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  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vegeta.2563 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Anet gives WvW the best rewards structure
    PVE players start playing WvW
    "REAL" WvW players complain they can't get in their servers because of 'loot camping' PVE players

    Be careful what you wish for. How soon people forget how WvW was overrun when Warclaw came out.

    And that is precisely the point. Well said.

    That week got over 15k kills. Bring more of that please.

    Havent been counting kills since long before o got UD title. Join a bandwagon "fight" server, farm pugs, rejoice in fake superiority, repeat.
    We should totally make wvw more ktrain eotm style, with more skirmish tickets (full wvw rewards) and bigger pve rewards. Yup.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vegeta.2563 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Anet gives WvW the best rewards structure
    PVE players start playing WvW
    "REAL" WvW players complain they can't get in their servers because of 'loot camping' PVE players

    Be careful what you wish for. How soon people forget how WvW was overrun when Warclaw came out.

    And that is precisely the point. Well said.

    That week got over 15k kills. Bring more of that please.

    Except YOU won't be getting those kills ... your new loot-loving PVE convert will.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Dayra.7405 said:
    The answer is obvious isn't it? There are a lot more of PvE only player than there are WvW-player that would complain loudly, if something they don't like would have a better reward structure than something they play, especially as PvE-player seem to be much more reward oriented than WvW-player.

    No one is asking for better rewards, just roughly the same level of rewards as PvE plus more fair access to WvW currency which doesn't affect PvE at all...

    Things arent that simple.
    It is no secret that GW2 is heavily pve oriented. Wvw is neglected. In multiple ways. Rewards are -scratch that- SHOULD be lowish in anet's priorities. Wvw is in dire need of population balance, class balance, the meta is so stale people quit. And every so often, a low rank player comes on forums, complains about rewards (cause apparently legendary armor has to be grinded for) / is late to the wvw party with many others having already made leggy armor and asks for better rewards.
    Dont get me wrong, here. I would like better rewards myself, too. Anet cater to the pve mentality (sublime chest req went from 2k rank to... 500, because apparently enough people complained). That hurts the mode more. New players will always choose the path of least resistance, in the way of outnumbered maps, semi afking (hell, veterans do it, too, sometimes), you name it. And by dumbing down a half-dead mode more, long-time players will have less incentive to play cause new players NEED their rewards and to hell with learning how to not die faster than an ambient creature.
    I almost forgot. You are branded as toxic nowadays if you point out flaws in peoples' builds and mentality, cause they apparently "play how they want and kitten yourself toxic comm". Cheers.

    Well to me the problem seems to lie in how the reward structure is laid out - it encourages afking.
    And i agree, it will be hard to balance.

    But honestly, the current system does nothing to discourage such behaviour or encourage learning the mode. For instance, the current system for skirmish tickets (example because those are required for legendaries), first gives you a small amount and gradually increases. Why? There's no real reason for that, no one will learn WvW because you can literally get diamond each week if you grind hard enough and flip 2 camps and their sentries over and over again. Now granted, most people won't do that, but some will hardcore afk for their prize. Others will just afk periodically then, creating the same problem. No one is learning anything by artificially limiting skirmish tickets in lower tier chests. Why not flatten them across all rewards like OP said? If nothing else, all the PvE people will get their rewards sooner and will get out of WvW for the rest of the people who actually enjoy it.
    Furthermore, there's no system that would reward you for learning the mode properly. What do you currently get for being good at WvW? Nothing. (EDIT: Before someone calls me out on this - i'm talking about skirmish tickets which are hard capped per week for everyone no matter how good or bad you are, just how much time you spent in WvW afk or not.)

    That's why i like Lan Deathrider's suggestion to introduce a use for Emblems and GoB besides a one time legendary craft material (Conflux) and PvE whine machine that GoB has become. Legendary spikes should probably recieve the same treatment. Emblems of Conquerer and Avenger should be possible to convert to skirmish tickets (and Lan's suggestion for 50 seems about right). Support roles would need to be given some tagging options though otherwise everyone would just play AOEDPS spamming classes. That way, there's incentive for more people who wish to craft legendaries to learn the mode and get them quicker. Would also balance the frankly embarrassing disparity between Raid armor acquisition time and WvW one. Raid armor requires collection, WvW would then require a lot of fighting players and capping things. Each mode with it's own mode-specific unique method of acquisition. PvE has collections, WvW shoud have fights.

    Honestly, that would solve pretty much everything you are talking about. By collecting emblems, people would actually need to WvW and not just AFK at spawn while occasionally flipping camps. And i do agree with you, whatever rewards system changes that happen shouldn't negatively impact an already shaky mode.

    As it is, there's no incentive for people who just want the armor to do anything WvW related. Even with the slow ticket gain at the lower tier chests. At least with Lan's suggestion, they'd be useful to the rest of the players while they grind their currency. And when they spend so much time in a mode, they will either like it and continue (which will address the population issues), or never come back (which will again free up slots). And while the PvErs are collecting their emblems, since the best way to collect them would be actively participating in fights, there would be more fights going around! Win win in my opinion.

    None of this will likely personally affect me as i'm almost done with my armor, just need 2 more pieces, and when i'm done with it i'll still play WvW almost daily lol so whatever. But in general, i think Lan's idea would be good for the mode.

    50 (!) Tickets per emblem is ridiculous. Personally, i am sitting on 600 emblems of the avenger, many hav much more than that. Imagine that, with 50 skirmish tickets each... That is absurd.
    Emblems should get a merch price, thats it. Same as legendary spikes have. Skirmish tickets are timegated and limited per week, and thats ok.
    Anet made the structure of the pace of getting tickets like this because they wanted to honor veterans, they wanted to make people who spent countless hours playing this mode feel they deserve SOME kind of rewards.
    Btw, Ian's suggestion seems great for pvers only. In my opinion, it is bad.

    Did you read the thread at all? 50 tickets would be a weekly timegate or daily idk, the point is, those are just "general numbers" suggested. Nobody wants all the veterans to convert all of their emblems and spikes and GoB to anything immediately, that would flood the market too much.
    So you think that ecnouraging people to engage in the mode actively is bad? You perfer the afk system? You're contradicting yourself now, you said people don't want to learn the mode. Well, this would be incentive. How is that bad?

    What it all boils down to is that WvW needs attention from the devs. Whatever they do, they'd have to make big changes to multiple things for any 1 thing to work. And we all know how well loved WvW is by the devs so i'm not holding my breath. :tongue:

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Dayra.7405 said:
    The answer is obvious isn't it? There are a lot more of PvE only player than there are WvW-player that would complain loudly, if something they don't like would have a better reward structure than something they play, especially as PvE-player seem to be much more reward oriented than WvW-player.

    No one is asking for better rewards, just roughly the same level of rewards as PvE plus more fair access to WvW currency which doesn't affect PvE at all...

    Things arent that simple.
    It is no secret that GW2 is heavily pve oriented. Wvw is neglected. In multiple ways. Rewards are -scratch that- SHOULD be lowish in anet's priorities. Wvw is in dire need of population balance, class balance, the meta is so stale people quit. And every so often, a low rank player comes on forums, complains about rewards (cause apparently legendary armor has to be grinded for) / is late to the wvw party with many others having already made leggy armor and asks for better rewards.
    Dont get me wrong, here. I would like better rewards myself, too. Anet cater to the pve mentality (sublime chest req went from 2k rank to... 500, because apparently enough people complained). That hurts the mode more. New players will always choose the path of least resistance, in the way of outnumbered maps, semi afking (hell, veterans do it, too, sometimes), you name it. And by dumbing down a half-dead mode more, long-time players will have less incentive to play cause new players NEED their rewards and to hell with learning how to not die faster than an ambient creature.
    I almost forgot. You are branded as toxic nowadays if you point out flaws in peoples' builds and mentality, cause they apparently "play how they want and kitten yourself toxic comm". Cheers.

    Well to me the problem seems to lie in how the reward structure is laid out - it encourages afking.
    And i agree, it will be hard to balance.

    But honestly, the current system does nothing to discourage such behaviour or encourage learning the mode. For instance, the current system for skirmish tickets (example because those are required for legendaries), first gives you a small amount and gradually increases. Why? There's no real reason for that, no one will learn WvW because you can literally get diamond each week if you grind hard enough and flip 2 camps and their sentries over and over again. Now granted, most people won't do that, but some will hardcore afk for their prize. Others will just afk periodically then, creating the same problem. No one is learning anything by artificially limiting skirmish tickets in lower tier chests. Why not flatten them across all rewards like OP said? If nothing else, all the PvE people will get their rewards sooner and will get out of WvW for the rest of the people who actually enjoy it.
    Furthermore, there's no system that would reward you for learning the mode properly. What do you currently get for being good at WvW? Nothing. (EDIT: Before someone calls me out on this - i'm talking about skirmish tickets which are hard capped per week for everyone no matter how good or bad you are, just how much time you spent in WvW afk or not.)

    That's why i like Lan Deathrider's suggestion to introduce a use for Emblems and GoB besides a one time legendary craft material (Conflux) and PvE whine machine that GoB has become. Legendary spikes should probably recieve the same treatment. Emblems of Conquerer and Avenger should be possible to convert to skirmish tickets (and Lan's suggestion for 50 seems about right). Support roles would need to be given some tagging options though otherwise everyone would just play AOEDPS spamming classes. That way, there's incentive for more people who wish to craft legendaries to learn the mode and get them quicker. Would also balance the frankly embarrassing disparity between Raid armor acquisition time and WvW one. Raid armor requires collection, WvW would then require a lot of fighting players and capping things. Each mode with it's own mode-specific unique method of acquisition. PvE has collections, WvW shoud have fights.

    Honestly, that would solve pretty much everything you are talking about. By collecting emblems, people would actually need to WvW and not just AFK at spawn while occasionally flipping camps. And i do agree with you, whatever rewards system changes that happen shouldn't negatively impact an already shaky mode.

    As it is, there's no incentive for people who just want the armor to do anything WvW related. Even with the slow ticket gain at the lower tier chests. At least with Lan's suggestion, they'd be useful to the rest of the players while they grind their currency. And when they spend so much time in a mode, they will either like it and continue (which will address the population issues), or never come back (which will again free up slots). And while the PvErs are collecting their emblems, since the best way to collect them would be actively participating in fights, there would be more fights going around! Win win in my opinion.

    None of this will likely personally affect me as i'm almost done with my armor, just need 2 more pieces, and when i'm done with it i'll still play WvW almost daily lol so whatever. But in general, i think Lan's idea would be good for the mode.

    50 (!) Tickets per emblem is ridiculous. Personally, i am sitting on 600 emblems of the avenger, many hav much more than that. Imagine that, with 50 skirmish tickets each... That is absurd.
    Emblems should get a merch price, thats it. Same as legendary spikes have. Skirmish tickets are timegated and limited per week, and thats ok.
    Anet made the structure of the pace of getting tickets like this because they wanted to honor veterans, they wanted to make people who spent countless hours playing this mode feel they deserve SOME kind of rewards.
    Btw, Ian's suggestion seems great for pvers only. In my opinion, it is bad.

    Go read the thread. Its gated by daily, weekly, and monthly trades. The 50 tickets is on a weekly basis, and is one option amongst 4.

    To summarize the daily trader would offer some amount of Mystic Coins, Mystic Covers, Skirmish Tickets, or Memories of Battle for 1 GoB for the daily trader, 1 Emblem for the weekly trader per emblem, and the monthly trader was a 10 GoB or 5 Emblems, but limited to only 4 trades. You would in no way be able to quickly drop your 600 emblems on large amounts of tickets, MoB, Clovers, or Coins.

    The intent was to offer up an extra source of MoB, and Skirmish Tickets for newbies who feel like they get too few, as well as to offer up something more tangibly rewarding like Mystic Coins and Clovers for those that feel WvW is chronically un rewarding , but not in any sort of way that would be a windfall for anyone.

    It would entice people a bit more to invest more time in the game mode for things other than the occasional GOB for legendary crafting. Mystic Coins are valuable, and people want them or want to sell them. Tying their access to things like Emblems requires active gameplay in the mode to attain, which the elephant in the room as far as WvW and rewards is concerned.

  • Swamurabi.7890Swamurabi.7890 Member ✭✭✭

    Even though killing players can be the most difficult part of GW2, there are several reasons why WvW will never get better rewards than PvE
    1. Players, once they found out that you can get credits for kills in OS, staged a kill-a-thon in order to get Ultimate Dominator title.
    2. Players, once they found out that EotM gave better rewards than WvW, flooded into EotM. I personally used EotM to level up several toons.
    3. Guilds, once they found out about the rewards in EotM, organized PvE style K-trains in a PvP zone. I loved being a fearomancer during this time.
    4. Tournaments brought in so many PvE players for lame rewards that it took days before regular guilds could actually raid together like they did pre-tournament
    5. Warclaw... See Tournaments
    6. Anet doesn't support WvW and hasn't for years.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Vegeta.2563 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Anet gives WvW the best rewards structure
    PVE players start playing WvW
    "REAL" WvW players complain they can't get in their servers because of 'loot camping' PVE players

    Be careful what you wish for. How soon people forget how WvW was overrun when Warclaw came out.

    And that is precisely the point. Well said.

    That week got over 15k kills. Bring more of that please.

    Except YOU won't be getting those kills ... your new loot-loving PVE convert will.

    No... They would be relatively easy pickings. The problem comes with:

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @Sylvyn.4750 said:

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @Sylvyn.4750 said:

    @LetoII.3782 said:
    The last thing WvW needs right now is to become the new champ train for reward seekers

    They could decrease the grind by 50% and it would still be too much for those wanting champ train style rewards. I know, I know, you'd like to be able to tell your grandkids that you had to walk from your home BL keep to Stonemist in EBG in knee-deep snow without a Warclaw or Swiftness, and it was an uphill battle both ways...

    And we didn't have shoes because pa needed somewhere to keep the hogs from freezing.

    Butsrs.

    There's this thing that was a thing in previous RvR games called keep trading. It's kinda like a karma train, where sides just flip each others stuff in rotation... Used to be how EoTM ran too.. And it murders actual competition (like how EoTM is now) when the rewards are reduced and the champ train moves on to the next shiny.
    So, when we talk about increasing passive rewards, we also have to factor in the possible maximum rewards for EoTM style keep trading.. If that number ever reaches anything near what's achievable in PvE, the keep trading starts. And like locusts, they leave a barren husk of an EoTM in their wake.

    Good point...we haven't seen it get to that point in WvW yet, but it's a possibility.

    We did, in eotm.
    There was a point where doing actual pvp in eotm was referred to as griefing or harrassment. It's a lesson history will happily repeat at the merest rumor of WvW having a good GPH return.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Vegeta.2563 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Anet gives WvW the best rewards structure
    PVE players start playing WvW
    "REAL" WvW players complain they can't get in their servers because of 'loot camping' PVE players

    Be careful what you wish for. How soon people forget how WvW was overrun when Warclaw came out.

    And that is precisely the point. Well said.

    That week got over 15k kills. Bring more of that please.

    Except YOU won't be getting those kills ... your new loot-loving PVE convert will.

    No... They would be relatively easy pickings.

    Maybe ... if you can get in your server. My point here isn't that PVE players aren't easy kills. my point is that they won't be easy kills for people that can't get in.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Vegeta.2563 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Anet gives WvW the best rewards structure
    PVE players start playing WvW
    "REAL" WvW players complain they can't get in their servers because of 'loot camping' PVE players

    Be careful what you wish for. How soon people forget how WvW was overrun when Warclaw came out.

    And that is precisely the point. Well said.

    That week got over 15k kills. Bring more of that please.

    Except YOU won't be getting those kills ... your new loot-loving PVE convert will.

    No... They would be relatively easy pickings.

    Maybe ... if you can get in your server. My point here isn't that PVE players aren't easy kills. my point is that they won't be easy kills for people that can't get in.

    Fair point.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Forgotten Legend.9281Forgotten Legend.9281 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    as a rank 2100 WvW'er, my two suggestions towards increasing rewards:

    Skirmish Mark acquisition is far faster than Grandmaster Marks or Memories of Battle.
    1- Memories of Battle should be earned at a higher rate than Skirmish Marks, because they are used in many more ways. even though they are TP-tradeable.
    2- Grandmaster Mark Shards should be available 1 from each final chest period. (the whole 3 shards maximum per week is ridiculous, considering there 7 chests, 8 if you count the repeatable chest)

    additional info about
    1: you need to unlock tier 3 ascended armour before you can purchase it anyway, by first obtaining the tier 1 exotic armour from the chest at the end of the Triumphant Armour Reward Track, then by unlocking tier 2 exotic / ascended armour using Skirmish Marks and memories of battle (plus Grandmaster Marks for the tier 2 ascended armour). i guess the following is technically a comment on GMs, not MoB: Without crafting, to make a full set of ascended armour, this takes well over a year... much higher dedication versus fractals or raiding or strikes, which DON'T require Grandmaster Marks.
    2: you can earn over 350 skirmish marks a week. you need 3-4 grandmaster marks, it takes 4 weeks to earn ONE mark, no matter how many times you repeat Diamond chest. earning 7 or 8 marls a week would enable the acquistion of 1 weapon or armour piece every 4 weeks, instead of once every 3 months.

    "Bacon Defeciency DIsorder Sux"
    ~ The Baconnaire

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swamurabi.7890 said:
    Even though killing players can be the most difficult part of GW2, there are several reasons why WvW will never get better rewards than PvE

    Just different paths to skirmish tickets and the occasional clover/mc like fractals has isn't better rewards. No one is actually asking for better rewards than PvE, no one who plays WvW even cares about that honestly. Just a slight rebalance to the existing system to make the WvW timegate less grindy with weekly skirmish ticket "boost options".
    I don't know why everyone is so focused on arguing about "better rewards", none of those threads ask for better rewards than PvE has.

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Vegeta.2563 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Anet gives WvW the best rewards structure
    PVE players start playing WvW
    "REAL" WvW players complain they can't get in their servers because of 'loot camping' PVE players

    Be careful what you wish for. How soon people forget how WvW was overrun when Warclaw came out.

    And that is precisely the point. Well said.

    That week got over 15k kills. Bring more of that please.

    Except YOU won't be getting those kills ... your new loot-loving PVE convert will.

    No... They would be relatively easy pickings.

    Maybe ... if you can get in your server. My point here isn't that PVE players aren't easy kills. my point is that they won't be easy kills for people that can't get in.

    True, but still, most people, even if WvW has better rewards, just won't play WvW if they don't like it. Also, no one wants better rewards than PvE, just a bit of balance with PvE stuff. It can still be (and will be) harder/longer to get, but not enough to be the best reward system. The one we have is fine for the most part, it just needs to be a bit less punishing to new players and more rewarding for veterans. I doubt any of that would create an influx of PvE players into WvW. Maybe at first for the ones curious what the fuss is about, but that would soon die out because PvE players don't want to play WvW. Just look at all the "i need alternatives to GoB" threads that pop up weekly. The easiest thing to obtain in WvW and people still complain. Do you really think a swarm of PvE players will suddenly decide that WvW is for them because it has marginally better reward structure than it previously had (and NOT even better than PvE offers still)? Especially if they keep getting killed by WvW veterans. Some will flock to see the novelty, yes, but the ones who didn't like WvW to begin with won't stay, and those who stay will become WvW players so you can't call those PvErs that hog the queues if they actually play WvW (which the active reward system encourages).
    PvE players just don't want to play WvW period, no matter what goes on there.

    (this part no longer quotes the person above)
    Besides, like i said, they can't just slap one reward system (like Len's) in and call it a day, they'd have to actually pay the mode some attention and thought to balance all the possible contingencies that go with it. And that requires Anet to care about WvW. Like, if players really flock in so much, how about a temporary 5th map per week as needed to reduce queues (and that map would contribute as normal but since there's more objectives now, each objective would give you proprotionally less to balace things out)? If there's kill-a-thons, employ a mod that monitors WvW and kicks those people out. One thing i can see happening is everyone would run DPS to get more kill tags, in which case, support skills would have to be able to tag as well in some fashion.

    Point is, this all doesn't just require a new vendor slapped on to the existing ones that trades in GoB and emblems, it requires a full rebalance of WvW and active monitoring of the mode. So i doubt it'll happen.

    But if it doesn't... WvW will slowly die due to just lack of attention from the devs, and it won't happen soon or at once, but people will get bored and fed up by not being appreciated enough by the company. Alliances when meme right? So while an infulx of players would certainly create some issues, i don't know why people can on one hand want changes to WvW and call it a dead mode, while on the other hand just flat out dismiss any potential change ideas that might revive it... Seems disingenuous.

    @Forgotten Legend.9281 said:
    as a rank 2100 WvW'er, my two suggestions towards increasing rewards:

    Skirmish Mark acquisition is far faster than Grandmaster Marks or Memories of Battle.
    1- Memories of Battle should be earned at a higher rate than Skirmish Marks, because they are used in many more ways. even though they are TP-tradeable.
    2- Grandmaster Mark Shards should be available 1 from each final chest period. (the whole 3 shards maximum per week is ridiculous, considering there 7 chests, 8 if you count the repeatable chest)

    additional info about
    1: you need to unlock tier 3 ascended armour before you can purchase it anyway, by first obtaining the tier 1 exotic armour from the chest at the end of the Triumphant Armour Reward Track, then by unlocking tier 2 exotic / ascended armour using Skirmish Marks and memories of battle (plus Grandmaster Marks for the tier 2 ascended armour). i guess the following is technically a comment on GMs, not MoB: Without crafting, to make a full set of ascended armour, this takes well over a year... much higher dedication versus fractals or raiding or strikes, which DON'T require Grandmaster Marks.
    2: you can earn over 350 skirmish marks a week. you need 3-4 grandmaster marks, it takes 4 weeks to earn ONE mark, no matter how many times you repeat Diamond chest. earning 7 or 8 marls a week would enable the acquistion of 1 weapon or armour piece every 4 weeks, instead of once every 3 months.

    Yeah i always wondered why there's so little Memories of battle. Kinda makes that Memory gobbler useless since for 5 uses of it you get trash you'll sell for silvers, while directly selling Memories will net you some gold lol. Also, yes, marks need to increase, why they're so low is beyond me. There's probably another "ooh but PvE players" argument in there but i reject it. :smile: PvE players won't play WvW to diamond for marks, and they can already play to gold where the last one is, so what's the difference if they even make it to diamond? It just hurts WvW players for no reason as none probably have enough materials to level crafting let alone craft some marks just from playing WvW.

    Also, this is what i'm talking about. Compared to raiding and open world, there's just too much disparity in the time to acquire some thing.
    Fractals require Grandmaster Marks though, but yes, Raids don't.

    It's just weird.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Swamurabi.7890 said:
    Even though killing players can be the most difficult part of GW2, there are several reasons why WvW will never get better rewards than PvE

    Just different paths to skirmish tickets and the occasional clover/mc like fractals has isn't better rewards. No one is actually asking for better rewards than PvE, no one who plays WvW even cares about that honestly. Just a slight rebalance to the existing system to make the WvW timegate less grindy with weekly skirmish ticket "boost options".
    I don't know why everyone is so focused on arguing about "better rewards", none of those threads ask for better rewards than PvE has.

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Vegeta.2563 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Anet gives WvW the best rewards structure
    PVE players start playing WvW
    "REAL" WvW players complain they can't get in their servers because of 'loot camping' PVE players

    Be careful what you wish for. How soon people forget how WvW was overrun when Warclaw came out.

    And that is precisely the point. Well said.

    That week got over 15k kills. Bring more of that please.

    Except YOU won't be getting those kills ... your new loot-loving PVE convert will.

    No... They would be relatively easy pickings.

    Maybe ... if you can get in your server. My point here isn't that PVE players aren't easy kills. my point is that they won't be easy kills for people that can't get in.

    True, but still, most people, even if WvW has better rewards, just won't play WvW if they don't like it.

    True ... but I'm willing to be that enough people do that affects hardcore WvW ability to consistently get in their servers. Anyways, we don't have much to worry about anyways. I have no doubt rewards in WvW will ever be that good.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Swamurabi.7890 said:
    Even though killing players can be the most difficult part of GW2, there are several reasons why WvW will never get better rewards than PvE

    Just different paths to skirmish tickets and the occasional clover/mc like fractals has isn't better rewards. No one is actually asking for better rewards than PvE, no one who plays WvW even cares about that honestly. Just a slight rebalance to the existing system to make the WvW timegate less grindy with weekly skirmish ticket "boost options".
    I don't know why everyone is so focused on arguing about "better rewards", none of those threads ask for better rewards than PvE has.

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Vegeta.2563 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Anet gives WvW the best rewards structure
    PVE players start playing WvW
    "REAL" WvW players complain they can't get in their servers because of 'loot camping' PVE players

    Be careful what you wish for. How soon people forget how WvW was overrun when Warclaw came out.

    And that is precisely the point. Well said.

    That week got over 15k kills. Bring more of that please.

    Except YOU won't be getting those kills ... your new loot-loving PVE convert will.

    No... They would be relatively easy pickings.

    Maybe ... if you can get in your server. My point here isn't that PVE players aren't easy kills. my point is that they won't be easy kills for people that can't get in.

    True, but still, most people, even if WvW has better rewards, just won't play WvW if they don't like it.

    True ... but I'm willing to be that enough people do that affects hardcore WvW ability to consistently get in their servers. Anyways, we don't have much to worry about anyways. I have no doubt rewards in WvW will never be that good.

    Yeah, same, i doubt WvW rewards will ever be better than PvE. And personally i'm fine with how it is for the most part, they just need to tweak some things to respect people's time a bit better (such as flattening ticket gains across all chests up to the current weekly maximum), more shards and memoreis, and as far as i'm concerned - WvW balnced lol.

    Well, not balanced, but not insultngly grindy anymore lol.

    And i even doubt that will happen anytime soon so...

  • Sylvyn.4750Sylvyn.4750 Member ✭✭✭

    @Forgotten Legend.9281 said:
    Skirmish Mark acquisition is far faster than Grandmaster Marks or Memories of Battle.

    Yeah, one of my biggest peeves right now...it takes less than a week to earn enough skirmish tickets to buy an ascended accessory (175), but it takes more than one weekly cycle to get enough corresponding MoBs (250) to go with the ticket price for the accessory. On top of that, a year ago the price of MoBs on the TP more than doubled practically overnight, and here we are a year later with the price still being about double, so that didn't help the situation. Buying 250 MoBs at 10s each is 25 gold...better off farming the LS currencies for all your trinkets at that rate.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    Did you know before the legendary armor sets and other Memories of Battle sinks that Memory of Battle was close to worthless (below 1 silver)?

    In 2016 they were from WvW rankup chests , not just reward tracks and skirmish tracks (which started in 2017). On April 19, 2016 that changed and it was patched out of the Chest of the Mists you obtain from increasing your WvW rank.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2021

    @Sylvyn.4750 said:

    @Forgotten Legend.9281 said:
    Skirmish Mark acquisition is far faster than Grandmaster Marks or Memories of Battle.

    Yeah, one of my biggest peeves right now...it takes less than a week to earn enough skirmish tickets to buy an ascended accessory (175), but it takes more than one weekly cycle to get enough corresponding MoBs (250) to go with the ticket price for the accessory. On top of that, a year ago the price of MoBs on the TP more than doubled practically overnight, and here we are a year later with the price still being about double, so that didn't help the situation. Buying 250 MoBs at 10s each is 25 gold...better off farming the LS currencies for all your trinkets at that rate.

    Yup! Especially since everything requires a stack of MoB or more.
    The weirdest item is the Ascended Salvage Kit. It's entirely dependant on market prices unlike other sources of the same item. In Fractals, it costs 20g, while in WvW you need to pay 5g more for the same item. Kinda seems unfair.

    If MoB would be cheaper, the same salvage kit would be cheaper than fractals, which is also unfair. Why didn't they just put 20g +X skirmish tickets price on it is so weird to me.

    Also, of course, since everything requires 250-500 MoB that means, everything is way more expensive to get in WvW (which has less gold generation) than in other sources.

    Assuming you pay for everyting:

    Triumphant Hero's Masque:

    2g + 3marks (~40g) + 175 timegates (0g) + 250 MoB (~25g) = ~67g (also requires a reward track completion and an exotic purchase to unlock)

    Illustrious Masque:

    2g + 3marks (~40g) + 12timegates (0g) + 400 timegates (0g) = ~42g (requires nothing except the currencies written here)

    The time to get is also pretty weird. You can grind Fractal relics as much as you want per day, and assuming you're at T3 where you'd actually need ascended armor (you can get by before with trinkets+weapons) you can get 400 in a day or two, plus research pages from dailies in max 3ish days or something? Meanwhile, you'll get more than 40 gold for your effort from T3 to craft marks with.

    How much time do you need to grind 250 MoB? You said more than one week so let's go with 2 weeks to round up.
    In 2 weeks of playing you don't get enough marks or gold to cover crafting costs for even 1 mark.

    Add to that the fact that WvW armor is subject to change and you need more than 1 set most of the time...

    Basically - Fractal armor - Free (because of how much gold you earn) + 5 days timegates; WvW armor - either 40g + 2weeks timegates, or 3 months timegates - your choice.

    Yeah....

    And i won't even touch how much raid ascendeds cost.

    Now, if anyone has the bright idea to tell me "well go play those modes", i do play those too, the point is to illustrate how weirdly grind WvW stuff is compared to others.

  • Crazy.6029Crazy.6029 Member ✭✭✭

    Anet doesn't promote WvW in any way at all. For reasons.

    Let's nerf everything, so that we don't need any skill to play.
    The Truth sometimes hurts but it is good for you.

  • Gotejjeken.1267Gotejjeken.1267 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't see how WvW is more grindy than PvE.

    I'm around rank 800 and got most of my WvW rewards when I was rank 500 or less; essentially I had enough skirmish tickets and stacks (8-10 of them) of memories of battle lying around before I actually started playing WvW for ranks (i.e. joined a guild). Grandmaster mark shards are an annoyance, but nothing in the game is tailored to sitting in one game mode, so I just crafted most of the marks. I now have a full set of legendary armor and the most annoying part was not WvW related, it was the promotion of t6 mats to get enough for each gift.

    Contrast this with PvE, trying to get Aurora. Before you even get the collection to do it you have to go on a series of item hunts which take HOURS. Some of these items are in a very challenging jumping puzzle, which one could argue is pretty far from 'normal' gameplay. After you get done with that you have to do it all over again for each item in the Aurora collection, and some of it is boring achievement grinding--which I'm using WvW reward tracks to get around. Not to mention you have to grind out mastery points or be in BIG trouble as things like infinite gliding are required for certain areas (and cost millions of xp + mastery points to get).

    For basically a quarter of the effort I can get a set of legendary armor, Conflux and Warbringer in the time it takes to get ONE legendary trinket from PvE.

    So yes the rewards may seem lackluster, but at least you don't have to jump through a million minor hoops to get them. You just go into WvW play the mode and get rewards.

  • I have collected all 3 Legendary armor classes: Heavy, Medium, and Light. 3 parts of pvp and 3 of wvw.
    I have always played alone, the secret is perseverance.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I will mention @Veprovina.4876 and @Lan Deathrider.5910 , as you two seem to agree on more rewards.
    1. Pve has no weekly extra LI or LD acquisition. I havent checked pvp, but i believe no weekly extra ascended shards vendor exists there. So a weekly / daily / monthly extra skirmish ticket vendor seems out of place, since it is LEGENDARIES we talk about. Not ascended boxes.
    2. 95% of the game caters to the pve community. Why should wvw change rewards to better suit that particular community? Isnt the game about fun? Check sublime chest skin, it was devalued to... 500 ranks, cause apparently wvw having a prestige skin was too much for some, who complained loudly enough. Imagine that happening to prestigious pve raid skins
    3. You havent been playing wvw when skirmish tickets were added to wvw, to see the endless queues of 70+ each day when you couldnt play the mode you enjoyed, because people were trying to get their new shinies. Nuh-uh. 3+ hours of waiting, by which time comms we were in the same guild with ragequit due to lack of any reasonable coordination. Luckily, that queueing only lasted for a couple of weeks, when pvers realised they have to grind many hours of wvw gametime. Imagine pve raid instances being limited, and veteran (or any static group) raiders would have to wait for 3+ hours to play, ohhhh the rage that would ensue
    4. Wvw is in DIRE need of other, more meaningful changes. Changes that cater to its own population rather than the pver mentality of "i wanna git ma shinies fast!!! WHY U GIVE ME THAT FEW PIPS, ANET". Make all classes viable for zerging, solve population imbalance, to mention only a few. You either like wvw, or you dont. Simple as that. No amount of easy rewards will make people like it, on the contrary, it will only make them ask for MORE conveniences.

    1. People will ALWAYS complain and ALWAYS look for the path of least resistance. Check pve metas, like Drakkar, Tangled depths, Auric basin, etc. Loads of em stay afk till the last possible minute, and get full rewards. Same will eventually happen to wvw.

    Thanks for your time and input.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Voltekka , PvP legendary armor is gated by the league tickets not ascended shards of glory (which is the major gate besides the ranked wins for the amulet). There is a faucet of sorts for league tickets via the PvP league achievements.

    See https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Envelope_of_10_League_Tickets

    It's not a major amount as you can receive 100 to 110 tickets at the end of a league season depending on if they trade in a mini llama. For mini-seasons the max is 35. You need 50 tickets per upgrade from ascended to legendary.

    There's also been a precedent with the WvW warclaw track where they do hand out minor amounts of skirmish tickets in a one-off fashion. However, the net cost was 10 skirmish tickets in that particular instance.

    See also the non-repeatable Guildrider Warclaw track which had 250 skirmish tickets given out:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guildrider_Warclaw_Skin_Reward_Track

    For both competitive modes the estimated time for a legendary armor set is around 22 weeks.

    PvP legendary amulet is timegated by the league 70 tickets, you also need 900 ascended shards of glory and 120 ranked wins. It's a similar case with the backpiece which is hard gated by the achievements and 125 league tickets.

    WvW legendary ring is gated by the captures (emblems) so it isn't fully timegated other than by Righteous Indignation and skirmish tickets (1,850 minimum = 6 weeks). The largest hurdle for Warbringer backpiece is similarly the skirmish tickets (2,800 = 8 weeks).


    When the WvW mistforged armor was lowered to 500 ranks (PvP is rank 100) I understood the reasoning as the uptake was low. Seeing someone with it used to mean something. After the change Arenanet ought to have made another prestige tier at 2000 or more which had a dye channel for the light blue glow which currently is not dyeable. I actually use PVP mistforged armor on my engineer since it can be fully dyed.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I will mention @Veprovina.4876 and @Lan Deathrider.5910 , as you two seem to agree on more rewards.
    1. Pve has no weekly extra LI or LD acquisition. I havent checked pvp, but i believe no weekly extra ascended shards vendor exists there. So a weekly / daily / monthly extra skirmish ticket vendor seems out of place, since it is LEGENDARIES we talk about. Not ascended boxes.
    2. 95% of the game caters to the pve community. Why should wvw change rewards to better suit that particular community? Isnt the game about fun? Check sublime chest skin, it was devalued to... 500 ranks, cause apparently wvw having a prestige skin was too much for some, who complained loudly enough. Imagine that happening to prestigious pve raid skins
    3. You havent been playing wvw when skirmish tickets were added to wvw, to see the endless queues of 70+ each day when you couldnt play the mode you enjoyed, because people were trying to get their new shinies. Nuh-uh. 3+ hours of waiting, by which time comms we were in the same guild with ragequit due to lack of any reasonable coordination. Luckily, that queueing only lasted for a couple of weeks, when pvers realised they have to grind many hours of wvw gametime. Imagine pve raid instances being limited, and veteran (or any static group) raiders would have to wait for 3+ hours to play, ohhhh the rage that would ensue
    4. Wvw is in DIRE need of other, more meaningful changes. Changes that cater to its own population rather than the pver mentality of "i wanna git ma shinies fast!!! WHY U GIVE ME THAT FEW PIPS, ANET". Make all classes viable for zerging, solve population imbalance, to mention only a few. You either like wvw, or you dont. Simple as that. No amount of easy rewards will make people like it, on the contrary, it will only make them ask for MORE conveniences.

    1. People will ALWAYS complain and ALWAYS look for the path of least resistance. Check pve metas, like Drakkar, Tangled depths, Auric basin, etc. Loads of em stay afk till the last possible minute, and get full rewards. Same will eventually happen to wvw.

    Thanks for your time and input.

    Oops, i'm only now just seeing this, sorry...

    Anyway...

    Like i said, they can't just slap 1 thing on to WvW and expect it to work, it'll have to be a balancing act.
    Personally, i'm fine with the current maximum of skirmish tickets. The only thing i find "sketchy" is how they increase in chest tiers. I get the thought process behind it, but higher tier chests have their own rewards, tickets should be flat across all chest tiers like OP suggested. That way, people with limited time can also feel appreciated. I'm not one of those people, i actually spend a lot of time in WvW, but you get the picture...
    Lan's idea is more an active one that i also find would balance the gain a bit. If need be, weekly cap does not need be breached, but rather have alternative methods of getting it like actively fighting. For instance, a lot of guilds have fight times throughout the week, and they don't log in long enough to reach diamond (unless they've been playing for 5 years or so). But they do fight a lot. So why not put those emblems to use? Can't reach the cap with participation? Fne, forfeit the diamond rewards (the additional ones to tickets), get tickets with emblems weekly. That way the cap still stays like it is, but people have 2 ways of reaching it. A passive and an active one. You just don't get the MC from diamond and other stuff if you go the emblem route.
    To avoid PvE karma trains, maybe don't allow emblem of the conqueror to be tradeable for rewards...
    I don't know, like i said, balancing act. Would also have to implement a system to detect when cap was reached, so that additional chests don't give any more skirmish tickets if below diamond while the cap was reached... Then how to handle uneven trades (you need 7 tickets to cap - emblem would give you 10 - do the remeaining 3 get deleted or...), and other issues.

    It's true that PvE has no extra beyond the cap, but their reward requirements is also a lot lower than any of the PvP/WvW ones. And WvW timegate doesn't really need to change, just reaching the weekly cap should be a bit more respectful to people's time, that's all.
    Long waiting times i don't think would happen if the timegate would remain the same, even if the cap was easier to reach. PvE players woudln't be keen to fight, and the passive timegate from participation would still be as it is, so i don't think people would be flocking to WvW just for tickets even if the curve was a bit flattened.
    And i agree with you 100% that WvW needs attention. But anything discussed in this thread will never happen before the important stuff. So seeing as how the important stuff is already WAAAAAY behind, i doubt we'll be ever seeing any real improvement both in meaningful changes, or loot related changes. You said it yourself, Anet is PvE focused. Until they devote specific resources to WvW, nothing will change. Just band aid after band aid.

  • Memories of battle are the first wvw only item with market value. They come from skirmish track and reward tracks, which will show that low rank wvw players gain more memories than tickets. Any playing to gold chest or less definitely get more memories than tickets, which is technically designed for them to sell to those who have more tickets than memories. That gold can then be used for gearing themselves up likely through crafting as they have means to acquire liquid gold even if they only play wvw. Anyone maxing out diamond still can get more memories by simply playing more as the reward track continues to give them out.
    Too many people seem to want more/easier things and possibly more suited to their personal style regardless of what it would do to the mode. Make it too kills or capture or defensive based and watch how people adjust, it always surprises people when some or many try to game the system. Anet actually has balanced this part out well(at least after they made your pips stay current whenever you stop to deter the ones who would pop out being afk for 10-15 minutes at the end of their run).

  • Sylvyn.4750Sylvyn.4750 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dinas Dragonbane.2978 said:
    Memories of battle are the first wvw only item with market value. They come from skirmish track and reward tracks, which will show that low rank wvw players gain more memories than tickets. Any playing to gold chest or less definitely get more memories than tickets, which is technically designed for them to sell to those who have more tickets than memories. That gold can then be used for gearing themselves up likely through crafting as they have means to acquire liquid gold even if they only play wvw. Anyone maxing out diamond still can get more memories by simply playing more as the reward track continues to give them out.
    Too many people seem to want more/easier things and possibly more suited to their personal style regardless of what it would do to the mode. Make it too kills or capture or defensive based and watch how people adjust, it always surprises people when some or many try to game the system. Anet actually has balanced this part out well(at least after they made your pips stay current whenever you stop to deter the ones who would pop out being afk for 10-15 minutes at the end of their run).

    Unfortunately, with MoBs tied to the market, the price can be influenced by a variety of factors. Even though they can continue to be earned at a nominal rate by repeating reward tracks, it is still at a measured rate. It's not like farming mats where you can drop into a certain area of a zone and exponentially increase your rate of return by farming nodes that are all close together, so as such, MoBs are even more affected by supply/demand issues. Look at what happened in March of last year when Conflux came out...MoB prices went from around 5s to around 15s nearly overnight. For those needing to buy a stack of MoBs to buy a Triumphant ascended armor item, that shot the base armor cost up to 40g even without the marks, which run about 30g worth of materials if you didn't have any marks collected...so suddenly it became cheaper to make your own ascended from scratch rather than buy it from the skirmish supervisor. How is that a reward for all the time put into WvW, to have to buy things at the same price while earning substantially less gold in WvW than in other modes? If anything, WvW is a gold sink, requiring participation in other modes to afford the WvW habit.

    Here's another comparison...want to change the stats on your Mist Band with a Mist Capacitor? Don't use 250 MoBs to buy it as you can sell 12-13 MoBs for about 125s to then turn around and buy 250 Shards of Glory (PvP equivalent of MoBs) to buy the Mist Capacitor from the PvP vendor because SoGs are only about 50 copper each instead of 11s each, which is the current price for MoBs. This means anytime a PvP player is short on SoGs, they can spend a lot less gold, on a full stack compared to MoBs...1.25g vs 27.5g...that's a 26g difference per stack. Unfortunately, the Mist Capacitor is the only thing that results in some savings for a WvW player by buying Shards of Glory...all other PvP vendor items require PvP exclusive tickets, just like ours require skirmish tickets.

    I don't know what the answer is, but MoBs pricing and acquisition rate are clearly out of balance compared to other modes.

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dinas Dragonbane.2978 they are ofte better invested into ascended gear simply. i don't find the memory price thaaat great. i personally only sold rarer mats and mystic coins, all the stuff that u can farm by rewards tracks as a vet wvw'er en masse.

  • @Sylvyn.4750 said:
    I don't know what the answer is, but MoBs pricing and acquisition rate are clearly out of balance compared to other modes.

    So it either has value or none, similar to how resonating slivers had real value in a guild setting but people complained and now they are totally worthless. Should they just remove them then?

  • Sylvyn.4750Sylvyn.4750 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dinas Dragonbane.2978 said:

    @Sylvyn.4750 said:
    I don't know what the answer is, but MoBs pricing and acquisition rate are clearly out of balance compared to other modes.

    So it either has value or none, similar to how resonating slivers had real value in a guild setting but people complained and now they are totally worthless. Should they just remove them then?

    I don't know...I do know that it is rather annoying that Anet seems to enjoy using 2 currencies for any kind of rewards, currencies that run on parallel courses but the acquisition timing doesn't match up perfectly. In WvW we have both skirmish tickets and memories of battle, PvP has tickets and shards, for many LS3/LS4 trinkets and back items there are unbound or volatile magics and map currencies to obtain simultaneously, though at least map currencies can be salvaged for magic, so why not just eliminate the magics and require more map currencies to be obtained to simulate the same investment of time? How about allowing skirmish tickets to be salvaged into memories of battle?