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Is Guild Wars 2 Pay2win?

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  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021
    No

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

    There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

    Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

    If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

    No, it's not my personal definition. It's the definition that's applied for 15 years, or more. That I only listed a couple of examples doesn't mean it's just "well, it doesn't count because it's only PvP"... The problem is, the definition "everyone else uses" includes purely cosmetic items, which I've seen on these very forums. "Ooo, he got a mount skin I don't have, P2W"... It seems to me like the last thread along these lines wasn't all that long ago, where the whole CS was predatory, etc. etc.

    Of course, the other problem with you're denial of the definition is that, initially, P2W meant literally that, paying to win. I used the PvP example because it's very clearly "winning". The example from Vindictus, of being able to reset what's supposed to be dailies is another example, they also had actual gear with bonuses in their CS, Tera does as well. swtor requires either a sub, or for you to purchase an unlock to equip artifact grade equipment. It also has a lockout for activities that require unlocks, or a sub, to bypass. So instead of me going on and on with examples of actual P2W scenarios, how about this: Lay out what you feel is P2W here.

    Except it is your personal definition that GW2 isn't P2W while using the definition you gave. And this is a wrong statement to make if we're applying your definition.

    Let us use the definition you gave: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."
    If we are strict in the usage of the definition you gave, many things will give an advantage, no matter how small that advantage may be and no matter the gamemode.

    This includes things like exp boosters (any boosters), the skyscale (requires LW unlocks), the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock), the Infinite Continue Coin, revive orbs, easier access to ascended gear via LW, Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts). All of those items give an advantage to a player compared to a player that doesn't have them.

    So strictly using the definition you gave, GW2 would count as a game with P2W items in the shop, unless you're denying that any of those items give an advantage that is non-cosmetic.

    By saying "No", you are actually going against the original meaning you gave, ignoring items that are not cosmetic items. So you're already using a warped P2W definition.

    (For the record, I don't think GW2 is P2W, but going by the "15 years definition", it would be, as there are items that give advantages in the shop. That's what my original post was about, that people don't use the original meaning anymore, but a warped version of it which allows soft-advantages like exp-boosts etc.)

    Because this is the definition. It is exactly the situation that the term was coined to define. What has become the norm is "microtransactions == P2W", no matter what those transactions are. This includes cosmetics, that add absolutely nothing but appearance changes, mount skins, or even mounts, even when the mount doesn't do anything differently from one readily obtainable in game, except for how it looks. It's even carried over to SP games in the same fashion, where it makes absolutely 0 difference what a player buys, or doesn't buy. So yes, I'd prefer we stick to what P2W actually means, instead of this cobbled together excuse to run at microtransactions. It's not like I'm a big proponent of microtransactions either, I haven't spent fifty bucks on them in the last year, let alone the last few weeks, unlike some players that will. I'm not a fan of loot crates either, to the point where I don't even buy them with a game's stipend of cash shop currency that comes with a sub. However, just the existence of a cash shop does not equate P2W, and you can bet that that's where this thread was wanting to go.

    So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

    You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

    Such as? How does my bank space give me an advantage over you? Are you incapable of selling off items because your inventory space is lower? Will your reaching level cap adversely affect my game play? What's being warped is "advantage", and I'm not the one warping it. Instead, we're looking at exactly what I listed in my last post: But microtransactions are P2W.

    Skyscale LW unlocks: Just LoL? I got the LW for free. I guess logging in is now P2W? This is using your own example here, and you list having it as P2W, so if all one did was log in, it's P2W? This is exactly what I'm talking about with taking what's P2W to the absurd. Congratulations for proving my point?

    Ah, I see. You've cleverly left out:

    • exp boosters (any boosters) , which aren't P2W in your warped opinion about P2W, but definitely are P2W going by the original definition
    • the Infinite Continue Coin
    • revive orbs
    • easier access to ascended gear via LW
    • Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts)

    because it directly contradicts your point. All of them give a paying player an advantage, even if that advantage is small.

    • the skyscale (requires LW unlocks)
    • the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock)

    Are also not free. This is a common misconception some players make. You see, you only get the Living World episodes for free while they're recent. Any new player will still have to pay to get the same advantage. Even if you did get them for logging in, other players that didn't get them are still at a disadvantage.
    Oh, and let me repeat what you originally stated, again: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."

    LW with the mounts, as well as the rest, sure sound like a buyable advantages to me. Also, this is not taking what's P2W to the absurd, I'm simply using the definition you originally gave (even if you yourself are using a warped, different one).

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • No

    It's hard to see how GW2 could be pay-to-win. I don't even understand what "winning" in an MMO like this even means.

  • mercury ranique.2170mercury ranique.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

    There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

    Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

    If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

    No, it's not my personal definition. It's the definition that's applied for 15 years, or more. That I only listed a couple of examples doesn't mean it's just "well, it doesn't count because it's only PvP"... The problem is, the definition "everyone else uses" includes purely cosmetic items, which I've seen on these very forums. "Ooo, he got a mount skin I don't have, P2W"... It seems to me like the last thread along these lines wasn't all that long ago, where the whole CS was predatory, etc. etc.

    Of course, the other problem with you're denial of the definition is that, initially, P2W meant literally that, paying to win. I used the PvP example because it's very clearly "winning". The example from Vindictus, of being able to reset what's supposed to be dailies is another example, they also had actual gear with bonuses in their CS, Tera does as well. swtor requires either a sub, or for you to purchase an unlock to equip artifact grade equipment. It also has a lockout for activities that require unlocks, or a sub, to bypass. So instead of me going on and on with examples of actual P2W scenarios, how about this: Lay out what you feel is P2W here.

    Except it is your personal definition that GW2 isn't P2W while using the definition you gave. And this is a wrong statement to make if we're applying your definition.

    Let us use the definition you gave: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."
    If we are strict in the usage of the definition you gave, many things will give an advantage, no matter how small that advantage may be and no matter the gamemode.

    This includes things like exp boosters (any boosters), the skyscale (requires LW unlocks), the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock), the Infinite Continue Coin, revive orbs, easier access to ascended gear via LW, Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts). All of those items give an advantage to a player compared to a player that doesn't have them.

    So strictly using the definition you gave, GW2 would count as a game with P2W items in the shop, unless you're denying that any of those items give an advantage that is non-cosmetic.

    By saying "No", you are actually going against the original meaning you gave, ignoring items that are not cosmetic items. So you're already using a warped P2W definition.

    (For the record, I don't think GW2 is P2W, but going by the "15 years definition", it would be, as there are items that give advantages in the shop. That's what my original post was about, that people don't use the original meaning anymore, but a warped version of it which allows soft-advantages like exp-boosts etc.)

    Because this is the definition. It is exactly the situation that the term was coined to define. What has become the norm is "microtransactions == P2W", no matter what those transactions are. This includes cosmetics, that add absolutely nothing but appearance changes, mount skins, or even mounts, even when the mount doesn't do anything differently from one readily obtainable in game, except for how it looks. It's even carried over to SP games in the same fashion, where it makes absolutely 0 difference what a player buys, or doesn't buy. So yes, I'd prefer we stick to what P2W actually means, instead of this cobbled together excuse to run at microtransactions. It's not like I'm a big proponent of microtransactions either, I haven't spent fifty bucks on them in the last year, let alone the last few weeks, unlike some players that will. I'm not a fan of loot crates either, to the point where I don't even buy them with a game's stipend of cash shop currency that comes with a sub. However, just the existence of a cash shop does not equate P2W, and you can bet that that's where this thread was wanting to go.

    So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

    You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

    Such as? How does my bank space give me an advantage over you? Are you incapable of selling off items because your inventory space is lower? Will your reaching level cap adversely affect my game play? What's being warped is "advantage", and I'm not the one warping it. Instead, we're looking at exactly what I listed in my last post: But microtransactions are P2W.

    Skyscale LW unlocks: Just LoL? I got the LW for free. I guess logging in is now P2W? This is using your own example here, and you list having it as P2W, so if all one did was log in, it's P2W? This is exactly what I'm talking about with taking what's P2W to the absurd. Congratulations for proving my point?

    Ah, I see. You've cleverly left out:

    • exp boosters (any boosters) , which aren't P2W in your warped opinion about P2W, but definitely are P2W going by the original definition
    • the Infinite Continue Coin
    • revive orbs
    • easier access to ascended gear via LW
    • Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts)

    because it directly contradicts your point. All of them give a paying player an advantage, even if that advantage is small.

    • the skyscale (requires LW unlocks)
    • the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock)

    Are also not free. This is a common misconception some players make. You see, you only get the Living World episodes for free while they're recent. Any new player will still have to pay to get the same advantage. Even if you did get them for logging in, other players that didn't get them are still at a disadvantage.
    Oh, and let me repeat what you originally stated, again: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."

    LW with the mounts, as well as the rest, sure sound like a buyable advantages to me. Also, this is not taking what's P2W to the absurd, I'm simply using the definition you originally gave (even if you yourself are using a warped, different one).

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Currency_exchange
    Gems store items are not exclusive to people with money. You can farm the gold and buy the gems and items you want.
    These items are perhaps exclusive for the gemsstore, but not exclusive for those with a big wallet in real life.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021
    No

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

    There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

    Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

    If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

    No, it's not my personal definition. It's the definition that's applied for 15 years, or more. That I only listed a couple of examples doesn't mean it's just "well, it doesn't count because it's only PvP"... The problem is, the definition "everyone else uses" includes purely cosmetic items, which I've seen on these very forums. "Ooo, he got a mount skin I don't have, P2W"... It seems to me like the last thread along these lines wasn't all that long ago, where the whole CS was predatory, etc. etc.

    Of course, the other problem with you're denial of the definition is that, initially, P2W meant literally that, paying to win. I used the PvP example because it's very clearly "winning". The example from Vindictus, of being able to reset what's supposed to be dailies is another example, they also had actual gear with bonuses in their CS, Tera does as well. swtor requires either a sub, or for you to purchase an unlock to equip artifact grade equipment. It also has a lockout for activities that require unlocks, or a sub, to bypass. So instead of me going on and on with examples of actual P2W scenarios, how about this: Lay out what you feel is P2W here.

    Except it is your personal definition that GW2 isn't P2W while using the definition you gave. And this is a wrong statement to make if we're applying your definition.

    Let us use the definition you gave: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."
    If we are strict in the usage of the definition you gave, many things will give an advantage, no matter how small that advantage may be and no matter the gamemode.

    This includes things like exp boosters (any boosters), the skyscale (requires LW unlocks), the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock), the Infinite Continue Coin, revive orbs, easier access to ascended gear via LW, Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts). All of those items give an advantage to a player compared to a player that doesn't have them.

    So strictly using the definition you gave, GW2 would count as a game with P2W items in the shop, unless you're denying that any of those items give an advantage that is non-cosmetic.

    By saying "No", you are actually going against the original meaning you gave, ignoring items that are not cosmetic items. So you're already using a warped P2W definition.

    (For the record, I don't think GW2 is P2W, but going by the "15 years definition", it would be, as there are items that give advantages in the shop. That's what my original post was about, that people don't use the original meaning anymore, but a warped version of it which allows soft-advantages like exp-boosts etc.)

    Because this is the definition. It is exactly the situation that the term was coined to define. What has become the norm is "microtransactions == P2W", no matter what those transactions are. This includes cosmetics, that add absolutely nothing but appearance changes, mount skins, or even mounts, even when the mount doesn't do anything differently from one readily obtainable in game, except for how it looks. It's even carried over to SP games in the same fashion, where it makes absolutely 0 difference what a player buys, or doesn't buy. So yes, I'd prefer we stick to what P2W actually means, instead of this cobbled together excuse to run at microtransactions. It's not like I'm a big proponent of microtransactions either, I haven't spent fifty bucks on them in the last year, let alone the last few weeks, unlike some players that will. I'm not a fan of loot crates either, to the point where I don't even buy them with a game's stipend of cash shop currency that comes with a sub. However, just the existence of a cash shop does not equate P2W, and you can bet that that's where this thread was wanting to go.

    So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

    You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

    Such as? How does my bank space give me an advantage over you? Are you incapable of selling off items because your inventory space is lower? Will your reaching level cap adversely affect my game play? What's being warped is "advantage", and I'm not the one warping it. Instead, we're looking at exactly what I listed in my last post: But microtransactions are P2W.

    Skyscale LW unlocks: Just LoL? I got the LW for free. I guess logging in is now P2W? This is using your own example here, and you list having it as P2W, so if all one did was log in, it's P2W? This is exactly what I'm talking about with taking what's P2W to the absurd. Congratulations for proving my point?

    Ah, I see. You've cleverly left out:

    • exp boosters (any boosters) , which aren't P2W in your warped opinion about P2W, but definitely are P2W going by the original definition
    • the Infinite Continue Coin
    • revive orbs
    • easier access to ascended gear via LW
    • Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts)

    because it directly contradicts your point. All of them give a paying player an advantage, even if that advantage is small.

    • the skyscale (requires LW unlocks)
    • the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock)

    Are also not free. This is a common misconception some players make. You see, you only get the Living World episodes for free while they're recent. Any new player will still have to pay to get the same advantage. Even if you did get them for logging in, other players that didn't get them are still at a disadvantage.
    Oh, and let me repeat what you originally stated, again: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."

    LW with the mounts, as well as the rest, sure sound like a buyable advantages to me. Also, this is not taking what's P2W to the absurd, I'm simply using the definition you originally gave (even if you yourself are using a warped, different one).

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Currency_exchange
    Gems store items are not exclusive to people with money. You can farm the gold and buy the gems and items you want.
    These items are perhaps exclusive for the gemsstore, but not exclusive for those with a big wallet in real life.

    That's great, but misses the point I'm arguing completely. This is about if someone gains any advantage at all by paying with real money, which they do. So by @robertthebard.8150 initial definition, they'd essentially be paying to win.

    Your argument would also mean that any item in the gem shop is fine, as anyone is able to buy it. So any boost that enhances damage by 7777% would be fine.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    That depends on what "winning" is. If we talk about looks, eg gemstore and/or blacklion exclusive skins, or buying your way through pve raids for the skins, the answer is "maybe".
    If we talk about good old fashioned "better stats aka advantage overy enemies", the answer is a big no.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021
    No

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

    There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

    Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

    If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

    No, it's not my personal definition. It's the definition that's applied for 15 years, or more. That I only listed a couple of examples doesn't mean it's just "well, it doesn't count because it's only PvP"... The problem is, the definition "everyone else uses" includes purely cosmetic items, which I've seen on these very forums. "Ooo, he got a mount skin I don't have, P2W"... It seems to me like the last thread along these lines wasn't all that long ago, where the whole CS was predatory, etc. etc.

    Of course, the other problem with you're denial of the definition is that, initially, P2W meant literally that, paying to win. I used the PvP example because it's very clearly "winning". The example from Vindictus, of being able to reset what's supposed to be dailies is another example, they also had actual gear with bonuses in their CS, Tera does as well. swtor requires either a sub, or for you to purchase an unlock to equip artifact grade equipment. It also has a lockout for activities that require unlocks, or a sub, to bypass. So instead of me going on and on with examples of actual P2W scenarios, how about this: Lay out what you feel is P2W here.

    Except it is your personal definition that GW2 isn't P2W while using the definition you gave. And this is a wrong statement to make if we're applying your definition.

    Let us use the definition you gave: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."
    If we are strict in the usage of the definition you gave, many things will give an advantage, no matter how small that advantage may be and no matter the gamemode.

    This includes things like exp boosters (any boosters), the skyscale (requires LW unlocks), the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock), the Infinite Continue Coin, revive orbs, easier access to ascended gear via LW, Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts). All of those items give an advantage to a player compared to a player that doesn't have them.

    So strictly using the definition you gave, GW2 would count as a game with P2W items in the shop, unless you're denying that any of those items give an advantage that is non-cosmetic.

    By saying "No", you are actually going against the original meaning you gave, ignoring items that are not cosmetic items. So you're already using a warped P2W definition.

    (For the record, I don't think GW2 is P2W, but going by the "15 years definition", it would be, as there are items that give advantages in the shop. That's what my original post was about, that people don't use the original meaning anymore, but a warped version of it which allows soft-advantages like exp-boosts etc.)

    Because this is the definition. It is exactly the situation that the term was coined to define. What has become the norm is "microtransactions == P2W", no matter what those transactions are. This includes cosmetics, that add absolutely nothing but appearance changes, mount skins, or even mounts, even when the mount doesn't do anything differently from one readily obtainable in game, except for how it looks. It's even carried over to SP games in the same fashion, where it makes absolutely 0 difference what a player buys, or doesn't buy. So yes, I'd prefer we stick to what P2W actually means, instead of this cobbled together excuse to run at microtransactions. It's not like I'm a big proponent of microtransactions either, I haven't spent fifty bucks on them in the last year, let alone the last few weeks, unlike some players that will. I'm not a fan of loot crates either, to the point where I don't even buy them with a game's stipend of cash shop currency that comes with a sub. However, just the existence of a cash shop does not equate P2W, and you can bet that that's where this thread was wanting to go.

    So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

    You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

    Such as? How does my bank space give me an advantage over you? Are you incapable of selling off items because your inventory space is lower? Will your reaching level cap adversely affect my game play? What's being warped is "advantage", and I'm not the one warping it. Instead, we're looking at exactly what I listed in my last post: But microtransactions are P2W.

    Skyscale LW unlocks: Just LoL? I got the LW for free. I guess logging in is now P2W? This is using your own example here, and you list having it as P2W, so if all one did was log in, it's P2W? This is exactly what I'm talking about with taking what's P2W to the absurd. Congratulations for proving my point?

    Ah, I see. You've cleverly left out:

    • exp boosters (any boosters) , which aren't P2W in your warped opinion about P2W, but definitely are P2W going by the original definition
    • the Infinite Continue Coin
    • revive orbs
    • easier access to ascended gear via LW
    • Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts)

    because it directly contradicts your point. All of them give a paying player an advantage, even if that advantage is small.

    • the skyscale (requires LW unlocks)
    • the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock)

    Are also not free. This is a common misconception some players make. You see, you only get the Living World episodes for free while they're recent. Any new player will still have to pay to get the same advantage. Even if you did get them for logging in, other players that didn't get them are still at a disadvantage.
    Oh, and let me repeat what you originally stated, again: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."

    LW with the mounts, as well as the rest, sure sound like a buyable advantages to me. Also, this is not taking what's P2W to the absurd, I'm simply using the definition you originally gave (even if you yourself are using a warped, different one).

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Currency_exchange
    Gems store items are not exclusive to people with money. You can farm the gold and buy the gems and items you want.
    These items are perhaps exclusive for the gemsstore, but not exclusive for those with a big wallet in real life.

    That's great, but misses the point I'm arguing completely. This is about if someone gains any advantage at all by paying with real money, which they do. So by @robertthebard.8150 initial definition, they'd essentially be paying to win.

    Your argument would also mean that any item in the gem shop is fine, as anyone is able to buy it. So any boost that enhances damage by 7777% would be fine.

    Technically, that's exactly what it means. Anything available in the gem store is not pay-to-win by the traditional definition.

    Originally pay-to-win meant:

    • paying to secure not in-game available benefits which secured the paying party is more powerful than via normal game play achieve-able
    • this extended to sever grind or near unattainable in-game upgrades, for example in case of upgrades which would be theoretically attainable but so expensive that this is not reflected in the game

    The industry since has changed tremendously. For example, the items offered and incentivization has changed a lot (both for items which are beneficial as well as not beneficial, which blurs the lines and perception). Most often to more extreme measures. Any player who considers things in GW2 pay2win has lost touch with where the rest of the industry is at (especially in regards to expansions being considered pay2win, which was never the issue in the past and for most games still is not. Expansions used to be mandatory to be allowed to continue have access to a games endgame. The fact GW2 is different is being used against it here).

  • Cynz.9437Cynz.9437 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes

    You ask this question in wrong section of the forums. Most people who read this section are PvE'ers - they don't "win" much really beside getting new content. Problem of p2w is in wvw and pvp - especs are straight upgrade to core in most cases which leads to even more imbalance since usually especs offer even more what class didn't have before which leads to never ending power creep.
    Then there is thing like food and buffs/gear that cannot be made or are hard to get without xpac.

    Meh~

  • mercury ranique.2170mercury ranique.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

    There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

    Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

    If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

    No, it's not my personal definition. It's the definition that's applied for 15 years, or more. That I only listed a couple of examples doesn't mean it's just "well, it doesn't count because it's only PvP"... The problem is, the definition "everyone else uses" includes purely cosmetic items, which I've seen on these very forums. "Ooo, he got a mount skin I don't have, P2W"... It seems to me like the last thread along these lines wasn't all that long ago, where the whole CS was predatory, etc. etc.

    Of course, the other problem with you're denial of the definition is that, initially, P2W meant literally that, paying to win. I used the PvP example because it's very clearly "winning". The example from Vindictus, of being able to reset what's supposed to be dailies is another example, they also had actual gear with bonuses in their CS, Tera does as well. swtor requires either a sub, or for you to purchase an unlock to equip artifact grade equipment. It also has a lockout for activities that require unlocks, or a sub, to bypass. So instead of me going on and on with examples of actual P2W scenarios, how about this: Lay out what you feel is P2W here.

    Except it is your personal definition that GW2 isn't P2W while using the definition you gave. And this is a wrong statement to make if we're applying your definition.

    Let us use the definition you gave: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."
    If we are strict in the usage of the definition you gave, many things will give an advantage, no matter how small that advantage may be and no matter the gamemode.

    This includes things like exp boosters (any boosters), the skyscale (requires LW unlocks), the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock), the Infinite Continue Coin, revive orbs, easier access to ascended gear via LW, Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts). All of those items give an advantage to a player compared to a player that doesn't have them.

    So strictly using the definition you gave, GW2 would count as a game with P2W items in the shop, unless you're denying that any of those items give an advantage that is non-cosmetic.

    By saying "No", you are actually going against the original meaning you gave, ignoring items that are not cosmetic items. So you're already using a warped P2W definition.

    (For the record, I don't think GW2 is P2W, but going by the "15 years definition", it would be, as there are items that give advantages in the shop. That's what my original post was about, that people don't use the original meaning anymore, but a warped version of it which allows soft-advantages like exp-boosts etc.)

    Because this is the definition. It is exactly the situation that the term was coined to define. What has become the norm is "microtransactions == P2W", no matter what those transactions are. This includes cosmetics, that add absolutely nothing but appearance changes, mount skins, or even mounts, even when the mount doesn't do anything differently from one readily obtainable in game, except for how it looks. It's even carried over to SP games in the same fashion, where it makes absolutely 0 difference what a player buys, or doesn't buy. So yes, I'd prefer we stick to what P2W actually means, instead of this cobbled together excuse to run at microtransactions. It's not like I'm a big proponent of microtransactions either, I haven't spent fifty bucks on them in the last year, let alone the last few weeks, unlike some players that will. I'm not a fan of loot crates either, to the point where I don't even buy them with a game's stipend of cash shop currency that comes with a sub. However, just the existence of a cash shop does not equate P2W, and you can bet that that's where this thread was wanting to go.

    So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

    You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

    Such as? How does my bank space give me an advantage over you? Are you incapable of selling off items because your inventory space is lower? Will your reaching level cap adversely affect my game play? What's being warped is "advantage", and I'm not the one warping it. Instead, we're looking at exactly what I listed in my last post: But microtransactions are P2W.

    Skyscale LW unlocks: Just LoL? I got the LW for free. I guess logging in is now P2W? This is using your own example here, and you list having it as P2W, so if all one did was log in, it's P2W? This is exactly what I'm talking about with taking what's P2W to the absurd. Congratulations for proving my point?

    Ah, I see. You've cleverly left out:

    • exp boosters (any boosters) , which aren't P2W in your warped opinion about P2W, but definitely are P2W going by the original definition
    • the Infinite Continue Coin
    • revive orbs
    • easier access to ascended gear via LW
    • Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts)

    because it directly contradicts your point. All of them give a paying player an advantage, even if that advantage is small.

    • the skyscale (requires LW unlocks)
    • the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock)

    Are also not free. This is a common misconception some players make. You see, you only get the Living World episodes for free while they're recent. Any new player will still have to pay to get the same advantage. Even if you did get them for logging in, other players that didn't get them are still at a disadvantage.
    Oh, and let me repeat what you originally stated, again: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."

    LW with the mounts, as well as the rest, sure sound like a buyable advantages to me. Also, this is not taking what's P2W to the absurd, I'm simply using the definition you originally gave (even if you yourself are using a warped, different one).

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Currency_exchange
    Gems store items are not exclusive to people with money. You can farm the gold and buy the gems and items you want.
    These items are perhaps exclusive for the gemsstore, but not exclusive for those with a big wallet in real life.

    That's great, but misses the point I'm arguing completely. This is about if someone gains any advantage at all by paying with real money, which they do. So by @robertthebard.8150 initial definition, they'd essentially be paying to win.

    Your argument would also mean that any item in the gem shop is fine, as anyone is able to buy it. So any boost that enhances damage by 7777% would be fine.

    It does not misses the point you are trying to make, but it actually counters it fully.
    The definition you are using is excluding a very important element, meaning it is exclusive to those paying with real money. This is not the case. There can be some debate when the amount of effort put into it in other ways is so big it is not realistic to gain the same result. This could only count for the revive orbs, but the benefit of revive orbs over waypointing is so minor this would not count either.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

    There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

    Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

    If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

    No, it's not my personal definition. It's the definition that's applied for 15 years, or more. That I only listed a couple of examples doesn't mean it's just "well, it doesn't count because it's only PvP"... The problem is, the definition "everyone else uses" includes purely cosmetic items, which I've seen on these very forums. "Ooo, he got a mount skin I don't have, P2W"... It seems to me like the last thread along these lines wasn't all that long ago, where the whole CS was predatory, etc. etc.

    Of course, the other problem with you're denial of the definition is that, initially, P2W meant literally that, paying to win. I used the PvP example because it's very clearly "winning". The example from Vindictus, of being able to reset what's supposed to be dailies is another example, they also had actual gear with bonuses in their CS, Tera does as well. swtor requires either a sub, or for you to purchase an unlock to equip artifact grade equipment. It also has a lockout for activities that require unlocks, or a sub, to bypass. So instead of me going on and on with examples of actual P2W scenarios, how about this: Lay out what you feel is P2W here.

    Except it is your personal definition that GW2 isn't P2W while using the definition you gave. And this is a wrong statement to make if we're applying your definition.

    Let us use the definition you gave: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."
    If we are strict in the usage of the definition you gave, many things will give an advantage, no matter how small that advantage may be and no matter the gamemode.

    This includes things like exp boosters (any boosters), the skyscale (requires LW unlocks), the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock), the Infinite Continue Coin, revive orbs, easier access to ascended gear via LW, Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts). All of those items give an advantage to a player compared to a player that doesn't have them.

    So strictly using the definition you gave, GW2 would count as a game with P2W items in the shop, unless you're denying that any of those items give an advantage that is non-cosmetic.

    By saying "No", you are actually going against the original meaning you gave, ignoring items that are not cosmetic items. So you're already using a warped P2W definition.

    (For the record, I don't think GW2 is P2W, but going by the "15 years definition", it would be, as there are items that give advantages in the shop. That's what my original post was about, that people don't use the original meaning anymore, but a warped version of it which allows soft-advantages like exp-boosts etc.)

    Because this is the definition. It is exactly the situation that the term was coined to define. What has become the norm is "microtransactions == P2W", no matter what those transactions are. This includes cosmetics, that add absolutely nothing but appearance changes, mount skins, or even mounts, even when the mount doesn't do anything differently from one readily obtainable in game, except for how it looks. It's even carried over to SP games in the same fashion, where it makes absolutely 0 difference what a player buys, or doesn't buy. So yes, I'd prefer we stick to what P2W actually means, instead of this cobbled together excuse to run at microtransactions. It's not like I'm a big proponent of microtransactions either, I haven't spent fifty bucks on them in the last year, let alone the last few weeks, unlike some players that will. I'm not a fan of loot crates either, to the point where I don't even buy them with a game's stipend of cash shop currency that comes with a sub. However, just the existence of a cash shop does not equate P2W, and you can bet that that's where this thread was wanting to go.

    So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

    You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

    Such as? How does my bank space give me an advantage over you? Are you incapable of selling off items because your inventory space is lower? Will your reaching level cap adversely affect my game play? What's being warped is "advantage", and I'm not the one warping it. Instead, we're looking at exactly what I listed in my last post: But microtransactions are P2W.

    Skyscale LW unlocks: Just LoL? I got the LW for free. I guess logging in is now P2W? This is using your own example here, and you list having it as P2W, so if all one did was log in, it's P2W? This is exactly what I'm talking about with taking what's P2W to the absurd. Congratulations for proving my point?

    Ah, I see. You've cleverly left out:

    • exp boosters (any boosters) , which aren't P2W in your warped opinion about P2W, but definitely are P2W going by the original definition
    • the Infinite Continue Coin
    • revive orbs
    • easier access to ascended gear via LW
    • Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts)

    because it directly contradicts your point. All of them give a paying player an advantage, even if that advantage is small.

    • the skyscale (requires LW unlocks)
    • the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock)

    Are also not free. This is a common misconception some players make. You see, you only get the Living World episodes for free while they're recent. Any new player will still have to pay to get the same advantage. Even if you did get them for logging in, other players that didn't get them are still at a disadvantage.
    Oh, and let me repeat what you originally stated, again: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."

    LW with the mounts, as well as the rest, sure sound like a buyable advantages to me. Also, this is not taking what's P2W to the absurd, I'm simply using the definition you originally gave (even if you yourself are using a warped, different one).

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Currency_exchange
    Gems store items are not exclusive to people with money. You can farm the gold and buy the gems and items you want.
    These items are perhaps exclusive for the gemsstore, but not exclusive for those with a big wallet in real life.

    That's great, but misses the point I'm arguing completely. This is about if someone gains any advantage at all by paying with real money, which they do. So by @robertthebard.8150 initial definition, they'd essentially be paying to win.

    Your argument would also mean that any item in the gem shop is fine, as anyone is able to buy it. So any boost that enhances damage by 7777% would be fine.

    Technically, that's exactly what it means. Anything available in the gem store is not pay-to-win by the traditional definition.

    Originally pay-to-win meant:

    • paying to secure not in-game available benefits which secured the paying party is more powerful than via normal game play achieve-able
    • this extended to sever grind or near unattainable in-game upgrades, for example in case of upgrades which would be theoretically attainable but so expensive that this is not reflected in the game

    Not sure if that is actually the "traditional" definition, but that's beside the point, as I'm arguing about @robertthebard.8150 "actual definition".
    This one: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."
    Going by that definition many things could be considered P2W.

    The industry since has changed tremendously. For example, the items offered and incentivization has changed a lot (both for items which are beneficial as well as not beneficial, which blurs the lines and perception). Most often to more extreme measures. Any player who considers things in GW2 pay2win has lost touch with where the rest of the industry is at (especially in regards to expansions being considered pay2win, which was never the issue in the past and for most games still is not. Expansions used to be mandatory to be allowed to continue have access to a games endgame. The fact GW2 is different is being used against it here).

    Exactly, that's why I stated that the term P2W has warped from it's initial definition over time. @robertthebard.8150 is trying to argue that it's definition didn't change over time and that it's "actual definition" still holds up.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021
    No

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

    There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

    Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

    If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

    No, it's not my personal definition. It's the definition that's applied for 15 years, or more. That I only listed a couple of examples doesn't mean it's just "well, it doesn't count because it's only PvP"... The problem is, the definition "everyone else uses" includes purely cosmetic items, which I've seen on these very forums. "Ooo, he got a mount skin I don't have, P2W"... It seems to me like the last thread along these lines wasn't all that long ago, where the whole CS was predatory, etc. etc.

    Of course, the other problem with you're denial of the definition is that, initially, P2W meant literally that, paying to win. I used the PvP example because it's very clearly "winning". The example from Vindictus, of being able to reset what's supposed to be dailies is another example, they also had actual gear with bonuses in their CS, Tera does as well. swtor requires either a sub, or for you to purchase an unlock to equip artifact grade equipment. It also has a lockout for activities that require unlocks, or a sub, to bypass. So instead of me going on and on with examples of actual P2W scenarios, how about this: Lay out what you feel is P2W here.

    Except it is your personal definition that GW2 isn't P2W while using the definition you gave. And this is a wrong statement to make if we're applying your definition.

    Let us use the definition you gave: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."
    If we are strict in the usage of the definition you gave, many things will give an advantage, no matter how small that advantage may be and no matter the gamemode.

    This includes things like exp boosters (any boosters), the skyscale (requires LW unlocks), the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock), the Infinite Continue Coin, revive orbs, easier access to ascended gear via LW, Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts). All of those items give an advantage to a player compared to a player that doesn't have them.

    So strictly using the definition you gave, GW2 would count as a game with P2W items in the shop, unless you're denying that any of those items give an advantage that is non-cosmetic.

    By saying "No", you are actually going against the original meaning you gave, ignoring items that are not cosmetic items. So you're already using a warped P2W definition.

    (For the record, I don't think GW2 is P2W, but going by the "15 years definition", it would be, as there are items that give advantages in the shop. That's what my original post was about, that people don't use the original meaning anymore, but a warped version of it which allows soft-advantages like exp-boosts etc.)

    Because this is the definition. It is exactly the situation that the term was coined to define. What has become the norm is "microtransactions == P2W", no matter what those transactions are. This includes cosmetics, that add absolutely nothing but appearance changes, mount skins, or even mounts, even when the mount doesn't do anything differently from one readily obtainable in game, except for how it looks. It's even carried over to SP games in the same fashion, where it makes absolutely 0 difference what a player buys, or doesn't buy. So yes, I'd prefer we stick to what P2W actually means, instead of this cobbled together excuse to run at microtransactions. It's not like I'm a big proponent of microtransactions either, I haven't spent fifty bucks on them in the last year, let alone the last few weeks, unlike some players that will. I'm not a fan of loot crates either, to the point where I don't even buy them with a game's stipend of cash shop currency that comes with a sub. However, just the existence of a cash shop does not equate P2W, and you can bet that that's where this thread was wanting to go.

    So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

    You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

    Such as? How does my bank space give me an advantage over you? Are you incapable of selling off items because your inventory space is lower? Will your reaching level cap adversely affect my game play? What's being warped is "advantage", and I'm not the one warping it. Instead, we're looking at exactly what I listed in my last post: But microtransactions are P2W.

    Skyscale LW unlocks: Just LoL? I got the LW for free. I guess logging in is now P2W? This is using your own example here, and you list having it as P2W, so if all one did was log in, it's P2W? This is exactly what I'm talking about with taking what's P2W to the absurd. Congratulations for proving my point?

    Ah, I see. You've cleverly left out:

    • exp boosters (any boosters) , which aren't P2W in your warped opinion about P2W, but definitely are P2W going by the original definition
    • the Infinite Continue Coin
    • revive orbs
    • easier access to ascended gear via LW
    • Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts)

    because it directly contradicts your point. All of them give a paying player an advantage, even if that advantage is small.

    • the skyscale (requires LW unlocks)
    • the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock)

    Are also not free. This is a common misconception some players make. You see, you only get the Living World episodes for free while they're recent. Any new player will still have to pay to get the same advantage. Even if you did get them for logging in, other players that didn't get them are still at a disadvantage.
    Oh, and let me repeat what you originally stated, again: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."

    LW with the mounts, as well as the rest, sure sound like a buyable advantages to me. Also, this is not taking what's P2W to the absurd, I'm simply using the definition you originally gave (even if you yourself are using a warped, different one).

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Currency_exchange
    Gems store items are not exclusive to people with money. You can farm the gold and buy the gems and items you want.
    These items are perhaps exclusive for the gemsstore, but not exclusive for those with a big wallet in real life.

    That's great, but misses the point I'm arguing completely. This is about if someone gains any advantage at all by paying with real money, which they do. So by @robertthebard.8150 initial definition, they'd essentially be paying to win.

    Your argument would also mean that any item in the gem shop is fine, as anyone is able to buy it. So any boost that enhances damage by 7777% would be fine.

    It does not misses the point you are trying to make, but it actually counters it fully.
    The definition you are using is excluding a very important element, meaning it is exclusive to those paying with real money. This is not the case. There can be some debate when the amount of effort put into it in other ways is so big it is not realistic to gain the same result. This could only count for the revive orbs, but the benefit of revive orbs over waypointing is so minor this would not count either.

    By your own words, it actually counters nothing.
    Those who do pay with real money don't use the ingame gold. This is already an advantage. If you're gaining the same result with less effort it is still an advantage. The benefit of revive orbs may be minor, but it is still a benefit. So going by @robertthebard.8150 definition, it would still be P2W, since those things still offer an advantage, no matter how minor that advantage may be.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • mercury ranique.2170mercury ranique.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

    There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

    Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

    If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

    No, it's not my personal definition. It's the definition that's applied for 15 years, or more. That I only listed a couple of examples doesn't mean it's just "well, it doesn't count because it's only PvP"... The problem is, the definition "everyone else uses" includes purely cosmetic items, which I've seen on these very forums. "Ooo, he got a mount skin I don't have, P2W"... It seems to me like the last thread along these lines wasn't all that long ago, where the whole CS was predatory, etc. etc.

    Of course, the other problem with you're denial of the definition is that, initially, P2W meant literally that, paying to win. I used the PvP example because it's very clearly "winning". The example from Vindictus, of being able to reset what's supposed to be dailies is another example, they also had actual gear with bonuses in their CS, Tera does as well. swtor requires either a sub, or for you to purchase an unlock to equip artifact grade equipment. It also has a lockout for activities that require unlocks, or a sub, to bypass. So instead of me going on and on with examples of actual P2W scenarios, how about this: Lay out what you feel is P2W here.

    Except it is your personal definition that GW2 isn't P2W while using the definition you gave. And this is a wrong statement to make if we're applying your definition.

    Let us use the definition you gave: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."
    If we are strict in the usage of the definition you gave, many things will give an advantage, no matter how small that advantage may be and no matter the gamemode.

    This includes things like exp boosters (any boosters), the skyscale (requires LW unlocks), the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock), the Infinite Continue Coin, revive orbs, easier access to ascended gear via LW, Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts). All of those items give an advantage to a player compared to a player that doesn't have them.

    So strictly using the definition you gave, GW2 would count as a game with P2W items in the shop, unless you're denying that any of those items give an advantage that is non-cosmetic.

    By saying "No", you are actually going against the original meaning you gave, ignoring items that are not cosmetic items. So you're already using a warped P2W definition.

    (For the record, I don't think GW2 is P2W, but going by the "15 years definition", it would be, as there are items that give advantages in the shop. That's what my original post was about, that people don't use the original meaning anymore, but a warped version of it which allows soft-advantages like exp-boosts etc.)

    Because this is the definition. It is exactly the situation that the term was coined to define. What has become the norm is "microtransactions == P2W", no matter what those transactions are. This includes cosmetics, that add absolutely nothing but appearance changes, mount skins, or even mounts, even when the mount doesn't do anything differently from one readily obtainable in game, except for how it looks. It's even carried over to SP games in the same fashion, where it makes absolutely 0 difference what a player buys, or doesn't buy. So yes, I'd prefer we stick to what P2W actually means, instead of this cobbled together excuse to run at microtransactions. It's not like I'm a big proponent of microtransactions either, I haven't spent fifty bucks on them in the last year, let alone the last few weeks, unlike some players that will. I'm not a fan of loot crates either, to the point where I don't even buy them with a game's stipend of cash shop currency that comes with a sub. However, just the existence of a cash shop does not equate P2W, and you can bet that that's where this thread was wanting to go.

    So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

    You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

    Such as? How does my bank space give me an advantage over you? Are you incapable of selling off items because your inventory space is lower? Will your reaching level cap adversely affect my game play? What's being warped is "advantage", and I'm not the one warping it. Instead, we're looking at exactly what I listed in my last post: But microtransactions are P2W.

    Skyscale LW unlocks: Just LoL? I got the LW for free. I guess logging in is now P2W? This is using your own example here, and you list having it as P2W, so if all one did was log in, it's P2W? This is exactly what I'm talking about with taking what's P2W to the absurd. Congratulations for proving my point?

    Ah, I see. You've cleverly left out:

    • exp boosters (any boosters) , which aren't P2W in your warped opinion about P2W, but definitely are P2W going by the original definition
    • the Infinite Continue Coin
    • revive orbs
    • easier access to ascended gear via LW
    • Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts)

    because it directly contradicts your point. All of them give a paying player an advantage, even if that advantage is small.

    • the skyscale (requires LW unlocks)
    • the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock)

    Are also not free. This is a common misconception some players make. You see, you only get the Living World episodes for free while they're recent. Any new player will still have to pay to get the same advantage. Even if you did get them for logging in, other players that didn't get them are still at a disadvantage.
    Oh, and let me repeat what you originally stated, again: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."

    LW with the mounts, as well as the rest, sure sound like a buyable advantages to me. Also, this is not taking what's P2W to the absurd, I'm simply using the definition you originally gave (even if you yourself are using a warped, different one).

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Currency_exchange
    Gems store items are not exclusive to people with money. You can farm the gold and buy the gems and items you want.
    These items are perhaps exclusive for the gemsstore, but not exclusive for those with a big wallet in real life.

    That's great, but misses the point I'm arguing completely. This is about if someone gains any advantage at all by paying with real money, which they do. So by @robertthebard.8150 initial definition, they'd essentially be paying to win.

    Your argument would also mean that any item in the gem shop is fine, as anyone is able to buy it. So any boost that enhances damage by 7777% would be fine.

    It does not misses the point you are trying to make, but it actually counters it fully.
    The definition you are using is excluding a very important element, meaning it is exclusive to those paying with real money. This is not the case. There can be some debate when the amount of effort put into it in other ways is so big it is not realistic to gain the same result. This could only count for the revive orbs, but the benefit of revive orbs over waypointing is so minor this would not count either.

    By your own words, it actually counters nothing.
    Those who do pay with real money don't use the ingame gold. This is already an advantage. If you're gaining the same result with less effort it is still an advantage. The benefit of revive orbs may be minor, but it is still a benefit. So going by @robertthebard.8150 definition, it would still be P2W, since those things still offer an advantage, no matter how minor that advantage may be.

    You keep talking about someone's definition, but when the definition is wrong, that is something that should not be ignored. GW2 is not pay to win by far. You make it sound as if. This is the same as saying that games with monthly fees are pay to win, just cause when you do not pay with real money, you do not get to be able to play.

    Pay to win means what it means. You have to pay real life money in order to win the game you are playing. This is not the case. Just that you can buy things that give you an advantage doesnt make it pay to win unless the advantage is exclusive and big enough to make it unfair to those not paying.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021
    No

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

    There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

    Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

    If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

    No, it's not my personal definition. It's the definition that's applied for 15 years, or more. That I only listed a couple of examples doesn't mean it's just "well, it doesn't count because it's only PvP"... The problem is, the definition "everyone else uses" includes purely cosmetic items, which I've seen on these very forums. "Ooo, he got a mount skin I don't have, P2W"... It seems to me like the last thread along these lines wasn't all that long ago, where the whole CS was predatory, etc. etc.

    Of course, the other problem with you're denial of the definition is that, initially, P2W meant literally that, paying to win. I used the PvP example because it's very clearly "winning". The example from Vindictus, of being able to reset what's supposed to be dailies is another example, they also had actual gear with bonuses in their CS, Tera does as well. swtor requires either a sub, or for you to purchase an unlock to equip artifact grade equipment. It also has a lockout for activities that require unlocks, or a sub, to bypass. So instead of me going on and on with examples of actual P2W scenarios, how about this: Lay out what you feel is P2W here.

    Except it is your personal definition that GW2 isn't P2W while using the definition you gave. And this is a wrong statement to make if we're applying your definition.

    Let us use the definition you gave: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."
    If we are strict in the usage of the definition you gave, many things will give an advantage, no matter how small that advantage may be and no matter the gamemode.

    This includes things like exp boosters (any boosters), the skyscale (requires LW unlocks), the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock), the Infinite Continue Coin, revive orbs, easier access to ascended gear via LW, Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts). All of those items give an advantage to a player compared to a player that doesn't have them.

    So strictly using the definition you gave, GW2 would count as a game with P2W items in the shop, unless you're denying that any of those items give an advantage that is non-cosmetic.

    By saying "No", you are actually going against the original meaning you gave, ignoring items that are not cosmetic items. So you're already using a warped P2W definition.

    (For the record, I don't think GW2 is P2W, but going by the "15 years definition", it would be, as there are items that give advantages in the shop. That's what my original post was about, that people don't use the original meaning anymore, but a warped version of it which allows soft-advantages like exp-boosts etc.)

    Because this is the definition. It is exactly the situation that the term was coined to define. What has become the norm is "microtransactions == P2W", no matter what those transactions are. This includes cosmetics, that add absolutely nothing but appearance changes, mount skins, or even mounts, even when the mount doesn't do anything differently from one readily obtainable in game, except for how it looks. It's even carried over to SP games in the same fashion, where it makes absolutely 0 difference what a player buys, or doesn't buy. So yes, I'd prefer we stick to what P2W actually means, instead of this cobbled together excuse to run at microtransactions. It's not like I'm a big proponent of microtransactions either, I haven't spent fifty bucks on them in the last year, let alone the last few weeks, unlike some players that will. I'm not a fan of loot crates either, to the point where I don't even buy them with a game's stipend of cash shop currency that comes with a sub. However, just the existence of a cash shop does not equate P2W, and you can bet that that's where this thread was wanting to go.

    So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

    You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

    Such as? How does my bank space give me an advantage over you? Are you incapable of selling off items because your inventory space is lower? Will your reaching level cap adversely affect my game play? What's being warped is "advantage", and I'm not the one warping it. Instead, we're looking at exactly what I listed in my last post: But microtransactions are P2W.

    Skyscale LW unlocks: Just LoL? I got the LW for free. I guess logging in is now P2W? This is using your own example here, and you list having it as P2W, so if all one did was log in, it's P2W? This is exactly what I'm talking about with taking what's P2W to the absurd. Congratulations for proving my point?

    Ah, I see. You've cleverly left out:

    • exp boosters (any boosters) , which aren't P2W in your warped opinion about P2W, but definitely are P2W going by the original definition
    • the Infinite Continue Coin
    • revive orbs
    • easier access to ascended gear via LW
    • Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts)

    because it directly contradicts your point. All of them give a paying player an advantage, even if that advantage is small.

    • the skyscale (requires LW unlocks)
    • the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock)

    Are also not free. This is a common misconception some players make. You see, you only get the Living World episodes for free while they're recent. Any new player will still have to pay to get the same advantage. Even if you did get them for logging in, other players that didn't get them are still at a disadvantage.
    Oh, and let me repeat what you originally stated, again: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."

    LW with the mounts, as well as the rest, sure sound like a buyable advantages to me. Also, this is not taking what's P2W to the absurd, I'm simply using the definition you originally gave (even if you yourself are using a warped, different one).

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Currency_exchange
    Gems store items are not exclusive to people with money. You can farm the gold and buy the gems and items you want.
    These items are perhaps exclusive for the gemsstore, but not exclusive for those with a big wallet in real life.

    That's great, but misses the point I'm arguing completely. This is about if someone gains any advantage at all by paying with real money, which they do. So by @robertthebard.8150 initial definition, they'd essentially be paying to win.

    Your argument would also mean that any item in the gem shop is fine, as anyone is able to buy it. So any boost that enhances damage by 7777% would be fine.

    It does not misses the point you are trying to make, but it actually counters it fully.
    The definition you are using is excluding a very important element, meaning it is exclusive to those paying with real money. This is not the case. There can be some debate when the amount of effort put into it in other ways is so big it is not realistic to gain the same result. This could only count for the revive orbs, but the benefit of revive orbs over waypointing is so minor this would not count either.

    By your own words, it actually counters nothing.
    Those who do pay with real money don't use the ingame gold. This is already an advantage. If you're gaining the same result with less effort it is still an advantage. The benefit of revive orbs may be minor, but it is still a benefit. So going by @robertthebard.8150 definition, it would still be P2W, since those things still offer an advantage, no matter how minor that advantage may be.

    You keep talking about someone's definition, but when the definition is wrong, that is something that should not be ignored. GW2 is not pay to win by far. You make it sound as if. This is the same as saying that games with monthly fees are pay to win, just cause when you do not pay with real money, you do not get to be able to play.

    Pay to win means what it means. You have to pay real life money in order to win the game you are playing. This is not the case. Just that you can buy things that give you an advantage doesnt make it pay to win unless the advantage is exclusive and big enough to make it unfair to those not paying.

    And here's the problem. There isn't actually a current definition of P2W everyone supports. That's why I said the definition of P2W has warped.
    As you can see @robertthebard.8150 has his own definition.
    @Cyninja.2954 has his own definition.
    You have your own definition.
    There's another definition on Wikipedia.
    And another one on Urban Dictionary.
    And many more, depending who you ask.
    And they all don't match.

    What you probably have missed is that I myself also don't consider GW2 P2W by my definition. I'm purely arguing with @robertthebard.8150 initial "actual" definition and what that would mean for the current shop, as he brought up this "actual" definition that apparently is the alpha and omega in his case.

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    I'm referring to the 7777% dmg increase item you cited in your post. You know, you're evidence for P2W?

    Guess it wasn't obvious enough that that was an example for an item that wouldn't be P2W based on @mercury ranique.2170 and @Cyninja.2954 definition of P2W, as anyone would be able to buy that from the cash shop with gold.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021
    No

    @Cynz.9437 said:
    You ask this question in wrong section of the forums. Most people who read this section are PvE'ers - they don't "win" much really beside getting new content. Problem of p2w is in wvw and pvp - especs are straight upgrade to core in most cases which leads to even more imbalance since usually especs offer even more what class didn't have before which leads to never ending power creep.
    Then there is thing like food and buffs/gear that cannot be made or are hard to get without xpac.

    Agreed.

    We should have a similar system as other MMORPGs have: denied access to accounts which do not own the latest expansion. That would immediately solve the issue of pay2win.

    Think about it: if you can't access the content, no one else can win against you. That's how other MMORPGs handle this and maybe it is time GW2 followed suite (technically most MMORPGs also increase the level cap, add an entire new leveling section and make you run a lot of hoops before even being able to access endgame again, but we don't have to go full 100% in GW2. Forcing players to buy the latest expansion will suffice).

    Funny how a developer being LESS generous and more restrictive could suddenly change which terms apply to its game isn't it?

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    I'm referring to the 7777% dmg increase item you cited in your post. You know, you're evidence for P2W?

    Guess it wasn't obvious enough that that was an example for an item that wouldn't be P2W based on @mercury ranique.2170 and @Cyninja.2954 definition of P2W, as anyone would be able to buy that from the cash shop with gold.

    What it was was trying to argue with hyperbole, because you're short on actual facts. You run around this topic, claiming I have ignored your points, all while totally avoiding answering any of the questions I have asked. Don't fret, though, I understand why. If you answered them, you'd find your argument is falling flat.

    1. How does how fast you level affect me?
    2. How does what mount skins you're using affect me?
    3. How does you having an expansion I don't have affect me?
    4. How does my getting a LW for free, by logging in at the appropriate time, affect you? Why does it affect you?
  • No

    This game is most definitely not pay to win, by any stretch of the imagination. It's pointless to argue with people who think it is, because they're wrong, full stop, end of discussion. There's literally nothing that backs up their "arguments". "But E-specs provide an advantage!" E-Specs are part of an entire expansion. If we're going to argue that expansion content is P2W, then every gave, ever made, that has had expansions is P2W.

    Some people will nitpick until the heat death of the Universe. They're not worth the time or effort to argue with. They're wrong; you know it, I know it, ignore them and move on. :)

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021
    No

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    I'm referring to the 7777% dmg increase item you cited in your post. You know, you're evidence for P2W?

    Guess it wasn't obvious enough that that was an example for an item that wouldn't be P2W based on @mercury ranique.2170 and @Cyninja.2954 definition of P2W, as anyone would be able to buy that from the cash shop with gold.

    What it was was trying to argue with hyperbole, because you're short on actual facts. You run around this topic, claiming I have ignored your points, all while totally avoiding answering any of the questions I have asked. Don't fret, though, I understand why. If you answered them, you'd find your argument is falling flat.

    Except I have already answered those questions. For some reason you're mentioning questions on things that I've never mentioned, though. Also, the only fact I'm using is your own "actual" definition, so I'm rather baffled how I should be short on facts? It's your own definition. So if anything is falling flat, it is the definition you initialy mentioned about there being an "actual" definition of P2W. But sure, move the goalpost a little more, I'm interested.

    1. How does how fast you level affect me?

    Someone that lvls with an exp boost technically has an advantage over someone that doesn't lvl with an exp boost. This would be considered P2W by your "actual" definition.

    1. How does what mount skins you're using affect me?

    I've never mentioned mount skins, so why do you ask?

    1. How does you having an expansion I don't have affect me?

    I've never mentioned expansions, so why do you ask?

    1. How does my getting a LW for free, by logging in at the appropriate time, affect you? Why does it affect you?

    This has nothing to do with getting it for free or not. Would giving a streamer a completely maxxed character for free in any P2W game make the game any less P2W?
    Someone that has the LW will have an adventage over someone that doesn't have access to the LW. The paying player does have access to things like the Skyscale and the rollerbeetle, which both are better than any of the other mounts in their own niche. LW also offers easier access to ascended gear. So it is considered P2W by your "actual" definition.

    But I also have a question for you:
    Would you consider that fictional 7777% damage enhancement item P2W if it was only usable in PvE? After all, it wouldn't affect you.

    Edit: Anyways, heading out for a bit, don't expect another answer too soon.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021

    A whole bunch of people who chose "No" arguing back and forth for no reason lol

    Technically and semantically, yes, GW2 is P2W. This mental gymnastics to try and not lump it in a group it is in is mainly due to not wanting to link the negative connotations of such a system with GW2. Rather than stewing in cognitive dissonance, why not just accept that P2W isn't automatically negative. It's a byproduct of games that are F2P needing to monetize their game to continue to make content for the game. Simple as that.

    The whole point of the video I linked is to point to how P2W COULD ruin a game and then things you should avoid so it doesn't, but don't get it twisted, the elements still exists in GW2. Overall, it's a tolerable level of P2W that can only get you so far but it will definitely get you that distance very quickly.

  • SexyMofo.8923SexyMofo.8923 Member ✭✭✭
    Maybe

    No. It’s actually pay to lose money.

  • Farohna.6247Farohna.6247 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    @Parasite.5389 said:
    "You keep using that word... I do not think it means what you think it means"

    I laughed at this, summarized what I was thinking with a nice reference. Pay for some optional QoL items? Yes. For those out there who think expansions count as p2w....what????? Most games offer new and improved things with expansions, it's a drawing card and why people buy them. If it makes you feel left out that you don't have them/can't afford them/etc, but it's not there to make you feel sad. You can not purchase weapons/armor/skills for base game that give you an advantage over your fellow player...it's cosmetic. World boss device hardly counts as paying to win.

  • Paradoxoglanis.1904Paradoxoglanis.1904 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    Gw2 is pay to play. If you consider it pay to win, then games like diablo 2, skyrim, and WoW are also pay to win. If you dont buy gw2 xpacs, you arent playing a complete version of the game. If you dont buy D2 or wow xpacs, you arent playing a complete version of the game. Pay to win generally means micro-transactions giving players more power, so the people who pay the most money become the most powerful. When everyone pays a flat amount to access the same content, its not pay to win.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Cynz.9437 said:
    You ask this question in wrong section of the forums. Most people who read this section are PvE'ers - they don't "win" much really beside getting new content. Problem of p2w is in wvw and pvp - especs are straight upgrade to core in most cases which leads to even more imbalance since usually especs offer even more what class didn't have before which leads to never ending power creep.
    Then there is thing like food and buffs/gear that cannot be made or are hard to get without xpac.

    Core engineer dumps grenade barrage and instakills holosmith

    Holosmith: "P2W REEEEEEEEEE!!!"

    Wait.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    I'm referring to the 7777% dmg increase item you cited in your post. You know, you're evidence for P2W?

    Guess it wasn't obvious enough that that was an example for an item that wouldn't be P2W based on @mercury ranique.2170 and @Cyninja.2954 definition of P2W, as anyone would be able to buy that from the cash shop with gold.

    What it was was trying to argue with hyperbole, because you're short on actual facts. You run around this topic, claiming I have ignored your points, all while totally avoiding answering any of the questions I have asked. Don't fret, though, I understand why. If you answered them, you'd find your argument is falling flat.

    Except I have already answered those questions. For some reason you're mentioning questions on things that I've never mentioned, though. Also, the only fact I'm using is your own "actual" definition, so I'm rather baffled how I should be short on facts? It's your own definition. So if anything is falling flat, it is the definition you initialy mentioned about there being an "actual" definition of P2W. But sure, move the goalpost a little more, I'm interested.

    1. How does how fast you level affect me?

    Someone that lvls with an exp boost technically has an advantage over someone that doesn't lvl with an exp boost. This would be considered P2W by your "actual" definition.

    1. How does what mount skins you're using affect me?

    I've never mentioned mount skins, so why do you ask?

    1. How does you having an expansion I don't have affect me?

    I've never mentioned expansions, so why do you ask?

    1. How does my getting a LW for free, by logging in at the appropriate time, affect you? Why does it affect you?

    This has nothing to do with getting it for free or not. Would giving a streamer a completely maxxed character for free in any P2W game make the game any less P2W?
    Someone that has the LW will have an adventage over someone that doesn't have access to the LW. The paying player does have access to things like the Skyscale and the rollerbeetle, which both are better than any of the other mounts in their own niche. LW also offers easier access to ascended gear. So it is considered P2W by your "actual" definition.

    But I also have a question for you:
    Would you consider that fictional 7777% damage enhancement item P2W if it was only usable in PvE? After all, it wouldn't affect you.

    Edit: Anyways, heading out for a bit, don't expect another answer too soon.

    1. How?
    2. Because they are listed as P2W in these very forums.
    3. You mentioned LS, and having to buy your way in, despite them being free if you log in.
    4. How? Access to stuff that another player doesn't have access to? What about things like Legendary gear? Players have access to it while others don't, and it can be obtained for free too, or strictly through gameplay. This falls especially flat when, as you dismiss in three, you can get the LS for free by simply logging in during the window of it's release. Note: Nobody that's logged in during that window has to pay for it. Nobody.

    So let's not argue in the absurd, yes? I gave perfectly fine examples of what I meant, even if I didn't spell it out enough, my mistake, I wasn't aware that I was going to have to. Expectations for the conversation have been adjusted accordingly. So while you fish for that "GOTCHA" moment, I'm just going to sit back and enjoy how much you are proving me right.

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Leo G.4501 said:
    A whole bunch of people who chose "No" arguing back and forth for no reason lol

    Technically and semantically, yes, GW2 is P2W. This mental gymnastics to try and not lump it in a group it is in is mainly due to not wanting to link the negative connotations of such a system with GW2. Rather than stewing in cognitive dissonance, why not just accept that P2W isn't automatically negative. It's a byproduct of games that are F2P needing to monetize their game to continue to make content for the game. Simple as that.

    The whole point of the video I linked is to point to how P2W COULD ruin a game and then things you should avoid so it doesn't, but don't get it twisted, the elements still exists in GW2. Overall, it's a tolerable level of P2W that can only get you so far but it will definitely get you that distance very quickly.

    So "But it has microtransactions, so it's P2W"? Yeah, that's what I'm dead set against even the idea of. Or is it "but xp boosts"? "but if they have more bag space, they're winning"? "Their character is prettier than mine"? kitten, you know, I bought some character slots too, how come I didn't automatically get Legendary gear? Maybe I should submit a ticket? Or maybe, it's because unlike other games, the gear, or the means to upgrade it aren't readily available in the CS? Maybe it's because, unlike other games, I can't go to the CS and buy some timed underwear that add to my stats for the duration, thus giving me a very real advantage over someone that didn't, as opposed to the "but I want more bag space, and they got it, so P2W"?

  • Luthan.5236Luthan.5236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    No. It isn't and it never had been. Most stuff can be played with exotics gear and the gem store upgrades are just for convenience. You do not even need to grind regular content. (As it usually is the case in games with gear treadmill.)

    The expansions ... having to buy them is not pay to win. They actually just unlock more content that otherwise you could not even have played. WvW is big and I still play my core engineer and have fun in the background. Maybe PvP you could argue like this ... but you can just stay in low tier and play with core classes as well there.

  • Mungo Zen.9364Mungo Zen.9364 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    @Leo G.4501 said:
    A whole bunch of people who chose "No" arguing back and forth for no reason lol

    Technically and semantically, yes, GW2 is P2W. This mental gymnastics to try and not lump it in a group it is in is mainly due to not wanting to link the negative connotations of such a system with GW2. Rather than stewing in cognitive dissonance, why not just accept that P2W isn't automatically negative. It's a byproduct of games that are F2P needing to monetize their game to continue to make content for the game. Simple as that.

    The whole point of the video I linked is to point to how P2W COULD ruin a game and then things you should avoid so it doesn't, but don't get it twisted, the elements still exists in GW2. Overall, it's a tolerable level of P2W that can only get you so far but it will definitely get you that distance very quickly.

    I am so lost by thoughts like this. If a new player picked up GW2 and wanted to 'pay to win' what are they doing/buying to get an immediate advantage?

    What is the metric which 'winning' is defined? Is it universal across all game modes and content releases?

    So far it feels like a bunch of posters want to push around the definition of something that really is not present in GW2. I haven't seen a solid argument that GW2 is anything close to P2W by any definition, and I think the poster(s) who said Pay2Play were correct.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021
    No

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    I'm referring to the 7777% dmg increase item you cited in your post. You know, you're evidence for P2W?

    Guess it wasn't obvious enough that that was an example for an item that wouldn't be P2W based on @mercury ranique.2170 and @Cyninja.2954 definition of P2W, as anyone would be able to buy that from the cash shop with gold.

    What it was was trying to argue with hyperbole, because you're short on actual facts. You run around this topic, claiming I have ignored your points, all while totally avoiding answering any of the questions I have asked. Don't fret, though, I understand why. If you answered them, you'd find your argument is falling flat.

    Except I have already answered those questions. For some reason you're mentioning questions on things that I've never mentioned, though. Also, the only fact I'm using is your own "actual" definition, so I'm rather baffled how I should be short on facts? It's your own definition. So if anything is falling flat, it is the definition you initialy mentioned about there being an "actual" definition of P2W. But sure, move the goalpost a little more, I'm interested.

    1. How does how fast you level affect me?

    Someone that lvls with an exp boost technically has an advantage over someone that doesn't lvl with an exp boost. This would be considered P2W by your "actual" definition.

    1. How does what mount skins you're using affect me?

    I've never mentioned mount skins, so why do you ask?

    1. How does you having an expansion I don't have affect me?

    I've never mentioned expansions, so why do you ask?

    1. How does my getting a LW for free, by logging in at the appropriate time, affect you? Why does it affect you?

    This has nothing to do with getting it for free or not. Would giving a streamer a completely maxxed character for free in any P2W game make the game any less P2W?
    Someone that has the LW will have an adventage over someone that doesn't have access to the LW. The paying player does have access to things like the Skyscale and the rollerbeetle, which both are better than any of the other mounts in their own niche. LW also offers easier access to ascended gear. So it is considered P2W by your "actual" definition.

    But I also have a question for you:
    Would you consider that fictional 7777% damage enhancement item P2W if it was only usable in PvE? After all, it wouldn't affect you.

    Edit: Anyways, heading out for a bit, don't expect another answer too soon.

    1. How?
    2. Because they are listed as P2W in these very forums.
    3. You mentioned LS, and having to buy your way in, despite them being free if you log in.
    4. How? Access to stuff that another player doesn't have access to? What about things like Legendary gear? Players have access to it while others don't, and it can be obtained for free too, or strictly through gameplay. This falls especially flat when, as you dismiss in three, you can get the LS for free by simply logging in during the window of it's release. Note: Nobody that's logged in during that window has to pay for it. Nobody.

    So let's not argue in the absurd, yes? I gave perfectly fine examples of what I meant, even if I didn't spell it out enough, my mistake, I wasn't aware that I was going to have to. Expectations for the conversation have been adjusted accordingly. So while you fish for that "GOTCHA" moment, I'm just going to sit back and enjoy how much you are proving me right.

    1. Player A has something which gives them an advantage, which Player B doesn't have. How is that not an advantage?
    2. Yeah, but I didn't mention them, so why ask me? Makes no sense.
    3. LS isn't an expansion, so why ask about expansions?
    4. So you still don't get it. You're also willfully ignoring my answer again. Thanks, was a pleasure "discussing" with you. I see I don't get any answers, yet again. I'm done arguing with someone that argues in bad faith.

    I can't stop arguing the absurd when every question you give is absurd. Your examples are not even relevant to your initial "actual" definition about P2W and actually make no sense, apart from disproving your own definition by going against it. You're asking me stuff about things i've never mentioned, for some reason (are you actually fishing for a "Gotcha" moment?). At this point, you're just acting ridiculous on purpose or are willfullingly obtuse. So yeah, final answer from me, not going to continue falling for your farce.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    you can bet that that's where this thread was wanting to go.

    actually it is just a standard low effort "troll" behavior

    low effort because it's just the basic "make some general statement about a divisive topic"

  • Mungo Zen.9364Mungo Zen.9364 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    @Leo G.4501 said:

    @Mungo Zen.9364 said:

    @Leo G.4501 said:
    A whole bunch of people who chose "No" arguing back and forth for no reason lol

    Technically and semantically, yes, GW2 is P2W. This mental gymnastics to try and not lump it in a group it is in is mainly due to not wanting to link the negative connotations of such a system with GW2. Rather than stewing in cognitive dissonance, why not just accept that P2W isn't automatically negative. It's a byproduct of games that are F2P needing to monetize their game to continue to make content for the game. Simple as that.

    The whole point of the video I linked is to point to how P2W COULD ruin a game and then things you should avoid so it doesn't, but don't get it twisted, the elements still exists in GW2. Overall, it's a tolerable level of P2W that can only get you so far but it will definitely get you that distance very quickly.

    I am so lost by thoughts like this. If a new player picked up GW2 and wanted to 'pay to win' what are they doing/buying to get an immediate advantage?

    What is the metric which 'winning' is defined? Is it universal across all game modes and content releases?

    So far it feels like a bunch of posters want to push around the definition of something that really is not present in GW2. I haven't seen a solid argument that GW2 is anything close to P2W by any definition, and I think the poster(s) who said Pay2Play were correct.

    Scroll up and gander at the video I linked. It covers a wide range of aspects that fall under bad uses of P2W. Rather than writing a whole post that you're not going to read, just skip to the portion of the video where he talks about currency conversations and time in-game vs cash.

    The "metric" you're trying to disqualify the game of using depends on a subjective qualifier of "winning" which you are simply going to change or deny on the whims of your own perspective. That's fine. You don't believe GW2 is P2W and I just believe you accept the level of P2W the game actually has and don't want the negatives of the term associated with your game. Quibbling over your definitions is a waste of my time because I already put the definition CLEARLY in a condensed format even an ADHD addled 12yr old can digest.

    The video was fine, I found it interesting that he referred to the 'winning' aspect of games and how it can be different in different games. How in WoW/OSRS buying tokens and selling them in game, for example, is the way of winning via P2W. How in D&D you can buy campaign completion, unique items, races with unique racials etc as examples of winning via P2W. The 'winning' depends on the game so, I think my question still stands, what is 'Winning' defined as in relation to P2W and GW2?

    While yes, you could argue that because there is a cash shop, and you can convert Cash->Gems->Gold that anything purchasable with currency could be construed as P2W, I still believe that what you are paying for is worthy of note, not that you can just buy things. Just for giggles tho, using the same logic as in the video, 10$ USD (about min wage I think) gets you 800 gems or about 185 gold. That does give a higher gold per hour than farming but, again, what are you buying to get an advantage?

    As well as watching the video, I read your posts, I wanted to highlight the parts I enjoyed above to point out that acting like that won't draw people to your view, in fact it will push them away. I posted here in good faith and you spit on me and others in this thread. Have some maturity and be civil in a debate or discussion.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Maybe

    Maybe the elite spec are power creeped and you can only get them though money. Odds are the next set of elite spec will be even more power creeped.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Kienda.4187Kienda.4187 Member ✭✭
    No

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Yes, it objectively is pay to win.
    Elite specializations are stronger than core professions and one needs to pay to use them.

    I would disagree with this as I have paid for the expansions but have not unlocked the specialisations yet. Therefore I have paid and not received the advantage.

    I could have gotten Firebrand long ago but haven’t bothered to grind the points. I will get there naturally.

    I have mounts, access to areas for good that others don’t etc. But I still don’t class that as pay to win as it is expansion content.

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Leo G.4501 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Leo G.4501 said:
    A whole bunch of people who chose "No" arguing back and forth for no reason lol

    Technically and semantically, yes, GW2 is P2W. This mental gymnastics to try and not lump it in a group it is in is mainly due to not wanting to link the negative connotations of such a system with GW2. Rather than stewing in cognitive dissonance, why not just accept that P2W isn't automatically negative. It's a byproduct of games that are F2P needing to monetize their game to continue to make content for the game. Simple as that.

    The whole point of the video I linked is to point to how P2W COULD ruin a game and then things you should avoid so it doesn't, but don't get it twisted, the elements still exists in GW2. Overall, it's a tolerable level of P2W that can only get you so far but it will definitely get you that distance very quickly.

    So "But it has microtransactions, so it's P2W"? Yeah, that's what I'm dead set against even the idea of. Or is it "but xp boosts"? "but if they have more bag space, they're winning"? "Their character is prettier than mine"? kitten, you know, I bought some character slots too, how come I didn't automatically get Legendary gear? Maybe I should submit a ticket? Or maybe, it's because unlike other games, the gear, or the means to upgrade it aren't readily available in the CS? Maybe it's because, unlike other games, I can't go to the CS and buy some timed underwear that add to my stats for the duration, thus giving me a very real advantage over someone that didn't, as opposed to the "but I want more bag space, and they got it, so P2W"?

    Because you can buy professions/specs, you can buy gold for gear and can pay your way out of content.

    Don't be a spaz trying to put words in people's mouths or cherry pick points. If you feel personally attacked because someone called your game P2W, you have a problem. You, not me. I think GW2 has P2W features and it keeps them under controlled so it's fine. If you got a problem with that, then go back to living in your fairy tale game where everything is perfect and the bestest of best lol

    The problem, of course, with "spaz" is that we can find threads on these very forums making the claims that I listed. There's even one claiming that the entire concept of the cash shop is predatory. So I guess the solution is "don't be a spaz and try to ignore that everything I presented actually happens, right here in these forums, and I'd bet you can find some of them listed in this thread". You be sure to let me know when that gear is listed in the actual cash shop though, mmkay? The "but expansions" doesn't hold a lot of water either, expansions always come with new content, that's why they're expansions. The "but mounts" argument that's bound to come is negated by the fact that core Tyria is playable w/out them, all of it. It's playable w/out them because they didn't exist when the maps were made. So if you don't have access to the content where you'd need a mount, not having a mount doesn't hurt you. I forget to use mine more than I use them, and in some areas, they're more of a detriment, than a help.

  • Kurrilino.2706Kurrilino.2706 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    How is this even a question ?????
    There is not a single item in the gem store that elevates any stats or skills or anything of advantage.

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Leo G.4501 said:

    @Mungo Zen.9364 said:
    That does give a higher gold per hour than farming but, again, what are you buying to get an advantage?

    What have you ever spent a large sum of gold on? Materials or tokens for crafting? Upgrades for gear you already own? Some time gated item or just gear you didn't want to have to craft yourself? And if you've never spent gold on anything but cosmetics, then consider the high value gear you do use in WvW or PvE and consider how long it'd take you to gather those materials to level the craft/make the components for it.

    Or are we pretending now that gold does nothing of value in the game and everyone makes over 100k a day?

    @Mungo Zen.9364 said:
    As well as watching the video, I read your posts, I wanted to highlight the parts I enjoyed above to point out that acting like that won't draw people to your view, in fact it will push them away. I posted here in good faith and you spit on me and others in this thread. Have some maturity and be civil in a debate or discussion.

    Lol don't care. This is a troll thread anyway and so long as I'm not breaking the rules, you can't get my posts deleted granted that hasn't stopped them in the past so nope, don't care.

    Nothing, really. I've purchased armor from the trader for lvl 80 toons, and sigils and the like. How much cash have I spent to get the gold I spent? None. I'm sitting on about 170 gold right now, because I don't do gold grinds, and I don't spend it as fast as I earn it, mostly... What have I felt compelled to buy from the CS? Bank space, shared inventory space, crafting storage expansions and character slots. A lot of the stuff they gave away for free too, since it was free.

    Hmm, I wonder how long it would take... Well, I've sold stacks of 500 of the legendary mats to vendors, since I can't trade them, and I won't be using them. I don't have to worry about WvW or Raid/fractal stuff, because I won't be running it, so 0 expenditures there either. You see, I can't just grab my wallet and buy my way through games, so I don't even think about it. I pay for a sub, where it's an option, and I do what I can while it's active. When I can't carry a sub, and the game's really limited w/out one, I just don't log in. So my wallet isn't an "end all" solution to actually playing games. The whole reason I buy games, where that's required, is to play them, why cheat myself of that?

  • No

    Now i havent been playing GW2 for that long (picked up the game last year) P2W in general means that power is locked behind a cash wall and cannot be earned any other way and that these powers are usually way stronger than what can be earned ingame, hence creating a incencitive to buy to be up to pair with others.

    GW2 store only have cosmetics and small QoL things that is by no means a nessecerity to buy (like the endless gathernig tools and waypoint unlocker), there is no power to be bought from the store and even the legendary weapons doesnt have more dmg than their "regular" counterpart.

    So in short, GW2 isnt P2W, never been, never will be. Hell you can even farm gold ingame and convert into gems to buy stuff so you can litterly get stuff for free pretty much as long as you grind enought gold for it.

  • Dreamy Lu.3865Dreamy Lu.3865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    I voted no.
    What's in gemstore is "nice to have" only and the game goes very well without. Beside, even in game, thanks to the fact that lot of things are account/soul bound (including mats and local currencies), to have lot of gold isn't the mean to progress. It's sort of a double protection against P2W.

    WvW server: Henge of Denravi

  • No

    Define "win". I beat Zhaitan with Exotic class weapons and armor. No real currency spent.

  • No

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages in my previous post, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

    You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

    I dunno if that was what was stated, (missed the original statement you were refering to there) but from what I recall on "original" definition of p2w, the quote you are providing is omitting one crucial detail.

    "Anything you can buy from the game cash shop with real life money that gives you advantage over a player that doesn't spend real life money on it"

    That's more like definition I've used to know for past 15 years ;)

    And by this clarification there, You may notice we've removed whole gemstore out of equasion - because everything in the gemstore can be acquired with in-game gold. So no matter what was there, as long as we have currency exchange, player is not forced to spend any more irl money than buying the game, to obtain it.

  • mercury ranique.2170mercury ranique.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages in my previous post, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

    You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

    I dunno if that was what was stated, (missed the original statement you were refering to there) but from what I recall on "original" definition of p2w, the quote you are providing is omitting one crucial detail.

    "Anything you can buy from the game cash shop with real life money that gives you advantage over a player that doesn't spend real life money on it"

    That's more like definition I've used to know for past 15 years ;)

    And by this clarification there, You may notice we've removed whole gemstore out of equasion - because everything in the gemstore can be acquired with in-game gold. So no matter what was there, as long as we have currency exchange, player is not forced to spend any more irl money than buying the game, to obtain it.

    I agree for 99% with you.
    The 1% is that the transfer rate gold/gems is rather steep. This means that availability also is an issue. If there would be a statbooster that gives 1 hour of an advtange that is very significant and it requires 5 hours to farm the gold to get the gems to buy it, the P2W definition could be in view. Fortunally, this is not the case in GW2 and it does not fit the filosophy of Arenanet to introduce such a thing. The stuff that does not give a lasting advantage is limited and the advantage is very small (e.g. revive orbs are not giving a lasting advantage and they are not freely available, but the benefit is so minor that it still does not count as P2W)

  • No

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages in my previous post, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

    You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

    I dunno if that was what was stated, (missed the original statement you were refering to there) but from what I recall on "original" definition of p2w, the quote you are providing is omitting one crucial detail.

    "Anything you can buy from the game cash shop with real life money that gives you advantage over a player that doesn't spend real life money on it"

    That's more like definition I've used to know for past 15 years ;)

    And by this clarification there, You may notice we've removed whole gemstore out of equasion - because everything in the gemstore can be acquired with in-game gold. So no matter what was there, as long as we have currency exchange, player is not forced to spend any more irl money than buying the game, to obtain it.

    I agree for 99% with you.
    The 1% is that the transfer rate gold/gems is rather steep. This means that availability also is an issue. If there would be a statbooster that gives 1 hour of an advtange that is very significant and it requires 5 hours to farm the gold to get the gems to buy it, the P2W definition could be in view. Fortunally, this is not the case in GW2 and it does not fit the filosophy of Arenanet to introduce such a thing. The stuff that does not give a lasting advantage is limited and the advantage is very small (e.g. revive orbs are not giving a lasting advantage and they are not freely available, but the benefit is so minor that it still does not count as P2W)

    Well the gold/gems convertion rate is determined, by AN's "supply and demand" algorithm, dating all the way back to GW1's material traders. Side effect of that is that there is way more poeple that wants gems for gold, than people buying gems to turn them into gold, which drives the algorithm crazy ;)

    But fair point on boosters, I kind of forgot those are a thing in games xD

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages in my previous post, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

    You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

    I dunno if that was what was stated, (missed the original statement you were refering to there) but from what I recall on "original" definition of p2w, the quote you are providing is omitting one crucial detail.

    "Anything you can buy from the game cash shop with real life money that gives you advantage over a player that doesn't spend real life money on it"

    That's more like definition I've used to know for past 15 years ;)

    And by this clarification there, You may notice we've removed whole gemstore out of equasion - because everything in the gemstore can be acquired with in-game gold. So no matter what was there, as long as we have currency exchange, player is not forced to spend any more irl money than buying the game, to obtain it.

    I also agree with this. It wasn't my quote to begin with, just the one someone else gave that apparently in his opinion is the "actual definition" everyone should go by. I started using it to show that person, that by using that quote everything could be deemed P2W.

    *...the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.* - Andrew Gray, February 3, 2020

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    So what I understand as the result of the poll, Guild Wars 2 IS Pay2Win, depending on how you define it. Since everyone has, apparently, a different definition, there is no objective answer to the question. Which does makes a poll asking about something that is subjective rather pointless. That's like having a poll asking "what's your favorite color?"

  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    I'm surprised it got as many yes votes as it did because I wouldn't have expected anyone to keep playing a game they think is pay-to-win (regardless of how exactly they define it). Even if you can afford to be the one paying (and therefore 'winning') it's not going to be that fun or interesting and no one else is going to care so it just seems like a huge waste of money to me.

    I could imagine one or two yes votes if someone happened to catch this poll while trying the game, getting annoyed that it's pay-to-win and coming to the forum to complain or see if anyone else has complained, but 15 yes votes seems high to me and some of them are from people who have the 3 year badge on their forum profile, meaning they've been here for years.

    Danielle Aurorel, Desolation EU. Mini Collector

    "Life's a journey, not a destination."

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages in my previous post, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

    You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

    I dunno if that was what was stated, (missed the original statement you were refering to there) but from what I recall on "original" definition of p2w, the quote you are providing is omitting one crucial detail.

    "Anything you can buy from the game cash shop with real life money that gives you advantage over a player that doesn't spend real life money on it"

    That's more like definition I've used to know for past 15 years ;)

    And by this clarification there, You may notice we've removed whole gemstore out of equasion - because everything in the gemstore can be acquired with in-game gold. So no matter what was there, as long as we have currency exchange, player is not forced to spend any more irl money than buying the game, to obtain it.

    Yeah, that was my bad, I didn't know I was going to have to break it down that far in order to be understood. I felt that that was implied by "Pay", but...