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Mystic Coin Scarcity Problem - [Merged]

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  • Cuks.8241Cuks.8241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    None of which had anything to do with your supposed purpose of MCs.

    Thanks, didn't know most of that.
    This explains the market behaviour history and could back up the case that the price is not what was intended. Maybe over time Anet still decided that the market situation is OK even though it wasn't as they predicted or they balanced by other means. Let's be honest GW2 has one of the most balanced markets of all of mmorpgs. This is one thing Anet does very well even if they don't predict everything.

    All of this has nothing with the purpose of the material such as MCs which is somewhat specific for legendaries and a few other items. The influx of MCs into the game is limited. Well at least more limited than most materials. It is to some extent time-gated but it is not hard to acquire to a certain extent.
    Many people in this thread, including me, craft legendaries at a slow pace and as such have no issues with MCs. With my tempo, I will never buy MCs and they actually align quite nicely with the acquisition of other materials. And I don't do any activity I don't enjoy just to get MCs. And I still think the purpose is to limit the number of legendaries that can be produced over time. Maybe I'm completely wrong on this but I don't see any other reason right now why introduce this specific material. And as it stands right now they are the balance in the price of legendaries due to their nature of a time-gated material vs farmable materials.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cuks.8241 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cuks.8241 said:
    I think this is actually the purpose of MCs, to keep legendaries rare and their price stable.

    No. The current situation of MCs is purely due to the belief of a certain previous GW2 economy guy, who thought that the bubble is going to burst as soon as people's bank mats tabs will get filled with MCs and they'd start selling. That decision was made when MCs were at 50s. Years later that person no longer works for Anet, but the people are still hoarding, and the price is still increasing.

    Care to elaborate on that because I dont see the connection of your post to the purpose of a material like mystic coin with limited aquisition methods.

    I mean that originally the balance between acquisition methods and demand was completely different and had nothing to do with "keeping legendaries rare and their prices stable". Nor, btw, were they limited to legendaries, as legendaries used them only for clovers, but there were other cosmetic recipes that used MCs directly.

    The spike in price resulted from two independent changes - one was change to dailies (and the removal of monthlies), and it limited acquisition a bit. Second was much more impactful, and it was a result of adding gen2 legendary weapons with their recipes requiring a stack of MCs. Notice, that the prices Anet then set for legendaries were based on the market prices and supply of mats at that time. And MCs were then extremely cheap.

    Not only introducing both of those changes one after another changed the supply to demand ratio, but releasing gen2 legendaries created huge temporary demand spikes. This demand spike massively unbalanced the market, causing the value of MCs to go up madly.

    This was when the then-local economist made a statement, that he is not going to intervene, because there's no need to - the bubble is going to burst on its own anyway very soon as soon as the initial demand spike goes down and the peoplewake up to the situation and will start selling the MCs they have in their banks.

    Unfortunately, that economist missed two things. First was that Anet started releasing new legendaries on regular schedule (first Chumpa, then the rest of gen 2.5 ones, episode after episode) which caused the demand spikes to reappear over and over again. Second, that noone sane is going to sell a material whse price is still going up unless they need gold badly right now. And that other people noticing that price going up decided, that its something good to invest in. And Anet's promise of not getting involved directly fed those hoarding tendencies.

    Which, in turn, changed MCs into Tyria's equivalent of gold bars.

    None of which had anything to do with your supposed purpose of MCs.

    Tier 2 legendary items released and cost around 2,400 gold. Mostly due to way higher pricing of Amalgamated gemstones and remaining materials being far more expensive (like Deldrimore Ingots).

    Please don't make things up.

    The rest is fine, but this claim that gen2 were cheaper at time of their release or that the intended price was cheaper is plain untrue.

    I've crafted multiple T2 and T2.5, around half of them, over the years and the price did NOT increase. On the contrary. So even IF a specific target price/cost was the goal, that had remained stable. On the contrary the release of later gen2.5 weapons just reinforced the cost/price target given they had completely made up crafting requirements.

  • DarcShriek.5829DarcShriek.5829 Member ✭✭✭

    @Frozenize.9603 said:

    @Cuks.8241 said:
    You're assuming mystic coins are the only source of clovers. I don't think it has ever been cheaper to craft or buy a legendary.

    If you are a PVE-Only player then yes Mystic Coin is the only source of Mystic Clover. For WvW Drizzlewood coast reward track is unrepeatable, for other reward tracks its about 2-4 Clovers per final box and I think it might be the same for PVP. Even if I dedicate all my gaming time (16 hours per day) to just doing WvW at most I can get 2-3 Final Box which is about 12 Clovers per day.

    This is simply not true. You can buy magic warped bundles with unbound magic that can drop clovers.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Tier 2 legendary items released and cost around 2,400 gold. Mostly due to way higher pricing of Amalgamated gemstones and remaining materials being far more expensive (like Deldrimore Ingots).

    Please don't make things up.

    The rest is fine, but this claim that gen2 were cheaper at time of their release or that the intended price was cheaper is plain untrue.

    I did not make any such claims. You are reading something in what i said that i didn't put there.

    I said, that the target price, and materials used for gen2 legendaries, were based on market situation at that time. And, at that time, MCs were not considered to be either costly or hard to obtain yet. (again, MCs, not gen2 legendaries as a whole)
    And that the JS response to MCs prices increase has shown that this increase wasn't something that Anet planned. They might have decided to allow that and not intervene in the situation, but it was not part of their original intention.

    And that, sure, the price might have remained relatively stable due to MCs price increase balancing loss of value of other mats, but it also seems to be purely accidental, and not part of a greater, original plan. Unless Anet intentionally introduced more sources for amalgamates and fine mats specifically in order to counterbalance the growing price of MCs - which, would be a very roundabout way to address the problem (especially considering the fact that doing it that way would impact far more than just the prices of legendaries). As such, i consider this possibility to be quite unlikely.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Tier 2 legendary items released and cost around 2,400 gold. Mostly due to way higher pricing of Amalgamated gemstones and remaining materials being far more expensive (like Deldrimore Ingots).

    Please don't make things up.

    The rest is fine, but this claim that gen2 were cheaper at time of their release or that the intended price was cheaper is plain untrue.

    I did not make any such claims. You are reading something in what i said that i didn't put there.

    I said, that the target price, and materials used for gen2 legendaries, were based on market situation at that time. And, at that time, MCs were not considered to be either costly or hard to obtain yet. (again, MCs, not gen2 legendaries as a whole)
    And that the JS response to MCs prices increase has shown that this increase wasn't something that Anet planned. They might have decided to allow that and not intervene in the situation, but it was not part of their original intention.

    Or, as long as the UNCHANGED target price remains where they originally designed it to be, they see no reason to adjust individual materials prices.

    Yes, their intention for certain items/materials will have been different and in fact is different. That's why we see recipes introduced with LARGE sinks for specific materials while in some cases, recipes are made cheaper or new types of acquisition were introduced.

    So while yes, they individual development of the Mystic Coin price might not have been expected, neither were specific other prices. Some of which have seen adjustment to healthier levels (healthy not always meaning cheaper).

    All I'm saying is that the cost and price argument from a legendary perspective is NOT viable. Not while crafting legendary gear is the cheapest it has ever been.

    Now does this apply to other items which also require Mystic Coins or guild upgrades? I'd say no. So that would in fact be an argument which could be made. Which I find interesting since it is almost never brought up but everyone focuses on legendary items only while the actual "collateral damage" done to other areas is being ignored (which imo just show how little the cost of MC is the issue to most but rather the expectation that legendary items should be even cheaper). Then again we have had expensive and fluctuating skins in the past, and the tolerance we as players have seen from a developer intervention point of view has always been huge.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    And that, sure, the price might have remained relatively stable due to MCs price increase balancing loss of value of other mats, but it also seems to be purely accidental, and not part of a greater, original plan. Unless Anet intentionally introduced more sources for amalgamates and fine mats specifically in order to counterbalance the growing price of MCs - which, would be a very roundabout way to address the problem (especially considering the fact that doing it that way would impact far more than just the prices of legendaries). As such, i consider this possibility to be quite unlikely.

    Or, it works the other way. If we assume legendary items have a price point at which players are willing to purchase them, all materials going into them adjust around said price.

    It is not that other materials were made cheaper to compensate for the Mystic Coin price. That is stupid. It is that the Mystic Coin prices has adapted to other prices dropping, which is far more likely if we assume an accepted price point.

    While the developer sees no reason to intervene as long as everything in-between remains within the acceptable parameters.

    It's not that you strait up said the developers wanted lower Mystic Coin prices. It's that you insinuated that the developments over the last few years have been undesired by the developers based on a one sided perspective. If at all, I'd argue the low amount of interference with the market suggests the exact opposite position from a developer stand point.

  • Luthan.5236Luthan.5236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If you say that the recipe was created with the old prices in mind (which were lower for coins) you have to also see: That recipes might have started a part (besides people using coins for off TP trading) of increase of the coin price. More uses = higher demand.

    Could be countered by changing the recipe. Could also be countered making a bigger coin supply. But in the end it always will be compared to other farming methos. Price might increase until it gets sooo expensive that - considerin the methods of acquisition stay the same - it will be more attractive for other players to get coins and sell them. (= more people doing lay line for example).

    Would be funny though if ArenaNet suddenly made something like making mystic coins accound bound once you send them through mail. Some people would cry. :D (And they still could be sold that way. If only sending them once through mail made them bound. :D)

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Or, as long as the UNCHANGED target price remains where they originally designed it to be, they see no reason to adjust individual materials prices.

    Maybe. This has nothing to do with what my post you responded to was all about however.

    In that post i was solely talking about what their intention for MCs was (and, more importantly was not), and that their increase in price was also not part of any plan. Which was a response to a poster that thought it was all planned and intended.

    It is not that other materials were made cheaper to compensate for the Mystic Coin price. That is stupid. It is that the Mystic Coin prices has adapted to other prices dropping, which is far more likely if we assume an accepted price point.

    That is equally unlikely, seeing as MCs have started "adapting" long before the value of those other materials changed. The price of gen2 legendaries seem stable now, but was fluctuating before. Nevermore cost, for example, at some point reached somewhere around 2800 gold, from what i remember. And at that time, MC price was still continuing to "adapt up". It took a plunge of value of other mats to bring the overall price of legendaries down again.

    As i see it, we're talking about a series of completely independent changes that, at this specific moment in time, might on the surface seem to be connected somehow (but actually aren't).

    It's not that you strait up said the developers wanted lower Mystic Coin prices. It's that you insinuated that the developments over the last few years have been undesired by the developers based on a one sided perspective. If at all, I'd argue the low amount of interference with the market suggests the exact opposite position from a developer stand point.

    The original statement was that they felt no need to interfere, because they thought the price will go back to old levels again on its own. In fact, when they realized it's not gonna happen, they did make some adjustments, adding few new sources of both MCs and clovers. It's just that by the time they did that, MCs have already overgrown their old role of being only a crafting material for selection of vanity gear, and became considered to be a wealth investment (and one of alternate currencies). Something i quite intentionally called the Tyria's equivalent of gold bars.

    As long as MCs are being considered a safe investment, and a stable currency you just can't really lose on investing in, their price will keep increasing, and small adjustments Anet was willing to make (and potentially might be willing to make in the future) are not going to change that.

    Basically, my point is that the current MC situation is not a result of some greater plan or grand design. It's just something that was caused by a miscalculation in the design, and gained a life on its own since then.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    but who distrub imagine that MC is acc bound and not exist on TP ?? Imagine it. Get mc from login rewards and craft yours legendary. Why not??

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Those that feel or have intimated that MCs were designed by Anet to gradually go down in price, please explain them why Anet hasn’t increased the available ways to obtain?

    Anet could easily lower the price on MCs.

    Increase the drop rate, increase ways to obtain, etc.

    To anyone who feels that Anet isn’t aware of the MC price increase, please don’t be naive. They know.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Manasa Devi.7958Manasa Devi.7958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It would've been a fine April Fool's prank if they'd posted a news item saying mystic coins will become account bound with the next patch.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    Those that feel or have intimated that MCs were designed by Anet to gradually go down in price,

    we already have unlimited source of MC- is is dayli login

    please explain them why Anet hasn’t increased the available ways to obtain?

    we already have a lot of MC on hand. I have a lot of stacks. Many people have more and more than me.

    Anet could easily lower the price on MCs.

    it is already very low. price

    Increase the drop rate, increase ways to obtain, etc.

    what the point increase drop if it easy buy on TP? it is not acc bound. Need ? Buy it.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    Those that feel or have intimated that MCs were designed by Anet to gradually go down in price, please explain them why Anet hasn’t increased the available ways to obtain?

    They did. Several new sources for both MCs and clovers were introduced since MC price started rising all that time ago. And they weren't introduced at once - those were multiple additions over the years.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Lord of the Fire.6870Lord of the Fire.6870 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think you guys and ladies miss something the changes to dallies and the gen2 legendaries happened a long time ago.
    When you look closer in is not only mystic coins , elder wood and mithril also jumped temporally .
    Yes this mean that most of was used for legendaries.

    But the reason is people want to 'finish' their game I myself build the last 4 month 4 legendaries. The people in my quasi fractal static done the same perhaps they build even more then me.

    There are 2 reasons for this :
    1.) The incoming end of the lockdown a lot of people have more time during it with the end of it they don't have time for endcontent or playing gw 2 entirely.
    2.)This game shows too many signs of being at the end of its life time it kinda hard to oversee it. I can only give a short overview:

    Balancing.)
    We are in a high sustain meta for over 2 years in all game modes. Everyone who wants to play high risk high rewards type of gameplay will be pushed out of the game sooner or later. Also the balancing is kinda stale.

    sPvP) The Feb patch last year was a nightmare the few sPvP streamer the game had all quit , (real)healer were patched out of the game, a lot of more people quit because everyone now plays bunker builds because no healer

    WvW) The game mode is very stale but if you looking for a siege war kinda game play you looking for the wrong game now. It still there in theory but nerfed everything related to it basically it is death so at least half of the players moved on from the game mode or game . The people who are still in it doing mass PvP or Guild vs Guild and some roamers . The problem is also mass pvp is much better in other games.

    PvE) CONTENT WHERE ARE YOU?? xD well there is but who wants to grind DRMs ? Actually the situation of some content is complicated and seems to miss the main audience.

    Bugs ) There are too many bugs inside the game and some are game breaking and not patched after a year. This is usually what you see in an f2p MMO hust

    The main problem is that the game evolved away from its original formula for the classes and content design and then left basically people behind . This isn't something entirely new I saw this in a lot of MMOs main reason for this is playerS pressure for a change that the developers change XY posting like wild on the board at some point the developers give in to compromise even if it contradicts the design philosophy and idea this repeats a few times and at some point the original developer isn't in charge of it any more .The next developer picks it up and continue where the last developer changed the system and continue in this direction until the house is on fire.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Or, as long as the UNCHANGED target price remains where they originally designed it to be, they see no reason to adjust individual materials prices.

    Maybe. This has nothing to do with what my post you responded to was all about however.

    In that post i was solely talking about what their intention for MCs was (and, more importantly was not), and that their increase in price was also not part of any plan. Which was a response to a poster that thought it was all planned and intended.

    It is not that other materials were made cheaper to compensate for the Mystic Coin price. That is stupid. It is that the Mystic Coin prices has adapted to other prices dropping, which is far more likely if we assume an accepted price point.

    That is equally unlikely, seeing as MCs have started "adapting" long before the value of those other materials changed. The price of gen2 legendaries seem stable now, but was fluctuating before. Nevermore cost, for example, at some point reached somewhere around 2800 gold, from what i remember.

    True, but back then the cost increase was not due to Mystic Coins.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    As i see it, we're talking about a series of completely independent changes that, at this specific moment in time, might on the surface seem to be connected somehow (but actually aren't).

    and I am saying there are relationships between these developments and this is not pure Luck.

    It is not Luck that legendary items have remained stable in cost/price with a fluctuation of maybe 20%. What you claim to be a singular moment in time has remained true for the vast majority of the game.

    It is not Luck that this games economy has remained stable without massive inflation in all areas.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    It's not that you strait up said the developers wanted lower Mystic Coin prices. It's that you insinuated that the developments over the last few years have been undesired by the developers based on a one sided perspective. If at all, I'd argue the low amount of interference with the market suggests the exact opposite position from a developer stand point.

    The original statement was that they felt no need to interfere, because they thought the price will go back to old levels again on its own. In fact, when they realized it's not gonna happen, they did make some adjustments, adding few new sources of both MCs and clovers. It's just that by the time they did that, MCs have already overgrown their old role of being only a crafting material for selection of vanity gear, and became considered to be a wealth investment (and one of alternate currencies). Something i quite intentionally called the Tyria's equivalent of gold bars.

    The original peice would have been 2s. Which original price are we talking about? As far as I remember the claim was that a bubbel in the Mystic Coin price woild not be sustainable. We have not seen any long- or ecmven midterm bubbel so far.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    As long as MCs are being considered a safe investment, and a stable currency you just can't really lose on investing in, their price will keep increasing, and small adjustments Anet was willing to make (and potentially might be willing to make in the future) are not going to change that.

    Really, what about the players who bought MC near 3 gold in the recent price spike? You are assuming an endless growth for Mystic Coins, which is highly unlikely. That is not the same as there being room for further increase in value.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Basically, my point is that the current MC situation is not a result of some greater plan or grand design. It's just something that was caused by a miscalculation in the design, and gained a life on its own since then.

    Maybe, but as long as it does not go against the grand design, even a miscalculation can work the the developers favor. Again, we have seen Arenanet step in when they felt it is necessary, most recently with Prismaticite.

    So far there has been absolutely 0 indication that this "miscalculation" is not intended by the developers. If they do have a certain cost in mind for legendary gear, it is far easier to manipulate 1 material once it reaches undesired levels than adjust multiple materials. So if the devlopers wanted to adjust the legendary item cost for example, they would have intervened by now.

    My guess is, as long as their metrics show that enough MC are entering the game, are entering the market and are consumed and used, they will see 0 need to make adjustments. That's where we are at right now and have been for the majority of this games lifecycle.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    True, but back then the cost increase was not due to Mystic Coins.

    True, not primarily to MCs anyway (they did contribute, but not as much as other factors - in Nevermore's case it was mainly the price of elderwood spiking, if i remember right). The point is, that there was a moment in the past where the cost of all of the other mats was going up, and yet, MCs still continued to increase in price. In fact, MCs value kept rising regardless of what happened to legendary price or cost of other mats. Which suggests it was not conected to those in any way.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    As i see it, we're talking about a series of completely independent changes that, at this specific moment in time, might on the surface seem to be connected somehow (but actually aren't).

    and I am saying there are relationships between these developments and this is not pure Luck.

    See above.

    At this point in time it may seem there is a relationship, but there were points in the past where it was clear that relationship does not, in fact, exist.

    It is not Luck that this games economy has remained stable without massive inflation in all areas.

    That i agree with. MCs are practically the only exception out there that is on constant increase. But exception they are.

    The original peice would have been 2s. Which original price are we talking about? As far as I remember the claim was that a bubbel in the Mystic Coin price woild not be sustainable. We have not seen any long- or ecmven midterm bubbel so far.

    The claim then was that the price at 50s and rising was the bubble. One that is eventually going to burst and bring the price down to below that. And yes, from what we've seen since then, there was indeed no bubble at all. And that is why it will never "burst" on its own, and will continue rising (barring any more serious intervention by Anet).

    Really, what about the players who bought MC near 3 gold in the recent price spike? You are assuming an endless growth for Mystic Coins, which is highly unlikely. That is not the same as there being room for further increase in value.

    It's a currency now. In a virtual economy. Of course it can keep increasing in value, as long as nothing will happen that will directly challenge that value's stability. Sure, perhaps there's a theoretical limit to its growth, but it's probably high enough that we'll never actually see it. And th fact that MCs value increase seems to be slowly accelerating (instead of slowing down) suggests we're still very, very far from reaching it.
    (remember, in a year we went from a spike to 2g value, to a spike to 3g and a stable "low" level at ~2.3g)

    My guess is, as long as their metrics show that enough MC are entering the game, are entering the market and are consumed and used, they will see 0 need to make adjustments. That's where we are at right now and have been for the majority of this games lifecycle.

    The metrics do show that. They were showing that from the beginning. And thy were originally carefully calculated. It's just that (as the few original statements by JS revealed), they ignored one factor then (and seem to be ignoring it even now) - specifically, they never expected people will hoard MCs. They fully expected all MCs entering the game to be either used up for crafting, or sold (and used up by the buyer for crafting). And, yet, as it turned out, players decided to just keep to a large part of them, which severely unbalanced the calculation.

    All of this happened even though it was quite easy to predict. Some of us kept telling JS then that this pattern will continue to hold, but he was absolutely certain that the people hoarding MCs will start selling "anytime now", which will burst the "bubble". And by the time he realized that it's just not going to happen, it was too late to easily do something about it without triggering some other, unexpected and potentially undesirable consequences.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • DeanBB.4268DeanBB.4268 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Meh, was all excited to log in my alt accounts and sell whatever MCs they had acquired, only to discover the price was only 2.10.9.

    X__________________________
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  • rune.9572rune.9572 Member ✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    Here's an easy solution for ya: just delete mystic coins from the game.

    No, seriously.

    Replace them with mystic curios everywhere. Boom, problem solved, and you also made common crafting materials not-worthless. Add more recipes for mystic curios as needed.

    Problem solved, next.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rune.9572 said:
    Here's an easy solution for ya: just delete mystic coins from the game.

    No, seriously.

    Replace them with mystic curios everywhere. Boom, problem solved, and you also made common crafting materials not-worthless. Add more recipes for mystic curios as needed.

    Problem solved, next.

    This assumes that a problem exists in the first place, which many of us (I believe) do not find it to be so.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • rune.9572rune.9572 Member ✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    This assumes that a problem exists in the first place, which many of us (I believe) do not find it to be so.

    The beauty of my solution is that it doesn't care if there is a problem or not. It just works regardless :)

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rune.9572 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    This assumes that a problem exists in the first place, which many of us (I believe) do not find it to be so.

    The beauty of my solution is that it doesn't care if there is a problem or not. It just works regardless :)

    Perhaps, but the point I was trying to make is that no solution is warranted because no problem exists.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • rune.9572rune.9572 Member ✭✭

    Perhaps, but the point I was trying to make is that no solution is warranted because no problem exists.

    That's just like, your opinion man

  • Bristingr.5034Bristingr.5034 Member ✭✭✭

    The Automated PvP Tournament helps. Even if you don't get the Mystic Coin (Top 8 needed), the Top 16 still gives 5 Gold, so you can snatch a Coin or two from the TP with that. There's so few teams anymore that do it, it's an automatic 5 gold (never more than 12 teams at most; sometimes less than 8).

  • Dami.5046Dami.5046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't know about MC's but I'd rather see clovers go tradeable.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:

    @firedragon.8953 said:
    Honestly, I don't see a problem.

    However, let's have some fun here.
    They should add the ability to purchase mystic coins with a big sack of dungeon token currency. 400 dungeon tokens for most dungeons and 300 dungeon tokens for level 80 dungeons. They should make a little "skritt black market trader" that moves around core Tyria like Historian Elisa moves around Elona and will trade golden shinnies for dungeon shinnies, yes?!. However, cap out the daily maximum purchase of coins from the skritt at 5 coins a day. Make dungeons great again! haha

    PVE doesn't need more incentives. If anything that should be a weekly WVW vendor for legendary spikes and emblems , or bimonthly (right before relink).

    I suggested that in a stand alone thread and the WvW community kitten all over it.

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    No. The current situation of MCs is purely due to the belief of a certain previous GW2 economy guy, who thought that the bubble is going to burst as soon as people's bank mats tabs will get filled with MCs and they'd start selling. That decision was made when MCs were at 50s. Years later that person no longer works for Anet, but the people are still hoarding, and the price is still increasing.

    He is not wrong. At least for me. That is exactly what I would do with overflow coins. Unfortunately it is going to take 3-6 years to fill the storage assuming I stop using any coins in that time period.

    Edit: There is also another important thing people seem to be ignoring. MC as an alternate currency to get around the gold limit on mail and price limit on TP. A 20k trade using 3g as the value per coin would take over 6k coins or 26 stacks. Compare that to the 32k of coins being sold on the TP right now that is a lot for a trade or two. It would only take a small number of people thinking(so they are storing a large amount but not large enough to actually pay for the trade) about doing such trades to gobble up the equivalent of all that is currently on the TP. Until those trades are completed they coins are taken out of circulation and they may stay out of circulation afterwards if the seller keeps them for future purchases.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    True, but back then the cost increase was not due to Mystic Coins.

    True, not primarily to MCs anyway (they did contribute, but not as much as other factors - in Nevermore's case it was mainly the price of elderwood spiking, if i remember right). The point is, that there was a moment in the past where the cost of all of the other mats was going up, and yet, MCs still continued to increase in price. In fact, MCs value kept rising regardless of what happened to legendary price or cost of other mats. Which suggests it was not conected to those in any way.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    As i see it, we're talking about a series of completely independent changes that, at this specific moment in time, might on the surface seem to be connected somehow (but actually aren't).

    and I am saying there are relationships between these developments and this is not pure Luck.

    See above.

    At this point in time it may seem there is a relationship, but there were points in the past where it was clear that relationship does not, in fact, exist.

    It is not Luck that this games economy has remained stable without massive inflation in all areas.

    That i agree with. MCs are practically the only exception out there that is on constant increase. But exception they are.

    The original peice would have been 2s. Which original price are we talking about? As far as I remember the claim was that a bubbel in the Mystic Coin price woild not be sustainable. We have not seen any long- or ecmven midterm bubbel so far.

    The claim then was that the price at 50s and rising was the bubble. One that is eventually going to burst and bring the price down to below that. And yes, from what we've seen since then, there was indeed no bubble at all. And that is why it will never "burst" on its own, and will continue rising (barring any more serious intervention by Anet).

    Let me give you a quote:

    “640K ought to be enough for anyone” — Bill Gates (you can read up on the history and meaning of the quote her: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/09/08/640k-enough/ )

    That statement was applicable and valid for its time (1985) and while no one would make a similar statement in this form today, a parallel could be drawn by stating: no personal computer needs more than 64gb worth of ram (or which ever amount you currently would feel comfortable with). This would be just as true for the current time, and ages just as incorrectly if quoted 10 years down the road.

    The mistake back then was that there was an assumption of 50s being a bubble. It obviously wasn't and it did not bring the price back down. By now this "mistake" will have been discovered, but it seems obvious that it was not a mistake in the market but rather in the assumption which might have resulted in a rather a lucky accident which allowed easy price manipulation of high end items and storage of wealth outside of the gold cap.

    That is WITHOUT factoring for increased demand from a veteran player base where far more players are crafting and requiring Mystic Coins and far more legendary items for unique slots requiring Mystic Coins. Those 50s back then, when adjusted for inflation and higher demand, could very well be 2g and even far higher currently.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Really, what about the players who bought MC near 3 gold in the recent price spike? You are assuming an endless growth for Mystic Coins, which is highly unlikely. That is not the same as there being room for further increase in value.

    It's a currency now. In a virtual economy. Of course it can keep increasing in value, as long as nothing will happen that will directly challenge that value's stability. Sure, perhaps there's a theoretical limit to its growth, but it's probably high enough that we'll never actually see it. And th fact that MCs value increase seems to be slowly accelerating (instead of slowing down) suggests we're still very, very far from reaching it.
    (remember, in a year we went from a spike to 2g value, to a spike to 3g and a stable "low" level at ~2.3g)

    We are stable at 2.1g now. You are mixing buy order and sell order values. The "spike" to 2g was a spike to 2g/2.1g which has increased to 2.1/2.3g currently. Hardly a groundbreaking increase but rather a reaction to the further decline of other materials. Remember, Amalgamated Gemstones nearly halved in value, T6 materials dropped even more too.

    There is obviously also a slow probing for how high the price can be pushed. Market failure does not set in at where some player feel uncomfortable at though.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    My guess is, as long as their metrics show that enough MC are entering the game, are entering the market and are consumed and used, they will see 0 need to make adjustments. That's where we are at right now and have been for the majority of this games lifecycle.

    The metrics do show that. They were showing that from the beginning. And thy were originally carefully calculated. It's just that (as the few original statements by JS revealed), they ignored one factor then (and seem to be ignoring it even now) - specifically, they never expected people will hoard MCs. They fully expected all MCs entering the game to be either used up for crafting, or sold (and used up by the buyer for crafting). And, yet, as it turned out, players decided to just keep to a large part of them, which severely unbalanced the calculation.

    All of this happened even though it was quite easy to predict. Some of us kept telling JS then that this pattern will continue to hold, but he was absolutely certain that the people hoarding MCs will start selling "anytime now", which will burst the "bubble".

    Let me rephrase what you just said: Players have been complaining about the Mystic Coin price the moment it increased beyond 2s (and the majority started to appear around a 50s value). It was never true in the past. It is not true now. It possibly might become true in the future.

    You are correct though, eventually Mystic Coin could increase in value far enough to be an issue. If we take 2,800 gold as a baseline for crafting Nevermore (currently 2,184g), that would mean a Mystic Coin price of current+1.27g = 3.47g/3.67g at similar remaining materials cost. That's still a way off. Once we get there and IF this price is deemed to high, I'm sure the developers will react. Which will then lead to a wave of "I told you so" statements from players who have been waiting for over 6 years for that moment. Which says about everything one needs to know about the value of these predictions.

    As far as

    And by the time he realized that it's just not going to happen, it was too late to easily do something about it without triggering some other, unexpected and potentially undesirable consequences.

    If that was true in the past, it is even more true now. So in essence you are basically stating that there is no fix to this so complaining makes no sense. I'd disagree here since we have seen far worse interruptions in the games economy and other inflation resistant items were just as easily addressed (see Black Lion Weapon skins, which were the past inflation resistant and always increasing in value investment, right until recurring skins were introduced).

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    That is WITHOUT factoring for increased demand from a veteran player base where far more players are crafting and requiring Mystic Coins and far more legendary items for unique slots requiring Mystic Coins. Those 50s back then, when adjusted for inflation and higher demand, could very well be 2g and even far higher currently.

    Inflation would have affected everything, not just selectively only MCs.

    We are stable at 2.1g now. You are mixing buy order and sell order values. The "spike" to 2g was a spike to 2g/2.1g which has increased to 2.1/2.3g currently.

    Yes. Something that was a high spike a year ago is now considered to be stable low value. That's btw show how "stable" it really is.

    Hardly a groundbreaking increase but rather a reaction to the further decline of other materials. Remember, Amalgamated Gemstones nearly halved in value, T6 materials dropped even more too.

    Like i said, past history of comparing MC prices with prices of stuff like Amalgamates, fine T6s and wood/metal show, that the MC trend is completely independent of what happens to all those mats. When they go down, MCs go up, but when they were increasing, MCs also kept going up.
    There's no "reaction".

    You are correct though, eventually Mystic Coin could increase in value far enough to be an issue. If we take 2,800 gold as a baseline for crafting Nevermore (currently 2,184g), that would mean a Mystic Coin price of current+1.27g = 3.47g/3.67g at similar remaining materials cost. That's still a way off.

    Maybe. Still, the price increase keeps going at a rate faster than anyone except most pessimistic players predicted. It wasn't so long ago when the stable price as 1.6 and spike to 1.8g was temporary. Then the stable price was 1.8g and a spike to 2g was temporary... and here we are now with "stable price" at 2.1g
    So, i'm not that optimistic about how fast getting to that level will take.

    Also, that's only if all other mats will keep remaining at their low point and won't recover. I'd expect a number of new recipes to come with the expansion (including some pricey ones), so that may change relatively soon.

    If that was true in the past, it is even more true now. So in essence you are basically stating that there is no fix to this so complaining makes no sense.

    I'm saying that there's no easy fix to it. They probably could have addressed this easily right away, but now it would require much more effort and careful touch. Or willingness to use a hammer approach.

    Doesn't mean i think everything is fine though. And i definitely don't think that people should shut up and stop complaining even if they don't see an easy solution for something they think is a problem.

    I'd disagree here since we have seen far worse interruptions in the games economy and other inflation resistant items were just as easily addressed (see Black Lion Weapon skins, which were the past inflation resistant and always increasing in value investment, right until recurring skins were introduced).

    Remember, that one of the reasons the black lion weapon skins (and past dyes) were addressed and introduced as recurring drops was because some of those skins (and dyes) increased in price to the point where complains about that got louder and more frequent.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    If that was true in the past, it is even more true now. So in essence you are basically stating that there is no fix to this so complaining makes no sense.

    I'm saying that there's no easy fix to it. They probably could have addressed this easily right away, but now it would require much more effort and careful touch. Or willingness to use a hammer approach.

    Doesn't mean i think everything is fine though. And i definitely don't think that people should shut up and stop complaining even if they don't see an easy solution for something they think is a problem.

    I'd disagree here since we have seen far worse interruptions in the games economy and other inflation resistant items were just as easily addressed (see Black Lion Weapon skins, which were the past inflation resistant and always increasing in value investment, right until recurring skins were introduced).

    Remember, that one of the reasons the black lion weapon skins (and past dyes) were addressed and introduced as recurring drops was because some of those skins (and dyes) increased in price to the point where complains about that got louder and more frequent.

    Absolutely, I might disagree but I would not disagree with players voicing concerns. Who knows, if the price does keep climbing I might join in in 1.5-2 gold.

  • WindBlade.8749WindBlade.8749 Member ✭✭✭

    The thing with MC is that it's have a lot of pratical use, it's more than a buble that why it's keep climbing.

    MC is basicly the second currency of this game at this point, the price follow the inflation and it's used in a lot of trade to avoid tax and have more than 500g trade by week (without speaking about the neverending legendary crafting from players). That why i don't see it's falling except if aenet act.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rune.9572 said:

    Perhaps, but the point I was trying to make is that no solution is warranted because no problem exists.

    That's just like, your opinion man

    Yes, it is my opinion. Same as everyone else in this thread.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Lord of the Fire.6870Lord of the Fire.6870 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Khisanth.2948 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    No. The current situation of MCs is purely due to the belief of a certain previous GW2 economy guy, who thought that the bubble is going to burst as soon as people's bank mats tabs will get filled with MCs and they'd start selling. That decision was made when MCs were at 50s. Years later that person no longer works for Anet, but the people are still hoarding, and the price is still increasing.

    He is not wrong. At least for me. That is exactly what I would do with overflow coins. Unfortunately it is going to take 3-6 years to fill the storage assuming I stop using any coins in that time period.

    Edit: There is also another important thing people seem to be ignoring. MC as an alternate currency to get around the gold limit on mail and price limit on TP. A 20k trade using 3g as the value per coin would take over 6k coins or 26 stacks. Compare that to the 32k of coins being sold on the TP right now that is a lot for a trade or two. It would only take a small number of people thinking(so they are storing a large amount but not large enough to actually pay for the trade) about doing such trades to gobble up the equivalent of all that is currently on the TP. Until those trades are completed they coins are taken out of circulation and they may stay out of circulation afterwards if the seller keeps them for future purchases.

    Really if my calculation are correct it will takes my a bit over a year with 1250 st which fit in my storage. Well this amuses I'm doing cm fractals on a daily basis.

  • Doggie.3184Doggie.3184 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    I made all the legendaries I want so I enjoy the "scarcity" currently, even though there's a lot of them up. :) Keep buying my coins so I can get my money back. Sold an entire stack last week.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Never understood the issue. Shouldn't legendaries be difficult to craft? A few hundred gold is hardly anything.

    It makes no sense to chase a gold sink and complain about the price.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Never understood the issue. Shouldn't legendaries be difficult to craft? A few hundred gold is hardly anything.

    MCs are used not only for legendaries. They are also used for many, many other nonlegendary weapon recipes, for guild upgrades, for food plate/feast recipes, for armor box/satchel recipes... some of those recipes no longer make any sense now, because when they were created they assumed MCs to be extremely cheap and easy to get.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Funky.4861Funky.4861 Member ✭✭✭

    Make them account-bound. If you want them badly enough, you'll do what it takes to get them.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Never understood the issue. Shouldn't legendaries be difficult to craft? A few hundred gold is hardly anything.

    MCs are used not only for legendaries. They are also used for many, many other nonlegendary weapon recipes, for guild upgrades, for food plate/feast recipes, for armor box/satchel recipes... some of those recipes no longer make any sense now, because when they were created they assumed MCs to be extremely cheap and easy to get.

    Most of those recipes never made any sense in the first place and would make no sense now, even if MCs were cheap. Exotic and below feasts are not cost efficient because they usually required 10 of the normal food. It's now completely redundant with ascended food so It's pretty silly to bring up this at all. Same with Exotic Armor box sets; these never had a point because was not even cheaper to craft them vs crafting pieces individually.

    As for those exotic mystic/ecto skins. they're really not that much expensive than before, because ectos and t6 mats have gotten cheaper, so that's really not something worth whining.

    The only thing that remotely made any sense to make are the Mystic weapons, but that's when exotics were a bit pricey so they've pretty much passed their use since many exotic weapons are so cheap now.

    Not to mention the OP and initial replies focused around legendaries, which is consistent with pretty much most discussions on this matter. So I am skeptical that any complaints focus around all those other things and bringing them up is a red herring at best.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    Interestingly, there is a consistently increasing in demand since Nov 2020 that hasn't ceased. Are there some new recipes that need MC's released since then or is it pure speculation people are buying them up anticipating need for MC's when EoD is released?

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Never understood the issue. Shouldn't legendaries be difficult to craft? A few hundred gold is hardly anything.

    MCs are used not only for legendaries. They are also used for many, many other nonlegendary weapon recipes, for guild upgrades, for food plate/feast recipes, for armor box/satchel recipes... some of those recipes no longer make any sense now, because when they were created they assumed MCs to be extremely cheap and easy to get.

    Perhaps a request could be made to reduce the mystic coin requirements on them then? Well not for guild upgrades since those should remain a guild effort. I have no data on this but I believe that the primary sink for mystic coins are legendaries due to how many they use. The other things that use them require significantly less coins and tend to be a one-time sort of thing.

  • keenedge.9675keenedge.9675 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Let me give you a quote:

    “640K ought to be enough for anyone” — Bill Gates (you can read up on the history and meaning of the quote her: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/09/08/640k-enough/ )

    BTW, Bill Gates denies ever making that statement. It was inferred from the design of the original PC, which was also NOT his design.

    Moral Statute Machine: John Spartan, you are fined five credits for repeated violations of the verbal morality statute.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2021

    Anet have actually added more mystic coin sources recently. One additional fractal CM, the Drizzlewood coast commendations for clovers, and also the Icebrood saga reward tracks that give lots of clovers (/shiver track coming soon).

    The recent spike in price probably has to do with 3 factors coinciding. Legendary armory will obviously increase demand for legendary gear. Judging by precedent, there will be a legendary trinket in chapter 4 of the Icebrood saga. Also, players tend to make legendaries as a preparation goal for upcoming expansions as it is, especially for the new elite specs.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2021

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    The recent spike in price probably has to do with 3 factors coinciding. Legendary armory will obviously increase demand for legendary gear. Judging by precedent, there will be a legendary trinket in chapter 4 of the Icebrood saga. Also, players tend to make legendaries as a preparation goal for upcoming expansions as it is, especially for the new elite specs.

    Actually, we do know that at least one of the recent spikes in price (last November) was caused by one (and the same) player. I'm not sure that he was behind the last month one as well, but from what i understand he did greatly contribute to making it possible. In both cases the price recovered after a spike, but (also in both cases) to a value that was greater than the one before the spike.
    At least one of those cases (the November one) had absolutely nothing to do with happenings within the game, but was a result of an argument between players from trading community

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • TwoGhosts.6790TwoGhosts.6790 Member ✭✭✭

    Availability is fine.
    Cost is fine.

  • Zaxares.5419Zaxares.5419 Member ✭✭✭

    Leaving aside the issue of whether or not MCs are overpriced at the moment, I think that if ANet wanted to increase the supply, probably the best solution would be to tie it to the various daily categories. For example, currently players get 2g for completing any 3 dailies. What if you also received a MC for completing 3 PvE dailies, 3 PvP dailies, and 3 WvW dailies (1 each, so a bonus 3 per day if you did all of them). Not only would this increase supply, but it would also increase participation in other game modes that could badly use an infusion of new blood. (PvP in particular. It's kind of disheartening when you do matches and keep on getting the same people, or worse, bots, over and over, day after day. It's like a "is this ALL of us??" feeling.)

    This could also be expanded to the various LS daily categories to help breathe new life into abandoned zones.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zaxares.5419 said:
    Leaving aside the issue of whether or not MCs are overpriced at the moment, I think that if ANet wanted to increase the supply, probably the best solution would be to tie it to the various daily categories. For example, currently players get 2g for completing any 3 dailies. What if you also received a MC for completing 3 PvE dailies, 3 PvP dailies, and 3 WvW dailies (1 each, so a bonus 3 per day if you did all of them). Not only would this increase supply, but it would also increase participation in other game modes that could badly use an infusion of new blood. (PvP in particular. It's kind of disheartening when you do matches and keep on getting the same people, or worse, bots, over and over, day after day. It's like a "is this ALL of us??" feeling.)

    This could also be expanded to the various LS daily categories to help breathe new life into abandoned zones.

    I think, while i agree with you for the most part, that would anger a lot of people because they'd be thinking they're forced to do modes they don't like. Especially if there's a MC reward for raids as well, people would be furious lol. From what i read on the forums, and that's by no means the "general consensus" but still.... If there's a rare reward for something, people feel like it's an obligation rather than an option, and that doesn't sit well with most.

    Though, one way of increasing supply would be to just get 1 MC for any finished daily. That way people can still do what they like, and the supply increases.
    And honestly, i don't even think prices would drop much with that, if at all, cause i'm sure barons would find a way to "stabilize" the price to what suits them lol. Kind of a win/win i guess haha.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2021

    @firedragon.8953 said:
    Honestly, I don't see a problem.

    However, let's have some fun here.
    They should add the ability to purchase mystic coins with a big sack of dungeon token currency. 400 dungeon tokens for most dungeons and 300 dungeon tokens for level 80 dungeons. They should make a little "skritt black market trader" that moves around core Tyria like Historian Elisa moves around Elona and will trade golden shinnies for dungeon shinnies, yes?!. However, cap out the daily maximum purchase of coins from the skritt at 5 coins a day. Make dungeons great again! haha

    this. dungeons could be the de facto farm for anything that has a rapidly rising cost.

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2021

    Dungeons aren't "supported content". If anything they would be added to strike, DRM , fractal, or raid vendor...

    Also almost every festival acts as a mystic coin faucet if the festival currency cost is low enough.

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zaxares.5419 said:
    Leaving aside the issue of whether or not MCs are overpriced at the moment, I think that if ANet wanted to increase the supply, probably the best solution would be to tie it to the various daily categories. For example, currently players get 2g for completing any 3 dailies. What if you also received a MC for completing 3 PvE dailies, 3 PvP dailies, and 3 WvW dailies (1 each, so a bonus 3 per day if you did all of them). Not only would this increase supply, but it would also increase participation in other game modes that could badly use an infusion of new blood. (PvP in particular. It's kind of disheartening when you do matches and keep on getting the same people, or worse, bots, over and over, day after day. It's like a "is this ALL of us??" feeling.)

    This could also be expanded to the various LS daily categories to help breathe new life into abandoned zones.

    or it gives an infusion of more bots, semi-afk teammates, and teammates who are worse than a bot. I am pretty sure PvP has more than enough of those already.

  • Crystal Paladin.3871Crystal Paladin.3871 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2021

    Maybe ppl are buying a lot of mystic coins and gamble it on mystic toilet to get clovers.. maybe that's causing the shortage of mystic coins... If we craft a legendary, it should feel like its worthy to be called a legendary... nowadays.. ppl farm mindlessly for gold (players/casuals/tp players) just accumulate gold buy coins off tp and dump mystic coins into the toilet and increase demand for mystic coins and thus price rise up rapidly more than the supply can compensate for it...

    My suggestion would be... anet should remove the recipe to obtain clovers from coins in mystic toilet... Legendaries should not be crafted by throwing money at it... Gen2 legendaries is okay... since it has some time gated materials and u can't craft or buy gen2 legendaries by simply throwing money at it... Increased price for mystic coins is also a good thing coz u can't simply buy mc for low price and finish legendaries and that would defeat the meaning of a legendary...

    some ppl in forums might feel so proud that they are crafting legendary every week like as if they earned those legendaries... its all bcoz of that D.A.M.N clover recipe in mystic forge.. pls remove the recipe... when I craft a legendary with every step gathering clovers in fractal vendor, wvw reward track, pvp reward track and gathering mystic coins thru all painstaking ways and feel proud to craft a legendary, and suddenly I hear someone thowing money at it and crafting legendary every week, that totally disheartens me.. the word "Legendaries" lost its sheen.. might as well rename it to "coindaries"

    removing the clover recipe from mystic forge will reduce(significantly) the list of posts like "mystic coin price increase/mystic coin fix price/ mystic coin controlled by tp barons" and all other QQ posts regarding mystic coins

    above section might be incoherent and might irritate few ppl... but the point im trying to convey is remove clover recipe from forge and bring glory to the word "legendary" and bring respect to those honestly put effort into crafting one and not throwing money at it...

    edit:
    made sure no words are replaced by "kitten" X)