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Nocturnal Lunacy.8563
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Tagless commanding is hurting wvw and servers
Nocturnal Lunacy.8563
Member ✭✭✭
in WvW
Going tagless cuz you "think" pugs aren't good enuf to join your squad. What makes you so perfect that you think you have the right to judge somebody else in a game that carries the player? New players are turned off or xfer to other servers cuz all the commanders won't allow them to follow. I rarely see a tag on my server. I won't join the squad but when my server is lacking in population cuz the commanders won't let them join.
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Players that think that the "game carries the player" are why groups run private tags.
This insistence that people who don't want to carry others are somehow "hurting" the game are among to absolute most ridiculous this forum spews out.
Are you tagging up?
Didn't think so.
"We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19
i say this all the time.. stop complaining and just tag yourself. why is everyone expecting someone else to carry and hold their hand through entire game? ah we have no commanders so i will just stand in keep for 1h until commander is here. ah commander won’t let me join cus of my class , ah commander is using private squad
literally just tag up yourself and bring your own friends, invite the other pugs. ez pz.
i’m not even a commander, full time roamer, but i have the tags and i’ve pulled a squad of around 20 ppl before.
Whenever I check the Fort Aspenwood discord, I find:
These are people currently not allowed on Fort Aspenwood Discord:
Nocturnal Lunacy - crimes against intelligence
That must mean you done something on FA to prevent you from joining these squads.
I'm not sure I would put this on top of my list for changes in wvw..
People have the right to play with who they want, and equally have the right to choose to be exclusive with their groups.
Ah, yes. We HAVE run out of things to complain.
This is a case of "don't hate the player, hate the game".
The system right now is either there is a tag or the game is dead for all intents and purposes. That needs to change.
Eh, we knew the change to private tags would hurt the population, it's the reason why anet didn't want to in the first place but enough guilds cried about it I suppose.
Even though it's a Massive Multiplayer Online Game, players still have the right to play in private groups if they wish.
They paid for the game just like you, they can play however they want, just like you.
They have the choice to put up the tag publicly or not. I will say putting the tag to 300gold was a dumb move, but, par for the course in wvw. There really should be a mastery tag, just like the apple one for pve.
I do find it funny when these private guild groups struggle to fight enemy groups, then suddenly, their tag goes up and they tell you to get in discord to join squad with meta classes, then I laugh and go about my business in roaming, I got nine classes and you'll get none in your squad. Or they simply tuck tail and run to another map.
^ Another derailing post - Anet
Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
/Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me
Sorry but, we just had a closed raid tonight, against another servers Guild and Open Tag, but all we had was pugs and some random Core Warrior; who was running to the other side of the map to 'scout'.
So going hidden tag is the best option for us, to avoid pugs ruining our stealth and rallying, unless the other tag can get properly organized, if there isn't another Guild group to support us, instead of pugs who are trying to leech.. on rangers, thieves and mesmers yes.
Also on EB alot of pugs I've noticed, afk to wait for a tag or to pip farm, or they are roaming off tag and cloud around the tags, even if there is an visible open tag on the map.
Desolation WvW Main for 9 years.
How much are you paying people to join their squad?
They're not obligated to take you.
I've seen people selling WvW participation if you just want gift of battle...
P.S. Public commanding is +3 pips so use your own judgement on why someone would run closed.
Join comms and play what they're asking for in their comp. If you don't have their discord, ask. It's usually that easy, no different from raiding or any other competitive group activity.
there's some good reasons groups run closed:
-if the pugs know where you are and are feeding kills, they can lose you the fight by rallying all the opponent downs
-if they don't use arcdps it's very difficult to convince them that their core d/d condi ele is not doing 'massive deeps' when you really need a heal tempest
-if they're not in comms they won't know when/where to move, so will likely die and rally downs
-they may soak up healing or boons that would be better applied to your core players. If a scrapper in p3 is 300 units away from a firebrand in p1 using a mantra while a core ranger in p7 is 200 units away, the core ranger gets the boons.
-who knows what the pug that refuses to communicate is running. If your comp relies on applying 0 conditions so their scrappers can't generate boons and you pick up a pug who wants to roleplay as an ice princess that maximizes chill output, that pug is giving the entire enemy squad free alacrity.
-if there's a spy watching you for a group on another server
-if you're trying to tighten your core players up without outside interference so you can improve as a group
-if you're trying to have a relaxed night without pressure from the server to come save a keep or w/e
there's really only two reasons for a tag to run open:
-you need to coordinate with another group on the map
-you're recruiting/building the community
In general, if you're using a roaming build the best thing you can do for the zerg is go tap their keep (ask for participation, they'll probably give it to you) or snipe squishy targets that are freecasting.
Theres nothing wrong whatsoever with tagless raids. Guilds have been doing that since the game came out. The current issue is a lack of pugmanders. If your server has a lack of pugmanders, then feel free to tag up.
Wanna Duel?
"When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease." -Exedore
Do commanders still blame pugs when they run private and yet still get one push wiped?
Asking for science.
^ Another derailing post - Anet
Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
/Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me
No they blaim the roamers across the map for not being in the squad and then when the roamers join the squad they blaim the roamers for not capping the camps across the map.
gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
A disorderly group of Asura.
"The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"
So true...
^ Another derailing post - Anet
Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
/Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me
I would say tagging hurts WvW more then these tagless commanders. People in WvW now are so accustomed to having tags they literally will afk until a tag shows up. The days where the main zerg will fight the other server main zerg while small man group will ninja t3 stuff, I mean cuz u know the lord is easier to kill with 5 then it is with 30...?
I would say tagging up only benefits when defending an objective to collectively gather people together to defend something but if u want to take objectives going tagless and small man skirmishes on multiple fronts is much better.
As a tag for piken square I actually 100% agree with this but one thing you stated does actually bug me a little bit.
This is the most common reason for commanders to tag down, solo mentalities of players.
theyd have to actually tag first in order to detag
Claim buff and relinkings are the problem.
Simply fix those.
90% pugs just suck, and if you throw one servers pugs 800 extra stats, there are no fights to be had.
Ri Ba - Charr of logic
twitch.tv/ribatime
~Key to fixing WvW with minimal effort resides in my post history~
If they have 10 or so pugs following them around getting 1 pushed on engage because they're not comped causing a ton of rallies in what would be an otherwise close fight, then yes, many organized guild groups/hidden tags might get a tad irritated in their discord chats. Dirty laundry doesn't usually get aired in map chat though. Most guilds I know and/or rally with will take it on the chin with a grumble, port back and try it again.
As for the thread, folks have the right to play with who they want, if that's how they want to play. There's plenty to do around the maps as roamers in terms of both fights and ppt, and as someone else on FA I can attest to there being plenty of open-squad guild or pugmander tags around the maps during NA and the OCX guilds tend to run either public or at least visible. Heck, several of our tags tag up, put a callout in discord and some even stream. FA is not an exclusive environment.
.
~ Kovu
edit- And ever since we got linked with Kaineng, Zog won't shut the heck up about SMC constantly being under attack, as if its the only objective in the game. You only so much as have to port into EBG and you'll get an instant TORK-squad invite. They need to link Kaineng with Maguuma.
Ranger, Necromancer, Fort Aspenwood.
everyone knows the pain of a server not having any commanders, or only tags during primetime, but no one owes you anything.
te lazla otstara.
fingers crossed meta ~
Guilds follow a tag around AND they can see each others locations across all 4 maps.. what scrubs with their crutches.
Us pugs get nothing, have no visible way of seeing where each other are on any map. Like i want to be typing locations every minute to keep making sure everyone logging in from moment to moment is aware where the frontline is. Remove tags and give everyone guild EZ mode.
Sorry mayne, I'm going to run tagless/private and here's why:
• my group is here to have fun, not be your entertainment
• i, as a commander, am a very rude person with flavorful language
• everyone has a tag, so it shouldn't be my job to lead that map alone
• not everyone can put up with endless criticism and constant demands to tag up
• neither my guild nor myself owe anyone a kitten thing
• want to raid? Join the guild.
I'm not the only one who feels this way, so i will say this: stop being entitled and learn to do it yourself. There's plenty of resources and groups available, self included, who are excited to work with new players who want to give WvW their all.
Close thread pls
This is the true answer. The real issue is pug tags are pretty much extinct on NA servers. To the OP, I would say think about why that is. It's a thankless job in which most will probably be farmed by guild groups and blamed for the loss by pugs who don't know any better, refuse to adjust their builds or class, refuse to join comms, etc. Pugmanding seems like a good way to lose your mind in a short amount of time.
This guy gets it. Nobody wants to tag or join his guild. But sadly guild mechanics are a big part of WvW. ALOT of it. Low cost guild siege, tactivators, friendly dots visible on all maps, aura buffs.. I mean yeah WvW is designed for guilds to lead and not to be.. that way.. but whatever. Not all guilds are capable of surviving and often wipe along with the pugs.
Maybe it shouldn't be so centered around guilds that play maybe once a week but that's just how it is.
You got the solution all wrong though.
Clearly whats needed there is that every single player runs with a tag up, all the time.
gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
A disorderly group of Asura.
"The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"
I have experienced this problem many times, closed or hidden tags, antisocial behavior from players and or commanders in groups or zergs.
I agree with you generally as a 4-5 week newcomer to wvw and wanting to learn from more experienced people and get that experience from a group that has it, problem is 99% of the time they are too elitist and reluctant to impart their treasured knowledge and experience. I'm not sure why on earth this is and if they are in fact pre-judging other players or 'pugs' before they even know who or what they are about or their skill level and abilities. A worrying trend I also see is it is very hard to find a helpful and balanced guild these days that is ready and willing to 'lower themselves' to be social and helpful or wow to maybe train you a bit. On the other hand though, a good +ve experience I had recently was when I was on a server I transferred from, an open tag commander came on one time and asked for people to join for about 10 -15 mins till there was a group of about 20+ ppl, asked those that have to join discord. The commander gave a quick 5 min tutorial about staying on the tag and how to move etc, and relayed this through the chat for the ones that don't have discord to listen to. Within 20 mins or so we had a pretty good 'tight' squad made of random people which grew to about 45 in then end, of course we all went on to do very well, almost cleaning the whole map, learning a lot from each other and most importantly having a lot of fun together without exclusion or prejudice. The finer points of more skilled wvw play can be learned at a later stage as players learn more and more as they go, but they have to start somewhere. Starting a random squad IMHO hardly ever works like a proper tag does, 300 gold is beyond most ppl too. Besides, some players might also like to be part of a bigger group because they don't want to lead because of the fear of failure or embarrassment or their skill level is not so high, god forbid you might also be a very skilled player and want to join a group to help others in the group by example. The 'culture' at the moment is like 'oh look at that stupid idiot they don't even know this that or the other' I think It's high time all you people that take yourselves way too seriously and think you are better than all the vast majority of others to step down off your high Warclaw and pedestals and remember you once knew little or nothing at all about this game too.
Uh thread is about tagless commanding...
Anet buff me :-(
Make me good at game!
Thread is about servers needing a tag or else they won't play. So it would help. But there needs to be some better way to find the battlefront.
Whatever removes the need for guilds and their WvW mechanics. Since those mechanics are relied on by the whole team, and they clearly don't want to be team players.
Ok, then tag up yourself and fix the problem.
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62658/alliance-design-that-stops-the-qq
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62555/putting-fun-back-into-designs-and-balancing
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9804/idea-wvw-only-movement-skills
Thanks for that absolutely incredible insight, it's mind blowing.
As a commander there are multiple reasons to go tagless:
first : if you want to simply do a guild raid, you will go hidden tag there because you usually want to improve your group and fight with friends in a competitive manner against equally competitive people
second: You want higher quality, now hold on, I know this might seem mean and condescending but I've had it happen that going from open tag accepting both discord and non discord people to a discord only hidden tag loosing around 10 people. That move helped us win the fight because next time we faced the enemy, we did not have people going off tag (doesn't have to be by much to be picked off) and dying rallying the enemies we just killed putting us at an instant disadvantage.
We were also finally able to stealth without having one or two loosing stealth after two seconds or not have stealth at all ruining the whole point of it.
Thirdly: this is personal and it might not be every commander but I find it exhausting to always have to think about the people following around the squad because their contribution to the fights can vary greatly due to numbers or simply having a tougher time due to not having boons in some fights more than others, that means it's one more thing for the commander to worry about.
If you think commanders are just being petty, that may be true in certain cases but anyway, who do you think you are to tell commanders what to do? Commanding is not easy, you have to worry about playing correctly, as well as leading the movement for your squad, worry about cooldowns and when and where to call different abilities at the same time. If commanders find it more fun/ less stressful or anything else to lead tagless then it's their right to do so, if it's an open tag then join discord to get an invite, if it's a guild raid then join the guild to follow them or ask to guest if they are willing to accept you.
Now I know it sucks for new comers which is why I mostly leave my tag visible but that is not for every commander and not in every situation if you're not happy with it,.... deal with it and tag up I guess.
I also know that not all of the people not following on discord are bad far from it I've done my fair share of following without being on discord for several reasons however in general, quality will go down a bit which can sometimes hurt a lot and bother commanders.
Thank you for reading my rant, please be do not be toxic to your commanders if you want more open tags ^^
I don't have issue with Private Tags but I agree when there are no Public Tags at all then yes the maps start to feel dead to those not in the squad unless you know where the action is.
Which is most definetly their own fault most of the time though. I dont know how it is on your server but on mine people have zero map awareness, atrocious response times to scout calls and stay on walls in a 10vs5 scenario even when they see 1-3 people attempt an attack.
gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
A disorderly group of Asura.
"The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"
This is litteraly the same kitten logic as to complain about lfg requirement
Be valuable.
I often run with open tags, closed tags, hidden tags, without being in their guild, or even actually be in their squad.
I offer what I can, and that is (as a thief) usually scouting bringing actual valuable information, or tap a keep at the right moment...
Be considerate: When you run close to a group you know or suspect is a hidden tag, don't run IN THE MIDDLE with them.
See them stealthed up? Use a DIFFERENT path to throw the opponent off... (haha that pug is revealing where they are... ow wait... NOOOOOO!!!)
That will earn you respect and they are more likely to consider you for running with them.
You do not always have to meet every requirement, you do not always have to "leech" of a group.
Just use common sense and some logic.
As mostly a roamer and mostly on non-zerg builds, I have no problems with most groups on my server.
Because I consider their motives... I consider their tactics, and earned their respect that way.
Laying the blame on one side is too easy.
@OP I don't think it's that at all. Usually people do this because there's buttholes that put alt accounts on other servers to spy and that causes squads to be less effective. My current WvW guild I was able to join because I saw them running around and i asked to be invited and they invited me. And I run with them once a week when I have time. Sometimes more often. At least here on NA HoD, we've got a pretty good culture.
I thought the same thing you did, but I get it after I've gotten more used to WvW culture. Usually servers tend to be cohesive, especially in WvW where cooperation can only help you. You're welcome to spend 300g and run your own public tag. We have 2 celebrities that do that often in HoD.
Also I've tried running my tag a couple times when i was new, often people didn't join me because they didn't know me. Also, I'm not that experienced. Commander experience matters. I'd say an inexperienced one is better than none, but just expect people to drop if you're not successful. I only care about pipz, so I'm easy to please in that regard.
Yes, people know you're not the only one who feels that way, which is why most people now don't bother with squads or entitled high maintenance tags.
Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]
To be fair, I've yet to see a pug try and play for the sake of the zerg.
They could have ran like, literally any build which is self sufficient, good durability, and knows how to follow the commander etc.
But do yu know what I see the most?
Full Zerker Scourges who often times just end up as Rallybots, because they want loot.
And the worst offenders are those who are obviously not part of a Squad, but when whole Squad prepares to stealth bomb, they who are not part of the Squad follows the Stealthed group essentially acting as a marker and giving away the bomb.
So yes, I do think pugs aren't great if they can't even comprehend why, how and when they should act in organised ZvZ.
I often pug myself, but I don't stick to the zerg.
I tap keeps, I join the fight after the main force pushes, and I pick off their tail or flip camps.
If I wanna zerg, I join a call with an actual role like Scrapper or Shoutbreaker, and they usually accept me even as a guildless pug.
If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.
You mean any non-soulbeast ranger?
Rangers actually kind of durable tho.
Zerker Scourges literally implode on contact, and don't run mobility skills.
If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.
You can cover mistakes of scourges with scrapper superspeed and stability plus you can convert those scourges easily into the meta WVW scourge by experience. You can't cover someone trying to run a PVE spirit druid , pistol deadeye, or "maximum tagging" greatsword mirage build. The difference is one is actually trying to run remotely a WVW build.
Some people reading the forums with no WXP could think this is an April Fools joke, but it actually happens.
True, but I can't cover Mr IWantLoot42069 over there if they don't listen to commander and is still killing Boiling Pot number 3 while an enemy zerg is going for the surround.
Point here is this :
If yu wanna follow a tag, listen to them.
Every mistake yu make costs something, at the very least, costs a squad slot to someone who actually listens and follows orders.
Rack up enough mistakes and yu will be quick to be blacklisted.
I've seen plenty of players who are perma-banned from tags because they pull dumb stunts like SHIFTING THE CATAPULT AIM 180 DEGREES FOR NO REASON and USING TRANSFUSION, PULLING THEIR DOWNED GROUP INTO FIRE BEFORE DYING THEMSELVES.
If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.
Though I have to say, as someone that rarely zerg, the zerker meta scourge is probably the most durable pug zerger damage build I can run while being "effective", in the sense I am pretty bad on a necro overall but I can still do heavy damage to an enemy zerg that push us by facerolling all the buttons.
gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
A disorderly group of Asura.
"The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"
Depends on the servers, it seems. (noted these things when links change) Some servers seem to have more pugs willing to get on discord and running semi-standard builds. Also back in the day when server communities were a thing, you would get people broadcasting nonstop on t1 servers to bring so and so build.
Of course, none of this applies to my home server where people run.... I'd be surprised if they even knew what their build was-- they're just incomprehensibly awful. (It's like glass without the cannon) I would like to say that it probably is just from Open World PvE, but that's probably too generous.
What irks me the most is that some pugs have the audacity to act like they are entitled a squad spot if they run a certain build. Like look, maybe the squad's full, so why are yu throwing a hissy fit about private tags?
And there are cases where many of these pugs don't even bother joining the discord to see what the Guild Tag needs (more heals, more support, more Boon etc) and they have the gall to exclaim in Team chat that "UGH TAGLESS COMMANDERS UGH, PUGS NEGLECTED UGH"
And even better : they don't even ask to join a discord or anything. They just log in, /t "Any tag running" then afk in keeps.
Jesus christ.
If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.
On my server commis constantly run open tags however people refuse to join discord and dont follow tag/markers in fights which results in them rallying the enemy over and over. I have experienced few commis that just got fed by it and only invite people who are on voice. I understand that not everyone wants to join voice but you are free to make own open tag if you want and don't expect other to make magic happen for you.
Meh~
Or that one guy who drops a random field on the stealth gyros...
Make Banner Warrior for Zergs great again!!!