Is Guild Wars 2 Pay2win? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Is Guild Wars 2 Pay2win?

Is Guild Wars 2 Pay2win? 329 votes

Yes
7%
TheSlothArmada.6709Loosmaster.8263Katsugankz.7156Torn Fierceslash.6375Nimrod.9240Roda.7468Luke.4936fatihso.7258Raiden The Beast.3016Kadsik.9281Sir Alymer.3406Cynz.9437Fueki.4753Mortifera.6138avey.4201LeonieAlexia.3750Razorboy.3256Lost Dimension.9014Gwynhara.7261assasin oates.3018 24 votes
No
85%
Ariurotl.3718maddoctor.2738vier.1327Pifil.5193Haishao.6851Just a flesh wound.3589Fenom.9457LucianDK.8615Dondarrion.2748Astralporing.1957DirtyDan.4759Linken.6345IndigoSundown.5419Crono.4197KryTiKaL.3125Svarty.8019Danikat.8537DietPepsi.4371Elenese.1847Ashantara.8731 281 votes
Maybe
7%
Jski.6180catalyst.1358Aeolus.3615Tseison.4659Shadowmoon.7986Quench.7091TheQuickFox.3826Kondor.2904Alexander Dragonfang.1759aspirine.6852Cynder.2509Eekasqueak.7850XPorkyX.2691Tayga.3192SexyMofo.8923voidek.5738Zuldari.3940Black Storm.6974VladimaBlack.5618Joe Schmoe.6981 24 votes
<134

Comments

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021
    No

    Not really. Most transactions which could be considered that in this game are more convenience related although I personally would not consider those P2W. Someone that spends their RL money in the game isn't going to have much of an advantage over players if at all.

  • Zuldari.3940Zuldari.3940 Member ✭✭✭
    Maybe

    I put maybe because it depends on the definition of what you call p2w. In my case its not pay to win overall the only things you buy in the store are like cosmetics and some utility like slots and tabs. But where i have a concern is players that are coming into the game and have bought the expansions dont realize they have to buy all the stories to go with it, unlike other games where the ingame content is there when you buy the expansion. This leaves new players with breaks and holes in the storyline and unable to access full zones and some mounts. And as much as people will say make gold and buy the gems, its not that easy for people that are not veterans. I think its that part of the game where new players then get mad and turned off. They dont realize it till after they hit 80 and start going through the zones , that wait a second something is missing. Then they have to either spend real money on gems or take a long road trying to get gold in game to buy them. Many will just throw up their hands at that point.

    Regardless of what people say, it is almost impossible to keep up with a meta train without skyscale or griffon now.

    Coo! Quaggan Love's You! ♥♥♥

  • WindBlade.8749WindBlade.8749 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    No but yes, they should put living worlds with the dlc associated to it, even if it's make it a little bit more expensive, paying two time the same price later feel way more expensive than paying one time.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    the most close "pay to win" is only if u drag to top end content and metas, some requires status tied to expansions, but theses gamemodes are itself acessible only with expansions, like raids.

    -- Atlantean Sword --
    The secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, Conan. You must learn its discipline. For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts..." [Points to sword] "This you can trust."

  • HnRkLnXqZ.1870HnRkLnXqZ.1870 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    What can be bought with real money?

    • Gw2, Expansions and LW
    • Waypoint unlocks, levelups
    • $ to GEM to GOLD
    • exotic gear, ascended gear via crafting (hilariously expensive) and legendary weapons
    • cosmetics and infusions
    • achievement progression, for stuff you can be carried through (this includes LI and most KP ^^)
    • story-progression

    What cannot be bought with real money?

    • Hero Points and Mastery Points (yet)
    • Mastery EXP, theoretically possible but difficult and tedious
    • skill & class experience, devices have their limits

    How to win GW2?
    This is a MMORPG, where playing together with other players is considered part of the fun. If you rely on a 'device' to get around the skill/experience issue, it is questionable what you bought the game for. If you want to watch someone play GW2, you can just tag along a streamer and save the entire money.

    If you just want an outmaxed character/account and then dive into Endgame content, joke is on you. As long as you are not gifted with a talent to learn stuff from seeing it once and the ability to process it instantly, your /deaths counter will skyrocket until you quit from frustration. Been there, seen a lot.

    The important question for them is: Where to stop with Fast Forward? The more of the content you rush, the less there is for you to enjoy. I have seen players rushing both HoT and PoF, then the LW just to end up with nothing to do but farming. They do Fractals, Raids, Strike Missions and maybe DRMs. But you can enjoy that content without bothering about most of the LW and Expansions. You need to own the Expansions for the Elite Specializations.

    Another problem comes with the Ascended gear requirement. Pretty much every guide out there and every build-page recommends using ascended or legendary gear. Because it has the highest stats and the build-designers always want to reach the highest benchmarks. This however leads to a horrible misconception for new players. They consider everything below Ascended trash. We know this is not the case, but it is almost impossible to change their minds. I've met players who barely knew what class they wanted to play, let alone the build, but worked on their first legendary weapon. Flushed $ after $ down the bowl, crafting the precursor which was a lot cheaper on TP, quitting the game long before reaching T3. So once again: Please make your guides with exotic gear.

    tl&dr; In my opinion, if you play the game Fast Forward with a credit-card, you will not stay long. You probably skip most of the real fun and often end up in places and situations which are rather awkward and frustrating instead. So I vote for no, I consider this system Pay2Lose.

  • Abelisk.5148Abelisk.5148 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021
    No

    It's pay to play not pay to win. Story chapters and elite specs require money. Other than that, gear advancement and skill enhancement definitely do not need money to be spent.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shaogin.2679 said:
    Well you've been around long enough to know for a fact that it isn't Pay2Win. So either you're trolling, or something is on your mind that caused you to arrive at this conclusion. So, which is it?

    the OP has 4 stars next to their arenanet id which indicates that yes, they've been a pretty active forum goer -- so i assume it's the former, they're just trolling lol

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:
    Another problem comes with the Ascended gear requirement. Pretty much every guide out there and every build-page recommends using ascended or legendary gear. Because it has the highest stats and the build-designers always want to reach the highest benchmarks. This however leads to a horrible misconception for new players. They consider everything below Ascended trash. We know this is not the case, but it is almost impossible to change their minds. I've met players who barely knew what class they wanted to play, let alone the build, but worked on their first legendary weapon. Flushed $ after $ down the bowl, crafting the precursor which was a lot cheaper on TP, quitting the game long before reaching T3. So once again: Please make your guides with exotic gear.

    That is not a problem specific to GW2 guides. That is a general people problem of not being unable to to think for themselves.

    It is no different from people doing things and buying stuff just because it is endorsed by a celebrity or thinking they need something because some influener uses it. It is not a recent thing either as there are historical examples of something or another becoming popular simply because some high status person used/had the item.

    People cling to their wants not their needs. Being a game just makes things worse because of the "oh this is just a game I shouldn't need to think" attitude.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes

    Yes, it objectively is pay to win.
    Elite specializations are stronger than core professions and one needs to pay to use them.

  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    It might sound strange but what convinces me that GW2 is not pay to win is that there's very little consensus among players on the best or "must have" gem store items. I think if the game was pay to win there would be some items everyone would recommend because it's impractical or impossible to play without them. But even the more popular recommendations like infinite salvage kits or character slots will have large numbers of people saying they never bothered getting it, or never use it and wouldn't recommend it to other people.

    Danielle Aurorel, Desolation EU. Mini Collector

    "Life's a journey, not a destination."

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astyrah.4015 said:

    @Shaogin.2679 said:
    Well you've been around long enough to know for a fact that it isn't Pay2Win. So either you're trolling, or something is on your mind that caused you to arrive at this conclusion. So, which is it?

    the OP has 4 stars next to their arenanet id which indicates that yes, they've been a pretty active forum goer -- so i assume it's the former, they're just trolling lol

    Ive seen a discussion today in the LA map chat, with many different opinions.

  • Zuldari.3940Zuldari.3940 Member ✭✭✭
    Maybe

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Yes, it objectively is pay to win.
    Elite specializations are stronger than core professions and one needs to pay to use them.

    Expansions witch contain elite specialiations are not considered pay to win.
    Instead you pay to continue playing the game.

    I dont think he is talking about expansions.

    Coo! Quaggan Love's You! ♥♥♥

  • Shadowmoon.7986Shadowmoon.7986 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Maybe

    Xpacs selling especs are somewhat pay2win, i would argue build templates are in wvw in some cases. Templates used to be a bigger issue when cfbs could pretrap as dh and switch to another build with the traps preserved.

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @Astyrah.4015 said:

    @Shaogin.2679 said:
    Well you've been around long enough to know for a fact that it isn't Pay2Win. So either you're trolling, or something is on your mind that caused you to arrive at this conclusion. So, which is it?

    the OP has 4 stars next to their arenanet id which indicates that yes, they've been a pretty active forum goer -- so i assume it's the former, they're just trolling lol

    Ive seen a discussion today in the LA map chat, with many different opinions.

    my bad then, sorry for assuming! :)

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Maybe

    @Shadowmoon.7986 said:
    Xpacs selling especs are somewhat pay2win, i would argue build templates are in wvw in some cases. Templates used to be a bigger issue when cfbs could pretrap as dh and switch to another build with the traps preserved.

    Buys expacts before they get nerfed so one can win agains tplayers w/o the expact that's somehow fake progression and more leaning towards p2w genra not totatly to be called it, but a shady deployment to make people buuy the new cool kid rotations or high damage(at least that's how heart of thorns classes came out).

    Slayers [XD] NSP Guild
    Yao Chen Herald/Ventari
    Ying Wuxian Renegade/Demon

  • Touchme.1097Touchme.1097 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    If GW2 was P2W my character would be so OP he could solo raid bosses with all the money I have spent in this game so far. This game is skill based and quite balanced. I have played in P2W games before, it's not fun when you can solo 100% of the content I have to admit

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @Astyrah.4015 said:

    @Shaogin.2679 said:
    Well you've been around long enough to know for a fact that it isn't Pay2Win. So either you're trolling, or something is on your mind that caused you to arrive at this conclusion. So, which is it?

    the OP has 4 stars next to their arenanet id which indicates that yes, they've been a pretty active forum goer -- so i assume it's the former, they're just trolling lol

    Ive seen a discussion today in the LA map chat, with many different opinions.

    The actual situation is that it depends on the current balance patch, game mode and profession

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    It's not Pay2Win, but it is Pay2Dismay.

    This post contains my opinion.

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021

    @Touchme.1097 said:
    I have played in P2W games before, it's not fun when you can solo 100% of the content I have to admit

    that's when the said p2w game is pve-focused... on a pvp-focused/openworld pvp game, the pay-to-win is three-folds more toxic (super not fun) in comparison even if you try engaging in the p2w yourself - like as long as the other person has spent more money than you, they're more likely to one shot you before you can even try defending yourself out in the open world and they just blaze past you like you were the ambient/grey-tier creatures in GW2 lol.

  • Atomos.7593Atomos.7593 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    In terms of the competitive modes in the game, it's definitely the least pay-to-win I have experienced in any MMORPG I have played so far.

  • Maybe

    I think it might be pay to win a little bit due to in game gold buying with gems... not super major tho. The bigger question is: Can it be pay to win if arena net can't process you gem transaction ;)

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    Absolutely not.

  • Parasite.5389Parasite.5389 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    "You keep using that word... I do not think it means what you think it means"

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Shadowmoon.7986 said:
    Xpacs selling especs are somewhat pay2win, i would argue build templates are in wvw in some cases. Templates used to be a bigger issue when cfbs could pretrap as dh and switch to another build with the traps preserved.

    That's a pretty interesting point. Most definitely the ability to swap to a build instantly given the situation in WvW offers significant advantage to players. I think the fact that everyone gets some templates for free though addresses that sufficiently as well. Not sure if that's good thinking on Anet's part or just luck, but still.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • firedragon.8953firedragon.8953 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    The closest to pay-to-win mechanics is bag slots, material storage, bank expansions, boosters etc. These are not pay to win, however they are big QoL things that make meta events, farming, etc. at the high end much more enjoyable. I do feel that Anet does this on purpose to push purchases of these items with how drops are structured, and hope Anet doesn't decide to include more "broken" mechanics that are fixed by "gem store purchases". With that said, this doesn't make content inaccessible, less fun maybe, but not inaccessible. So they may be "pay for fun and convenience" rather than "pay to win", but I don't think they ever crossed the line just because being level 80 with full legendary or whatever doesn't really mean winning gw2 as the game is mainly co-op except for specific competitive modes which rely much less on gear, level, etc.

    Expansions are content, and sure they come with big advantages, but they are unlocked through the completion of content in said expansions.

    I'd argue that GW2 is not really a real free to play game (because expansion content is GW2), but it is definitely not a pay to win game.

  • Tukaram.8256Tukaram.8256 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    No. The store has some convenience items, but nothing of real value. Sure, you can buy unlimited use harvesting and salvaging tools - but that is not a big deal. The weapons & armor have to be obtained in game, all the store has is skins (which are useless). You cannot even buy the required materials in the store, you have to collect them yourself or buy them from another player.

    If you could buy top notch gear, and mounts, directly in the store - then it would be a valid concern.

  • Quench.7091Quench.7091 Member ✭✭✭
    Maybe

    It isn't major, because you cannot change builds in combat, but some classes can break combat if they're about to lose to swap builds in WvW. You can also lay down traps or boon and swap builds. Very minor, but it's there.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    Anyone who thinks this game is at all pay2win needs to try playing Korean stuff, you'll learn what pay2win really means there.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

    There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021
    No

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

    There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

    Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

    If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Daddy.8125Daddy.8125 Member ✭✭
    Maybe

    You could make the argument it is as buying expansions is nessercary to be meta, however I'd also state it's very much acceptable.

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

    There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

    Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

    If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

    Vindictus provides some PvE examples(this was from back when I played it which was years ago so things may have changed). There were There were instances that you can only run once a day but you can pay to reset and run it multiple times. An even clearer example is a team wipe would equal failing the instance(and using up the 1/day limit) but there were cash shop items that lets you either ress yourself or the whole team.

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

    There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

    Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

    If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

    No, it's not my personal definition. It's the definition that's applied for 15 years, or more. That I only listed a couple of examples doesn't mean it's just "well, it doesn't count because it's only PvP"... The problem is, the definition "everyone else uses" includes purely cosmetic items, which I've seen on these very forums. "Ooo, he got a mount skin I don't have, P2W"... It seems to me like the last thread along these lines wasn't all that long ago, where the whole CS was predatory, etc. etc.

    Of course, the other problem with you're denial of the definition is that, initially, P2W meant literally that, paying to win. I used the PvP example because it's very clearly "winning". The example from Vindictus, of being able to reset what's supposed to be dailies is another example, they also had actual gear with bonuses in their CS, Tera does as well. swtor requires either a sub, or for you to purchase an unlock to equip artifact grade equipment. It also has a lockout for activities that require unlocks, or a sub, to bypass. So instead of me going on and on with examples of actual P2W scenarios, how about this: Lay out what you feel is P2W here.

  • No

    That 8 people that at the time of writing this post, have voted for "yes" must have never seen a truelly p2w title, in their life.....

    To provide some examples:
    Already mentioned in this thread: Black Desert Online, quick summary for those who don;t want to click YT links:
    1. non-consensual open-world PvP exists,
    2. PvP is determined first and foremost by gear and level in there. If you have properly enchanted BiS gear, you can do all kinds of blunders against oponent who isn't quite there yet, and they will still be unable to do anything against you, similary if you happen to have 4 or 5 levels of advantage as well.
    3. Gear enhancing is costly process with alot of rng involved, so to stay competitive you need to be able to outgrind everyone else, which means you need good farming spot, and need to be able to kill anyone that comes to that spot with intent of fighting over it,
    4. Pearl store items contain real bonuses that will be borderline impossible to obtain for non-paying user, and the only way to do so, gives more emporement to the one spending rl cash, doe to ability to stay ahead of silver farming curve by getting additional silver through buying and reselling pearl-store items, or just buying and melting them outfits (literaly): bonuses include but are not limited to: loot autopickup, automatic detection of potentially hostile players, automatic use of potions, character stats improvements, access to bank/marketplace without having to talk to an NPC (first and last one super important for farming efficiency)
    5. Bonus points, BDO does not have the nice feature of gw2, where loot is determined solely on per player basis - which means that in terms of farming if you don't have sufficient amount of pets to pickup loot for you, people will steal your loot

    So in short, you have a game where to stay competitive, you need to outgrind your opponents, where premium shop is exclusive source of multiple bonuses to that aspect.

    Another Example: Air Rivals (went kinda bankrupt and re-released under old title of Ace Online, earlier releases under names of Ace Online, Space Cowboys Online)
    similar deal, Open world non-consensual PvP (whole game is basically built around conflict between two factions) and gear+levels comes above anything else in terms of who wins engagement. So not only they sold actuall gear (that was arguably best best gear to start upgrading from for couple vehicles/classes) in the premium shop, they also sold premium accounts that meant you would get experience faster (remember level difference matters there), but also gear enhancing process included static attribute enhancement (for example weapon refire upgrade would reduce delay between firing weapons by same 0.1s each) and a soft cap of 5-6 upgrades - above that any upgrade attempt had a risk of destroying item completely irreversably. And of course premium shop had item to prevent that from happening. Turned out interestingly, when all the guides online said that getting +9 guns is probably limit of what's sane to do, and then couple rich kids decided to swipe credit card and got themselves +11, and started obliterating whole squadrons of "mere mortals" with +9s, solo.

    As for that guy who claimed that elite specs being sold with expansions, in all fairness and with all due respect, that claim is laughtable.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021
    No

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

    There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

    Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

    If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

    No, it's not my personal definition. It's the definition that's applied for 15 years, or more. That I only listed a couple of examples doesn't mean it's just "well, it doesn't count because it's only PvP"... The problem is, the definition "everyone else uses" includes purely cosmetic items, which I've seen on these very forums. "Ooo, he got a mount skin I don't have, P2W"... It seems to me like the last thread along these lines wasn't all that long ago, where the whole CS was predatory, etc. etc.

    Of course, the other problem with you're denial of the definition is that, initially, P2W meant literally that, paying to win. I used the PvP example because it's very clearly "winning". The example from Vindictus, of being able to reset what's supposed to be dailies is another example, they also had actual gear with bonuses in their CS, Tera does as well. swtor requires either a sub, or for you to purchase an unlock to equip artifact grade equipment. It also has a lockout for activities that require unlocks, or a sub, to bypass. So instead of me going on and on with examples of actual P2W scenarios, how about this: Lay out what you feel is P2W here.

    Except it is your personal definition that GW2 isn't P2W while using the definition you gave. And this is a wrong statement to make if we're applying your definition.

    Let us use the definition you gave: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."
    If we are strict in the usage of the definition you gave, many things will give an advantage, no matter how small that advantage may be and no matter the gamemode.

    This includes things like exp boosters (any boosters), the skyscale (requires LW unlocks), the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock), the Infinite Continue Coin, revive orbs, easier access to ascended gear via LW, Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts). All of those items give an advantage to a player compared to a player that doesn't have them.

    So strictly using the definition you gave, GW2 would count as a game with P2W items in the shop, unless you're denying that any of those items give an advantage that is non-cosmetic.

    By saying "No", you are actually going against the original meaning you gave, ignoring items that are not cosmetic items. So you're already using a warped P2W definition.

    (For the record, I don't think GW2 is P2W, but going by the "15 years definition", it would be, as there are items that give advantages in the shop. That's what my original post was about, that people don't use the original meaning anymore, but a warped version of it which allows soft-advantages like exp-boosts etc.)

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • mercury ranique.2170mercury ranique.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    First issue in answering this question is answering what is pay to win.
    This means you have to describe what winning is.
    When you look at competitive gameplay, there is nothing legal where you can buy your success in any way. This definitly leans to not pay to win.
    When you look at open world game play. The first thing to note is that it is cooperative. We all work together to a common goal. That some people are more succesfull and effective is besides the point. So this one leans to not pay to win as well.
    Now people might make some stranger competitions in their head. Like how quick you can gain wealth in GW2. So let's focus on this. The most lucrative ways to gain gold are not pay to win. There are some minor advantages that can be bought, but they really do not make the difference in the bigger scale of gold making.
    The last is what people consider end game and fashion wars.
    The first question is how you can win a vanity contest? I have been judge in several "best looking" competition in GW2 and I never ruled out Gemstore items, but also never was under the impression that they are automatically the best ones.

    Most importantly, there is nothing in the game that can not be achieved with just money. Everything can also be bought with gold and nothing is unavailable for those who do not buy gems.

    If you have bought the game, the expansions and the other DLC's (living world), you have everything you need to get whatever item you want.

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

    There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

    Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

    If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

    No, it's not my personal definition. It's the definition that's applied for 15 years, or more. That I only listed a couple of examples doesn't mean it's just "well, it doesn't count because it's only PvP"... The problem is, the definition "everyone else uses" includes purely cosmetic items, which I've seen on these very forums. "Ooo, he got a mount skin I don't have, P2W"... It seems to me like the last thread along these lines wasn't all that long ago, where the whole CS was predatory, etc. etc.

    Of course, the other problem with you're denial of the definition is that, initially, P2W meant literally that, paying to win. I used the PvP example because it's very clearly "winning". The example from Vindictus, of being able to reset what's supposed to be dailies is another example, they also had actual gear with bonuses in their CS, Tera does as well. swtor requires either a sub, or for you to purchase an unlock to equip artifact grade equipment. It also has a lockout for activities that require unlocks, or a sub, to bypass. So instead of me going on and on with examples of actual P2W scenarios, how about this: Lay out what you feel is P2W here.

    Except it is your personal definition that GW2 isn't P2W while using the definition you gave. And this is a wrong statement to make if we're applying your definition.

    Let us use the definition you gave: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."
    If we are strict in the usage of the definition you gave, many things will give an advantage, no matter how small that advantage may be and no matter the gamemode.

    This includes things like exp boosters (any boosters), the skyscale (requires LW unlocks), the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock), the Infinite Continue Coin, revive orbs, easier access to ascended gear via LW, Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts). All of those items give an advantage to a player compared to a player that doesn't have them.

    So strictly using the definition you gave, GW2 would count as a game with P2W items in the shop, unless you're denying that any of those items give an advantage that is non-cosmetic.

    By saying "No", you are actually going against the original meaning you gave, ignoring items that are not cosmetic items. So you're already using a warped P2W definition.

    (For the record, I don't think GW2 is P2W, but going by the "15 years definition", it would be, as there are items that give advantages in the shop. That's what my original post was about, that people don't use the original meaning anymore, but a warped version of it which allows soft-advantages like exp-boosts etc.)

    Because this is the definition. It is exactly the situation that the term was coined to define. What has become the norm is "microtransactions == P2W", no matter what those transactions are. This includes cosmetics, that add absolutely nothing but appearance changes, mount skins, or even mounts, even when the mount doesn't do anything differently from one readily obtainable in game, except for how it looks. It's even carried over to SP games in the same fashion, where it makes absolutely 0 difference what a player buys, or doesn't buy. So yes, I'd prefer we stick to what P2W actually means, instead of this cobbled together excuse to run at microtransactions. It's not like I'm a big proponent of microtransactions either, I haven't spent fifty bucks on them in the last year, let alone the last few weeks, unlike some players that will. I'm not a fan of loot crates either, to the point where I don't even buy them with a game's stipend of cash shop currency that comes with a sub. However, just the existence of a cash shop does not equate P2W, and you can bet that that's where this thread was wanting to go.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021
    No

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

    There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

    Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

    If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

    No, it's not my personal definition. It's the definition that's applied for 15 years, or more. That I only listed a couple of examples doesn't mean it's just "well, it doesn't count because it's only PvP"... The problem is, the definition "everyone else uses" includes purely cosmetic items, which I've seen on these very forums. "Ooo, he got a mount skin I don't have, P2W"... It seems to me like the last thread along these lines wasn't all that long ago, where the whole CS was predatory, etc. etc.

    Of course, the other problem with you're denial of the definition is that, initially, P2W meant literally that, paying to win. I used the PvP example because it's very clearly "winning". The example from Vindictus, of being able to reset what's supposed to be dailies is another example, they also had actual gear with bonuses in their CS, Tera does as well. swtor requires either a sub, or for you to purchase an unlock to equip artifact grade equipment. It also has a lockout for activities that require unlocks, or a sub, to bypass. So instead of me going on and on with examples of actual P2W scenarios, how about this: Lay out what you feel is P2W here.

    Except it is your personal definition that GW2 isn't P2W while using the definition you gave. And this is a wrong statement to make if we're applying your definition.

    Let us use the definition you gave: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."
    If we are strict in the usage of the definition you gave, many things will give an advantage, no matter how small that advantage may be and no matter the gamemode.

    This includes things like exp boosters (any boosters), the skyscale (requires LW unlocks), the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock), the Infinite Continue Coin, revive orbs, easier access to ascended gear via LW, Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts). All of those items give an advantage to a player compared to a player that doesn't have them.

    So strictly using the definition you gave, GW2 would count as a game with P2W items in the shop, unless you're denying that any of those items give an advantage that is non-cosmetic.

    By saying "No", you are actually going against the original meaning you gave, ignoring items that are not cosmetic items. So you're already using a warped P2W definition.

    (For the record, I don't think GW2 is P2W, but going by the "15 years definition", it would be, as there are items that give advantages in the shop. That's what my original post was about, that people don't use the original meaning anymore, but a warped version of it which allows soft-advantages like exp-boosts etc.)

    Because this is the definition. It is exactly the situation that the term was coined to define. What has become the norm is "microtransactions == P2W", no matter what those transactions are. This includes cosmetics, that add absolutely nothing but appearance changes, mount skins, or even mounts, even when the mount doesn't do anything differently from one readily obtainable in game, except for how it looks. It's even carried over to SP games in the same fashion, where it makes absolutely 0 difference what a player buys, or doesn't buy. So yes, I'd prefer we stick to what P2W actually means, instead of this cobbled together excuse to run at microtransactions. It's not like I'm a big proponent of microtransactions either, I haven't spent fifty bucks on them in the last year, let alone the last few weeks, unlike some players that will. I'm not a fan of loot crates either, to the point where I don't even buy them with a game's stipend of cash shop currency that comes with a sub. However, just the existence of a cash shop does not equate P2W, and you can bet that that's where this thread was wanting to go.

    So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages in my previous post, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

    You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020