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stop removing amulets and gutting traits + skills

Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

take. incremental. steps. you don't need to reinvent the wheel, and you don't need to revert to horse back. if there are certain builds that are over performing, nerf them a LITTLE and buff their counters a LITTLE. if we are in a bunker meta buff all weapons burst damage a LITTLE until fights start finishing within a reasonable time frame. ideally this wouldn't take a kitten year but hey this is where we're at with this game. nerfing damage and increasing cd's was a really bad idea. either you have high cd high damage skills or the opposite, low cd low damage skills or else we get the current bunker meta. i'm not sure why this hasn't been figured out by now, you've had plenty of time since the game launched to gather data across multiple metas. lastly, imo, if a build is not doing well slowly buff the things its bad at but not to the point of power creep ofc. this is where the art of balancing comes in.

te lazla otstara.
fingers crossed meta ~

Comments

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    take. incremental. steps. you don't need to reinvent the wheel, and you don't need to revert to horse back. if there are certain builds that are over performing, nerf them a LITTLE and buff their counters a LITTLE. if we are in a bunker meta buff all weapons burst damage a LITTLE until fights start finishing within a reasonable time frame. ideally this wouldn't take a kitten year but hey this is where we're at with this game. nerfing damage and increasing cd's was a really bad idea. either you have high cd high damage skills or the opposite, low cd low damage skills or else we get the current bunker meta. i'm not sure why this hasn't been figured out by now, you've had plenty of time since the game launched to gather data across multiple metas. lastly, imo, if a build is not doing well slowly buff the things its bad at but not to the point of power creep ofc. this is where the art of balancing comes in.

    A 1000 healing power turns anything and I mean anything into a bunker which is not let's say suitable for a capture point game mode, at this point the most logical option is to remove the 1000 healing power option and forces people into dmg oriented build, and this increase the pace of the game mode both for spectators and the players.

    It's also wrong to think that bunker gameplay should not be allowed in an MMO, players should be free to play the way they want and if they want to be an "unkillable" tank ...so be it but and a big BUt here, this bunker option should come at the cost of dmg and support to allies

    Players should be free to play a bunker if they choose to do so but they shouldn't be able to support others or do an amazing amount of damage, that support option should come from specific traits at the cost of any extreme bunkering choice at the same time you can't afford to go and nerf self-sustain of professions capable of support because that would affect everything else on the class

    If you nerf the self-sustain of the class with respect to its support option...how are you supposed to play its DPS options?

    Now what I think it's happening is that Anet has finally realized the game was not designed for extreme support since they opted for a no trinity MMO thus giving strong self-sustain to each profession for making them self-sufficient, They then decided to go back on their original plan and add support options on top of this self-sustain and ofc that backfired as we can all see.

    At this point I came to the conclusion that removing amulets and stats is preferable to further nerf self-sustain , if you keep nerfing self-sustain to allow support ...then you won't be able to play anything else but support because you won't have the self-sustain to play a DPS, it is that simple

    On the other hand, buffing dmg up to a point where it can effectively counter the combo of self-sustain + support will lead us to a path where one shot builds will destroy everything but a handful of builds, that also won't work out well in the end

    My solution would be to divide self-sustain skill/trait from healing other skill/trait :

    -remove the AoE aspect of a skill and make it affect only the user
    -create a skill or trait that heals only allies but not the user

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021

    It's REAL important at this point in the game's state of being that we do not remove any more options.

    Heal amulets are fine and they have been for years. The problem was never heal on amulets, it was Supports being seriously over-buffed with way too much damage for running Support builds, and too many team fight classes benefitting too much latent half-support.

    There are two routes to take here:

    1. Start removing heal stat amulets, which will result in not only less build diversity in general but also less diversity in the difference between job roles. This is a dangerous move to take as it may dumb down the dynamic of the game to a point where most of us find it boring when everyone's build is essentially the same job role.
    2. Separate Team Fighters from Supports again by nerfing the unusually high damage output that sustain classes have been given, and by removing the random over-buffs being spit out all over the place by popular Team Fight classes.

    In my opinion the problem is that somewhere along the lines, Supports and Team Fighters became the same thing. This obviously results in things like Mender's or Marshal's or Sage being really strong on builds that can bolster heavy support sustain and damage with a single stat block. The problem is not the amulets, it's these certain classes that just have too much to benefit from amulets like this or something like Celestial.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    At this point I came to the conclusion that removing amulets and stats is preferable to further nerf self-sustain , if you keep nerfing self-sustain to allow support ...then you won't be able to play anything else but support because you won't have the self-sustain to play a DPS, it is that simple

    On the other hand, buffing dmg up to a point where it can effectively counter the combo of self-sustain + support will lead us to a path where one shot builds will destroy everything but a handful of builds, that also won't work out well in the end

    This is a totally logical conclusion to reach, and the same was reached by CMC probably, but it is not the only options you have. Think about it deeper for a moment...if buffing damage gives you power-creep, and nerfing damage gives you reverse power-creep (power dip) then there is something wrong with applicability of the changes wouldn't you agree? By doing one, you simply getting the result of the other and the changes you made don't have any meaning because you've now gone back to where you started...your just moving numbers around in a sea of numbers thinking that there SHOULD be some middle ground in there somewhere.

    But the problem is that there is no middle ground...the middle ground is the HEAT DEATH of player choice....aka the removal of all amulets and introduction of the Stick. Surely there must be another way out of that problem? And there is, and it's very simple but nobody bothers to really look it up and do the research to find out. It has all to do about statistical averaging over large datasets called Anthropics. Think about what an average is over some standing fluid ...Every molecule floating around in this fluid has a different position and velocity...but the fluid as a continuum is at complete rest in the grand scheme of things. This is anthropics...that the average deviation of something can equal 0 even if all the components inside have widely varying values.

    This is the middle ground...how to get a nice distribution on the surface while the components and individuals parts inside are all different. There's alot to say about this in particular but to put simple, a highly diverse environment thrives on anthropic principles, and diverse environments just consists of many things existing. As an example, Bears don't exist to counter wolves and wolves don't exist to counter tigers...they just exist...and because they exist, the more diverse the system becomes and the more balanced it becomes as a result via these anthropics.

    Sorry i had to throw the science down real quick...but like i said, those two options aren't your only options man you have to understand why i even say this kind of stuff. Trying to get people out of the box they've built for themselves over the past decade here

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    It's REAL important at this point in the game's state of being that we do not remove any more options.

    Heal amulets are fine and they have been for years. The problem was never heal on amulets, it was Supports being seriously over-buffed with way too much damage for running Support builds, and too many team fight classes benefitting too much latent half-support.

    There are two routes to take here:

    1. Start removing heal stat amulets, which will result in not only less build diversity in general but also less diversity in the difference between job roles. This is a dangerous move to take as it may dumb down the dynamic of the game to a point where most of us find it boring when everyone's build is essentially the same job role.
    2. Separate Team Fighters from Supports again by nerfing the unusually high damage output that sustain classes have been given, and by removing the random over-buffs being spit out all over the place by popular Team Fight classes.

    In my opinion the problem is that somewhere along the lines, Supports and Team Fighters became the same thing. This obviously results in things like Mender's or Marshal's or Sage being really strong on builds that can bolster heavy support sustain and damage with a single stat block. The problem is not the amulets, it's these certain classes that just have too much to benefit from amulets like this or something like Celestial.

    Its casue healer classes should prob be more like druids then where you sacrifice almost all damage to be able to heal really efficiently and some sustain or all healing and most sustian to be a good dps capable of delivering blows.

    Any class capable of having 2 or more of those is seriously broken and overpowered, but hot and POF brought those regardless and introduced new.. issues that popped up from being able to do multiple things well at once creating a huge power creep.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • FrownyClown.8402FrownyClown.8402 Member ✭✭✭

    Idk game seemed fine in vanilla with no aoe heals outside water fields/weapon skills. They should never have been in this game.

  • @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Idk game seemed fine in vanilla with no aoe heals outside water fields/weapon skills. They should never have been in this game.

    In WvW you even needed to blast these water fields for additional heals or to get other bonuses from other fields, but now? Just press 2-3 skills and it's done for whole party.
    There isn't any kind of powercreep from HoT and PoF /s ¯_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯

  • Paradoxoglanis.1904Paradoxoglanis.1904 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Idk game seemed fine in vanilla with no aoe heals outside water fields/weapon skills. They should never have been in this game.

    This is pretty much the main issue. Pvp wasnt initially designed with the types of skills elite specs and power creep bring. Balance wasnt perfect back then, but it was fixable. Now there is way too much aoe, pulsing attacks, passive procs, sustain, boon uptime, condi application & cleanse, cc.. etc. that cant be fixed.

  • FrownyClown.8402FrownyClown.8402 Member ✭✭✭

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Idk game seemed fine in vanilla with no aoe heals outside water fields/weapon skills. They should never have been in this game.

    This is pretty much the main issue. Pvp wasnt initially designed with the types of skills elite specs and power creep bring. Balance wasnt perfect back then, but it was fixable. Now there is way too much aoe, pulsing attacks, passive procs, sustain, boon uptime, condi application & cleanse, cc.. etc. that cant be fixed.

    Nah boon duration is worse now. Condi application is probably worse too. Boon sharing and aoe condi application is better though. We are too far gone for a lot of that but making teams utilize water fields for sustain isnt one of them.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021

    What if this game had more healing modifiers. For example, lets say we add 2 new stats that only exist in runes/sigils/traits.

    One stat gives +X% healing to allies and -X% incoming healing

    the other gives +X% incoming healing and -%X healing to allies.

    If we balance sustain around these modifiers this should help us distinguish between bunkers and supports.
    Also add boons back into the game. Low duration boons like 1-2 seconds of might,prot, ect. just make boons feel insignificant and spammy. I'd like boons to feel like a meaningful way of supporting allies again.

    I'd also like to see a buff to boon removal and boon corrupts from thief, domi mesmer, necro, and spellbreaker. Maybe also remove the CC on throw mine and reduce the CD so it doesn't break decap builds and sees use as a boon removal tool instead.

  • foste.3098foste.3098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021

    Imo the main issue with support lines is that everything they do is aoe, there is no tab targeted support skills in the game, no skills that affect only 1 allied player. There used to be pseudo targeted support skills like the guardian staff orb, beta firebrand mantras that had a small cone effect and no circular aoe around the guardian, or the druid avatar skill 1, but they were so badly implemented and clunky that no one used them.
    And then this issue of aoe everything is compounded by elite specs where they were designed to be core class+ lines where in you can facerole your keyboard for great effect.
    Best example for this is firebrand with the tomes, it is a blatant upgrade over the core virtues and the gameplay it enticed is popping a tome and going 1-5, then doing it again with the other 2 tomes. Now firebrand is nerfed and not played in pvp but just because it is weak from a numbers side does not mean it is a well designed spec.

    Removing amulets with healing power will not fix these root issues with how the support lines (elite specs) are designed, if anet decides to go through with the deletion i can tell you the next evolution of the meta; support builds using no healing power, but instead using paladin amulet to achieve tankiness while spamming high base aoe healing abilities. Then what? If this happens will anet delete all amulets with toughness?

  • The problem is that with a tough healer the fights seem to last forever, but without a healer the fights last about 5 seconds, if anything they need to nerf that healing AND the burst damage both.

  • mixxed.5862mixxed.5862 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021

    I honestly think removing Mender's is the best change they can make. With the more sane damage level it has become the Magi's amulet of current day enabling bunkers left and right. It's just not a suitable amulet for conquest any longer. The sooner it's gone the better. The game mode will be better off.

  • snoow.1694snoow.1694 Member ✭✭✭

    They destroyed Firebrand :/

    Balance Patch every 6 weeks kappa

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    What if this game had more healing modifiers. For example, lets say we add 2 new stats that only exist in runes/sigils/traits.

    One stat gives +X% healing to allies and -X% incoming healing

    the other gives +X% incoming healing and -%X healing to allies.

    If we balance sustain around these modifiers this should help us distinguish between bunkers and supports.
    Also add boons back into the game. Low duration boons like 1-2 seconds of might,prot, ect. just make boons feel insignificant and spammy. I'd like boons to feel like a meaningful way of supporting allies again.

    I'd also like to see a buff to boon removal and boon corrupts from thief, domi mesmer, necro, and spellbreaker. Maybe also remove the CC on throw mine and reduce the CD so it doesn't break decap builds and sees use as a boon removal tool instead.

    I'm going to quote & repost this because it shouldn't be ignored.

    This is probably the best suggestion I've seen in the forum in a very long time.

    This post is the answer. A difference in two types of heal stats. A Heal stat meant to boost self heal and a heal stat designed for team support heal.

    They could easily rework classic amulets around this and balance the game again, returning a distinguished difference between selfish sustain bunkers and actual team supports.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The current state of pvp is a joke. The Devs should stop making every single profession to a training golem & start improving again.

    Its not a good thing to nerfs the "meta" classes (even though there cant be No-Meta) &make every player a rock that doesnt deal damage. Its better to buff weak classes.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    What if this game had more healing modifiers. For example, lets say we add 2 new stats that only exist in runes/sigils/traits.

    One stat gives +X% healing to allies and -X% incoming healing

    the other gives +X% incoming healing and -%X healing to allies.

    If we balance sustain around these modifiers this should help us distinguish between bunkers and supports.
    Also add boons back into the game. Low duration boons like 1-2 seconds of might,prot, ect. just make boons feel insignificant and spammy. I'd like boons to feel like a meaningful way of supporting allies again.

    I'd also like to see a buff to boon removal and boon corrupts from thief, domi mesmer, necro, and spellbreaker. Maybe also remove the CC on throw mine and reduce the CD so it doesn't break decap builds and sees use as a boon removal tool instead.

    They should have a amulet with one of those stats but not both its a really good idea and healing for self shouldn't work for both.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.