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Do not believe the teef mains

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  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021

    I'll be honest, even I have to put my bias aside and admit that Thief got shafted.

    It's been over a year now. They still haven't gotten rid of the MULTIPLE 300 cd traits in Acrobatics.
    Not even core engi traitlines have been butchered that hard.

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Kondor.2904 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Backstab does much more than 4k. As I have just learned the hard way. 8k hits from stealth are very much possible. Pair it with a heartseeker that you cannot see because the game takes ~1.5 seconds to render their model and you've got a recipee for fun.

    Disclaimer: The above poster may have have been outskilled by a thief and is using a forum post as a means to vent his frustrations. Take all messages therin with a grain of salt... Get it... salt... This guy salty as hell.

    Edit: Fix stealth render lag. Is really annoying

    4k is from the standard build. You can push it to 6k if you go max glass cannon with extremely supoptimal traits that turn off too easily. 8k is only possible with that + might stacking + vuln stacking. So not really out of stealth, they had to be in the fight for a long time.

    Right, I guess I had 50 stacks of vuln on me kappa

    How old is this screenshot? Is this from 2006? 10k backstabs haven't been a thing in a loooong time. Even then they werent much of a thing outside of some people memeing with crit strikes.

    Sweats nervously

    The "Balance" is a fantasy -- another mortal superstition.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Raiden The Beast.3016 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    most mobile class in the game should never be able to 1v1 people, if you think otherwise you are wrong

    I still do not get it, thief has several builds for teamfight, several for +1 ganks and i am pretty sure sidenoder build can be made by losing some mobility.

    It has builds for +1s and decaps. Thats it. It has no teamfighting builds (thats what thief is worst at, they were never even remotely good at teamfighting, its why thief is the worst class in zergs and small-scale group roaming in WvW), and it has no sidenoder build.

    DE, the prep build and for some reason we have reached P/P not being a meme build and becoming legit way to play. Do you even play the class that you so love or you just tunnel one build ?

    This forum, quality input "P/P is not a meme build" ... 🥴

    If I can pull wins with axe axe berserker you have no excuses about P/P thief. The damage in game is not high enough to be killed fast so it can be played fine enough. FT engi is kinda of a meme yet it is good enough to be played in ranked same goes for minion necro builds. The moment the enemy comp can't handle a meme build it is no longer a meme build. And ou all the "It's not in the MAT" kitten doesn't fly for me, the winning team(worms or smth) plays the same kitten over and over 2 renegades and a support(some FOTM) and the contender instead of trying new comps to counter it, they copy them and lose cause the other guys know their own comp perfectly.

    Cool, I can win on core grenade engineer. Does it make any of these builds not meme-tier? No, they're meme-tier. I like meme-tier, but its not good. Youre handicapping yourself. FT Engineer is also a meme, but to put it into a perspective, P/P thief is to FT engineer, what FT engineer is to Renegade. Its that bad.

    /s And maybe thief players are not good as they think they are and can't win the AT. Throwing shade HEYOO./s

    Yeah, thats totally why thief was almost entirely absent from the hardstuck league. Not because it sucks.

    All I see is excuses and whining from thief players in the forum and not their own but the PVP one, all the while there are classes that can't even smell the meta like warrior or ele where they get a build a for a month that gets delete after a patch or mesmer where chrono is a jumbled mess and mirage has one kitten dodge and yet there are people still playing them and winning even with the handicap.

    They all suck. They all should get changes to help them. Why do you think "thief is terrible right now, but thats ok, because warrior and ele are also terrible" is a gotcha?

    Do I have to make a kitten build play it enough times to get noticed, maybe get it on a AT stream or something, then post it and spread it around and wait for people to complain about it after, so the great thief mains can pick it up to play it.

    Oh please, do try. Try to prove that thief is totally good, and that the best players in the world were wrong for not playing it. Good luck though, you'll need it. And likely fail even with it.

    You continue to say thief bad, thief bad but you haven't given good example that makes it worse than the rest specks, it has received the same treatment as the rest. I explained why it is not in ATs. People build counter rotation comps since only a thief counters a thief these days and that can go either way while disregarding the effort of the other 8 players so people play it safe and maybe boring way, people are using strategy to deny volatility. Thief is just fine in queues since there is no communication and can do its job perfectly fine.

    Simple. Thief is a class that had superior mobility in the form of shortbow 5, but had that counterbalanced by its lack of damage, survivability, utility and healing. Now Shortbow 5 was nerfed, leaving it without the superior mobility, but maintaining its lack of everything else. In simpler terms, thief is just an inferior Ranger/Revenant now. People arent "building counter rotation comps", because for that to make sense, people would have to be playing thief in the first place. No, thief isnt played because thief is bad. No one is building to counter thief because no one plays thief because thief is bad. At this point, Ranger/Revenant counter thief with ease. As does everything else, really.

    Also about the FT thing it shows that you don't really understand how the game works , FT SCRAPPER smorks renegade since it can shut down every everything on it, certain other class is the problem with FT ill let you guess which one.

    If that were the case, it would've been played in the hardstuck league, given that thief was completely absent from it (which I assume you tried to allude to). Its not the case. So it wasnt.

    I could make a build that works but i don't really enjoy thief gameplay that much and spending hours just to spite people while not enjoying the game is not something i would like to do and I don't want to make some cheese that will backfire on me afterwards again . Also I don't really want to theory craft builds for people that don't deserve it.

    You think too highly of yourself if you think you could while all the best players in the world couldnt. Of course you cant make that build. It doesnt exist. Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    OU NO THIEF LOST 1 out of 3 leaps from shortbow get over it already. Thief ain't bad the AT meta will shift at some point and thief will be back and will be fine as is now.
    Also yes I think highly of myself about general knowledge of the game since I mostly rely on out knowing instead of out skilling people to win, also from the hot takes about other classes from the supposedly the best thief (don't know which one is the big deal know though) Sind is that he doesn't really play much the other classes and also iII think he doesn't know what makes them tick, so I think I can do better job at making a build for general queue play, which wouldn't be really that hard since thief is fine there.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Raiden The Beast.3016 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    most mobile class in the game should never be able to 1v1 people, if you think otherwise you are wrong

    I still do not get it, thief has several builds for teamfight, several for +1 ganks and i am pretty sure sidenoder build can be made by losing some mobility.

    It has builds for +1s and decaps. Thats it. It has no teamfighting builds (thats what thief is worst at, they were never even remotely good at teamfighting, its why thief is the worst class in zergs and small-scale group roaming in WvW), and it has no sidenoder build.

    DE, the prep build and for some reason we have reached P/P not being a meme build and becoming legit way to play. Do you even play the class that you so love or you just tunnel one build ?

    This forum, quality input "P/P is not a meme build" ... 🥴

    If I can pull wins with axe axe berserker you have no excuses about P/P thief. The damage in game is not high enough to be killed fast so it can be played fine enough. FT engi is kinda of a meme yet it is good enough to be played in ranked same goes for minion necro builds. The moment the enemy comp can't handle a meme build it is no longer a meme build. And ou all the "It's not in the MAT" kitten doesn't fly for me, the winning team(worms or smth) plays the same kitten over and over 2 renegades and a support(some FOTM) and the contender instead of trying new comps to counter it, they copy them and lose cause the other guys know their own comp perfectly.

    Cool, I can win on core grenade engineer. Does it make any of these builds not meme-tier? No, they're meme-tier. I like meme-tier, but its not good. Youre handicapping yourself. FT Engineer is also a meme, but to put it into a perspective, P/P thief is to FT engineer, what FT engineer is to Renegade. Its that bad.

    /s And maybe thief players are not good as they think they are and can't win the AT. Throwing shade HEYOO./s

    Yeah, thats totally why thief was almost entirely absent from the hardstuck league. Not because it sucks.

    All I see is excuses and whining from thief players in the forum and not their own but the PVP one, all the while there are classes that can't even smell the meta like warrior or ele where they get a build a for a month that gets delete after a patch or mesmer where chrono is a jumbled mess and mirage has one kitten dodge and yet there are people still playing them and winning even with the handicap.

    They all suck. They all should get changes to help them. Why do you think "thief is terrible right now, but thats ok, because warrior and ele are also terrible" is a gotcha?

    Do I have to make a kitten build play it enough times to get noticed, maybe get it on a AT stream or something, then post it and spread it around and wait for people to complain about it after, so the great thief mains can pick it up to play it.

    Oh please, do try. Try to prove that thief is totally good, and that the best players in the world were wrong for not playing it. Good luck though, you'll need it. And likely fail even with it.

    You continue to say thief bad, thief bad but you haven't given good example that makes it worse than the rest specks, it has received the same treatment as the rest. I explained why it is not in ATs. People build counter rotation comps since only a thief counters a thief these days and that can go either way while disregarding the effort of the other 8 players so people play it safe and maybe boring way, people are using strategy to deny volatility. Thief is just fine in queues since there is no communication and can do its job perfectly fine.

    Simple. Thief is a class that had superior mobility in the form of shortbow 5, but had that counterbalanced by its lack of damage, survivability, utility and healing. Now Shortbow 5 was nerfed, leaving it without the superior mobility, but maintaining its lack of everything else. In simpler terms, thief is just an inferior Ranger/Revenant now. People arent "building counter rotation comps", because for that to make sense, people would have to be playing thief in the first place. No, thief isnt played because thief is bad. No one is building to counter thief because no one plays thief because thief is bad. At this point, Ranger/Revenant counter thief with ease. As does everything else, really.

    Also about the FT thing it shows that you don't really understand how the game works , FT SCRAPPER smorks renegade since it can shut down every everything on it, certain other class is the problem with FT ill let you guess which one.

    If that were the case, it would've been played in the hardstuck league, given that thief was completely absent from it (which I assume you tried to allude to). Its not the case. So it wasnt.

    I could make a build that works but i don't really enjoy thief gameplay that much and spending hours just to spite people while not enjoying the game is not something i would like to do and I don't want to make some cheese that will backfire on me afterwards again . Also I don't really want to theory craft builds for people that don't deserve it.

    You think too highly of yourself if you think you could while all the best players in the world couldnt. Of course you cant make that build. It doesnt exist. Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    OU NO THIEF LOST 1 out of 3 leaps from shortbow get over it already. Thief ain't bad the AT meta will shift at some point and thief will be back and will be fine as is now.

    I don't think you understand. Shortbow 5 isn't just one of thieves skills. It was thief. Shortbow 5, and shortbow 5 alone, was the only reason thief was good. There is no other clas as reliant on one skill as thief and shortbow 5. Thief is bad. No matter how the meta will shift, thief will not return in its current state. It will always be outclassed by ranger and revenant, who give up 1 second on their rotation speed for much higher damage, survivability and utility.

    Also yes I think highly of myself about general knowledge of the game since I mostly rely on out knowing instead of out skilling people to win, also from the hot takes about other classes from the supposedly the best thief (don't know which one is the big deal know though) Sind is that he doesn't really play much the other classes and also iII think he doesn't know what makes them tick, so I think I can do better job at making a build for general queue play, which wouldn't be really that hard since thief is fine there.

    Its clear you do. And its clear you let your complete ignorance of how thief functions not get in the way of that. Its clear you dont know what makes thief tick, so tis clear you can't do a better job than any thief player at making a build for thief. Hence why you dont understand that thief is bad everywhere.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Raiden The Beast.3016 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    most mobile class in the game should never be able to 1v1 people, if you think otherwise you are wrong

    I still do not get it, thief has several builds for teamfight, several for +1 ganks and i am pretty sure sidenoder build can be made by losing some mobility.

    It has builds for +1s and decaps. Thats it. It has no teamfighting builds (thats what thief is worst at, they were never even remotely good at teamfighting, its why thief is the worst class in zergs and small-scale group roaming in WvW), and it has no sidenoder build.

    DE, the prep build and for some reason we have reached P/P not being a meme build and becoming legit way to play. Do you even play the class that you so love or you just tunnel one build ?

    This forum, quality input "P/P is not a meme build" ... 🥴

    If I can pull wins with axe axe berserker you have no excuses about P/P thief. The damage in game is not high enough to be killed fast so it can be played fine enough. FT engi is kinda of a meme yet it is good enough to be played in ranked same goes for minion necro builds. The moment the enemy comp can't handle a meme build it is no longer a meme build. And ou all the "It's not in the MAT" kitten doesn't fly for me, the winning team(worms or smth) plays the same kitten over and over 2 renegades and a support(some FOTM) and the contender instead of trying new comps to counter it, they copy them and lose cause the other guys know their own comp perfectly.

    Cool, I can win on core grenade engineer. Does it make any of these builds not meme-tier? No, they're meme-tier. I like meme-tier, but its not good. Youre handicapping yourself. FT Engineer is also a meme, but to put it into a perspective, P/P thief is to FT engineer, what FT engineer is to Renegade. Its that bad.

    /s And maybe thief players are not good as they think they are and can't win the AT. Throwing shade HEYOO./s

    Yeah, thats totally why thief was almost entirely absent from the hardstuck league. Not because it sucks.

    All I see is excuses and whining from thief players in the forum and not their own but the PVP one, all the while there are classes that can't even smell the meta like warrior or ele where they get a build a for a month that gets delete after a patch or mesmer where chrono is a jumbled mess and mirage has one kitten dodge and yet there are people still playing them and winning even with the handicap.

    They all suck. They all should get changes to help them. Why do you think "thief is terrible right now, but thats ok, because warrior and ele are also terrible" is a gotcha?

    Do I have to make a kitten build play it enough times to get noticed, maybe get it on a AT stream or something, then post it and spread it around and wait for people to complain about it after, so the great thief mains can pick it up to play it.

    Oh please, do try. Try to prove that thief is totally good, and that the best players in the world were wrong for not playing it. Good luck though, you'll need it. And likely fail even with it.

    You continue to say thief bad, thief bad but you haven't given good example that makes it worse than the rest specks, it has received the same treatment as the rest. I explained why it is not in ATs. People build counter rotation comps since only a thief counters a thief these days and that can go either way while disregarding the effort of the other 8 players so people play it safe and maybe boring way, people are using strategy to deny volatility. Thief is just fine in queues since there is no communication and can do its job perfectly fine.

    Simple. Thief is a class that had superior mobility in the form of shortbow 5, but had that counterbalanced by its lack of damage, survivability, utility and healing. Now Shortbow 5 was nerfed, leaving it without the superior mobility, but maintaining its lack of everything else. In simpler terms, thief is just an inferior Ranger/Revenant now. People arent "building counter rotation comps", because for that to make sense, people would have to be playing thief in the first place. No, thief isnt played because thief is bad. No one is building to counter thief because no one plays thief because thief is bad. At this point, Ranger/Revenant counter thief with ease. As does everything else, really.

    Also about the FT thing it shows that you don't really understand how the game works , FT SCRAPPER smorks renegade since it can shut down every everything on it, certain other class is the problem with FT ill let you guess which one.

    If that were the case, it would've been played in the hardstuck league, given that thief was completely absent from it (which I assume you tried to allude to). Its not the case. So it wasnt.

    I could make a build that works but i don't really enjoy thief gameplay that much and spending hours just to spite people while not enjoying the game is not something i would like to do and I don't want to make some cheese that will backfire on me afterwards again . Also I don't really want to theory craft builds for people that don't deserve it.

    You think too highly of yourself if you think you could while all the best players in the world couldnt. Of course you cant make that build. It doesnt exist. Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    OU NO THIEF LOST 1 out of 3 leaps from shortbow get over it already. Thief ain't bad the AT meta will shift at some point and thief will be back and will be fine as is now.

    I don't think you understand. Shortbow 5 isn't just one of thieves skills. It was thief. Shortbow 5, and shortbow 5 alone, was the only reason thief was good. There is no other clas as reliant on one skill as thief and shortbow 5. Thief is bad. No matter how the meta will shift, thief will not return in its current state. It will always be outclassed by ranger and revenant, who give up 1 second on their rotation speed for much higher damage, survivability and utility.

    Also yes I think highly of myself about general knowledge of the game since I mostly rely on out knowing instead of out skilling people to win, also from the hot takes about other classes from the supposedly the best thief (don't know which one is the big deal know though) Sind is that he doesn't really play much the other classes and also iII think he doesn't know what makes them tick, so I think I can do better job at making a build for general queue play, which wouldn't be really that hard since thief is fine there.

    Its clear you do. And its clear you let your complete ignorance of how thief functions not get in the way of that. Its clear you dont know what makes thief tick, so tis clear you can't do a better job than any thief player at making a build for thief. Hence why you dont understand that thief is bad everywhere.

    Strawman allot aren't we for someone that thinks that shortbow is the only way to play . Pretty big words for someone that doesn't know how to theory craft his own main class.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Raiden The Beast.3016 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    most mobile class in the game should never be able to 1v1 people, if you think otherwise you are wrong

    I still do not get it, thief has several builds for teamfight, several for +1 ganks and i am pretty sure sidenoder build can be made by losing some mobility.

    It has builds for +1s and decaps. Thats it. It has no teamfighting builds (thats what thief is worst at, they were never even remotely good at teamfighting, its why thief is the worst class in zergs and small-scale group roaming in WvW), and it has no sidenoder build.

    DE, the prep build and for some reason we have reached P/P not being a meme build and becoming legit way to play. Do you even play the class that you so love or you just tunnel one build ?

    This forum, quality input "P/P is not a meme build" ... 🥴

    If I can pull wins with axe axe berserker you have no excuses about P/P thief. The damage in game is not high enough to be killed fast so it can be played fine enough. FT engi is kinda of a meme yet it is good enough to be played in ranked same goes for minion necro builds. The moment the enemy comp can't handle a meme build it is no longer a meme build. And ou all the "It's not in the MAT" kitten doesn't fly for me, the winning team(worms or smth) plays the same kitten over and over 2 renegades and a support(some FOTM) and the contender instead of trying new comps to counter it, they copy them and lose cause the other guys know their own comp perfectly.

    Cool, I can win on core grenade engineer. Does it make any of these builds not meme-tier? No, they're meme-tier. I like meme-tier, but its not good. Youre handicapping yourself. FT Engineer is also a meme, but to put it into a perspective, P/P thief is to FT engineer, what FT engineer is to Renegade. Its that bad.

    /s And maybe thief players are not good as they think they are and can't win the AT. Throwing shade HEYOO./s

    Yeah, thats totally why thief was almost entirely absent from the hardstuck league. Not because it sucks.

    All I see is excuses and whining from thief players in the forum and not their own but the PVP one, all the while there are classes that can't even smell the meta like warrior or ele where they get a build a for a month that gets delete after a patch or mesmer where chrono is a jumbled mess and mirage has one kitten dodge and yet there are people still playing them and winning even with the handicap.

    They all suck. They all should get changes to help them. Why do you think "thief is terrible right now, but thats ok, because warrior and ele are also terrible" is a gotcha?

    Do I have to make a kitten build play it enough times to get noticed, maybe get it on a AT stream or something, then post it and spread it around and wait for people to complain about it after, so the great thief mains can pick it up to play it.

    Oh please, do try. Try to prove that thief is totally good, and that the best players in the world were wrong for not playing it. Good luck though, you'll need it. And likely fail even with it.

    You continue to say thief bad, thief bad but you haven't given good example that makes it worse than the rest specks, it has received the same treatment as the rest. I explained why it is not in ATs. People build counter rotation comps since only a thief counters a thief these days and that can go either way while disregarding the effort of the other 8 players so people play it safe and maybe boring way, people are using strategy to deny volatility. Thief is just fine in queues since there is no communication and can do its job perfectly fine.

    Simple. Thief is a class that had superior mobility in the form of shortbow 5, but had that counterbalanced by its lack of damage, survivability, utility and healing. Now Shortbow 5 was nerfed, leaving it without the superior mobility, but maintaining its lack of everything else. In simpler terms, thief is just an inferior Ranger/Revenant now. People arent "building counter rotation comps", because for that to make sense, people would have to be playing thief in the first place. No, thief isnt played because thief is bad. No one is building to counter thief because no one plays thief because thief is bad. At this point, Ranger/Revenant counter thief with ease. As does everything else, really.

    Also about the FT thing it shows that you don't really understand how the game works , FT SCRAPPER smorks renegade since it can shut down every everything on it, certain other class is the problem with FT ill let you guess which one.

    If that were the case, it would've been played in the hardstuck league, given that thief was completely absent from it (which I assume you tried to allude to). Its not the case. So it wasnt.

    I could make a build that works but i don't really enjoy thief gameplay that much and spending hours just to spite people while not enjoying the game is not something i would like to do and I don't want to make some cheese that will backfire on me afterwards again . Also I don't really want to theory craft builds for people that don't deserve it.

    You think too highly of yourself if you think you could while all the best players in the world couldnt. Of course you cant make that build. It doesnt exist. Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    OU NO THIEF LOST 1 out of 3 leaps from shortbow get over it already. Thief ain't bad the AT meta will shift at some point and thief will be back and will be fine as is now.

    I don't think you understand. Shortbow 5 isn't just one of thieves skills. It was thief. Shortbow 5, and shortbow 5 alone, was the only reason thief was good. There is no other clas as reliant on one skill as thief and shortbow 5. Thief is bad. No matter how the meta will shift, thief will not return in its current state. It will always be outclassed by ranger and revenant, who give up 1 second on their rotation speed for much higher damage, survivability and utility.

    Also yes I think highly of myself about general knowledge of the game since I mostly rely on out knowing instead of out skilling people to win, also from the hot takes about other classes from the supposedly the best thief (don't know which one is the big deal know though) Sind is that he doesn't really play much the other classes and also iII think he doesn't know what makes them tick, so I think I can do better job at making a build for general queue play, which wouldn't be really that hard since thief is fine there.

    Its clear you do. And its clear you let your complete ignorance of how thief functions not get in the way of that. Its clear you dont know what makes thief tick, so tis clear you can't do a better job than any thief player at making a build for thief. Hence why you dont understand that thief is bad everywhere.

    Strawman allot aren't we for someone that thinks that shortbow is the only way to play . Pretty big words for someone that doesn't know how to theory craft his own main class.

    I don't think you know what a strawman is. And you clearly dont know how thief works if you think shortbow isnt mandatory. I know how to theory craft it, because I used to play it, and I know how it works. What it can and cannot do. You clearly do not.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Raiden The Beast.3016 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    most mobile class in the game should never be able to 1v1 people, if you think otherwise you are wrong

    I still do not get it, thief has several builds for teamfight, several for +1 ganks and i am pretty sure sidenoder build can be made by losing some mobility.

    It has builds for +1s and decaps. Thats it. It has no teamfighting builds (thats what thief is worst at, they were never even remotely good at teamfighting, its why thief is the worst class in zergs and small-scale group roaming in WvW), and it has no sidenoder build.

    DE, the prep build and for some reason we have reached P/P not being a meme build and becoming legit way to play. Do you even play the class that you so love or you just tunnel one build ?

    This forum, quality input "P/P is not a meme build" ... 🥴

    If I can pull wins with axe axe berserker you have no excuses about P/P thief. The damage in game is not high enough to be killed fast so it can be played fine enough. FT engi is kinda of a meme yet it is good enough to be played in ranked same goes for minion necro builds. The moment the enemy comp can't handle a meme build it is no longer a meme build. And ou all the "It's not in the MAT" kitten doesn't fly for me, the winning team(worms or smth) plays the same kitten over and over 2 renegades and a support(some FOTM) and the contender instead of trying new comps to counter it, they copy them and lose cause the other guys know their own comp perfectly.

    Cool, I can win on core grenade engineer. Does it make any of these builds not meme-tier? No, they're meme-tier. I like meme-tier, but its not good. Youre handicapping yourself. FT Engineer is also a meme, but to put it into a perspective, P/P thief is to FT engineer, what FT engineer is to Renegade. Its that bad.

    /s And maybe thief players are not good as they think they are and can't win the AT. Throwing shade HEYOO./s

    Yeah, thats totally why thief was almost entirely absent from the hardstuck league. Not because it sucks.

    All I see is excuses and whining from thief players in the forum and not their own but the PVP one, all the while there are classes that can't even smell the meta like warrior or ele where they get a build a for a month that gets delete after a patch or mesmer where chrono is a jumbled mess and mirage has one kitten dodge and yet there are people still playing them and winning even with the handicap.

    They all suck. They all should get changes to help them. Why do you think "thief is terrible right now, but thats ok, because warrior and ele are also terrible" is a gotcha?

    Do I have to make a kitten build play it enough times to get noticed, maybe get it on a AT stream or something, then post it and spread it around and wait for people to complain about it after, so the great thief mains can pick it up to play it.

    Oh please, do try. Try to prove that thief is totally good, and that the best players in the world were wrong for not playing it. Good luck though, you'll need it. And likely fail even with it.

    You continue to say thief bad, thief bad but you haven't given good example that makes it worse than the rest specks, it has received the same treatment as the rest. I explained why it is not in ATs. People build counter rotation comps since only a thief counters a thief these days and that can go either way while disregarding the effort of the other 8 players so people play it safe and maybe boring way, people are using strategy to deny volatility. Thief is just fine in queues since there is no communication and can do its job perfectly fine.

    Simple. Thief is a class that had superior mobility in the form of shortbow 5, but had that counterbalanced by its lack of damage, survivability, utility and healing. Now Shortbow 5 was nerfed, leaving it without the superior mobility, but maintaining its lack of everything else. In simpler terms, thief is just an inferior Ranger/Revenant now. People arent "building counter rotation comps", because for that to make sense, people would have to be playing thief in the first place. No, thief isnt played because thief is bad. No one is building to counter thief because no one plays thief because thief is bad. At this point, Ranger/Revenant counter thief with ease. As does everything else, really.

    Also about the FT thing it shows that you don't really understand how the game works , FT SCRAPPER smorks renegade since it can shut down every everything on it, certain other class is the problem with FT ill let you guess which one.

    If that were the case, it would've been played in the hardstuck league, given that thief was completely absent from it (which I assume you tried to allude to). Its not the case. So it wasnt.

    I could make a build that works but i don't really enjoy thief gameplay that much and spending hours just to spite people while not enjoying the game is not something i would like to do and I don't want to make some cheese that will backfire on me afterwards again . Also I don't really want to theory craft builds for people that don't deserve it.

    You think too highly of yourself if you think you could while all the best players in the world couldnt. Of course you cant make that build. It doesnt exist. Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    OU NO THIEF LOST 1 out of 3 leaps from shortbow get over it already. Thief ain't bad the AT meta will shift at some point and thief will be back and will be fine as is now.

    I don't think you understand. Shortbow 5 isn't just one of thieves skills. It was thief. Shortbow 5, and shortbow 5 alone, was the only reason thief was good. There is no other clas as reliant on one skill as thief and shortbow 5. Thief is bad. No matter how the meta will shift, thief will not return in its current state. It will always be outclassed by ranger and revenant, who give up 1 second on their rotation speed for much higher damage, survivability and utility.

    Also yes I think highly of myself about general knowledge of the game since I mostly rely on out knowing instead of out skilling people to win, also from the hot takes about other classes from the supposedly the best thief (don't know which one is the big deal know though) Sind is that he doesn't really play much the other classes and also iII think he doesn't know what makes them tick, so I think I can do better job at making a build for general queue play, which wouldn't be really that hard since thief is fine there.

    Its clear you do. And its clear you let your complete ignorance of how thief functions not get in the way of that. Its clear you dont know what makes thief tick, so tis clear you can't do a better job than any thief player at making a build for thief. Hence why you dont understand that thief is bad everywhere.

    Strawman allot aren't we for someone that thinks that shortbow is the only way to play . Pretty big words for someone that doesn't know how to theory craft his own main class.

    I don't think you know what a strawman is. And you clearly dont know how thief works if you think shortbow isnt mandatory. I know how to theory craft it, because I used to play it, and I know how it works. What it can and cannot do. You clearly do not.

    YOU KNOW NOTHING JON SNOW, is not really an argument man. DE with D/P or S/P + Rifle clearly doesn't need SB. To save some time you will say something like but DE is bad and will say but DE is probably one of the hardest hitting classes these days by reducing some of its mobility but getting high output and you will say but no one plays it in ATs and The big thief mains don't play DE. And this will go on and on since all your arguments are you are bad and thief is bad and the like. I had my fun with the argument but I don't think I have the power to convince you anything since you return to the same unreasonable thing over and over even though I give you reasonable arguments. That is my own fault for getting entangled and not listening to the OP and the thread name "Do not believe the teef mains".

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Raiden The Beast.3016 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    most mobile class in the game should never be able to 1v1 people, if you think otherwise you are wrong

    I still do not get it, thief has several builds for teamfight, several for +1 ganks and i am pretty sure sidenoder build can be made by losing some mobility.

    It has builds for +1s and decaps. Thats it. It has no teamfighting builds (thats what thief is worst at, they were never even remotely good at teamfighting, its why thief is the worst class in zergs and small-scale group roaming in WvW), and it has no sidenoder build.

    DE, the prep build and for some reason we have reached P/P not being a meme build and becoming legit way to play. Do you even play the class that you so love or you just tunnel one build ?

    This forum, quality input "P/P is not a meme build" ... 🥴

    If I can pull wins with axe axe berserker you have no excuses about P/P thief. The damage in game is not high enough to be killed fast so it can be played fine enough. FT engi is kinda of a meme yet it is good enough to be played in ranked same goes for minion necro builds. The moment the enemy comp can't handle a meme build it is no longer a meme build. And ou all the "It's not in the MAT" kitten doesn't fly for me, the winning team(worms or smth) plays the same kitten over and over 2 renegades and a support(some FOTM) and the contender instead of trying new comps to counter it, they copy them and lose cause the other guys know their own comp perfectly.

    Cool, I can win on core grenade engineer. Does it make any of these builds not meme-tier? No, they're meme-tier. I like meme-tier, but its not good. Youre handicapping yourself. FT Engineer is also a meme, but to put it into a perspective, P/P thief is to FT engineer, what FT engineer is to Renegade. Its that bad.

    /s And maybe thief players are not good as they think they are and can't win the AT. Throwing shade HEYOO./s

    Yeah, thats totally why thief was almost entirely absent from the hardstuck league. Not because it sucks.

    All I see is excuses and whining from thief players in the forum and not their own but the PVP one, all the while there are classes that can't even smell the meta like warrior or ele where they get a build a for a month that gets delete after a patch or mesmer where chrono is a jumbled mess and mirage has one kitten dodge and yet there are people still playing them and winning even with the handicap.

    They all suck. They all should get changes to help them. Why do you think "thief is terrible right now, but thats ok, because warrior and ele are also terrible" is a gotcha?

    Do I have to make a kitten build play it enough times to get noticed, maybe get it on a AT stream or something, then post it and spread it around and wait for people to complain about it after, so the great thief mains can pick it up to play it.

    Oh please, do try. Try to prove that thief is totally good, and that the best players in the world were wrong for not playing it. Good luck though, you'll need it. And likely fail even with it.

    You continue to say thief bad, thief bad but you haven't given good example that makes it worse than the rest specks, it has received the same treatment as the rest. I explained why it is not in ATs. People build counter rotation comps since only a thief counters a thief these days and that can go either way while disregarding the effort of the other 8 players so people play it safe and maybe boring way, people are using strategy to deny volatility. Thief is just fine in queues since there is no communication and can do its job perfectly fine.

    Simple. Thief is a class that had superior mobility in the form of shortbow 5, but had that counterbalanced by its lack of damage, survivability, utility and healing. Now Shortbow 5 was nerfed, leaving it without the superior mobility, but maintaining its lack of everything else. In simpler terms, thief is just an inferior Ranger/Revenant now. People arent "building counter rotation comps", because for that to make sense, people would have to be playing thief in the first place. No, thief isnt played because thief is bad. No one is building to counter thief because no one plays thief because thief is bad. At this point, Ranger/Revenant counter thief with ease. As does everything else, really.

    Also about the FT thing it shows that you don't really understand how the game works , FT SCRAPPER smorks renegade since it can shut down every everything on it, certain other class is the problem with FT ill let you guess which one.

    If that were the case, it would've been played in the hardstuck league, given that thief was completely absent from it (which I assume you tried to allude to). Its not the case. So it wasnt.

    I could make a build that works but i don't really enjoy thief gameplay that much and spending hours just to spite people while not enjoying the game is not something i would like to do and I don't want to make some cheese that will backfire on me afterwards again . Also I don't really want to theory craft builds for people that don't deserve it.

    You think too highly of yourself if you think you could while all the best players in the world couldnt. Of course you cant make that build. It doesnt exist. Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    OU NO THIEF LOST 1 out of 3 leaps from shortbow get over it already. Thief ain't bad the AT meta will shift at some point and thief will be back and will be fine as is now.

    I don't think you understand. Shortbow 5 isn't just one of thieves skills. It was thief. Shortbow 5, and shortbow 5 alone, was the only reason thief was good. There is no other clas as reliant on one skill as thief and shortbow 5. Thief is bad. No matter how the meta will shift, thief will not return in its current state. It will always be outclassed by ranger and revenant, who give up 1 second on their rotation speed for much higher damage, survivability and utility.

    Also yes I think highly of myself about general knowledge of the game since I mostly rely on out knowing instead of out skilling people to win, also from the hot takes about other classes from the supposedly the best thief (don't know which one is the big deal know though) Sind is that he doesn't really play much the other classes and also iII think he doesn't know what makes them tick, so I think I can do better job at making a build for general queue play, which wouldn't be really that hard since thief is fine there.

    Its clear you do. And its clear you let your complete ignorance of how thief functions not get in the way of that. Its clear you dont know what makes thief tick, so tis clear you can't do a better job than any thief player at making a build for thief. Hence why you dont understand that thief is bad everywhere.

    Strawman allot aren't we for someone that thinks that shortbow is the only way to play . Pretty big words for someone that doesn't know how to theory craft his own main class.

    I don't think you know what a strawman is. And you clearly dont know how thief works if you think shortbow isnt mandatory. I know how to theory craft it, because I used to play it, and I know how it works. What it can and cannot do. You clearly do not.

    YOU KNOW NOTHING JON SNOW, is not really an argument man. DE with D/P or S/P + Rifle clearly doesn't need SB. To save some time you will say something like but DE is bad and will say but DE is probably one of the hardest hitting classes these days by reducing some of its mobility but getting high output and you will say but no one plays it in ATs and The big thief mains don't play DE. And this will go on and on since all your arguments are you are bad and thief is bad and the like. I had my fun with the argument but I don't think I have the power to convince you anything since you return to the same unreasonable thing over and over even though I give you reasonable arguments. That is my own fault for getting entangled and not listening to the OP and the thread name "Do not believe the teef mains".

    And DE sucks. Its issue is that either you play it without shortbow, in which case it sucks because it doesnt have shortbow, or you play it with, and you just get screwed by LoS, projectile block and people teleporting on you. It also doesn't hit that particularly hard, even by todays standards. Not without the enemy being AFK to be hit by DJ, at least. And no, your arguments are the ones that are bad, since your arguments are quite literally "I know better than all the good players despite having already shown that I don't understand thief at all". You have yet to show any reason why thief is totally good. There are no "reasonable arguments" you bring, just a misconception as to how teams are built, and a misconception as to what thief can and cannot do.

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Raiden The Beast.3016 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    most mobile class in the game should never be able to 1v1 people, if you think otherwise you are wrong

    I still do not get it, thief has several builds for teamfight, several for +1 ganks and i am pretty sure sidenoder build can be made by losing some mobility.

    It has builds for +1s and decaps. Thats it. It has no teamfighting builds (thats what thief is worst at, they were never even remotely good at teamfighting, its why thief is the worst class in zergs and small-scale group roaming in WvW), and it has no sidenoder build.

    DE, the prep build and for some reason we have reached P/P not being a meme build and becoming legit way to play. Do you even play the class that you so love or you just tunnel one build ?

    This forum, quality input "P/P is not a meme build" ... 🥴

    If I can pull wins with axe axe berserker you have no excuses about P/P thief. The damage in game is not high enough to be killed fast so it can be played fine enough. FT engi is kinda of a meme yet it is good enough to be played in ranked same goes for minion necro builds. The moment the enemy comp can't handle a meme build it is no longer a meme build. And ou all the "It's not in the MAT" kitten doesn't fly for me, the winning team(worms or smth) plays the same kitten over and over 2 renegades and a support(some FOTM) and the contender instead of trying new comps to counter it, they copy them and lose cause the other guys know their own comp perfectly.

    Cool, I can win on core grenade engineer. Does it make any of these builds not meme-tier? No, they're meme-tier. I like meme-tier, but its not good. Youre handicapping yourself. FT Engineer is also a meme, but to put it into a perspective, P/P thief is to FT engineer, what FT engineer is to Renegade. Its that bad.

    /s And maybe thief players are not good as they think they are and can't win the AT. Throwing shade HEYOO./s

    Yeah, thats totally why thief was almost entirely absent from the hardstuck league. Not because it sucks.

    All I see is excuses and whining from thief players in the forum and not their own but the PVP one, all the while there are classes that can't even smell the meta like warrior or ele where they get a build a for a month that gets delete after a patch or mesmer where chrono is a jumbled mess and mirage has one kitten dodge and yet there are people still playing them and winning even with the handicap.

    They all suck. They all should get changes to help them. Why do you think "thief is terrible right now, but thats ok, because warrior and ele are also terrible" is a gotcha?

    Do I have to make a kitten build play it enough times to get noticed, maybe get it on a AT stream or something, then post it and spread it around and wait for people to complain about it after, so the great thief mains can pick it up to play it.

    Oh please, do try. Try to prove that thief is totally good, and that the best players in the world were wrong for not playing it. Good luck though, you'll need it. And likely fail even with it.

    You continue to say thief bad, thief bad but you haven't given good example that makes it worse than the rest specks, it has received the same treatment as the rest. I explained why it is not in ATs. People build counter rotation comps since only a thief counters a thief these days and that can go either way while disregarding the effort of the other 8 players so people play it safe and maybe boring way, people are using strategy to deny volatility. Thief is just fine in queues since there is no communication and can do its job perfectly fine.

    Simple. Thief is a class that had superior mobility in the form of shortbow 5, but had that counterbalanced by its lack of damage, survivability, utility and healing. Now Shortbow 5 was nerfed, leaving it without the superior mobility, but maintaining its lack of everything else. In simpler terms, thief is just an inferior Ranger/Revenant now. People arent "building counter rotation comps", because for that to make sense, people would have to be playing thief in the first place. No, thief isnt played because thief is bad. No one is building to counter thief because no one plays thief because thief is bad. At this point, Ranger/Revenant counter thief with ease. As does everything else, really.

    Also about the FT thing it shows that you don't really understand how the game works , FT SCRAPPER smorks renegade since it can shut down every everything on it, certain other class is the problem with FT ill let you guess which one.

    If that were the case, it would've been played in the hardstuck league, given that thief was completely absent from it (which I assume you tried to allude to). Its not the case. So it wasnt.

    I could make a build that works but i don't really enjoy thief gameplay that much and spending hours just to spite people while not enjoying the game is not something i would like to do and I don't want to make some cheese that will backfire on me afterwards again . Also I don't really want to theory craft builds for people that don't deserve it.

    You think too highly of yourself if you think you could while all the best players in the world couldnt. Of course you cant make that build. It doesnt exist. Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    OU NO THIEF LOST 1 out of 3 leaps from shortbow get over it already. Thief ain't bad the AT meta will shift at some point and thief will be back and will be fine as is now.

    I don't think you understand. Shortbow 5 isn't just one of thieves skills. It was thief. Shortbow 5, and shortbow 5 alone, was the only reason thief was good. There is no other clas as reliant on one skill as thief and shortbow 5. Thief is bad. No matter how the meta will shift, thief will not return in its current state. It will always be outclassed by ranger and revenant, who give up 1 second on their rotation speed for much higher damage, survivability and utility.

    Also yes I think highly of myself about general knowledge of the game since I mostly rely on out knowing instead of out skilling people to win, also from the hot takes about other classes from the supposedly the best thief (don't know which one is the big deal know though) Sind is that he doesn't really play much the other classes and also iII think he doesn't know what makes them tick, so I think I can do better job at making a build for general queue play, which wouldn't be really that hard since thief is fine there.

    Its clear you do. And its clear you let your complete ignorance of how thief functions not get in the way of that. Its clear you dont know what makes thief tick, so tis clear you can't do a better job than any thief player at making a build for thief. Hence why you dont understand that thief is bad everywhere.

    Strawman allot aren't we for someone that thinks that shortbow is the only way to play . Pretty big words for someone that doesn't know how to theory craft his own main class.

    I don't think you know what a strawman is. And you clearly dont know how thief works if you think shortbow isnt mandatory. I know how to theory craft it, because I used to play it, and I know how it works. What it can and cannot do. You clearly do not.

    YOU KNOW NOTHING JON SNOW, is not really an argument man. DE with D/P or S/P + Rifle clearly doesn't need SB. To save some time you will say something like but DE is bad and will say but DE is probably one of the hardest hitting classes these days by reducing some of its mobility but getting high output and you will say but no one plays it in ATs and The big thief mains don't play DE. And this will go on and on since all your arguments are you are bad and thief is bad and the like. I had my fun with the argument but I don't think I have the power to convince you anything since you return to the same unreasonable thing over and over even though I give you reasonable arguments. That is my own fault for getting entangled and not listening to the OP and the thread name "Do not believe the teef mains".

    And DE sucks. Its issue is that either you play it without shortbow, in which case it sucks because it doesnt have shortbow, or you play it with, and you just get screwed by LoS, projectile block and people teleporting on you. It also doesn't hit that particularly hard, even by todays standards. Not without the enemy being AFK to be hit by DJ, at least. And no, your arguments are the ones that are bad, since your arguments are quite literally "I know better than all the good players despite having already shown that I don't understand thief at all". You have yet to show any reason why thief is totally good. There are no "reasonable arguments" you bring, just a misconception as to how teams are built, and a misconception as to what thief can and cannot do.

    If they teleport on you, either dodge/stealth or use Death's Retreat , or Shadow Step
    Even Skirmisher's Shotdoes 3300-3600 crit https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/125814/deadeye-thief and you dont need to kneel
    Projectile block are useless . That why none use it in the Tournaments vs the Rev with Power Amulet Bows
    edit: (or on purpose , they have a magestic plan , with their main getting unscathed and they steer the company to nerf specific classes till the next expansion .Which will come in fruition , because few can go high on the Tournaments:P)


    about LoS , he is using Shadow Step

    1) at the "Shout your favorite Team" section show a 8 sec lighthearted speedrun Sion killing kill Dragon>lvl up>Dab>Tower>Base>Win 2)Also tips when the enemy Hit the Tower,Inhibitor-Dragon -simple 9 yearwords (what is Soul?)3) Show a card "C9 aim is CC in mass battle""vs "TL kill the sqissy"

  • razaelll.8324razaelll.8324 Member ✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    I dont know about ATs since i still didnt played one yet, but in ranked (g2-g3 rating) i see thief in almost every game. I mainly play Core condi necro and i get destroyed by DE thiefs without having much chance to do something to them.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    I dont know about ATs since i still didnt played one yet, but in ranked (g2-g3 rating) i see thief in almost every game. I mainly play Core condi necro and i get destroyed by DE thiefs without having much chance to do something to them.

    Yeah... that's pretty much as bad a matchup as it gets for core necro 1v1. DE and Ranger are going to be your hardest counters. Best to play with your team if the enemy has one. They're not as useful as you in large scale fights.

  • razaelll.8324razaelll.8324 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    I dont know about ATs since i still didnt played one yet, but in ranked (g2-g3 rating) i see thief in almost every game. I mainly play Core condi necro and i get destroyed by DE thiefs without having much chance to do something to them.

    Yeah... that's pretty much as bad a matchup as it gets for core necro 1v1. DE and Ranger are going to be your hardest counters. Best to play with your team if the enemy has one. They're not as useful as you in large scale fights.

    Yep i understand that, but they look good in +1 and small scale fights since it looks like they have very high burst and they can aways choose their fights, because of their mobility and invisibility. Anyway my point is that i think thief is not that unplayed as @UNOwen.7132 claims.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    I dont know about ATs since i still didnt played one yet, but in ranked (g2-g3 rating) i see thief in almost every game. I mainly play Core condi necro and i get destroyed by DE thiefs without having much chance to do something to them.

    Thieves are always overrepresented in the lower ranks, its the same reason you often got 2 thief teams despite that being an autoloss. But its not played much above that, because its bad.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    I dont know about ATs since i still didnt played one yet, but in ranked (g2-g3 rating) i see thief in almost every game. I mainly play Core condi necro and i get destroyed by DE thiefs without having much chance to do something to them.

    Yeah... that's pretty much as bad a matchup as it gets for core necro 1v1. DE and Ranger are going to be your hardest counters. Best to play with your team if the enemy has one. They're not as useful as you in large scale fights.

    Yep i understand that, but they look good in +1 and small scale fights since it looks like they have very high burst and they can aways choose their fights, because of their mobility and invisibility. Anyway my point is that i think thief is not that unplayed as @UNOwen.7132 claims.

    They're ok for +1s and terrible for small scale fights. Their burst is pathetically low, but they were carried by the fact that they could rotate faster and get into position to burst faster. Now they cannot, anymore. At this point, there is no reason to play thief over ranger or revenant, who burst twice as hard, survive twice as well but only arrive in position 1 second slower. Really, the only useful aspect thief has left is stealthing their team, but thats not really relevant in a low-damage meta like we've had for months.

  • UmbraNoctis.1907UmbraNoctis.1907 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    I dont know about ATs since i still didnt played one yet, but in ranked (g2-g3 rating) i see thief in almost every game. I mainly play Core condi necro and i get destroyed by DE thiefs without having much chance to do something to them.

    Thieves are always overrepresented in the lower ranks, its the same reason you often got 2 thief teams despite that being an autoloss. But its not played much above that, because its bad.

    Thief is played by some top teams in tournaments.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    I dont know about ATs since i still didnt played one yet, but in ranked (g2-g3 rating) i see thief in almost every game. I mainly play Core condi necro and i get destroyed by DE thiefs without having much chance to do something to them.

    Yeah... that's pretty much as bad a matchup as it gets for core necro 1v1. DE and Ranger are going to be your hardest counters. Best to play with your team if the enemy has one. They're not as useful as you in large scale fights.

    Yep i understand that, but they look good in +1 and small scale fights since it looks like they have very high burst and they can aways choose their fights, because of their mobility and invisibility. Anyway my point is that i think thief is not that unplayed as @UNOwen.7132 claims.

    They're ok for +1s and terrible for small scale fights. Their burst is pathetically low, but they were carried by the fact that they could rotate faster and get into position to burst faster. Now they cannot, anymore. At this point, there is no reason to play thief over ranger or revenant, who burst twice as hard, survive twice as well but only arrive in position 1 second slower. Really, the only useful aspect thief has left is stealthing their team, but thats not really relevant in a low-damage meta like we've had for months.

    Ranger did never and will never compete with thief for a roamer role at high lvl play (unless they significantly buff sic'em slb - which will not happen)

  • Yeah don't believe thief mains.... This guys plays a kitten menders scourge... Dear god.

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @LolLookAtMyAP.8394 said:
    Uh yeah I can do 13k+ backstabs from stealth (at the cost of mobility and sustain) it's only a joke build that will never be viable though

    How do people keep coming up with more and more unrealistic numbers? Although, do you mean malicious backstab?

    I once crit for 16k+ backstab and i don't even have a thief

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    I dont know about ATs since i still didnt played one yet, but in ranked (g2-g3 rating) i see thief in almost every game. I mainly play Core condi necro and i get destroyed by DE thiefs without having much chance to do something to them.

    Thieves are always overrepresented in the lower ranks, its the same reason you often got 2 thief teams despite that being an autoloss. But its not played much above that, because its bad.

    Thief is played by some top teams in tournaments.

    Such as? In the Hardstuck league we only really saw the prestige, which used thief as backup for Mesmer. Which, given its mesmer, is not a great sign. They also lost.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    I dont know about ATs since i still didnt played one yet, but in ranked (g2-g3 rating) i see thief in almost every game. I mainly play Core condi necro and i get destroyed by DE thiefs without having much chance to do something to them.

    Yeah... that's pretty much as bad a matchup as it gets for core necro 1v1. DE and Ranger are going to be your hardest counters. Best to play with your team if the enemy has one. They're not as useful as you in large scale fights.

    Yep i understand that, but they look good in +1 and small scale fights since it looks like they have very high burst and they can aways choose their fights, because of their mobility and invisibility. Anyway my point is that i think thief is not that unplayed as @UNOwen.7132 claims.

    They're ok for +1s and terrible for small scale fights. Their burst is pathetically low, but they were carried by the fact that they could rotate faster and get into position to burst faster. Now they cannot, anymore. At this point, there is no reason to play thief over ranger or revenant, who burst twice as hard, survive twice as well but only arrive in position 1 second slower. Really, the only useful aspect thief has left is stealthing their team, but thats not really relevant in a low-damage meta like we've had for months.

    Ranger did never and will never compete with thief for a roamer role at high lvl play (unless they significantly buff sic'em slb - which will not happen)

    Of course it will? Similar mobility, much higher damage and survivability. Probably outclassed by Revenant right now, but already superior.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Raiden The Beast.3016 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    most mobile class in the game should never be able to 1v1 people, if you think otherwise you are wrong

    I still do not get it, thief has several builds for teamfight, several for +1 ganks and i am pretty sure sidenoder build can be made by losing some mobility.

    It has builds for +1s and decaps. Thats it. It has no teamfighting builds (thats what thief is worst at, they were never even remotely good at teamfighting, its why thief is the worst class in zergs and small-scale group roaming in WvW), and it has no sidenoder build.

    DE, the prep build and for some reason we have reached P/P not being a meme build and becoming legit way to play. Do you even play the class that you so love or you just tunnel one build ?

    This forum, quality input "P/P is not a meme build" ... 🥴

    If I can pull wins with axe axe berserker you have no excuses about P/P thief. The damage in game is not high enough to be killed fast so it can be played fine enough. FT engi is kinda of a meme yet it is good enough to be played in ranked same goes for minion necro builds. The moment the enemy comp can't handle a meme build it is no longer a meme build. And ou all the "It's not in the MAT" kitten doesn't fly for me, the winning team(worms or smth) plays the same kitten over and over 2 renegades and a support(some FOTM) and the contender instead of trying new comps to counter it, they copy them and lose cause the other guys know their own comp perfectly.

    Cool, I can win on core grenade engineer. Does it make any of these builds not meme-tier? No, they're meme-tier. I like meme-tier, but its not good. Youre handicapping yourself. FT Engineer is also a meme, but to put it into a perspective, P/P thief is to FT engineer, what FT engineer is to Renegade. Its that bad.

    /s And maybe thief players are not good as they think they are and can't win the AT. Throwing shade HEYOO./s

    Yeah, thats totally why thief was almost entirely absent from the hardstuck league. Not because it sucks.

    All I see is excuses and whining from thief players in the forum and not their own but the PVP one, all the while there are classes that can't even smell the meta like warrior or ele where they get a build a for a month that gets delete after a patch or mesmer where chrono is a jumbled mess and mirage has one kitten dodge and yet there are people still playing them and winning even with the handicap.

    They all suck. They all should get changes to help them. Why do you think "thief is terrible right now, but thats ok, because warrior and ele are also terrible" is a gotcha?

    Do I have to make a kitten build play it enough times to get noticed, maybe get it on a AT stream or something, then post it and spread it around and wait for people to complain about it after, so the great thief mains can pick it up to play it.

    Oh please, do try. Try to prove that thief is totally good, and that the best players in the world were wrong for not playing it. Good luck though, you'll need it. And likely fail even with it.

    You continue to say thief bad, thief bad but you haven't given good example that makes it worse than the rest specks, it has received the same treatment as the rest. I explained why it is not in ATs. People build counter rotation comps since only a thief counters a thief these days and that can go either way while disregarding the effort of the other 8 players so people play it safe and maybe boring way, people are using strategy to deny volatility. Thief is just fine in queues since there is no communication and can do its job perfectly fine.

    Simple. Thief is a class that had superior mobility in the form of shortbow 5, but had that counterbalanced by its lack of damage, survivability, utility and healing. Now Shortbow 5 was nerfed, leaving it without the superior mobility, but maintaining its lack of everything else. In simpler terms, thief is just an inferior Ranger/Revenant now. People arent "building counter rotation comps", because for that to make sense, people would have to be playing thief in the first place. No, thief isnt played because thief is bad. No one is building to counter thief because no one plays thief because thief is bad. At this point, Ranger/Revenant counter thief with ease. As does everything else, really.

    Also about the FT thing it shows that you don't really understand how the game works , FT SCRAPPER smorks renegade since it can shut down every everything on it, certain other class is the problem with FT ill let you guess which one.

    If that were the case, it would've been played in the hardstuck league, given that thief was completely absent from it (which I assume you tried to allude to). Its not the case. So it wasnt.

    I could make a build that works but i don't really enjoy thief gameplay that much and spending hours just to spite people while not enjoying the game is not something i would like to do and I don't want to make some cheese that will backfire on me afterwards again . Also I don't really want to theory craft builds for people that don't deserve it.

    You think too highly of yourself if you think you could while all the best players in the world couldnt. Of course you cant make that build. It doesnt exist. Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    OU NO THIEF LOST 1 out of 3 leaps from shortbow get over it already. Thief ain't bad the AT meta will shift at some point and thief will be back and will be fine as is now.

    I don't think you understand. Shortbow 5 isn't just one of thieves skills. It was thief. Shortbow 5, and shortbow 5 alone, was the only reason thief was good. There is no other clas as reliant on one skill as thief and shortbow 5. Thief is bad. No matter how the meta will shift, thief will not return in its current state. It will always be outclassed by ranger and revenant, who give up 1 second on their rotation speed for much higher damage, survivability and utility.

    Also yes I think highly of myself about general knowledge of the game since I mostly rely on out knowing instead of out skilling people to win, also from the hot takes about other classes from the supposedly the best thief (don't know which one is the big deal know though) Sind is that he doesn't really play much the other classes and also iII think he doesn't know what makes them tick, so I think I can do better job at making a build for general queue play, which wouldn't be really that hard since thief is fine there.

    Its clear you do. And its clear you let your complete ignorance of how thief functions not get in the way of that. Its clear you dont know what makes thief tick, so tis clear you can't do a better job than any thief player at making a build for thief. Hence why you dont understand that thief is bad everywhere.

    Strawman allot aren't we for someone that thinks that shortbow is the only way to play . Pretty big words for someone that doesn't know how to theory craft his own main class.

    I don't think you know what a strawman is. And you clearly dont know how thief works if you think shortbow isnt mandatory. I know how to theory craft it, because I used to play it, and I know how it works. What it can and cannot do. You clearly do not.

    YOU KNOW NOTHING JON SNOW, is not really an argument man. DE with D/P or S/P + Rifle clearly doesn't need SB. To save some time you will say something like but DE is bad and will say but DE is probably one of the hardest hitting classes these days by reducing some of its mobility but getting high output and you will say but no one plays it in ATs and The big thief mains don't play DE. And this will go on and on since all your arguments are you are bad and thief is bad and the like. I had my fun with the argument but I don't think I have the power to convince you anything since you return to the same unreasonable thing over and over even though I give you reasonable arguments. That is my own fault for getting entangled and not listening to the OP and the thread name "Do not believe the teef mains".

    And DE sucks. Its issue is that either you play it without shortbow, in which case it sucks because it doesnt have shortbow, or you play it with, and you just get screwed by LoS, projectile block and people teleporting on you. It also doesn't hit that particularly hard, even by todays standards. Not without the enemy being AFK to be hit by DJ, at least. And no, your arguments are the ones that are bad, since your arguments are quite literally "I know better than all the good players despite having already shown that I don't understand thief at all". You have yet to show any reason why thief is totally good. There are no "reasonable arguments" you bring, just a misconception as to how teams are built, and a misconception as to what thief can and cannot do.

    Call me Nostradamus cause I saw your future lol.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TheBigPlay.7504 said:
    Yeah don't believe thief mains.... This guys plays a kitten menders scourge... Dear god.

    Me? I dont even have a necro anymore lmao. Still rocking the same default 5 character slots because I cannot be bothered to spend $20 for another. That's like... a whole kitten steam game.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @TheBigPlay.7504 said:
    Yeah don't believe thief mains.... This guys plays a kitten menders scourge... Dear god.

    Me? I dont even have a necro anymore lmao. Still rocking the same default 5 character slots because I cannot be bothered to spend $20 for another. That's like... a whole kitten steam game.

    there was a discount, just buy gems with gold. I wasted like 2k gold like this not too long ago lul.
    P.S
    Pepegasus was worth it.

  • FrownyClown.8402FrownyClown.8402 Member ✭✭✭

    Thief is useful with dps heavy comps for securing kills and interrupting heals. If they buffed sword damage they would make good duelists too.

  • UmbraNoctis.1907UmbraNoctis.1907 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    I dont know about ATs since i still didnt played one yet, but in ranked (g2-g3 rating) i see thief in almost every game. I mainly play Core condi necro and i get destroyed by DE thiefs without having much chance to do something to them.

    Thieves are always overrepresented in the lower ranks, its the same reason you often got 2 thief teams despite that being an autoloss. But its not played much above that, because its bad.

    Thief is played by some top teams in tournaments.

    Such as? In the Hardstuck league we only really saw the prestige, which used thief as backup for Mesmer. Which, given its mesmer, is not a great sign. They also lost.

    They won EU bracket, then suffered a bit during cross region matches (with thief/mes being more ping sensitive than other meta comps maybe being a factor). Azza's team was 3rd (with DE). And that was before the recent rev nerfs.
    Latest mAT (EU, idk about NA) 3 out of 4 semi final teams were running thief. And Prestige wasn't even one of them.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    I dont know about ATs since i still didnt played one yet, but in ranked (g2-g3 rating) i see thief in almost every game. I mainly play Core condi necro and i get destroyed by DE thiefs without having much chance to do something to them.

    Yeah... that's pretty much as bad a matchup as it gets for core necro 1v1. DE and Ranger are going to be your hardest counters. Best to play with your team if the enemy has one. They're not as useful as you in large scale fights.

    Yep i understand that, but they look good in +1 and small scale fights since it looks like they have very high burst and they can aways choose their fights, because of their mobility and invisibility. Anyway my point is that i think thief is not that unplayed as @UNOwen.7132 claims.

    They're ok for +1s and terrible for small scale fights. Their burst is pathetically low, but they were carried by the fact that they could rotate faster and get into position to burst faster. Now they cannot, anymore. At this point, there is no reason to play thief over ranger or revenant, who burst twice as hard, survive twice as well but only arrive in position 1 second slower. Really, the only useful aspect thief has left is stealthing their team, but thats not really relevant in a low-damage meta like we've had for months.

    Ranger did never and will never compete with thief for a roamer role at high lvl play (unless they significantly buff sic'em slb - which will not happen)

    Of course it will? Similar mobility, much higher damage and survivability. Probably outclassed by Revenant right now, but already superior.

    Then why are there so many more thieves played in tournaments? There are zero top teams running sic'em slb right now. Even after rev nerfs. For good reasons. It has worse mobility (no ports and ports > leaps), the burst is telegraphed and easy to counter and it is susceptible to getting locked down and killed.
    Other ranger builds that might see some occasional play (mostly decap druid atm) fill an entirely different role and are therefore no competition for thief.

  • @Kuma.1503 said:

    @TheBigPlay.7504 said:
    Yeah don't believe thief mains.... This guys plays a kitten menders scourge... Dear god.

    Me? I dont even have a necro anymore lmao. Still rocking the same default 5 character slots because I cannot be bothered to spend $20 for another. That's like... a whole kitten steam game.

    I saw you the other day in pvp on a menders scourges. Not only are you defending the most skillest meta in gw2 history you want to keep nerfting thief. When thief is absolutely kitten in the current meta. No wonder PvP in this game is bad. Because people like you that don't understand the game.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    I dont know about ATs since i still didnt played one yet, but in ranked (g2-g3 rating) i see thief in almost every game. I mainly play Core condi necro and i get destroyed by DE thiefs without having much chance to do something to them.

    Thieves are always overrepresented in the lower ranks, its the same reason you often got 2 thief teams despite that being an autoloss. But its not played much above that, because its bad.

    Thief is played by some top teams in tournaments.

    Such as? In the Hardstuck league we only really saw the prestige, which used thief as backup for Mesmer. Which, given its mesmer, is not a great sign. They also lost.

    They won EU bracket, then suffered a bit during cross region matches (with thief/mes being more ping sensitive than other meta comps maybe being a factor). Azza's team was 3rd (with DE). And that was before the recent rev nerfs.
    Latest mAT (EU, idk about NA) 3 out of 4 semi final teams were running thief. And Prestige wasn't even one of them.

    Yeah, that was the one team, where Prestige used thief as backup for Mesmer. The Mesmer was more important in that comp. Given Mesmers sorry state, that reflects poorly on thief.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    I dont know about ATs since i still didnt played one yet, but in ranked (g2-g3 rating) i see thief in almost every game. I mainly play Core condi necro and i get destroyed by DE thiefs without having much chance to do something to them.

    Yeah... that's pretty much as bad a matchup as it gets for core necro 1v1. DE and Ranger are going to be your hardest counters. Best to play with your team if the enemy has one. They're not as useful as you in large scale fights.

    Yep i understand that, but they look good in +1 and small scale fights since it looks like they have very high burst and they can aways choose their fights, because of their mobility and invisibility. Anyway my point is that i think thief is not that unplayed as @UNOwen.7132 claims.

    They're ok for +1s and terrible for small scale fights. Their burst is pathetically low, but they were carried by the fact that they could rotate faster and get into position to burst faster. Now they cannot, anymore. At this point, there is no reason to play thief over ranger or revenant, who burst twice as hard, survive twice as well but only arrive in position 1 second slower. Really, the only useful aspect thief has left is stealthing their team, but thats not really relevant in a low-damage meta like we've had for months.

    Ranger did never and will never compete with thief for a roamer role at high lvl play (unless they significantly buff sic'em slb - which will not happen)

    Of course it will? Similar mobility, much higher damage and survivability. Probably outclassed by Revenant right now, but already superior.

    Then why are there so many more thieves played in tournaments? There are zero top teams running sic'em slb right now. Even after rev nerfs. For good reasons. It has worse mobility (no ports and ports > leaps), the burst is telegraphed and easy to counter and it is susceptible to getting locked down and killed.
    Other ranger builds that might see some occasional play (mostly decap druid atm) fill an entirely different role and are therefore no competition for thief.

    There arent? We saw about as many thieves in the hardstuck league as we saw rangers from what I recall. Same reason, outclassed by revenants. And it doesnt have to be sic em, Ranger does more damage either way. It has very, very slightly worse mobility now. 1 second on a rotation at worst, and on flat maps probably is even slightly faster now. The burst is more telegraphed, but also hits much harder, its actually not easy to counter at all, and if youre +1ing, you shouldnt be getting locked down and killed (and if you are, the thief doesnt escape either).

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Raiden The Beast.3016 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    most mobile class in the game should never be able to 1v1 people, if you think otherwise you are wrong

    I still do not get it, thief has several builds for teamfight, several for +1 ganks and i am pretty sure sidenoder build can be made by losing some mobility.

    It has builds for +1s and decaps. Thats it. It has no teamfighting builds (thats what thief is worst at, they were never even remotely good at teamfighting, its why thief is the worst class in zergs and small-scale group roaming in WvW), and it has no sidenoder build.

    DE, the prep build and for some reason we have reached P/P not being a meme build and becoming legit way to play. Do you even play the class that you so love or you just tunnel one build ?

    This forum, quality input "P/P is not a meme build" ... 🥴

    If I can pull wins with axe axe berserker you have no excuses about P/P thief. The damage in game is not high enough to be killed fast so it can be played fine enough. FT engi is kinda of a meme yet it is good enough to be played in ranked same goes for minion necro builds. The moment the enemy comp can't handle a meme build it is no longer a meme build. And ou all the "It's not in the MAT" kitten doesn't fly for me, the winning team(worms or smth) plays the same kitten over and over 2 renegades and a support(some FOTM) and the contender instead of trying new comps to counter it, they copy them and lose cause the other guys know their own comp perfectly.

    Cool, I can win on core grenade engineer. Does it make any of these builds not meme-tier? No, they're meme-tier. I like meme-tier, but its not good. Youre handicapping yourself. FT Engineer is also a meme, but to put it into a perspective, P/P thief is to FT engineer, what FT engineer is to Renegade. Its that bad.

    /s And maybe thief players are not good as they think they are and can't win the AT. Throwing shade HEYOO./s

    Yeah, thats totally why thief was almost entirely absent from the hardstuck league. Not because it sucks.

    All I see is excuses and whining from thief players in the forum and not their own but the PVP one, all the while there are classes that can't even smell the meta like warrior or ele where they get a build a for a month that gets delete after a patch or mesmer where chrono is a jumbled mess and mirage has one kitten dodge and yet there are people still playing them and winning even with the handicap.

    They all suck. They all should get changes to help them. Why do you think "thief is terrible right now, but thats ok, because warrior and ele are also terrible" is a gotcha?

    Do I have to make a kitten build play it enough times to get noticed, maybe get it on a AT stream or something, then post it and spread it around and wait for people to complain about it after, so the great thief mains can pick it up to play it.

    Oh please, do try. Try to prove that thief is totally good, and that the best players in the world were wrong for not playing it. Good luck though, you'll need it. And likely fail even with it.

    You continue to say thief bad, thief bad but you haven't given good example that makes it worse than the rest specks, it has received the same treatment as the rest. I explained why it is not in ATs. People build counter rotation comps since only a thief counters a thief these days and that can go either way while disregarding the effort of the other 8 players so people play it safe and maybe boring way, people are using strategy to deny volatility. Thief is just fine in queues since there is no communication and can do its job perfectly fine.

    Simple. Thief is a class that had superior mobility in the form of shortbow 5, but had that counterbalanced by its lack of damage, survivability, utility and healing. Now Shortbow 5 was nerfed, leaving it without the superior mobility, but maintaining its lack of everything else. In simpler terms, thief is just an inferior Ranger/Revenant now. People arent "building counter rotation comps", because for that to make sense, people would have to be playing thief in the first place. No, thief isnt played because thief is bad. No one is building to counter thief because no one plays thief because thief is bad. At this point, Ranger/Revenant counter thief with ease. As does everything else, really.

    Also about the FT thing it shows that you don't really understand how the game works , FT SCRAPPER smorks renegade since it can shut down every everything on it, certain other class is the problem with FT ill let you guess which one.

    If that were the case, it would've been played in the hardstuck league, given that thief was completely absent from it (which I assume you tried to allude to). Its not the case. So it wasnt.

    I could make a build that works but i don't really enjoy thief gameplay that much and spending hours just to spite people while not enjoying the game is not something i would like to do and I don't want to make some cheese that will backfire on me afterwards again . Also I don't really want to theory craft builds for people that don't deserve it.

    You think too highly of yourself if you think you could while all the best players in the world couldnt. Of course you cant make that build. It doesnt exist. Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    OU NO THIEF LOST 1 out of 3 leaps from shortbow get over it already. Thief ain't bad the AT meta will shift at some point and thief will be back and will be fine as is now.

    I don't think you understand. Shortbow 5 isn't just one of thieves skills. It was thief. Shortbow 5, and shortbow 5 alone, was the only reason thief was good. There is no other clas as reliant on one skill as thief and shortbow 5. Thief is bad. No matter how the meta will shift, thief will not return in its current state. It will always be outclassed by ranger and revenant, who give up 1 second on their rotation speed for much higher damage, survivability and utility.

    Also yes I think highly of myself about general knowledge of the game since I mostly rely on out knowing instead of out skilling people to win, also from the hot takes about other classes from the supposedly the best thief (don't know which one is the big deal know though) Sind is that he doesn't really play much the other classes and also iII think he doesn't know what makes them tick, so I think I can do better job at making a build for general queue play, which wouldn't be really that hard since thief is fine there.

    Its clear you do. And its clear you let your complete ignorance of how thief functions not get in the way of that. Its clear you dont know what makes thief tick, so tis clear you can't do a better job than any thief player at making a build for thief. Hence why you dont understand that thief is bad everywhere.

    Strawman allot aren't we for someone that thinks that shortbow is the only way to play . Pretty big words for someone that doesn't know how to theory craft his own main class.

    I don't think you know what a strawman is. And you clearly dont know how thief works if you think shortbow isnt mandatory. I know how to theory craft it, because I used to play it, and I know how it works. What it can and cannot do. You clearly do not.

    YOU KNOW NOTHING JON SNOW, is not really an argument man. DE with D/P or S/P + Rifle clearly doesn't need SB. To save some time you will say something like but DE is bad and will say but DE is probably one of the hardest hitting classes these days by reducing some of its mobility but getting high output and you will say but no one plays it in ATs and The big thief mains don't play DE. And this will go on and on since all your arguments are you are bad and thief is bad and the like. I had my fun with the argument but I don't think I have the power to convince you anything since you return to the same unreasonable thing over and over even though I give you reasonable arguments. That is my own fault for getting entangled and not listening to the OP and the thread name "Do not believe the teef mains".

    And DE sucks. Its issue is that either you play it without shortbow, in which case it sucks because it doesnt have shortbow, or you play it with, and you just get screwed by LoS, projectile block and people teleporting on you. It also doesn't hit that particularly hard, even by todays standards. Not without the enemy being AFK to be hit by DJ, at least. And no, your arguments are the ones that are bad, since your arguments are quite literally "I know better than all the good players despite having already shown that I don't understand thief at all". You have yet to show any reason why thief is totally good. There are no "reasonable arguments" you bring, just a misconception as to how teams are built, and a misconception as to what thief can and cannot do.

    Call me Nostradamus cause I saw your future lol.

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Raiden The Beast.3016 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    most mobile class in the game should never be able to 1v1 people, if you think otherwise you are wrong

    I still do not get it, thief has several builds for teamfight, several for +1 ganks and i am pretty sure sidenoder build can be made by losing some mobility.

    It has builds for +1s and decaps. Thats it. It has no teamfighting builds (thats what thief is worst at, they were never even remotely good at teamfighting, its why thief is the worst class in zergs and small-scale group roaming in WvW), and it has no sidenoder build.

    DE, the prep build and for some reason we have reached P/P not being a meme build and becoming legit way to play. Do you even play the class that you so love or you just tunnel one build ?

    This forum, quality input "P/P is not a meme build" ... 🥴

    If I can pull wins with axe axe berserker you have no excuses about P/P thief. The damage in game is not high enough to be killed fast so it can be played fine enough. FT engi is kinda of a meme yet it is good enough to be played in ranked same goes for minion necro builds. The moment the enemy comp can't handle a meme build it is no longer a meme build. And ou all the "It's not in the MAT" kitten doesn't fly for me, the winning team(worms or smth) plays the same kitten over and over 2 renegades and a support(some FOTM) and the contender instead of trying new comps to counter it, they copy them and lose cause the other guys know their own comp perfectly.

    Cool, I can win on core grenade engineer. Does it make any of these builds not meme-tier? No, they're meme-tier. I like meme-tier, but its not good. Youre handicapping yourself. FT Engineer is also a meme, but to put it into a perspective, P/P thief is to FT engineer, what FT engineer is to Renegade. Its that bad.

    /s And maybe thief players are not good as they think they are and can't win the AT. Throwing shade HEYOO./s

    Yeah, thats totally why thief was almost entirely absent from the hardstuck league. Not because it sucks.

    All I see is excuses and whining from thief players in the forum and not their own but the PVP one, all the while there are classes that can't even smell the meta like warrior or ele where they get a build a for a month that gets delete after a patch or mesmer where chrono is a jumbled mess and mirage has one kitten dodge and yet there are people still playing them and winning even with the handicap.

    They all suck. They all should get changes to help them. Why do you think "thief is terrible right now, but thats ok, because warrior and ele are also terrible" is a gotcha?

    Do I have to make a kitten build play it enough times to get noticed, maybe get it on a AT stream or something, then post it and spread it around and wait for people to complain about it after, so the great thief mains can pick it up to play it.

    Oh please, do try. Try to prove that thief is totally good, and that the best players in the world were wrong for not playing it. Good luck though, you'll need it. And likely fail even with it.

    You continue to say thief bad, thief bad but you haven't given good example that makes it worse than the rest specks, it has received the same treatment as the rest. I explained why it is not in ATs. People build counter rotation comps since only a thief counters a thief these days and that can go either way while disregarding the effort of the other 8 players so people play it safe and maybe boring way, people are using strategy to deny volatility. Thief is just fine in queues since there is no communication and can do its job perfectly fine.

    Simple. Thief is a class that had superior mobility in the form of shortbow 5, but had that counterbalanced by its lack of damage, survivability, utility and healing. Now Shortbow 5 was nerfed, leaving it without the superior mobility, but maintaining its lack of everything else. In simpler terms, thief is just an inferior Ranger/Revenant now. People arent "building counter rotation comps", because for that to make sense, people would have to be playing thief in the first place. No, thief isnt played because thief is bad. No one is building to counter thief because no one plays thief because thief is bad. At this point, Ranger/Revenant counter thief with ease. As does everything else, really.

    Also about the FT thing it shows that you don't really understand how the game works , FT SCRAPPER smorks renegade since it can shut down every everything on it, certain other class is the problem with FT ill let you guess which one.

    If that were the case, it would've been played in the hardstuck league, given that thief was completely absent from it (which I assume you tried to allude to). Its not the case. So it wasnt.

    I could make a build that works but i don't really enjoy thief gameplay that much and spending hours just to spite people while not enjoying the game is not something i would like to do and I don't want to make some cheese that will backfire on me afterwards again . Also I don't really want to theory craft builds for people that don't deserve it.

    You think too highly of yourself if you think you could while all the best players in the world couldnt. Of course you cant make that build. It doesnt exist. Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    OU NO THIEF LOST 1 out of 3 leaps from shortbow get over it already. Thief ain't bad the AT meta will shift at some point and thief will be back and will be fine as is now.

    I don't think you understand. Shortbow 5 isn't just one of thieves skills. It was thief. Shortbow 5, and shortbow 5 alone, was the only reason thief was good. There is no other clas as reliant on one skill as thief and shortbow 5. Thief is bad. No matter how the meta will shift, thief will not return in its current state. It will always be outclassed by ranger and revenant, who give up 1 second on their rotation speed for much higher damage, survivability and utility.

    Also yes I think highly of myself about general knowledge of the game since I mostly rely on out knowing instead of out skilling people to win, also from the hot takes about other classes from the supposedly the best thief (don't know which one is the big deal know though) Sind is that he doesn't really play much the other classes and also iII think he doesn't know what makes them tick, so I think I can do better job at making a build for general queue play, which wouldn't be really that hard since thief is fine there.

    Its clear you do. And its clear you let your complete ignorance of how thief functions not get in the way of that. Its clear you dont know what makes thief tick, so tis clear you can't do a better job than any thief player at making a build for thief. Hence why you dont understand that thief is bad everywhere.

    Strawman allot aren't we for someone that thinks that shortbow is the only way to play . Pretty big words for someone that doesn't know how to theory craft his own main class.

    I don't think you know what a strawman is. And you clearly dont know how thief works if you think shortbow isnt mandatory. I know how to theory craft it, because I used to play it, and I know how it works. What it can and cannot do. You clearly do not.

    YOU KNOW NOTHING JON SNOW, is not really an argument man. DE with D/P or S/P + Rifle clearly doesn't need SB. To save some time you will say something like but DE is bad and will say but DE is probably one of the hardest hitting classes these days by reducing some of its mobility but getting high output and you will say but no one plays it in ATs and The big thief mains don't play DE. And this will go on and on since all your arguments are you are bad and thief is bad and the like. I had my fun with the argument but I don't think I have the power to convince you anything since you return to the same unreasonable thing over and over even though I give you reasonable arguments. That is my own fault for getting entangled and not listening to the OP and the thread name "Do not believe the teef mains".

    And DE sucks. Its issue is that either you play it without shortbow, in which case it sucks because it doesnt have shortbow, or you play it with, and you just get screwed by LoS, projectile block and people teleporting on you. It also doesn't hit that particularly hard, even by todays standards. Not without the enemy being AFK to be hit by DJ, at least. And no, your arguments are the ones that are bad, since your arguments are quite literally "I know better than all the good players despite having already shown that I don't understand thief at all". You have yet to show any reason why thief is totally good. There are no "reasonable arguments" you bring, just a misconception as to how teams are built, and a misconception as to what thief can and cannot do.

    Call me Nostradamus cause I saw your future lol.

    You tried to preemptively dismiss the argument that makes your entire case fall apart, only for me to point out why thats rubbish. You didnt see anything, other than your own bias.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021

    @TheBigPlay.7504 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @TheBigPlay.7504 said:
    Yeah don't believe thief mains.... This guys plays a kitten menders scourge... Dear god.

    Me? I dont even have a necro anymore lmao. Still rocking the same default 5 character slots because I cannot be bothered to spend $20 for another. That's like... a whole kitten steam game.

    I saw you the other day in pvp on a menders scourges. Not only are you defending the most skillest meta in gw2 history you want to keep nerfting thief. When thief is absolutely kitten in the current meta. No wonder PvP in this game is bad. Because people like you that don't understand the game.

    Then you sir are mistaken. You most likely met a different Kuma.

    As you can see. No necro

  • like just keybind about face when vs d/d teef

  • Math.5123Math.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    most mobile class in the game should never be able to 1v1 people, if you think otherwise you are wrong

    That made sense when it was indeed the most mobile by a wide margin. Thats what SB5 is about. But now, its barely more mobile than some alternatives. If all you have to give up for the actual ability to fight is losing 1 second on the rotation, then there is no point to ever not do that. There is a reason thief basically wasn't played at all in the hardstuck league. Except to back up a Mesmer.

    Yeah, it went from mandatory to optional depending on comp. This is how a meta should work.

    The game has revolved around thief for years. The team with the better thief tended to win.
    If you managed to consistently win the thief 1v1, you opened the map up immensely. If you killed the enemy thief, it automatically won you the sides.
    You might think it's a fun meta where the entire game revolves around who gets the +1 first. But it's not fun for non-thief players.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Math.5123 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    most mobile class in the game should never be able to 1v1 people, if you think otherwise you are wrong

    That made sense when it was indeed the most mobile by a wide margin. Thats what SB5 is about. But now, its barely more mobile than some alternatives. If all you have to give up for the actual ability to fight is losing 1 second on the rotation, then there is no point to ever not do that. There is a reason thief basically wasn't played at all in the hardstuck league. Except to back up a Mesmer.

    Yeah, it went from mandatory to optional depending on comp. This is how a meta should work.

    It went from mandatory, to playable in only one extremely niche comp where it plays second fiddle to Mesmer. Given how terrible of a state Mesmer is in, that should tell you everything.

    The game has revolved around thief for years. The team with the better thief tended to win.

    Thief was borderline mandatory, but that wasnt the case. A thief relied a lot on its team, a good thief with a bad team loses to a bad thief with a good team pretty much every time. Oh and its also not exactly true. In HoT, thief was likewise just not really played, it wasnt very good. In PoF, it was good for most of it, but also had a few off metas.

    If you managed to consistently win the thief 1v1, you opened the map up immensely. If you killed the enemy thief, it automatically won you the sides.
    You might think it's a fun meta where the entire game revolves around who gets the +1 first. But it's not fun for non-thief players.

    Im not saying they should give thief SB5 back. I always wanted the nerf, I just expected them to not do it. But now that thief doesn't have their signature superior mobility anymore, its time to compensate thief by giving them back the ability to duel, deal damage and survive. Because if not, why ever pick thief other than to back up a Mesmer through the usage of AoE stealth?

  • What happened to just pressing your elite spin to win on thief and instantly deleting all characters across all worlds?

  • Math.5123Math.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Math.5123 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    most mobile class in the game should never be able to 1v1 people, if you think otherwise you are wrong

    That made sense when it was indeed the most mobile by a wide margin. Thats what SB5 is about. But now, its barely more mobile than some alternatives. If all you have to give up for the actual ability to fight is losing 1 second on the rotation, then there is no point to ever not do that. There is a reason thief basically wasn't played at all in the hardstuck league. Except to back up a Mesmer.

    Yeah, it went from mandatory to optional depending on comp. This is how a meta should work.

    It went from mandatory, to playable in only one extremely niche comp where it plays second fiddle to Mesmer. Given how terrible of a state Mesmer is in, that should tell you everything.

    The game has revolved around thief for years. The team with the better thief tended to win.

    Thief was borderline mandatory, but that wasnt the case. A thief relied a lot on its team, a good thief with a bad team loses to a bad thief with a good team pretty much every time. Oh and its also not exactly true. In HoT, thief was likewise just not really played, it wasnt very good. In PoF, it was good for most of it, but also had a few off metas.

    If you managed to consistently win the thief 1v1, you opened the map up immensely. If you killed the enemy thief, it automatically won you the sides.
    You might think it's a fun meta where the entire game revolves around who gets the +1 first. But it's not fun for non-thief players.

    Im not saying they should give thief SB5 back. I always wanted the nerf, I just expected them to not do it. But now that thief doesn't have their signature superior mobility anymore, its time to compensate thief by giving them back the ability to duel, deal damage and survive. Because if not, why ever pick thief other than to back up a Mesmer through the usage of AoE stealth?

    What you seem to fail to realize is the sheer amount of utility you're downplaying. Thief lets you hide rotations, keep side-noders on sides by just stealthing up before leaving. You still have unparalleled out-of combat mobilty, even though the gap has closed.
    And yes, it's used in conjunction with mesmer right now. I fail to see how that's a bad thing though.

    I'm very fine with thief getting a duelist spec, so long as it doesn't revolve around perma evading or repetitive stealthing. Because that would make it so you can't +1 it. I think S/D is the way to go if you want a duelist spec.
    However, I would remove the unblockable on the first 3 skill and keep it on larc strike. Buffing sword autos and reworking acro into a defensive line with traits that reduce damage and give healing on vigor application. Or something along those lines. So thief doesn't have to depend on stealth or evades to live. That's not engaging for anyone.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Math.5123 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Math.5123 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    most mobile class in the game should never be able to 1v1 people, if you think otherwise you are wrong

    That made sense when it was indeed the most mobile by a wide margin. Thats what SB5 is about. But now, its barely more mobile than some alternatives. If all you have to give up for the actual ability to fight is losing 1 second on the rotation, then there is no point to ever not do that. There is a reason thief basically wasn't played at all in the hardstuck league. Except to back up a Mesmer.

    Yeah, it went from mandatory to optional depending on comp. This is how a meta should work.

    It went from mandatory, to playable in only one extremely niche comp where it plays second fiddle to Mesmer. Given how terrible of a state Mesmer is in, that should tell you everything.

    The game has revolved around thief for years. The team with the better thief tended to win.

    Thief was borderline mandatory, but that wasnt the case. A thief relied a lot on its team, a good thief with a bad team loses to a bad thief with a good team pretty much every time. Oh and its also not exactly true. In HoT, thief was likewise just not really played, it wasnt very good. In PoF, it was good for most of it, but also had a few off metas.

    If you managed to consistently win the thief 1v1, you opened the map up immensely. If you killed the enemy thief, it automatically won you the sides.
    You might think it's a fun meta where the entire game revolves around who gets the +1 first. But it's not fun for non-thief players.

    Im not saying they should give thief SB5 back. I always wanted the nerf, I just expected them to not do it. But now that thief doesn't have their signature superior mobility anymore, its time to compensate thief by giving them back the ability to duel, deal damage and survive. Because if not, why ever pick thief other than to back up a Mesmer through the usage of AoE stealth?

    What you seem to fail to realize is the sheer amount of utility you're downplaying. Thief lets you hide rotations, keep side-noders on sides by just stealthing up before leaving. You still have unparalleled out-of combat mobilty, even though the gap has closed.
    And yes, it's used in conjunction with mesmer right now. I fail to see how that's a bad thing though.

    Thief lets you hide rotations in theory, in practice not really that valuable right now, especially since it is telegraphed if people see the smoke field. It doesn't really let you keep side-noders on sides. Their mobility is only very slightly ahead now ,to the point where its not worth it anymore. You gain 1 second over ranger, and lose a lot in exchange. And it being used only as a second fiddle to the arguably single worst class right now is a pretty terrible state to be in.

    I'm very fine with thief getting a duelist spec, so long as it doesn't revolve around perma evading or repetitive stealthing. Because that would make it so you can't +1 it. I think S/D is the way to go if you want a duelist spec.

    So you want thief to get a duelist spec ... without the neccessary defense to be a duelist spec? It not focusing on stealth is fine. Stealth is garbage in combat anyway. But unless thief gets a lot of block or invuln, it needs to have evades to have a capable duelist.

    However, I would remove the unblockable on the first 3 skill and keep it on larc strike. Buffing sword autos and reworking acro into a defensive line with traits that reduce damage and give healing on vigor application. Or something along those lines. So thief doesn't have to depend on stealth or evades to live. That's not engaging for anyone.

    Why? It has unblockable for a reason. Also, Acro already is a defensive traitline, thats why its terrible. Damage reduction is worthless without blocks or evades. It being evading absolutely is engaging, its more fun to face a warrior or a ranger than a minion mancer scourge. Also, its not just sword autos that need a damage up, all of thieves weapons do, except maybe DE that just needs some of the jank removed. Oh and then after that everyones damage needs to be upped across the board because the meta is garbage.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stalima.5490 said:
    What happened to just pressing your elite spin to win on thief and instantly deleting all characters across all worlds?

    Has someone ever died to daggerstorm? Lol, if so....

  • Math.5123Math.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Math.5123 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Math.5123 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    most mobile class in the game should never be able to 1v1 people, if you think otherwise you are wrong

    That made sense when it was indeed the most mobile by a wide margin. Thats what SB5 is about. But now, its barely more mobile than some alternatives. If all you have to give up for the actual ability to fight is losing 1 second on the rotation, then there is no point to ever not do that. There is a reason thief basically wasn't played at all in the hardstuck league. Except to back up a Mesmer.

    Yeah, it went from mandatory to optional depending on comp. This is how a meta should work.

    It went from mandatory, to playable in only one extremely niche comp where it plays second fiddle to Mesmer. Given how terrible of a state Mesmer is in, that should tell you everything.

    The game has revolved around thief for years. The team with the better thief tended to win.

    Thief was borderline mandatory, but that wasnt the case. A thief relied a lot on its team, a good thief with a bad team loses to a bad thief with a good team pretty much every time. Oh and its also not exactly true. In HoT, thief was likewise just not really played, it wasnt very good. In PoF, it was good for most of it, but also had a few off metas.

    If you managed to consistently win the thief 1v1, you opened the map up immensely. If you killed the enemy thief, it automatically won you the sides.
    You might think it's a fun meta where the entire game revolves around who gets the +1 first. But it's not fun for non-thief players.

    Im not saying they should give thief SB5 back. I always wanted the nerf, I just expected them to not do it. But now that thief doesn't have their signature superior mobility anymore, its time to compensate thief by giving them back the ability to duel, deal damage and survive. Because if not, why ever pick thief other than to back up a Mesmer through the usage of AoE stealth?

    What you seem to fail to realize is the sheer amount of utility you're downplaying. Thief lets you hide rotations, keep side-noders on sides by just stealthing up before leaving. You still have unparalleled out-of combat mobilty, even though the gap has closed.
    And yes, it's used in conjunction with mesmer right now. I fail to see how that's a bad thing though.

    Thief lets you hide rotations in theory, in practice not really that valuable right now, especially since it is telegraphed if people see the smoke field. It doesn't really let you keep side-noders on sides. Their mobility is only very slightly ahead now ,to the point where its not worth it anymore. You gain 1 second over ranger, and lose a lot in exchange. And it being used only as a second fiddle to the arguably single worst class right now is a pretty terrible state to be in.

    I'm very fine with thief getting a duelist spec, so long as it doesn't revolve around perma evading or repetitive stealthing. Because that would make it so you can't +1 it. I think S/D is the way to go if you want a duelist spec.

    So you want thief to get a duelist spec ... without the neccessary defense to be a duelist spec? It not focusing on stealth is fine. Stealth is garbage in combat anyway. But unless thief gets a lot of block or invuln, it needs to have evades to have a capable duelist.

    However, I would remove the unblockable on the first 3 skill and keep it on larc strike. Buffing sword autos and reworking acro into a defensive line with traits that reduce damage and give healing on vigor application. Or something along those lines. So thief doesn't have to depend on stealth or evades to live. That's not engaging for anyone.

    Why? It has unblockable for a reason. Also, Acro already is a defensive traitline, thats why its terrible. Damage reduction is worthless without blocks or evades. It being evading absolutely is engaging, its more fun to face a warrior or a ranger than a minion mancer scourge. Also, its not just sword autos that need a damage up, all of thieves weapons do, except maybe DE that just needs some of the jank removed. Oh and then after that everyones damage needs to be upped across the board because the meta is garbage.

    You're too biased to have a proper discussion with, and you lack the understanding of the inter-class dynamic to understand how nerfs to scourge will be a massive buff to thief.
    Sic'em is bad, it has no play what do ever.

    If you bothered to read, I suggested a Rework to acro in order to let thief get the necessary defensives in order to properly duel.
    Bandits defense is already a block, a pretty good one too.

    Edit: try using smoke blasts from out of sight.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Stalima.5490 said:
    What happened to just pressing your elite spin to win on thief and instantly deleting all characters across all worlds?

    Has someone ever died to daggerstorm? Lol, if so....

    I've seen a slb v thief fight where the slb point blank shotted themselves off a cliff in WvW and died of fall damage. It was hilarious

  • UmbraNoctis.1907UmbraNoctis.1907 Member ✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    I dont know about ATs since i still didnt played one yet, but in ranked (g2-g3 rating) i see thief in almost every game. I mainly play Core condi necro and i get destroyed by DE thiefs without having much chance to do something to them.

    Thieves are always overrepresented in the lower ranks, its the same reason you often got 2 thief teams despite that being an autoloss. But its not played much above that, because its bad.

    Thief is played by some top teams in tournaments.

    Such as? In the Hardstuck league we only really saw the prestige, which used thief as backup for Mesmer. Which, given its mesmer, is not a great sign. They also lost.

    They won EU bracket, then suffered a bit during cross region matches (with thief/mes being more ping sensitive than other meta comps maybe being a factor). Azza's team was 3rd (with DE). And that was before the recent rev nerfs.
    Latest mAT (EU, idk about NA) 3 out of 4 semi final teams were running thief. And Prestige wasn't even one of them.

    Yeah, that was the one team, where Prestige used thief as backup for Mesmer. The Mesmer was more important in that comp. Given Mesmers sorry state, that reflects poorly on thief.

    What are you even babbling here? There was not one, but multiple teams with thief, and not all of them are using mesmer (even if they were, it is irrelevant).
    Whether you like it or not, thief is getting played at competitive lvl once again. You can try to wiggle arround that fact as much as you like, it doesn't matter. The proof is out there.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    I dont know about ATs since i still didnt played one yet, but in ranked (g2-g3 rating) i see thief in almost every game. I mainly play Core condi necro and i get destroyed by DE thiefs without having much chance to do something to them.

    Yeah... that's pretty much as bad a matchup as it gets for core necro 1v1. DE and Ranger are going to be your hardest counters. Best to play with your team if the enemy has one. They're not as useful as you in large scale fights.

    Yep i understand that, but they look good in +1 and small scale fights since it looks like they have very high burst and they can aways choose their fights, because of their mobility and invisibility. Anyway my point is that i think thief is not that unplayed as @UNOwen.7132 claims.

    They're ok for +1s and terrible for small scale fights. Their burst is pathetically low, but they were carried by the fact that they could rotate faster and get into position to burst faster. Now they cannot, anymore. At this point, there is no reason to play thief over ranger or revenant, who burst twice as hard, survive twice as well but only arrive in position 1 second slower. Really, the only useful aspect thief has left is stealthing their team, but thats not really relevant in a low-damage meta like we've had for months.

    Ranger did never and will never compete with thief for a roamer role at high lvl play (unless they significantly buff sic'em slb - which will not happen)

    Of course it will? Similar mobility, much higher damage and survivability. Probably outclassed by Revenant right now, but already superior.

    Then why are there so many more thieves played in tournaments? There are zero top teams running sic'em slb right now. Even after rev nerfs. For good reasons. It has worse mobility (no ports and ports > leaps), the burst is telegraphed and easy to counter and it is susceptible to getting locked down and killed.
    Other ranger builds that might see some occasional play (mostly decap druid atm) fill an entirely different role and are therefore no competition for thief.

    There arent? We saw about as many thieves in the hardstuck league as we saw rangers from what I recall. Same reason, outclassed by revenants. And it doesnt have to be sic em, Ranger does more damage either way. It has very, very slightly worse mobility now. 1 second on a rotation at worst, and on flat maps probably is even slightly faster now. The burst is more telegraphed, but also hits much harder, its actually not easy to counter at all, and if youre +1ing, you shouldnt be getting locked down and killed (and if you are, the thief doesnt escape either).

    We saw about as many mender druids as thieves during hs tournament and mAT. Yes, that's definitely a very scary +1/roamer build ...

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Stalima.5490 said:
    What happened to just pressing your elite spin to win on thief and instantly deleting all characters across all worlds?

    Has someone ever died to daggerstorm? Lol, if so....

    pre-feb dagger storm had dmg coof 5.0
    this is not counting the fact it can also reflect some attacks

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Stalima.5490 said:
    What happened to just pressing your elite spin to win on thief and instantly deleting all characters across all worlds?

    Has someone ever died to daggerstorm? Lol, if so....

    pre-feb dagger storm had dmg coof 5.0
    this is not counting the fact it can also reflect some attacks

    Maybe but it was easily avoided, at least was for me. Its post feb now so pre feb is is kinda irrelevant no?

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Stalima.5490 said:
    What happened to just pressing your elite spin to win on thief and instantly deleting all characters across all worlds?

    Has someone ever died to daggerstorm? Lol, if so....

    pre-feb dagger storm had dmg coof 5.0
    this is not counting the fact it can also reflect some attacks

    Maybe but it was easily avoided, at least was for me. Its post feb now so pre feb is is kinda irrelevant no?

    You asked "Has someone ever died to daggerstorm?".
    For this question, pre feb definitely is relevant.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021

    I took a day to gather my thoughts on this. Some arguments have been condensed because I dont wanna paste walls. If you think I'm strawmanning lemme know.

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Don't listen to them

    No.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Thief bad

    Also no.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    Thief OP

    Also no.

    @A couple people said:
    Thief picking defensive traitlines and utilities then wondering why they dont have damage

    Thief does not have enough active defense options to make going completely glass feasible, and due to the initiative requirements Trickery line is necessary to even function. Fix either option and you will see glassier thieves (much to your displeasure, I surmise.).

    @Math.5123 said:
    nerfs to scourge will be a massive buff to thief.

    Your answer is right but your math is wrong.
    Nerfs to menders will be a thief buff. We already can harass scourges from distance. There's an upset necro still on page 1.

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Then you sir are mistaken. You most likely met a different Kuma.

    Cute.
    Thief needs the following:

    • A buff to sword auto. Damage for swing 1 and swing 2 should be upscaled, and swing 3 should be upscaled as well and possibly provide weakness for a second or two, no more than two. I forgot it did this. Wups.
    • A buff to dagger chain. Damage for swing 1, 2, and 3 should be upscaled.
    • A buff to unload. refund for hitting all shots should be 2 or 3 initiative. Pistol auto is fine.
    • Acro 300 sec cd traits should be reworked, or some additional sustain should be pushed into the minors to offset the fact that those traits are useless.
    • Daredevil skills like palm strike, and uppercut should have a lower CD, and the final strike for palm strike should do heavy damage.
    • Vault should evade until the thief lands on the ground (The evade window should be increased until this point.). Landing a vault should EITHER do heavy damage or have a lower initiative requirement, because of its targeting requirement, and the fact that it is telegraphed. I am more leaning toward it doing more damage to prevent it being spammed. People getting hit by vault and crying about it are bad. The rest of the weapon is fine.
    • Rifle should do more damage on 3. People are just going to spam 2 because the setup time and init investment required to get set up to land 3 properly isnt worth the hassle. Otherwise rifle is fine.

    Alternatively, remove menders.

    Dagger is fine, Pistol Dagger is fine, Sword Dagger is fine. All of these played well can steamroll some other classes and yet they cannot blow people up immediately. without significant investment.
    Deadeye Sword stealth attack should have a look taken at it. It's not appealing as an option and probably needs something else added to entice people to learn it.
    Deadeye and Daredevil are largely fine with the current trait distributions.

    The "Balance" is a fantasy -- another mortal superstition.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Math.5123 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Math.5123 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Math.5123 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    most mobile class in the game should never be able to 1v1 people, if you think otherwise you are wrong

    That made sense when it was indeed the most mobile by a wide margin. Thats what SB5 is about. But now, its barely more mobile than some alternatives. If all you have to give up for the actual ability to fight is losing 1 second on the rotation, then there is no point to ever not do that. There is a reason thief basically wasn't played at all in the hardstuck league. Except to back up a Mesmer.

    Yeah, it went from mandatory to optional depending on comp. This is how a meta should work.

    It went from mandatory, to playable in only one extremely niche comp where it plays second fiddle to Mesmer. Given how terrible of a state Mesmer is in, that should tell you everything.

    The game has revolved around thief for years. The team with the better thief tended to win.

    Thief was borderline mandatory, but that wasnt the case. A thief relied a lot on its team, a good thief with a bad team loses to a bad thief with a good team pretty much every time. Oh and its also not exactly true. In HoT, thief was likewise just not really played, it wasnt very good. In PoF, it was good for most of it, but also had a few off metas.

    If you managed to consistently win the thief 1v1, you opened the map up immensely. If you killed the enemy thief, it automatically won you the sides.
    You might think it's a fun meta where the entire game revolves around who gets the +1 first. But it's not fun for non-thief players.

    Im not saying they should give thief SB5 back. I always wanted the nerf, I just expected them to not do it. But now that thief doesn't have their signature superior mobility anymore, its time to compensate thief by giving them back the ability to duel, deal damage and survive. Because if not, why ever pick thief other than to back up a Mesmer through the usage of AoE stealth?

    What you seem to fail to realize is the sheer amount of utility you're downplaying. Thief lets you hide rotations, keep side-noders on sides by just stealthing up before leaving. You still have unparalleled out-of combat mobilty, even though the gap has closed.
    And yes, it's used in conjunction with mesmer right now. I fail to see how that's a bad thing though.

    Thief lets you hide rotations in theory, in practice not really that valuable right now, especially since it is telegraphed if people see the smoke field. It doesn't really let you keep side-noders on sides. Their mobility is only very slightly ahead now ,to the point where its not worth it anymore. You gain 1 second over ranger, and lose a lot in exchange. And it being used only as a second fiddle to the arguably single worst class right now is a pretty terrible state to be in.

    I'm very fine with thief getting a duelist spec, so long as it doesn't revolve around perma evading or repetitive stealthing. Because that would make it so you can't +1 it. I think S/D is the way to go if you want a duelist spec.

    So you want thief to get a duelist spec ... without the neccessary defense to be a duelist spec? It not focusing on stealth is fine. Stealth is garbage in combat anyway. But unless thief gets a lot of block or invuln, it needs to have evades to have a capable duelist.

    However, I would remove the unblockable on the first 3 skill and keep it on larc strike. Buffing sword autos and reworking acro into a defensive line with traits that reduce damage and give healing on vigor application. Or something along those lines. So thief doesn't have to depend on stealth or evades to live. That's not engaging for anyone.

    Why? It has unblockable for a reason. Also, Acro already is a defensive traitline, thats why its terrible. Damage reduction is worthless without blocks or evades. It being evading absolutely is engaging, its more fun to face a warrior or a ranger than a minion mancer scourge. Also, its not just sword autos that need a damage up, all of thieves weapons do, except maybe DE that just needs some of the jank removed. Oh and then after that everyones damage needs to be upped across the board because the meta is garbage.

    You're too biased to have a proper discussion with, and you lack the understanding of the inter-class dynamic to understand how nerfs to scourge will be a massive buff to thief.

    What nerfs to scourge? For that matter, scourge is one of the few classes thief does somewhat well against, so if anything that is a nerf to thief. So its funny you say I lack understanding.

    Sic'em is bad, it has no play what do ever.

    I dont know why you keep fixating on Sic Em. I never mentioned Sic Em.

    If you bothered to read, I suggested a Rework to acro in order to let thief get the necessary defensives in order to properly duel.

    There has never been a class that was able to go for a duelist playstyle with just passive defenses. Especially not thief, which has inherently the lowest health in the game, and the second-worst armour.

    Bandits defense is already a block, a pretty good one too.

    Its mediocre. Long cooldown, fairly short block duration. Good for the knockdown though, but sadly not worth a slot. Certainly not enough for a duelist.

    Edit: try using smoke blasts from out of sight.

    Enemy roamers exist.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Stalima.5490 said:
    What happened to just pressing your elite spin to win on thief and instantly deleting all characters across all worlds?

    Has someone ever died to daggerstorm? Lol, if so....

    pre-feb dagger storm had dmg coof 5.0
    this is not counting the fact it can also reflect some attacks

    Technically 8.0 actually, it fires 8 daggers each of which did 1.0 damage. At least in theory. In practice, it was janky and often the daggers just didnt hit, and it hit for a lot less.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    • A buff to unload. refund for hitting all shots should be 2 or 3 initiative. Pistol auto is fine.

    Pistol Auto is terrible. Thats the thing that needs the biggest buff, it hits for less than half the damage of any comparable ranged power attack.

    • Acro 300 sec cd traits should be reworked, or some additional sustain should be pushed into the minors to offset the fact that those traits are useless.
    • Daredevil skills like palm strike, and uppercut should have a lower CD, and the final strike for palm strike should do heavy damage.
    • Vault should evade until the thief lands on the ground (The evade window should be increased until this point.). Landing a vault should EITHER do heavy damage or have a lower initiative requirement, because of its targeting requirement, and the fact that it is telegraphed. I am more leaning toward it doing more damage to prevent it being spammed. People getting hit by vault and crying about it are bad. The rest of the weapon is fine.
    • Rifle should do more damage on 3. People are just going to spam 2 because the setup time and init investment required to get set up to land 3 properly isnt worth the hassle. Otherwise rifle is fine.

    It has less to do with setup time and init investment, and more to do with the fact that skirmishers shot also does more damage. But yeah, skill 3 needs a buff, especially unscoped.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    I dont know about ATs since i still didnt played one yet, but in ranked (g2-g3 rating) i see thief in almost every game. I mainly play Core condi necro and i get destroyed by DE thiefs without having much chance to do something to them.

    Thieves are always overrepresented in the lower ranks, its the same reason you often got 2 thief teams despite that being an autoloss. But its not played much above that, because its bad.

    Thief is played by some top teams in tournaments.

    Such as? In the Hardstuck league we only really saw the prestige, which used thief as backup for Mesmer. Which, given its mesmer, is not a great sign. They also lost.

    They won EU bracket, then suffered a bit during cross region matches (with thief/mes being more ping sensitive than other meta comps maybe being a factor). Azza's team was 3rd (with DE). And that was before the recent rev nerfs.
    Latest mAT (EU, idk about NA) 3 out of 4 semi final teams were running thief. And Prestige wasn't even one of them.

    Yeah, that was the one team, where Prestige used thief as backup for Mesmer. The Mesmer was more important in that comp. Given Mesmers sorry state, that reflects poorly on thief.

    What are you even babbling here? There was not one, but multiple teams with thief, and not all of them are using mesmer (even if they were, it is irrelevant).

    As far as I saw, in the top 4 there was only the prestige, playing with mesmer. I know in the EU finals there was another team, also with Mesmer, but they didnt advance.

    Whether you like it or not, thief is getting played at competitive lvl once again. You can try to wiggle arround that fact as much as you like, it doesn't matter. The proof is out there.

    So is Mesmer. Clearly there is no need to buff Mesmer, see its doing just fine. Except they're both extremely underplayed, and for good reason. At the highest level, thief was shunned.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Thief is bad. Its not played for that reason.

    I dont know about ATs since i still didnt played one yet, but in ranked (g2-g3 rating) i see thief in almost every game. I mainly play Core condi necro and i get destroyed by DE thiefs without having much chance to do something to them.

    Yeah... that's pretty much as bad a matchup as it gets for core necro 1v1. DE and Ranger are going to be your hardest counters. Best to play with your team if the enemy has one. They're not as useful as you in large scale fights.

    Yep i understand that, but they look good in +1 and small scale fights since it looks like they have very high burst and they can aways choose their fights, because of their mobility and invisibility. Anyway my point is that i think thief is not that unplayed as @UNOwen.7132 claims.

    They're ok for +1s and terrible for small scale fights. Their burst is pathetically low, but they were carried by the fact that they could rotate faster and get into position to burst faster. Now they cannot, anymore. At this point, there is no reason to play thief over ranger or revenant, who burst twice as hard, survive twice as well but only arrive in position 1 second slower. Really, the only useful aspect thief has left is stealthing their team, but thats not really relevant in a low-damage meta like we've had for months.

    Ranger did never and will never compete with thief for a roamer role at high lvl play (unless they significantly buff sic'em slb - which will not happen)

    Of course it will? Similar mobility, much higher damage and survivability. Probably outclassed by Revenant right now, but already superior.

    Then why are there so many more thieves played in tournaments? There are zero top teams running sic'em slb right now. Even after rev nerfs. For good reasons. It has worse mobility (no ports and ports > leaps), the burst is telegraphed and easy to counter and it is susceptible to getting locked down and killed.
    Other ranger builds that might see some occasional play (mostly decap druid atm) fill an entirely different role and are therefore no competition for thief.

    There arent? We saw about as many thieves in the hardstuck league as we saw rangers from what I recall. Same reason, outclassed by revenants. And it doesnt have to be sic em, Ranger does more damage either way. It has very, very slightly worse mobility now. 1 second on a rotation at worst, and on flat maps probably is even slightly faster now. The burst is more telegraphed, but also hits much harder, its actually not easy to counter at all, and if youre +1ing, you shouldnt be getting locked down and killed (and if you are, the thief doesnt escape either).

    We saw about as many mender druids as thieves during hs tournament and mAT. Yes, that's definitely a very scary +1/roamer build ...

    Fairly certain we also saw a fair few soulbeasts. Though I suppose not in the finals.

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    • A buff to unload. refund for hitting all shots should be 2 or 3 initiative. Pistol auto is fine.

    Pistol Auto is terrible. Thats the thing that needs the biggest buff, it hits for less than half the damage of any comparable ranged power attack.

    I get this but it's like that for a reason. The auto on its own more leans to condi. If you want power, grab a second pistol and unload is your thing (this can also do with a minor damage buff). Otherwise leave the damage low. It's being used by P/d Thieves instead of approaching, and the bleed stack is enough.

    The "Balance" is a fantasy -- another mortal superstition.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    • A buff to unload. refund for hitting all shots should be 2 or 3 initiative. Pistol auto is fine.

    Pistol Auto is terrible. Thats the thing that needs the biggest buff, it hits for less than half the damage of any comparable ranged power attack.

    I get this but it's like that for a reason. The auto on its own more leans to condi. If you want power, grab a second pistol and unload is your thing (this can also do with a minor damage buff). Otherwise leave the damage low. It's being used by P/d Thieves instead of approaching, and the bleed stack is enough.

    The problem is if you only have unload for power damage, you can be shut down really easily. If they dodge just one of the bullets, youll run out of initiative, and then you just have a peashooter.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Stalima.5490 said:
    What happened to just pressing your elite spin to win on thief and instantly deleting all characters across all worlds?

    Has someone ever died to daggerstorm? Lol, if so....

    it used to do a solid 10k damage

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PagAgqDDDsstObpA-zZILBbHA

    An opener with the build above will deal:
    922 [weapon strength] x 2915 [power] x 1.8 [backstab multiplier] x 2.64 [crit multiplier] x (1.05x1.07x1.1x1.07x1.15) [trait multipliers] / 1867 [light armor] =

    10,403 damage

    No might and no vulnerability are in the calculation above. These can easily further increase the damage. And I ignored the havoc specialist trait for obvious reasons.

    Yeah 8k is completely unrealistic. <3

    The problem with the average teef main is that he picks a skillbar of defensive skills, two defensive traitlines and a utility weaponset ... and then he complains about not dealing damage, while ignoring that he plays an uncatchable build, which in his opinion doesn't matter.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PagAgqDDDsstObpA-zZILBbHA

    An opener with the build above will deal:
    922 [weapon strength] x 2915 [power] x 1.8 [backstab multiplier] x 2.64 [crit multiplier] x (1.05x1.07x1.1x1.07x1.15) [trait multipliers] / 1867 [light armor] =

    10,403 damage

    No might and no vulnerability are in the calculation above. These can easily further increase the damage. And I ignored the havoc specialist trait for obvious reasons.

    Yeah 8k is completely unrealistic. <3

    The problem with the average teef main is that he picks a skillbar of defensive skills, two defensive traitlines and a utility weaponset ... and then he complains about not dealing damage, while ignoring that he plays an uncatchable build, which in his opinion doesn't matter.

    how kitten dare you not use every single defensive trait imaginable on thief.
    You sir are braking ToS, its clearly stated that thief in pvp is not allowed to use offensive traits!

    I want to see the 10k backstab videos in pvp you are getting.

    TF Math....show video

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) nom nom nom🥔
    Fun Daredevil

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Stalima.5490 said:
    What happened to just pressing your elite spin to win on thief and instantly deleting all characters across all worlds?

    Has someone ever died to daggerstorm? Lol, if so....

    pre-feb dagger storm had dmg coof 5.0
    this is not counting the fact it can also reflect some attacks

    Technically 8.0 actually, it fires 8 daggers each of which did 1.0 damage. At least in theory. In practice, it was janky and often the daggers just didnt hit, and it hit for a lot less.

    I tested DS, it fired only 5 daggers, at least against 1 target, maybe it fire 8 when there is more, but bottom line was that when you stand on top of someone in 1v1, 5 daggers will be thrown at them if memory serves right