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4/6 PvP Balance

Cal Cohen.2358Cal Cohen.2358 ArenaNet ArenaNet 
edited April 5, 2021 in PVP

Hi everyone,

Tomorrow’s release will include a few PvP balance changes, some of which we discussed in our post two weeks ago. We’re back again to provide some context behind these upcoming changes. We’re still evaluating the impact of the previous PvP balance update, but at the end of this post we’ll talk about a few areas we’re keeping an eye on for future updates.

4/6 Changes to Build Items and Support Heals

  • Removed Mender Amulet from the PvP Build panel.
  • Removed Marshal Amulet from the PvP Build panel.
  • Added Sigil of Transference to the PvP Build panel. In PvP, this sigil grants a 20% increase in outgoing healing effectiveness.
  • Elemental Bastion (Tempest): Increased heal scaling from 0.4125 to 0.55 in PvP only.
  • Selfless Daring (Guardian): Increased heal scaling from 0.6 to 0.9 in PvP only.
  • Call of Valor (Warrior): Increased barrier attribute scaling from 0.5 to 0.82 in PvP only.

As previously discussed, we removed Mender and Marshal amulets from PvP and added Sigil of Transference to compensate for the reduction of allied healing to support builds. While Marshal is currently overshadowed by Mender and not as much of a problem, we wanted Transference to be powerful, and we were concerned with how high it could push outgoing healing in combination with a 1000 healing power amulet for builds that are less reliant on the extra health that Mender provides.

Removing Mender amulet serves 2 purposes: it forces high-sustain side node builds into more aggressive amulets, and reduces the self-sustain of support builds. Mender amulet side noders are much more prone to stalemating fights and generally slowing down the pace of the game. Similarly, by reducing the self-sustain of support builds, we hope to see an increase in kill potential in fights and a general increase to overall pace. We still want support builds to be able to support their allies well, and targeting their self-sustain lets us keep a lot of their other skills at the same power level.

Our goal with Sigil of Transference is to keep support healing to allies around the same level that it currently is with Mender. Elemental Bastion, Selfless Daring, and Call of Valor stood out as three sources primarily used by support builds that are most heavily impacted by the removal of Mender, and so we’ve preemptively bumped up the healing coefficients to bring their allied healing with Avatar amulet and Sigil of Transference closer to where it is currently. Looking over other allied heals, some sources will heal for a bit more than they currently do with Mender and some will heal for a bit less, but overall output should be similar. We’ll keep a close eye on healing values as the meta develops without Mender and will make further adjustments as necessary.

4/6 Changes to Scourge

  • Sand Cascade: Reduced barrier attribute scaling from 1.0488 to 0.77 in PvP only.
  • Sand Flare: Reduced barrier attribute scaling from 0.75 to 0.45 in PvP only.
  • Desert Empowerment: Reduced barrier attribute scaling from 0.77 to 0.62 in PvP only.
  • Harbinger Shroud: Reduced barrier attribute scaling on detonation from 2.0 to 1.65 in PvP only.
  • Transfusion: Reduced pulse heal scaling from 0.1 to 0.08 in PvP only, when the Scourge specialization is equipped.

Scourge has continued to show strong results in both ranked play and automated tournaments, providing strong defense to itself and allies through barrier generation and healing while also creating a good amount of pressure through boon removal and damage. While Scourge sustain is affected by the removal of Mender amulet, given the current power level of the build we were concerned that the move to Avatar amulet alone wouldn’t be enough to bring it in line, so we’ve made additional shaves to the healing power coefficients of some of Scourge’s barrier generation and Transfusion.

Feed from Corruption is the most notable omission from this list. It’s a very powerful trait, granting Scourge access to a wide range of boons in potentially large quantities to enhance both its defensive and offensive potential. We are considering reducing some of the stronger boon applications in a future update, but we want to see how the removal of Mender and the reductions to healing and barrier coefficients play out first.

Looking Ahead
We’ll be evaluating the impact of tomorrow’s changes in addition to the recent March update on the side node meta and support builds. We still want dedicated support builds to be a viable option, and we’ll be paying close attention to how the meta develops following the removal of Mender and the addition of Transference.

Sigil of Transference has the potential to enable stronger healing from non-support builds that can afford to run Avatar or Sage amulet and may end up being too powerful for an individual sigil. We’re not opposed to enabling this type of build, but if they end up pushing dedicated supports completely out of the meta then we may reduce the outgoing healing granted by Transference and roll more outgoing healing into support traits or support runes to create a greater tradeoff for non-supports.

We’ve also considered the possibility that moving support builds from Mender to Avatar amulet could end up making them too squishy due to the reduction in self-healing. This is something that we’ll evaluate on a case-by-case basis, but we’re prepared to make further adjustments as necessary to find the right balance between squishiness and support power. This could involve buffs to more selfish survivability skills, or possibly further increasing outgoing support potential to justify the level of vulnerability.

That’s all we have for today. Thanks for reading, and we’ll see you in the mists!

-The Systems Team

aka cmc
Game Designer on PvP/WvW

Tagged:
<13

Comments

  • mixxed.5862mixxed.5862 Member ✭✭✭

    @mistsim.2748 said:
    Bro, did you forget about Druid? You gutted his healing output, and 20% increased heals to allies is nothing man.

    Anyway, glad to see the frequent changes.

    Leaves room to buff it into something other than the lame sidenode decap role later.

  • mistsim.2748mistsim.2748 Member ✭✭✭

    @Svez Poizon XD.5268 said:
    Druid use to be pure support and i see no changes for druid. There is only tempest-warrior-guardian.

    I think it's time to dust off my Sage Druid. Might be decent.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Removed Mender Amulet from the PvP Build panel. Removed Marshal Amulet from the PvP Build panel. Added Sigil of Transference to the PvP Build panel. In PvP, this sigil grants a 20% increase in outgoing healing effectiveness.

    This is a very good change.

    A lot of people were concerned that removing Menders from the game meant the end of support as a role, but with that sigil should allow supports to still exist -likely using Avatar- but just fixes the problem of supports also being able to Bunker and situationally 1v1.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    If we're buffing supports to compensate for mender's removal, can we also get the 50% nerf on Medical Dispersion Field reverted?

    Being forced into avatar is a big nerf to heal scrapper since self healing = allied healing.

    Also keep Marshal.

    Swap stats to

    1000 Power
    1000 Precison
    500 Healing Power
    500 Condition Damage.

    They would have to just make a new amulet for this to exist, since Marshals unlike Mender is also available to PvE and changing the stats of existing PvE gear is a nightmare.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    I should stress, I do not agree with the decision to remove mender amulet There are better ways to go about this, but I know these changes are most likely locked in and guaranteed to ship at this point so I say we use this opportunity to address some struggling support builds that have fallen by the wayside.

    That does not mean talking about the option of buffing them in the future after more nerfs go out. My god, we've had enough of that. We're still waiting on the possibility of getting the 300 sec cooldown traits reworked. I mean put the nerf bat aside (burn it if you have to), sit down, and really address the builds that are negatively impacted by the change.

    On a more positive note, I really do appreciate the communication. It's a welcome change of pace.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    They would have to just make a new amulet for this to exist, since Marshals unlike Mender is also available to PvE and changing the stats of existing PvE gear is a nightmare.

    PvP Stats differing from PvE is nothing new. All we're doing is swapping the weight of stats around.

    It'll still be less jarring than the difference between Wanderer Stats and Wanderer amulet

  • Avatar.3568Avatar.3568 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Druid OP !!

  • CMC you are very appreciated , thanks for your great work.

  • mixxed.5862mixxed.5862 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @mixxed.5862 said:

    @mistsim.2748 said:
    Bro, did you forget about Druid? You gutted his healing output, and 20% increased heals to allies is nothing man.

    Anyway, glad to see the frequent changes.

    Leaves room to buff it into something other than the lame sidenode decap role later.

    Yeah we're 9 years in. No one wants to wait 2 years for the "possibility" that a completely ruined class might get attention to become semi-viable.

    Druid had received nerfs to the actual skills/traits rather than it being handled with amulet removal. So when they remove Mender/Marshal to tend to 1 build on Scourge rather than nerfing the Scourge's actual traits/skill in question, Druid CA kit and the entire Druid specialization line will be completely useless outside of Ancient seeds. I mean USELESS capital and bolded.

    Removing Mender/Marshal is not the way to go about this at all. 100% guarantee you it's going to force the stalest most narrow meta we've ever seen x10.

    Have you been to wvw lately where there are still options for making different kinds of builds? Yeah it's amazingly fun. Going in there and messing around will remind you of how much more fun the game is when there are options to do different things.

    So you really enjoyed playing the current druid build that much?

  • Kolzar.9567Kolzar.9567 Member ✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Low and behold, what did i say would happen?


    Let me start by saying currently have no opinion on the change, but whilst trying to form one, I believe it is useful to have the correct math.
    I am not understanding the math in the second post you quoted. As you noted given a base heal of 442, a heal of 1200 with menders means the sum of your healing multipliers is at ~1.61 (I am not sure having modifiers of %60 outgoing healing falls into whether high or low, if someone has data on this it will be greatly appreciated), adding 0.2 with the new sigil and any amulet with 500 healing (which still exist) would yield an outgoing heal of 592*1.81~1075, a loss of 125 healing, or in relative terms a loss of less than 10%. Admittedly frost bow is just one example you picked, but it doesn't seem that large of a change, especially if the goal is to shave outgoing healing say around 10%-15% except a few targeted skills that had their coefficients changed (increased or decreased respectively) Overall it seems grossly misguided to require a 100% sigil, given the sum of healing multipliers is used at the tail end of the formula:
    Total healing done = [(mechanic-specific base healing) + (Healing Power) * (mechanic-specific coefficient)] * (sum of healing multipliers)
    Of course this could be readily verified as a total if there was a complete list of healing coefficients somewhere, but I couldn't find a list of coefficients in wiki without having to click through each healing skill individually.

    As a side note, while the removal of an amulet is by default reducing the set of feasible (not necessarily viable) alternatives a player can choose, the addition of the sigil makes the napkin math a little unclear as well, previously there were 18 amulets and 25 sigils, leading to 450 feasible (again not necessarily viable) combinations, now there are 416 feasible combinations of amulets and sigils, so even though the set of feasible choices got reduced the effect on the set of viable alternatives is not clear to me.

  • Chaarliee.2307Chaarliee.2307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi everyone,

    Tomorrow’s release will include a few PvP balance changes, some of which we discussed in our post two weeks ago. We’re back again to provide some context behind these upcoming changes. We’re still evaluating the impact of the previous PvP balance update, but at the end of this post we’ll talk about a few areas we’re keeping an eye on for future updates.

    4/6 Changes to Build Items and Support Heals

    • Removed Mender Amulet from the PvP Build panel.
    • Removed Marshal Amulet from the PvP Build panel.
    • Added Sigil of Transference to the PvP Build panel. In PvP, this sigil grants a 20% increase in outgoing healing effectiveness.
    • Elemental Bastion (Tempest): Increased heal scaling from 0.4125 to 0.55 in PvP only.
    • Selfless Daring (Guardian): Increased heal scaling from 0.6 to 0.9 in PvP only.
    • Call of Valor (Warrior): Increased barrier attribute scaling from 0.5 to 0.82 in PvP only.

    As previously discussed, we removed Mender and Marshal amulets from PvP and added Sigil of Transference to compensate for the reduction of allied healing to support builds. While Marshal is currently overshadowed by Mender and not as much of a problem, we wanted Transference to be powerful, and we were concerned with how high it could push outgoing healing in combination with a 1000 healing power amulet for builds that are less reliant on the extra health that Mender provides.

    Removing Mender amulet serves 2 purposes: it forces high-sustain side node builds into more aggressive amulets, and reduces the self-sustain of support builds. Mender amulet side noders are much more prone to stalemating fights and generally slowing down the pace of the game. Similarly, by reducing the self-sustain of support builds, we hope to see an increase in kill potential in fights and a general increase to overall pace. We still want support builds to be able to support their allies well, and targeting their self-sustain lets us keep a lot of their other skills at the same power level.

    Our goal with Sigil of Transference is to keep support healing to allies around the same level that it currently is with Mender. Elemental Bastion, Selfless Daring, and Call of Valor stood out as three sources primarily used by support builds that are most heavily impacted by the removal of Mender, and so we’ve preemptively bumped up the healing coefficients to bring their allied healing with Avatar amulet and Sigil of Transference closer to where it is currently. Looking over other allied heals, some sources will heal for a bit more than they currently do with Mender and some will heal for a bit less, but overall output should be similar. We’ll keep a close eye on healing values as the meta develops without Mender and will make further adjustments as necessary.

    4/6 Changes to Scourge

    • Sand Cascade: Reduced barrier attribute scaling from 1.0488 to 0.77 in PvP only.
    • Sand Flare: Reduced barrier attribute scaling from 0.75 to 0.45 in PvP only.
    • Desert Empowerment: Reduced barrier attribute scaling from 0.77 to 0.62 in PvP only.
    • Harbinger Shroud: Reduced barrier attribute scaling on detonation from 2.0 to 1.65 in PvP only.
    • Transfusion: Reduced pulse heal scaling from 0.1 to 0.08 in PvP only, when the Scourge specialization is equipped.

    Scourge has continued to show strong results in both ranked play and automated tournaments, providing strong defense to itself and allies through barrier generation and healing while also creating a good amount of pressure through boon removal and damage. While Scourge sustain is affected by the removal of Mender amulet, given the current power level of the build we were concerned that the move to Avatar amulet alone wouldn’t be enough to bring it in line, so we’ve made additional shaves to the healing power coefficients of some of Scourge’s barrier generation and Transfusion.

    Feed from Corruption is the most notable omission from this list. It’s a very powerful trait, granting Scourge access to a wide range of boons in potentially large quantities to enhance both its defensive and offensive potential. We are considering reducing some of the stronger boon applications in a future update, but we want to see how the removal of Mender and the reductions to healing and barrier coefficients play out first.

    Looking Ahead
    We’ll be evaluating the impact of tomorrow’s changes in addition to the recent March update on the side node meta and support builds. We still want dedicated support builds to be a viable option, and we’ll be paying close attention to how the meta develops following the removal of Mender and the addition of Transference.

    Sigil of Transference has the potential to enable stronger healing from non-support builds that can afford to run Avatar or Sage amulet and may end up being too powerful for an individual sigil. We’re not opposed to enabling this type of build, but if they end up pushing dedicated supports completely out of the meta then we may reduce the outgoing healing granted by Transference and roll more outgoing healing into support traits or support runes to create a greater tradeoff for non-supports.

    We’ve also considered the possibility that moving support builds from Mender to Avatar amulet could end up making them too squishy due to the reduction in self-healing. This is something that we’ll evaluate on a case-by-case basis, but we’re prepared to make further adjustments as necessary to find the right balance between squishiness and support power. This could involve buffs to more selfish survivability skills, or possibly further increasing outgoing support potential to justify the level of vulnerability.

    That’s all we have for today. Thanks for reading, and we’ll see you in the mists!

    -The Systems Team

    Great. Now what will you do with all the bots and hackers in the game ?

  • Excursion.9752Excursion.9752 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The pendulum swings from one meta to the next. Eventually we will stop on a class balance version that resembles James Bond Golden Eye 007 where we all use golden guns and one hit quit people. Of course the support builds would see a nerf after the countless nerfs of power creep builds. The problem was always there they just couldn't see it yet.

    The answer in my opinion is they should have worked on builds to bring things up to par with the current meta builds not the opposite. Removing amulets just reduces options. I would suggest they take a look at what amulets are not being used and fix those to make them more desirable.

                                                              There is a 50% chance you will not agree with me and a 50% chance I will not agree with you
    
  • XxsdgxX.8109XxsdgxX.8109 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    While the attention to sPvP is greatly appreciated, the lack of attention to wvw balance is becoming a little worrisome.

    If they are balancing PVP around the removal of amulets then WvW is truly ******, because so many people run PvP banned prefixes such as Minstrels and Trailblazer over there.

  • Kondor.2904Kondor.2904 Member ✭✭✭

    @XxsdgxX.8109 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    While the attention to sPvP is greatly appreciated, the lack of attention to wvw balance is becoming a little worrisome.

    If they are balancing PVP around the removal of amulets then WvW is truly ******, because so many people run PvP banned prefixes such as Minstrels and Trailblazer over there.

    And that's probably why wvw looks like a complete pepega fest ¯_(ツ)_/¯, which is most likely still intentional, so i wouldn't be worried

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Excursion.9752 said:
    The pendulum swings from one meta to the next. Eventually we will stop on a class balance version that resembles James Bond Golden Eye 007 where we all use golden guns and one hit quit people. Of course the support builds would see a nerf after the countless nerfs of power creep builds. The problem was always there they just couldn't see it yet.

    The answer in my opinion is they should have worked on builds to bring things up to par with the current meta builds not the opposite. Removing amulets just reduces options. I would suggest they take a look at what amulets are not being used and fix those to make them more desirable.

    No items, Thief only, Final destination.

  • Fashion Mage.3712Fashion Mage.3712 Member ✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Low and behold, what did i say would happen?

    Exactly. Like do they even understand how something as simple as healing scaling works in their own game? They just plop down the 20% extra healing and act like it's going to affect every healing skill equally, as if healing power coefficients suddenly just aren't a thing.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    @Kolzar.9567 said:
    Let me start by saying currently have no opinion on the change, but whilst trying to form one, I believe it is useful to have the correct math.
    I am not understanding the math in the second post you quoted. As you noted given a base heal of 442, a heal of 1200 with menders means the sum of your healing multipliers is at ~1.61 (I am not sure having modifiers of %60 outgoing healing falls into whether high or low, if someone has data on this it will be greatly appreciated),

    Ya, it's a little less than 60% outgoing. You have Aquamancer's Training (15%) + Monk Runes (10%) + Healing Arrows Buff (20%) which is 45% outgoing healing, just round to 50%.

    442 Base Healing + 352 Coefficient Healing (1175 Healing Power) is 800 Healing Via Water Arrow. With the modifiers of 50% thats 800+400 which is 1200 from Water Arrow.

    Remove Healing Power now, and you have 442 Base Healing + 0 coefficient Healing. That's 450 Healing via Water Arrow. With 50% Modifer's that's 450+225 which is 675 Healing from Water Arrow. In order to get 1200 from before, you need 150% Healing Modifiers. 100% (transfusion) +50% (Ele's traits)

    So ya, my math is correct. To replace Menders, you'd need 100% additional outgoing healing. We only got 20%...so all supports have now incurred about a 50% nerf to all healing. They assume that people will take Sage's and Avatar's...Sure...so it's more like a 25-30% nerf for all supports, that are now forced to take Sage's or Avatar...Course this doesn't take into account low base healing and high coefficients. So in essence, the higher the base healing the less the nerf impacts you...

  • aymnad.9023aymnad.9023 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    As I said in the previous patch note I will support this change if there are regular adjustments which you seem to aim for. The change of the amulet + the loss of a sigil is a double nerf to support sustain. Maybe some teams will stack double off supports.

    I would have loved to see some druid changes (but to be honest it needs mechanical changes [not being forced into 1s or more delay for a fast paced game mode + energy loss on downstate] or a complete change of some skill and not just number tweaks).

  • Lucentfir.7430Lucentfir.7430 Member ✭✭✭

    @XxsdgxX.8109 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    While the attention to sPvP is greatly appreciated, the lack of attention to wvw balance is becoming a little worrisome.

    If they are balancing PVP around the removal of amulets then WvW is truly ******, because so many people run PvP banned prefixes such as Minstrels and Trailblazer over there.

    Hope they don't ruin WvW next, best to keep the garbage of Spvp within Spvp, and keep WvW as the unfiltered experience as is, otherwise they remove the only niche those stats have for existing. No one runs those stats in PVE because it's all DPS go Brrrrrr in PVE.

  • Abyssisis.3971Abyssisis.3971 Member ✭✭✭

    No barrier or shroud toning down. Fml

  • Kolzar.9567Kolzar.9567 Member ✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Kolzar.9567 said:
    Let me start by saying currently have no opinion on the change, but whilst trying to form one, I believe it is useful to have the correct math.
    I am not understanding the math in the second post you quoted. As you noted given a base heal of 442, a heal of 1200 with menders means the sum of your healing multipliers is at ~1.61 (I am not sure having modifiers of %60 outgoing healing falls into whether high or low, if someone has data on this it will be greatly appreciated),

    Ya, it's a little less than 60% outgoing. You have Aquamancer's Training (15%) + Monk Runes (10%) + Healing Arrows Buff (20%) which is 45% outgoing healing, just round to 50%.

    442 Base Healing + 352 Coefficient Healing (1175 Healing Power) is 800 Healing Via Water Arrow. With the modifiers of 50% thats 800+400 which is 1200 from Water Arrow.

    Remove Healing Power now, and you have 442 Base Healing + 0 coefficient Healing. That's 450 Healing via Water Arrow. With 50% Modifer's that's 450+225 which is 675 Healing from Water Arrow. In order to get 1200 from before, you need 150% Healing Modifiers. 100% (transfusion) +50% (Ele's traits)

    So ya, my math is correct. To replace Menders, you'd need 100% additional outgoing healing. We only got 20%...so all supports have now incurred about a 50% nerf to all healing. They assume that people will take Sage's and Avatar's...Sure...so it's more like a 25-30% nerf for all supports, that are now forced to take Sage's or Avatar...Course this doesn't take into account low base healing abilities, or skills with terribly low coefficients. So in essence, the higher the base healing the less the nerf impacts you...

    How is this a sensible comparison? You seem to be expecting to get the same amount of healing without taking any healing on your amulet. If we go with your hyperbola, now with Berserkers (0 coefficient as you note) you would be healing more since you just got some free multipliers, so this would be a buff from your perspective. You can just take any of the 500 healing power amulets and then do the math again.

    Furthermore net of the removal I can see this sigil enabling some comps both competitively and improve ranked diversity. Take a comp such as the one Prestige used in the Hardstuck tournament with no dedicated supports and suffered in teamfights. Now such comps could be more viable, just pick some sidenoder like a weaver and slap on the sigil. It still performs almost equally as a side noder but in team fights it will work as a halfway support so now you can have comps that either have dedicated sups and teamfighters, or maybe more roamers and sidenoders. Of course this argument would be invalid if the sup + teamfighter comps got removed altogether, but given the nerf is a lot more modest than what you are trying to imply, I don't see why current sups can't just pick say avatar or sages as opposed to menders and be ok.

    Edit: Actually, my question was whether %61 was high, and seems like you rounded things up, clearly you should be able to see that the impact of this nerf actually gets smaller as the sum decreases, so at %45 or at 35% without monks the addition of 20% closes the gap even more, so it would be more on the margin of 5-7% percent, but at this point I don't find your 1200 number itself reliable.

    Edit2: Another user verified below the change is on the margin of %7. Again as the total number of multipliers available decrease the nerf gets even less significant, and 20% from water arrows seems like it is on the higher end rather than the lower.

  • Abelisk.5148Abelisk.5148 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't get why people were opposed to the removal of those amulets. They were busted and resulted in a stale meta. Outgoing healing is definitely the way to go as it's less selfish and more selfless of an option. It will encourage teamwork among players. We can also see Ventari support coming back? :flushed:

  • @Kolzar.9567 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Low and behold, what did i say would happen?


    Let me start by saying currently have no opinion on the change, but whilst trying to form one, I believe it is useful to have the correct math.
    I am not understanding the math in the second post you quoted. As you noted given a base heal of 442, a heal of 1200 with menders means the sum of your healing multipliers is at ~1.61 (I am not sure having modifiers of %60 outgoing healing falls into whether high or low, if someone has data on this it will be greatly appreciated), adding 0.2 with the new sigil and any amulet with 500 healing (which still exist) would yield an outgoing heal of 592*1.81~1075, a loss of 125 healing, or in relative terms a loss of less than 10%. Admittedly frost bow is just one example you picked, but it doesn't seem that large of a change, especially if the goal is to shave outgoing healing say around 10%-15% except a few targeted skills that had their coefficients changed (increased or decreased respectively) Overall it seems grossly misguided to require a 100% sigil, given the sum of healing multipliers is used at the tail end of the formula:
    Total healing done = [(mechanic-specific base healing) + (Healing Power) * (mechanic-specific coefficient)] * (sum of healing multipliers)
    Of course this could be readily verified as a total if there was a complete list of healing coefficients somewhere, but I couldn't find a list of coefficients in wiki without having to click through each healing skill individually.

    As a side note, while the removal of an amulet is by default reducing the set of feasible (not necessarily viable) alternatives a player can choose, the addition of the sigil makes the napkin math a little unclear as well, previously there were 18 amulets and 25 sigils, leading to 450 feasible (again not necessarily viable) combinations, now there are 416 feasible combinations of amulets and sigils, so even though the set of feasible choices got reduced the effect on the set of viable alternatives is not clear to me.

    I was curious about the math on that too because that didn't sound right... so real quick I put together a build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGgAg2lRwCZOsFWJe2SrtfA-z5AXG9WAdnA+OA

    With that build, I can get water arrow healing an ally for 1241 assuming I have 2 stacks of water arrows (thanks to coefficients from water arrow, monk rune, and 3rd minor in water). When I equip avatar instead of mendors and add an additional coefficient of 0.2, I get 1153 on an ally which is a loss of about 7.1%.

  • ellesee.8297ellesee.8297 Member ✭✭✭

    Condi engi when?

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    @Kolzar.9567 said:
    How is this a sensible comparison? You seem to be expecting to get the same amount of healing without taking any healing on your amulet.

    The idea of the patch was that Transfusion was supposed to replace healing stats, since bunkers were using healing stats to remain bunker-y. Outgoing healing doesn't effect yourself, and so that was the whole point...to just get rid of bunky playstyle without killing support viability by granting us a sigil that would replace the healing stats we would lose. duh?

    Edit: Actually, my question was whether %61 was high, and seems like you rounded things up clearly you should be able to see that the impact of this nerf actually gets smaller as the sum decreases, so at %45 or at 35% without monks the addition of 20% closes the gap even more, so it would be more on the margin of 5-7% percent, but at this point I don't find your 1200 number itself reliable

    Bro u really want to start with me on math? You're dealing with one of the few people on this forum that applies mathematics and complex physics to the game to talk about balance changes.

    I'll make this short and sweet and just show u a picture if you think I'm lying. Again, everything is the same as what I said in the previous comment. 45% Healing Modifiers, with a Menders amulet stat of 1200.

    With Menders

    With Zerkers

    Now do the math yourself. just add up how much of a healing loss it will be given an extra 20% Transfusion sigil, and compare it to menders right now. it's in the realm of a 40ish% nerf. If you are forced to run Avatar yes, the impact of the nerf would be less (half of 40% which is 20% nerf) so you said 7%...but a decrease from 1300 healing to 1100 healing is in order of a 20% nerf...

  • Lord of the Fire.6870Lord of the Fire.6870 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    @thancock.6307 said:

    @Kolzar.9567 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Low and behold, what did i say would happen?


    Let me start by saying currently have no opinion on the change, but whilst trying to form one, I believe it is useful to have the correct math.
    I am not understanding the math in the second post you quoted. As you noted given a base heal of 442, a heal of 1200 with menders means the sum of your healing multipliers is at ~1.61 (I am not sure having modifiers of %60 outgoing healing falls into whether high or low, if someone has data on this it will be greatly appreciated), adding 0.2 with the new sigil and any amulet with 500 healing (which still exist) would yield an outgoing heal of 592*1.81~1075, a loss of 125 healing, or in relative terms a loss of less than 10%. Admittedly frost bow is just one example you picked, but it doesn't seem that large of a change, especially if the goal is to shave outgoing healing say around 10%-15% except a few targeted skills that had their coefficients changed (increased or decreased respectively) Overall it seems grossly misguided to require a 100% sigil, given the sum of healing multipliers is used at the tail end of the formula:
    Total healing done = [(mechanic-specific base healing) + (Healing Power) * (mechanic-specific coefficient)] * (sum of healing multipliers)
    Of course this could be readily verified as a total if there was a complete list of healing coefficients somewhere, but I couldn't find a list of coefficients in wiki without having to click through each healing skill individually.

    As a side note, while the removal of an amulet is by default reducing the set of feasible (not necessarily viable) alternatives a player can choose, the addition of the sigil makes the napkin math a little unclear as well, previously there were 18 amulets and 25 sigils, leading to 450 feasible (again not necessarily viable) combinations, now there are 416 feasible combinations of amulets and sigils, so even though the set of feasible choices got reduced the effect on the set of viable alternatives is not clear to me.

    I was curious about the math on that too because that didn't sound right... so real quick I put together a build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGgAg2lRwCZOsFWJe2SrtfA-z5AXG9WAdnA+OA

    With that build, I can get water arrow healing an ally for 1241 assuming I have 2 stacks of water arrows (thanks to coefficients from water arrow, monk rune, and 3rd minor in water). When I equip avatar instead of mendors and add an additional coefficient of 0.2, I get 1153 on an ally which is a loss of about 7.1%.

    Well everyone who know how little the builds heal after last years feb patch already knew this we said so already in the last patch. On one side it is nice they patch so fast after months of nothing on the other side they seems to have take 0 input from the last patch pvp thread.

    I also took Avatar but there is even more option . I guessed we will have losses in a 1 digit % but when you add the new sigil we got then:

    • more healing if 7.1% and use the Sigil of Transference then for others it increase by 13.9%
    • we do (more)dmg now.
    • we have the same HP pool as previously.
    • okay we lose a bit on self heal
    • we are now bruiser builds.
    • exception are the necros they lose barrier.

    The main reasons why pvp is so sluggish are untouched

    • Some builds are over nerfed
    • We have people who can't do their rota
    • half a minute of cc and block skills tendency increasing.
  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mixxed.5862 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @mixxed.5862 said:

    @mistsim.2748 said:
    Bro, did you forget about Druid? You gutted his healing output, and 20% increased heals to allies is nothing man.

    Anyway, glad to see the frequent changes.

    Leaves room to buff it into something other than the lame sidenode decap role later.

    Yeah we're 9 years in. No one wants to wait 2 years for the "possibility" that a completely ruined class might get attention to become semi-viable.

    Druid had received nerfs to the actual skills/traits rather than it being handled with amulet removal. So when they remove Mender/Marshal to tend to 1 build on Scourge rather than nerfing the Scourge's actual traits/skill in question, Druid CA kit and the entire Druid specialization line will be completely useless outside of Ancient seeds. I mean USELESS capital and bolded.

    Removing Mender/Marshal is not the way to go about this at all. 100% guarantee you it's going to force the stalest most narrow meta we've ever seen x10.

    Have you been to wvw lately where there are still options for making different kinds of builds? Yeah it's amazingly fun. Going in there and messing around will remind you of how much more fun the game is when there are options to do different things.

    So you really enjoyed playing the current druid build that much?

    Not at all.

    I come from a time of Druiding long before this recent variant.

    I stopped using Druid when they nerfed pet stats by 20% and removed evade frame on Ancestral Grace. It was then that Core Ranger and Soulbeast became solid choices over anything the Druid could do in spvp. The Druid decap thing was only niche for a very short time. It was never a good build in higher tier play. Having 1 Druid pull an MAT win while using it made people think it was a strong meta, but I assure you this was just a niche choice for the player who played it.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    @Kolzar.9567 said:

    Let's clear this up right now before anyone get's confused, because I see why there's a problem here.

    Let's say you have a skill that has 0 base healing, and a 1.0 coefficient. With 1000 Healing Power from Menders this skills does 1000 heal. Swapping to Avatar is a 50% nerf, as your healing of this skill goes from 1000 healing to 500. Add a 20% modifier Healing modifier, and that 500 becomes 600, for a total of a 40% nerf.

    Also in this case, you would need 100% modifiers to go from 500 to 1000 again.

    In other words, the impact of the change will depend on how hardcore your build depends on the coefficient of the heal (and also it's base heal), which means your dependence on the build for healing power. Frost Bow has a high base and a low-ish coefficient, so it's less effected by the change then say, Soothing Power/Soothing Mist, which have a 1.0 and 2.0 coefficient...also i said this already two comments ago idk why i had to say this again.

  • Miguron.3067Miguron.3067 Member ✭✭

    just give it a try, they are bound to fix this changes, what do you guys want ? no communication again ? pls

  • Sorrow.7298Sorrow.7298 Member ✭✭

    Just give ranger spirits the gyro treatment, they literally melt in PvP . They would be super meaningful for support/heal druid and the speed they melt to damage is kinda sad. WE BELIEVE IN YOU CMC !!!

  • Crozame.4098Crozame.4098 Member ✭✭✭

    what about the fing trapper rune?

  • Lord of the Fire.6870Lord of the Fire.6870 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Kolzar.9567 said:

    Let's clear this up right now before anyone get's confused, because I see why there's a problem here.

    Let's say you have a skill that has 0 base healing, and a 1.0 coefficient. With 1000 Healing Power from Menders this skills does 1000 heal. Swapping to Avatar is a 50% nerf, as your healing of this skill goes from 1000 healing to 500. Add a 20% modifier Healing modifier, and that 500 becomes 600, for a total of a 40% nerf.

    Also in this case, you would need 100% modifiers to go from 500 to 1000 again.

    In other words, the impact of the change will depend on how hardcore your build depends on the coefficient of the heal (and also it's base heal), which means your dependence on the build for healing power. Frost Bow has a high base and a low-ish coefficient, so it's less effected by the change then say, Soothing Power/Soothing Mist, which have a 1.0 and 2.0 coefficient...also i said this already two comments ago idk why i had to say this again.

    Yes this is the problem but people know from experience that the coefficient and base heal are already nerfed to the ground. Some build had low amount of healing from the beginning like heal warrior because of this all meta support builds became condi clean tanks with cc.

    Basically who has more cc and block wins in a game of musical chair

  • lovemghool.7613lovemghool.7613 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm glad to see you keeping the former esl players happy

  • Kolzar.9567Kolzar.9567 Member ✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Kolzar.9567 said:

    Let's clear this up right now before anyone get's confused, because I see why there's a problem here.

    Let's say you have a skill that has 0 base healing, and a 1.0 coefficient. With 1000 Healing Power from Menders this skills does 1000 heal. Swapping to Avatar is a 50% nerf, as your healing of this skill goes from 1000 healing to 500. Add a 20% modifier Healing modifier, and that 500 becomes 600, for a total of a 40% nerf.

    Also in this case, you would need 100% modifiers to go from 500 to 1000 again.

    In other words, the impact of the change will depend on how hardcore your build depends on the coefficient of the heal (and also it's base heal), which means your dependence on the build for healing power. Frost Bow has a high base and a low-ish coefficient, so it's less effected by the change then say, Soothing Power/Soothing Mist, which have a 1.0 and 2.0 coefficient...also i said this already two comments ago idk why i had to say this again.

    I am sorry but this again doesn't make sense, first you wanted to heal as much as menders did with an amulet with 0 healing power, now you want to heal with an ability that has base 0 healing. Were you expecting to heal with decapitate, maybe blink? As another user pointed out the change in your original example is a loss of 7.1% exactly, I don't know what is there to further discuss.

  • Samug.6512Samug.6512 Member ✭✭✭

    Maybe like literally anything for World vs World? Most of my guild moved to ESO already, for the love of God, do anything,

    [NUKE]

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @Kolzar.9567 said:
    I am sorry but this again doesn't make sense

    How does it not make sense? You can literately see how the impact of the nerf is dependent on what the healing coefficient is. I just said...the higher the coefficient, the more the change nerfs you, the lower the coefficient, the less it impacts you. The more base heal you have, the less the nerf impacts you.

    In fact skills that have 1000 Base heal and 0 healing coefficient, are buffed by the change, a flat 20% increase to outgoing healing, is a flat 20% buff, because a skill with 0 healing coefficient and some finite base heal doesn't depend on healing power thus a change from Menders to Avatar's doesn't matter. Get with the program bud.

  • Swing.6439Swing.6439 Member ✭✭✭

    Hi, where's druid if y'all are making changes to support builds? Or did you forget that you completely disgraced the class along with the other HoT specs because you desperately want people to buy PoF?