pls deside the scourge nerfs fast — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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pls deside the scourge nerfs fast

Avatar.3568Avatar.3568 Member ✭✭✭✭

i get more and more games where i play against more than 2 scourges in ranked, i like the idea of removing marshall and menders but i think this will be not enaugh, maybe take a look at the corruption it takes.

but pls make the nerfs fast, letting this class alone feels even worse than before, because so many run it now

<1

Comments

  • Eugchriss.2046Eugchriss.2046 Member ✭✭✭

    I think one of the issues is that scourge's barrier is an aoe. I mean if barrier is supposed to be scourge's shroud, then I shouldn't be shareable, just like the other specs of the class. Or if it was willingly designed to be shareable then it should be less efficient than core/reaper shroud in terms of raw "extra life".

  • Aktium.9506Aktium.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    then it should be less efficient than core/reaper shroud in terms of raw "extra life".

    It technically is, just to be factual. Death and Reaper Shrouds have a hidden -50% damage modifier. Barrier does not.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    I think one of the issues is that scourge's barrier is an aoe. I mean if barrier is supposed to be scourge's shroud, then I shouldn't be shareable, just like the other specs of the class. Or if it was willingly designed to be shareable then it should be less efficient than core/reaper shroud in terms of raw "extra life".

    One of the issues is: Scourge in pve raids is already flimsy at best and undesireable at worse.
    In WVW where it matters for these kinda things, i can see it being outright undesired and unsued from such a nerf, and it would require a huge overhaul to have some support it fits for SPVP and wvw. I'm not sure how its sustain would be without barriers for scourge, but i doubt it would be good.

    Best bet would be to give something a counter to barrier that works, so it can be countered effectively neutering the power of barrier instead of outright deleting, such as buffing warriors with it, give rogues that ability too perhaps or mesmer.

    GW2 needs to have classes that coutner bunkers and what counters bunkers? Supposedly heavy burst, if the burst isn't heavy enough, then heavy burst needs to be returned in moderation.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Daddy.8125Daddy.8125 Member ✭✭

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

  • Paradoxoglanis.1904Paradoxoglanis.1904 Member ✭✭✭✭

    All aoe and passive sustain needs nerfing, but that cant be the only changes otherwise the current meta will just be replaced with another broken one. Other abilities that encourage skilled play and counterplay need to be buffed.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    Yes, this is why removing more amulets is definitely not the answer.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    I think one of the issues is that scourge's barrier is an aoe. I mean if barrier is supposed to be scourge's shroud, then I shouldn't be shareable, just like the other specs of the class. Or if it was willingly designed to be shareable then it should be less efficient than core/reaper shroud in terms of raw "extra life".

    One of the issues is: Scourge in pve raids is already flimsy at best and undesireable at worse.
    In WVW where it matters for these kinda things, i can see it being outright undesired and unsued from such a nerf, and it would require a huge overhaul to have some support it fits for SPVP and wvw. I'm not sure how its sustain would be without barriers for scourge, but i doubt it would be good.

    Objectively, Scourge is the spec that currently have the most boon conversion option, which make it unlikely to ever be undesirable in WvW.

    Best bet would be to give something a counter to barrier that works, so it can be countered effectively neutering the power of barrier instead of outright deleting, such as buffing warriors with it, give rogues that ability too perhaps or mesmer.

    Best bet is probably to have ANet reduce barrier output by 33% in sPvP/WvW. Scourge's barrier values weren't touched by the Feb patch after all, it was only a matter of time before players realized that you could also play scourge defensively (It took more than a year, but well...).

    GW2 needs to have classes that coutner bunkers and what counters bunkers? Supposedly heavy burst, if the burst isn't heavy enough, then heavy burst needs to be returned in moderation.

    Nope, "heavy burst" is supposed to be a glass canon and glass canons are supposed to be countered by bunkers (not the opposite). A bunker is supposed to be countered by builds that stripped them from their defense. Problem is that GW2 is a game that allow way to much room for "hybrid" roles and what we call "bunker" here is more like a "bunker+support all in one". This lead players to hate on "bunkers" because there is nothing that can effectively counter a bunker which is also it's own support (The natural strategy usually being to take down the support before taking care of the bunker).

    It is the main flaw of the game, in order to allow all professions to perform all roles, the limit between roles have been thined to the point that builds with no realistic counters may appear and, with time, became the norm. "Support" and "tanky" builds have no inate penalities and thus have no natural counters, it is as simple as that.

  • Avatar.3568Avatar.3568 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    You mean the nerfs that they reverted with Feb patch 2k20

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    They should nerf the radiuses for Marks and Sand Shades, just like they neutered the radiuses of Symbols.
    And the barrier generation could be nerfed substantially.

    But I disagree with removing even more amulets.

    The problem with menders and Marshall Amulett is that they are the best amuletts for sidenoding, it's nearly impossible kill beat a firebrand, a scourge, a decap, when they run a support Amulett, and that comes from a guy that was last year 95% sidenoding, those builds are not doing significant dmg, they just don't get any dmg. The problem was earlier not a problem because A pof specs where not released yet, B with pof was the power creep x10

    Now they nerfed the dmg and we have since a year a bunker meta that butchers any skillfull plays, because "use every defense traitline, heal permanently yourself, blind the enemy's, put your aoes down and use the one or 2 knockbacks you have to secure the node"

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021

    @Avatar.3568 said:
    Now they nerfed the dmg and we have since a year a bunker meta that butchers any skillfull plays, because "use every defense traitline, heal permanently yourself, blind the enemy's, put your aoes down and use the one or 2 knockbacks you have to secure the node"

    The powercreep is the root of the problem.
    And that's why Arenanet should apply nerfs that combat both sustain and AoE spam.
    The root needs to be tackled, not auxiliary systems like the amulets.
    If the powercreep had been properly fixed, said auxiliary systems should not warrant enough problems to be removed.

    I actually wish they'd also nerf CC, but the Feb 2020 patch is a strong indicator how much Arenanet likes CC spam,
    so I have no hopes that CC will ever reasonably get touched.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    I think one of the issues is that scourge's barrier is an aoe. I mean if barrier is supposed to be scourge's shroud, then I shouldn't be shareable, just like the other specs of the class. Or if it was willingly designed to be shareable then it should be less efficient than core/reaper shroud in terms of raw "extra life".

    One of the issues is: Scourge in pve raids is already flimsy at best and undesireable at worse.
    In WVW where it matters for these kinda things, i can see it being outright undesired and unsued from such a nerf, and it would require a huge overhaul to have some support it fits for SPVP and wvw. I'm not sure how its sustain would be without barriers for scourge, but i doubt it would be good.

    Objectively, Scourge is the spec that currently have the most boon conversion option, which make it unlikely to ever be undesirable in WvW.

    Best bet would be to give something a counter to barrier that works, so it can be countered effectively neutering the power of barrier instead of outright deleting, such as buffing warriors with it, give rogues that ability too perhaps or mesmer.

    Best bet is probably to have ANet reduce barrier output by 33% in sPvP/WvW. Scourge's barrier values weren't touched by the Feb patch after all, it was only a matter of time before players realized that you could also play scourge defensively (It took more than a year, but well...).

    GW2 needs to have classes that coutner bunkers and what counters bunkers? Supposedly heavy burst, if the burst isn't heavy enough, then heavy burst needs to be returned in moderation.

    Nope, "heavy burst" is supposed to be a glass canon and glass canons are supposed to be countered by bunkers (not the opposite). A bunker is supposed to be countered by builds that stripped them from their defense. Problem is that GW2 is a game that allow way to much room for "hybrid" roles and what we call "bunker" here is more like a "bunker+support all in one". This lead players to hate on "bunkers" because there is nothing that can effectively counter a bunker which is also it's own support (The natural strategy usually being to take down the support before taking care of the bunker).

    It is the main flaw of the game, in order to allow all professions to perform all roles, the limit between roles have been thined to the point that builds with no realistic counters may appear and, with time, became the norm. "Support" and "tanky" builds have no inate penalities and thus have no natural counters, it is as simple as that.

    Then make reaper thief mesmers stronger at boonripping then. Make these classes who are heavy on boonrips desired to be played for countering scourge.

    What was it chrono that had all the rips? where are the chronos bring back chrono viability to counter scourge.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

  • Daddy.8125Daddy.8125 Member ✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    Given how quick non-bunker players die, the damage doesn't need to rise.
    Bunkers are the current problem and need to be toned down.

    We don't need to go back to that stupidity of people getting downed in less than two seconds.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    ye lets flock to the next fotm bunker build like good little casuals

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    Maybe if they're afk Glass Cannon Eles, but for regular players? Not really, they don't die even if they use their active defense poorly.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    "Heavy damage comps" are rarely used because they don't exist. The highest a glass cannon can do is medium damage.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    They can't. A thief will have a hard time bursting someone for even 50% of their HP (and will usually have to be content with 25-35% as a glass cannon), and Mesmer can only just barely crack 50% now. Mesmer wasn't played since February ever, for a reason.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    If the alternative is to keep increasing powerdip, hurting the game more and more, thats still worth it. Alternatively admit the february megapatch was an unmitigated disaster, and revert everything since and including it.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:
    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    He's just salty, because he's not able to oneshot from stealth while taking all defensive options into a build anymore.

    Yes, because famously Core Grenade Engineer did that. Or Thief, yknow, the famously "all defensive options" core DP thief running assassins signet. Talk about a strawman. If anything it seems to me you were salty back then that you couldnt keep making massive mistakes and survive, so you like the new skilless meta where you can make mistake after mistake and not die.

    With HoT everything went "level-up" giving false illusion that game become more skilled, when in reality it was just "whoever was faster with it's macro and rng procs from traits will win". On top of that all classes had like mostly 1-2 builds "viable", rest was just a pepe fooder(core couldn't even compete with e-speces at all).

    Ah yes, it was a "false illusion", thats why it was when PvP was at its most popular and healthy, and when its esports scene, shortlived as it was, was in its best state. And sure, classes tended to only have 1-2 viable builds, but thats better than the current state of 0-1 builds viable per class, with exactly Revenant as the exception.

    Now after A-net shaved a bit of that powercreep, he thinks we're in some kind of powerdip lmao.

    "Shaved a bit of that powercreep". Mate. The damage now is lower than it has ever been. Thief backstabs for 5k. Grenade Barrage was nerfed for the very first time, because suddenly it did too much damage. That wasnt even the case in core. When grenades are being nerfed for doing too much damage, its pretty clear that we objectively are in massive powerdip.

    Fact, the core wasn't fully balanced either(pre-HoT days), but it was 100x better than HoT and PoF pre-feb patch.

    ... so youre advocating for powerdip, while denying that there was powerdip? That makes no sense. And lets be real here, HoT and PoF pre-feb patch was 10000x better than post-feb patch, thats why the playerbase went into freefall, and we needed community events to try and keep it on life support (And even then its failing. Hell, we have a thread about relaxing Glicko rules because the playerbase is so low now it doesnt function anymore. Once again, thats never happened).

  • Daddy.8125Daddy.8125 Member ✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    Maybe if they're afk Glass Cannon Eles, but for regular players? Not really, they don't die even if they use their active defense poorly.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    "Heavy damage comps" are rarely used because they don't exist. The highest a glass cannon can do is medium damage.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    They can't. A thief will have a hard time bursting someone for even 50% of their HP (and will usually have to be content with 25-35% as a glass cannon), and Mesmer can only just barely crack 50% now. Mesmer wasn't played since February ever, for a reason.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    If the alternative is to keep increasing powerdip, hurting the game more and more, thats still worth it. Alternatively admit the february megapatch was an unmitigated disaster, and revert everything since and including it.

    What you talking? I'm a revenant using the current renegade build and I've had a thief kill me in seconds. And that isn't even as a glass cannon build lol

    You say 5k. Yet there's proof there's a thief build that can do 11k. The reason it isn't used is because they'd get blown up seconds after using it if another enemy showed up.

    The current renegade build has 16922 health. Glass cannon mesmer as 15k hp.

    Your looking at classes that even Ur thief damage can 3 shot.

    If your three shotting people. U aren't "medium damage"..

    The problem is how hard some of these builds can bunker that's the issue. Not the damage output.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    Maybe if they're afk Glass Cannon Eles, but for regular players? Not really, they don't die even if they use their active defense poorly.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    "Heavy damage comps" are rarely used because they don't exist. The highest a glass cannon can do is medium damage.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    They can't. A thief will have a hard time bursting someone for even 50% of their HP (and will usually have to be content with 25-35% as a glass cannon), and Mesmer can only just barely crack 50% now. Mesmer wasn't played since February ever, for a reason.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    If the alternative is to keep increasing powerdip, hurting the game more and more, thats still worth it. Alternatively admit the february megapatch was an unmitigated disaster, and revert everything since and including it.

    What you talking? I'm a revenant using the current renegade build and I've had a thief kill me in seconds. And that isn't even as a glass cannon build lol

    Gonna call hard doubt on that.

    You say 5k. Yet there's proof there's a thief build that can do 11k. The reason it isn't used is because they'd get blown up seconds after using it if another enemy showed up.

    There isnt. One guy did the math, but his math had a number of errors, in reality the max you can do realistically is around 8k with a completely unplayable build that will almost always do a lot less damage because its damage modifiers turn off.

    The current renegade build has 16922 health. Glass cannon mesmer as 15k hp.

    The Renegade build also has an extra 600 armour, and a number of damage reduction traits. On you, the standard 5k backstab turns into a 3k backstab. Hence the hard doubt.

    Your looking at classes that even Ur thief damage can 3 shot.

    Lets ignore that Renegade can't be 3-shot, or even remotely. There is one other issue. Thief can't use backstab more than once per fight, realistically. Almost all of their damage comes from that. They can "3-shot" you in the same sense a Warrior can 3-shot you with 3 eviscerates. In reality, thief does a 5k burst, and then does probably around 2k DPS before running away.

    If your three shotting people. U aren't "medium damage"..

    Good that no one is, and not even remotely.

    The problem is how hard some of these builds can bunker that's the issue. Not the damage output.

    The damage output is the issue, most builds arent even bunkering that much.

  • Daddy.8125Daddy.8125 Member ✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    Maybe if they're afk Glass Cannon Eles, but for regular players? Not really, they don't die even if they use their active defense poorly.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    "Heavy damage comps" are rarely used because they don't exist. The highest a glass cannon can do is medium damage.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    They can't. A thief will have a hard time bursting someone for even 50% of their HP (and will usually have to be content with 25-35% as a glass cannon), and Mesmer can only just barely crack 50% now. Mesmer wasn't played since February ever, for a reason.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    If the alternative is to keep increasing powerdip, hurting the game more and more, thats still worth it. Alternatively admit the february megapatch was an unmitigated disaster, and revert everything since and including it.

    What you talking? I'm a revenant using the current renegade build and I've had a thief kill me in seconds. And that isn't even as a glass cannon build lol

    Gonna call hard doubt on that.

    You say 5k. Yet there's proof there's a thief build that can do 11k. The reason it isn't used is because they'd get blown up seconds after using it if another enemy showed up.

    There isnt. One guy did the math, but his math had a number of errors, in reality the max you can do realistically is around 8k with a completely unplayable build that will almost always do a lot less damage because its damage modifiers turn off.

    The current renegade build has 16922 health. Glass cannon mesmer as 15k hp.

    The Renegade build also has an extra 600 armour, and a number of damage reduction traits. On you, the standard 5k backstab turns into a 3k backstab. Hence the hard doubt.

    Your looking at classes that even Ur thief damage can 3 shot.

    Lets ignore that Renegade can't be 3-shot, or even remotely. There is one other issue. Thief can't use backstab more than once per fight, realistically. Almost all of their damage comes from that. They can "3-shot" you in the same sense a Warrior can 3-shot you with 3 eviscerates. In reality, thief does a 5k burst, and then does probably around 2k DPS before running away.

    If your three shotting people. U aren't "medium damage"..

    Good that no one is, and not even remotely.

    The problem is how hard some of these builds can bunker that's the issue. Not the damage output.

    The damage output is the issue, most builds arent even bunkering that much.

    I've been dropped by thief's very quickly several times there's no hard doubt about it. The games pace feels pretty fast most situations

    We don't need to run around with every proffession 2 shot bursting one another. That's not "skillful". Being able to spam 1 faster then another player just means u can play a flashy game of snap.

    If your butchering people faster then they can react. It's no longer skillful. And it seems like that's what you want in the game which is ridiculous.

    WoW is currently quite litterally bleeding to death currently for introducing the PvP meta you proclaim this game needs.

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    They should nerf the radiuses for Marks and Sand Shades, just like they neutered the radiuses of Symbols.
    And the barrier generation could be nerfed substantially.

    But I disagree with removing even more amulets.

    you are fine with deleting class mechanics which kills more diversity but not amulet which can be replaced by other existing amulet with the same builds, funny how that works

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Scourge was nerfed perfectly, yet for taking healing power it literally converts each point of healing power to barrier. so their f3 grants 2500 barrier with no healing power, when they take 1000 healing power, that barrier is boosted by 1100 points (3600 barrier).
    Since you like that kind of broken coeff, let scrapper's bulwark gyro do the same, so we can poop out all of that 1800+ barrier just for hitting things, and 3k+ barrier every 30s. If your answer is no, then you're being hypocritical.

    Scourge needs barrier coeffs nerfed, possibly even a nerf on general to how much barrier is granted base from that skill. 2500-3600 barrier every 10s is not "fun" or "perfect balance".

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:
    sniff

    You're not even funny at this point. Do you understand, that everything was buffed with HoT release, be it directly by +% here and there and indirectly by new sets? A lot of stuff that wasn't "OP" in core days suddenly've got broken damage in HoT, that's not kitten normal and for sure it wasn't skilled. For memes at HoT release I've created super tanky Herald build(WvW) with over 3k toughness, it freaking died in less than second with even prot to trap DH, you couln't even react to it and you say that it was balanced and healthy? Just because something isn't "abused" in current meta, it doesn't mean it's not "broken" one way or another, how many sleepers you think they are? Look at kitten Mirage, nerfed over and over and over again and someone still finds uber annoying build to deal with, same goes for whole HoT and PoF circus e-speces.
    The PvP back then was "most popular" only because of it "new shiny e-speces" and nothing beside that, it wasn't healthy in the slightest, or you wanna tell me you enjoyed the most engaging bunker Chronomancers? It was the same thing with PoF, "it new shiny thing". It was fast paced and one-shotting felt "good", oh wait, it didn't feel good to just delete players on left and right with few button presses. I've seen players that were trying to use core classes and they've failed and I utterly felt sorry for them.
    On top of that, you're fully aware that there were like 1-2 builds and you defend it? In HoT you had 6 traitlines, tons of skills, runes, sigils, weapons and skills and the best you could use was 1-2 builds? It's a kitten joke to even think that was healthy. In other words with so many possible combinations of choice, you were only capable of "choosing" only one viable build, because anything other than meta was deleted. That's a false illusion of "freedom", keep it up I guess.
    Currently you can see more and more different builds that are capable of dealing with meta, imagine trying that in HoT, impossible.
    The current damage is NOT LOWER in the slightest, it's still high, but within acceptable spectrum. The damage shifted from Core to E-speces and nothing beside that. It's not like Greande Barrage damage wasn't buffed by 20% pre-PoF, right?
    Playerbase went into "freefall", because powecreep was disgusting, PvE may be lively, because ehehe big numbers pewpew mobs faster, but in PvP was kitten circus, I highly doubt there are people that enjoy this kind of "playstyle".
    I can see why people went "nope" after seeing HoT meta, it was funny for few months, but how long are you gonna enjoy PvE combat in PvP environment?
    A-net have failed with designs for e-speces and didn't deliver what they've promised and that's a fact. Most e-speces are "core+", the only exception hilariously was Necromancer, which truly does change your playstyle.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    @Lighter.5631 said:
    you are fine with deleting class mechanics which kills more diversity

    There's no deleting of profession mechanics in my suggestions.
    Both Marks and Sand Shades would still be usable, they'd just require a tiny bit more thinking, instead of the current disgusting "just cover the whole point and blow them off". That's the very same nerf Arenanet did to Symbols.

    And Barrier, aside from not even being a profession-specific mechanic, on Scourge is objectively over-performing.
    A significant shave is necessary.

    amulet which can be replaced by other existing amulet with the same builds

    Removing amulets would not solve the Scourge problems, as they'd simply switch to another Healing Power amulet as well.
    That means, removing amulets would not result in the necessary nerfs to the current over-performance of Scourge, thus making the potential removal of amulets completely pointless.

    That aside, there are builds that work fine with Healing Power amulets, but aren't over-performing.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    sniff

    You're not even funny at this point. Do you understand, that everything was buffed with HoT release, be it directly by +% here and there and indirectly by new sets? A lot of stuff that wasn't "OP" in core days suddenly've got broken damage in HoT, that's not kitten normal and for sure it wasn't skilled. For memes at HoT release I've created super tanky Herald build(WvW) with over 3k toughness, it freaking died in less than second with even prot to trap DH, you couln't even react to it and you say that it was balanced and healthy? Just because something isn't "abused" in current meta, it doesn't mean it's not "broken" one way or another, how many sleepers you think they are? Look at kitten Mirage, nerfed over and over and over again and someone still finds uber annoying build to deal with, same goes for whole HoT and PoF circus e-speces.

    Do you understand thats rubbish? Grenade kit wasnt buffed with HoT, nor did it get any new sets that affected it. It was simply the same weapon, forever. And it wasnt good, because its damage was too low. And along comes the february megapatch, which nerfs the damage so hard, that the grenade kit, an unusuable weapon since core, during which it was only good, not broken, got nerfed 4 times. HoT absolutely was skilled, as I said, its why the esports was at its best during it. If you died in less than a second with protection, then you made it up, trap DH never had that damage. You also could have not walked into the trap. And yes, when you nerf everything, previously nerfed builds come back, thats how powerdip works.

    The PvP back then was "most popular" only because of it "new shiny e-speces" and nothing beside that, it wasn't healthy in the slightest, or you wanna tell me you enjoyed the most engaging bunker Chronomancers? It was the same thing with PoF, "it new shiny thing". It was fast paced and one-shotting felt "good", oh wait, it didn't feel good to just delete players on left and right with few button presses. I've seen players that were trying to use core classes and they've failed and I utterly felt sorry for them.

    A nice hypothesis, but as is ever so often the case with anything you say, completely wrong. New things get people back for a month, maybe two. But then, it starts to fall off. If it wasnt good, it would fall off fast, as you can see with steam charts on other MMOs when they had less than stellar updates. But when it manages to go strong for 2 full years, then clearly it was good, else people would've quit it. No, it wasnt because it was the "shiny new thing", because in 2017 it already wasnt. It was because it was good.

    On top of that, you're fully aware that there were like 1-2 builds and you defend it? In HoT you had 6 traitlines, tons of skills, runes, sigils, weapons and skills and the best you could use was 1-2 builds? It's a kitten joke to even think that was healthy. In other words with so many possible combinations of choice, you were only capable of "choosing" only one viable build, because anything other than meta was deleted. That's a false illusion of "freedom", keep it up I guess.

    1-2 meta builds per class. Technically thats underselling it, a few classes had more, but yeah, thats a pretty good split for meta builds, and if we include off-meta ones, the number shoots up. Remember, were comparing to now, where its 0-1 meta build per class, and fewer off-meta builds too. Gap between meta and off-meta is larger too.

    Currently you can see more and more different builds that are capable of dealing with meta, imagine trying that in HoT, impossible.

    You absolutely do not. You see fewer and less different builds that are capable of dealing with meta. As I said, other than Revenant, every class has 0-1 meta build, and maybe 1 or 2 off-meta builds. Compared to HoTs 1-2 meta builds, and 3+ off-meta builds, thats embarassing.

    The current damage is NOT LOWER in the slightest, it's still high, but within acceptable spectrum. The damage shifted from Core to E-speces and nothing beside that. It's not like Greande Barrage damage wasn't buffed by 20% pre-PoF, right?

    It undeniably is lower. Were talking about 5k backstabs when the previous lowest was around 7k in core. Were talking about Grenade Kit doing too much damage. And the 20% buff pre-PoF was reverted with the february megapatch. After that, it was the exact same weapon set as in core. And despite being a weapon set that just did ok damage in core, in the post-patch meta, due to the massive powerdip and insane lowering of damage, suddenly it did way too much damage. So much that Grenade barrage was nerfed by 50% compared to core, and poison grenade by 60%.

    Playerbase went into "freefall", because powecreep was disgusting, PvE may be lively, because ehehe big numbers pewpew mobs faster, but in PvP was kitten circus, I highly doubt there are people that enjoy this kind of "playstyle".

    Im afraid youre blaming the wrong thing. The playerbase went into freefall not in HoT. Not in PoF. It got lower in both, but at a fairly constant rate you expect. No, we can pinpoint the moment in time in which it went into freefall very precisely. It was ... after the february megapatch. It was because of powerdip. And it doesnt matter if you doubt it, because we know that to be the case. PvP was more popular during high damage metas. If you ask people nowadays if they prefer pre or post-patch meta, over 60% will tell you they preferred pre-patch meta. And thats without including the people who left because the meta is trash now.

    I can see why people went "nope" after seeing HoT meta, it was funny for few months, but how long are you gonna enjoy PvE combat in PvP environment?

    They didnt. HoT PvP went pretty strong. They went nope after seeing the february megapatch.

    A-net have failed with designs for e-speces and didn't deliver what they've promised and that's a fact. Most e-speces are "core+", the only exception hilariously was Necromancer, which truly does change your playstyle.

    And thats besides the point.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    Maybe if they're afk Glass Cannon Eles, but for regular players? Not really, they don't die even if they use their active defense poorly.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    "Heavy damage comps" are rarely used because they don't exist. The highest a glass cannon can do is medium damage.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    They can't. A thief will have a hard time bursting someone for even 50% of their HP (and will usually have to be content with 25-35% as a glass cannon), and Mesmer can only just barely crack 50% now. Mesmer wasn't played since February ever, for a reason.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    If the alternative is to keep increasing powerdip, hurting the game more and more, thats still worth it. Alternatively admit the february megapatch was an unmitigated disaster, and revert everything since and including it.

    What you talking? I'm a revenant using the current renegade build and I've had a thief kill me in seconds. And that isn't even as a glass cannon build lol

    Gonna call hard doubt on that.

    You say 5k. Yet there's proof there's a thief build that can do 11k. The reason it isn't used is because they'd get blown up seconds after using it if another enemy showed up.

    There isnt. One guy did the math, but his math had a number of errors, in reality the max you can do realistically is around 8k with a completely unplayable build that will almost always do a lot less damage because its damage modifiers turn off.

    The current renegade build has 16922 health. Glass cannon mesmer as 15k hp.

    The Renegade build also has an extra 600 armour, and a number of damage reduction traits. On you, the standard 5k backstab turns into a 3k backstab. Hence the hard doubt.

    Your looking at classes that even Ur thief damage can 3 shot.

    Lets ignore that Renegade can't be 3-shot, or even remotely. There is one other issue. Thief can't use backstab more than once per fight, realistically. Almost all of their damage comes from that. They can "3-shot" you in the same sense a Warrior can 3-shot you with 3 eviscerates. In reality, thief does a 5k burst, and then does probably around 2k DPS before running away.

    If your three shotting people. U aren't "medium damage"..

    Good that no one is, and not even remotely.

    The problem is how hard some of these builds can bunker that's the issue. Not the damage output.

    The damage output is the issue, most builds arent even bunkering that much.

    I've been dropped by thief's very quickly several times there's no hard doubt about it. The games pace feels pretty fast most situations

    Once again, with your build, Im gonna call doubt. Even the glassiest thief, fighting you when youre not fighting back, will probably need 10+ seconds to kill you. If you fight back, they cant kill you at all. So your idea of "being dropped by thieves quickly" is nonsense. Unless you meant to add "when I was on 20% hp". The game pace feels glacially slow in all situations. CMC even mentioned it in the patch notes as their big problem.

    We don't need to run around with every proffession 2 shot bursting one another. That's not "skillful". Being able to spam 1 faster then another player just means u can play a flashy game of snap.

    Thats the beauty of it though. That isnt what happened. What we had was the threat of being 2-touched. But you rarely ever got 2-touched. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute. Its much like fighting games. High damage forces you to play as cleanly as possible with as few mistakes as possible, if you make a mistake, you eat a lot of damage. That is skillful. Its why fighting games are such a hard genre. Now? You can make mistake after mistake, since damage is so low, you cant really be punished for that. And since damage is so low, you just spam off cooldown. That is indeed skillless.

    If your butchering people faster then they can react. It's no longer skillful. And it seems like that's what you want in the game which is ridiculous.

    Again, didnt really happen, the threat was there, but it was just a threat.

    WoW is currently quite litterally bleeding to death currently for introducing the PvP meta you proclaim this game needs.

    I dont play WoW, but Im gonna go out on a limb and guess that youre completely misrepresenting the situation. Aaaand its not. Seems the general consensus is that the meta isnt ideal, but its better than the low-damage tank meta they had before by a mile. Gee, I wonder why.

    Plus, yknow, GW2 PvP is currently quite literally bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta you proclaimed this game needs.

  • Daddy.8125Daddy.8125 Member ✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    Maybe if they're afk Glass Cannon Eles, but for regular players? Not really, they don't die even if they use their active defense poorly.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    "Heavy damage comps" are rarely used because they don't exist. The highest a glass cannon can do is medium damage.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    They can't. A thief will have a hard time bursting someone for even 50% of their HP (and will usually have to be content with 25-35% as a glass cannon), and Mesmer can only just barely crack 50% now. Mesmer wasn't played since February ever, for a reason.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    If the alternative is to keep increasing powerdip, hurting the game more and more, thats still worth it. Alternatively admit the february megapatch was an unmitigated disaster, and revert everything since and including it.

    What you talking? I'm a revenant using the current renegade build and I've had a thief kill me in seconds. And that isn't even as a glass cannon build lol

    Gonna call hard doubt on that.

    You say 5k. Yet there's proof there's a thief build that can do 11k. The reason it isn't used is because they'd get blown up seconds after using it if another enemy showed up.

    There isnt. One guy did the math, but his math had a number of errors, in reality the max you can do realistically is around 8k with a completely unplayable build that will almost always do a lot less damage because its damage modifiers turn off.

    The current renegade build has 16922 health. Glass cannon mesmer as 15k hp.

    The Renegade build also has an extra 600 armour, and a number of damage reduction traits. On you, the standard 5k backstab turns into a 3k backstab. Hence the hard doubt.

    Your looking at classes that even Ur thief damage can 3 shot.

    Lets ignore that Renegade can't be 3-shot, or even remotely. There is one other issue. Thief can't use backstab more than once per fight, realistically. Almost all of their damage comes from that. They can "3-shot" you in the same sense a Warrior can 3-shot you with 3 eviscerates. In reality, thief does a 5k burst, and then does probably around 2k DPS before running away.

    If your three shotting people. U aren't "medium damage"..

    Good that no one is, and not even remotely.

    The problem is how hard some of these builds can bunker that's the issue. Not the damage output.

    The damage output is the issue, most builds arent even bunkering that much.

    I've been dropped by thief's very quickly several times there's no hard doubt about it. The games pace feels pretty fast most situations

    Once again, with your build, Im gonna call doubt. Even the glassiest thief, fighting you when youre not fighting back, will probably need 10+ seconds to kill you. If you fight back, they cant kill you at all. So your idea of "being dropped by thieves quickly" is nonsense. Unless you meant to add "when I was on 20% hp". The game pace feels glacially slow in all situations. CMC even mentioned it in the patch notes as their big problem.

    We don't need to run around with every proffession 2 shot bursting one another. That's not "skillful". Being able to spam 1 faster then another player just means u can play a flashy game of snap.

    Thats the beauty of it though. That isnt what happened. What we had was the threat of being 2-touched. But you rarely ever got 2-touched. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute. Its much like fighting games. High damage forces you to play as cleanly as possible with as few mistakes as possible, if you make a mistake, you eat a lot of damage. That is skillful. Its why fighting games are such a hard genre. Now? You can make mistake after mistake, since damage is so low, you cant really be punished for that. And since damage is so low, you just spam off cooldown. That is indeed skillless.

    If your butchering people faster then they can react. It's no longer skillful. And it seems like that's what you want in the game which is ridiculous.

    Again, didnt really happen, the threat was there, but it was just a threat.

    WoW is currently quite litterally bleeding to death currently for introducing the PvP meta you proclaim this game needs.

    I dont play WoW, but Im gonna go out on a limb and guess that youre completely misrepresenting the situation. Aaaand its not. Seems the general consensus is that the meta isnt ideal, but its better than the low-damage tank meta they had before by a mile. Gee, I wonder why.

    Plus, yknow, GW2 PvP is currently quite literally bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta you proclaimed this game needs.

    Didn't say the game needed the current meta. And no it isn't bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta.

    If you believe this games biggest reason for quitting is it's PvP meta your wrong I'm afraid.

    In WoW the reason the PvP meta is killing the game is because BiS gearing for PvE content is currently earnt by PVP.

    I am not misrepresenting the problem. Lol. WoW on SL launch was heavily over the Top. As the characters were balanced with borrowed power in mind. Borrowed power which hadn't been unlocked.

    There's a litteral video taking the p*ss out of WoWs SL pvp because of how one shotty it is.

    And my build is the build on metabattle lol. I dunno how far up the PvP ladder you are. But I'm afraid your gonna have to accept the fact that yea maybe Ur correct under perfectly played circumstances these classes aren't doing this.

    Take a silver/gold game and these players aren't playing perfectly. And mistakes or lack of utilising defensives properly will mean u die faster.

    And no. WoW has a certain population of the playerbase who like the current what they call "fast meta". And it isn't. WoWs lead Dev went on call with one of the bigger wow players and said it's OTT but they don't want to overnerf it.

    WoW isn't "fast meta" it's become twitch reaction based. Something a mmorpg litterally should NEVER be introducing.

    Go look up WoW Boomkin PvP convoke the spirits.

    This ability fires 16 spells at full damage over 3 seconds at 0 resource usuage.. you can also manage it as it won't target CC'd players so can cc one and then convoke the other for a strong ST burst.

    Look up the 3 rogue Arena team.

    And definitely look up the paladin + Boomkin combo.

    This isn't misrepresented. Maybe that's how you want a game to look like. But insta dying before even reaching a target isn't fun.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    Maybe if they're afk Glass Cannon Eles, but for regular players? Not really, they don't die even if they use their active defense poorly.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    "Heavy damage comps" are rarely used because they don't exist. The highest a glass cannon can do is medium damage.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    They can't. A thief will have a hard time bursting someone for even 50% of their HP (and will usually have to be content with 25-35% as a glass cannon), and Mesmer can only just barely crack 50% now. Mesmer wasn't played since February ever, for a reason.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    If the alternative is to keep increasing powerdip, hurting the game more and more, thats still worth it. Alternatively admit the february megapatch was an unmitigated disaster, and revert everything since and including it.

    What you talking? I'm a revenant using the current renegade build and I've had a thief kill me in seconds. And that isn't even as a glass cannon build lol

    Gonna call hard doubt on that.

    You say 5k. Yet there's proof there's a thief build that can do 11k. The reason it isn't used is because they'd get blown up seconds after using it if another enemy showed up.

    There isnt. One guy did the math, but his math had a number of errors, in reality the max you can do realistically is around 8k with a completely unplayable build that will almost always do a lot less damage because its damage modifiers turn off.

    The current renegade build has 16922 health. Glass cannon mesmer as 15k hp.

    The Renegade build also has an extra 600 armour, and a number of damage reduction traits. On you, the standard 5k backstab turns into a 3k backstab. Hence the hard doubt.

    Your looking at classes that even Ur thief damage can 3 shot.

    Lets ignore that Renegade can't be 3-shot, or even remotely. There is one other issue. Thief can't use backstab more than once per fight, realistically. Almost all of their damage comes from that. They can "3-shot" you in the same sense a Warrior can 3-shot you with 3 eviscerates. In reality, thief does a 5k burst, and then does probably around 2k DPS before running away.

    If your three shotting people. U aren't "medium damage"..

    Good that no one is, and not even remotely.

    The problem is how hard some of these builds can bunker that's the issue. Not the damage output.

    The damage output is the issue, most builds arent even bunkering that much.

    I've been dropped by thief's very quickly several times there's no hard doubt about it. The games pace feels pretty fast most situations

    Once again, with your build, Im gonna call doubt. Even the glassiest thief, fighting you when youre not fighting back, will probably need 10+ seconds to kill you. If you fight back, they cant kill you at all. So your idea of "being dropped by thieves quickly" is nonsense. Unless you meant to add "when I was on 20% hp". The game pace feels glacially slow in all situations. CMC even mentioned it in the patch notes as their big problem.

    We don't need to run around with every proffession 2 shot bursting one another. That's not "skillful". Being able to spam 1 faster then another player just means u can play a flashy game of snap.

    Thats the beauty of it though. That isnt what happened. What we had was the threat of being 2-touched. But you rarely ever got 2-touched. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute. Its much like fighting games. High damage forces you to play as cleanly as possible with as few mistakes as possible, if you make a mistake, you eat a lot of damage. That is skillful. Its why fighting games are such a hard genre. Now? You can make mistake after mistake, since damage is so low, you cant really be punished for that. And since damage is so low, you just spam off cooldown. That is indeed skillless.

    If your butchering people faster then they can react. It's no longer skillful. And it seems like that's what you want in the game which is ridiculous.

    Again, didnt really happen, the threat was there, but it was just a threat.

    WoW is currently quite litterally bleeding to death currently for introducing the PvP meta you proclaim this game needs.

    I dont play WoW, but Im gonna go out on a limb and guess that youre completely misrepresenting the situation. Aaaand its not. Seems the general consensus is that the meta isnt ideal, but its better than the low-damage tank meta they had before by a mile. Gee, I wonder why.

    Plus, yknow, GW2 PvP is currently quite literally bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta you proclaimed this game needs.

    Didn't say the game needed the current meta. And no it isn't bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta.

    If you believe this games biggest reason for quitting is it's PvP meta your wrong I'm afraid.

    I said the games PvP, not the game in general.

    In WoW the reason the PvP meta is killing the game is because BiS gearing for PvE content is currently earnt by PVP.

    Which is an issue with the design, not the PvP inherently.

    I am not misrepresenting the problem. Lol. WoW on SL launch was heavily over the Top. As the characters were balanced with borrowed power in mind. Borrowed power which hadn't been unlocked.

    There's a litteral video taking the p*ss out of WoWs SL pvp because of how one shotty it is.

    And there are many more of people enjoying it, and many more of people dunking on the low damage metas before because of how trash they are.

    And my build is the build on metabattle lol. I dunno how far up the PvP ladder you are. But I'm afraid your gonna have to accept the fact that yea maybe Ur correct under perfectly played circumstances these classes aren't doing this.

    Again, this isnt a matter of gameplay. Its straight up not possible. If you're playing the metabattle renegade build, backstab will hit you for around 3k-3.5k. Then, his highest damage skill will be shadowshot, at at most 2k a pop, and he can use it twice. And then he just has autoattacks, which hits for around 2.2k over 1.68 seconds. So if within 3 seconds, he can barely take you down to 50% if you do literally nothing, how is it killing you "within seconds".

    Take a silver/gold game and these players aren't playing perfectly. And mistakes or lack of utilising defensives properly will mean u die faster.

    They used to mean that. Nowadays, they dont. You can make mistakes as you wont, you still wont really die outside of being outnumbered.

    And no. WoW has a certain population of the playerbase who like the current what they call "fast meta". And it isn't. WoWs lead Dev went on call with one of the bigger wow players and said it's OTT but they don't want to overnerf it.

    WoW isn't "fast meta" it's become twitch reaction based. Something a mmorpg litterally should NEVER be introducing.

    If that is the case, its an easy fix. But what I do know, is that the by far most hated, most unpopular metas in WoW are the low-damage ones like we have in GW2 right now. The ones considered the most skillless.

    Go look up WoW Boomkin PvP convoke the spirits.

    This ability fires 16 spells at full damage over 3 seconds at 0 resource usuage.. you can also manage it as it won't target CC'd players so can cc one and then convoke the other for a strong ST burst.

    Look up the 3 rogue Arena team.

    The team that is considered so bad, its not even tiered? Great example.

  • Daddy.8125Daddy.8125 Member ✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    Maybe if they're afk Glass Cannon Eles, but for regular players? Not really, they don't die even if they use their active defense poorly.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    "Heavy damage comps" are rarely used because they don't exist. The highest a glass cannon can do is medium damage.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    They can't. A thief will have a hard time bursting someone for even 50% of their HP (and will usually have to be content with 25-35% as a glass cannon), and Mesmer can only just barely crack 50% now. Mesmer wasn't played since February ever, for a reason.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    If the alternative is to keep increasing powerdip, hurting the game more and more, thats still worth it. Alternatively admit the february megapatch was an unmitigated disaster, and revert everything since and including it.

    What you talking? I'm a revenant using the current renegade build and I've had a thief kill me in seconds. And that isn't even as a glass cannon build lol

    Gonna call hard doubt on that.

    You say 5k. Yet there's proof there's a thief build that can do 11k. The reason it isn't used is because they'd get blown up seconds after using it if another enemy showed up.

    There isnt. One guy did the math, but his math had a number of errors, in reality the max you can do realistically is around 8k with a completely unplayable build that will almost always do a lot less damage because its damage modifiers turn off.

    The current renegade build has 16922 health. Glass cannon mesmer as 15k hp.

    The Renegade build also has an extra 600 armour, and a number of damage reduction traits. On you, the standard 5k backstab turns into a 3k backstab. Hence the hard doubt.

    Your looking at classes that even Ur thief damage can 3 shot.

    Lets ignore that Renegade can't be 3-shot, or even remotely. There is one other issue. Thief can't use backstab more than once per fight, realistically. Almost all of their damage comes from that. They can "3-shot" you in the same sense a Warrior can 3-shot you with 3 eviscerates. In reality, thief does a 5k burst, and then does probably around 2k DPS before running away.

    If your three shotting people. U aren't "medium damage"..

    Good that no one is, and not even remotely.

    The problem is how hard some of these builds can bunker that's the issue. Not the damage output.

    The damage output is the issue, most builds arent even bunkering that much.

    I've been dropped by thief's very quickly several times there's no hard doubt about it. The games pace feels pretty fast most situations

    Once again, with your build, Im gonna call doubt. Even the glassiest thief, fighting you when youre not fighting back, will probably need 10+ seconds to kill you. If you fight back, they cant kill you at all. So your idea of "being dropped by thieves quickly" is nonsense. Unless you meant to add "when I was on 20% hp". The game pace feels glacially slow in all situations. CMC even mentioned it in the patch notes as their big problem.

    We don't need to run around with every proffession 2 shot bursting one another. That's not "skillful". Being able to spam 1 faster then another player just means u can play a flashy game of snap.

    Thats the beauty of it though. That isnt what happened. What we had was the threat of being 2-touched. But you rarely ever got 2-touched. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute. Its much like fighting games. High damage forces you to play as cleanly as possible with as few mistakes as possible, if you make a mistake, you eat a lot of damage. That is skillful. Its why fighting games are such a hard genre. Now? You can make mistake after mistake, since damage is so low, you cant really be punished for that. And since damage is so low, you just spam off cooldown. That is indeed skillless.

    If your butchering people faster then they can react. It's no longer skillful. And it seems like that's what you want in the game which is ridiculous.

    Again, didnt really happen, the threat was there, but it was just a threat.

    WoW is currently quite litterally bleeding to death currently for introducing the PvP meta you proclaim this game needs.

    I dont play WoW, but Im gonna go out on a limb and guess that youre completely misrepresenting the situation. Aaaand its not. Seems the general consensus is that the meta isnt ideal, but its better than the low-damage tank meta they had before by a mile. Gee, I wonder why.

    Plus, yknow, GW2 PvP is currently quite literally bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta you proclaimed this game needs.

    Didn't say the game needed the current meta. And no it isn't bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta.

    If you believe this games biggest reason for quitting is it's PvP meta your wrong I'm afraid.

    I said the games PvP, not the game in general.

    In WoW the reason the PvP meta is killing the game is because BiS gearing for PvE content is currently earnt by PVP.

    Which is an issue with the design, not the PvP inherently.

    I am not misrepresenting the problem. Lol. WoW on SL launch was heavily over the Top. As the characters were balanced with borrowed power in mind. Borrowed power which hadn't been unlocked.

    There's a litteral video taking the p*ss out of WoWs SL pvp because of how one shotty it is.

    And there are many more of people enjoying it, and many more of people dunking on the low damage metas before because of how trash they are.

    And my build is the build on metabattle lol. I dunno how far up the PvP ladder you are. But I'm afraid your gonna have to accept the fact that yea maybe Ur correct under perfectly played circumstances these classes aren't doing this.

    Again, this isnt a matter of gameplay. Its straight up not possible. If you're playing the metabattle renegade build, backstab will hit you for around 3k-3.5k. Then, his highest damage skill will be shadowshot, at at most 2k a pop, and he can use it twice. And then he just has autoattacks, which hits for around 2.2k over 1.68 seconds. So if within 3 seconds, he can barely take you down to 50% if you do literally nothing, how is it killing you "within seconds".

    Take a silver/gold game and these players aren't playing perfectly. And mistakes or lack of utilising defensives properly will mean u die faster.

    They used to mean that. Nowadays, they dont. You can make mistakes as you wont, you still wont really die outside of being outnumbered.

    And no. WoW has a certain population of the playerbase who like the current what they call "fast meta". And it isn't. WoWs lead Dev went on call with one of the bigger wow players and said it's OTT but they don't want to overnerf it.

    WoW isn't "fast meta" it's become twitch reaction based. Something a mmorpg litterally should NEVER be introducing.

    If that is the case, its an easy fix. But what I do know, is that the by far most hated, most unpopular metas in WoW are the low-damage ones like we have in GW2 right now. The ones considered the most skillless.

    Go look up WoW Boomkin PvP convoke the spirits.

    This ability fires 16 spells at full damage over 3 seconds at 0 resource usuage.. you can also manage it as it won't target CC'd players so can cc one and then convoke the other for a strong ST burst.

    Look up the 3 rogue Arena team.

    The team that is considered so bad, its not even tiered? Great example.

    Really? 61% profit loss, 50% player loss, forums on litteral fire?

    Do u read arena forums on wow? Because I do.

    8.3 was a "fast meta". SL is a twitch reaction 1 shot burst roulette. The vast majority think it needs fixing. And blizzard are also addressing it. Just not fast enough.

    Ur looking at the wrong one then. There's a 3 rogue combo in leaderboards for 3v3s currently.

    I'd like to say yeah the slow metas were disliked in wow. But that's because wow goes one extreme to another.

    Fights in gw2 are like 20 seconds long in most cases that I've experienced. While in wow Ur looking at 10 minute duals in wow.

    Wows "slow meta" which was dampening
    And it was 1000x worse then gw2 is currently.

    I'm a wow player lol. If I felt the game was that slow paced. I'd likely notice given the fact I experience both.

    And yes gw2 is slower then WoW that's for sure. But this games no where near WoWs slow meta lol

    WoWs arena system basically nullifies you over time passively.. any competitive player is going to hate a random out of the player control system stripping their characters over time.

    8.3 fixed the issue. Players were dying much faster. 9.0 only needed to retain 8.3 speeds without the RNG system. But instead it tripled it.

    No ones saying gw2 PvP is perfect. Spoiler no games is. But it ain't that bad either. And removing bunker builds gets what u want anyway.

    Less survivability = less dmg needed to die.

    If 5k does 40% of a person's go after the nerfs, then it's the same as if 10k does 40% of the other person's health. Nerfing sustain will ultimately achieve the same effect Ur after.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    I think one of the issues is that scourge's barrier is an aoe. I mean if barrier is supposed to be scourge's shroud, then I shouldn't be shareable, just like the other specs of the class. Or if it was willingly designed to be shareable then it should be less efficient than core/reaper shroud in terms of raw "extra life".

    On your first point: if barrier was designed as necro shroud, why do other classes have barrier application as well? Wouldn't that be an absolute design failure, as scourge would have nothing that makes it unique?

    On your second point: you do notice that barrier is completely different from shroud?
    It is removed after 5 seconds and doesn't give you dmg reduction.

  • Daddy.8125Daddy.8125 Member ✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    Maybe if they're afk Glass Cannon Eles, but for regular players? Not really, they don't die even if they use their active defense poorly.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    "Heavy damage comps" are rarely used because they don't exist. The highest a glass cannon can do is medium damage.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    They can't. A thief will have a hard time bursting someone for even 50% of their HP (and will usually have to be content with 25-35% as a glass cannon), and Mesmer can only just barely crack 50% now. Mesmer wasn't played since February ever, for a reason.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    If the alternative is to keep increasing powerdip, hurting the game more and more, thats still worth it. Alternatively admit the february megapatch was an unmitigated disaster, and revert everything since and including it.

    What you talking? I'm a revenant using the current renegade build and I've had a thief kill me in seconds. And that isn't even as a glass cannon build lol

    Gonna call hard doubt on that.

    You say 5k. Yet there's proof there's a thief build that can do 11k. The reason it isn't used is because they'd get blown up seconds after using it if another enemy showed up.

    There isnt. One guy did the math, but his math had a number of errors, in reality the max you can do realistically is around 8k with a completely unplayable build that will almost always do a lot less damage because its damage modifiers turn off.

    The current renegade build has 16922 health. Glass cannon mesmer as 15k hp.

    The Renegade build also has an extra 600 armour, and a number of damage reduction traits. On you, the standard 5k backstab turns into a 3k backstab. Hence the hard doubt.

    Your looking at classes that even Ur thief damage can 3 shot.

    Lets ignore that Renegade can't be 3-shot, or even remotely. There is one other issue. Thief can't use backstab more than once per fight, realistically. Almost all of their damage comes from that. They can "3-shot" you in the same sense a Warrior can 3-shot you with 3 eviscerates. In reality, thief does a 5k burst, and then does probably around 2k DPS before running away.

    If your three shotting people. U aren't "medium damage"..

    Good that no one is, and not even remotely.

    The problem is how hard some of these builds can bunker that's the issue. Not the damage output.

    The damage output is the issue, most builds arent even bunkering that much.

    I've been dropped by thief's very quickly several times there's no hard doubt about it. The games pace feels pretty fast most situations

    Once again, with your build, Im gonna call doubt. Even the glassiest thief, fighting you when youre not fighting back, will probably need 10+ seconds to kill you. If you fight back, they cant kill you at all. So your idea of "being dropped by thieves quickly" is nonsense. Unless you meant to add "when I was on 20% hp". The game pace feels glacially slow in all situations. CMC even mentioned it in the patch notes as their big problem.

    We don't need to run around with every proffession 2 shot bursting one another. That's not "skillful". Being able to spam 1 faster then another player just means u can play a flashy game of snap.

    Thats the beauty of it though. That isnt what happened. What we had was the threat of being 2-touched. But you rarely ever got 2-touched. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute. Its much like fighting games. High damage forces you to play as cleanly as possible with as few mistakes as possible, if you make a mistake, you eat a lot of damage. That is skillful. Its why fighting games are such a hard genre. Now? You can make mistake after mistake, since damage is so low, you cant really be punished for that. And since damage is so low, you just spam off cooldown. That is indeed skillless.

    If your butchering people faster then they can react. It's no longer skillful. And it seems like that's what you want in the game which is ridiculous.

    Again, didnt really happen, the threat was there, but it was just a threat.

    WoW is currently quite litterally bleeding to death currently for introducing the PvP meta you proclaim this game needs.

    I dont play WoW, but Im gonna go out on a limb and guess that youre completely misrepresenting the situation. Aaaand its not. Seems the general consensus is that the meta isnt ideal, but its better than the low-damage tank meta they had before by a mile. Gee, I wonder why.

    Plus, yknow, GW2 PvP is currently quite literally bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta you proclaimed this game needs.

    Didn't say the game needed the current meta. And no it isn't bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta.

    If you believe this games biggest reason for quitting is it's PvP meta your wrong I'm afraid.

    I said the games PvP, not the game in general.

    In WoW the reason the PvP meta is killing the game is because BiS gearing for PvE content is currently earnt by PVP.

    Which is an issue with the design, not the PvP inherently.

    I am not misrepresenting the problem. Lol. WoW on SL launch was heavily over the Top. As the characters were balanced with borrowed power in mind. Borrowed power which hadn't been unlocked.

    There's a litteral video taking the p*ss out of WoWs SL pvp because of how one shotty it is.

    And there are many more of people enjoying it, and many more of people dunking on the low damage metas before because of how trash they are.

    And my build is the build on metabattle lol. I dunno how far up the PvP ladder you are. But I'm afraid your gonna have to accept the fact that yea maybe Ur correct under perfectly played circumstances these classes aren't doing this.

    Again, this isnt a matter of gameplay. Its straight up not possible. If you're playing the metabattle renegade build, backstab will hit you for around 3k-3.5k. Then, his highest damage skill will be shadowshot, at at most 2k a pop, and he can use it twice. And then he just has autoattacks, which hits for around 2.2k over 1.68 seconds. So if within 3 seconds, he can barely take you down to 50% if you do literally nothing, how is it killing you "within seconds".

    Take a silver/gold game and these players aren't playing perfectly. And mistakes or lack of utilising defensives properly will mean u die faster.

    They used to mean that. Nowadays, they dont. You can make mistakes as you wont, you still wont really die outside of being outnumbered.

    And no. WoW has a certain population of the playerbase who like the current what they call "fast meta". And it isn't. WoWs lead Dev went on call with one of the bigger wow players and said it's OTT but they don't want to overnerf it.

    WoW isn't "fast meta" it's become twitch reaction based. Something a mmorpg litterally should NEVER be introducing.

    If that is the case, its an easy fix. But what I do know, is that the by far most hated, most unpopular metas in WoW are the low-damage ones like we have in GW2 right now. The ones considered the most skillless.

    Go look up WoW Boomkin PvP convoke the spirits.

    This ability fires 16 spells at full damage over 3 seconds at 0 resource usuage.. you can also manage it as it won't target CC'd players so can cc one and then convoke the other for a strong ST burst.

    Look up the 3 rogue Arena team.

    The team that is considered so bad, its not even tiered? Great example.

    Really? 61% profit loss, 50% player loss, forums on litteral fire?

    Do u read arena forums on wow? Because I do.

    8.3 was a "fast meta". SL is a twitch reaction 1 shot burst roulette. The vast majority think it needs fixing. And blizzard are also addressing it. Just not fast enough.

    Ur looking at the wrong one then. There's a 3 rogue combo in leaderboards for 3v3s currently.

    I'd like to say yeah the slow metas were disliked in wow. But that's because wow goes one extreme to another.

    Fights in gw2 are like 20 seconds long in most cases that I've experienced. While in wow Ur looking at 10 minute duals in wow.

    Wows "slow meta" which was dampening
    And it was 1000x worse then gw2 is currently.

    I'm a wow player lol. If I felt the game was that slow paced. I'd likely notice given the fact I experience both.

    And yes gw2 is slower then WoW that's for sure. But this games no where near WoWs slow meta lol

    WoWs arena system basically nullifies you over time passively.. any competitive player is going to hate a random out of the player control system stripping their characters over time.

    8.3 fixed the issue. Players were dying much faster. 9.0 only needed to retain 8.3 speeds without the RNG system. But instead it tripled it.

    No ones saying gw2 PvP is perfect. Spoiler no games is. But it ain't that bad either. And removing bunker builds gets what u want anyway.

    Less survivability = less dmg needed to die.

    If 5k does 40% of a person's go after the nerfs, then it's the same as if 10k does 40% of the other person's health. Nerfing sustain will ultimately achieve the same effect Ur after.

    Fast metas mean these proffessions meta builds need to be their glass cannon builds. So removing the bunker builds in favour of pushing power based builds to the top is a way to achieve that..

    U can't have a fast meta when bunker builds and condi damagers are the leading meta. Because neither of those things are built for fast kills.

    You need to be a power stacking build. And it to be the norm. If every player is a glass cannon you will nuke each other into oblivion. So nerfing scourge and things will bring that forth

    This was susposed to be a edit. I guess I pressed the wrong button

  • Lucentfir.7430Lucentfir.7430 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    Maybe if they're afk Glass Cannon Eles, but for regular players? Not really, they don't die even if they use their active defense poorly.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    "Heavy damage comps" are rarely used because they don't exist. The highest a glass cannon can do is medium damage.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    They can't. A thief will have a hard time bursting someone for even 50% of their HP (and will usually have to be content with 25-35% as a glass cannon), and Mesmer can only just barely crack 50% now. Mesmer wasn't played since February ever, for a reason.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    If the alternative is to keep increasing powerdip, hurting the game more and more, thats still worth it. Alternatively admit the february megapatch was an unmitigated disaster, and revert everything since and including it.

    What you talking? I'm a revenant using the current renegade build and I've had a thief kill me in seconds. And that isn't even as a glass cannon build lol

    Gonna call hard doubt on that.

    You say 5k. Yet there's proof there's a thief build that can do 11k. The reason it isn't used is because they'd get blown up seconds after using it if another enemy showed up.

    There isnt. One guy did the math, but his math had a number of errors, in reality the max you can do realistically is around 8k with a completely unplayable build that will almost always do a lot less damage because its damage modifiers turn off.

    The current renegade build has 16922 health. Glass cannon mesmer as 15k hp.

    The Renegade build also has an extra 600 armour, and a number of damage reduction traits. On you, the standard 5k backstab turns into a 3k backstab. Hence the hard doubt.

    Your looking at classes that even Ur thief damage can 3 shot.

    Lets ignore that Renegade can't be 3-shot, or even remotely. There is one other issue. Thief can't use backstab more than once per fight, realistically. Almost all of their damage comes from that. They can "3-shot" you in the same sense a Warrior can 3-shot you with 3 eviscerates. In reality, thief does a 5k burst, and then does probably around 2k DPS before running away.

    If your three shotting people. U aren't "medium damage"..

    Good that no one is, and not even remotely.

    The problem is how hard some of these builds can bunker that's the issue. Not the damage output.

    The damage output is the issue, most builds arent even bunkering that much.

    I've been dropped by thief's very quickly several times there's no hard doubt about it. The games pace feels pretty fast most situations

    Once again, with your build, Im gonna call doubt. Even the glassiest thief, fighting you when youre not fighting back, will probably need 10+ seconds to kill you. If you fight back, they cant kill you at all. So your idea of "being dropped by thieves quickly" is nonsense. Unless you meant to add "when I was on 20% hp". The game pace feels glacially slow in all situations. CMC even mentioned it in the patch notes as their big problem.

    We don't need to run around with every proffession 2 shot bursting one another. That's not "skillful". Being able to spam 1 faster then another player just means u can play a flashy game of snap.

    Thats the beauty of it though. That isnt what happened. What we had was the threat of being 2-touched. But you rarely ever got 2-touched. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute. Its much like fighting games. High damage forces you to play as cleanly as possible with as few mistakes as possible, if you make a mistake, you eat a lot of damage. That is skillful. Its why fighting games are such a hard genre. Now? You can make mistake after mistake, since damage is so low, you cant really be punished for that. And since damage is so low, you just spam off cooldown. That is indeed skillless.

    If your butchering people faster then they can react. It's no longer skillful. And it seems like that's what you want in the game which is ridiculous.

    Again, didnt really happen, the threat was there, but it was just a threat.

    WoW is currently quite litterally bleeding to death currently for introducing the PvP meta you proclaim this game needs.

    I dont play WoW, but Im gonna go out on a limb and guess that youre completely misrepresenting the situation. Aaaand its not. Seems the general consensus is that the meta isnt ideal, but its better than the low-damage tank meta they had before by a mile. Gee, I wonder why.

    Plus, yknow, GW2 PvP is currently quite literally bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta you proclaimed this game needs.

    Didn't say the game needed the current meta. And no it isn't bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta.

    If you believe this games biggest reason for quitting is it's PvP meta your wrong I'm afraid.

    In WoW the reason the PvP meta is killing the game is because BiS gearing for PvE content is currently earnt by PVP.

    I am not misrepresenting the problem. Lol. WoW on SL launch was heavily over the Top. As the characters were balanced with borrowed power in mind. Borrowed power which hadn't been unlocked.

    There's a litteral video taking the p*ss out of WoWs SL pvp because of how one shotty it is.

    And my build is the build on metabattle lol. I dunno how far up the PvP ladder you are. But I'm afraid your gonna have to accept the fact that yea maybe Ur correct under perfectly played circumstances these classes aren't doing this.

    Take a silver/gold game and these players aren't playing perfectly. And mistakes or lack of utilising defensives properly will mean u die faster.

    And no. WoW has a certain population of the playerbase who like the current what they call "fast meta". And it isn't. WoWs lead Dev went on call with one of the bigger wow players and said it's OTT but they don't want to overnerf it.

    WoW isn't "fast meta" it's become twitch reaction based. Something a mmorpg litterally should NEVER be introducing.

    Go look up WoW Boomkin PvP convoke the spirits.

    This ability fires 16 spells at full damage over 3 seconds at 0 resource usuage.. you can also manage it as it won't target CC'd players so can cc one and then convoke the other for a strong ST burst.

    Look up the 3 rogue Arena team.

    And definitely look up the paladin + Boomkin combo.

    This isn't misrepresented. Maybe that's how you want a game to look like. But insta dying before even reaching a target isn't fun.

    Why are you being dishonest? WoW bleeding players isn't because of PvP meta, as a mater of fact it's actually one of the best things going for it right now in the expansion. Fun fact for people that don't play WoW they purposefully neutered the reward output for PVE/M+/Raids(and even nerfed gear level to boot) so you get less loot overall for completing them, which is why the valor system got put in place(even though it's pretty tedious if you're doing them through callings). PVP gearing on the other hand is the best source for gear right now because they have a vendor you can buy gear from and upgrade, for honor(currency), then if you want to push for higher end gear you do rated and get rated pieces of gear which you can upgrade by pushing your rating via rated Arena/Battlegrounds and using both honor and another currency from ranked (conquest).

    Another reason why WoW is bleeding players is because there's nothing to do for the next 4 months since 9.1 isn't coming until then, and maybe a contributing factor, but blizzard is pushing out the way you buy game time if you're not running a sub. I get the feeling you don't play WoW pvp very much and just use the easiest thing that was complained about a few months ago. Fun fact too about convoke it becomes less effective at nuking people down with more targets to hit it can be LoS'd, and a 3 minute cooldown that can be interrupted. My druid main friend especially hates fighting Shamans with the earth elemental pet. You'll bring Paladins, Rogues and Druids into this but why don't you bring up Windwalker Monks, Arms Warriors, Shadow priests, and Fire mages Ele shamans? Wonder what your opinion on all those are?

    Gw2's combat system is vastly superior to WoW's system, twitch based gameplay also works here because on top of the number of defensive tools in your arsenal/build. you also have the baseline defensive of directional evasion (haha just dodge lmao) as much people like to meme about that because of a high burst meta back then , it's an essential tool to surviving pvp situations. Gw2 combat is hard, your gear grind is through knowledge(via classes, interactions, understanding your own class) and learning the animations, Not to mention nitt picking this detail from WoW , in Gw2 things won't hit you unless you're actually within their striking range, or projectiles actually make contact with you. Final note BFA WoW pvp was total garbage, SL PvP was something I legitimately enjoyed for the time I was playing it, because it didn't feel like a total slog,

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Forums like... a month ago:

    Meta is perfect. Maybe a slight touch up on Herald and we can leave it there til next expansion

    Me: Yeah, until the next outlier shows up

    Forums now: kitten scourge op nerf asap

    Me: Yup... that didn't take long

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    Maybe if they're afk Glass Cannon Eles, but for regular players? Not really, they don't die even if they use their active defense poorly.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    "Heavy damage comps" are rarely used because they don't exist. The highest a glass cannon can do is medium damage.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    They can't. A thief will have a hard time bursting someone for even 50% of their HP (and will usually have to be content with 25-35% as a glass cannon), and Mesmer can only just barely crack 50% now. Mesmer wasn't played since February ever, for a reason.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    If the alternative is to keep increasing powerdip, hurting the game more and more, thats still worth it. Alternatively admit the february megapatch was an unmitigated disaster, and revert everything since and including it.

    What you talking? I'm a revenant using the current renegade build and I've had a thief kill me in seconds. And that isn't even as a glass cannon build lol

    Gonna call hard doubt on that.

    You say 5k. Yet there's proof there's a thief build that can do 11k. The reason it isn't used is because they'd get blown up seconds after using it if another enemy showed up.

    There isnt. One guy did the math, but his math had a number of errors, in reality the max you can do realistically is around 8k with a completely unplayable build that will almost always do a lot less damage because its damage modifiers turn off.

    The current renegade build has 16922 health. Glass cannon mesmer as 15k hp.

    The Renegade build also has an extra 600 armour, and a number of damage reduction traits. On you, the standard 5k backstab turns into a 3k backstab. Hence the hard doubt.

    Your looking at classes that even Ur thief damage can 3 shot.

    Lets ignore that Renegade can't be 3-shot, or even remotely. There is one other issue. Thief can't use backstab more than once per fight, realistically. Almost all of their damage comes from that. They can "3-shot" you in the same sense a Warrior can 3-shot you with 3 eviscerates. In reality, thief does a 5k burst, and then does probably around 2k DPS before running away.

    If your three shotting people. U aren't "medium damage"..

    Good that no one is, and not even remotely.

    The problem is how hard some of these builds can bunker that's the issue. Not the damage output.

    The damage output is the issue, most builds arent even bunkering that much.

    I've been dropped by thief's very quickly several times there's no hard doubt about it. The games pace feels pretty fast most situations

    Once again, with your build, Im gonna call doubt. Even the glassiest thief, fighting you when youre not fighting back, will probably need 10+ seconds to kill you. If you fight back, they cant kill you at all. So your idea of "being dropped by thieves quickly" is nonsense. Unless you meant to add "when I was on 20% hp". The game pace feels glacially slow in all situations. CMC even mentioned it in the patch notes as their big problem.

    We don't need to run around with every proffession 2 shot bursting one another. That's not "skillful". Being able to spam 1 faster then another player just means u can play a flashy game of snap.

    Thats the beauty of it though. That isnt what happened. What we had was the threat of being 2-touched. But you rarely ever got 2-touched. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute. Its much like fighting games. High damage forces you to play as cleanly as possible with as few mistakes as possible, if you make a mistake, you eat a lot of damage. That is skillful. Its why fighting games are such a hard genre. Now? You can make mistake after mistake, since damage is so low, you cant really be punished for that. And since damage is so low, you just spam off cooldown. That is indeed skillless.

    If your butchering people faster then they can react. It's no longer skillful. And it seems like that's what you want in the game which is ridiculous.

    Again, didnt really happen, the threat was there, but it was just a threat.

    WoW is currently quite litterally bleeding to death currently for introducing the PvP meta you proclaim this game needs.

    I dont play WoW, but Im gonna go out on a limb and guess that youre completely misrepresenting the situation. Aaaand its not. Seems the general consensus is that the meta isnt ideal, but its better than the low-damage tank meta they had before by a mile. Gee, I wonder why.

    Plus, yknow, GW2 PvP is currently quite literally bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta you proclaimed this game needs.

    Didn't say the game needed the current meta. And no it isn't bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta.

    If you believe this games biggest reason for quitting is it's PvP meta your wrong I'm afraid.

    I said the games PvP, not the game in general.

    In WoW the reason the PvP meta is killing the game is because BiS gearing for PvE content is currently earnt by PVP.

    Which is an issue with the design, not the PvP inherently.

    I am not misrepresenting the problem. Lol. WoW on SL launch was heavily over the Top. As the characters were balanced with borrowed power in mind. Borrowed power which hadn't been unlocked.

    There's a litteral video taking the p*ss out of WoWs SL pvp because of how one shotty it is.

    And there are many more of people enjoying it, and many more of people dunking on the low damage metas before because of how trash they are.

    And my build is the build on metabattle lol. I dunno how far up the PvP ladder you are. But I'm afraid your gonna have to accept the fact that yea maybe Ur correct under perfectly played circumstances these classes aren't doing this.

    Again, this isnt a matter of gameplay. Its straight up not possible. If you're playing the metabattle renegade build, backstab will hit you for around 3k-3.5k. Then, his highest damage skill will be shadowshot, at at most 2k a pop, and he can use it twice. And then he just has autoattacks, which hits for around 2.2k over 1.68 seconds. So if within 3 seconds, he can barely take you down to 50% if you do literally nothing, how is it killing you "within seconds".

    Take a silver/gold game and these players aren't playing perfectly. And mistakes or lack of utilising defensives properly will mean u die faster.

    They used to mean that. Nowadays, they dont. You can make mistakes as you wont, you still wont really die outside of being outnumbered.

    And no. WoW has a certain population of the playerbase who like the current what they call "fast meta". And it isn't. WoWs lead Dev went on call with one of the bigger wow players and said it's OTT but they don't want to overnerf it.

    WoW isn't "fast meta" it's become twitch reaction based. Something a mmorpg litterally should NEVER be introducing.

    If that is the case, its an easy fix. But what I do know, is that the by far most hated, most unpopular metas in WoW are the low-damage ones like we have in GW2 right now. The ones considered the most skillless.

    Go look up WoW Boomkin PvP convoke the spirits.

    This ability fires 16 spells at full damage over 3 seconds at 0 resource usuage.. you can also manage it as it won't target CC'd players so can cc one and then convoke the other for a strong ST burst.

    Look up the 3 rogue Arena team.

    The team that is considered so bad, its not even tiered? Great example.

    Really? 61% profit loss, 50% player loss, forums on litteral fire?

    Do u read arena forums on wow? Because I do.

    Clearly not if you think triple rogue is anything more than a garbage-tier meme team.

    8.3 was a "fast meta". SL is a twitch reaction 1 shot burst roulette. The vast majority think it needs fixing. And blizzard are also addressing it. Just not fast enough.

    The vast majority also still think its significantly better than low damage metas.

    Fights in gw2 are like 20 seconds long in most cases that I've experienced. While in wow Ur looking at 10 minute duals in wow.

    Fights in GW2 last 20 seconds if one player is outnumbered. If neither is outnumbered, they can easily last an infinite amount of time with no resolution.

    Wows "slow meta" which was dampening
    And it was 1000x worse then gw2 is currently.

    I'm a wow player lol. If I felt the game was that slow paced. I'd likely notice given the fact I experience both.

    WoW has had metas as slow as GW2s current meta before as well. They were hated. Because they're trash.

    No ones saying gw2 PvP is perfect. Spoiler no games is. But it ain't that bad either. And removing bunker builds gets what u want anyway.

    It is that bad. If it wasnt, it wouldnt have had so many players leave that matchmaking fails to work properly. And no, it doesnt. Because some of the "bunker" builds have just been regular glass cannon builds with just the survivability they get from skills and heal skills. And that was too much. Nerf that, and you just further reduce skills.

    Less survivability = less dmg needed to die.

    If 5k does 40% of a person's go after the nerfs, then it's the same as if 10k does 40% of the other person's health. Nerfing sustain will ultimately achieve the same effect Ur after.

    At which point you could also just revert the entire thing, and it would be just as good if not better, no?

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    Maybe if they're afk Glass Cannon Eles, but for regular players? Not really, they don't die even if they use their active defense poorly.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    "Heavy damage comps" are rarely used because they don't exist. The highest a glass cannon can do is medium damage.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    They can't. A thief will have a hard time bursting someone for even 50% of their HP (and will usually have to be content with 25-35% as a glass cannon), and Mesmer can only just barely crack 50% now. Mesmer wasn't played since February ever, for a reason.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    If the alternative is to keep increasing powerdip, hurting the game more and more, thats still worth it. Alternatively admit the february megapatch was an unmitigated disaster, and revert everything since and including it.

    What you talking? I'm a revenant using the current renegade build and I've had a thief kill me in seconds. And that isn't even as a glass cannon build lol

    Gonna call hard doubt on that.

    You say 5k. Yet there's proof there's a thief build that can do 11k. The reason it isn't used is because they'd get blown up seconds after using it if another enemy showed up.

    There isnt. One guy did the math, but his math had a number of errors, in reality the max you can do realistically is around 8k with a completely unplayable build that will almost always do a lot less damage because its damage modifiers turn off.

    The current renegade build has 16922 health. Glass cannon mesmer as 15k hp.

    The Renegade build also has an extra 600 armour, and a number of damage reduction traits. On you, the standard 5k backstab turns into a 3k backstab. Hence the hard doubt.

    Your looking at classes that even Ur thief damage can 3 shot.

    Lets ignore that Renegade can't be 3-shot, or even remotely. There is one other issue. Thief can't use backstab more than once per fight, realistically. Almost all of their damage comes from that. They can "3-shot" you in the same sense a Warrior can 3-shot you with 3 eviscerates. In reality, thief does a 5k burst, and then does probably around 2k DPS before running away.

    If your three shotting people. U aren't "medium damage"..

    Good that no one is, and not even remotely.

    The problem is how hard some of these builds can bunker that's the issue. Not the damage output.

    The damage output is the issue, most builds arent even bunkering that much.

    I've been dropped by thief's very quickly several times there's no hard doubt about it. The games pace feels pretty fast most situations

    Once again, with your build, Im gonna call doubt. Even the glassiest thief, fighting you when youre not fighting back, will probably need 10+ seconds to kill you. If you fight back, they cant kill you at all. So your idea of "being dropped by thieves quickly" is nonsense. Unless you meant to add "when I was on 20% hp". The game pace feels glacially slow in all situations. CMC even mentioned it in the patch notes as their big problem.

    We don't need to run around with every proffession 2 shot bursting one another. That's not "skillful". Being able to spam 1 faster then another player just means u can play a flashy game of snap.

    Thats the beauty of it though. That isnt what happened. What we had was the threat of being 2-touched. But you rarely ever got 2-touched. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute. Its much like fighting games. High damage forces you to play as cleanly as possible with as few mistakes as possible, if you make a mistake, you eat a lot of damage. That is skillful. Its why fighting games are such a hard genre. Now? You can make mistake after mistake, since damage is so low, you cant really be punished for that. And since damage is so low, you just spam off cooldown. That is indeed skillless.

    If your butchering people faster then they can react. It's no longer skillful. And it seems like that's what you want in the game which is ridiculous.

    Again, didnt really happen, the threat was there, but it was just a threat.

    WoW is currently quite litterally bleeding to death currently for introducing the PvP meta you proclaim this game needs.

    I dont play WoW, but Im gonna go out on a limb and guess that youre completely misrepresenting the situation. Aaaand its not. Seems the general consensus is that the meta isnt ideal, but its better than the low-damage tank meta they had before by a mile. Gee, I wonder why.

    Plus, yknow, GW2 PvP is currently quite literally bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta you proclaimed this game needs.

    Didn't say the game needed the current meta. And no it isn't bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta.

    If you believe this games biggest reason for quitting is it's PvP meta your wrong I'm afraid.

    I said the games PvP, not the game in general.

    In WoW the reason the PvP meta is killing the game is because BiS gearing for PvE content is currently earnt by PVP.

    Which is an issue with the design, not the PvP inherently.

    I am not misrepresenting the problem. Lol. WoW on SL launch was heavily over the Top. As the characters were balanced with borrowed power in mind. Borrowed power which hadn't been unlocked.

    There's a litteral video taking the p*ss out of WoWs SL pvp because of how one shotty it is.

    And there are many more of people enjoying it, and many more of people dunking on the low damage metas before because of how trash they are.

    And my build is the build on metabattle lol. I dunno how far up the PvP ladder you are. But I'm afraid your gonna have to accept the fact that yea maybe Ur correct under perfectly played circumstances these classes aren't doing this.

    Again, this isnt a matter of gameplay. Its straight up not possible. If you're playing the metabattle renegade build, backstab will hit you for around 3k-3.5k. Then, his highest damage skill will be shadowshot, at at most 2k a pop, and he can use it twice. And then he just has autoattacks, which hits for around 2.2k over 1.68 seconds. So if within 3 seconds, he can barely take you down to 50% if you do literally nothing, how is it killing you "within seconds".

    Take a silver/gold game and these players aren't playing perfectly. And mistakes or lack of utilising defensives properly will mean u die faster.

    They used to mean that. Nowadays, they dont. You can make mistakes as you wont, you still wont really die outside of being outnumbered.

    And no. WoW has a certain population of the playerbase who like the current what they call "fast meta". And it isn't. WoWs lead Dev went on call with one of the bigger wow players and said it's OTT but they don't want to overnerf it.

    WoW isn't "fast meta" it's become twitch reaction based. Something a mmorpg litterally should NEVER be introducing.

    If that is the case, its an easy fix. But what I do know, is that the by far most hated, most unpopular metas in WoW are the low-damage ones like we have in GW2 right now. The ones considered the most skillless.

    Go look up WoW Boomkin PvP convoke the spirits.

    This ability fires 16 spells at full damage over 3 seconds at 0 resource usuage.. you can also manage it as it won't target CC'd players so can cc one and then convoke the other for a strong ST burst.

    Look up the 3 rogue Arena team.

    The team that is considered so bad, its not even tiered? Great example.

    Really? 61% profit loss, 50% player loss, forums on litteral fire?

    Do u read arena forums on wow? Because I do.

    8.3 was a "fast meta". SL is a twitch reaction 1 shot burst roulette. The vast majority think it needs fixing. And blizzard are also addressing it. Just not fast enough.

    Ur looking at the wrong one then. There's a 3 rogue combo in leaderboards for 3v3s currently.

    I'd like to say yeah the slow metas were disliked in wow. But that's because wow goes one extreme to another.

    Fights in gw2 are like 20 seconds long in most cases that I've experienced. While in wow Ur looking at 10 minute duals in wow.

    Wows "slow meta" which was dampening
    And it was 1000x worse then gw2 is currently.

    I'm a wow player lol. If I felt the game was that slow paced. I'd likely notice given the fact I experience both.

    And yes gw2 is slower then WoW that's for sure. But this games no where near WoWs slow meta lol

    WoWs arena system basically nullifies you over time passively.. any competitive player is going to hate a random out of the player control system stripping their characters over time.

    8.3 fixed the issue. Players were dying much faster. 9.0 only needed to retain 8.3 speeds without the RNG system. But instead it tripled it.

    No ones saying gw2 PvP is perfect. Spoiler no games is. But it ain't that bad either. And removing bunker builds gets what u want anyway.

    Less survivability = less dmg needed to die.

    If 5k does 40% of a person's go after the nerfs, then it's the same as if 10k does 40% of the other person's health. Nerfing sustain will ultimately achieve the same effect Ur after.

    Fast metas mean these proffessions meta builds need to be their glass cannon builds. So removing the bunker builds in favour of pushing power based builds to the top is a way to achieve that..

    Not a good one though. It just reduces skill and makes spamming even more ideal.

    U can't have a fast meta when bunker builds and condi damagers are the leading meta. Because neither of those things are built for fast kills.

    Actually condi in this game is built for fast kills, sustained condi is trash. And they're not really leading the meta either. Power Shiro and Explosive Sword are also very present, and I believe Power Shiro is more common than the renegade builds. Theyre technically glass cannon, but just as unkillable because the damage isnt there.

  • Daddy.8125Daddy.8125 Member ✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    Maybe if they're afk Glass Cannon Eles, but for regular players? Not really, they don't die even if they use their active defense poorly.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    "Heavy damage comps" are rarely used because they don't exist. The highest a glass cannon can do is medium damage.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    They can't. A thief will have a hard time bursting someone for even 50% of their HP (and will usually have to be content with 25-35% as a glass cannon), and Mesmer can only just barely crack 50% now. Mesmer wasn't played since February ever, for a reason.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    If the alternative is to keep increasing powerdip, hurting the game more and more, thats still worth it. Alternatively admit the february megapatch was an unmitigated disaster, and revert everything since and including it.

    What you talking? I'm a revenant using the current renegade build and I've had a thief kill me in seconds. And that isn't even as a glass cannon build lol

    Gonna call hard doubt on that.

    You say 5k. Yet there's proof there's a thief build that can do 11k. The reason it isn't used is because they'd get blown up seconds after using it if another enemy showed up.

    There isnt. One guy did the math, but his math had a number of errors, in reality the max you can do realistically is around 8k with a completely unplayable build that will almost always do a lot less damage because its damage modifiers turn off.

    The current renegade build has 16922 health. Glass cannon mesmer as 15k hp.

    The Renegade build also has an extra 600 armour, and a number of damage reduction traits. On you, the standard 5k backstab turns into a 3k backstab. Hence the hard doubt.

    Your looking at classes that even Ur thief damage can 3 shot.

    Lets ignore that Renegade can't be 3-shot, or even remotely. There is one other issue. Thief can't use backstab more than once per fight, realistically. Almost all of their damage comes from that. They can "3-shot" you in the same sense a Warrior can 3-shot you with 3 eviscerates. In reality, thief does a 5k burst, and then does probably around 2k DPS before running away.

    If your three shotting people. U aren't "medium damage"..

    Good that no one is, and not even remotely.

    The problem is how hard some of these builds can bunker that's the issue. Not the damage output.

    The damage output is the issue, most builds arent even bunkering that much.

    I've been dropped by thief's very quickly several times there's no hard doubt about it. The games pace feels pretty fast most situations

    Once again, with your build, Im gonna call doubt. Even the glassiest thief, fighting you when youre not fighting back, will probably need 10+ seconds to kill you. If you fight back, they cant kill you at all. So your idea of "being dropped by thieves quickly" is nonsense. Unless you meant to add "when I was on 20% hp". The game pace feels glacially slow in all situations. CMC even mentioned it in the patch notes as their big problem.

    We don't need to run around with every proffession 2 shot bursting one another. That's not "skillful". Being able to spam 1 faster then another player just means u can play a flashy game of snap.

    Thats the beauty of it though. That isnt what happened. What we had was the threat of being 2-touched. But you rarely ever got 2-touched. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute. Its much like fighting games. High damage forces you to play as cleanly as possible with as few mistakes as possible, if you make a mistake, you eat a lot of damage. That is skillful. Its why fighting games are such a hard genre. Now? You can make mistake after mistake, since damage is so low, you cant really be punished for that. And since damage is so low, you just spam off cooldown. That is indeed skillless.

    If your butchering people faster then they can react. It's no longer skillful. And it seems like that's what you want in the game which is ridiculous.

    Again, didnt really happen, the threat was there, but it was just a threat.

    WoW is currently quite litterally bleeding to death currently for introducing the PvP meta you proclaim this game needs.

    I dont play WoW, but Im gonna go out on a limb and guess that youre completely misrepresenting the situation. Aaaand its not. Seems the general consensus is that the meta isnt ideal, but its better than the low-damage tank meta they had before by a mile. Gee, I wonder why.

    Plus, yknow, GW2 PvP is currently quite literally bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta you proclaimed this game needs.

    Didn't say the game needed the current meta. And no it isn't bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta.

    If you believe this games biggest reason for quitting is it's PvP meta your wrong I'm afraid.

    I said the games PvP, not the game in general.

    In WoW the reason the PvP meta is killing the game is because BiS gearing for PvE content is currently earnt by PVP.

    Which is an issue with the design, not the PvP inherently.

    I am not misrepresenting the problem. Lol. WoW on SL launch was heavily over the Top. As the characters were balanced with borrowed power in mind. Borrowed power which hadn't been unlocked.

    There's a litteral video taking the p*ss out of WoWs SL pvp because of how one shotty it is.

    And there are many more of people enjoying it, and many more of people dunking on the low damage metas before because of how trash they are.

    And my build is the build on metabattle lol. I dunno how far up the PvP ladder you are. But I'm afraid your gonna have to accept the fact that yea maybe Ur correct under perfectly played circumstances these classes aren't doing this.

    Again, this isnt a matter of gameplay. Its straight up not possible. If you're playing the metabattle renegade build, backstab will hit you for around 3k-3.5k. Then, his highest damage skill will be shadowshot, at at most 2k a pop, and he can use it twice. And then he just has autoattacks, which hits for around 2.2k over 1.68 seconds. So if within 3 seconds, he can barely take you down to 50% if you do literally nothing, how is it killing you "within seconds".

    Take a silver/gold game and these players aren't playing perfectly. And mistakes or lack of utilising defensives properly will mean u die faster.

    They used to mean that. Nowadays, they dont. You can make mistakes as you wont, you still wont really die outside of being outnumbered.

    And no. WoW has a certain population of the playerbase who like the current what they call "fast meta". And it isn't. WoWs lead Dev went on call with one of the bigger wow players and said it's OTT but they don't want to overnerf it.

    WoW isn't "fast meta" it's become twitch reaction based. Something a mmorpg litterally should NEVER be introducing.

    If that is the case, its an easy fix. But what I do know, is that the by far most hated, most unpopular metas in WoW are the low-damage ones like we have in GW2 right now. The ones considered the most skillless.

    Go look up WoW Boomkin PvP convoke the spirits.

    This ability fires 16 spells at full damage over 3 seconds at 0 resource usuage.. you can also manage it as it won't target CC'd players so can cc one and then convoke the other for a strong ST burst.

    Look up the 3 rogue Arena team.

    The team that is considered so bad, its not even tiered? Great example.

    Really? 61% profit loss, 50% player loss, forums on litteral fire?

    Do u read arena forums on wow? Because I do.

    8.3 was a "fast meta". SL is a twitch reaction 1 shot burst roulette. The vast majority think it needs fixing. And blizzard are also addressing it. Just not fast enough.

    Ur looking at the wrong one then. There's a 3 rogue combo in leaderboards for 3v3s currently.

    I'd like to say yeah the slow metas were disliked in wow. But that's because wow goes one extreme to another.

    Fights in gw2 are like 20 seconds long in most cases that I've experienced. While in wow Ur looking at 10 minute duals in wow.

    Wows "slow meta" which was dampening
    And it was 1000x worse then gw2 is currently.

    I'm a wow player lol. If I felt the game was that slow paced. I'd likely notice given the fact I experience both.

    And yes gw2 is slower then WoW that's for sure. But this games no where near WoWs slow meta lol

    WoWs arena system basically nullifies you over time passively.. any competitive player is going to hate a random out of the player control system stripping their characters over time.

    8.3 fixed the issue. Players were dying much faster. 9.0 only needed to retain 8.3 speeds without the RNG system. But instead it tripled it.

    No ones saying gw2 PvP is perfect. Spoiler no games is. But it ain't that bad either. And removing bunker builds gets what u want anyway.

    Less survivability = less dmg needed to die.

    If 5k does 40% of a person's go after the nerfs, then it's the same as if 10k does 40% of the other person's health. Nerfing sustain will ultimately achieve the same effect Ur after.

    Fast metas mean these proffessions meta builds need to be their glass cannon builds. So removing the bunker builds in favour of pushing power based builds to the top is a way to achieve that..

    Not a good one though. It just reduces skill and makes spamming even more ideal.

    U can't have a fast meta when bunker builds and condi damagers are the leading meta. Because neither of those things are built for fast kills.

    Actually condi in this game is built for fast kills, sustained condi is trash. And they're not really leading the meta either. Power Shiro and Explosive Sword are also very present, and I believe Power Shiro is more common than the renegade builds. Theyre technically glass cannon, but just as unkillable because the damage isnt there.

    but Mallyx Condition is also meta right by shiro.

    and how does it exactly?...

    If u hit for 5k DPS Against 15k Targets or 10k v 30k hp targets. ur killing them in the exact same amount of Damage, like by statistics these are identical things. if u nerf class sustain or buff class Damage they equate to the exact same process.

    im sorry, but i disagree with you, fights arent that long in the slightest.

    These bloke Brutally Rips people apart Pretty kitten fast with a Power Chrono build.. something completely not meta currently.

    p.s 3rd fight in he Litterally 3 hits the player in Skyhammer.. before the dude even gets to the steps lmfao, so dont say 3 shots dont exist. again as i stated. there are these builds which do insane damage. the problem is they arent meta, and they arent Shown.. so they gain 0 Popularity around the majority, the majoirty will keep spammig the metabattle builds, which ALOT of them are surrounding things like Fire Weaver, Mirage Decap Druid etc etc. so ye u wont see em.

    the build Suffers if it cant kill condi based damage before they run out of CC.. it also cant handle any focus whatsoever, therefore pretty mute in PvP built around holding points etc etc outside of ganknig and +1ing, I dont get what u really expect. unlike WoW which atleast is Kill based, this game is about holding nodes.. if ur 1 shotting one another how do u exactly see that working?.. ur litterally gonna Just be holding a Point til the next player one shots u the nstands on the node til u return..

    the games pvP Design Favors brawling for contesting points realistically, uj cant have a 5 team of +1ers because theres Nothing to +1.

  • Daddy.8125Daddy.8125 Member ✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Forums like... a month ago:

    Meta is perfect. Maybe a slight touch up on Herald and we can leave it there til next expansion

    Me: Yeah, until the next outlier shows up

    Forums now: kitten scourge op nerf asap

    Me: Yup... that didn't take long

    Ofcourse, they cant nerf every other class in the meta, then leave one. thats creating a Gap between the classes that didnt exist prior. the issue is they started nertfing.. which has now put Scourge even higher against these classes now. kinda occurs when u do half a job bob.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2021

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    Maybe if they're afk Glass Cannon Eles, but for regular players? Not really, they don't die even if they use their active defense poorly.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    "Heavy damage comps" are rarely used because they don't exist. The highest a glass cannon can do is medium damage.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    They can't. A thief will have a hard time bursting someone for even 50% of their HP (and will usually have to be content with 25-35% as a glass cannon), and Mesmer can only just barely crack 50% now. Mesmer wasn't played since February ever, for a reason.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    If the alternative is to keep increasing powerdip, hurting the game more and more, thats still worth it. Alternatively admit the february megapatch was an unmitigated disaster, and revert everything since and including it.

    What you talking? I'm a revenant using the current renegade build and I've had a thief kill me in seconds. And that isn't even as a glass cannon build lol

    Gonna call hard doubt on that.

    You say 5k. Yet there's proof there's a thief build that can do 11k. The reason it isn't used is because they'd get blown up seconds after using it if another enemy showed up.

    There isnt. One guy did the math, but his math had a number of errors, in reality the max you can do realistically is around 8k with a completely unplayable build that will almost always do a lot less damage because its damage modifiers turn off.

    The current renegade build has 16922 health. Glass cannon mesmer as 15k hp.

    The Renegade build also has an extra 600 armour, and a number of damage reduction traits. On you, the standard 5k backstab turns into a 3k backstab. Hence the hard doubt.

    Your looking at classes that even Ur thief damage can 3 shot.

    Lets ignore that Renegade can't be 3-shot, or even remotely. There is one other issue. Thief can't use backstab more than once per fight, realistically. Almost all of their damage comes from that. They can "3-shot" you in the same sense a Warrior can 3-shot you with 3 eviscerates. In reality, thief does a 5k burst, and then does probably around 2k DPS before running away.

    If your three shotting people. U aren't "medium damage"..

    Good that no one is, and not even remotely.

    The problem is how hard some of these builds can bunker that's the issue. Not the damage output.

    The damage output is the issue, most builds arent even bunkering that much.

    I've been dropped by thief's very quickly several times there's no hard doubt about it. The games pace feels pretty fast most situations

    Once again, with your build, Im gonna call doubt. Even the glassiest thief, fighting you when youre not fighting back, will probably need 10+ seconds to kill you. If you fight back, they cant kill you at all. So your idea of "being dropped by thieves quickly" is nonsense. Unless you meant to add "when I was on 20% hp". The game pace feels glacially slow in all situations. CMC even mentioned it in the patch notes as their big problem.

    We don't need to run around with every proffession 2 shot bursting one another. That's not "skillful". Being able to spam 1 faster then another player just means u can play a flashy game of snap.

    Thats the beauty of it though. That isnt what happened. What we had was the threat of being 2-touched. But you rarely ever got 2-touched. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute. Its much like fighting games. High damage forces you to play as cleanly as possible with as few mistakes as possible, if you make a mistake, you eat a lot of damage. That is skillful. Its why fighting games are such a hard genre. Now? You can make mistake after mistake, since damage is so low, you cant really be punished for that. And since damage is so low, you just spam off cooldown. That is indeed skillless.

    If your butchering people faster then they can react. It's no longer skillful. And it seems like that's what you want in the game which is ridiculous.

    Again, didnt really happen, the threat was there, but it was just a threat.

    WoW is currently quite litterally bleeding to death currently for introducing the PvP meta you proclaim this game needs.

    I dont play WoW, but Im gonna go out on a limb and guess that youre completely misrepresenting the situation. Aaaand its not. Seems the general consensus is that the meta isnt ideal, but its better than the low-damage tank meta they had before by a mile. Gee, I wonder why.

    Plus, yknow, GW2 PvP is currently quite literally bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta you proclaimed this game needs.

    Didn't say the game needed the current meta. And no it isn't bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta.

    If you believe this games biggest reason for quitting is it's PvP meta your wrong I'm afraid.

    I said the games PvP, not the game in general.

    In WoW the reason the PvP meta is killing the game is because BiS gearing for PvE content is currently earnt by PVP.

    Which is an issue with the design, not the PvP inherently.

    I am not misrepresenting the problem. Lol. WoW on SL launch was heavily over the Top. As the characters were balanced with borrowed power in mind. Borrowed power which hadn't been unlocked.

    There's a litteral video taking the p*ss out of WoWs SL pvp because of how one shotty it is.

    And there are many more of people enjoying it, and many more of people dunking on the low damage metas before because of how trash they are.

    And my build is the build on metabattle lol. I dunno how far up the PvP ladder you are. But I'm afraid your gonna have to accept the fact that yea maybe Ur correct under perfectly played circumstances these classes aren't doing this.

    Again, this isnt a matter of gameplay. Its straight up not possible. If you're playing the metabattle renegade build, backstab will hit you for around 3k-3.5k. Then, his highest damage skill will be shadowshot, at at most 2k a pop, and he can use it twice. And then he just has autoattacks, which hits for around 2.2k over 1.68 seconds. So if within 3 seconds, he can barely take you down to 50% if you do literally nothing, how is it killing you "within seconds".

    Take a silver/gold game and these players aren't playing perfectly. And mistakes or lack of utilising defensives properly will mean u die faster.

    They used to mean that. Nowadays, they dont. You can make mistakes as you wont, you still wont really die outside of being outnumbered.

    And no. WoW has a certain population of the playerbase who like the current what they call "fast meta". And it isn't. WoWs lead Dev went on call with one of the bigger wow players and said it's OTT but they don't want to overnerf it.

    WoW isn't "fast meta" it's become twitch reaction based. Something a mmorpg litterally should NEVER be introducing.

    If that is the case, its an easy fix. But what I do know, is that the by far most hated, most unpopular metas in WoW are the low-damage ones like we have in GW2 right now. The ones considered the most skillless.

    Go look up WoW Boomkin PvP convoke the spirits.

    This ability fires 16 spells at full damage over 3 seconds at 0 resource usuage.. you can also manage it as it won't target CC'd players so can cc one and then convoke the other for a strong ST burst.

    Look up the 3 rogue Arena team.

    The team that is considered so bad, its not even tiered? Great example.

    Really? 61% profit loss, 50% player loss, forums on litteral fire?

    Do u read arena forums on wow? Because I do.

    8.3 was a "fast meta". SL is a twitch reaction 1 shot burst roulette. The vast majority think it needs fixing. And blizzard are also addressing it. Just not fast enough.

    Ur looking at the wrong one then. There's a 3 rogue combo in leaderboards for 3v3s currently.

    I'd like to say yeah the slow metas were disliked in wow. But that's because wow goes one extreme to another.

    Fights in gw2 are like 20 seconds long in most cases that I've experienced. While in wow Ur looking at 10 minute duals in wow.

    Wows "slow meta" which was dampening
    And it was 1000x worse then gw2 is currently.

    I'm a wow player lol. If I felt the game was that slow paced. I'd likely notice given the fact I experience both.

    And yes gw2 is slower then WoW that's for sure. But this games no where near WoWs slow meta lol

    WoWs arena system basically nullifies you over time passively.. any competitive player is going to hate a random out of the player control system stripping their characters over time.

    8.3 fixed the issue. Players were dying much faster. 9.0 only needed to retain 8.3 speeds without the RNG system. But instead it tripled it.

    No ones saying gw2 PvP is perfect. Spoiler no games is. But it ain't that bad either. And removing bunker builds gets what u want anyway.

    Less survivability = less dmg needed to die.

    If 5k does 40% of a person's go after the nerfs, then it's the same as if 10k does 40% of the other person's health. Nerfing sustain will ultimately achieve the same effect Ur after.

    Fast metas mean these proffessions meta builds need to be their glass cannon builds. So removing the bunker builds in favour of pushing power based builds to the top is a way to achieve that..

    Not a good one though. It just reduces skill and makes spamming even more ideal.

    U can't have a fast meta when bunker builds and condi damagers are the leading meta. Because neither of those things are built for fast kills.

    Actually condi in this game is built for fast kills, sustained condi is trash. And they're not really leading the meta either. Power Shiro and Explosive Sword are also very present, and I believe Power Shiro is more common than the renegade builds. Theyre technically glass cannon, but just as unkillable because the damage isnt there.

    but Mallyx Condition is also meta right by shiro.

    Which likes to burst down as well.

    and how does it exactly?...

    If u hit for 5k DPS Against 15k Targets or 10k v 30k hp targets. ur killing them in the exact same amount of Damage, like by statistics these are identical things. if u nerf class sustain or buff class Damage they equate to the exact same process.

    Healing skills and active defenses. If you lower damage, and then lower survivability, you still have the healing skill negating it. If you reduced everything by the same amount, then you made no change to begin with, and you can just revert the whole thing.

    im sorry, but i disagree with you, fights arent that long in the slightest.

    Oh they absolutely are. There is a reason why we had people in the MOTA synchronised dancing, because they knew their fight would not end.

    These bloke Brutally Rips people apart Pretty kitten fast with a Power Chrono build.. something completely not meta currently.

    Its not meta because while its bursty, it survives poorly, and against good players, it doesn't work. Oh and of course, Renegade just shrugs off the damage.

    p.s 3rd fight in he Litterally 3 hits the player in Skyhammer.. before the dude even gets to the steps lmfao, so dont say 3 shots dont exist. again as i stated. there are these builds which do insane damage. the problem is they arent meta, and they arent Shown.. so they gain 0 Popularity around the majority, the majoirty will keep spammig the metabattle builds, which ALOT of them are surrounding things like Fire Weaver, Mirage Decap Druid etc etc. so ye u wont see em.

    They don't exist in the meta. In theory, with a super glass cannon build, against an enemy that is also glass and literally afk or effectively afk, you can in theory do it. In practice? Enemies arent afk, and unless youre really low in the ranking, theyre not effectively afk either. They will just avoid almost all of the burst, and your damage is nothing. The problem is they arent meta because they usually just dont do anything.

    the build Suffers if it cant kill condi based damage before they run out of CC.. it also cant handle any focus whatsoever, therefore pretty mute in PvP built around holding points etc etc outside of ganknig and +1ing, I dont get what u really expect. unlike WoW which atleast is Kill based, this game is about holding nodes.. if ur 1 shotting one another how do u exactly see that working?.. ur litterally gonna Just be holding a Point til the next player one shots u the nstands on the node til u return..

    Thats not the issue the build has. The issue it has is that if the enemy just dodges or blocks at the right moment, all of the damage goes poof. If the enemy isnt glass, it also fails. And the point, and I cant believe you keep missing it, is not that you consistently oneshot. You didnt. You had the threat of oneshotting. The fights were long, and focused primarily on baiting cooldowns, exhausting the enemy options, while avoiding the same thing happening to you. As Ive said before, its the same concept of fighting games. That works great. What we have right now, where unless you are outnumbered, you will never die on a sidenote and might as well just synchronised dance? That doesnt work at all.

    the games pvP Design Favors brawling for contesting points realistically, uj cant have a 5 team of +1ers because theres Nothing to +1.

    And thats what we had pre-february. Now we just have boring waiting for +1s, because otherwise kills cannot happen.

  • Daddy.8125Daddy.8125 Member ✭✭

    @Lucentfir.7430 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    Maybe if they're afk Glass Cannon Eles, but for regular players? Not really, they don't die even if they use their active defense poorly.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    "Heavy damage comps" are rarely used because they don't exist. The highest a glass cannon can do is medium damage.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    They can't. A thief will have a hard time bursting someone for even 50% of their HP (and will usually have to be content with 25-35% as a glass cannon), and Mesmer can only just barely crack 50% now. Mesmer wasn't played since February ever, for a reason.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    If the alternative is to keep increasing powerdip, hurting the game more and more, thats still worth it. Alternatively admit the february megapatch was an unmitigated disaster, and revert everything since and including it.

    What you talking? I'm a revenant using the current renegade build and I've had a thief kill me in seconds. And that isn't even as a glass cannon build lol

    Gonna call hard doubt on that.

    You say 5k. Yet there's proof there's a thief build that can do 11k. The reason it isn't used is because they'd get blown up seconds after using it if another enemy showed up.

    There isnt. One guy did the math, but his math had a number of errors, in reality the max you can do realistically is around 8k with a completely unplayable build that will almost always do a lot less damage because its damage modifiers turn off.

    The current renegade build has 16922 health. Glass cannon mesmer as 15k hp.

    The Renegade build also has an extra 600 armour, and a number of damage reduction traits. On you, the standard 5k backstab turns into a 3k backstab. Hence the hard doubt.

    Your looking at classes that even Ur thief damage can 3 shot.

    Lets ignore that Renegade can't be 3-shot, or even remotely. There is one other issue. Thief can't use backstab more than once per fight, realistically. Almost all of their damage comes from that. They can "3-shot" you in the same sense a Warrior can 3-shot you with 3 eviscerates. In reality, thief does a 5k burst, and then does probably around 2k DPS before running away.

    If your three shotting people. U aren't "medium damage"..

    Good that no one is, and not even remotely.

    The problem is how hard some of these builds can bunker that's the issue. Not the damage output.

    The damage output is the issue, most builds arent even bunkering that much.

    I've been dropped by thief's very quickly several times there's no hard doubt about it. The games pace feels pretty fast most situations

    Once again, with your build, Im gonna call doubt. Even the glassiest thief, fighting you when youre not fighting back, will probably need 10+ seconds to kill you. If you fight back, they cant kill you at all. So your idea of "being dropped by thieves quickly" is nonsense. Unless you meant to add "when I was on 20% hp". The game pace feels glacially slow in all situations. CMC even mentioned it in the patch notes as their big problem.

    We don't need to run around with every proffession 2 shot bursting one another. That's not "skillful". Being able to spam 1 faster then another player just means u can play a flashy game of snap.

    Thats the beauty of it though. That isnt what happened. What we had was the threat of being 2-touched. But you rarely ever got 2-touched. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute. Its much like fighting games. High damage forces you to play as cleanly as possible with as few mistakes as possible, if you make a mistake, you eat a lot of damage. That is skillful. Its why fighting games are such a hard genre. Now? You can make mistake after mistake, since damage is so low, you cant really be punished for that. And since damage is so low, you just spam off cooldown. That is indeed skillless.

    If your butchering people faster then they can react. It's no longer skillful. And it seems like that's what you want in the game which is ridiculous.

    Again, didnt really happen, the threat was there, but it was just a threat.

    WoW is currently quite litterally bleeding to death currently for introducing the PvP meta you proclaim this game needs.

    I dont play WoW, but Im gonna go out on a limb and guess that youre completely misrepresenting the situation. Aaaand its not. Seems the general consensus is that the meta isnt ideal, but its better than the low-damage tank meta they had before by a mile. Gee, I wonder why.

    Plus, yknow, GW2 PvP is currently quite literally bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta you proclaimed this game needs.

    Didn't say the game needed the current meta. And no it isn't bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta.

    If you believe this games biggest reason for quitting is it's PvP meta your wrong I'm afraid.

    In WoW the reason the PvP meta is killing the game is because BiS gearing for PvE content is currently earnt by PVP.

    I am not misrepresenting the problem. Lol. WoW on SL launch was heavily over the Top. As the characters were balanced with borrowed power in mind. Borrowed power which hadn't been unlocked.

    There's a litteral video taking the p*ss out of WoWs SL pvp because of how one shotty it is.

    And my build is the build on metabattle lol. I dunno how far up the PvP ladder you are. But I'm afraid your gonna have to accept the fact that yea maybe Ur correct under perfectly played circumstances these classes aren't doing this.

    Take a silver/gold game and these players aren't playing perfectly. And mistakes or lack of utilising defensives properly will mean u die faster.

    And no. WoW has a certain population of the playerbase who like the current what they call "fast meta". And it isn't. WoWs lead Dev went on call with one of the bigger wow players and said it's OTT but they don't want to overnerf it.

    WoW isn't "fast meta" it's become twitch reaction based. Something a mmorpg litterally should NEVER be introducing.

    Go look up WoW Boomkin PvP convoke the spirits.

    This ability fires 16 spells at full damage over 3 seconds at 0 resource usuage.. you can also manage it as it won't target CC'd players so can cc one and then convoke the other for a strong ST burst.

    Look up the 3 rogue Arena team.

    And definitely look up the paladin + Boomkin combo.

    This isn't misrepresented. Maybe that's how you want a game to look like. But insta dying before even reaching a target isn't fun.

    Why are you being dishonest? WoW bleeding players isn't because of PvP meta, as a mater of fact it's actually one of the best things going for it right now in the expansion. Fun fact for people that don't play WoW they purposefully neutered the reward output for PVE/M+/Raids(and even nerfed gear level to boot) so you get less loot overall for completing them, which is why the valor system got put in place(even though it's pretty tedious if you're doing them through callings). PVP gearing on the other hand is the best source for gear right now because they have a vendor you can buy gear from and upgrade, for honor(currency), then if you want to push for higher end gear you do rated and get rated pieces of gear which you can upgrade by pushing your rating via rated Arena/Battlegrounds and using both honor and another currency from ranked (conquest).

    Another reason why WoW is bleeding players is because there's nothing to do for the next 4 months since 9.1 isn't coming until then, and maybe a contributing factor, but blizzard is pushing out the way you buy game time if you're not running a sub. I get the feeling you don't play WoW pvp very much and just use the easiest thing that was complained about a few months ago. Fun fact too about convoke it becomes less effective at nuking people down with more targets to hit it can be LoS'd, and a 3 minute cooldown that can be interrupted. My druid main friend especially hates fighting Shamans with the earth elemental pet. You'll bring Paladins, Rogues and Druids into this but why don't you bring up Windwalker Monks, Arms Warriors, Shadow priests, and Fire mages Ele shamans? Wonder what your opinion on all those are?

    Gw2's combat system is vastly superior to WoW's system, twitch based gameplay also works here because on top of the number of defensive tools in your arsenal/build. you also have the baseline defensive of directional evasion (haha just dodge lmao) as much people like to meme about that because of a high burst meta back then , it's an essential tool to surviving pvp situations. Gw2 combat is hard, your gear grind is through knowledge(via classes, interactions, understanding your own class) and learning the animations, Not to mention nitt picking this detail from WoW , in Gw2 things won't hit you unless you're actually within their striking range, or projectiles actually make contact with you. Final note BFA WoW pvp was total garbage, SL PvP was something I legitimately enjoyed for the time I was playing it, because it didn't feel like a total slog,

    i think ur the one being dishonest, the Arena Forum,s are full of far more complaints about the pvp meta then actually people being positive surrounding it.. and far more quitting stating about the pvp meta. then there are those appraising it.

    they're screeching at blizzard to balance pvp. type nerf convoke into their post search.. i wonder how many posts u'l;l get

  • razaelll.8324razaelll.8324 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2021

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    Maybe if they're afk Glass Cannon Eles, but for regular players? Not really, they don't die even if they use their active defense poorly.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    "Heavy damage comps" are rarely used because they don't exist. The highest a glass cannon can do is medium damage.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    They can't. A thief will have a hard time bursting someone for even 50% of their HP (and will usually have to be content with 25-35% as a glass cannon), and Mesmer can only just barely crack 50% now. Mesmer wasn't played since February ever, for a reason.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    If the alternative is to keep increasing powerdip, hurting the game more and more, thats still worth it. Alternatively admit the february megapatch was an unmitigated disaster, and revert everything since and including it.

    What you talking? I'm a revenant using the current renegade build and I've had a thief kill me in seconds. And that isn't even as a glass cannon build lol

    Gonna call hard doubt on that.

    You say 5k. Yet there's proof there's a thief build that can do 11k. The reason it isn't used is because they'd get blown up seconds after using it if another enemy showed up.

    There isnt. One guy did the math, but his math had a number of errors, in reality the max you can do realistically is around 8k with a completely unplayable build that will almost always do a lot less damage because its damage modifiers turn off.

    The current renegade build has 16922 health. Glass cannon mesmer as 15k hp.

    The Renegade build also has an extra 600 armour, and a number of damage reduction traits. On you, the standard 5k backstab turns into a 3k backstab. Hence the hard doubt.

    Your looking at classes that even Ur thief damage can 3 shot.

    Lets ignore that Renegade can't be 3-shot, or even remotely. There is one other issue. Thief can't use backstab more than once per fight, realistically. Almost all of their damage comes from that. They can "3-shot" you in the same sense a Warrior can 3-shot you with 3 eviscerates. In reality, thief does a 5k burst, and then does probably around 2k DPS before running away.

    If your three shotting people. U aren't "medium damage"..

    Good that no one is, and not even remotely.

    The problem is how hard some of these builds can bunker that's the issue. Not the damage output.

    The damage output is the issue, most builds arent even bunkering that much.

    I've been dropped by thief's very quickly several times there's no hard doubt about it. The games pace feels pretty fast most situations

    Once again, with your build, Im gonna call doubt. Even the glassiest thief, fighting you when youre not fighting back, will probably need 10+ seconds to kill you. If you fight back, they cant kill you at all. So your idea of "being dropped by thieves quickly" is nonsense. Unless you meant to add "when I was on 20% hp". The game pace feels glacially slow in all situations. CMC even mentioned it in the patch notes as their big problem.

    We don't need to run around with every proffession 2 shot bursting one another. That's not "skillful". Being able to spam 1 faster then another player just means u can play a flashy game of snap.

    Thats the beauty of it though. That isnt what happened. What we had was the threat of being 2-touched. But you rarely ever got 2-touched. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute. Its much like fighting games. High damage forces you to play as cleanly as possible with as few mistakes as possible, if you make a mistake, you eat a lot of damage. That is skillful. Its why fighting games are such a hard genre. Now? You can make mistake after mistake, since damage is so low, you cant really be punished for that. And since damage is so low, you just spam off cooldown. That is indeed skillless.

    If your butchering people faster then they can react. It's no longer skillful. And it seems like that's what you want in the game which is ridiculous.

    Again, didnt really happen, the threat was there, but it was just a threat.

    WoW is currently quite litterally bleeding to death currently for introducing the PvP meta you proclaim this game needs.

    I dont play WoW, but Im gonna go out on a limb and guess that youre completely misrepresenting the situation. Aaaand its not. Seems the general consensus is that the meta isnt ideal, but its better than the low-damage tank meta they had before by a mile. Gee, I wonder why.

    Plus, yknow, GW2 PvP is currently quite literally bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta you proclaimed this game needs.

    Didn't say the game needed the current meta. And no it isn't bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta.

    If you believe this games biggest reason for quitting is it's PvP meta your wrong I'm afraid.

    I said the games PvP, not the game in general.

    In WoW the reason the PvP meta is killing the game is because BiS gearing for PvE content is currently earnt by PVP.

    Which is an issue with the design, not the PvP inherently.

    I am not misrepresenting the problem. Lol. WoW on SL launch was heavily over the Top. As the characters were balanced with borrowed power in mind. Borrowed power which hadn't been unlocked.

    There's a litteral video taking the p*ss out of WoWs SL pvp because of how one shotty it is.

    And there are many more of people enjoying it, and many more of people dunking on the low damage metas before because of how trash they are.

    And my build is the build on metabattle lol. I dunno how far up the PvP ladder you are. But I'm afraid your gonna have to accept the fact that yea maybe Ur correct under perfectly played circumstances these classes aren't doing this.

    Again, this isnt a matter of gameplay. Its straight up not possible. If you're playing the metabattle renegade build, backstab will hit you for around 3k-3.5k. Then, his highest damage skill will be shadowshot, at at most 2k a pop, and he can use it twice. And then he just has autoattacks, which hits for around 2.2k over 1.68 seconds. So if within 3 seconds, he can barely take you down to 50% if you do literally nothing, how is it killing you "within seconds".

    Take a silver/gold game and these players aren't playing perfectly. And mistakes or lack of utilising defensives properly will mean u die faster.

    They used to mean that. Nowadays, they dont. You can make mistakes as you wont, you still wont really die outside of being outnumbered.

    And no. WoW has a certain population of the playerbase who like the current what they call "fast meta". And it isn't. WoWs lead Dev went on call with one of the bigger wow players and said it's OTT but they don't want to overnerf it.

    WoW isn't "fast meta" it's become twitch reaction based. Something a mmorpg litterally should NEVER be introducing.

    If that is the case, its an easy fix. But what I do know, is that the by far most hated, most unpopular metas in WoW are the low-damage ones like we have in GW2 right now. The ones considered the most skillless.

    Go look up WoW Boomkin PvP convoke the spirits.

    This ability fires 16 spells at full damage over 3 seconds at 0 resource usuage.. you can also manage it as it won't target CC'd players so can cc one and then convoke the other for a strong ST burst.

    Look up the 3 rogue Arena team.

    The team that is considered so bad, its not even tiered? Great example.

    Really? 61% profit loss, 50% player loss, forums on litteral fire?

    Do u read arena forums on wow? Because I do.

    Clearly not if you think triple rogue is anything more than a garbage-tier meme team.

    "meme" team playing at the highest rating .... imagine if a 5 scourge team was at AT finals ...

    8.3 was a "fast meta". SL is a twitch reaction 1 shot burst roulette. The vast majority think it needs fixing. And blizzard are also addressing it. Just not fast enough.

    The vast majority also still think its significantly better than low damage metas.

    I wonder what are your statistic which prove that "vast" majority think its better? WoW pvp is terrible at the moment and many many people left (me included) and are leaving because of it and because of the LFG and gearing systems. According to some statistics 42% of WoW's player base left the game in the last few months

    Fights in gw2 are like 20 seconds long in most cases that I've experienced. While in wow Ur looking at 10 minute duals in wow.

    Fights in GW2 last 20 seconds if one player is outnumbered. If neither is outnumbered, they can easily last an infinite amount of time with no resolution.

    Wows "slow meta" which was dampening
    And it was 1000x worse then gw2 is currently.

    I'm a wow player lol. If I felt the game was that slow paced. I'd likely notice given the fact I experience both.

    WoW has had metas as slow as GW2s current meta before as well. They were hated. Because they're trash.

    WoW slow metas are much much worse and borring than gw2 "slow" meta.
    1. in WOW you are doing some noticeable damage only when you have your CDs and most of the damage CD are 45+ seconds cooldown which makes the game play slow and just about trading CDs.

    No ones saying gw2 PvP is perfect. Spoiler no games is. But it ain't that bad either. And removing bunker builds gets what u want anyway.

    It is that bad. If it wasnt, it wouldnt have had so many players leave that matchmaking fails to work properly. And no, it doesnt. Because some of the "bunker" builds have just been regular glass cannon builds with just the survivability they get from skills and heal skills. And that was too much. Nerf that, and you just further reduce skills.

    Saying "It is that bad. " does not make it bad, it only show that you dont like it, in my opinion GW2 pvp is awesome , of course there are some issues which need to be addressed , but its far from bad

    Once again, with your build, Im gonna call doubt. Even the glassiest thief, fighting you when youre not fighting back, will probably need 10+ seconds to kill you. If you fight back, they cant kill you at all. So your idea of "being dropped by thieves quickly" is nonsense

    I play mainly core condy necro and thief can drop me in 4-5 seconds if i dont use my utility and defensives properly, which happened to me multiple times.

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2021

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Lucentfir.7430 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    Maybe if they're afk Glass Cannon Eles, but for regular players? Not really, they don't die even if they use their active defense poorly.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    "Heavy damage comps" are rarely used because they don't exist. The highest a glass cannon can do is medium damage.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    They can't. A thief will have a hard time bursting someone for even 50% of their HP (and will usually have to be content with 25-35% as a glass cannon), and Mesmer can only just barely crack 50% now. Mesmer wasn't played since February ever, for a reason.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    If the alternative is to keep increasing powerdip, hurting the game more and more, thats still worth it. Alternatively admit the february megapatch was an unmitigated disaster, and revert everything since and including it.

    What you talking? I'm a revenant using the current renegade build and I've had a thief kill me in seconds. And that isn't even as a glass cannon build lol

    Gonna call hard doubt on that.

    You say 5k. Yet there's proof there's a thief build that can do 11k. The reason it isn't used is because they'd get blown up seconds after using it if another enemy showed up.

    There isnt. One guy did the math, but his math had a number of errors, in reality the max you can do realistically is around 8k with a completely unplayable build that will almost always do a lot less damage because its damage modifiers turn off.

    The current renegade build has 16922 health. Glass cannon mesmer as 15k hp.

    The Renegade build also has an extra 600 armour, and a number of damage reduction traits. On you, the standard 5k backstab turns into a 3k backstab. Hence the hard doubt.

    Your looking at classes that even Ur thief damage can 3 shot.

    Lets ignore that Renegade can't be 3-shot, or even remotely. There is one other issue. Thief can't use backstab more than once per fight, realistically. Almost all of their damage comes from that. They can "3-shot" you in the same sense a Warrior can 3-shot you with 3 eviscerates. In reality, thief does a 5k burst, and then does probably around 2k DPS before running away.

    If your three shotting people. U aren't "medium damage"..

    Good that no one is, and not even remotely.

    The problem is how hard some of these builds can bunker that's the issue. Not the damage output.

    The damage output is the issue, most builds arent even bunkering that much.

    I've been dropped by thief's very quickly several times there's no hard doubt about it. The games pace feels pretty fast most situations

    Once again, with your build, Im gonna call doubt. Even the glassiest thief, fighting you when youre not fighting back, will probably need 10+ seconds to kill you. If you fight back, they cant kill you at all. So your idea of "being dropped by thieves quickly" is nonsense. Unless you meant to add "when I was on 20% hp". The game pace feels glacially slow in all situations. CMC even mentioned it in the patch notes as their big problem.

    We don't need to run around with every proffession 2 shot bursting one another. That's not "skillful". Being able to spam 1 faster then another player just means u can play a flashy game of snap.

    Thats the beauty of it though. That isnt what happened. What we had was the threat of being 2-touched. But you rarely ever got 2-touched. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute. Its much like fighting games. High damage forces you to play as cleanly as possible with as few mistakes as possible, if you make a mistake, you eat a lot of damage. That is skillful. Its why fighting games are such a hard genre. Now? You can make mistake after mistake, since damage is so low, you cant really be punished for that. And since damage is so low, you just spam off cooldown. That is indeed skillless.

    If your butchering people faster then they can react. It's no longer skillful. And it seems like that's what you want in the game which is ridiculous.

    Again, didnt really happen, the threat was there, but it was just a threat.

    WoW is currently quite litterally bleeding to death currently for introducing the PvP meta you proclaim this game needs.

    I dont play WoW, but Im gonna go out on a limb and guess that youre completely misrepresenting the situation. Aaaand its not. Seems the general consensus is that the meta isnt ideal, but its better than the low-damage tank meta they had before by a mile. Gee, I wonder why.

    Plus, yknow, GW2 PvP is currently quite literally bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta you proclaimed this game needs.

    Didn't say the game needed the current meta. And no it isn't bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta.

    If you believe this games biggest reason for quitting is it's PvP meta your wrong I'm afraid.

    In WoW the reason the PvP meta is killing the game is because BiS gearing for PvE content is currently earnt by PVP.

    I am not misrepresenting the problem. Lol. WoW on SL launch was heavily over the Top. As the characters were balanced with borrowed power in mind. Borrowed power which hadn't been unlocked.

    There's a litteral video taking the p*ss out of WoWs SL pvp because of how one shotty it is.

    And my build is the build on metabattle lol. I dunno how far up the PvP ladder you are. But I'm afraid your gonna have to accept the fact that yea maybe Ur correct under perfectly played circumstances these classes aren't doing this.

    Take a silver/gold game and these players aren't playing perfectly. And mistakes or lack of utilising defensives properly will mean u die faster.

    And no. WoW has a certain population of the playerbase who like the current what they call "fast meta". And it isn't. WoWs lead Dev went on call with one of the bigger wow players and said it's OTT but they don't want to overnerf it.

    WoW isn't "fast meta" it's become twitch reaction based. Something a mmorpg litterally should NEVER be introducing.

    Go look up WoW Boomkin PvP convoke the spirits.

    This ability fires 16 spells at full damage over 3 seconds at 0 resource usuage.. you can also manage it as it won't target CC'd players so can cc one and then convoke the other for a strong ST burst.

    Look up the 3 rogue Arena team.

    And definitely look up the paladin + Boomkin combo.

    This isn't misrepresented. Maybe that's how you want a game to look like. But insta dying before even reaching a target isn't fun.

    Why are you being dishonest? WoW bleeding players isn't because of PvP meta, as a mater of fact it's actually one of the best things going for it right now in the expansion. Fun fact for people that don't play WoW they purposefully neutered the reward output for PVE/M+/Raids(and even nerfed gear level to boot) so you get less loot overall for completing them, which is why the valor system got put in place(even though it's pretty tedious if you're doing them through callings). PVP gearing on the other hand is the best source for gear right now because they have a vendor you can buy gear from and upgrade, for honor(currency), then if you want to push for higher end gear you do rated and get rated pieces of gear which you can upgrade by pushing your rating via rated Arena/Battlegrounds and using both honor and another currency from ranked (conquest).

    Another reason why WoW is bleeding players is because there's nothing to do for the next 4 months since 9.1 isn't coming until then, and maybe a contributing factor, but blizzard is pushing out the way you buy game time if you're not running a sub. I get the feeling you don't play WoW pvp very much and just use the easiest thing that was complained about a few months ago. Fun fact too about convoke it becomes less effective at nuking people down with more targets to hit it can be LoS'd, and a 3 minute cooldown that can be interrupted. My druid main friend especially hates fighting Shamans with the earth elemental pet. You'll bring Paladins, Rogues and Druids into this but why don't you bring up Windwalker Monks, Arms Warriors, Shadow priests, and Fire mages Ele shamans? Wonder what your opinion on all those are?

    Gw2's combat system is vastly superior to WoW's system, twitch based gameplay also works here because on top of the number of defensive tools in your arsenal/build. you also have the baseline defensive of directional evasion (haha just dodge lmao) as much people like to meme about that because of a high burst meta back then , it's an essential tool to surviving pvp situations. Gw2 combat is hard, your gear grind is through knowledge(via classes, interactions, understanding your own class) and learning the animations, Not to mention nitt picking this detail from WoW , in Gw2 things won't hit you unless you're actually within their striking range, or projectiles actually make contact with you. Final note BFA WoW pvp was total garbage, SL PvP was something I legitimately enjoyed for the time I was playing it, because it didn't feel like a total slog,

    i think ur the one being dishonest, the Arena Forum,s are full of far more complaints about the pvp meta then actually people being positive surrounding it.. and far more quitting stating about the pvp meta. then there are those appraising it.

    they're screeching at blizzard to balance pvp. type nerf convoke into their post search.. i wonder how many posts u'l;l get

    He whined that theif could do 17k burst back then , while mesmers could do 24k
    He tried to go into circullar conversation , that the Problem with the game was with Memsers burst + 100-nades that where un-avoidable , and the community should whine about then , instead than Thief .
    Can you imagine if the company saw theses converstions and re-thought about the "dps arm race" and tried to scale it down ?:P
    Tell him to use Power Rev/Necro ,if he wants more burst, just like the victims should play Thief to learn how to counter Thief

    edit or Egninners for decapp .
    kitten... like Druids and Revs ,enginner can still get tanky and be a decap bot , but why the 2 other where nerfed ? too tanky ?
    (the problem it too many button >>can be used for every scenario ,but in teamfight >>many button + stress from 3 enemies ,panics you)
    Maybe they should get a "spsll" that makes the Points circles invisible ?
    The enemy should be mentally "pressuded" to stay as much on the mid and eat your aoes , or make mini-mistakes and occasioanlly stepp out the point , allowing you to mini-contest
    Or they become invisible + 20% smaller (debuff -in that area) , or some invisible black spots/"gaps" , where if you stand on ,you stop contesting (hopefully the enemy wont 'metally" for ce you to go in that direction and you wont stuneed-cced on that location ) .

    Sorry Ncsoft , that agreement was not made "(
    Nov

  • Daddy.8125Daddy.8125 Member ✭✭

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    Maybe if they're afk Glass Cannon Eles, but for regular players? Not really, they don't die even if they use their active defense poorly.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    "Heavy damage comps" are rarely used because they don't exist. The highest a glass cannon can do is medium damage.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    They can't. A thief will have a hard time bursting someone for even 50% of their HP (and will usually have to be content with 25-35% as a glass cannon), and Mesmer can only just barely crack 50% now. Mesmer wasn't played since February ever, for a reason.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    If the alternative is to keep increasing powerdip, hurting the game more and more, thats still worth it. Alternatively admit the february megapatch was an unmitigated disaster, and revert everything since and including it.

    What you talking? I'm a revenant using the current renegade build and I've had a thief kill me in seconds. And that isn't even as a glass cannon build lol

    Gonna call hard doubt on that.

    You say 5k. Yet there's proof there's a thief build that can do 11k. The reason it isn't used is because they'd get blown up seconds after using it if another enemy showed up.

    There isnt. One guy did the math, but his math had a number of errors, in reality the max you can do realistically is around 8k with a completely unplayable build that will almost always do a lot less damage because its damage modifiers turn off.

    The current renegade build has 16922 health. Glass cannon mesmer as 15k hp.

    The Renegade build also has an extra 600 armour, and a number of damage reduction traits. On you, the standard 5k backstab turns into a 3k backstab. Hence the hard doubt.

    Your looking at classes that even Ur thief damage can 3 shot.

    Lets ignore that Renegade can't be 3-shot, or even remotely. There is one other issue. Thief can't use backstab more than once per fight, realistically. Almost all of their damage comes from that. They can "3-shot" you in the same sense a Warrior can 3-shot you with 3 eviscerates. In reality, thief does a 5k burst, and then does probably around 2k DPS before running away.

    If your three shotting people. U aren't "medium damage"..

    Good that no one is, and not even remotely.

    The problem is how hard some of these builds can bunker that's the issue. Not the damage output.

    The damage output is the issue, most builds arent even bunkering that much.

    I've been dropped by thief's very quickly several times there's no hard doubt about it. The games pace feels pretty fast most situations

    Once again, with your build, Im gonna call doubt. Even the glassiest thief, fighting you when youre not fighting back, will probably need 10+ seconds to kill you. If you fight back, they cant kill you at all. So your idea of "being dropped by thieves quickly" is nonsense. Unless you meant to add "when I was on 20% hp". The game pace feels glacially slow in all situations. CMC even mentioned it in the patch notes as their big problem.

    We don't need to run around with every proffession 2 shot bursting one another. That's not "skillful". Being able to spam 1 faster then another player just means u can play a flashy game of snap.

    Thats the beauty of it though. That isnt what happened. What we had was the threat of being 2-touched. But you rarely ever got 2-touched. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute. Its much like fighting games. High damage forces you to play as cleanly as possible with as few mistakes as possible, if you make a mistake, you eat a lot of damage. That is skillful. Its why fighting games are such a hard genre. Now? You can make mistake after mistake, since damage is so low, you cant really be punished for that. And since damage is so low, you just spam off cooldown. That is indeed skillless.

    If your butchering people faster then they can react. It's no longer skillful. And it seems like that's what you want in the game which is ridiculous.

    Again, didnt really happen, the threat was there, but it was just a threat.

    WoW is currently quite litterally bleeding to death currently for introducing the PvP meta you proclaim this game needs.

    I dont play WoW, but Im gonna go out on a limb and guess that youre completely misrepresenting the situation. Aaaand its not. Seems the general consensus is that the meta isnt ideal, but its better than the low-damage tank meta they had before by a mile. Gee, I wonder why.

    Plus, yknow, GW2 PvP is currently quite literally bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta you proclaimed this game needs.

    Didn't say the game needed the current meta. And no it isn't bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta.

    If you believe this games biggest reason for quitting is it's PvP meta your wrong I'm afraid.

    I said the games PvP, not the game in general.

    In WoW the reason the PvP meta is killing the game is because BiS gearing for PvE content is currently earnt by PVP.

    Which is an issue with the design, not the PvP inherently.

    I am not misrepresenting the problem. Lol. WoW on SL launch was heavily over the Top. As the characters were balanced with borrowed power in mind. Borrowed power which hadn't been unlocked.

    There's a litteral video taking the p*ss out of WoWs SL pvp because of how one shotty it is.

    And there are many more of people enjoying it, and many more of people dunking on the low damage metas before because of how trash they are.

    And my build is the build on metabattle lol. I dunno how far up the PvP ladder you are. But I'm afraid your gonna have to accept the fact that yea maybe Ur correct under perfectly played circumstances these classes aren't doing this.

    Again, this isnt a matter of gameplay. Its straight up not possible. If you're playing the metabattle renegade build, backstab will hit you for around 3k-3.5k. Then, his highest damage skill will be shadowshot, at at most 2k a pop, and he can use it twice. And then he just has autoattacks, which hits for around 2.2k over 1.68 seconds. So if within 3 seconds, he can barely take you down to 50% if you do literally nothing, how is it killing you "within seconds".

    Take a silver/gold game and these players aren't playing perfectly. And mistakes or lack of utilising defensives properly will mean u die faster.

    They used to mean that. Nowadays, they dont. You can make mistakes as you wont, you still wont really die outside of being outnumbered.

    And no. WoW has a certain population of the playerbase who like the current what they call "fast meta". And it isn't. WoWs lead Dev went on call with one of the bigger wow players and said it's OTT but they don't want to overnerf it.

    WoW isn't "fast meta" it's become twitch reaction based. Something a mmorpg litterally should NEVER be introducing.

    If that is the case, its an easy fix. But what I do know, is that the by far most hated, most unpopular metas in WoW are the low-damage ones like we have in GW2 right now. The ones considered the most skillless.

    Go look up WoW Boomkin PvP convoke the spirits.

    This ability fires 16 spells at full damage over 3 seconds at 0 resource usuage.. you can also manage it as it won't target CC'd players so can cc one and then convoke the other for a strong ST burst.

    Look up the 3 rogue Arena team.

    The team that is considered so bad, its not even tiered? Great example.

    Really? 61% profit loss, 50% player loss, forums on litteral fire?

    Do u read arena forums on wow? Because I do.

    Clearly not if you think triple rogue is anything more than a garbage-tier meme team.

    "meme" team playing at the highest rating .... imagine if a 5 scourge team was at AT finals ...

    8.3 was a "fast meta". SL is a twitch reaction 1 shot burst roulette. The vast majority think it needs fixing. And blizzard are also addressing it. Just not fast enough.

    The vast majority also still think its significantly better than low damage metas.

    I wonder what are your statistic which prove that "vast" majority think its better? WoW pvp is terrible at the moment an many many people left (me included) and are leaving because of it and because of the LFG and gearing systems.

    Fights in gw2 are like 20 seconds long in most cases that I've experienced. While in wow Ur looking at 10 minute duals in wow.

    Fights in GW2 last 20 seconds if one player is outnumbered. If neither is outnumbered, they can easily last an infinite amount of time with no resolution.

    Wows "slow meta" which was dampening
    And it was 1000x worse then gw2 is currently.

    I'm a wow player lol. If I felt the game was that slow paced. I'd likely notice given the fact I experience both.

    WoW has had metas as slow as GW2s current meta before as well. They were hated. Because they're trash.

    WoW slow metas are much much worse and borring than gw2 "slow" meta

    No ones saying gw2 PvP is perfect. Spoiler no games is. But it ain't that bad either. And removing bunker builds gets what u want anyway.

    It is that bad. If it wasnt, it wouldnt have had so many players leave that matchmaking fails to work properly. And no, it doesnt. Because some of the "bunker" builds have just been regular glass cannon builds with just the survivability they get from skills and heal skills. And that was too much. Nerf that, and you just further reduce skills.

    Saying "It is that bad. " does not make it bad, it only show that you dont like it

    Theres vastly more proof that Players Dislike SL then there is supporting the concept that players do like it, the games Hemoraging massively. Ion has Stated he thinks its OTT. Engagement is Dropping from the game. the Forums are a absolute kitten of players with arraying complaints and NO ONEs happy with the balancing of current WoW. Litterally. More balancing complaints in 1 patch of SL then there was in over HALF of legion. go Total the numbers if u want.

    Watch Belluar that Tracks numbers, Watch Towliee who gets inside information. People are Mad AF About every part of WoW currently and blizzard are Terrified.

    Ur arguments sound about the same as What was going on in WoW in dampening meta, the problem is. theres a MILE Difference. between being able to 1 v 1 in a Reasonable amount and timer. and Thieves just 2 shotting u from stealth like we see in WoW during Sls inital Release.

    U proclaim they were hated. While SL currently has one of the ALRGEST drops, meaning SLs current systems are by far the QUICKEST TO BE HATED.

    SL did everything PvPers asked for. and its still bleeding HEAVILY. its lost 50% of its playerbase And that numbers only raising, its lost 61% Of Profits, its only raisingf. People on forums Are unhappy with the PvP theres only more names joining that List. Cause guess what. u can only smack a 1 shot macro so many times for a 50/50 on who hit it first before it gets boring AF.

    I’m intentionally ruining other’s arenas and experience in World of Warcraft
    PvP sounds fun /s
    I am done with this
    I tried, I really tried, goodbye game
    Rogues./ game
    Blizz enough
    Die in 0.1 sec - I should line it
    Best frostmage WORLD quitting wow
    Alts unplayable
    April Fools’ over - NERF ROGUES

    Sorry, top posts of the arena Forums going on.. want more? i can give u 5+ Pages of this.. lmfao NO ONES POSTING ANYTHING GOOD, the white knights arent even defending it anymore.

    why do you write this to me mate? i agree that WOW i bad and i left it to play GW2, maybe read my post again?

    think i quoted the wrong player apologises lol.

  • razaelll.8324razaelll.8324 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    Maybe if they're afk Glass Cannon Eles, but for regular players? Not really, they don't die even if they use their active defense poorly.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    "Heavy damage comps" are rarely used because they don't exist. The highest a glass cannon can do is medium damage.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    They can't. A thief will have a hard time bursting someone for even 50% of their HP (and will usually have to be content with 25-35% as a glass cannon), and Mesmer can only just barely crack 50% now. Mesmer wasn't played since February ever, for a reason.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    If the alternative is to keep increasing powerdip, hurting the game more and more, thats still worth it. Alternatively admit the february megapatch was an unmitigated disaster, and revert everything since and including it.

    What you talking? I'm a revenant using the current renegade build and I've had a thief kill me in seconds. And that isn't even as a glass cannon build lol

    Gonna call hard doubt on that.

    You say 5k. Yet there's proof there's a thief build that can do 11k. The reason it isn't used is because they'd get blown up seconds after using it if another enemy showed up.

    There isnt. One guy did the math, but his math had a number of errors, in reality the max you can do realistically is around 8k with a completely unplayable build that will almost always do a lot less damage because its damage modifiers turn off.

    The current renegade build has 16922 health. Glass cannon mesmer as 15k hp.

    The Renegade build also has an extra 600 armour, and a number of damage reduction traits. On you, the standard 5k backstab turns into a 3k backstab. Hence the hard doubt.

    Your looking at classes that even Ur thief damage can 3 shot.

    Lets ignore that Renegade can't be 3-shot, or even remotely. There is one other issue. Thief can't use backstab more than once per fight, realistically. Almost all of their damage comes from that. They can "3-shot" you in the same sense a Warrior can 3-shot you with 3 eviscerates. In reality, thief does a 5k burst, and then does probably around 2k DPS before running away.

    If your three shotting people. U aren't "medium damage"..

    Good that no one is, and not even remotely.

    The problem is how hard some of these builds can bunker that's the issue. Not the damage output.

    The damage output is the issue, most builds arent even bunkering that much.

    I've been dropped by thief's very quickly several times there's no hard doubt about it. The games pace feels pretty fast most situations

    Once again, with your build, Im gonna call doubt. Even the glassiest thief, fighting you when youre not fighting back, will probably need 10+ seconds to kill you. If you fight back, they cant kill you at all. So your idea of "being dropped by thieves quickly" is nonsense. Unless you meant to add "when I was on 20% hp". The game pace feels glacially slow in all situations. CMC even mentioned it in the patch notes as their big problem.

    We don't need to run around with every proffession 2 shot bursting one another. That's not "skillful". Being able to spam 1 faster then another player just means u can play a flashy game of snap.

    Thats the beauty of it though. That isnt what happened. What we had was the threat of being 2-touched. But you rarely ever got 2-touched. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute. Its much like fighting games. High damage forces you to play as cleanly as possible with as few mistakes as possible, if you make a mistake, you eat a lot of damage. That is skillful. Its why fighting games are such a hard genre. Now? You can make mistake after mistake, since damage is so low, you cant really be punished for that. And since damage is so low, you just spam off cooldown. That is indeed skillless.

    If your butchering people faster then they can react. It's no longer skillful. And it seems like that's what you want in the game which is ridiculous.

    Again, didnt really happen, the threat was there, but it was just a threat.

    WoW is currently quite litterally bleeding to death currently for introducing the PvP meta you proclaim this game needs.

    I dont play WoW, but Im gonna go out on a limb and guess that youre completely misrepresenting the situation. Aaaand its not. Seems the general consensus is that the meta isnt ideal, but its better than the low-damage tank meta they had before by a mile. Gee, I wonder why.

    Plus, yknow, GW2 PvP is currently quite literally bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta you proclaimed this game needs.

    Didn't say the game needed the current meta. And no it isn't bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta.

    If you believe this games biggest reason for quitting is it's PvP meta your wrong I'm afraid.

    I said the games PvP, not the game in general.

    In WoW the reason the PvP meta is killing the game is because BiS gearing for PvE content is currently earnt by PVP.

    Which is an issue with the design, not the PvP inherently.

    I am not misrepresenting the problem. Lol. WoW on SL launch was heavily over the Top. As the characters were balanced with borrowed power in mind. Borrowed power which hadn't been unlocked.

    There's a litteral video taking the p*ss out of WoWs SL pvp because of how one shotty it is.

    And there are many more of people enjoying it, and many more of people dunking on the low damage metas before because of how trash they are.

    And my build is the build on metabattle lol. I dunno how far up the PvP ladder you are. But I'm afraid your gonna have to accept the fact that yea maybe Ur correct under perfectly played circumstances these classes aren't doing this.

    Again, this isnt a matter of gameplay. Its straight up not possible. If you're playing the metabattle renegade build, backstab will hit you for around 3k-3.5k. Then, his highest damage skill will be shadowshot, at at most 2k a pop, and he can use it twice. And then he just has autoattacks, which hits for around 2.2k over 1.68 seconds. So if within 3 seconds, he can barely take you down to 50% if you do literally nothing, how is it killing you "within seconds".

    Take a silver/gold game and these players aren't playing perfectly. And mistakes or lack of utilising defensives properly will mean u die faster.

    They used to mean that. Nowadays, they dont. You can make mistakes as you wont, you still wont really die outside of being outnumbered.

    And no. WoW has a certain population of the playerbase who like the current what they call "fast meta". And it isn't. WoWs lead Dev went on call with one of the bigger wow players and said it's OTT but they don't want to overnerf it.

    WoW isn't "fast meta" it's become twitch reaction based. Something a mmorpg litterally should NEVER be introducing.

    If that is the case, its an easy fix. But what I do know, is that the by far most hated, most unpopular metas in WoW are the low-damage ones like we have in GW2 right now. The ones considered the most skillless.

    Go look up WoW Boomkin PvP convoke the spirits.

    This ability fires 16 spells at full damage over 3 seconds at 0 resource usuage.. you can also manage it as it won't target CC'd players so can cc one and then convoke the other for a strong ST burst.

    Look up the 3 rogue Arena team.

    The team that is considered so bad, its not even tiered? Great example.

    Really? 61% profit loss, 50% player loss, forums on litteral fire?

    Do u read arena forums on wow? Because I do.

    Clearly not if you think triple rogue is anything more than a garbage-tier meme team.

    "meme" team playing at the highest rating .... imagine if a 5 scourge team was at AT finals ...

    8.3 was a "fast meta". SL is a twitch reaction 1 shot burst roulette. The vast majority think it needs fixing. And blizzard are also addressing it. Just not fast enough.

    The vast majority also still think its significantly better than low damage metas.

    I wonder what are your statistic which prove that "vast" majority think its better? WoW pvp is terrible at the moment an many many people left (me included) and are leaving because of it and because of the LFG and gearing systems.

    Fights in gw2 are like 20 seconds long in most cases that I've experienced. While in wow Ur looking at 10 minute duals in wow.

    Fights in GW2 last 20 seconds if one player is outnumbered. If neither is outnumbered, they can easily last an infinite amount of time with no resolution.

    Wows "slow meta" which was dampening
    And it was 1000x worse then gw2 is currently.

    I'm a wow player lol. If I felt the game was that slow paced. I'd likely notice given the fact I experience both.

    WoW has had metas as slow as GW2s current meta before as well. They were hated. Because they're trash.

    WoW slow metas are much much worse and borring than gw2 "slow" meta

    No ones saying gw2 PvP is perfect. Spoiler no games is. But it ain't that bad either. And removing bunker builds gets what u want anyway.

    It is that bad. If it wasnt, it wouldnt have had so many players leave that matchmaking fails to work properly. And no, it doesnt. Because some of the "bunker" builds have just been regular glass cannon builds with just the survivability they get from skills and heal skills. And that was too much. Nerf that, and you just further reduce skills.

    Saying "It is that bad. " does not make it bad, it only show that you dont like it

    Theres vastly more proof that Players Dislike SL then there is supporting the concept that players do like it, the games Hemoraging massively. Ion has Stated he thinks its OTT. Engagement is Dropping from the game. the Forums are a absolute kitten of players with arraying complaints and NO ONEs happy with the balancing of current WoW. Litterally. More balancing complaints in 1 patch of SL then there was in over HALF of legion. go Total the numbers if u want.

    Watch Belluar that Tracks numbers, Watch Towliee who gets inside information. People are Mad AF About every part of WoW currently and blizzard are Terrified.

    Ur arguments sound about the same as What was going on in WoW in dampening meta, the problem is. theres a MILE Difference. between being able to 1 v 1 in a Reasonable amount and timer. and Thieves just 2 shotting u from stealth like we see in WoW during Sls inital Release.

    U proclaim they were hated. While SL currently has one of the ALRGEST drops, meaning SLs current systems are by far the QUICKEST TO BE HATED.

    SL did everything PvPers asked for. and its still bleeding HEAVILY. its lost 50% of its playerbase And that numbers only raising, its lost 61% Of Profits, its only raisingf. People on forums Are unhappy with the PvP theres only more names joining that List. Cause guess what. u can only smack a 1 shot macro so many times for a 50/50 on who hit it first before it gets boring AF.

    I’m intentionally ruining other’s arenas and experience in World of Warcraft
    PvP sounds fun /s
    I am done with this
    I tried, I really tried, goodbye game
    Rogues./ game
    Blizz enough
    Die in 0.1 sec - I should line it
    Best frostmage WORLD quitting wow
    Alts unplayable
    April Fools’ over - NERF ROGUES

    Sorry, top posts of the arena Forums going on.. want more? i can give u 5+ Pages of this.. lmfao NO ONES POSTING ANYTHING GOOD, the white knights arent even defending it anymore.

    why do you write this to me mate? i agree that WOW i bad and i left it to play GW2, maybe read my post again?

    think i quoted the wrong player apologises lol.

    no worries mate, i think you wanted to quote the same guy i did :D

  • Daddy.8125Daddy.8125 Member ✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Lucentfir.7430 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    Maybe if they're afk Glass Cannon Eles, but for regular players? Not really, they don't die even if they use their active defense poorly.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    "Heavy damage comps" are rarely used because they don't exist. The highest a glass cannon can do is medium damage.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    They can't. A thief will have a hard time bursting someone for even 50% of their HP (and will usually have to be content with 25-35% as a glass cannon), and Mesmer can only just barely crack 50% now. Mesmer wasn't played since February ever, for a reason.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    If the alternative is to keep increasing powerdip, hurting the game more and more, thats still worth it. Alternatively admit the february megapatch was an unmitigated disaster, and revert everything since and including it.

    What you talking? I'm a revenant using the current renegade build and I've had a thief kill me in seconds. And that isn't even as a glass cannon build lol

    Gonna call hard doubt on that.

    You say 5k. Yet there's proof there's a thief build that can do 11k. The reason it isn't used is because they'd get blown up seconds after using it if another enemy showed up.

    There isnt. One guy did the math, but his math had a number of errors, in reality the max you can do realistically is around 8k with a completely unplayable build that will almost always do a lot less damage because its damage modifiers turn off.

    The current renegade build has 16922 health. Glass cannon mesmer as 15k hp.

    The Renegade build also has an extra 600 armour, and a number of damage reduction traits. On you, the standard 5k backstab turns into a 3k backstab. Hence the hard doubt.

    Your looking at classes that even Ur thief damage can 3 shot.

    Lets ignore that Renegade can't be 3-shot, or even remotely. There is one other issue. Thief can't use backstab more than once per fight, realistically. Almost all of their damage comes from that. They can "3-shot" you in the same sense a Warrior can 3-shot you with 3 eviscerates. In reality, thief does a 5k burst, and then does probably around 2k DPS before running away.

    If your three shotting people. U aren't "medium damage"..

    Good that no one is, and not even remotely.

    The problem is how hard some of these builds can bunker that's the issue. Not the damage output.

    The damage output is the issue, most builds arent even bunkering that much.

    I've been dropped by thief's very quickly several times there's no hard doubt about it. The games pace feels pretty fast most situations

    Once again, with your build, Im gonna call doubt. Even the glassiest thief, fighting you when youre not fighting back, will probably need 10+ seconds to kill you. If you fight back, they cant kill you at all. So your idea of "being dropped by thieves quickly" is nonsense. Unless you meant to add "when I was on 20% hp". The game pace feels glacially slow in all situations. CMC even mentioned it in the patch notes as their big problem.

    We don't need to run around with every proffession 2 shot bursting one another. That's not "skillful". Being able to spam 1 faster then another player just means u can play a flashy game of snap.

    Thats the beauty of it though. That isnt what happened. What we had was the threat of being 2-touched. But you rarely ever got 2-touched. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute. Its much like fighting games. High damage forces you to play as cleanly as possible with as few mistakes as possible, if you make a mistake, you eat a lot of damage. That is skillful. Its why fighting games are such a hard genre. Now? You can make mistake after mistake, since damage is so low, you cant really be punished for that. And since damage is so low, you just spam off cooldown. That is indeed skillless.

    If your butchering people faster then they can react. It's no longer skillful. And it seems like that's what you want in the game which is ridiculous.

    Again, didnt really happen, the threat was there, but it was just a threat.

    WoW is currently quite litterally bleeding to death currently for introducing the PvP meta you proclaim this game needs.

    I dont play WoW, but Im gonna go out on a limb and guess that youre completely misrepresenting the situation. Aaaand its not. Seems the general consensus is that the meta isnt ideal, but its better than the low-damage tank meta they had before by a mile. Gee, I wonder why.

    Plus, yknow, GW2 PvP is currently quite literally bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta you proclaimed this game needs.

    Didn't say the game needed the current meta. And no it isn't bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta.

    If you believe this games biggest reason for quitting is it's PvP meta your wrong I'm afraid.

    In WoW the reason the PvP meta is killing the game is because BiS gearing for PvE content is currently earnt by PVP.

    I am not misrepresenting the problem. Lol. WoW on SL launch was heavily over the Top. As the characters were balanced with borrowed power in mind. Borrowed power which hadn't been unlocked.

    There's a litteral video taking the p*ss out of WoWs SL pvp because of how one shotty it is.

    And my build is the build on metabattle lol. I dunno how far up the PvP ladder you are. But I'm afraid your gonna have to accept the fact that yea maybe Ur correct under perfectly played circumstances these classes aren't doing this.

    Take a silver/gold game and these players aren't playing perfectly. And mistakes or lack of utilising defensives properly will mean u die faster.

    And no. WoW has a certain population of the playerbase who like the current what they call "fast meta". And it isn't. WoWs lead Dev went on call with one of the bigger wow players and said it's OTT but they don't want to overnerf it.

    WoW isn't "fast meta" it's become twitch reaction based. Something a mmorpg litterally should NEVER be introducing.

    Go look up WoW Boomkin PvP convoke the spirits.

    This ability fires 16 spells at full damage over 3 seconds at 0 resource usuage.. you can also manage it as it won't target CC'd players so can cc one and then convoke the other for a strong ST burst.

    Look up the 3 rogue Arena team.

    And definitely look up the paladin + Boomkin combo.

    This isn't misrepresented. Maybe that's how you want a game to look like. But insta dying before even reaching a target isn't fun.

    Why are you being dishonest? WoW bleeding players isn't because of PvP meta, as a mater of fact it's actually one of the best things going for it right now in the expansion. Fun fact for people that don't play WoW they purposefully neutered the reward output for PVE/M+/Raids(and even nerfed gear level to boot) so you get less loot overall for completing them, which is why the valor system got put in place(even though it's pretty tedious if you're doing them through callings). PVP gearing on the other hand is the best source for gear right now because they have a vendor you can buy gear from and upgrade, for honor(currency), then if you want to push for higher end gear you do rated and get rated pieces of gear which you can upgrade by pushing your rating via rated Arena/Battlegrounds and using both honor and another currency from ranked (conquest).

    Another reason why WoW is bleeding players is because there's nothing to do for the next 4 months since 9.1 isn't coming until then, and maybe a contributing factor, but blizzard is pushing out the way you buy game time if you're not running a sub. I get the feeling you don't play WoW pvp very much and just use the easiest thing that was complained about a few months ago. Fun fact too about convoke it becomes less effective at nuking people down with more targets to hit it can be LoS'd, and a 3 minute cooldown that can be interrupted. My druid main friend especially hates fighting Shamans with the earth elemental pet. You'll bring Paladins, Rogues and Druids into this but why don't you bring up Windwalker Monks, Arms Warriors, Shadow priests, and Fire mages Ele shamans? Wonder what your opinion on all those are?

    Gw2's combat system is vastly superior to WoW's system, twitch based gameplay also works here because on top of the number of defensive tools in your arsenal/build. you also have the baseline defensive of directional evasion (haha just dodge lmao) as much people like to meme about that because of a high burst meta back then , it's an essential tool to surviving pvp situations. Gw2 combat is hard, your gear grind is through knowledge(via classes, interactions, understanding your own class) and learning the animations, Not to mention nitt picking this detail from WoW , in Gw2 things won't hit you unless you're actually within their striking range, or projectiles actually make contact with you. Final note BFA WoW pvp was total garbage, SL PvP was something I legitimately enjoyed for the time I was playing it, because it didn't feel like a total slog,

    i think ur the one being dishonest, the Arena Forum,s are full of far more complaints about the pvp meta then actually people being positive surrounding it.. and far more quitting stating about the pvp meta. then there are those appraising it.

    they're screeching at blizzard to balance pvp. type nerf convoke into their post search.. i wonder how many posts u'l;l get

    He whined that theif could do 17k burst back then , while mesmers could do 24k
    He tried to go into circullar conversation , that the Problem with the game was with Memsers burst + 100-nades that where un-avoidable , and the community should whine about then , instead than Thief .
    Can you imagine if the company saw theses converstions and re-thought about the "dps arm race" and tried to scale it down ?:P
    Tell him to use Power Rev/Necro ,if he wants more burst , just like the victims should play Thief to learn how to counter Thief

    That actually doesn't suprise me in the slightest. I find most people want a burst meta back til they find out that their favourite class aren't the ones face rolling each other. And they love to screech it's more "skill based"

    Even tho I'd argue a longer fight is more skill based then one another aslong as the longevity of the fight is down to the ability to utilise the class. Ofcourse if it's just down to classes hitting each other for 0 damage then it'd be a worthwhile case.

    But I'm yet to see fights last that long. I watched plenty of SPVP and more and I'm not seeing anyone suffering the problems they proclaim 🤣

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @razaelll.8324 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    Maybe if they're afk Glass Cannon Eles, but for regular players? Not really, they don't die even if they use their active defense poorly.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    "Heavy damage comps" are rarely used because they don't exist. The highest a glass cannon can do is medium damage.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    They can't. A thief will have a hard time bursting someone for even 50% of their HP (and will usually have to be content with 25-35% as a glass cannon), and Mesmer can only just barely crack 50% now. Mesmer wasn't played since February ever, for a reason.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    If the alternative is to keep increasing powerdip, hurting the game more and more, thats still worth it. Alternatively admit the february megapatch was an unmitigated disaster, and revert everything since and including it.

    What you talking? I'm a revenant using the current renegade build and I've had a thief kill me in seconds. And that isn't even as a glass cannon build lol

    Gonna call hard doubt on that.

    You say 5k. Yet there's proof there's a thief build that can do 11k. The reason it isn't used is because they'd get blown up seconds after using it if another enemy showed up.

    There isnt. One guy did the math, but his math had a number of errors, in reality the max you can do realistically is around 8k with a completely unplayable build that will almost always do a lot less damage because its damage modifiers turn off.

    The current renegade build has 16922 health. Glass cannon mesmer as 15k hp.

    The Renegade build also has an extra 600 armour, and a number of damage reduction traits. On you, the standard 5k backstab turns into a 3k backstab. Hence the hard doubt.

    Your looking at classes that even Ur thief damage can 3 shot.

    Lets ignore that Renegade can't be 3-shot, or even remotely. There is one other issue. Thief can't use backstab more than once per fight, realistically. Almost all of their damage comes from that. They can "3-shot" you in the same sense a Warrior can 3-shot you with 3 eviscerates. In reality, thief does a 5k burst, and then does probably around 2k DPS before running away.

    If your three shotting people. U aren't "medium damage"..

    Good that no one is, and not even remotely.

    The problem is how hard some of these builds can bunker that's the issue. Not the damage output.

    The damage output is the issue, most builds arent even bunkering that much.

    I've been dropped by thief's very quickly several times there's no hard doubt about it. The games pace feels pretty fast most situations

    Once again, with your build, Im gonna call doubt. Even the glassiest thief, fighting you when youre not fighting back, will probably need 10+ seconds to kill you. If you fight back, they cant kill you at all. So your idea of "being dropped by thieves quickly" is nonsense. Unless you meant to add "when I was on 20% hp". The game pace feels glacially slow in all situations. CMC even mentioned it in the patch notes as their big problem.

    We don't need to run around with every proffession 2 shot bursting one another. That's not "skillful". Being able to spam 1 faster then another player just means u can play a flashy game of snap.

    Thats the beauty of it though. That isnt what happened. What we had was the threat of being 2-touched. But you rarely ever got 2-touched. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute. Its much like fighting games. High damage forces you to play as cleanly as possible with as few mistakes as possible, if you make a mistake, you eat a lot of damage. That is skillful. Its why fighting games are such a hard genre. Now? You can make mistake after mistake, since damage is so low, you cant really be punished for that. And since damage is so low, you just spam off cooldown. That is indeed skillless.

    If your butchering people faster then they can react. It's no longer skillful. And it seems like that's what you want in the game which is ridiculous.

    Again, didnt really happen, the threat was there, but it was just a threat.

    WoW is currently quite litterally bleeding to death currently for introducing the PvP meta you proclaim this game needs.

    I dont play WoW, but Im gonna go out on a limb and guess that youre completely misrepresenting the situation. Aaaand its not. Seems the general consensus is that the meta isnt ideal, but its better than the low-damage tank meta they had before by a mile. Gee, I wonder why.

    Plus, yknow, GW2 PvP is currently quite literally bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta you proclaimed this game needs.

    Didn't say the game needed the current meta. And no it isn't bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta.

    If you believe this games biggest reason for quitting is it's PvP meta your wrong I'm afraid.

    I said the games PvP, not the game in general.

    In WoW the reason the PvP meta is killing the game is because BiS gearing for PvE content is currently earnt by PVP.

    Which is an issue with the design, not the PvP inherently.

    I am not misrepresenting the problem. Lol. WoW on SL launch was heavily over the Top. As the characters were balanced with borrowed power in mind. Borrowed power which hadn't been unlocked.

    There's a litteral video taking the p*ss out of WoWs SL pvp because of how one shotty it is.

    And there are many more of people enjoying it, and many more of people dunking on the low damage metas before because of how trash they are.

    And my build is the build on metabattle lol. I dunno how far up the PvP ladder you are. But I'm afraid your gonna have to accept the fact that yea maybe Ur correct under perfectly played circumstances these classes aren't doing this.

    Again, this isnt a matter of gameplay. Its straight up not possible. If you're playing the metabattle renegade build, backstab will hit you for around 3k-3.5k. Then, his highest damage skill will be shadowshot, at at most 2k a pop, and he can use it twice. And then he just has autoattacks, which hits for around 2.2k over 1.68 seconds. So if within 3 seconds, he can barely take you down to 50% if you do literally nothing, how is it killing you "within seconds".

    Take a silver/gold game and these players aren't playing perfectly. And mistakes or lack of utilising defensives properly will mean u die faster.

    They used to mean that. Nowadays, they dont. You can make mistakes as you wont, you still wont really die outside of being outnumbered.

    And no. WoW has a certain population of the playerbase who like the current what they call "fast meta". And it isn't. WoWs lead Dev went on call with one of the bigger wow players and said it's OTT but they don't want to overnerf it.

    WoW isn't "fast meta" it's become twitch reaction based. Something a mmorpg litterally should NEVER be introducing.

    If that is the case, its an easy fix. But what I do know, is that the by far most hated, most unpopular metas in WoW are the low-damage ones like we have in GW2 right now. The ones considered the most skillless.

    Go look up WoW Boomkin PvP convoke the spirits.

    This ability fires 16 spells at full damage over 3 seconds at 0 resource usuage.. you can also manage it as it won't target CC'd players so can cc one and then convoke the other for a strong ST burst.

    Look up the 3 rogue Arena team.

    The team that is considered so bad, its not even tiered? Great example.

    Really? 61% profit loss, 50% player loss, forums on litteral fire?

    Do u read arena forums on wow? Because I do.

    Clearly not if you think triple rogue is anything more than a garbage-tier meme team.

    "meme" team playing at the highest rating .... imagine if a 5 scourge team was at AT finals ...

    You mean like the 4 revenant team in MAT a while back? Or the legendary 5 elementalist team back in core? Yeah turns out thats a thing that happens.

    8.3 was a "fast meta". SL is a twitch reaction 1 shot burst roulette. The vast majority think it needs fixing. And blizzard are also addressing it. Just not fast enough.

    The vast majority also still think its significantly better than low damage metas.

    I wonder what are your statistic which prove that "vast" majority think its better? WoW pvp is terrible at the moment and many many people left (me included) and are leaving because of it and because of the LFG and gearing systems. According to some statistics 42% of WoW's player base left the game in the last few months

    General poll and player sentiment. If you ask what the worst meta is, its usually going to be "tank meta", and its to the point where the consensus is that tanks do not belong in PvP.

    Fights in gw2 are like 20 seconds long in most cases that I've experienced. While in wow Ur looking at 10 minute duals in wow.

    Fights in GW2 last 20 seconds if one player is outnumbered. If neither is outnumbered, they can easily last an infinite amount of time with no resolution.

    Wows "slow meta" which was dampening
    And it was 1000x worse then gw2 is currently.

    I'm a wow player lol. If I felt the game was that slow paced. I'd likely notice given the fact I experience both.

    WoW has had metas as slow as GW2s current meta before as well. They were hated. Because they're trash.

    WoW slow metas are much much worse and borring than gw2 "slow" meta.
    1. in WOW you are doing some noticeable damage only when you have your CDs and most of the damage CD are 45+ seconds cooldown which makes the game play slow and just about trading CDs.

    They're both terrible.

    No ones saying gw2 PvP is perfect. Spoiler no games is. But it ain't that bad either. And removing bunker builds gets what u want anyway.

    It is that bad. If it wasnt, it wouldnt have had so many players leave that matchmaking fails to work properly. And no, it doesnt. Because some of the "bunker" builds have just been regular glass cannon builds with just the survivability they get from skills and heal skills. And that was too much. Nerf that, and you just further reduce skills.

    Saying "It is that bad. " does not make it bad, it only show that you dont like it, in my opinion GW2 pvp is awesome , of course there are some issues which need to be addressed , but its far from bad

    However, pointing out that, since the changes, the playerbase is in free fall to the point where matchmaking stops working properly does make it bad.

    Once again, with your build, Im gonna call doubt. Even the glassiest thief, fighting you when youre not fighting back, will probably need 10+ seconds to kill you. If you fight back, they cant kill you at all. So your idea of "being dropped by thieves quickly" is nonsense

    I play mainly core condy necro and thief can drop me in 4-5 seconds if i dont use my utility and defensives properly, which happened to me multiple times.

    Once again, gonna call doubt. Core condi necro has around 30k hp, doesnt it? A thief can do maybe 10k in 5 seconds, so how are you getting killed in 5 seconds? Nvm the whole entering shroud thing,

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Lucentfir.7430 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    Maybe if they're afk Glass Cannon Eles, but for regular players? Not really, they don't die even if they use their active defense poorly.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    "Heavy damage comps" are rarely used because they don't exist. The highest a glass cannon can do is medium damage.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    They can't. A thief will have a hard time bursting someone for even 50% of their HP (and will usually have to be content with 25-35% as a glass cannon), and Mesmer can only just barely crack 50% now. Mesmer wasn't played since February ever, for a reason.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    If the alternative is to keep increasing powerdip, hurting the game more and more, thats still worth it. Alternatively admit the february megapatch was an unmitigated disaster, and revert everything since and including it.

    What you talking? I'm a revenant using the current renegade build and I've had a thief kill me in seconds. And that isn't even as a glass cannon build lol

    Gonna call hard doubt on that.

    You say 5k. Yet there's proof there's a thief build that can do 11k. The reason it isn't used is because they'd get blown up seconds after using it if another enemy showed up.

    There isnt. One guy did the math, but his math had a number of errors, in reality the max you can do realistically is around 8k with a completely unplayable build that will almost always do a lot less damage because its damage modifiers turn off.

    The current renegade build has 16922 health. Glass cannon mesmer as 15k hp.

    The Renegade build also has an extra 600 armour, and a number of damage reduction traits. On you, the standard 5k backstab turns into a 3k backstab. Hence the hard doubt.

    Your looking at classes that even Ur thief damage can 3 shot.

    Lets ignore that Renegade can't be 3-shot, or even remotely. There is one other issue. Thief can't use backstab more than once per fight, realistically. Almost all of their damage comes from that. They can "3-shot" you in the same sense a Warrior can 3-shot you with 3 eviscerates. In reality, thief does a 5k burst, and then does probably around 2k DPS before running away.

    If your three shotting people. U aren't "medium damage"..

    Good that no one is, and not even remotely.

    The problem is how hard some of these builds can bunker that's the issue. Not the damage output.

    The damage output is the issue, most builds arent even bunkering that much.

    I've been dropped by thief's very quickly several times there's no hard doubt about it. The games pace feels pretty fast most situations

    Once again, with your build, Im gonna call doubt. Even the glassiest thief, fighting you when youre not fighting back, will probably need 10+ seconds to kill you. If you fight back, they cant kill you at all. So your idea of "being dropped by thieves quickly" is nonsense. Unless you meant to add "when I was on 20% hp". The game pace feels glacially slow in all situations. CMC even mentioned it in the patch notes as their big problem.

    We don't need to run around with every proffession 2 shot bursting one another. That's not "skillful". Being able to spam 1 faster then another player just means u can play a flashy game of snap.

    Thats the beauty of it though. That isnt what happened. What we had was the threat of being 2-touched. But you rarely ever got 2-touched. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute. Its much like fighting games. High damage forces you to play as cleanly as possible with as few mistakes as possible, if you make a mistake, you eat a lot of damage. That is skillful. Its why fighting games are such a hard genre. Now? You can make mistake after mistake, since damage is so low, you cant really be punished for that. And since damage is so low, you just spam off cooldown. That is indeed skillless.

    If your butchering people faster then they can react. It's no longer skillful. And it seems like that's what you want in the game which is ridiculous.

    Again, didnt really happen, the threat was there, but it was just a threat.

    WoW is currently quite litterally bleeding to death currently for introducing the PvP meta you proclaim this game needs.

    I dont play WoW, but Im gonna go out on a limb and guess that youre completely misrepresenting the situation. Aaaand its not. Seems the general consensus is that the meta isnt ideal, but its better than the low-damage tank meta they had before by a mile. Gee, I wonder why.

    Plus, yknow, GW2 PvP is currently quite literally bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta you proclaimed this game needs.

    Didn't say the game needed the current meta. And no it isn't bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta.

    If you believe this games biggest reason for quitting is it's PvP meta your wrong I'm afraid.

    In WoW the reason the PvP meta is killing the game is because BiS gearing for PvE content is currently earnt by PVP.

    I am not misrepresenting the problem. Lol. WoW on SL launch was heavily over the Top. As the characters were balanced with borrowed power in mind. Borrowed power which hadn't been unlocked.

    There's a litteral video taking the p*ss out of WoWs SL pvp because of how one shotty it is.

    And my build is the build on metabattle lol. I dunno how far up the PvP ladder you are. But I'm afraid your gonna have to accept the fact that yea maybe Ur correct under perfectly played circumstances these classes aren't doing this.

    Take a silver/gold game and these players aren't playing perfectly. And mistakes or lack of utilising defensives properly will mean u die faster.

    And no. WoW has a certain population of the playerbase who like the current what they call "fast meta". And it isn't. WoWs lead Dev went on call with one of the bigger wow players and said it's OTT but they don't want to overnerf it.

    WoW isn't "fast meta" it's become twitch reaction based. Something a mmorpg litterally should NEVER be introducing.

    Go look up WoW Boomkin PvP convoke the spirits.

    This ability fires 16 spells at full damage over 3 seconds at 0 resource usuage.. you can also manage it as it won't target CC'd players so can cc one and then convoke the other for a strong ST burst.

    Look up the 3 rogue Arena team.

    And definitely look up the paladin + Boomkin combo.

    This isn't misrepresented. Maybe that's how you want a game to look like. But insta dying before even reaching a target isn't fun.

    Why are you being dishonest? WoW bleeding players isn't because of PvP meta, as a mater of fact it's actually one of the best things going for it right now in the expansion. Fun fact for people that don't play WoW they purposefully neutered the reward output for PVE/M+/Raids(and even nerfed gear level to boot) so you get less loot overall for completing them, which is why the valor system got put in place(even though it's pretty tedious if you're doing them through callings). PVP gearing on the other hand is the best source for gear right now because they have a vendor you can buy gear from and upgrade, for honor(currency), then if you want to push for higher end gear you do rated and get rated pieces of gear which you can upgrade by pushing your rating via rated Arena/Battlegrounds and using both honor and another currency from ranked (conquest).

    Another reason why WoW is bleeding players is because there's nothing to do for the next 4 months since 9.1 isn't coming until then, and maybe a contributing factor, but blizzard is pushing out the way you buy game time if you're not running a sub. I get the feeling you don't play WoW pvp very much and just use the easiest thing that was complained about a few months ago. Fun fact too about convoke it becomes less effective at nuking people down with more targets to hit it can be LoS'd, and a 3 minute cooldown that can be interrupted. My druid main friend especially hates fighting Shamans with the earth elemental pet. You'll bring Paladins, Rogues and Druids into this but why don't you bring up Windwalker Monks, Arms Warriors, Shadow priests, and Fire mages Ele shamans? Wonder what your opinion on all those are?

    Gw2's combat system is vastly superior to WoW's system, twitch based gameplay also works here because on top of the number of defensive tools in your arsenal/build. you also have the baseline defensive of directional evasion (haha just dodge lmao) as much people like to meme about that because of a high burst meta back then , it's an essential tool to surviving pvp situations. Gw2 combat is hard, your gear grind is through knowledge(via classes, interactions, understanding your own class) and learning the animations, Not to mention nitt picking this detail from WoW , in Gw2 things won't hit you unless you're actually within their striking range, or projectiles actually make contact with you. Final note BFA WoW pvp was total garbage, SL PvP was something I legitimately enjoyed for the time I was playing it, because it didn't feel like a total slog,

    i think ur the one being dishonest, the Arena Forum,s are full of far more complaints about the pvp meta then actually people being positive surrounding it.. and far more quitting stating about the pvp meta. then there are those appraising it.

    they're screeching at blizzard to balance pvp. type nerf convoke into their post search.. i wonder how many posts u'l;l get

    He whined that theif could do 17k burst back then , while mesmers could do 24k
    He tried to go into circullar conversation , that the Problem with the game was with Memsers burst + 100-nades that where un-avoidable , and the community should whine about then , instead than Thief .
    Can you imagine if the company saw theses converstions and re-thought about the "dps arm race" and tried to scale it down ?:P
    Tell him to use Power Rev/Necro ,if he wants more burst , just like the victims should play Thief to learn how to counter Thief

    That actually doesn't suprise me in the slightest. I find most people want a burst meta back til they find out that their favourite class aren't the ones face rolling each other. And they love to screech it's more "skill based"

    Even tho I'd argue a longer fight is more skill based then one another aslong as the longevity of the fight is down to the ability to utilise the class. Ofcourse if it's just down to classes hitting each other for 0 damage then it'd be a worthwhile case.

    But I'm yet to see fights last that long. I watched plenty of SPVP and more and I'm not seeing anyone suffering the problems they proclaim 🤣

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Lucentfir.7430 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    Maybe if they're afk Glass Cannon Eles, but for regular players? Not really, they don't die even if they use their active defense poorly.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    "Heavy damage comps" are rarely used because they don't exist. The highest a glass cannon can do is medium damage.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    They can't. A thief will have a hard time bursting someone for even 50% of their HP (and will usually have to be content with 25-35% as a glass cannon), and Mesmer can only just barely crack 50% now. Mesmer wasn't played since February ever, for a reason.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    If the alternative is to keep increasing powerdip, hurting the game more and more, thats still worth it. Alternatively admit the february megapatch was an unmitigated disaster, and revert everything since and including it.

    What you talking? I'm a revenant using the current renegade build and I've had a thief kill me in seconds. And that isn't even as a glass cannon build lol

    Gonna call hard doubt on that.

    You say 5k. Yet there's proof there's a thief build that can do 11k. The reason it isn't used is because they'd get blown up seconds after using it if another enemy showed up.

    There isnt. One guy did the math, but his math had a number of errors, in reality the max you can do realistically is around 8k with a completely unplayable build that will almost always do a lot less damage because its damage modifiers turn off.

    The current renegade build has 16922 health. Glass cannon mesmer as 15k hp.

    The Renegade build also has an extra 600 armour, and a number of damage reduction traits. On you, the standard 5k backstab turns into a 3k backstab. Hence the hard doubt.

    Your looking at classes that even Ur thief damage can 3 shot.

    Lets ignore that Renegade can't be 3-shot, or even remotely. There is one other issue. Thief can't use backstab more than once per fight, realistically. Almost all of their damage comes from that. They can "3-shot" you in the same sense a Warrior can 3-shot you with 3 eviscerates. In reality, thief does a 5k burst, and then does probably around 2k DPS before running away.

    If your three shotting people. U aren't "medium damage"..

    Good that no one is, and not even remotely.

    The problem is how hard some of these builds can bunker that's the issue. Not the damage output.

    The damage output is the issue, most builds arent even bunkering that much.

    I've been dropped by thief's very quickly several times there's no hard doubt about it. The games pace feels pretty fast most situations

    Once again, with your build, Im gonna call doubt. Even the glassiest thief, fighting you when youre not fighting back, will probably need 10+ seconds to kill you. If you fight back, they cant kill you at all. So your idea of "being dropped by thieves quickly" is nonsense. Unless you meant to add "when I was on 20% hp". The game pace feels glacially slow in all situations. CMC even mentioned it in the patch notes as their big problem.

    We don't need to run around with every proffession 2 shot bursting one another. That's not "skillful". Being able to spam 1 faster then another player just means u can play a flashy game of snap.

    Thats the beauty of it though. That isnt what happened. What we had was the threat of being 2-touched. But you rarely ever got 2-touched. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute. Its much like fighting games. High damage forces you to play as cleanly as possible with as few mistakes as possible, if you make a mistake, you eat a lot of damage. That is skillful. Its why fighting games are such a hard genre. Now? You can make mistake after mistake, since damage is so low, you cant really be punished for that. And since damage is so low, you just spam off cooldown. That is indeed skillless.

    If your butchering people faster then they can react. It's no longer skillful. And it seems like that's what you want in the game which is ridiculous.

    Again, didnt really happen, the threat was there, but it was just a threat.

    WoW is currently quite litterally bleeding to death currently for introducing the PvP meta you proclaim this game needs.

    I dont play WoW, but Im gonna go out on a limb and guess that youre completely misrepresenting the situation. Aaaand its not. Seems the general consensus is that the meta isnt ideal, but its better than the low-damage tank meta they had before by a mile. Gee, I wonder why.

    Plus, yknow, GW2 PvP is currently quite literally bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta you proclaimed this game needs.

    Didn't say the game needed the current meta. And no it isn't bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta.

    If you believe this games biggest reason for quitting is it's PvP meta your wrong I'm afraid.

    In WoW the reason the PvP meta is killing the game is because BiS gearing for PvE content is currently earnt by PVP.

    I am not misrepresenting the problem. Lol. WoW on SL launch was heavily over the Top. As the characters were balanced with borrowed power in mind. Borrowed power which hadn't been unlocked.

    There's a litteral video taking the p*ss out of WoWs SL pvp because of how one shotty it is.

    And my build is the build on metabattle lol. I dunno how far up the PvP ladder you are. But I'm afraid your gonna have to accept the fact that yea maybe Ur correct under perfectly played circumstances these classes aren't doing this.

    Take a silver/gold game and these players aren't playing perfectly. And mistakes or lack of utilising defensives properly will mean u die faster.

    And no. WoW has a certain population of the playerbase who like the current what they call "fast meta". And it isn't. WoWs lead Dev went on call with one of the bigger wow players and said it's OTT but they don't want to overnerf it.

    WoW isn't "fast meta" it's become twitch reaction based. Something a mmorpg litterally should NEVER be introducing.

    Go look up WoW Boomkin PvP convoke the spirits.

    This ability fires 16 spells at full damage over 3 seconds at 0 resource usuage.. you can also manage it as it won't target CC'd players so can cc one and then convoke the other for a strong ST burst.

    Look up the 3 rogue Arena team.

    And definitely look up the paladin + Boomkin combo.

    This isn't misrepresented. Maybe that's how you want a game to look like. But insta dying before even reaching a target isn't fun.

    Why are you being dishonest? WoW bleeding players isn't because of PvP meta, as a mater of fact it's actually one of the best things going for it right now in the expansion. Fun fact for people that don't play WoW they purposefully neutered the reward output for PVE/M+/Raids(and even nerfed gear level to boot) so you get less loot overall for completing them, which is why the valor system got put in place(even though it's pretty tedious if you're doing them through callings). PVP gearing on the other hand is the best source for gear right now because they have a vendor you can buy gear from and upgrade, for honor(currency), then if you want to push for higher end gear you do rated and get rated pieces of gear which you can upgrade by pushing your rating via rated Arena/Battlegrounds and using both honor and another currency from ranked (conquest).

    Another reason why WoW is bleeding players is because there's nothing to do for the next 4 months since 9.1 isn't coming until then, and maybe a contributing factor, but blizzard is pushing out the way you buy game time if you're not running a sub. I get the feeling you don't play WoW pvp very much and just use the easiest thing that was complained about a few months ago. Fun fact too about convoke it becomes less effective at nuking people down with more targets to hit it can be LoS'd, and a 3 minute cooldown that can be interrupted. My druid main friend especially hates fighting Shamans with the earth elemental pet. You'll bring Paladins, Rogues and Druids into this but why don't you bring up Windwalker Monks, Arms Warriors, Shadow priests, and Fire mages Ele shamans? Wonder what your opinion on all those are?

    Gw2's combat system is vastly superior to WoW's system, twitch based gameplay also works here because on top of the number of defensive tools in your arsenal/build. you also have the baseline defensive of directional evasion (haha just dodge lmao) as much people like to meme about that because of a high burst meta back then , it's an essential tool to surviving pvp situations. Gw2 combat is hard, your gear grind is through knowledge(via classes, interactions, understanding your own class) and learning the animations, Not to mention nitt picking this detail from WoW , in Gw2 things won't hit you unless you're actually within their striking range, or projectiles actually make contact with you. Final note BFA WoW pvp was total garbage, SL PvP was something I legitimately enjoyed for the time I was playing it, because it didn't feel like a total slog,

    i think ur the one being dishonest, the Arena Forum,s are full of far more complaints about the pvp meta then actually people being positive surrounding it.. and far more quitting stating about the pvp meta. then there are those appraising it.

    they're screeching at blizzard to balance pvp. type nerf convoke into their post search.. i wonder how many posts u'l;l get

    He whined that theif could do 17k burst back then , while mesmers could do 24k
    He tried to go into circullar conversation , that the Problem with the game was with Memsers burst + 100-nades that where un-avoidable , and the community should whine about then , instead than Thief .
    Can you imagine if the company saw theses converstions and re-thought about the "dps arm race" and tried to scale it down ?:P
    Tell him to use Power Rev/Necro ,if he wants more burst , just like the victims should play Thief to learn how to counter Thief

    That actually doesn't suprise me in the slightest. I find most people want a burst meta back til they find out that their favourite class aren't the ones face rolling each other. And they love to screech it's more "skill based"

    Just a headsup, that guy is a known troll. He is the one who goes in "circular conversations", and last time he kept insisting that movement speed in WvW is different than in PvE, even after 8+ people told him its the same. I hate to say it, but if he agrees with you, its almost certainly because youre wrong.

    Even tho I'd argue a longer fight is more skill based then one another aslong as the longevity of the fight is down to the ability to utilise the class. Ofcourse if it's just down to classes hitting each other for 0 damage then it'd be a worthwhile case.

    And thats what we had before. "Classes hitting each other for 0 damage" is what we have now.

    But I'm yet to see fights last that long. I watched plenty of SPVP and more and I'm not seeing anyone suffering the problems they proclaim 🤣

    Because people get outnumbered and die as a result. Without outnumbering? Fights go on endlessly. If you ever saw a fight around tranquility in the temple map between 2 sidenoders, you know it literally never ends.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daddy.8125 said:
    People like bursty Metas yeah, ur correct. but as i said Its not perfect Some things could be faster, i just feel the problem lays in some professions and builds having far too much access to Sustainability then the Damage some classes are doing.

    "Not perfect" is a nice way of putting it. "Utterly atrocious" is the accurate way of putting it. The pace is glacially slow. The problem is due to a lack of damage. It has nothing to do with sustain or survivability, those are low anyway.

    WoW is a game based on Raw killing one another in a Arena Enviroment#
    GW2 is a game based on holding Nodes.

    Which is why being able to kill enemies becomes even more important. Else you get situations where you cap a node, then sit on it endlessly without dying.

    Im NGL, but if ur 2 shotting each other, it fundamentally removes that realistically, what u get are 5 stacked teams of thiefs Spamming heartseeker on each other which is the realistic effect.

    So, funny thing, do you know why that never happened? Because its terrible. And because "everyone was 2-shotting each other" was plain and simply wrong. What actually happened is that the threat of being 2-touched meant that sidenode duels actually had conclusions without being outnumbered. It meant that you needed to avoid mistakes while baiting out enemy mistakes, and it lead to highly skillful gameplay. If someone tried to bring teams of 5 thieves, they would 100% lose every single time, as they would fail to cap or kill anyone.

    only times ifind i need a +1 is against one of these dumb bunker bot builds people currewntly use and IMHO nerfing that build is a better optino then having People having to LITTERALLY go 110% Tank Meta to survive Any combat.

    They never had to go 110% tank meta. You could survive just fine without it. You just had to be smart about your defenses. Now? Now you can make mistake after mistake after mistake, and never die. And you will always need a +1 to kill any sidenoder. Thats not really a matter of debate, its just a fact.

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2021

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Lucentfir.7430 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    Maybe if they're afk Glass Cannon Eles, but for regular players? Not really, they don't die even if they use their active defense poorly.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    "Heavy damage comps" are rarely used because they don't exist. The highest a glass cannon can do is medium damage.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    They can't. A thief will have a hard time bursting someone for even 50% of their HP (and will usually have to be content with 25-35% as a glass cannon), and Mesmer can only just barely crack 50% now. Mesmer wasn't played since February ever, for a reason.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    If the alternative is to keep increasing powerdip, hurting the game more and more, thats still worth it. Alternatively admit the february megapatch was an unmitigated disaster, and revert everything since and including it.

    What you talking? I'm a revenant using the current renegade build and I've had a thief kill me in seconds. And that isn't even as a glass cannon build lol

    Gonna call hard doubt on that.

    You say 5k. Yet there's proof there's a thief build that can do 11k. The reason it isn't used is because they'd get blown up seconds after using it if another enemy showed up.

    There isnt. One guy did the math, but his math had a number of errors, in reality the max you can do realistically is around 8k with a completely unplayable build that will almost always do a lot less damage because its damage modifiers turn off.

    The current renegade build has 16922 health. Glass cannon mesmer as 15k hp.

    The Renegade build also has an extra 600 armour, and a number of damage reduction traits. On you, the standard 5k backstab turns into a 3k backstab. Hence the hard doubt.

    Your looking at classes that even Ur thief damage can 3 shot.

    Lets ignore that Renegade can't be 3-shot, or even remotely. There is one other issue. Thief can't use backstab more than once per fight, realistically. Almost all of their damage comes from that. They can "3-shot" you in the same sense a Warrior can 3-shot you with 3 eviscerates. In reality, thief does a 5k burst, and then does probably around 2k DPS before running away.

    If your three shotting people. U aren't "medium damage"..

    Good that no one is, and not even remotely.

    The problem is how hard some of these builds can bunker that's the issue. Not the damage output.

    The damage output is the issue, most builds arent even bunkering that much.

    I've been dropped by thief's very quickly several times there's no hard doubt about it. The games pace feels pretty fast most situations

    Once again, with your build, Im gonna call doubt. Even the glassiest thief, fighting you when youre not fighting back, will probably need 10+ seconds to kill you. If you fight back, they cant kill you at all. So your idea of "being dropped by thieves quickly" is nonsense. Unless you meant to add "when I was on 20% hp". The game pace feels glacially slow in all situations. CMC even mentioned it in the patch notes as their big problem.

    We don't need to run around with every proffession 2 shot bursting one another. That's not "skillful". Being able to spam 1 faster then another player just means u can play a flashy game of snap.

    Thats the beauty of it though. That isnt what happened. What we had was the threat of being 2-touched. But you rarely ever got 2-touched. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute. Its much like fighting games. High damage forces you to play as cleanly as possible with as few mistakes as possible, if you make a mistake, you eat a lot of damage. That is skillful. Its why fighting games are such a hard genre. Now? You can make mistake after mistake, since damage is so low, you cant really be punished for that. And since damage is so low, you just spam off cooldown. That is indeed skillless.

    If your butchering people faster then they can react. It's no longer skillful. And it seems like that's what you want in the game which is ridiculous.

    Again, didnt really happen, the threat was there, but it was just a threat.

    WoW is currently quite litterally bleeding to death currently for introducing the PvP meta you proclaim this game needs.

    I dont play WoW, but Im gonna go out on a limb and guess that youre completely misrepresenting the situation. Aaaand its not. Seems the general consensus is that the meta isnt ideal, but its better than the low-damage tank meta they had before by a mile. Gee, I wonder why.

    Plus, yknow, GW2 PvP is currently quite literally bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta you proclaimed this game needs.

    Didn't say the game needed the current meta. And no it isn't bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta.

    If you believe this games biggest reason for quitting is it's PvP meta your wrong I'm afraid.

    In WoW the reason the PvP meta is killing the game is because BiS gearing for PvE content is currently earnt by PVP.

    I am not misrepresenting the problem. Lol. WoW on SL launch was heavily over the Top. As the characters were balanced with borrowed power in mind. Borrowed power which hadn't been unlocked.

    There's a litteral video taking the p*ss out of WoWs SL pvp because of how one shotty it is.

    And my build is the build on metabattle lol. I dunno how far up the PvP ladder you are. But I'm afraid your gonna have to accept the fact that yea maybe Ur correct under perfectly played circumstances these classes aren't doing this.

    Take a silver/gold game and these players aren't playing perfectly. And mistakes or lack of utilising defensives properly will mean u die faster.

    And no. WoW has a certain population of the playerbase who like the current what they call "fast meta". And it isn't. WoWs lead Dev went on call with one of the bigger wow players and said it's OTT but they don't want to overnerf it.

    WoW isn't "fast meta" it's become twitch reaction based. Something a mmorpg litterally should NEVER be introducing.

    Go look up WoW Boomkin PvP convoke the spirits.

    This ability fires 16 spells at full damage over 3 seconds at 0 resource usuage.. you can also manage it as it won't target CC'd players so can cc one and then convoke the other for a strong ST burst.

    Look up the 3 rogue Arena team.

    And definitely look up the paladin + Boomkin combo.

    This isn't misrepresented. Maybe that's how you want a game to look like. But insta dying before even reaching a target isn't fun.

    Why are you being dishonest? WoW bleeding players isn't because of PvP meta, as a mater of fact it's actually one of the best things going for it right now in the expansion. Fun fact for people that don't play WoW they purposefully neutered the reward output for PVE/M+/Raids(and even nerfed gear level to boot) so you get less loot overall for completing them, which is why the valor system got put in place(even though it's pretty tedious if you're doing them through callings). PVP gearing on the other hand is the best source for gear right now because they have a vendor you can buy gear from and upgrade, for honor(currency), then if you want to push for higher end gear you do rated and get rated pieces of gear which you can upgrade by pushing your rating via rated Arena/Battlegrounds and using both honor and another currency from ranked (conquest).

    Another reason why WoW is bleeding players is because there's nothing to do for the next 4 months since 9.1 isn't coming until then, and maybe a contributing factor, but blizzard is pushing out the way you buy game time if you're not running a sub. I get the feeling you don't play WoW pvp very much and just use the easiest thing that was complained about a few months ago. Fun fact too about convoke it becomes less effective at nuking people down with more targets to hit it can be LoS'd, and a 3 minute cooldown that can be interrupted. My druid main friend especially hates fighting Shamans with the earth elemental pet. You'll bring Paladins, Rogues and Druids into this but why don't you bring up Windwalker Monks, Arms Warriors, Shadow priests, and Fire mages Ele shamans? Wonder what your opinion on all those are?

    Gw2's combat system is vastly superior to WoW's system, twitch based gameplay also works here because on top of the number of defensive tools in your arsenal/build. you also have the baseline defensive of directional evasion (haha just dodge lmao) as much people like to meme about that because of a high burst meta back then , it's an essential tool to surviving pvp situations. Gw2 combat is hard, your gear grind is through knowledge(via classes, interactions, understanding your own class) and learning the animations, Not to mention nitt picking this detail from WoW , in Gw2 things won't hit you unless you're actually within their striking range, or projectiles actually make contact with you. Final note BFA WoW pvp was total garbage, SL PvP was something I legitimately enjoyed for the time I was playing it, because it didn't feel like a total slog,

    i think ur the one being dishonest, the Arena Forum,s are full of far more complaints about the pvp meta then actually people being positive surrounding it.. and far more quitting stating about the pvp meta. then there are those appraising it.

    they're screeching at blizzard to balance pvp. type nerf convoke into their post search.. i wonder how many posts u'l;l get

    He whined that theif could do 17k burst back then , while mesmers could do 24k
    He tried to go into circullar conversation , that the Problem with the game was with Memsers burst + 100-nades that where un-avoidable , and the community should whine about then , instead than Thief .
    Can you imagine if the company saw theses converstions and re-thought about the "dps arm race" and tried to scale it down ?:P
    Tell him to use Power Rev/Necro ,if he wants more burst , just like the victims should play Thief to learn how to counter Thief

    That actually doesn't suprise me in the slightest. I find most people want a burst meta back til they find out that their favourite class aren't the ones face rolling each other. And they love to screech it's more "skill based"

    Even tho I'd argue a longer fight is more skill based then one another aslong as the longevity of the fight is down to the ability to utilise the class. Ofcourse if it's just down to classes hitting each other for 0 damage then it'd be a worthwhile case.

    But I'm yet to see fights last that long. I watched plenty of SPVP and more and I'm not seeing anyone suffering the problems they proclaim 🤣

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Lucentfir.7430 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Daddy.8125 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    I’m honestly getting sick of all the threads about “pls nerf x”. How much more boring do u want this game mode to be?!!
    Scourge was nerfed repeatedly for the past 3 years to the degree of almost being unplayable. The reason u see it more often now is because anet also nerfed everything else. It’s becoming a boring, frustrating, viscious cycle.
    How bout instead of any more nerfs we balance some underperforming classes?

    Games with 2-3+ scourges are making the game boring. It makes the comps repeatitive.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    And the solution to that is buffing everyone else, not nerfing Scourge. Were already in horrible powerdip. Lets not double down on it.

    What you mean?. I see people killing others in seconds in some cases.

    Maybe if they're afk Glass Cannon Eles, but for regular players? Not really, they don't die even if they use their active defense poorly.

    The issue is because of builds such as scourge heavy damage comps are rarely used. Once nerfed it's likely we will see more burst mesmers etc etc opening up and the higher burst and damage comps.

    "Heavy damage comps" are rarely used because they don't exist. The highest a glass cannon can do is medium damage.

    But a glass cannon thief build or mesmer build can still blow someone up. It's just Ur basically useless when people are stacking scourge and tanky brawlers.

    They can't. A thief will have a hard time bursting someone for even 50% of their HP (and will usually have to be content with 25-35% as a glass cannon), and Mesmer can only just barely crack 50% now. Mesmer wasn't played since February ever, for a reason.

    Also your concept would put alot more pressure on the balancing comparitively. Rebalancing 99% of the professions would likely lead to another proffession being over buffed.

    If the alternative is to keep increasing powerdip, hurting the game more and more, thats still worth it. Alternatively admit the february megapatch was an unmitigated disaster, and revert everything since and including it.

    What you talking? I'm a revenant using the current renegade build and I've had a thief kill me in seconds. And that isn't even as a glass cannon build lol

    Gonna call hard doubt on that.

    You say 5k. Yet there's proof there's a thief build that can do 11k. The reason it isn't used is because they'd get blown up seconds after using it if another enemy showed up.

    There isnt. One guy did the math, but his math had a number of errors, in reality the max you can do realistically is around 8k with a completely unplayable build that will almost always do a lot less damage because its damage modifiers turn off.

    The current renegade build has 16922 health. Glass cannon mesmer as 15k hp.

    The Renegade build also has an extra 600 armour, and a number of damage reduction traits. On you, the standard 5k backstab turns into a 3k backstab. Hence the hard doubt.

    Your looking at classes that even Ur thief damage can 3 shot.

    Lets ignore that Renegade can't be 3-shot, or even remotely. There is one other issue. Thief can't use backstab more than once per fight, realistically. Almost all of their damage comes from that. They can "3-shot" you in the same sense a Warrior can 3-shot you with 3 eviscerates. In reality, thief does a 5k burst, and then does probably around 2k DPS before running away.

    If your three shotting people. U aren't "medium damage"..

    Good that no one is, and not even remotely.

    The problem is how hard some of these builds can bunker that's the issue. Not the damage output.

    The damage output is the issue, most builds arent even bunkering that much.

    I've been dropped by thief's very quickly several times there's no hard doubt about it. The games pace feels pretty fast most situations

    Once again, with your build, Im gonna call doubt. Even the glassiest thief, fighting you when youre not fighting back, will probably need 10+ seconds to kill you. If you fight back, they cant kill you at all. So your idea of "being dropped by thieves quickly" is nonsense. Unless you meant to add "when I was on 20% hp". The game pace feels glacially slow in all situations. CMC even mentioned it in the patch notes as their big problem.

    We don't need to run around with every proffession 2 shot bursting one another. That's not "skillful". Being able to spam 1 faster then another player just means u can play a flashy game of snap.

    Thats the beauty of it though. That isnt what happened. What we had was the threat of being 2-touched. But you rarely ever got 2-touched. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute. Its much like fighting games. High damage forces you to play as cleanly as possible with as few mistakes as possible, if you make a mistake, you eat a lot of damage. That is skillful. Its why fighting games are such a hard genre. Now? You can make mistake after mistake, since damage is so low, you cant really be punished for that. And since damage is so low, you just spam off cooldown. That is indeed skillless.

    If your butchering people faster then they can react. It's no longer skillful. And it seems like that's what you want in the game which is ridiculous.

    Again, didnt really happen, the threat was there, but it was just a threat.

    WoW is currently quite litterally bleeding to death currently for introducing the PvP meta you proclaim this game needs.

    I dont play WoW, but Im gonna go out on a limb and guess that youre completely misrepresenting the situation. Aaaand its not. Seems the general consensus is that the meta isnt ideal, but its better than the low-damage tank meta they had before by a mile. Gee, I wonder why.

    Plus, yknow, GW2 PvP is currently quite literally bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta you proclaimed this game needs.

    Didn't say the game needed the current meta. And no it isn't bleeding to death for introducing the PvP meta.

    If you believe this games biggest reason for quitting is it's PvP meta your wrong I'm afraid.

    In WoW the reason the PvP meta is killing the game is because BiS gearing for PvE content is currently earnt by PVP.

    I am not misrepresenting the problem. Lol. WoW on SL launch was heavily over the Top. As the characters were balanced with borrowed power in mind. Borrowed power which hadn't been unlocked.

    There's a litteral video taking the p*ss out of WoWs SL pvp because of how one shotty it is.

    And my build is the build on metabattle lol. I dunno how far up the PvP ladder you are. But I'm afraid your gonna have to accept the fact that yea maybe Ur correct under perfectly played circumstances these classes aren't doing this.

    Take a silver/gold game and these players aren't playing perfectly. And mistakes or lack of utilising defensives properly will mean u die faster.

    And no. WoW has a certain population of the playerbase who like the current what they call "fast meta". And it isn't. WoWs lead Dev went on call with one of the bigger wow players and said it's OTT but they don't want to overnerf it.

    WoW isn't "fast meta" it's become twitch reaction based. Something a mmorpg litterally should NEVER be introducing.

    Go look up WoW Boomkin PvP convoke the spirits.

    This ability fires 16 spells at full damage over 3 seconds at 0 resource usuage.. you can also manage it as it won't target CC'd players so can cc one and then convoke the other for a strong ST burst.

    Look up the 3 rogue Arena team.

    And definitely look up the paladin + Boomkin combo.

    This isn't misrepresented. Maybe that's how you want a game to look like. But insta dying before even reaching a target isn't fun.

    Why are you being dishonest? WoW bleeding players isn't because of PvP meta, as a mater of fact it's actually one of the best things going for it right now in the expansion. Fun fact for people that don't play WoW they purposefully neutered the reward output for PVE/M+/Raids(and even nerfed gear level to boot) so you get less loot overall for completing them, which is why the valor system got put in place(even though it's pretty tedious if you're doing them through callings). PVP gearing on the other hand is the best source for gear right now because they have a vendor you can buy gear from and upgrade, for honor(currency), then if you want to push for higher end gear you do rated and get rated pieces of gear which you can upgrade by pushing your rating via rated Arena/Battlegrounds and using both honor and another currency from ranked (conquest).

    Another reason why WoW is bleeding players is because there's nothing to do for the next 4 months since 9.1 isn't coming until then, and maybe a contributing factor, but blizzard is pushing out the way you buy game time if you're not running a sub. I get the feeling you don't play WoW pvp very much and just use the easiest thing that was complained about a few months ago. Fun fact too about convoke it becomes less effective at nuking people down with more targets to hit it can be LoS'd, and a 3 minute cooldown that can be interrupted. My druid main friend especially hates fighting Shamans with the earth elemental pet. You'll bring Paladins, Rogues and Druids into this but why don't you bring up Windwalker Monks, Arms Warriors, Shadow priests, and Fire mages Ele shamans? Wonder what your opinion on all those are?

    Gw2's combat system is vastly superior to WoW's system, twitch based gameplay also works here because on top of the number of defensive tools in your arsenal/build. you also have the baseline defensive of directional evasion (haha just dodge lmao) as much people like to meme about that because of a high burst meta back then , it's an essential tool to surviving pvp situations. Gw2 combat is hard, your gear grind is through knowledge(via classes, interactions, understanding your own class) and learning the animations, Not to mention nitt picking this detail from WoW , in Gw2 things won't hit you unless you're actually within their striking range, or projectiles actually make contact with you. Final note BFA WoW pvp was total garbage, SL PvP was something I legitimately enjoyed for the time I was playing it, because it didn't feel like a total slog,

    i think ur the one being dishonest, the Arena Forum,s are full of far more complaints about the pvp meta then actually people being positive surrounding it.. and far more quitting stating about the pvp meta. then there are those appraising it.

    they're screeching at blizzard to balance pvp. type nerf convoke into their post search.. i wonder how many posts u'l;l get

    He whined that theif could do 17k burst back then , while mesmers could do 24k
    He tried to go into circullar conversation , that the Problem with the game was with Memsers burst + 100-nades that where un-avoidable , and the community should whine about then , instead than Thief .
    Can you imagine if the company saw theses converstions and re-thought about the "dps arm race" and tried to scale it down ?:P
    Tell him to use Power Rev/Necro ,if he wants more burst , just like the victims should play Thief to learn how to counter Thief

    That actually doesn't suprise me in the slightest. I find most people want a burst meta back til they find out that their favourite class aren't the ones face rolling each other. And they love to screech it's more "skill based"

    Just a headsup, that guy is a known troll. He is the one who goes in "circular conversations", and last time he kept insisting that movement speed in WvW is different than in PvE, even after 8+ people told him its the same. I hate to say it, but if he agrees with you, its almost certainly because youre wrong.

    Even tho I'd argue a longer fight is more skill based then one another aslong as the longevity of the fight is down to the ability to utilise the class. Ofcourse if it's just down to classes hitting each other for 0 damage then it'd be a worthwhile case.

    And thats what we had before. "Classes hitting each other for 0 damage" is what we have now.

    But I'm yet to see fights last that long. I watched plenty of SPVP and more and I'm not seeing anyone suffering the problems they proclaim 🤣

    Because people get outnumbered and die as a result. Without outnumbering? Fights go on endlessly. If you ever saw a fight around tranquility in the temple map between 2 sidenoders, you know it literally never ends.

    I agrre with him,because he is right , instead you .
    Just like you whined that when you tried to cast Black Powder + Heartseeker , the enemy Enginner could drop a 100-nada your location and you couldnt do anything
    Imagine if you could cast Steal or Shadow Stepto get out of the animation :PP
    Or Mirror Blade + Mind Stab is from a un-avoidable burst combo , than you cant see and react to , getting obliterarated for 24k damage :P

    Sorry Ncsoft , that agreement was not made "(
    Nov