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If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?

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  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2021

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    I say introduce a baseline easy mode simply to get more buck from the work already put into raids (the va, music, enemy models, etc) by reusing whats there.

    That wouldn't lead to more Raids, only waste resources. We already have content which is easy (Strikes) and content that has multiple tiers (Fractals), and their release cadence is absolutely terrible, so the absence of tiers or an easy difficulty isn't the reason we don't get more Raids. Unless Strike Missions get more releases first I don't expect Fractals to do so. And unless Fractals get more stable releases, Raids won't increase either. That's my "logical path" to a stable release cadence.

    Btw have you posted any strike statistics yet?

    No. But let's take a look, as always I'll use episode start/end percentages (to illustrate the amount of total activity) with the percentages of strike missions.
    Bound by Blood: 43% / 36% / 27% (Shiverpeak Pass)
    Whisper in the Dark: 39% / 36% / 23% (Voice and Claw)
    Shadow in the Ice: 34% / 32% / 18% (Whisper of Jormag) / 19% (Fraenir of Jormag *) 7 % (Boneskinner *)
    Forging Steel: 30% / 29%
    No Quarter: 32% / 25% / 1% (Cold War**)
    Jormag Rising: 25% / 22%

    *This is the achievement to kill the boss without being downed or defeated, because the regular one from Whisper in the Dark is not available on gw2efficiency
    ** This is the achievement to kill the boss 50 times, because there is nothing else to track about this Strike Mission, actual one-kills should be much higher

    It's unfortunate that we don't have any results for Fraenir and Boneskinner without their special achievements, and no single-kill achievement for Cold War.

    My view in this subject is what you described with the metas above, most ppl just want to pew pew with no real thought. If you take a raid and only just change the fight, keeping everything else the same, release it and suddenly the participation in raids doubles because of it then i think that gives one more reason to keep releasing raids because the instances, music, dialogue etc are made for multiple modes and the only real time goes to figuring out the fight for each mode.

    If you were to take the easy lanes from metas i reckon the environment would become more heated and some ppl would flat out drop the activity. They go there because theres a braidless role to fill.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2021

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.

    My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

    OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2021

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.

    My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

    OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

    Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

    I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

    Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

    That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...
    But here we are, for some reason people that are uninterested in completing actual raid encounters (and figure them out by themselves or watch/read one of many outside resources to guide them by hand through every mechanic) will come to the forum and pretend that they want to "save raids". No, they don't want to "save raids", they aren't interested in them in the first place. If they are interested in rewards, then that's just another proof that increasing rewards isn't the answer, because apparently they already want them but still can't be bothered with the raids themselves.
    Learn the content or leave it and... you know... don't get rewarded for it.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.

    My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

    OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

    Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

    I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

    Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

    That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such an great "mechanic"...
    But here we are, for some reason people that are uninterested in completing actual raid encounters (and figure them out by themselves or watch/read one of many outside resources to guide them by hand through every mechanic) will come to the forum and pretend that they want to "save raids". No, they don't want to "save raids", they aren't interested in them in the first place. If they are interested in rewards, then that's just another prove that increasing rewards isn't an answer, because apparently they already want them but still can't be bothered with the raids themselves.
    Learn the content or leave it and... you know... don't get rewarded for it.

    I don't disagree with this. The thread here is just a hypothetical discussion about how raids could change to be attractive to more players and I don't think there is ANY question that something needs to change if that's to happen. Frankly, I don't think making changes to raids can bring back their development because it's clear to me Anet has moved on ... but if more raid development was being considered, I know what changes I would propose if it was to happen AND if a reboot was to be more successful than the initial release.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • @frareanselm.1925 said:
    talking with friends we agree that the raid mechanics require teamspeak/discord participation, and most people dont have microphone or headset, for example, that's dissuasive.

    I know you're saying it's just an example, but I'd be extremely surprised if "most people" playing games - especially online games - did not have a headset or mic. I can picture a decent amount of people having social anxiety or whatever and not wanting to USE voice channels, but a large percentage of gamers would definitely have a mic or headset.

    One thing I will say though is you're right about the Discord/etc thing - it's a bit silly that this game doesn't have some form of integrated team voice chat and having to use another platform for that is annoying (even though I already have a Discord account).

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    reduce boss HP twice, and make add achievement kill every boss 1000 times. Accept one kill per week, and add one ap for each kill

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Fangoth.4503Fangoth.4503 Member ✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    it is easy: make Raid Attunement 1, Raid Attunement 2, Raid Attunement 3 and Raid Attunement 4 !
    Wiht mostly same Effect type: and bonus at 1, 2,3, 4 .. on 4 same gain 7% outgoing damage, and 100 health per second, less 4% incoming damage
    Title Raid God, same requement to buy Attunement, so it on 4 it will be 2000 li, 300 matrix, ...

    Solved?

    It won't solve anything:
    -people cry they can't raid so how they gonna get 2k LI?
    -people that will get it don't need the extra stats.

    Raid doesn't have to be accessible to all though.
    Having main content being personal story to feed casual gameplay with here and there a new raid/fract/dungeon/PvP map/wvw map (or whatever PvP/wvw player likes) to keep more committed players around is fine.
    One of each per year while keeping le map would be already awesome, but two would be better 😅

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2021

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    Raid doesn't have to be accessible to all though.

    True. Still, we're talking here about increasing their participation, and you're not likely to do that without opening their accessibility to at least some degree.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Shadowmoon.7986Shadowmoon.7986 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Release raids on a regular schedule using industry norms, 6 to 7 month. When a gamemode is no longer being developed, it will wither. Look at pvp and wvw as examples. Easymode raids will not work, look at strikes.
    Now look at fractals, with the introduction of cm100, i see alot more cm groups than before.

  • @CasualElitist.8795 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Seems more like a way to kill raids than help them.

    How would you fix them?

    I would fix players instead, who talk about this huge entry barrier for raids, while they don't understand it's the endgame content and autoattacking in green random gear is not what you are expected to do here, who refuse to gear properly and join training runs to actually learn the content instead of whining for easy mode raids. Raids are easy.

    then give raids endgame reward, like WvW was supposed endgame and the rewards are kitten. Lets see how many players would be left.

    But seriously, you make a mode for 1% of the player base and then act surprised that participation is low?

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Pacificterror.7805 said:

    @frareanselm.1925 said:
    talking with friends we agree that the raid mechanics require teamspeak/discord participation, and most people dont have microphone or headset, for example, that's dissuasive.

    I know you're saying it's just an example, but I'd be extremely surprised if "most people" playing games - especially online games - did not have a headset or mic. I can picture a decent amount of people having social anxiety or whatever and not wanting to USE voice channels, but a large percentage of gamers would definitely have a mic or headset.

    One thing I will say though is you're right about the Discord/etc thing - it's a bit silly that this game doesn't have some form of integrated team voice chat and having to use another platform for that is annoying (even though I already have a Discord account).

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.

    My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

    OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

    Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

    I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

    Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

    That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such an great "mechanic"...
    But here we are, for some reason people that are uninterested in completing actual raid encounters (and figure them out by themselves or watch/read one of many outside resources to guide them by hand through every mechanic) will come to the forum and pretend that they want to "save raids". No, they don't want to "save raids", they aren't interested in them in the first place. If they are interested in rewards, then that's just another prove that increasing rewards isn't an answer, because apparently they already want them but still can't be bothered with the raids themselves.
    Learn the content or leave it and... you know... don't get rewarded for it.

    I don't disagree with this. The thread here is just a hypothetical discussion about how raids could change to be attractive to more players and I don't think there is ANY question that something needs to change if that's to happen. Frankly, I don't think making changes to raids can bring back their development because it's clear to me Anet has moved on ... but if more raid development was being considered, I know what changes I would propose if it was to happen AND if a reboot was to be more successful than the initial release.

    I think it would be a mistake for Anet to abandon raids altogether. There's too much cultural overhead around them in MMOs in general, it will look bad for GW2 to have an abandoned raid system in the long run.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 12, 2021

    I've editted my OP with a system that I think makes way more sense.

    Here is my new idea (also editted into the OP):

    I feel like it would be a mistake for Anet to abandon raids because of the cultural overhead they carry in MMOs at large. In fact what they've already done with Dungeons is bad IMO, but I'll address that later. Given the negative feedback on my original idea and other ideas presented, I have a better idea, and still think people should talk on this thread.

    I can identify these issues:

    1) There's no incentive for grouping with new people - the rewards only come faster the more experienced your group
    2) People in GW2 at large are used to pugging, even if they enjoy group content. This goes for fractals, dungeons DRMs. I rarely run with guildies and guildies rarely ping. I usually do a scheduled activity with my guild of a different sort if anything at all.
    3) Raids tend to have "pony trick" mechanics with devastating results if people don't know it. They usually require skills beyond just dodging a breaking bars that are normally only applicable that fight (Druid pusher in VG, Druid push in SH (still different than VG though as push skills are different between the 2), hand kite in Deimos, Mushrooms in Sloth, etc. This means getting in a PuG with anyone is a massive liability.
    4) Raid training - culturally I have to say this is a very foreign concept. Most training runs I've been in don't necessarily focus on kills which I've never seen in another MMO and is a testament to the technical complexity of GW2 raids. This is demoralizing in the context of trying to break into the larger raid scene - people want to see KP to want you around.
    5) An unsolvable problem - scale. I say unsolvable because making the parties bigger with the pony trick mechanics will only make them more frustrating IMO. I don't see Anet doing an entire refactor of old raids to solve this. And maybe they shouldn't. The pony tricks, as annoying as they

    I think that Strikes and raids need to be merged, i.e. there is a strike version and a raid version for each encounter. This solves #2. The strike versions are intended to be PuGGable and all operate much like IB strikes in terms of reward structure, the only caveat being Maguuma ones give magnetite shards instead of IB strike crystals and the PoF ones give gaeting crystals instead of IB strike Crystals. The strike rewards a special crafting material in the weekly strike chest that can convert into LIs and LDs, LIs don't drop in the strike versions (maybe you get 1 of this currency per boss per week in the chest but you need 3 to buy an LI, this makes raids still superior for getting legendary gear and rewards in general). The echo system could easily be overloaded to accomplish this. People will still be rewarded more for doing raids than strikes and people who can't commit to statics can still experience the content and eventually get the rewards (albeit slower, which is fair in context).

    To toss a bone to the raid community, they could add raid versions of all the current IB strikes. The IB raids could drop 3x of the above mentioned LI/LD conversion currency per boss so they could be used as progress towards legendary rewards for current raiders.

    Additionally, the strike versions should be done in a way that mimics the actual raid mechanics, so if players notice they do well in the strike, then they can go ahead and do the raid version with their current group (it would be nice if the strike mission grades them on mechanics and suggest they continue, but that's asking for a lot. Maybe after completing the strike it gives a poll to the group asking if they want to attempt the raid and somewhere on the strike UI it explains what passing the raid version in the strike looks like so the group can have some good judgement on their decision). An example I've experienced like this was Argus the unmaker in Legion -> I did LFR tons and tons and enough of the mechanics were there that I did fine in my Heroic PuG the night before BFA launch (snagging my spellwing in just the nick of time!). This solves #3 and makes strikes a true bridge between raids and strikes, which they aren't currently. #3 builds on the issue in #2, you have to be in a group that has the pony trick experience in order to succeed in raids. Basically you can PuG the strikes until you find yourself in a good enough group to do the raid version.

    To solve #1, I would have extra rewards for helping a group beat a raid with at least 3 players that haven't finished it that week yet. Probably mostly raw gold 1-2 and maybe 1 rare. That way if you like to lurk strikes and are a proficient raider, it could be very lucrative and you could help the community by training people in your strikes.

    number 4 is solved by the above. The strikes themselves become raid training and now the community can loosely help each other and then commit to raiding if they happen to find themselves in a proficient group.

    I got nothing for #5 but feel like it's a non-issue if there's more community involvement as a whole.

    But really, doing this, everyone wins. People who like strikes get more content and more incentive to do them, raiders get more raids. ANd it's not really a heavy lift for Anet either. It's mostly copy pasta of current content with tweaking on both ends, the IB strikes to raid conversions and vice versa. Also, most modern MMOs have different difficulty settings, it's a glaring omission that the raid system was never adapted to the hyper casual nature of this MMO.

    A much larger issue I want to briefly address is the fact that Anet is accumulating way too many disparate systems with all their PVE content experiments. I think they need a raid system (groups of 10) and a dungeons system (groups of 5) and all content of that size plays into that system. My above suggestions create this cohesive raid system. I would tweak DRMs and Dungeons to work with Fractals as part of a greater dungeon system (and they could even add dailies for each dungeon/raid type to encourage more participation). I feel like abandoned content that doesn't integrate with anything else won't age well. Perhaps dungeons should reward some fractal currencies if you have the masteries, same for DRMs. They could take the more popular content from the non-fractal modes and make fractals out of them.

  • Xerac.1542Xerac.1542 Member ✭✭

    I agree with your statement that we have too many different instanced pve stuff...
    Don't get me wrong I don't want to get rid of it but I guess as a new player it can be overwhelming.

    Now on topic.
    I really wish we would get more raids because they are nicely designed and really fun to play but I am afraid no matter what effort anyone puts in the majority of players won't be interested.
    I pugged all the way from start to legendary to a point I just do raids for fun and don't need any rewards.
    I even tried getting some complaining guildmates into it by doing training runs with some experienced players filling more critical roles and newcomers joining as dps mostly.
    The problem I encountered more times than I like to admit about my guildies ist the following:
    VG:
    All good, some ports, some pulls on seekers, some fails.
    Once most people got the mechanics down we got to one of the root problems. Healers dealing ~3% damage - fine.
    Some DPS dealing ~22% damage - fine.
    Some DPS dealing ~3% damage - panic!

    Again guildmates so open conversation.
    "You could bring your numbers up by doing xyz, maybe try swapping to another weapon/build/gearset."

    "Why would I want to play like that if I don't like it?"

    That is the problem.
    People want to raid but don't want to adapt to the encounter/group play style

    And that is why all effort put in won't revive raids because the people who are down to it will get it done but the majority will just try and leave after not being successful with their approach.

    I would still buy the expansion if all new stuff it gives is some balance shakeup and 3 new raids tho.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    It won't solve anything:
    -people cry they can't raid so how they gonna get 2k LI?

    as I say we have some ways - remove any timers from any boss, and reduce bosses hp per 50%

    -people that will get it don't need the extra stats.

    oh, this is GuildWars2, most of than want shinny buff and god of Raids title.

    Having main content being personal story to feed casual gameplay with here and there a new raid/fract/dungeon/PvP map/wvw map (or whatever PvP/wvw player likes) to keep more committed players around is fine.1

    yes, raid content looks very strange and should be reworked ofc.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • WindBlade.8749WindBlade.8749 Member ✭✭✭

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.

    And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

    This, specially when this game raids are his own things like fractals, it's derived from raids, but it's cleary not the classics raids.

  • Mahou.3924Mahou.3924 Member ✭✭✭

    That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it.

    I agree, even though I can only speak for myself. There's nothing that would make me interested in raids. I fully admit that I'm too much into a story-only mindset where I treat GW2 (and FF14 which I play too) to 99% as single player games, and this mindset will most likely never change. I respect the concept of raids and the different mentality you need for it, but the very idea to practice rotations over and over (or mechanics at which I even suck in the solo missions) is simply not my cup of tea. So I care enough about my own entertainment but have enough common sense to not step into content where I'd actively interfer with the fun of others (except of maybe public DRMs; mea culpa).
    For reference, I had a hard time opening up to FF14's system of putting story behind dungeons and trials (glorified boss battles with early-on 3 others and currently 7 other players), no matter how easy they are.

  • @Xerac.1542 said:
    "Why would I want to play like that if I don't like it?"

    That is the problem.
    People want to raid but don't want to adapt to the encounter/group play style

    yeah that's why i abandonned the idea of running with their guild and won't recommand it

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    It won't solve anything:
    -people cry they can't raid so how they gonna get 2k LI?

    as I say we have some ways - remove any timers from any boss, and reduce bosses hp per 50%

    So they phase every 3sec? no thanks

    -people that will get it don't need the extra stats.

    oh, this is GuildWars2, most of than want shinny buff and god of Raids title.

    yeah title and AP should be removed from raid imo, it drag people in for the wrong reasons

    Having main content being personal story to feed casual gameplay with here and there a new raid/fract/dungeon/PvP map/wvw map (or whatever PvP/wvw player likes) to keep more committed players around is fine.1

    yes, raid content looks very strange and should be reworked ofc.

    Raid are fine, boss lack a bit of hp as DPS increased a lot (mainly due to repeating the same boss over and over rather than having a new wing) but other than that its ok.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 12, 2021

    @Mahou.3924 said:

    That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it.

    I agree, even though I can only speak for myself. There's nothing that would make me interested in raids. I fully admit that I'm too much into a story-only mindset where I treat GW2 (and FF14 which I play too) to 99% as single player games, and this mindset will most likely never change. I respect the concept of raids and the different mentality you need for it, but the very idea to practice rotations over and over (or mechanics at which I even suck in the solo missions) is simply not my cup of tea. So I care enough about my own entertainment but have enough common sense to not step into content where I'd actively interfer with the fun of others (except of maybe public DRMs; mea culpa).
    For reference, I had a hard time opening up to FF14's system of putting story behind dungeons and trials (glorified boss battles with early-on 3 others and currently 7 other players), no matter how easy they are.

    I think this is false, plenty of people are willing to do 10+ man content, even build up roles for it, strikes prove that. The overhead is the problem, you're really only effective in statics and everything about this game outside of raids was supposed to not be like traditional MMOs that required them. I think if people could be confident the groups they're bringing could do it, they would and my new suggestion helps create that bridge from PuG players to being able to raid.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I think this is false, plenty of people are willing to do 10+ man content, even build up roles for it, strikes prove that.

    Notice, that at this point most of the players that do strikes are the same players that do raids. This is even more true in the more difficult strikes (Voice and Boneskinner), which are, from the point of view of most players, completely indistinguishable from raids.

    The overhead is the problem, you're really only effective in statics and everything about this game outside of raids was supposed to not be like traditional MMOs that required them. I think if people could be confident the groups they're bringing could do it, they would and my new suggestion helps create that bridge from PuG players to being able to raid.

    As i pointed out, strikes failed too, for exactly that reason - even if the earlier strikes are much easier, their general design is the same as raid one. There's a reason why "public" groups for those failed very fast - they could not guarantee a working group composition. Which may not have been important for shiverpeaks (due to how easy it is), but started to become an issue in anything above that. And the moment you start needing certain roles, and certain levels of competence with said roles, you're back to the original point that makes raids unapproachable to the majority.

    (That's, of course, only about the single boss battle strikes. Forging Steel is something completely different - it's more of a dungeon instance, and designed in such a way that practically all group compositions can do it.)

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    One big gate that's keeping people from raiding is the false perception that raids are harder than they truly are. And Kitty's not speaking about possible new raiders who are hesitating due to difficulty but about people who insist on metametameta though good portion of raid community probably doesn't even know how meta works. Let alone what meta even means. Big problem is, as Kitty's ranted about for years now, that big majority of raiders go for "max dps comp" they're taught since "high dps means no mechs". But many raiders overestimate their skills, eat mechs they can't afford and due to low support 'cause metametameta, the heals aren' t up to cover for their mistakes. It's actually very rare for any squad to hit enrage at most bosses so bringing a powerful healer to cover for druid (when it comes to sheer healing power, druid is half a healer and thus squads typically have 1,5 healers or less) would actually increase the chances of scoring a kill drastically. Heal scrapper, renegade, ele, mace healbrand and heal scourge are such healers, in the order of strongest to weakest. Esp. Heal scrapper's ridiculous amount of heals, utility and remote resses and scourge's barrier and resses and might would make many of the easier bosses(W1-4) pretty much 95% certain kills even with worse squads. There's also bunch of dps builds with pseudo-immortality for minor dps cost, like power ps berserker (insane self-heals due to Mending Might), power renegade, power scrapper (most OP build), condi Tormenting rune mirage, Condi tormenting renegade,Power IP Staff Mastery staff DD etc. Simple builds like shortbow soulbeast, kitless holo and power assassin+dwarf renegade would also lower the entry threshold by eliminating need to learn complex rotations.

    Tbh, if people started using some of the builds Kitty mentioned, the chance of successful kills would increase a ton

    It's Kitty. The young lady who recorded videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty and streams at Twitch.tv/LadyKittyGW2

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 13, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    2) People in GW2 at large are used to pugging, even if they enjoy group content. This goes for fractals, dungeons DRMs. I rarely run with guildies and guildies rarely ping. I usually do a scheduled activity with my guild of a different sort if anything at all.

    It's not pugging that people in GW2 are after. It's leeching. The reason Raids have lower participation than other parts of the game is because it's much harder to leech in them, because in order to do so you must take advantage of other people. In the open world, barely enough people deal with mechanics, they'd rather stand still and afk auto attack (go see Shatterer for example). Or when a meta event has multiple lanes, the majority picks the easiest one, ignoring those that require some actual brain power (Octovine or Chak Gerent are great examples). Or in other cases wait for a burn phase, go dps to get their participation and then go afk waiting for their rewards (Tequatl is a prime example). After all, most mechanics are removed during burn phases.

    This leeching is what creates the meme of "you want to press 1 and F on your keyboard" and "easy open world". If everyone in meta events did that, then no meta event would succeed. Fortunately, some players are actually playing the content, doing the mechanics, and earning rewards for everyone else.

    When a game trains its players to leech and earn the same rewards as someone actively playing the content, you get into this situation. I mean, players are even leeching in PUBLIC DRMs, which are really really easy (without CMs). How to teach players not to leech is gonna be very difficult, especially after years of encouraging it by design, but it's the only possible way to increase participation in instanced content. Because leeching there is usually harder.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.

    My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

    OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

    Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

    I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

    Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

    That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

    If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

  • Been playing the game since launch and only started raiding back in Feb. The biggest obstacle for me to get into raiding is not knowing where to look. LFG is filled with sellers. It wasn't until I found out about RA did I start raiding. I've completed w1-3 but still don't feel confident enough to start my own group. It would be nice if the raiding guilds advertised somewhere

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.

    My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

    OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

    Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

    I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

    Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

    That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

    If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

    I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:

    • No LI/LD acquisition
    • No achievement/collection progression
    • Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)
  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.

    My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

    OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

    Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

    I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

    Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

    That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

    If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

    I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:

    • No LI/LD acquisition
    • No achievement/collection progression
    • Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

    Yup, this is pretty much my constant opinion about this topic, not sure where @Tyson.5160 took the idea that "I just don't want it in general" from.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.

    My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

    OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

    Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

    I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

    Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

    That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

    If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

    I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:

    • No LI/LD acquisition
    • No achievement/collection progression
    • Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

    And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.

    My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

    OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

    Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

    I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

    Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

    That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

    If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

    I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:

    • No LI/LD acquisition
    • No achievement/collection progression
    • Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

    And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

    Yes. They can use the easy mode to experience the story or to learn raid encounters. It should not be an easy way to raid rewards no matter the acquisition pacing.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 13, 2021

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It should not be an easy way to raid rewards no matter the acquisition pacing.

    And, if done right, for most players it wouldn't be easy.
    An actual normal mode just should not be excessively hard (like current raids seem to be for the majority).
    Just because top end players would consider it easy, doesn't mean it would end up be easy for the majority of players.
    What top end players consider hard and easy should never be a measurement for difficulties targetting a broader audience.

    There'd be no harm in reduced drop rates and amount that are dropped, even if it would only turn out to be 1 one LI/LD per wing endboss.
    It should be of no concern to top end players how other people choose to earn their legendary things.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It should not be an easy way to raid rewards no matter the acquisition pacing.

    And, if done right, for most players it wouldn't be easy.
    An actual normal mode just should not be excessively hard (like current raids seem to be for the majority).
    Just because top end players would consider it easy, doesn't mean it would end up be easy for the majority of players.
    What top end players consider hard and easy should never be a measurement for difficulties targetting a broader audience.

    There'd be no harm in reduced drop rates and amount that are dropped, even if it would only turn out to be 1 one LI/LD per wing endboss.
    It should be of no concern to top end players how other people choose to earn their legendary things.

    No. If they want existing raid rewards then they can do the raids on the normal difficulty which is what we have right now.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It should not be an easy way to raid rewards no matter the acquisition pacing.

    And, if done right, for most players it wouldn't be easy.
    An actual normal mode just should not be excessively hard (like current raids seem to be for the majority).
    Just because top end players would consider it easy, doesn't mean it would end up be easy for the majority of players.
    What top end players consider hard and easy should never be a measurement for difficulties targetting a broader audience.

    There'd be no harm in reduced drop rates and amount that are dropped, even if it would only turn out to be 1 one LI/LD per wing endboss.
    It should be of no concern to top end players how other people choose to earn their legendary things.

    No. If they want existing raid rewards then they can do the raids on the normal difficulty which is what we have right now.

    Fueki brings up a point, why does it matter to the top end players.

  • Xerac.1542Xerac.1542 Member ✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    No. If they want existing raid rewards then they can do the raids on the normal difficulty which is what we have right now.

    Fueki brings up a point, why does it matter to the top end players.

    I would say that interferes with the pride and joy people feel by accomplishing stuff others have not done (yet).
    Don't you feel better if you do something well other can't?
    The same applies to all rewards. There is an easy way to get your LI on easy mode at a reduced rate... It is called Escort.

    I am not against an easy mode to learn mechanics but I feel like it won't work because there wouldn't be meaningful rewards besides the experience you gain to get into "real" raids and adding an extra step does not motivate players who don't like raids now to suddenly like them more.
    I would be happy if I and all the other people would be wrong and this easy fix would revive raid development.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 13, 2021

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    No. If they want existing raid rewards then they can do the raids on the normal difficulty which is what we have right now.

    To me, there is nothing normal at that excessive tediousness that the current raids consist of.
    How does it even hurt you when more people can enjoy the same content on a normal mode and might actually find enjoyment out of that?
    If raids became more accessible via normal modes and more people enjoy them, Arenanet might actually decide to try and developing more raids.
    That's be a net positive for everyone involved.

    Players are generally not going to get better or improve enough to match the current raids, so they won't participating in them as they are now.
    This means the participation will stay too low for Arenanet to consider raids at their current hardness worth putting any resources into.

    Praying for raids to remain as exclusive as they are now is literally the same as praying for no new wings to be released.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xerac.1542 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    No. If they want existing raid rewards then they can do the raids on the normal difficulty which is what we have right now.

    Fueki brings up a point, why does it matter to the top end players.

    I would say that interferes with the pride and joy people feel by accomplishing stuff others have not done (yet).
    Don't you feel better if you do something well other can't?
    The same applies to all rewards. There is an easy way to get your LI on easy mode at a reduced rate... It is called Escort.

    I am not against an easy mode to learn mechanics but I feel like it won't work because there wouldn't be meaningful rewards besides the experience you gain to get into "real" raids and adding an extra step does not motivate players who don't like raids now to suddenly like them more.
    I would be happy if I and all the other people would be wrong and this easy fix would revive raid development.

    Yeah, very doable, as well paying for runs with Ingame gold for achievements or gems and like you said farming escort.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    No. If they want existing raid rewards then they can do the raids on the normal difficulty which is what we have right now.

    To me, there is nothing normal at that excessive tediousness that the current raids consist of.
    How does it even hurt you when more people can enjoy the same content on a normal mode and might actually find enjoyment out of that?
    If raids became more accessible via normal modes and more people enjoy them, Arenanet might actually decide to try and developing more raids.
    That's be a net positive for everyone involved.

    Players are generally not going to get better or improve enough to match the current raids, so they won't participating in them as they are now.
    This means the participation will stay too low for Arenanet to consider raids at their current hardness worth putting any resources into.

    Praying for raids to remain as exclusive as they are now is literally the same as praying for no new wings to be released.

    Please don't conflate not having existing raid rewards available in an easy mode with not having an easy mode altogether. They're not the same thing.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.

    My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

    OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

    Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

    I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

    Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

    That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

    If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

    I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:

    • No LI/LD acquisition
    • No achievement/collection progression
    • Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

    And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

    Role of what you're proposing is "just getting rewards", role of what you don't want to become a thing is "easing people into content in the form it's made to be played".

    Okay, so let’s say that people do easy mode which hypothetically takes them 5 x longer to get the Armor. What’s the problem with this?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 13, 2021

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.

    My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

    OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

    Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

    I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

    Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

    That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

    If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

    I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:

    • No LI/LD acquisition
    • No achievement/collection progression
    • Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

    And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

    Role of what you're proposing is "just getting rewards", role of what you don't want to become a thing is "easing people into content in the form it's made to be played".

    Okay, so let’s say that people do easy mode which hypothetically takes them 5 x longer to get the Armor. What’s the problem with this?

    It creates the same situation as in WvW or Spvp:
    Players are incentivized to just "afk", aka not put in any effort, the content to get the most reward at minimum effort. It creates a short term spike of players who want the easy rewards, and creates long-term problems for the content by not incentivizing players actually engage and master content.

    The net result is what we see in Spvp now, and to some extent in WvW though it takes far longer there: players who "farmed" their rewards on low effort mode, even at extremely increased time needed, drop out of the content again and are not converted to active players and the modes are deader for it.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.

    My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

    OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

    Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

    I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

    Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

    That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

    If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

    I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:

    • No LI/LD acquisition
    • No achievement/collection progression
    • Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

    And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

    Role of what you're proposing is "just getting rewards", role of what you don't want to become a thing is "easing people into content in the form it's made to be played".

    Okay, so let’s say that people do easy mode which hypothetically takes them 5 x longer to get the Armor. What’s the problem with this?

    It creates the same situation as in WvW or Spvp:
    Players are incentivized to just "afk", aka not put in any effort, the content to get the most reward at minimum effort. It creates a short term spike of players who want the easy rewards, and creates long-term problems for the content by not incentivizing players actually engage and master content.

    The net result is what we see in Spvp now, and to some extent in WvW though it takes far longer there: players who "farmed" their rewards on low effort mode, even at extremely increased time needed, drop out of the content again and are not converted to active players and the modes are deader for it.

    The short term spike could be drawn out depending on how many LI are required. I don’t see this as any different then players beating normal mode getting their Armor and not coming back. In this case you are drawing out the content in an easier mode especially if they want all 3 Armor sets. Some people after becoming more comfortable might opt for normal mode to gain rewards faster.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 13, 2021

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.

    My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

    OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

    Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

    I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

    Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

    That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

    If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

    I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:

    • No LI/LD acquisition
    • No achievement/collection progression
    • Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

    And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

    Role of what you're proposing is "just getting rewards", role of what you don't want to become a thing is "easing people into content in the form it's made to be played".

    Okay, so let’s say that people do easy mode which hypothetically takes them 5 x longer to get the Armor. What’s the problem with this?

    It creates the same situation as in WvW or Spvp:
    Players are incentivized to just "afk", aka not put in any effort, the content to get the most reward at minimum effort. It creates a short term spike of players who want the easy rewards, and creates long-term problems for the content by not incentivizing players actually engage and master content.

    The net result is what we see in Spvp now, and to some extent in WvW though it takes far longer there: players who "farmed" their rewards on low effort mode, even at extremely increased time needed, drop out of the content again and are not converted to active players and the modes are deader for it.

    The short term spike could be drawn out depending on how many LI are required. I don’t see this as any different then players beating normal mode getting their Armor and not coming back. In this case you are drawing out the content in an easier mode especially if they want all 3 Armor sets. Some people after becoming more comfortable might opt for normal mode to gain rewards faster.

    True, it is similar to players "finishing" their armor in normal mode. Notice though that in this case normal mode and easy mode would start competing and players who are not interested in this mode but are here only for the rewards would be drawn far more to easy mode.

    That is without considering the time it takes to actually get the rewards in normal mode. The bonding, social interaction with others, adapting to group play, improvement and process a player goes through to actually beat normal mode, which is not present in easy mode or at the very least not as much (visible in strikes which have no serious necessity for actual coordination and group play and thus has no meaningful social aspect to it).

    The short term spike being drawn out is a weak argument, since if the time it takes is far to long (say 10 times as long as normal mode) the incentive is not given. If it is to short, it will directly undermine any reason to play normal mode to begin with. This is very visible in Spvp and WvW which both have differing time commitments for legendary armor, yet both are affected the same way in regards to players who are not interested in the content: no net player gain long-term (with some slight gain for WvW due to the sheer time commitment and nature of how rewards work in that mode increasing with time spent).

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.

    My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

    OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

    Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

    I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

    Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

    That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

    If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

    I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:

    • No LI/LD acquisition
    • No achievement/collection progression
    • Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

    And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

    Role of what you're proposing is "just getting rewards", role of what you don't want to become a thing is "easing people into content in the form it's made to be played".

    Okay, so let’s say that people do easy mode which hypothetically takes them 5 x longer to get the Armor. What’s the problem with this?

    It creates the same situation as in WvW or Spvp:
    Players are incentivized to just "afk", aka not put in any effort, the content to get the most reward at minimum effort. It creates a short term spike of players who want the easy rewards, and creates long-term problems for the content by not incentivizing players actually engage and master content.

    The net result is what we see in Spvp now, and to some extent in WvW though it takes far longer there: players who "farmed" their rewards on low effort mode, even at extremely increased time needed, drop out of the content again and are not converted to active players and the modes are deader for it.

    The short term spike could be drawn out depending on how many LI are required. I don’t see this as any different then players beating normal mode getting their Armor and not coming back. In this case you are drawing out the content in an easier mode especially if they want all 3 Armor sets. Some people after becoming more comfortable might opt for normal mode to gain rewards faster.

    True, it is similar to players "finishing" their armor in normal mode. Notice though that in this case normal mode and easy mode would start competing and players who are not interested in this mode but are here only for the rewards would be drawn far more to easy mode.

    That is without considering the time it takes to actually get the rewards in normal mode. The bonding, social interaction with others, adapting to group play, improvement and process a player goes through to actually beat normal mode, which is not present in easy mode or at the very least not as much (visible in strikes which have no serious necessity for actual coordination and group play and thus has no meaningful social aspect to it).

    The short term spike being drawn out is a weak argument, since if the time it takes is far to long (say 10 times as long as normal mode) the incentive is not given. If it is to short, it will directly undermine any reason to play normal mode to begin with. This is very visible in Spvp and WvW which both have differing time commitments for legendary armor, yet both are affected the same way in regards to players who are not interested in the content: no net player gain long-term (with some slight gain for WvW due to the sheer time commitment and nature of how rewards work in that mode increasing with time spent).

    The time taking too long would be the incentive to move to normal mode. This would in theory have more people in raids. Some might opt to stay in easy mode for all of it while others after doing easy mode long enough might jump to normal mode after they have become more comfortable.

    This wouldn’t be competing with current raid resources because people doing raids in normal probably wouldn’t opt to do it slowly if they are comfort with normal mode. Those starting with easy mode would be players that wouldn’t have been in raids in the first place.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2021

    Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

    Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

    Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

    I also made the suggestion in the distant past of following the same scheme as PVP/WvW. Give easy mode legendary Armor, but in the precursor skin similar to how it works for PvP/ WvW , then have the skin upgraded when normal is complete.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

    Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

    Probably because the discussion here is to think of ways to open up raiding, not lock it down with the iron fist. I mean, if people think the way raids are is the way it should be, then they shouldn't have a problem with the lack of raid releases in the last 2 years either.

    The fact is that if you don't want to entice non-raiders to participate in raiding content, then that content remains irrelevant to the game into the future as well. I think we all know the consequences of content that isn't relevant to enough people in this game.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

    Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

    Probably because the discussion here is to think of ways to open up raiding, not lock it down with the iron fist. I mean, if people think the way raids are is the way it should be, then they shouldn't have a problem with the lack of raid releases in the last 2 years either.

    The fact is that if you don't want to entice non-raiders to participate in raiding content, then that content remains irrelevant to the game into the future as well. I think we all know the consequences of content that isn't relevant to enough people in this game.

    And how would letting them get all of the raid rewards more easily help?

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2021

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

    Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

    Probably because the discussion here is to think of ways to open up raiding, not lock it down with the iron fist. I mean, if people think the way raids are is the way it should be, then they shouldn't have a problem with the lack of raid releases in the last 2 years either.

    The fact is that if you don't want to entice non-raiders to participate in raiding content, then that content remains irrelevant to the game into the future as well. I think we all know the consequences of content that isn't relevant to enough people in this game.

    And how would letting them get all of the raid rewards more easily help?

    Let's not fool ourselves here ... if something is made easy but most of the raids rewards aren't available for doing it, people aren't going to be any more likely to do it than they do if it's hard WITH the rewards. I mean, the model for Fractals rewards is a great example of how the rewards can be structured.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

    Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

    Probably because the discussion here is to think of ways to open up raiding, not lock it down with the iron fist. I mean, if people think the way raids are is the way it should be, then they shouldn't have a problem with the lack of raid releases in the last 2 years either.

    The fact is that if you don't want to entice non-raiders to participate in raiding content, then that content remains irrelevant to the game into the future as well. I think we all know the consequences of content that isn't relevant to enough people in this game.

    And how would letting them get all of the raid rewards more easily help?

    Let's not fool ourselves here ... if something is made easy but most of the raids rewards aren't available for doing it, people aren't going to be any more likely to do it if it's hard WITH the rewards. I mean, the model for Fractals rewards is a great example.

    And giving players an easier method to get raid rewards doesn’t mean it’ll be beneficial to the mode.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2021

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

    Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

    Probably because the discussion here is to think of ways to open up raiding, not lock it down with the iron fist. I mean, if people think the way raids are is the way it should be, then they shouldn't have a problem with the lack of raid releases in the last 2 years either.

    The fact is that if you don't want to entice non-raiders to participate in raiding content, then that content remains irrelevant to the game into the future as well. I think we all know the consequences of content that isn't relevant to enough people in this game.

    And how would letting them get all of the raid rewards more easily help?

    Let's not fool ourselves here ... if something is made easy but most of the raids rewards aren't available for doing it, people aren't going to be any more likely to do it if it's hard WITH the rewards. I mean, the model for Fractals rewards is a great example.

    And giving players an easier method to get raid rewards doesn’t mean it’ll be beneficial to the mode.

    I don't believe that's the case ... I'm sure Fractal data suggests LOTS of people would do easier content to get the rewards from doing group content like this .. and it doesn't stop people from doing the hard Fractals either for the SIMILAR reward.

    I mean, how do you measure beneficial to the mode? Does the current raid model benefit from this 'ONE MODE = HARD" heavy handed approach? I don't think it does.

    it's pretty simple where I sit. I don't have the answer for what will be beneficial, but I do know how raids are currently implemented AREN'T beneficial to it. If people are going to limit their thinking to barely increase enticing non-raiders to join ... then those contributions to the discussions have little to no value to begin with.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2021

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

    Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

    Probably because the discussion here is to think of ways to open up raiding, not lock it down with the iron fist. I mean, if people think the way raids are is the way it should be, then they shouldn't have a problem with the lack of raid releases in the last 2 years either.
    The fact is that if you don't want to entice non-raiders to participate in raiding content, then that content remains irrelevant to the game into the future as well. I think we all know the consequences of content that isn't relevant to enough people in this game.

    Have anyone even brought it up in this thread? Because if not, then I don't see the relevance? What I constantly see, though, are people that want to get rewards for not completing/learning the content. Yup, that's all. OP included. This thread, titled "if you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you...?" is not primarily made by people that want more raids. It's made by a people that want the rewards without playing through the content.

    And I fail to see how implementing easy mode without rewards as a way to help new people [which for some reason are still scared of the current one] learn the content and then funnel them into actual regular raiding in an effort to actually influence the regular raiding playerbase is somehow "locking it down with the iron fist".

    Ah and OP's claim that raids are somehow inaccessible to pugs (or even more: "you're really only effective in statics") is completely made up.

  • Xerac.1542Xerac.1542 Member ✭✭
    edited April 14, 2021

    Okay, after @Obtena.7952 pointed it out and reading through the posts I see two problems. People doing raids right now simply want new players to adapt to the current state while "new" players want a stepping stone. Fine.

    First I want to give an example with skyscale:
    I really wanted it but hate doing story... My options were
    A ) sit through story and map grind until I got it since Anet made it that way
    B ) not get it
    C ) try to propose an option to obtain it I like more and hope for it to be implemented

    I went with A since C will never happen and I really wanted it.
    Same applies to raids currently.

    How about this stepping stone for the easy mode to normal mode transition for newcomers without thinking about what exactly has to be adjusted to make it accessible.
    In easy mode you can not get LI/LD but special tokens like magnetite but instead of ascended gear you can buy legendary grade gear right away. BUT it is only usable in raid environments(easy/normal).
    People would be able to learn mechanics and get rewards progressing them towards normal raids with the ability to swap and tune builds at a much lower cost/effort to form functional comps.

    This is the only way I can think of without interfering with other aspects of the game.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2021

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

    Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

    Probably because the discussion here is to think of ways to open up raiding, not lock it down with the iron fist. I mean, if people think the way raids are is the way it should be, then they shouldn't have a problem with the lack of raid releases in the last 2 years either.

    The fact is that if you don't want to entice non-raiders to participate in raiding content, then that content remains irrelevant to the game into the future as well. I think we all know the consequences of content that isn't relevant to enough people in this game.

    And how would letting them get all of the raid rewards more easily help?

    Let's not fool ourselves here ... if something is made easy but most of the raids rewards aren't available for doing it, people aren't going to be any more likely to do it if it's hard WITH the rewards. I mean, the model for Fractals rewards is a great example.

    And giving players an easier method to get raid rewards doesn’t mean it’ll be beneficial to the mode.

    I don't believe that's the case ... I'm sure Fractal data suggests LOTS of people would do easier content to get the rewards from doing group content like this .. and it doesn't stop people from doing the hard Fractals either for the SIMILAR reward.

    I mean, how do you measure beneficial to the mode? Does the current raid model benefit from this 'ONE MODE = HARD" heavy handed approach? I don't think it does.

    it's pretty simple where I sit. I don't have the answer for what will be beneficial, but I do know how raids are currently implemented AREN'T beneficial to it. If people are going to limit their thinking to barely increase enticing non-raiders to join ... then those contributions to the discussions have little to no value to begin with.

    Raids getting an easy mode with the ability to get legendary armor will remove practically all incentive for players to start doing raids at normal. Players will indeed flock to the easy mode but it'll will not be like what people on here claim will happen. They won't learn the mechanics. They won't try to get better. All that they're do is take the path of least resistance to clear everything for the week as quickly as they can. Normal raids will still continue to lose players as there's no incentive for newer players to play them. Once players have their legendary armor, they'll abandon raids and we'll be right back where we are with no actual benefit provided to the actual raiding population.

    Raids require decent DPS, specific roles, and knowledge of various mechanics which put much more personal responsibility on the player than elsewhere in the game. This is what is actually holding players back. Anet made the rest of PvE so brain dead easy, with no real risk of failure, that this is the state of the player base. When they tried to gradually scale up enemies to include mechanics and such, there was push back. There are many many players who do PvE content without putting in any real effort. Those who tried to do public DRMs, and even CMs, just saw how bad the situation actually is. You have players literally taking 8+ min to do the second phase of the Metrica DRM boss on normal.

    The only real option is to incentivize players to perform better and learn the mechanics. Giving them access to the rewards isn't going to do that. The majority of those wanting an easy mode do not want to do that. They just want to obtain the rewards without putting in the effort and time it takes.