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Why is Discipline so common in builds?

I’ve got a fairly fresh 80 Warrior that I plan to run through all of the LW story content (which I’ve never actually played before), and as I’m looking to refine my build for solo/open world PvE I keep seeing Discipline crop up in every build, and I’m not sure I understand why.

Is weapon switching really just super common for everyone? I run Axe/Axe as my primary weapon set, and it doesn’t feel like I’m so short of things to do off cool down that a weapon swap would be super useful. Additionally, I like to keep a ranged weapon on swap for those few scenarios where I want to keep my distance (also out of habit from doing a lot of WvW roaming on my Ranger). Are the on swap synergies in the Discipline trait line plus swap runes in weapons really better than just leaning in on your primary weapon? Because if so, then that’s a PEBKAC issue for me, and I should get used to swapping.

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Comments

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    It shaves off 5s on weapon swap cooldown.
    That's huge as it opens up weapon combos and being able to have the right weapon in yur hands for whatever situation.

    Secondary reasons are that it holds few important traits for Warrior :

    • Burst Mastery which is a stable source of Swiftness for Warriors
    • Warrior's Sprint which gives them the ability to break out of immobilization as well as increases their movespeed.
    • Axe Mastery for Axe builds

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Grand Marshal.4098Grand Marshal.4098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    The faster weapon swap, the condi cleanse, the possible damage increase, the removal of immobilize on movement skills, the might on swap and the essential burst mastery trait are all part of most warrior builds.

    They enhance the warrior playstyle by a lot. The minor traits have a 4 sec ICD, which means achieving the lowest possible weapon swap CD (Discipline + Runes of the Warrior) allows you to gain might (great synergy with Strength/Tactics for self heal potential), cleanse 1 condition (in combination with a cleansing sigil +3 cleanses per 9 sec) and generally make everything easier for a warrior.

    The BurstMastery restores adrenaline on bursts and grants swiftness. With no warhorn and without wasting a Balanced Stance for swiftness, our only means of getting it (plus picking traited banners, also on Discipline). Again removal of immobilized is a massive advantage without burning through a cleanse. Immobilize is commonly used for enemies to land bursts on you and avoiding getting hit brings counterplay to that.

    The speed bonus is nice, but I don't think it stacks with swiftness. Still good to have nonetheless when with no swiftness. A nice bonus.

    Swapping is the most essential mechanic on warriors. Swap fast enough when needed and kill your enemy in a single rotation. That is why you won't see discipline used in tankier builds or builds meant to be played with allies. The warrior then prefers more damage output or superior defense rather than utility.

    Finally, Discipline really shines on Spellbreaker where you can generate Insight and instantly refresh your bursts. At that point, the lowest the weapon swap CD the better.

    Edit: speaking from a WvW roaming and PvP perspective. In PvE, run whatever. It doesn't matter, unless you need a dedicated build for Raids, Fractals or Dungeons.

    Make Banner Warrior for Zergs great again!!!

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Warrior has one main mechanic Burst skills, most of the traits need burst skills to trigger, Discipline is about burst skills and adrenaline generation the 5 sec weapon swap is huge and weapons have been balanced around that idea, so warrior can't really do its main mechanic well without Discipline. The one set of weapons that can work standalone without weapon swap is axe axe but the trait is in Discipline.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Weapon swap reduction is one of the primary draws of warrior, couple that with the damage modifiers in the traitline and a reduction in burst cooldown.
    Even defensively , the condition removal is more useful than the defense traitline most of the time.

  • DKRathalos.9625DKRathalos.9625 Member ✭✭✭

    I think discipline so common in build because of the Fast Hands 5 seconds weapon swap and Axe mastery. In PvE highest damage for warrior now is Axe/Axe because of that axe mastery giving a lot of ferocity.
    On WvW/PvP you get 1 extra condi cleanse from weapon swap, ability to remove immobilize with movement skill, return a bit adrenaline after burst.

    If Fasthand going as base warrior and Axe Mastery went to Arms and some redesign of Arms spec, I think we will see Strength/Arms for PvE and then with competitive it will be Strength Discipline or something?

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If Fast Hands was ever made Baseline I think warriors would only run Disc for axe mastery if they ran axe in competitive. For PvE it would still be Discipline due to Double Standards and the requirement that we play as their banner slaves (the traits keeps you from LOOSING dps just to maintain the banners, in all honestly make it triple the state gain instead of double so that the warrior at least gets the same DPS boost as the party).

  • Thank you everyone for the replies. I definitely get the value for pvp/WvW, or for specific builds. I really wish Axe/Axe had a movement skill in there to take advantage of Warrior’s Sprint (and Brave Stride); Sword/Axe isn’t quite as fun to play, and Greatsword just feels clunky.

    That being said, I’ve dropped Discipline into my build, and added Kick as an on-demand movement skill (as well as a hard CC). Figure it’s worth getting used to running with it if I ever decide to do WvW with this guy (instead of my Ranger or Necro).

  • DKRathalos.9625DKRathalos.9625 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    If Fast Hands was ever made Baseline I think warriors would only run Disc for axe mastery if they ran axe in competitive. For PvE it would still be Discipline due to Double Standards and the requirement that we play as their banner slaves (the traits keeps you from LOOSING dps just to maintain the banners, in all honestly make it triple the state gain instead of double so that the warrior at least gets the same DPS boost as the party).

    Triple will be nice to get extra boost to precision and crit chance but... Please tweak the banner and this trait, I mean the trait doesn't even affect the elite banner like kitten.
    But again if anet redesign arm and put axe mastery on new arms, I think we should can be free from BS and go pure DPS? what do you think?

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Arms is the Condi traitline, putting axe mastery there would be counter to its design goal I think.

  • Arms should definitely have it condi role bumped up. Some better flat damage options and a means of selfish sustain would be appreciated too. It's the only line with 0 defense value and I believe that it shouldn't be like that for warrior.

    I digress though, time to think about some meaningful changes for Discipline ig. Suggestiosn that will never be seen by anet XD

    Make Banner Warrior for Zergs great again!!!

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Discipline is the trait line related to ferocity and crit damage historically. Axe mastery belongs there. What Arms needs is for Opportunist, Unsuspecting Foe, and Dual Wielding to be completely reworked and for Burst Precision to linger for a number of seconds after you use a burst based on the adrenaline spent.

    @Dao Jones.6720 Eviscerate is a movement skill.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2021

    @DKRathalos.9625 said:
    But again if anet redesign arm and put axe mastery on new arms, I think we should can be free from BS and go pure DPS? what do you think?

    Warrior can already go "pure dps", not sure what this hypothetical is supposed to be? :D
    It's just that IF you're the only warrior in the squad then not taking banners is overal loss of dps, so not sure why you'd want to do that.

    @Grand Marshal.4098 said:
    Arms should definitely have it condi role bumped up. Some better flat damage options and a means of selfish sustain would be appreciated too. It's the only line with 0 defense value and I believe that it shouldn't be like that for warrior.

    Why not? You pick 3 specs, not every line has to have everything. I'd say it's quite the opposite tbh.

  • DKRathalos.9625DKRathalos.9625 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @DKRathalos.9625 said:
    But again if anet redesign arm and put axe mastery on new arms, I think we should can be free from BS and go pure DPS? what do you think?

    Warrior can already go "pure dps", not sure what this hypothetical is supposed to be? :D
    It's just that IF you're the only warrior in the squad then not taking banners is overal loss of dps, so not sure why you'd want to do that.

    I mean this has to be tandem with the banner design, so hopefully they bumped up warrior to be like a really good DPS as in hitting high number like the other classes so people doesn't always "Oh warrior just go banner." so now warrior will have to have option becoming dps or banner while the only warrior on squad.
    Power Warrior still have a lot of critical chance problem as in. I ever wrote it before

    Take a look at Engi, Necro, and Guardian

    • Engi got 15% crit chance when attacking at 300range, super easy to maintain since engi rarely played at range. Plus the 10% crit chance when hitting bleeding target, bleeding is sooo common especially if raiding there is always bleeding condi.
    • Guardian got 25% crit chance when having retaliation and 10% crit chance when hitting burning target.
    • Reaper just take that 33% crit chance and ferocity trait when on shroud

    Those class very easy hitting the crit cap just with Fury buff.

    Warrior even with fury, precision signet and banner (traited) won't get the crit cap.
    I think I mentioned this crit problem at @Lan Deathrider.5910 's Omnibus trait.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DKRathalos.9625 said:

    I mean this has to be tandem with the banner design, so hopefully they bumped up warrior to be like a really good DPS as in hitting high number like the other classes so people doesn't always "Oh warrior just go banner." so now warrior will have to have option becoming dps or banner while the only warrior on squad.
    Power Warrior still have a lot of critical chance problem as in. I ever wrote it before

    Take a look at Engi, Necro, and Guardian

    • Engi got 15% crit chance when attacking at 300range, super easy to maintain since engi rarely played at range. Plus the 10% crit chance when hitting bleeding target, bleeding is sooo common especially if raiding there is always bleeding condi.
    • Guardian got 25% crit chance when having retaliation and 10% crit chance when hitting burning target.
    • Reaper just take that 33% crit chance and ferocity trait when on shroud

    Those class very easy hitting the crit cap just with Fury buff.

    Warrior even with fury, precision signet and banner (traited) won't get the crit cap.
    I think I mentioned this crit problem at @Lan Deathrider.5910 's Omnibus trait.

    You can easily hit Crit cap versus CC'd targets, including broken breakbars with Unsuspecting Foe. The problem is that in WvW/PvP there are way to many stunbreaks and stability for that trait to be useful there. Don't get me wrong, I've used it in WvW while running Sentinel gear and Precision runes to nuke people after a bull's charge, but it is an unreliable source of crit chance unlike the ones listed above. Burst Precision is better, but is limited to only the Burst.

    What would be best is for Burst Precision to linger for 1s based on the amount of adrenaline spent, so a T3 Burst will give you 3s of 100% crit chance. That may be too high of a duration for 100% chance to crit, but you'd only get it if you hit with the burst. I'd be fine with it being reduced to 25% or 50% if we got the effect as a persisting one.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2021

    @DKRathalos.9625 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @DKRathalos.9625 said:
    But again if anet redesign arm and put axe mastery on new arms, I think we should can be free from BS and go pure DPS? what do you think?

    Warrior can already go "pure dps", not sure what this hypothetical is supposed to be? :D
    It's just that IF you're the only warrior in the squad then not taking banners is overal loss of dps, so not sure why you'd want to do that.

    I mean this has to be tandem with the banner design, so hopefully they bumped up warrior to be like a really good DPS as in hitting high number like the other classes so people doesn't always "Oh warrior just go banner." so now warrior will have to have option becoming dps or banner while the only warrior on squad.

    But warrior already hits good dps values. And people will still want you to go banners if you're the only warrior in the squad, because you'll still provide unique squad-wide buffs that nobody else can. It's like claiming that by slightly increasing rev dmg, people suddenly won't call for alacren. They still will. And banners are even more unique than that.

    Power Warrior still have a lot of critical chance problem as in. I ever wrote it before

    Take a look at Engi, Necro, and Guardian

    • Engi got 15% crit chance when attacking at 300range, super easy to maintain since engi rarely played at range. Plus the 10% crit chance when hitting bleeding target, bleeding is sooo common especially if raiding there is always bleeding condi.
    • Guardian got 25% crit chance when having retaliation and 10% crit chance when hitting burning target.
    • Reaper just take that 33% crit chance and ferocity trait when on shroud

    Those class very easy hitting the crit cap just with Fury buff.

    Warrior even with fury, precision signet and banner (traited) won't get the crit cap.
    I think I mentioned this crit problem at @Lan Deathrider.5910 's Omnibus trait.

    The snowcrows build has 99.95% crit chance (with fury and banner, without spotter), not sure how that's supposed to be problematic? I seriously don't understand what you're talking about here.

  • DKRathalos.9625DKRathalos.9625 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2021

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    The snowcrows build has 99.95% crit chance (with fury and banner, without spotter), not sure how that's supposed to be problematic? I seriously don't understand what you're talking about here.

    Edit: 99.95% crit chance is with spotter without spotter is 95.19%

    OK sorry I maybe not explaining very well, I will try to with my limited language. Warrior have to make "Sacrifice" while the other class just not making any sacrifice.
    I checked the snowcrow build they use thief rune. The precision is nice but the other stat is condition damage? we can ignore that condition damage since not affecting power build.
    10% hitting from side or behind, raid maybe you can get this constantly but I am not sure on doing open world and metas, sometimes it's not the wise to hit monster from side/behind like on chak gerent encounter.

    Compared to other power class which can just use Scholar Rune which benefit them as scholar got power and ferocity both stat affecting power build without have to worry about increasing the crit chance, because they already selfproviding critchance to get nearcap with just fury. Of course scholar got it's own problem with health must be above 90% but it's not position dependant.

    Now imagine if Arms redesign could make Warrior near selfcap with fury and banner then allowing them to use scholar rune, the damage could be higher? This might sound "Oh so greedy" but remember that warrior only rely on the weapon skill to deal damage, not like other class which has utility to deal quite serious damage aside from weapon skill. Warrior utility is just for buff and pure utility nothing really deal serious damage.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2021

    @DKRathalos.9625 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    The snowcrows build has 99.95% crit chance (with fury and banner, without spotter), not sure how that's supposed to be problematic? I seriously don't understand what you're talking about here.

    Edit: 99.95% crit chance is with spotter without spotter is 95.19%

    Nope, it's 99,95% without spotter too, read up.

    OK sorry I maybe not explaining very well, I will try to with my limited language. Warrior have to make "Sacrifice" while the other class just not making any sacrifice.
    I checked the snowcrow build they use thief rune. The precision is nice but the other stat is condition damage? we can ignore that condition damage since not affecting power build.

    What "sacrifice"? If you think you're "sacrifcing" anything by using this rune then use a different one. But you're not, condi damage while not being some kind of main source of dps still adds up because you're passively spamming it on the target anyways.

    10% hitting from side or behind, raid maybe you can get this constantly but I am not sure on doing open world and metas, sometimes it's not the wise to hit monster from side/behind like on chak gerent encounter.

    Cool. You mostly won't be playing raid builds in open world anyways. You also probably won't be expected to play banners, because you won't be running in premade squads most of the time so it doesn't seem your banner complaint applies here in any way. Which is also why I wasn't even talking about that, but w/e.

    Compared to other power class which can just use Scholar Rune which benefit them as scholar got power and ferocity both stat affecting power build without have to worry about increasing the crit chance, because they already selfproviding critchance to get nearcap with just fury. Of course scholar got it's own problem with health must be above 90% but it's not position dependant.

    "I WANT TO USE THE EXACT SAME GEAR ON EVERY CLASS" is a rather weak and pointless complaint to me. Nobody ever said you're supposed to just spam full berk schollar builds on everything everywhere (even tho you still easly can). Not sure what you're complaining about here. Suddenly open world warrior is now problematic?
    And of course somehow being "position dependant" is a total deal breaker (how??), but not being touched on a glass build somehow isn't. You seem to be "a little" biased here.

    Now imagine if Arms redesign could make Warrior near selfcap with fury and banner then allowing them to use scholar rune, the damage could be higher? This might sound "Oh so greedy" but remember that warrior only rely on the weapon skill to deal damage, not like other class which has utility to deal quite serious damage aside from weapon skill. Warrior utility is just for buff and pure utility nothing really deal serious damage.

    Now imagine if everything for every class was "baseline" including every trait from every spec. It would be stronger, so apparently this is what the game needs. But I'll agree with one thing you've said here: "this might sound oh so greedy" -yup, it does and it's because it is. And you know it. Anything always "just could be stronger", I don't see that as any kind of argument.
    As for the utility skills, it really depends on the class AND the build they're going for, so it's definitely not some "universal truth". Not only that, but I also don't see the relevance of that claim to anything that was said before.

  • DKRathalos.9625DKRathalos.9625 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2021

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @DKRathalos.9625 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    The snowcrows build has 99.95% crit chance (with fury and banner, without spotter), not sure how that's supposed to be problematic? I seriously don't understand what you're talking about here.

    Edit: 99.95% crit chance is with spotter without spotter is 95.19%

    Nope, it's 99,95% without spotter too, read up.

    Edit: Wrong Link
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKABcelnlRw4YTsOmJO2WWtKA-zxQYh46fHSQZUbCURB45FAA-e
    Check what is wrong here because I am pretty sure this is already correct.

    "I WANT TO USE THE EXACT SAME GEAR ON EVERY CLASS" is a rather weak and pointless complaint to me. Nobody ever said you're supposed to just spam full berk schollar builds on everything everywhere (even tho you still easly can). Not sure what you're complaining about here. Suddenly open world warrior is now problematic?

    Yet if you see snowcrow every other class using power damage is full berserk (some with 1-2 piece assassin) with scholar, then why warrior got discriminated?

  • Grand Marshal.4098Grand Marshal.4098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2021

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Grand Marshal.4098 said:
    Arms should definitely have it condi role bumped up. Some better flat damage options and a means of selfish sustain would be appreciated too. It's the only line with 0 defense value and I believe that it shouldn't be like that for warrior.

    Why not? You pick 3 specs, not every line has to have everything. I'd say it's quite the opposite tbh.

    In order to reinforce more diversity. When you can have a means of selfish sustain in every line, you won't be locked into always picking strength for might makes right, or defense for adrenal health. With something very minor in arms too (like heal 45 HP per vulnerability stack inflicted, although some reworks are needed for this one which I posted with the help of Lan in the Omnibus thread) you open the possibilities for warriors utilizing Arms as a main traitline instead of a secondary one. Strength and DIscipline are the 2 main lines and that kinda takes away from the buildcrafting.

    Not saying Arms cannot be used at all right now, but it is much better to pick Tactics as a third spec or a second spec instead, which can guarantee some hefty dmg modifiers as well as selfish heals via might share. As such, we have reached a point where the line of priority for specializations on warriors are like this: 1) Strength/Discipline, 2)Tactics/Defense, 3)Arms

    Point being; all traitlines should be more or less equal on what they bring to the table to enhance diverse gameplay. I doubt that something as minor as a Major Master dedicated to some selfish heal in Arms would make warriors dull and repeatable in terms of options. Rather, it would push warriors into choosing that line over say, strength, which vastly outperforms Arms right now in every way, despite both being the "heavy dmg" lines.

    Make Banner Warrior for Zergs great again!!!

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2021

    @DKRathalos.9625 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @DKRathalos.9625 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    The snowcrows build has 99.95% crit chance (with fury and banner, without spotter), not sure how that's supposed to be problematic? I seriously don't understand what you're talking about here.

    Edit: 99.95% crit chance is with spotter without spotter is 95.19%

    Nope, it's 99,95% without spotter too, read up.

    Edit: Wrong Link
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKABcelnlRw4YTsOmJO2WWtKA-zxQYh46fHSQZUbCURB45FAA-e
    Check what is wrong here because I am pretty sure this is already correct.

    Food -when I said "read up", I should be more precise and say: read descriptions of builds you're planning to use.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Grand Marshal.4098 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Grand Marshal.4098 said:
    Arms should definitely have it condi role bumped up. Some better flat damage options and a means of selfish sustain would be appreciated too. It's the only line with 0 defense value and I believe that it shouldn't be like that for warrior.

    Why not? You pick 3 specs, not every line has to have everything. I'd say it's quite the opposite tbh.

    In order to reinforce more diversity. When you can have a means of selfish sustain in every line, you won't be locked into always picking strength for might makes right, or defense for adrenal health. With something very minor in arms too (like heal 45 HP per vulnerability stack inflicted, although some reworks are needed for this one which I posted with the help of Lan in the Omnibus thread) you open the possibilities for warriors utilizing Arms as a main traitline instead of a secondary one. Strength and DIscipline are the 2 main lines and that kinda takes away from the buildcrafting.

    Not saying Arms cannot be used at all right now, but it is much better to pick Tactics as a third spec or a second spec instead, which can guarantee some hefty dmg modifiers as well as selfish heals via might share. As such, we have reached a point where the line of priority for specializations on warriors are like this: 1) Strength/Discipline, 2)Tactics/Defense, 3)Arms

    Point being; all traitlines should be more or less equal on what they bring to the table to enhance diverse gameplay. I doubt that something as minor as a Major Master dedicated to some selfish heal in Arms would make warriors dull and repeatable in terms of options. Rather, it would push warriors into choosing that line over say, strength, which vastly outperforms Arms right now in every way, despite both being the "heavy dmg" lines.

    This is part of why small heals on inflicting vulnerability may be a good thing for warrior. You would have a small source of sustain in 4 of the core traitlines (small is relative, MMR isn't exactly small). On paper Arms has a lot of power, but so does Strength. In Strength's case most of the theoretical power is wasted since it shares a slot with our single most important sustain source, MMR. You could argue that MMR is in the wrong traitline then, but whatever traitline you move it to becomes mandatory then. Frankly I think MMR should be merged into Pinnacle of Strength and a new Grandmaster trait be put in its former place. Something like increasing the distance traveled by movement skills, or gaining swiftness or superspeed upon using a movement skill.

  • @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Grand Marshal.4098 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Grand Marshal.4098 said:
    Arms should definitely have it condi role bumped up. Some better flat damage options and a means of selfish sustain would be appreciated too. It's the only line with 0 defense value and I believe that it shouldn't be like that for warrior.

    Why not? You pick 3 specs, not every line has to have everything. I'd say it's quite the opposite tbh.

    In order to reinforce more diversity. When you can have a means of selfish sustain in every line, you won't be locked into always picking strength for might makes right, or defense for adrenal health. With something very minor in arms too (like heal 45 HP per vulnerability stack inflicted, although some reworks are needed for this one which I posted with the help of Lan in the Omnibus thread) you open the possibilities for warriors utilizing Arms as a main traitline instead of a secondary one. Strength and DIscipline are the 2 main lines and that kinda takes away from the buildcrafting.

    Not saying Arms cannot be used at all right now, but it is much better to pick Tactics as a third spec or a second spec instead, which can guarantee some hefty dmg modifiers as well as selfish heals via might share. As such, we have reached a point where the line of priority for specializations on warriors are like this: 1) Strength/Discipline, 2)Tactics/Defense, 3)Arms

    Point being; all traitlines should be more or less equal on what they bring to the table to enhance diverse gameplay. I doubt that something as minor as a Major Master dedicated to some selfish heal in Arms would make warriors dull and repeatable in terms of options. Rather, it would push warriors into choosing that line over say, strength, which vastly outperforms Arms right now in every way, despite both being the "heavy dmg" lines.

    This is part of why small heals on inflicting vulnerability may be a good thing for warrior. You would have a small source of sustain in 4 of the core traitlines (small is relative, MMR isn't exactly small). On paper Arms has a lot of power, but so does Strength. In Strength's case most of the theoretical power is wasted since it shares a slot with our single most important sustain source, MMR. You could argue that MMR is in the wrong traitline then, but whatever traitline you move it to becomes mandatory then. Frankly I think MMR should be merged into Pinnacle of Strength and a new Grandmaster trait be put in its former place. Something like increasing the distance traveled by movement skills, or gaining swiftness or superspeed upon using a movement skill.

    Would absolutely love to see something new there myself.

    Something to add since we talk about Arms and signets are part of Arms, as mentioned countless times, Healing Signet has been butchered. Now if it was a better passive heal, maybe I wouldn't advocate for a form of sustain in arms, but there's that.

    Strength and Discipline can lowkey be altered way more than the eye can see tbh. And while we are at it, Major Master 3 in Strength also looks like a subpar trait, cause extra vit was never really an issue with warrior. perhaps something like this could be instead implemented in Discipline, so we can have some form of sustain option (heal/vit) inb all 5 core specs. This would greatly enhance the elite specs too, without crazy sustain coming from them either (for what it's worth, spellbreaker was way too many powerful defense options).

    Make Banner Warrior for Zergs great again!!!

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dao Jones.6720 I apologize that your thread for derailed away from Discipline, but you've touched a nerve on the state of Warrior traitlines. Discipline is so common really because after Strength there really isn't anything better unless you are rolling an elite spec.

    So here is the skinny.

    Strength offers 490 power, 3-5% extra raw damage, Physical skill CD reduction, MASSIVE might gain, massive endurance gain, and because of that massive might generation, even more endurance gain and very strong healing. Strength is as much a personal sustain line as it is our personal DPS line.

    Discipline offers 3-7% more damage with swiftness, removal of immob on movement skills, shorter weapon swap, might gain and adrenaline gain on weapon swap, shorter Burst CDs, adrenaline refund on Burst, 7% more damage on a burst OR massive criticals and adrenaline gain with Axe.

    What do the other core traitlines offer?

    Arms:
    ~15% condi duration, a small amount of fury, adrenaline and extra condi damage on critical, extra bleed duration, bleed on crit but lol 1s duration. It can also offer 33% critical damage, 50% crit chance vs CCd targets (which will not last long), 10 Vuln on targets you hit with a Burst, 100% crit chance but only on highly telegraphed Burst attacks, or potentially 20% increased attack speed that does not stack with any other source.

    Defense:
    Blocks reflect projectiles and grant might (lol 1s), gain small amount of regen and a small reduction in movement impairing conditions, 7% damage versus weakened foes with a chance to weaken them, a 300s CD defensive trait, toughness -> power conversion, increased CC duration but only with mace (a slow af weapon), ANOTHER 300s cd defensive trait, gain adrenaline on hit and cleanse condi on burst, gain 1000 toughness on a stunbreak and a small heal. The best things in Defense are Adrenal Health for a medium health regen upon burst, 5% damage reduction at high HP, and 10% damage reduction with retaliation but said trait is the only source of retaliation on core.

    Tactics:
    Immob on Crit + 7% more damage, heal on burst but with a 15s CD, more boons on Warhorn, Massive damage versus high HP targets and even more massive damage if they have barrier (but not in PvP because stupid reasons), heal when you cleanse damaging condis and auto stunbreak, +100 power for you team, weapon CD reduction of 3s every 15s, healing shouts, Might sharing. You also get more damage per boon on you, might on burst (15s cd) and gain 50 hp per stack of might you grant to ANYONE.

    Outside of taking an elite spec, of those 5 options which 3 would you take now knowing the full summation of what the traitlines offer?

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Grand Marshal.4098 said:

    Would absolutely love to see something new there myself.

    Something to add since we talk about Arms and signets are part of Arms, as mentioned countless times, Healing Signet has been butchered. Now if it was a better passive heal, maybe I wouldn't advocate for a form of sustain in arms, but there's that.

    Strength and Discipline can lowkey be altered way more than the eye can see tbh. And while we are at it, Major Master 3 in Strength also looks like a subpar trait, cause extra vit was never really an issue with warrior. perhaps something like this could be instead implemented in Discipline, so we can have some form of sustain option (heal/vit) inb all 5 core specs. This would greatly enhance the elite specs too, without crazy sustain coming from them either (for what it's worth, spellbreaker was way too many powerful defense options).

    My take on what needs to happen to Strength:

    Remove Great Fortitude and replace it with:
    Deadly Sprint: Movement Skills grant swiftness (5s), 10s CD. Swiftness grants 1/2 stacks of might (5s) per second. (PvE/Comp split)

    Merge Might Makes Right into Pinnacle of Strength, reduce the healing scaling from 0.02 to 0.01, in its place in the Grandmaster Tier add the following:
    Unstoppable Momentum: Movement skills travel longer distances. Each movement skill travels 150 further.

    Change Restorative Strength to:
    When you use a heal skill cast Lesser "For Great Justice!".
    Lesser For Great Justice: Grant 3 stacks of might for 6s and fury for 6s to allies within range. No split. Yes, it counts as a shout. Yes, I am aware of the relevant trait interactions, that is why it is only 3 might stacks.

    Body Blow:
    Change the single stack of bleed to 500 damage (0.6 scaling), can critically hit. Body Blow otherwise is unchanged, which means Stability will negate the extra damage, but that AoE CCs will do AoE damage, and Hammer gets to actually benefit from Merciless Hammer.

    With those changes you have in Strength a line that enhances damage via might and power increases or flat damage modifiers, a line that enhances CCs ,reduces the CDs of physical skills most of which are CCs, and a line that enhances movement skills, one of each such line in each tier directly competing with one another WHICH IS INHERENTLY SELF BALANCING.

    Merging MMR into Pinnacle of Strength opens up build diversity since it is such a critical trait to warrior survivability it has become mandatory, and such things should be placed within minor traits. The healing scaling reduction is for moving it to a minor trait, alternatively the base heal could be reduced to 75 hp in competitive play.

    This results in a more cohesive traitline where each trait has a distinct purpose, is not dead weight, and is worthy of taking each in their own right and thus actually compete for their slots. It also solidifies the theme of the traitline to be Endurance and HP gain on the minor traits and Damage, CC, and Mobility enhancements via the major traits.

    Each traitline, on every class, needs to be treated like this. Each of the three traits in a tier need to have themes that are common across the tiers, that are equally useful, and stand on their own with anything that is viewed as absolutely mandatory placed into or merged into a minor trait. If Fast Hands were a major trait, it would always be taken, there is a reason it is a minor trait.

    Takes Arms for example.

    In each tier one trait needs to augment condition builds, one to augment critical hit chance or precision, and that last needs to be a trait focused on dual wielding. Dual wielding is a theme of Arms along with critical hit chance and condition damage, but was only ever relegated to a single useless trait. There needs to be three traits there, one in each tier focused on dual wielding.

    I would merge Crack Shot into Wounding Precision (keep the Crack Shot name), make the current AA effects it grants baseline, and turn it into:
    Crack Shot:
    Gain 10% Condition duration. This Duration is doubled if using a ranged weapon. Ranged weapons have 20% reduced weapon skill CDs.

    In Crack Shot's former place in Discipline I would add in +25% critical damage versus foes under 50% HP trait, call it Warrior's Ferocity.

    Signet Mastery:
    Change to grant stacks of Signet of Precision (+100 precision per stack) otherwise it is unchanged. This change is because Discipline is the historical Ferocity traitline, not Arms.

    Unsuspecting Foe:
    Disabling a foe grants fury (5s), 10s CD. Fury you gain has increased effectiveness (Fury grants 30% Critical hit chance).

    Replace Opportunist with the following:
    Weapon Master:
    When wielding an mainhand weapon in you offhand your critical strikes gain enhanced effects:
    Axe: 33% chance on crit to inflict cripple (2s).
    Sword: 33% chance to inflict torment (5s).
    Mace: 33% chance to inflict weakness (2s).
    Dagger: 33% chance to strip a boon.
    (And if we get Pistol/Pistol or /Pistol there would have to be a relevant effect here based on Pistol's theme(s).)

    Change Sundering Burst to Sundering Blows:
    Sundering Blows:
    Critical hits have a 50% chance to inflict vulnerability (5s). Inflicting vulnerability heals you for 45 hp. These effects are doubled if you are wielding an mainhand weapon in your offhand. No healing scaling, just a flat 45 heal, 90 if you are dual wielding. Taking the FGS approach here to greater shore up the dual wielding theme, but I want other weapons to have access to a small source of sustain within Arms.

    Burst Precision:
    Reduce the critical hit chance to +25%. This effect now lingers for 1s per bar of adrenaline spent.
    With the new Signet Mastery and Unsuspecting Foe you can run a 0 Precision build like some other classes can. This offers more build diversity since it opens up a stat for other things. You'd lose out on other things though, so it may not be an optimal decision to make since it requires 3 traits, one of which requires a ramp up time.

    Dual Wielding:
    Gain 15% increased attack speed. This effect is doubled if you wield a mainhand weapon in your offhand. *Special notes: I would advocate for the increased attack speed from Berserk Mode to stack with this effect. The base increase is to help with Warrior's chronically telegraphed attacks to be a bit faster and less telegraphed, you just have to take a trait for it.

  • @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Grand Marshal.4098 said:

    Would absolutely love to see something new there myself.

    Something to add since we talk about Arms and signets are part of Arms, as mentioned countless times, Healing Signet has been butchered. Now if it was a better passive heal, maybe I wouldn't advocate for a form of sustain in arms, but there's that.

    Strength and Discipline can lowkey be altered way more than the eye can see tbh. And while we are at it, Major Master 3 in Strength also looks like a subpar trait, cause extra vit was never really an issue with warrior. perhaps something like this could be instead implemented in Discipline, so we can have some form of sustain option (heal/vit) inb all 5 core specs. This would greatly enhance the elite specs too, without crazy sustain coming from them either (for what it's worth, spellbreaker was way too many powerful defense options).

    My take on what needs to happen to Strength:

    Remove Great Fortitude and replace it with:
    Deadly Sprint: Movement Skills grant swiftness (5s), 10s CD. Swiftness grants 1/2 stacks of might (5s) per second. (PvE/Comp split)

    Merge Might Makes Right into Pinnacle of Strength, reduce the healing scaling from 0.02 to 0.01, in its place in the Grandmaster Tier add the following:
    Unstoppable Momentum: Movement skills travel longer distances. Each movement skill travels 150 further.

    Change Restorative Strength to:
    When you use a heal skill cast Lesser "For Great Justice!".
    Lesser For Great Justice: Grant 3 stacks of might for 6s and fury for 6s to allies within range. No split. Yes, it counts as a shout. Yes, I am aware of the relevant trait interactions, that is why it is only 3 might stacks.

    Body Blow:
    Change the single stack of bleed to 500 damage (0.6 scaling), can critically hit. Body Blow otherwise is unchanged, which means Stability will negate the extra damage, but that AoE CCs will do AoE damage, and Hammer gets to actually benefit from Merciless Hammer.

    With those changes you have in Strength a line that enhances damage via might and power increases or flat damage modifiers, a line that enhances CCs ,reduces the CDs of physical skills most of which are CCs, and a line that enhances movement skills, one of each such line in each tier directly competing with one another WHICH IS INHERENTLY SELF BALANCING.

    Merging MMR into Pinnacle of Strength opens up build diversity since it is such a critical trait to warrior survivability it has become mandatory, and such things should be placed within minor traits. The healing scaling reduction is for moving it to a minor trait, alternatively the base heal could be reduced to 75 hp in competitive play.

    This results in a more cohesive traitline where each trait has a distinct purpose, is not dead weight, and is worthy of taking each in their own right and thus actually compete for their slots. It also solidifies the theme of the traitline to be Endurance and HP gain on the minor traits and Damage, CC, and Mobility enhancements via the major traits.

    Each traitline, on every class, needs to be treated like this. Each of the three traits in a tier need to have themes that are common across the tiers, that are equally useful, and stand on their own with anything that is viewed as absolutely mandatory placed into or merged into a minor trait. If Fast Hands were a major trait, it would always be taken, there is a reason it is a minor trait.

    Takes Arms for example.

    In each tier one trait needs to augment condition builds, one to augment critical hit chance or precision, and that last needs to be a trait focused on dual wielding. Dual wielding is a theme of Arms along with critical hit chance and condition damage, but was only ever relegated to a single useless trait. There needs to be three traits there, one in each tier focused on dual wielding.

    I would merge Crack Shot into Wounding Precision (keep the Crack Shot name), make the current AA effects it grants baseline, and turn it into:
    Crack Shot:
    Gain 10% Condition duration. This Duration is doubled if using a ranged weapon. Ranged weapons have 20% reduced weapon skill CDs.

    In Crack Shot's former place in Discipline I would add in +25% critical damage versus foes under 50% HP trait, call it Warrior's Ferocity.

    Signet Mastery:
    Change to grant stacks of Signet of Precision (+100 precision per stack) otherwise it is unchanged. This change is because Discipline is the historical Ferocity traitline, not Arms.

    Unsuspecting Foe:
    Disabling a foe grants fury (5s), 10s CD. Fury you gain has increased effectiveness (Fury grants 30% Critical hit chance).

    Replace Opportunist with the following:
    Weapon Master:
    When wielding an mainhand weapon in you offhand your critical strikes gain enhanced effects:
    Axe: 33% chance on crit to inflict cripple (2s).
    Sword: 33% chance to inflict torment (5s).
    Mace: 33% chance to inflict weakness (2s).
    Dagger: 33% chance to strip a boon.
    (And if we get Pistol/Pistol or /Pistol there would have to be a relevant effect here based on Pistol's theme(s).)

    Change Sundering Burst to Sundering Blows:
    Sundering Blows:
    Critical hits have a 50% chance to inflict vulnerability (5s). Inflicting vulnerability heals you for 45 hp. These effects are doubled if you are wielding an mainhand weapon in your offhand. No healing scaling, just a flat 45 heal, 90 if you are dual wielding. Taking the FGS approach here to greater shore up the dual wielding theme, but I want other weapons to have access to a small source of sustain within Arms.

    Burst Precision:
    Reduce the critical hit chance to +25%. This effect now lingers for 1s per bar of adrenaline spent.
    With the new Signet Mastery and Unsuspecting Foe you can run a 0 Precision build like some other classes can. This offers more build diversity since it opens up a stat for other things. You'd lose out on other things though, so it may not be an optimal decision to make since it requires 3 traits, one of which requires a ramp up time.

    Dual Wielding:
    Gain 15% increased attack speed. This effect is doubled if you wield a mainhand weapon in your offhand. *Special notes: I would advocate for the increased attack speed from Berserk Mode to stack with this effect. The base increase is to help with Warrior's chronically telegraphed attacks to be a bit faster and less telegraphed, you just have to take a trait for it.

    Very good points. I'm particularly interested on your Lesser FGJ suggestion. Lesser shouts, just as lesser stance effects on a reworked defense, should be a bit more prevalent. Shrug it off is a good example of that. Hell, somehow putting somewhere a lesser "fear me" as a defense mechanism which currently works with Cull the weak too, would be a very interesting idea!

    Make Banner Warrior for Zergs great again!!!

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Grand Marshal.4098 said:

    Very good points. I'm particularly interested on your Lesser FGJ suggestion. Lesser shouts, just as lesser stance effects on a reworked defense, should be a bit more prevalent. Shrug it off is a good example of that. Hell, somehow putting somewhere a lesser "fear me" as a defense mechanism which currently works with Cull the weak too, would be a very interesting idea!

    Fear me should not have a lesser version that is automatic. An AoE fear when CC'd would be too powerful and CmC would slap a 300s CD on it.

    Anet needs to go through all the specs leading up to EoD and streamline them like I did above in my two examples.

  • @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    @Dao Jones.6720 I apologize that your thread for derailed away from Discipline, but you've touched a nerve on the state of Warrior traitlines. Discipline is so common really because after Strength there really isn't anything better unless you are rolling an elite spec.

    Not at all! I’m actually finding the conversation interesting. While some of the specific issues seem to be magnified for PvP/WvW, the overall discussion remains interesting given that I’ve found I’m enjoying Warrior much more than I did 8 years ago. Plus, now I’m running with Discipline, as well as Tactics because Healing Shouts seems like a better add than anything you get out of Defense or Arms. (Although I do miss the 20% attack speed increase from Dual Wielding. It was fun being a spastic A/A blender.)

    I do wish the traitlines were better arranged, like most of you seem to. Some of the other classes have pretty clear themes for their traits, whereas Warrior just kinda has stuff everywhere.

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭✭

    there's a problem right now that spellbreaker outshines defense, why would you take defense that barely gives you any sustain when u have spellbreaker which gives u tons of sustain on top of damage, i think defense is in a more awkward situation compared to arms, arms atleast still have pve condition build

    defense is literally a garbage version of spellbreaker for when u have berserker so u cant take spellbreaker.
    that leads to another problem, berserker's sustain is too weak that u needs to spec for defense, even with defense berserker is still unplayable for how garbage the sustain is, for the lack of might gen. and that by picking defense, berserker not only does less damage in pvp, but also has less sustain then spellbreaker.
    and this leads to another problem, when u spec for might gen, strength is just a better defense trait with sustain and damage together.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Berserker makes most core sustain 10% stronger, excluding most of Defense's sustain.

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭

    5 Sec cooldown on swap is just necessary imo. It should have been baseline long ago.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2021

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    5 Sec cooldown on swap is just necessary imo. It should have been baseline long ago.

    It's not "necessary", it's "strong" -and it would be for any other class as well. :D If anything "strong"/"optimal"/"meta" is classified as "necessary" and automatically somehow is a reason to make it baseline then we end up with one build per class and no trait system.

    (...I guess it's this time of the year again :p )

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2021

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    5 Sec cooldown on swap is just necessary imo. It should have been baseline long ago.

    It's not "necessary", it's "strong" -and it would be for any other class as well. :D If anything "strong"/"optimal"/"meta" is classified as "necessary" and automatically somehow is a reason to make it baseline then we end up with one build per class and no trait system.

    (...I guess it's this time of the year again :p )

    The thing is Warrior has Burst skills as main mechanic and they are tied to the weapon you are wielding for the other classes it doesn't matter weapon you are wielding to cast your special mechanic so the 5 s swap gives you the ability to use it when needed , like the other classes, also warrior doesn't have much room with skills , the utilities are supplementary and most of the power on warrior comes from Weapons and almost all sets are tuned to be swapped on 5 seconds. All of the tuning on warrior over the years has been made with Discipline being always taken even though the traits on it are really basic they make warrior work. Imagine if thief had to take some traitline so it can use stealth attacks or dual wield attacks.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2021

    It seems you're just throwing anything you can think of regardless of whether or not it's true, but lets go through things you've listed to show how I feel about them:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    5 Sec cooldown on swap is just necessary imo. It should have been baseline long ago.

    It's not "necessary", it's "strong" -and it would be for any other class as well. :D If anything "strong"/"optimal"/"meta" is classified as "necessary" and automatically somehow is a reason to make it baseline then we end up with one build per class and no trait system.

    (...I guess it's this time of the year again :p )

    The thing is Warrior has Burst skills as main mechanic and they are tied to the weapon you are wielding

    Yes, the burst skills are the only thing that are somewhat connected to weapon swap imo. But they still have 8sec icd, so that connection is still sort of limited.

    for the other classes it doesn't matter weapon you are wielding to cast your special mechanic so the 5 s swap gives you the ability to use it when needed ,

    For some more than the other, but the weapon swap is still effectively as good as a 4 (I'm not counting 1 here, might be worth counting for swapping between melee/range weapons, where that range will make difference, in some cases more than in other) skillbar toggle. Those skills have their utility and the more free you are to swap between them without being bound to the entire skillset for 9 seconds, the better you can use their potential. Right? This is the primary reason I say lowering weaponswap cd is strong for pretty much any class regardless of their mechanics.

    like the other classes, also warrior doesn't have much room with skills ,

    That might be somewhat true in some cases, but in general... I'm not sure about that.

    the utilities are supplementary and most of the power on warrior comes from Weapons

    The utilities are exactly like you pick them. If you pick active skills, they're active. If you pick passive skills... they'll be passive/supplementary (but I'm not sure if I understand what exactly you mean by "supplementary"? Isn't this the case for most classes/builds?). Warrior isn't really so different in this aspect in comparison to other professions.

    and almost all sets are tuned to be swapped on 5 seconds.

    This seems mostly false to me?

    All of the tuning on warrior over the years has been made with Discipline being always taken even though the traits on it are really basic they make warrior work. Imagine if thief had to take some traitline so it can use stealth attacks or dual wield attacks.

    Sorry, but is warrior, by any chance, the only class you play? This (having a go-to spec) is the case for a lot classes and by bringing up thief as a comparison you basically shoot yourself in the foot ;p Not only that, but claming that warrior without disci is somehow locked out of mechanics is a huge stretch if not straight up false. Sure, warrior is strong with disci, but it's because disci offers a lot of utility and passive power.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    It seems you're just throwing anything you can think of regardless of whether or not it's true, but lets go through things you've listed to show how I feel about them:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    5 Sec cooldown on swap is just necessary imo. It should have been baseline long ago.

    It's not "necessary", it's "strong" -and it would be for any other class as well. :D If anything "strong"/"optimal"/"meta" is classified as "necessary" and automatically somehow is a reason to make it baseline then we end up with one build per class and no trait system.

    (...I guess it's this time of the year again :p )

    The thing is Warrior has Burst skills as main mechanic and they are tied to the weapon you are wielding

    Yes, the burst skills are the only thing that are somewhat connected to weapon swap imo. But they still have 8sec icd, so that connection is still sort of limited.

    for the other classes it doesn't matter weapon you are wielding to cast your special mechanic so the 5 s swap gives you the ability to use it when needed ,

    For some more than the other, but the weapon swap is still effectively as good as a 4 (I'm not counting 1 here, might be worth counting for swapping between melee/range weapons, where that range will make difference, in some cases more than in other) skillbar toggle. Those skills have their utility and the more free you are to swap between them without being bound to the entire skillset for 9 seconds, the better you can use their potential. Right? This is the primary reason I say lowering weaponswap cd is strong for pretty much any class regardless of their mechanics.

    like the other classes, also warrior doesn't have much room with skills ,

    That might be somewhat true in some cases, but in general... I'm not sure about that.

    the utilities are supplementary and most of the power on warrior comes from Weapons

    The utilities are exactly like you pick them. If you pick active skills, they're active. If you pick passive skills... they'll be passive/supplementary (but I'm not sure if I understand what exactly you mean by "supplementary"? Isn't this the case for most classes/builds?). Warrior isn't really so different in this aspect in comparison to other professions.

    and almost all sets are tuned to be swapped on 5 seconds.

    This seems mostly false to me?

    All of the tuning on warrior over the years has been made with Discipline being always taken even though the traits on it are really basic they make warrior work. Imagine if thief had to take some traitline so it can use stealth attacks or dual wield attacks.

    Sorry, but is warrior, by any chance, the only class you play? This (having a go-to spec) is the case for a lot classes and by bringing up thief as a comparison you basically shoot yourself in the foot ;p Not only that, but claming that warrior without disci is somehow locked out of mechanics is a huge stretch if not straight up false. Sure, warrior is strong with disci, but it's because disci offers a lot of utility and passive power.

    Look at this https://metabattle.com/wiki/Warrior every build uses Discipline I checked them even expected to not see it on some WvW builds but nope it is in there. Both of the elite specks on warrior are all about bursts, there isn't much room to wiggle on warrior with the build craft. I used as an example Thief since it has multiple special mechanics that come out of the box without the need to trait for them, stealth attacks, dual wield, the energy system that lets you use skills without cd, steal and stolen items. Lets use another profession then Guardian, virtues and the elite versions are not that defining and has variety of builds all the time without the need for the Virtues traitline or lets take another class with hard defined main mechanic like warrior, Necromancer, it can be played in variety of ways without the need of soul reaping . The shroud mechanic takes a step back and becomes supplement as a defensive tool so even though shroud is the main mechanic it does not need traits to function well. Almost all of the utilities on warrior are there to help it use its weapons better, there is no trap something well something to define a build it is always weapons. When you look at all the utilities you can see that rage, meditations, stances and physical skills are all about making weapons work better and then you have shouts and banners which are about support force you to use weapons to defend yourself or in PVE do more dps so you dip into discipline. You can do a minute man build STR/ARMS/Berserker for pvp where you burst down people with signets for about 5 seconds and then wait for cooldowns and if you fail these 5 well you wait there being useless and most probably dead, not exactly all rounder build is it.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2021

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    It seems you're just throwing anything you can think of regardless of whether or not it's true, but lets go through things you've listed to show how I feel about them:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    5 Sec cooldown on swap is just necessary imo. It should have been baseline long ago.

    It's not "necessary", it's "strong" -and it would be for any other class as well. :D If anything "strong"/"optimal"/"meta" is classified as "necessary" and automatically somehow is a reason to make it baseline then we end up with one build per class and no trait system.

    (...I guess it's this time of the year again :p )

    The thing is Warrior has Burst skills as main mechanic and they are tied to the weapon you are wielding

    Yes, the burst skills are the only thing that are somewhat connected to weapon swap imo. But they still have 8sec icd, so that connection is still sort of limited.

    for the other classes it doesn't matter weapon you are wielding to cast your special mechanic so the 5 s swap gives you the ability to use it when needed ,

    For some more than the other, but the weapon swap is still effectively as good as a 4 (I'm not counting 1 here, might be worth counting for swapping between melee/range weapons, where that range will make difference, in some cases more than in other) skillbar toggle. Those skills have their utility and the more free you are to swap between them without being bound to the entire skillset for 9 seconds, the better you can use their potential. Right? This is the primary reason I say lowering weaponswap cd is strong for pretty much any class regardless of their mechanics.

    like the other classes, also warrior doesn't have much room with skills ,

    That might be somewhat true in some cases, but in general... I'm not sure about that.

    the utilities are supplementary and most of the power on warrior comes from Weapons

    The utilities are exactly like you pick them. If you pick active skills, they're active. If you pick passive skills... they'll be passive/supplementary (but I'm not sure if I understand what exactly you mean by "supplementary"? Isn't this the case for most classes/builds?). Warrior isn't really so different in this aspect in comparison to other professions.

    and almost all sets are tuned to be swapped on 5 seconds.

    This seems mostly false to me?

    All of the tuning on warrior over the years has been made with Discipline being always taken even though the traits on it are really basic they make warrior work. Imagine if thief had to take some traitline so it can use stealth attacks or dual wield attacks.

    Sorry, but is warrior, by any chance, the only class you play? This (having a go-to spec) is the case for a lot classes and by bringing up thief as a comparison you basically shoot yourself in the foot ;p Not only that, but claming that warrior without disci is somehow locked out of mechanics is a huge stretch if not straight up false. Sure, warrior is strong with disci, but it's because disci offers a lot of utility and passive power.

    Look at this https://metabattle.com/wiki/Warrior every build uses Discipline I checked them even expected to not see it on some WvW builds but nope it is in there.

    I don't know what this is supposed to be answering to and how does it change anything I wrote above?

    Both of the elite specks on warrior are all about bursts, there isn't much room to wiggle on warrior with the build craft. I used as an example Thief since it has multiple special mechanics that come out of the box without the need to trait for them, stealth attacks, dual wield, the energy system that lets you use skills without cd, steal and stolen items.

    Warrior doesn't need any spec to use the burst skills, let alone discipline, not sure what that's about.
    Pretty much every competitive thief build is cornered into trickery btw, right? Time to make it baseline.

    Lets use another profession then Guardian, virtues and the elite versions are not that defining and has variety of builds all the time without the need for the Virtues traitline

    ...discipline isn't "defining" either. And every guard build seems to be using virtues. Looks about the same to me, the main difference being: you only play warrior, so if the same situation takes place in another class then it doesn't matter "because I said so and my class deserves making strongest traits into innate profession passive effects". It really seems this is all it is about. In the end discipline has much more synergy with itself than it has with warrior as a class.

    Almost all of the utilities on warrior are there to help it use its weapons better, there is no trap something well something to define a build it is always weapons.

    No, it's not. Maybe it is for the triats you're using, but it's not a general rule. I also don't understand how "trap/well" has any relevance here?

    When you look at all the utilities you can see that rage, meditations, stances and physical skills are all about making weapons work better and then you have shouts and banners which are about support force you to use weapons to defend yourself or in PVE do more dps so you dip into discipline.

    What are you even talking about here? "shouts and banners which are about support force you to use weapons to defend yourself"? What? Physical skills are "all about making weapons work"? Some of those skills have as much utility as you could ask from a utility skill, not sure what you're complaining about here. Stances are just stances with varrying effects, it's similar for some of the other classes. Meditations also have varying offensive/defensive/utility effects, not sure how it's somehow "all about weapons" here. Pretty similarly with rage. You're stretching this whole thing pretty thin here...

    Anyways, it would be better if you just answered to what I wrote before in the responseto your initial post instead of trying to list random things and claiming they're "all about weapons", when they're not. If I tried to answer specifically to what you wrote and then you just skip right over it just to make another vague list of stuff then what's even the point.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    It seems you're just throwing anything you can think of regardless of whether or not it's true, but lets go through things you've listed to show how I feel about them:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    5 Sec cooldown on swap is just necessary imo. It should have been baseline long ago.

    It's not "necessary", it's "strong" -and it would be for any other class as well. :D If anything "strong"/"optimal"/"meta" is classified as "necessary" and automatically somehow is a reason to make it baseline then we end up with one build per class and no trait system.

    (...I guess it's this time of the year again :p )

    The thing is Warrior has Burst skills as main mechanic and they are tied to the weapon you are wielding

    Yes, the burst skills are the only thing that are somewhat connected to weapon swap imo. But they still have 8sec icd, so that connection is still sort of limited.

    for the other classes it doesn't matter weapon you are wielding to cast your special mechanic so the 5 s swap gives you the ability to use it when needed ,

    For some more than the other, but the weapon swap is still effectively as good as a 4 (I'm not counting 1 here, might be worth counting for swapping between melee/range weapons, where that range will make difference, in some cases more than in other) skillbar toggle. Those skills have their utility and the more free you are to swap between them without being bound to the entire skillset for 9 seconds, the better you can use their potential. Right? This is the primary reason I say lowering weaponswap cd is strong for pretty much any class regardless of their mechanics.

    like the other classes, also warrior doesn't have much room with skills ,

    That might be somewhat true in some cases, but in general... I'm not sure about that.

    the utilities are supplementary and most of the power on warrior comes from Weapons

    The utilities are exactly like you pick them. If you pick active skills, they're active. If you pick passive skills... they'll be passive/supplementary (but I'm not sure if I understand what exactly you mean by "supplementary"? Isn't this the case for most classes/builds?). Warrior isn't really so different in this aspect in comparison to other professions.

    and almost all sets are tuned to be swapped on 5 seconds.

    This seems mostly false to me?

    All of the tuning on warrior over the years has been made with Discipline being always taken even though the traits on it are really basic they make warrior work. Imagine if thief had to take some traitline so it can use stealth attacks or dual wield attacks.

    Sorry, but is warrior, by any chance, the only class you play? This (having a go-to spec) is the case for a lot classes and by bringing up thief as a comparison you basically shoot yourself in the foot ;p Not only that, but claming that warrior without disci is somehow locked out of mechanics is a huge stretch if not straight up false. Sure, warrior is strong with disci, but it's because disci offers a lot of utility and passive power.

    Look at this https://metabattle.com/wiki/Warrior every build uses Discipline I checked them even expected to not see it on some WvW builds but nope it is in there.

    I don't know what this is supposed to be answering to and how does it change anything I wrote above?

    Both of the elite specks on warrior are all about bursts, there isn't much room to wiggle on warrior with the build craft. I used as an example Thief since it has multiple special mechanics that come out of the box without the need to trait for them, stealth attacks, dual wield, the energy system that lets you use skills without cd, steal and stolen items.

    Warrior doesn't need any spec to use the burst skills, let alone discipline, not sure what that's about.
    Pretty much every competitive thief build is cornered into trickery btw, right? Time to make it baseline.

    Lets use another profession then Guardian, virtues and the elite versions are not that defining and has variety of builds all the time without the need for the Virtues traitline

    ...discipline isn't "defining" either. And every guard build seems to be using virtues. Looks about the same to me, the main difference being: you only play warrior, so if the same situation takes place in another class then it doesn't matter "because I said so and my class deserves making strongest traits into innate profession passive effects". It really seems this is all it is about. In the end discipline has much more synergy with itself than it has with warrior as a class.

    Almost all of the utilities on warrior are there to help it use its weapons better, there is no trap something well something to define a build it is always weapons.

    No, it's not. Maybe it is for the triats you're using, but it's not a general rule. I also don't understand how "trap/well" has any relevance here?

    When you look at all the utilities you can see that rage, meditations, stances and physical skills are all about making weapons work better and then you have shouts and banners which are about support force you to use weapons to defend yourself or in PVE do more dps so you dip into discipline.

    What are you even talking about here? "shouts and banners which are about support force you to use weapons to defend yourself"? What? Physical skills are "all about making weapons work"? Some of those skills have as much utility as you could ask from a utility skill, not sure what you're complaining about here. Stances are just stances with varrying effects, it's similar for some of the other classes. Meditations also have varying offensive/defensive/utility effects, not sure how it's somehow "all about weapons" here. Pretty similarly with rage. You're stretching this whole thing pretty thin here...

    Anyways, it would be better if you just answered to what I wrote before in the responseto your initial post instead of trying to list random things and claiming they're "all about weapons", when they're not. If I tried to answer specifically to what you wrote and then you just skip right over it just to make another vague list of stuff then what's even the point.

    How is it random all of the things I list are important. The metabattle list shows that every build uses discipline in pvp , wvw and pve builds on other professions can go for other traitlines, thief for pve does not use trickery(even though they kitten around with ini cost and getting the 2 bonus ini baseline at this point is probably for the better to don't kitten with the internal clock on people), guardian no virtues on most pve builds . There isn't a good build without discipline straight and simple, warrior is about hitting kitten with sticks, you have 2 sticks and each stick is made from something different and when you get angry you hit them differently, Discipline lets you swap the sticks more often and lets you get angry more often, all of the skills on warrior are either set up to smack someone with a stick or to protect you while waking someone with a stick. There aren't many sticks that can camp for 10 seconds or more and those that can camp have their traits in discipline. It is quite simple warrior is defined by weapon bar the most, and discipline lets you use it properly and there is another traitline that can exchange it to change up the playstyle while keeping the flow. The line is mandatory witch kitten with theory craft on warrior. Almost all professions have builds that can be defined with their utility skills traps, wells, spirits, minions, gyros warrior is pigeonholed on its weapons, which is not bad per say just that it lacks options with using them.
    To your question I play all professions but my personal preference are the full contact ones over the hit and run ones, I play the odd thief here and there but it the proper way of playing it really clashes with my fun of fighting . Does this answer your question of "Do you even play BRO?" ?
    I go out of my way to write why I believe something works the way it is with examples for proof and all I get is "nahh its not like that" with some vague hearsay, if I'm wrong explain why and how with examples "I feel its wrong" doesn't fly with me.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2021

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    It seems you're just throwing anything you can think of regardless of whether or not it's true, but lets go through things you've listed to show how I feel about them:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    5 Sec cooldown on swap is just necessary imo. It should have been baseline long ago.

    It's not "necessary", it's "strong" -and it would be for any other class as well. :D If anything "strong"/"optimal"/"meta" is classified as "necessary" and automatically somehow is a reason to make it baseline then we end up with one build per class and no trait system.

    (...I guess it's this time of the year again :p )

    The thing is Warrior has Burst skills as main mechanic and they are tied to the weapon you are wielding

    Yes, the burst skills are the only thing that are somewhat connected to weapon swap imo. But they still have 8sec icd, so that connection is still sort of limited.

    for the other classes it doesn't matter weapon you are wielding to cast your special mechanic so the 5 s swap gives you the ability to use it when needed ,

    For some more than the other, but the weapon swap is still effectively as good as a 4 (I'm not counting 1 here, might be worth counting for swapping between melee/range weapons, where that range will make difference, in some cases more than in other) skillbar toggle. Those skills have their utility and the more free you are to swap between them without being bound to the entire skillset for 9 seconds, the better you can use their potential. Right? This is the primary reason I say lowering weaponswap cd is strong for pretty much any class regardless of their mechanics.

    like the other classes, also warrior doesn't have much room with skills ,

    That might be somewhat true in some cases, but in general... I'm not sure about that.

    the utilities are supplementary and most of the power on warrior comes from Weapons

    The utilities are exactly like you pick them. If you pick active skills, they're active. If you pick passive skills... they'll be passive/supplementary (but I'm not sure if I understand what exactly you mean by "supplementary"? Isn't this the case for most classes/builds?). Warrior isn't really so different in this aspect in comparison to other professions.

    and almost all sets are tuned to be swapped on 5 seconds.

    This seems mostly false to me?

    All of the tuning on warrior over the years has been made with Discipline being always taken even though the traits on it are really basic they make warrior work. Imagine if thief had to take some traitline so it can use stealth attacks or dual wield attacks.

    Sorry, but is warrior, by any chance, the only class you play? This (having a go-to spec) is the case for a lot classes and by bringing up thief as a comparison you basically shoot yourself in the foot ;p Not only that, but claming that warrior without disci is somehow locked out of mechanics is a huge stretch if not straight up false. Sure, warrior is strong with disci, but it's because disci offers a lot of utility and passive power.

    Look at this https://metabattle.com/wiki/Warrior every build uses Discipline I checked them even expected to not see it on some WvW builds but nope it is in there.

    I don't know what this is supposed to be answering to and how does it change anything I wrote above?

    Both of the elite specks on warrior are all about bursts, there isn't much room to wiggle on warrior with the build craft. I used as an example Thief since it has multiple special mechanics that come out of the box without the need to trait for them, stealth attacks, dual wield, the energy system that lets you use skills without cd, steal and stolen items.

    Warrior doesn't need any spec to use the burst skills, let alone discipline, not sure what that's about.
    Pretty much every competitive thief build is cornered into trickery btw, right? Time to make it baseline.

    Lets use another profession then Guardian, virtues and the elite versions are not that defining and has variety of builds all the time without the need for the Virtues traitline

    ...discipline isn't "defining" either. And every guard build seems to be using virtues. Looks about the same to me, the main difference being: you only play warrior, so if the same situation takes place in another class then it doesn't matter "because I said so and my class deserves making strongest traits into innate profession passive effects". It really seems this is all it is about. In the end discipline has much more synergy with itself than it has with warrior as a class.

    Almost all of the utilities on warrior are there to help it use its weapons better, there is no trap something well something to define a build it is always weapons.

    No, it's not. Maybe it is for the triats you're using, but it's not a general rule. I also don't understand how "trap/well" has any relevance here?

    When you look at all the utilities you can see that rage, meditations, stances and physical skills are all about making weapons work better and then you have shouts and banners which are about support force you to use weapons to defend yourself or in PVE do more dps so you dip into discipline.

    What are you even talking about here? "shouts and banners which are about support force you to use weapons to defend yourself"? What? Physical skills are "all about making weapons work"? Some of those skills have as much utility as you could ask from a utility skill, not sure what you're complaining about here. Stances are just stances with varrying effects, it's similar for some of the other classes. Meditations also have varying offensive/defensive/utility effects, not sure how it's somehow "all about weapons" here. Pretty similarly with rage. You're stretching this whole thing pretty thin here...

    Anyways, it would be better if you just answered to what I wrote before in the responseto your initial post instead of trying to list random things and claiming they're "all about weapons", when they're not. If I tried to answer specifically to what you wrote and then you just skip right over it just to make another vague list of stuff then what's even the point.

    How is it random all of the things I list are important.

    Linking metabattle changes nothing about what I said there or about your initial claims that I found and still find mostly false. Maybe start with actually responding to my first response to you, not sure how else to say it.

    Ah and about this:

    I go out of my way to write why I believe something works the way it is with examples for proof and all I get is "nahh its not like that" with some vague hearsay, if I'm wrong explain why and how with examples "I feel its wrong" doesn't fly with me.

    Notice how I answered that to the things where you didn't give any examples or specifics, but instead just some vague claims:
    1. "like the other classes, also warrior doesn't have much room with skills ," -what is this even supposed to mean??
    2. "and almost all sets are tuned to be swapped on 5 seconds." -how?
    How are those claims specifics "with examples for proof"? Maybe re-read your first post with my answers and you'll see that there's barely any specifics at all, mostly all you did there was providing a random list of vague claims. By far not what you NOW claim you said there. But no problem, if "my feelings don't fly with you", next time I respond to your vague claims, I'll just decide they're false until you come up with specifics supporting those exact same statements. Which just linking metabattle definitely isn't.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    It seems you're just throwing anything you can think of regardless of whether or not it's true, but lets go through things you've listed to show how I feel about them:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    5 Sec cooldown on swap is just necessary imo. It should have been baseline long ago.

    It's not "necessary", it's "strong" -and it would be for any other class as well. :D If anything "strong"/"optimal"/"meta" is classified as "necessary" and automatically somehow is a reason to make it baseline then we end up with one build per class and no trait system.

    (...I guess it's this time of the year again :p )

    The thing is Warrior has Burst skills as main mechanic and they are tied to the weapon you are wielding

    Yes, the burst skills are the only thing that are somewhat connected to weapon swap imo. But they still have 8sec icd, so that connection is still sort of limited.

    for the other classes it doesn't matter weapon you are wielding to cast your special mechanic so the 5 s swap gives you the ability to use it when needed ,

    For some more than the other, but the weapon swap is still effectively as good as a 4 (I'm not counting 1 here, might be worth counting for swapping between melee/range weapons, where that range will make difference, in some cases more than in other) skillbar toggle. Those skills have their utility and the more free you are to swap between them without being bound to the entire skillset for 9 seconds, the better you can use their potential. Right? This is the primary reason I say lowering weaponswap cd is strong for pretty much any class regardless of their mechanics.

    like the other classes, also warrior doesn't have much room with skills ,

    That might be somewhat true in some cases, but in general... I'm not sure about that.

    the utilities are supplementary and most of the power on warrior comes from Weapons

    The utilities are exactly like you pick them. If you pick active skills, they're active. If you pick passive skills... they'll be passive/supplementary (but I'm not sure if I understand what exactly you mean by "supplementary"? Isn't this the case for most classes/builds?). Warrior isn't really so different in this aspect in comparison to other professions.

    and almost all sets are tuned to be swapped on 5 seconds.

    This seems mostly false to me?

    All of the tuning on warrior over the years has been made with Discipline being always taken even though the traits on it are really basic they make warrior work. Imagine if thief had to take some traitline so it can use stealth attacks or dual wield attacks.

    Sorry, but is warrior, by any chance, the only class you play? This (having a go-to spec) is the case for a lot classes and by bringing up thief as a comparison you basically shoot yourself in the foot ;p Not only that, but claming that warrior without disci is somehow locked out of mechanics is a huge stretch if not straight up false. Sure, warrior is strong with disci, but it's because disci offers a lot of utility and passive power.

    Look at this https://metabattle.com/wiki/Warrior every build uses Discipline I checked them even expected to not see it on some WvW builds but nope it is in there.

    I don't know what this is supposed to be answering to and how does it change anything I wrote above?

    Both of the elite specks on warrior are all about bursts, there isn't much room to wiggle on warrior with the build craft. I used as an example Thief since it has multiple special mechanics that come out of the box without the need to trait for them, stealth attacks, dual wield, the energy system that lets you use skills without cd, steal and stolen items.

    Warrior doesn't need any spec to use the burst skills, let alone discipline, not sure what that's about.
    Pretty much every competitive thief build is cornered into trickery btw, right? Time to make it baseline.

    Lets use another profession then Guardian, virtues and the elite versions are not that defining and has variety of builds all the time without the need for the Virtues traitline

    ...discipline isn't "defining" either. And every guard build seems to be using virtues. Looks about the same to me, the main difference being: you only play warrior, so if the same situation takes place in another class then it doesn't matter "because I said so and my class deserves making strongest traits into innate profession passive effects". It really seems this is all it is about. In the end discipline has much more synergy with itself than it has with warrior as a class.

    Almost all of the utilities on warrior are there to help it use its weapons better, there is no trap something well something to define a build it is always weapons.

    No, it's not. Maybe it is for the triats you're using, but it's not a general rule. I also don't understand how "trap/well" has any relevance here?

    When you look at all the utilities you can see that rage, meditations, stances and physical skills are all about making weapons work better and then you have shouts and banners which are about support force you to use weapons to defend yourself or in PVE do more dps so you dip into discipline.

    What are you even talking about here? "shouts and banners which are about support force you to use weapons to defend yourself"? What? Physical skills are "all about making weapons work"? Some of those skills have as much utility as you could ask from a utility skill, not sure what you're complaining about here. Stances are just stances with varrying effects, it's similar for some of the other classes. Meditations also have varying offensive/defensive/utility effects, not sure how it's somehow "all about weapons" here. Pretty similarly with rage. You're stretching this whole thing pretty thin here...

    Anyways, it would be better if you just answered to what I wrote before in the responseto your initial post instead of trying to list random things and claiming they're "all about weapons", when they're not. If I tried to answer specifically to what you wrote and then you just skip right over it just to make another vague list of stuff then what's even the point.

    How is it random all of the things I list are important.

    Linking metabattle changes nothing about what I said there or about your initial claims that I found and still find mostly false. Maybe start with actually responding to my first response to you, not sure how else to say it.

    Ah and about this:

    I go out of my way to write why I believe something works the way it is with examples for proof and all I get is "nahh its not like that" with some vague hearsay, if I'm wrong explain why and how with examples "I feel its wrong" doesn't fly with me.

    Notice how I answered that to the things where you didn't give any examples or specifics, but instead just some vague claims:
    1. "like the other classes, also warrior doesn't have much room with skills ," -what is this even supposed to mean??
    2. "and almost all sets are tuned to be swapped on 5 seconds." -how?
    How are those claims specifics "with examples for proof"?

    And back to circles again, the claim is that Discipline is mandatory and some stuff can be baselined like some mechanics on other classes, I show the site that used to measure the supposed best builds for warrior on all game modes I can pull more sites that show the same builds, you can use the way back machine and see that the builds on warrior always use discipline, not because it has some big deeps multipliers but because it makes the gameplay flow better all the while it changes the gameplay loop to a level that can separate warrior from the other professions with something simple yet special.
    Warrior has 17 skills 18 on elites all of the skills are on quick use you press it does something its over so there isn't much room to sit around and wait for 10 seconds for weapons swap, there is no in between cds like for example necro, all of the weapons on warrior complete their combo in 5 seconds or less and then you burst and then you switch since the basic attacks on almost all weapons are not that great to supplement a 10 second weapon switch , there is exception like axe axe which can be ran for longer but the trait for it is in discipline. Lets take ele for an example it has 4 sets of weapon skills, both ele and warrior work generally the same on cooldowns but warrior has a loop of two sets on short cd while ele has 4 loops on 10 second cd, so warrior can compete with ele even though it has less options to work with. Lets say we have a traitline that gives you the option to have 4 sets of weapons on 10s cd like ele does that could compete with discipline but there is no such thing so you either run discipline or you don't reach your mechanical potential. Why a 5s weapons switch, the walls of text I wrote and the fact that traitline combinations without discipline do not work well even for PVE since you end up with dead zones of tempo where you just hit basic attacks that are not really that good and for PVP you end up with a 5 second gap without anything to retaliate with .
    I still haven't heard why I'm wrong , and I'm getting tired of explaining how the simplest profession in the game works.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2021

    It's not mandatory, it's just a strong choice. A trait being strong to the point you want to take it all the time isn't an argument to make it baseline, but it sure can be an argument to nerf it.

    And asking you about specifics on some of your vague -and for now seemingly false- claims isn't "going in circles".

    it makes the gameplay flow better

    No way that having more freedom by not being locked into a weaponset for 9 seconds "makes the gameplay flow better"? It's almost as if that would be true for other classes as well because it's just objectively strong due to how this game works by connecting skillbar with separate cds to weapon swap?!

    Your claim that warrior's weapons are somehow "tuned around 5 second swap" is as false as it was the first time you mentioned it.
    Your claim about warrior utilities just being "tied to weapons" (or something? <.<) is also false (or as true as for most other classes).
    Burst skills still have icd, so you can't keep casting them every 5 seconds. (unless... you know... you pick disci anyways)

    Overally I'm still waiting for you to respond specifically to what I wrote above instead of just comming up with a new blob of text throwing whatever you can regardless of most of these things being either false or universally true for most of the other classes in hopes that something sticks. Literally quote a single thing and respond to it. Quote another and respond. Specifically, so I can finally understand what you're responding to.

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2021

    It IS mandatory. A warri with a 10 sec weap swap has more chance as a warri with a 5 sec weap swap. Its not that hard to figure out whats better to use.

    E.g, warri with and a warri without disc dueling each other,who will win ? In the case of losing disc it should be pretty kitten obvious. Because the warri without will be stuck trying to avoid damage or only relying on auto's for the remaining 5 sec.

    I play this game since 2012,warri was my main. A warri without disc is a fail vs proper players.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2021

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    It IS mandatory. A warri with a 10 sec weap swap has less chance as a warri with a 5 sec weap swap. Its not that hard to figure out whats better to use.

    E.g, warri with and a warri without disc dueling each other,who will win ? In the case of losing disc its pretty kitten obvious.

    Take a meta pvp build from any class and put it against a non-meta build of the same class. Who will win? Take war without str or without spellbreaker spec and put it against the usual one, who will win? What is this supposed to prove? That more optimized pvp build is more optimal than less optimized? So I guess put all of those traits as baseline, because it's stronger than it would be without them?
    ...aaand also true for many other classes btw

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2021

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    5 Sec cooldown on swap is just necessary imo. It should have been baseline long ago.

    No, it shouldn't be baseline long ago or now ... for many reasons.

    Just in case anyone thinks this hasn't been discussed ... I've got your covered:

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72573/discipline-more-specifically-fast-hands/p1

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    It's not mandatory, it's just a strong choice. A trait being strong to the point you want to take it all the time isn't an argument to make it baseline, but it sure can be an argument to nerf it.

    Absolutely. People need to be careful how they justify things. Also something discussed in the posted link.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2021

    You dont have me covered. Ive played Warri for thousands of hours,i actually know what im talking about. I dont give a kitten what other people say based on my own experiences.

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2021

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    It IS mandatory. A warri with a 10 sec weap swap has less chance as a warri with a 5 sec weap swap. Its not that hard to figure out whats better to use.

    E.g, warri with and a warri without disc dueling each other,who will win ? In the case of losing disc its pretty kitten obvious.

    Take a meta pvp build from any class and put it against a non-meta build of the same class. Who will win? Take war without str or without spellbreaker spec and put it against the usual one, who will win? What is this supposed to prove? That more optimized pvp build is more optimal than less optimized? So I guess put all of those traits as baseline, because it's stronger than it would be without them?
    ...aaand also true for many other classes btw

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    It IS mandatory. A warri with a 10 sec weap swap has less chance as a warri with a 5 sec weap swap. Its not that hard to figure out whats better to use.

    E.g, warri with and a warri without disc dueling each other,who will win ? In the case of losing disc its pretty kitten obvious.

    Take a meta pvp build from any class and put it against a non-meta build of the same class. Who will win? Take war without str or without spellbreaker spec and put it against the usual one, who will win? What is this supposed to prove? That more optimized pvp build is more optimal than less optimized? So I guess put all of those traits as baseline, because it's stronger than it would be without them?
    ...aaand also true for many other classes btw

    The kitten are you even on about ? My comment is solely about the 5 sec weap swap. Ive had hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of duels against other warris. A warri without 5 sec swap Will be in a disadvantage,in every situation.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2021

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    You dont have me covered. Ive played Warri for thousands of hours,i actually know what im talking about. I dont dont give a kitten what other people say based on my own experiences.

    If you want to justify Fast Hands as baseline, then give us a reason we can talk about that isn't "I've played THIS long and I just know things you don't". I'm just saying whatever reason you can come up with ... I bet it's been addressed in that thread.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2021

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    You dont have me covered. Ive played Warri for thousands of hours,i actually know what im talking about. I dont dont give a kitten what other people say based on my own experiences.

    If you want to justify Fast Hands as baseline, then give us a reason we can talk about that isn't "I've played THIS long and I just know things you don't". I'm just saying whatever reason you can come up with ... I bet it's been addressed in that thread.

    Youre not making much sense.

    I already gave reasons as why to,im not about to repeat myself. Or do you want to ignore the examples i gave ?

    It kinda says enough that you think that a 10 sec weap swap is not inferior to a 5 sec though.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2021

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    It IS mandatory. A warri with a 10 sec weap swap has less chance as a warri with a 5 sec weap swap. Its not that hard to figure out whats better to use.

    E.g, warri with and a warri without disc dueling each other,who will win ? In the case of losing disc its pretty kitten obvious.

    Take a meta pvp build from any class and put it against a non-meta build of the same class. Who will win? Take war without str or without spellbreaker spec and put it against the usual one, who will win? What is this supposed to prove? That more optimized pvp build is more optimal than less optimized? So I guess put all of those traits as baseline, because it's stronger than it would be without them?
    ...aaand also true for many other classes btw

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    It IS mandatory. A warri with a 10 sec weap swap has less chance as a warri with a 5 sec weap swap. Its not that hard to figure out whats better to use.

    E.g, warri with and a warri without disc dueling each other,who will win ? In the case of losing disc its pretty kitten obvious.

    Take a meta pvp build from any class and put it against a non-meta build of the same class. Who will win? Take war without str or without spellbreaker spec and put it against the usual one, who will win? What is this supposed to prove? That more optimized pvp build is more optimal than less optimized? So I guess put all of those traits as baseline, because it's stronger than it would be without them?
    ...aaand also true for many other classes btw

    The kitten are you even on about ? My comment is solely about the 5 sec weap swap.

    This is what I directly responded to: "the claim is that Discipline is mandatory "
    I said: "it's not mandatory, it's a strong choice"
    You said: "it is mandatory".
    ...actually you even literally wrote this in your post: "E.g, warri with and a warri without disc dueling each other".

    So, um... That's "what I'm about".

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    It's not mandatory, it's just a strong choice. A trait being strong to the point you want to take it all the time isn't an argument to make it baseline, but it sure can be an argument to nerf it.

    And asking you about specifics on some of your vague -and for now seemingly false- claims isn't "going in circles".

    it makes the gameplay flow better

    No way that having more freedom by not being locked into a weaponset for 9 seconds "makes the gameplay flow better"? It's almost as if that would be true for other classes as well because it's just objectively strong due to how this game works by connecting skillbar with separate cds to weapon swap?!

    Your claim that warrior's weapons are somehow "tuned around 5 second swap" is as false as it was the first time you mentioned it.
    Your claim about warrior utilities just being "tied to weapons" (or something? <.<) is also false (or as true as for most other classes).
    Burst skills still have icd, so you can't keep casting them every 5 seconds. (unless... you know... you pick disci anyways)

    Overally I'm still waiting for you to respond specifically to what I wrote above instead of just comming up with a new blob of text throwing whatever you can regardless of most of these things being either false or universally true for most of the other classes in hopes that something sticks. Literally quote a single thing and respond to it. Quote another and respond. Specifically, so I can finally understand what you're responding to.

    Several pages of explanation why the kitten discipline is mandatory and he says I haven't read a why. It is not a strong choice it is the only choice there is no alternative traitline that lets you use your skills, if you remove discipline warrior becomes worse Ranger at best, the whole point of the 5 second swap is to let you use Burst skills on demand since you have 2 and the game has been balanced and reworked with that in mind. Lets take GS for example, on guardian you have several skills that combo with each other you pull you drop the seal on the ground you spin and you even cleanse conditions from people, lets take warrior gs well it doesn't combo with itself very well does it you need cc to land thousand blades, but the gs does not have hard cc you either take cc utility or you take a cc weapon.
    All other classes do not have a trait that lets them swap weapons fast so their weapons are designed to be used for 10 seconds the exceptions are engi and weaver, engi has kits no cd on them and on holo it has holoforge which also has 5 second cd between uses, and weaver has 5 second attune to mix elements which its main mechanic you know their 3 skill basically burst skill, both of these come baseline with the elite.
    By just existing the 5 second swap Arenanet has to take it into consideration every time buff or nerf a weapon set so the weapons, and that has happened from the start of the game. The most ironic thing that I mentioned is that the one weapon set that is not hindered by slow weapon swap is the axe axe which has its trait in Discipline . If warrior was not designed with 5 second swap why would berserker have 5 second cd on bursts.
    Lets talk about the utilities, other classes have standalone skills that function without the need of a weapon to follow through warrior does not have such skills.
    False is not an argument without proper explanation. You are asking why 5 second swap is good and am saying that the whole Discipline traitline is mandatory cause there is no other traitline that can allow warrior to be on equal ground as the rest of the classes in ALL modes, since you cannot reach their average performance without it, the 5 second swap might help ARMs take the slot or the other option is to define Discipline as the power option and arms as the condition option and rework the condition weapons to be good without the need of discipline.
    The big gripe here is that there isn't much room for theory crafting on warrior since the slot will always be taken by Discipline which leaves only 2 slots to work with and usually one goes for the elite.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2021

    Let's try a different approach:

    WHY does FH need to be baseline? What problem are you trying to solve doing that?

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    You dont have me covered. Ive played Warri for thousands of hours,i actually know what im talking about. I dont dont give a kitten what other people say based on my own experiences.

    If you want to justify Fast Hands as baseline, then give us a reason we can talk about that isn't "I've played THIS long and I just know things you don't". I'm just saying whatever reason you can come up with ... I bet it's been addressed in that thread.

    Youre not making much sense.

    NO, that's not fair ... I'm making LOTS of sense ... there isn't anything nonsensical about asking for a reason why this should be baseline.

    I already gave reasons as why to,im not about to repeat myself.

    That's perfect because examples aren't reasons to make FH baseline. I'm not asking you to give me scenarios where FH is advantageous.

    It kinda says enough that you think that a 10 sec weap swap is not inferior to a 5 sec though.

    5 being better than 10 isn't a reason to change it. Just being better isn't a reason to change ANYTHING.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This has become quite the discussion.

    Discipline isn't what is mandatory, Fast Hands is. The shorter weapon swap should have been built into warrior like dual attacks and initiative were for Thief. I can guarantee that if Fast Hands was made baseline that there would be more build diversity. Many warriors would not feel that they HAVE to run Discipline if FH were baseline.

    Now do I run Discipline every time I play? No. Sometimes it is worth taking another traitline. Like Str/Tact/Berz or Str/Tact/SpB. But then I've been running Rifle alot lately and it can pew pew the entire 10s I'm stuck in it.