's hard to make generalities though, so changes might be impactful for some players and then it is just up to everyone to decide whether or not they consider it 'worth' doing. Sort of an endless debate.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It’s safe to assume that at this time, Anet still intends for raids to remain the most challenging PvE content in the game.

    Sure they do. It's not like they will ever try to introduce anything more challenging, after all.

    Also, notice how that first quote came from the time where they still thought raids would be a success. And when they were talking about releasing several wings per year. Nowadays they know exactly how that ended. With release schedule not getting accelerated, and raid content ultimately getting abandoned.

    They’ve given no public indication of reversing their stance which I’m aware of.

    Indeed, because their current stance is that they can't justify any further work on raids at all. So, obviously, any attempt to make them work on raids again would require doing some rethinking first, because they would hardly attempt to once more start working on this content if it were to lead to the same end as before.

    So, basically, raids will either remain abandoned (most likely), or Anet will have to change at least some of their old design decisions and intentions about it. Thus, i would not put too much thought in all those statements.

    So you agree. Awesome.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    So you agree. Awesome.

    You might want to reread what i said.

    Or i'll give you a TL/DR version:
    I said, that the only reason why they might not want to deviate from their original design is if they don't want to touch raids ever again. If they will decide at some point to revive raids however, some changes to original ideas are practically certain.

    I also pointed out that they were making more statements at that time, and the history has shown that at least some of them were either mistaken, or never put into practice at all.

    So, basically, those original dev statements no longer matter as much as you think they do.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cynz.9437Cynz.9437 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021
    • Make raids repeatable on daily basis however consequent kills in the weeks don't award LI and shards but just some gold/mats. That may bring motivation to do wings more often and maybe invite not so experienced players.
    • first kills in raids should give higher monetary rewards (e.g. 5 mystic coins per kill). Maybe add some collection for some cool skins that would require a lot of runs.
    • Make random queue for raids with few roles however with reduced difficulty and less rewards (no LI but maybe some kind of token so you can prove you have seen the boss).

    Meh~

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Add a easy mode, make cms more intricate to please that crowd and fix the cadense, once a year isnt sustainable, we should be getting at least 2 a year (2 3or4 encounter wings that is).

    Also keep up with drms esque content and strikes, they normalise group content in the casual playerbase which is one of the bigger issue with the playerbase, its not necessarily the dificulty its mostly that many ppl dont do group content for whatever reason.

    This last part you said is why adding an easy mode would never work for Raids. There are a lot of arguments on the forums about adding difficulty tiers, an easier mode, or a story mode for Raids. How exactly would adding that help, if something like the Shiverpeak Pass (can't get easier than that) isn't popular either. Or how the content with all the tiers (Fractals) doesn't get releases either, it's been 6 months and we are in silent mode, bugs still plague the latest fractal, it's probably abandoned, again.

    Wait until we get a stable Fractal cadence of 2 a year, and/or Strike Mission 2 a year, and IF that happens then the argument of "easy mode for Raids" or "tiers for Raids" would make any kind of sense. And besides, if an easy mode is considered they'd have to implement one for the current Raids first right? So even more time and wasted resources to make new ones.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    it is easy: make Raid Attunement 1, Raid Attunement 2, Raid Attunement 3 and Raid Attunement 4 !
    Wiht mostly same Effect type: and bonus at 1, 2,3, 4 .. on 4 same gain 7% outgoing damage, and 100 health per second, less 4% incoming damage
    Title Raid God, same requement to buy Attunement, so it on 4 it will be 2000 li, 300 matrix, ...

    Solved?

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @Shaogin.2679 said:
    Honestly the only thing I would change with Raids is to create better introductions to the mechanics of the raid fights. Going into a brand new fight and wiping over and over simply because you're trying to figure out what the hell is killing you isn't really fun, and most people will just wait for some sort of guide to come out for it. The Vale Guardian is a perfect example of a Raid boss done right. You fight the three aspects first, each of which introduce you to a mechanic of the upcoming boss one at a time. Hell, even something as simple as an npc that gives you a quick overview of the upcoming fight in some sort of cinematic or something would be a huge improvement.

    Can you give me an example of raid mechanic that cannot be figured out within 1-2 wipes?

    I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

    Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

    We also have to recognize that there are OTHER barriers that aren't related to mechanics familiarity that are also keeping players from doing raids as well, so there isn't just ONE thing that needs to happen if we want to consider how to maximize raid participation.

    I believe there is a small portion of the population that would participate in raids if the 'mechanics' barrier was overcome with more raids mechanics overlap in other parts of the game. I also believe this is the most significant way to attract more players to raids that will actually be able to succeed doing them. But it still can't be at a level where players feel punished or blocked from progression if they DON'T 'get gud' with those overlapping mechanics.

    Basically, players need more exposure to the mechanics, need enticing ways to experience those mechanics, but also have the options to not expose themselves to them if they choose not to.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I have an idea, I'm sure it'll get torn to shreds because people who actually profit from raids right now will lose something, so if you criticize my post, you need to post how you'd fix them. Almost every effective MMO out there uses them to bring people together and do them together, so there's definitely a core design flaw.

    I can identify two issues:

    1) There's no incentive for grouping with new people - the rewards only come faster the more experienced your group
    2) The scale sucks. 10 man raids don't involve many people, so they're not truly a guild-level activity. Raids are supposed to be.

    Here's the idea: move most of the rewards to guild missions tied to them: Remove all gold, magnetite shards, gaeting crystals and exotic loot from the raids during a normal clear. They’ll still drop LI/LDs and collection materials for people in the same fashion for people that want to do them outside of guild missions for legendaries.

    Then, implement a new guild mission that works as follows:

    1) It starts with a squad of 30 people, 10 in each subgroup. The mission is only startable this way. I’d be fine if this was down to 20, as that’s just shy of a wow raid, but the idea here is that more participation is better.
    2)The squad leader selects a raid, then a timer for 30mins to an hour for the guild mission appears for each sub group. Each group is ported into its own instance. The timer for the mission only counts down while the squad is in combat. The chests still drop LIs/KP/Achievement pieces
    3) If a wing is cleared, the squad is able to port to another wing of their choosing (if there’s a leutenant commander or commander in a group, they pick)
    4) At the end of all timers for each subgroup, a chest with gold, magnetite shards, gaeting crystals and exotics appears for the members (the magnetite/gaeting ratio is determined by where the time was spent in raid) . If a player was not active during the whole run, their results are scaled for the amount of time they were active.

    The missions could also be coded to allow varying sizes of squad, but with the catch that each subgroup of 10 added increases the rewards.

    This guild mission could be repeated up to a certain maximum number of times per week.

    People cannot be removed from squad. If they DC or are toxic they can be placed in one of the inactive squad groups and then replaced with someone else invited to squad.

    The goal is to keep people engaged, trying & encourage as much cooperation as possible by tying the rewards to the timer and participation, hence the timer will only go down as people participate in encounters & kicking can’t be done & there’s a cap on the number of replacements you can bring -> generous enough to allow for problems, but not so generous that you turn people into your LI machine.

    People will still only get legendary rewards from actually clearing the encounters & they can still be sold by private sellers, but the real economic rewards from raid participation will come from coordinating and working with a large number of people in a guild, hopefully turning it into a social activity.

    A common refrain will probably be: Aren’t you turning it into a participation rewards?

    My response: Isn’t it already just a participation reward? Anyone doing them now only wants a participation reward. They don’t want to teach anyone or work with anyone, that’s why there’s so much KP requirements and why people stop and/or can’t start. Now you’re rewarded by playing with and working with the community instead of grinding out that 2g + exotic + shards as fast as you can.

    Now, the only thing affected by your skill is your legendary progression rate. Squads aren’t penalized as heavily for trying a harder boss for someone’s collection but can still LI farm if that’s the goal. Guilds could even have different groups do different things -> training, LI farming, achieve farming and you join the squad that matches what you want.

    Also, this could help revitalize guilds as a mainframe for community interactions. My best experiences in this game come from working with guild mates and I think it's sad guild missions just don't cut it.

    I'd probably still box myself out of raids with this design because of my chaotic schedule, but I think it might have potential of doing good.

    A guild mission that splits the squad into three different groups working on three different goals on three different instances is not a guild activity - and is why the PVP guild missions (which do this now) are buggy as hell and dont work for anyone other than very small guilds. If they want to bring back guild missions (and they should), this is not the way to do it.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Add a easy mode, make cms more intricate to please that crowd and fix the cadense, once a year isnt sustainable, we should be getting at least 2 a year (2 3or4 encounter wings that is).

    Also keep up with drms esque content and strikes, they normalise group content in the casual playerbase which is one of the bigger issue with the playerbase, its not necessarily the dificulty its mostly that many ppl dont do group content for whatever reason.

    This last part you said is why adding an easy mode would never work for Raids. There are a lot of arguments on the forums about adding difficulty tiers, an easier mode, or a story mode for Raids. How exactly would adding that help, if something like the Shiverpeak Pass (can't get easier than that) isn't popular either. Or how the content with all the tiers (Fractals) doesn't get releases either, it's been 6 months and we are in silent mode, bugs still plague the latest fractal, it's probably abandoned, again.

    I'm not sure i agree wirh your assesment on strikes. I feel like more people are doing them than raids, but even if you're right, most of this could be chalked up to the game design.

    Mmo players are mostly driven by rewards because mmos like to tack long term goals on to players. Strikes don't stand out in that regard, they're best for new players with no crafting maxed as far as progression goes. Compounding this issue is 2 are artificially drawn out, shiverpeaks and cold war, shiver because of its puzzle, cw2 because of its pre event.

    Also, they're very integrated with ib masteries, making them fall even shorter in that niche if newer players haven't purchased the episodes with essence masteries because of some of the clutch break bars involved

    Further decreasing their effectiveness/draw is anet decided to add another completely new PVE mode to distract from them just after their launch, with its own set of masteries and a special and unique weapon collection.

    That being said, i haven't had issues finding parties for strikes when i've cared, and i'd like to more often. but generally don't have the time on top of my other objectives. The LA has disincentivized pretty much anything that doesn't give a legendary. Fractals are still somewhat relevant because of the amount of raw cash they give for buying non specific materials (mats gifts of blood, etc) they also give matrices that are needed for gen2 weapons and just about any trinket.

    I really think anet needs to pick a couple end game modes and work to make them work for all players and only add new ones as they can support them. I don't mind the season 5 experiments but i really want to see them close on something by the time EoD rolls around. Most mmos go the raiding route hence the start of this discussion.

    And sadly if i didn't know any better it feels like the current team like /played time metrics given what i've seen so far. Which is a bit dangerous given how rewarding some other content is. You wanr your players engaged in the new stuff as much as possible and they should be very cautious about farming strategies etc vs old content.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    So you agree. Awesome.

    You might want to reread what i said.

    Or i'll give you a TL/DR version:
    I said, that the only reason why they might not want to deviate from their original design is if they don't want to touch raids ever again. If they will decide at some point to revive raids however, some changes to original ideas are practically certain.

    I also pointed out that they were making more statements at that time, and the history has shown that at least some of them were either mistaken, or never put into practice at all.

    So, basically, those original dev statements no longer matter as much as you think they do.

    Well everything I said was what Anet has already stated. So either you agree with their posts or you don't. Anything else you may have included had nothing to do specifically with my post (i.e. a different, although related tangent) so there was no reason to quote me.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Add a easy mode, make cms more intricate to please that crowd and fix the cadense, once a year isnt sustainable, we should be getting at least 2 a year (2 3or4 encounter wings that is).

    Also keep up with drms esque content and strikes, they normalise group content in the casual playerbase which is one of the bigger issue with the playerbase, its not necessarily the dificulty its mostly that many ppl dont do group content for whatever reason.

    This last part you said is why adding an easy mode would never work for Raids. There are a lot of arguments on the forums about adding difficulty tiers, an easier mode, or a story mode for Raids. How exactly would adding that help, if something like the Shiverpeak Pass (can't get easier than that) isn't popular either. Or how the content with all the tiers (Fractals) doesn't get releases either, it's been 6 months and we are in silent mode, bugs still plague the latest fractal, it's probably abandoned, again.

    Wait until we get a stable Fractal cadence of 2 a year, and/or Strike Mission 2 a year, and IF that happens then the argument of "easy mode for Raids" or "tiers for Raids" would make any kind of sense. And besides, if an easy mode is considered they'd have to implement one for the current Raids first right? So even more time and wasted resources to make new ones.

    I dont view dificulty modes as a ladder for ppl to climb and learn the fights, realistically an easy mode wouldnt prepare you all that much for cms (maybe for normal if you do your own research on top). I say introduce a baseline easy mode simply to get more buck from the work already put into raids (the va, music, enemy models, etc) by reusing whats there. The fights would need to be changed up to fit the purpose of the mode, but, every raid moving forward that has a very accessible mode and a very challenging mode at least makes sure alot of the work can be experience by the highest amount of ppl possible. As for going back to do work on onlder stuff, that goes both ways, almost half the wing dont have a cm either so its an opportunity to introduce one, maybe they coupd go to the existing ones as well and change them up to fit more the challenging status that they represent.

    This last year has been in a weird spot tbh, we are pretty much experiencing the post hot drought all over again and i doubt till we get eod things will change.

    Im saying what i think they should do, the most importand thing regardless is that there needs to be a community fostering cadence of releases, the rest are toppings that imo can help grow the scene.

    Btw have you posted any strike statistics yet?

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Add a easy mode, make cms more intricate to please that crowd and fix the cadense, once a year isnt sustainable, we should be getting at least 2 a year (2 3or4 encounter wings that is).

    Also keep up with drms esque content and strikes, they normalise group content in the casual playerbase which is one of the bigger issue with the playerbase, its not necessarily the dificulty its mostly that many ppl dont do group content for whatever reason.

    This last part you said is why adding an easy mode would never work for Raids. There are a lot of arguments on the forums about adding difficulty tiers, an easier mode, or a story mode for Raids. How exactly would adding that help, if something like the Shiverpeak Pass (can't get easier than that) isn't popular either. Or how the content with all the tiers (Fractals) doesn't get releases either, it's been 6 months and we are in silent mode, bugs still plague the latest fractal, it's probably abandoned, again.

    I'm not sure i agree wirh your assesment on strikes. I feel like more people are doing them than raids, but even if you're right, most of this could be chalked up to the game design.

    Mmo players are mostly driven by rewards because mmos like to tack long term goals on to players. Strikes don't stand out in that regard, they're best for new players with no crafting maxed as far as progression goes. Compounding this issue is 2 are artificially drawn out, shiverpeaks and cold war, shiver because of its puzzle, cw2 because of its pre event.

    Also, they're very integrated with ib masteries, making them fall even shorter in that niche if newer players haven't purchased the episodes with essence masteries because of some of the clutch break bars involved

    Further decreasing their effectiveness/draw is anet decided to add another completely new PVE mode to distract from them just after their launch, with its own set of masteries and a special and unique weapon collection.

    That being said, i haven't had issues finding parties for strikes when i've cared, and i'd like to more often. but generally don't have the time on top of my other objectives. The LA has disincentivized pretty much anything that doesn't give a legendary. Fractals are still somewhat relevant because of the amount of raw cash they give for buying non specific materials (mats gifts of blood, etc) they also give matrices that are needed for gen2 weapons and just about any trinket.

    I really think anet needs to pick a couple end game modes and work to make them work for all players and only add new ones as they can support them. I don't mind the season 5 experiments but i really want to see them close on something by the time EoD rolls around. Most mmos go the raiding route hence the start of this discussion.

    And sadly if i didn't know any better it feels like the current team like /played time metrics given what i've seen so far. Which is a bit dangerous given how rewarding some other content is. You wanr your players engaged in the new stuff as much as possible and they should be very cautious about farming strategies etc vs old content.

    I think a lot of ppl struggle with the idea of playing in groups because largely outside of endgame gw2 is solo oriented with the occasional world event where you are in a soft group. Strikes and drms deal with this problem directly because they are the immideately accessible instanced group content thats related to lw story that new players are likely to engage with while gearing/lvling.
    Because of that, i think lw needs to incorporate the drm format to the story as well as having the big boss fights also exist as strikes. Its a good way imo to introduce ppl to group content (same thing also exist in ff14 and its working rather well id say) which in it self will open them up to raids and fractals more easily.

    Drm like content/strikes, fractals and raids should be the instanced content the game keeps moving forward. Its all a matter of finding a good cadense to release them.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    snip

    I agree with you about the rewards and we've seen instanced content attract a large audience, when rewards were great: "Swamps of the Mists", "Fractal scale 40", "Citadel of Flame P1" and so on. It' also completely unfair to talk about the "audience" some content attracts, when we all know things like Auric Basin, Silverwastes, Istan have been way more popular when they had inflated rewards. If players play "what they enjoy" the most, how come AB had 25 open instances when it was inflated and now it has 1 or at max 2?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2021

    @zealex.9410 said:
    I say introduce a baseline easy mode simply to get more buck from the work already put into raids (the va, music, enemy models, etc) by reusing whats there.

    That wouldn't lead to more Raids, only waste resources. We already have content which is easy (Strikes) and content that has multiple tiers (Fractals), and their release cadence is absolutely terrible, so the absence of tiers or an easy difficulty isn't the reason we don't get more Raids. Unless Strike Missions get more releases first I don't expect Fractals to do so. And unless Fractals get more stable releases, Raids won't increase either. That's my "logical path" to a stable release cadence.

    Btw have you posted any strike statistics yet?

    No. But let's take a look, as always I'll use episode start/end percentages (to illustrate the amount of total activity) with the percentages of strike missions.
    Bound by Blood: 43% / 36% / 27% (Shiverpeak Pass)
    Whisper in the Dark: 39% / 36% / 23% (Voice and Claw)
    Shadow in the Ice: 34% / 32% / 18% (Whisper of Jormag) / 19% (Fraenir of Jormag *) 7 % (Boneskinner *)
    Forging Steel: 30% / 29%
    No Quarter: 32% / 25% / 1% (Cold War**)
    Jormag Rising: 25% / 22%

    *This is the achievement to kill the boss without being downed or defeated, because the regular one from Whisper in the Dark is not available on gw2efficiency
    ** This is the achievement to kill the boss 50 times, because there is nothing else to track about this Strike Mission, actual one-kills should be much higher

    It's unfortunate that we don't have any results for Fraenir and Boneskinner without their special achievements, and no single-kill achievement for Cold War.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:
    Can you give me an example of raid mechanic that cannot be figured out within 1-2 wipes?

    You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic. Visit Auric Basin during the meta and watch as South and West get 5 players each, North gets 10, and East gets 300. Why? Because East takes no brain power to figure out. Meanwhile, North needs bit more effort and South/West are for "intelligent" players, so they barely get anyone to play there.

    Same thing with Chak Gerent, Nuhoch lane is barely filled, Ogre lane is next, Rata Novus gets loads of players, but always the majority of the players go to SCAR, because it's just pew pew DPS and don't care about anything. And I remember when Verdant Brink meta was actually being finished, 200 players on the Matriarch, 20 on the Frogs, 10 on Patriarch/Mordrem and barely 2-3 people trying Axemaster. The good old times. This is common everywhere in the game, go to fight the revamped Shatterer, and while 5-6 players are trying to break the crystals and the break bar, the majority is next to the right leg just pew pewing.

    And the best part is when players that aren't contributing to a fight while being semi-afk, then complain if the event fails. Classic Guild Wars 2!

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic. Visit Auric Basin during the meta and watch as South and West get 5 players each, North gets 10, and East gets 300. Why? Because East takes no brain power to figure out.

    And yet what seems like 80% of the bombs miss

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.

    My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.