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perm stealth

so is anet ever gonna get rid of the perma thiefs in wvw or too busy making up next excuse not to improve wvw? dont worry people alliance will be soon and it will be great

<13456

Comments

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    How would you go about getting rid of it without getting rid of thief too? The less complicated the better. The less band aid the better.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Galmac.4680Galmac.4680 Member ✭✭✭

    You don't have to get rid of thiefs, just restrict their stealth to perhaps 30s (without being visible for at least one or a few seconds) and then they can't stealth for perhaps 10s, or something.

    Praise Joko! And make necros great again!

  • Galmac.4680Galmac.4680 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Still in favor of a system where for every second you are in stealth, you cant stealth for a second (debuff that cannot be negated). Adds up over time, doesnt matter if in combat or not.

    So if a thief want to stealth for a minute, he can... but as soon as he no longer stealth or attack, he cant stealth for a minute.

    Which should be capped to some maximum!

    Praise Joko! And make necros great again!

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Galmac.4680 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Still in favor of a system where for every second you are in stealth, you cant stealth for a second (debuff that cannot be negated). Adds up over time, doesnt matter if in combat or not.

    So if a thief want to stealth for a minute, he can... but as soon as he no longer stealth or attack, he cant stealth for a minute.

    Which should be capped to some maximum!

    If a thief can stealth for 10 minutes straight, great what a pro dagger leaper. But he then cant stealth for 10 minutes lol. And the debuff would of course remain even if you log out (like food, not like boons).

    The point is to weigh the time you are in stealth vs the cost. So I would argue no cap for such an idea.

    I like the idea, but I would rather have it capped at 10s max, since we have build templates so it's possible that they'd stack 30s+ stealth and then switch to evasive build seconds before engage.

  • Handin.4032Handin.4032 Member ✭✭✭

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
    I would be happy with just using an attack reveals them. Pretty annoying to have a thief, engi, ranger etc open with a burst from stealth and me to predict when it's coming and dodge it or counter it with a block.....Only to have them remain in stealth? This is one of my only complaints about stealth, sorry, this should not be a try burst, fail, never be revealed, reset, wait for CD and try again.

    It's so ridiculous to see a full rapid fire etc coming out of thin air 1,500+ range away hitting shelter "block, block, block, block" and just standing there waiting for something to actually target and fight. If they use a skill that misses, blinded, blocked etc etc it should still reveal the player.

    ^ This. It's how stealth has worked in every other game I've played. Also, taking damage (or even healing others) doesn't knock you out of stealth. Maybe in gw2 because the amount of AOE this would be too restrictive then? (Unless they set it to some damage threshold). This is why stealth is high-reward, low-risk. If you're in stealth and you miss your burst, you're still in stealth - even if they turn and do a bunch of AoE. With the mobility of most thieves, it only compounds this. Stealth should be high-risk, high-reward. Not "spam attacks while invisible and untargettable, and if you miss oh wells just try again!"

    (Just to be clear, too, as Scrapper you can abuse stealth a lot by healing and cleansing and reviving people while in stealth, as well... I have personally revived lords this way, while taking damage - just start the revive before you take the 1st tick).

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There's no fixing it now without redesigning the thief class, but having so much stealth access that isn't tied to any sort of cooldown (e.g. combo fields, initiative-based weapon skills) is an awful design. It's obnoxious to fight against even if thief is no threat at all. This should never have been a thing in competitive modes. Too much stealth. Too much mobility. Just let us fight, will you!?

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Perm stealth? Is stealth so op now it lets you use a hair style kit on other players?

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Have an opacity filter range for non team proximity and a Stealth Attack window starting at full stealth application like Cloak and Dagger or not in proximity with leap combos.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They simply dont know how to fix the whole stealth/reveal system at all. With this, they wont bother with that topic.

    Perm stealth is at a point, where it should be considered as exploiting.

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Have stealth skills overlap rather than stack, like superspeed.
    Exceptions can be certain skills on a case-by-case that are intended to stack. (Shadow refuge, sneak gyro etc.) There's already a cloaking mechanic, (camouflage?), separate from stealth, use that for the handful of pulsing skills.
    Blasting stealth fields could grant a flat 6s of stealth that can't be increased beyond that. (Further blasts just reset the timer.)
    Increase base stealth durations on thief skills, halve all durations to anyone in combat (so blasting in combat would be 3 seconds) to discourage "resetting", remove the sentry mark debuff's ability to reveal (but still mark them on the minimap.) Remove DE's ability to peel a reveal.

    ~ Kovu

    Ranger, Necromancer, Fort Aspenwood.

  • TinkTinkPOOF.9201TinkTinkPOOF.9201 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Handin.4032 said:

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
    I would be happy with just using an attack reveals them. Pretty annoying to have a thief, engi, ranger etc open with a burst from stealth and me to predict when it's coming and dodge it or counter it with a block.....Only to have them remain in stealth? This is one of my only complaints about stealth, sorry, this should not be a try burst, fail, never be revealed, reset, wait for CD and try again.

    It's so ridiculous to see a full rapid fire etc coming out of thin air 1,500+ range away hitting shelter "block, block, block, block" and just standing there waiting for something to actually target and fight. If they use a skill that misses, blinded, blocked etc etc it should still reveal the player.

    ^ This. It's how stealth has worked in every other game I've played. Also, taking damage (or even healing others) doesn't knock you out of stealth. Maybe in gw2 because the amount of AOE this would be too restrictive then? (Unless they set it to some damage threshold). This is why stealth is high-reward, low-risk. If you're in stealth and you miss your burst, you're still in stealth - even if they turn and do a bunch of AoE. With the mobility of most thieves, it only compounds this. Stealth should be high-risk, high-reward. Not "spam attacks while invisible and untargettable, and if you miss oh wells just try again!"

    (Just to be clear, too, as Scrapper you can abuse stealth a lot by healing and cleansing and reviving people while in stealth, as well... I have personally revived lords this way, while taking damage - just start the revive before you take the 1st tick).

    There is a middle ground for this, being hit doesn't need to reveal, it only needs to show dmg indicators like all other combat, having to keep combat logs open is just stupid, there is no reason for dmg floaters to be removed when hitting someone in stealth. You know you are hitting something, even if you can't see them, so if they dodge or port etc etc they are still in stealth and can get away.

    I think these "buggy" feeling mechanics are what make people hate stealth the most. I think fixing some of these would put stealth in a better place and doesn't kill off the many builds that use stealth because one or two almost 100% stealth uptime builds exist. The other issue I have is DE with reveal remove ability......Why? Stealth is a powerful if not one of the most powerful mechanics in the game and has both offensive and defensive use. Like with block, we have unblockable skills and traits as counters....Where is my unblockable block? Having a counter to a counter is stupid when most classes don't have reveal in a functioning build and the ones who do are VERY short duration and very long CD and often require a target and can still be dodged etc. When you reveal one of these builds, this is just about the ONLY time you have to target and hit them, they also still have all their evasion, ports, blinds, blocks etc etc still, but no, lets give them a skill with 2 charges that not only removes reveal but also gives them stealth, with only a 45 sec CD.

    "When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease." -Exedore

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kovu.7560 has a decent idea but that won't necessarily stop permastealth. People just need to space out their stealth applications more carefully (I would add that splitting the duration timer in/out of combat may not be easily technically feasible).

    I'd also mention that there aren't that many permastealth thieves out there. For one, it takes a lot of effort (unless doing a group coordinated effort) and it rarely has that much pay off outside of helping set up an opener on unsuspecting opponents.

    I suspect a lot of complaints about permastealth are from people who fought thieves who stealthed for variable periods of time and then killed them. But, because they couldn't know how much stealth the thief had access to they had no idea if the thief was able to permanently stealth or would have been forced to be visible for a while if the fight had lasted half a minute longer.

    But, ultimately permastealth comes down to cheap Heart Seeker through smoke fields. Anet doesn't mind that kind of permastealth because you can see the combo field and try to damage them or force them out of the field. Same is true for Shadow Refuge. They also increased the cooldown on Smoke Screen so people can't individually use it too often.

    Want an actual and simple fix to permastealth? Nerf the stealth duration from smoke combo finishers.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    make revealed last longer and not able to be removed

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Bristingr.5034Bristingr.5034 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Galmac.4680 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Still in favor of a system where for every second you are in stealth, you cant stealth for a second (debuff that cannot be negated). Adds up over time, doesnt matter if in combat or not.

    So if a thief want to stealth for a minute, he can... but as soon as he no longer stealth or attack, he cant stealth for a minute.

    Which should be capped to some maximum!

    If a thief can stealth for 10 minutes straight, great what a pro dagger leaper. But he then cant stealth for 10 minutes lol. And the debuff would of course remain even if you log out (like food, not like boons).

    The point is to weigh the time you are in stealth vs the cost. So I would argue no cap for such an idea.

    Okay. EZ. Stealth, set portal, run out of keep, wait out the invis penalty, port back in, repeat.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Change stealth while inside enemy towers/keeps/castles into the treasure mushroom stealth.

    You are technically stealthed, meaning that you get the benefits of traits/stealth attacks/etc. But you stay visible for the enemy players and can get targeted, so you can't hide to teleport enemies in once people have left.

  • Zeesh.7286Zeesh.7286 Member ✭✭✭

    I'll be happy if they put a modifier where if you went stealth, you can't go out of combat for like 15 secs or something after getting out of stealth and you can never go out of combat while you're in stealth.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    perma stealth is a good valid content for specific class. Can it be improved to keep invisible more logner ? Ofc yes. Because now you nees actively press buttons to keep it. Aslo some damage can be increased for thief, for help more faster kill someone near blob, and run after.

    More better have one buton - press is - and be in stealth all time.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    Yeah guys really sucks thief isnt a easy kill free bag in wvw emiright, also sucks their great roamers consideringits the one thing they excel at in wvw cuz the definitely arnt a zerg class. The only feasible suggestion in this thread is thief should be revealed on any attack attempt failed or not. I could also see thief stealth having a 10 sec restackable stealth cap. A lot of the suggested changes would delete the entire class which im sure many would love, at least until the realized how many players left the game due to such changes and the population is already struggling in this mmo. To add thief would need a significant buff in burst damage, sustained damage/survivability if stealth was nerfed to the degree most want, which is why in every MMO forum there's players complaining about the rogue class and its stealth.
    Be thankful in gw2 to achieve any long duration stealth it requires constant active upkeep resulting in the use of most of the thiefs global resources ie ini. If a thief attacks u after long duration of stealth chances are it has 0 ini or very low (3 or so) ini regenerated by the time its attack occurs.
    We could always give thief infinite duration stealth at click of one button and 0 resources used while out combat combined with 1 or 2 utility stealth skills doing the same while in combat on a balanced cd combined with a burst that takes 75% or more of even high sustain builds hp in one burst instead of the chip damage it does currently lol similar to wow, or even elder scrolls night blade version would be fine with me :)

  • TinkTinkPOOF.9201TinkTinkPOOF.9201 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    We could always give thief infinite duration stealth at click of one button and 0 resources used while out combat combined with 1 or 2 utility stealth kills doing the same while in combat on a balanced cd lol similar to wow, or even elder scrolls night blade version would be fine with me :)

    You could also have a short time limit of stealth application from combos when in combat, or so that you can only combo once, other stealth utility works as normal duration. Out of combat comboing stealth stacking etc would work as it is now (or even longer duration), so you can still setup your engage with enough duration to cover some ground. You could also give the in combat stealth utility longer duration if you are only going to have 2. You can stealth for combat still, but it makes you dedicate to the fight, or leave, it would stop the constant resetting. For me, stealth I can deal with, if the player was forced to remain in the fight or if they decided to bail they have to actually bail like other classes have to.

    Though I am not sure it's needed. I think my first suggestion would fix a good deal of what is annoying about fighting high stealth up time builds, I think most people don't understand how often people spam attacks from stealth that hit a block or miss etc etc. Most people I find on thief and ranger etc are just bad players and this would punish spam play and reward paying attention, I also think if the other player counters something they can't see coming, they should be rewarded by having the stealthed player revealed.

    "When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease." -Exedore

  • Paradoxoglanis.1904Paradoxoglanis.1904 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Players should get revealed if their attack is blocked/evaded. Players should get revealed upon leaving stealth, even if they dont attack anything or enter combat. No more DE being visible for 0.25 seconds while dodging into stealth again. No more thieves getting outplayed and having no penalty for it. Playing thief should actually require skill and not be carried by a poorly balanced mechanic.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    We could always give thief infinite duration stealth at click of one button and 0 resources used while out combat combined with 1 or 2 utility stealth kills doing the same while in combat on a balanced cd lol similar to wow, or even elder scrolls night blade version would be fine with me :)

    You could also have a short time limit of stealth application from combos when in combat, or so that you can only combo once, other stealth utility works as normal duration. Out of combat comboing stealth stacking etc would work as it is now (or even longer duration), so you can still setup your engage with enough duration to cover some ground. You could also give the in combat stealth utility longer duration if you are only going to have 2. You can stealth for combat still, but it makes you dedicate to the fight, or leave, it would stop the constant resetting. For me, stealth I can deal with, if the player was forced to remain in the fight or if they decided to bail they have to actually bail like other classes have to.

    Though I am not sure it's needed. I think my first suggestion would fix a good deal of what is annoying about fighting high stealth up time builds, I think most people don't understand how often people spam attacks from stealth that hit a block or miss etc etc. Most people I find on thief and ranger etc are just bad players and this would punish spam play and reward paying attention, I also think if the other player counters something they can't see coming, they should be rewarded by having the stealthed player revealed.

    Yeah imo reveal on missed burst attempts should have been implemented long ago, even on any skill use aside from utility skills when in combat which would limit thief to 3 secs stealth when doing HS blast field but I'd lower revealed time to 1-1.5 secs when revealed from such where as other causes of reveal would be 3 secs.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @Skada.1362 said:
    you get 5 sec blind per shadowshot which is omegalul op so thieves will be just fine. honestly as SA DP dash you, most of the time, don't even need to stack stealth to obliterate people simply dash around and land shadowshots then heartseekers. auto in black powder gg ez mode.

    "You know that one overperforming build? Well, nerf the whole class and every other build because of this one GG BALANCED OMEGATWITCHEMOTEOVERLOAD"
    oke.

    @Zeesh.7286 said:
    I'll be happy if they put a modifier where if you went stealth, you can't go out of combat for like 15 secs or something after getting out of stealth and you can never go out of combat while you're in stealth.

    Yeah, same with buffs including-but-not-limited-to aegis, healing effects, barriers, dodges and mobility skills. I don't like that someone can spam sustain/mobility skills on their builds and then go out of combat, so slap a random 15 second buffor on all of those as well. Actually lets leave everyone permanently in-combat in wvw and remove the safezones or unplayable, ez fix, everything's balanced.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Skada.1362 said:
    you get 5 sec blind per shadowshot which is omegalul op so thieves will be just fine. honestly as SA DP dash you, most of the time, don't even need to stack stealth to obliterate people simply dash around and land shadowshots then heartseekers. auto in black powder gg ez mode.

    "You know that one overperforming build? Well, nerf the whole class and every other build because of this one GG BALANCED OMEGATWITCHEMOTEOVERLOAD"
    oke.

    @Zeesh.7286 said:
    I'll be happy if they put a modifier where if you went stealth, you can't go out of combat for like 15 secs or something after getting out of stealth and you can never go out of combat while you're in stealth.

    Yeah, same with buffs including-but-not-limited-to aegis, healing effects, barriers, dodges and mobility skills. I don't like that someone can spam sustain/mobility skills on their builds and then go out of combat, so slap a random 15 second buffor on all of those as well. Actually lets leave everyone permanently in-combat in wvw and remove the safezones or unplayable, ez fix, everything's balanced.

    Dp is overpowered? Is it op just on the basis that the rest of the kits have been nerfed to point their not very good. Sd,sp,dd,and staff are all mediocre kits.
    If u actually look at each individual skill in dp compared to other classes most used kits its actually not great. HS does good damage if targets low health, can give stealth in smoke fields, shadowshot does good damage and blinds, headshot is only good at interrupt and its daze is repeatable a few times at 0 damage and .5 daze(lol) and black powder damage isn't great but gives u smoke field for HS. The autos are low damage so basically u have one heavy hitter in SS, one can hit hard if a criteria met with HS, and rest are low damage and not anything special. I feel like dp as a kit greatness is overstated, if wasnt for stealth access it would be gbage in reality.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TheOneWhoSighs.7513 said:
    They'll get rid of it the same day they get rid of the last desert borderland.

    which is never.
    DBL forever.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Salt Mode.3780Salt Mode.3780 Member ✭✭✭

    @Raiden The Beast.3016 said:
    It is okey for us theefs as long as we get moar dmg and much more substain when out of stealth

    Maybe perhaps stop running SA and you will get dmg.

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Many great suggestions from people who never played thief and want to see it destroyed,much wow.

  • Salt Mode.3780Salt Mode.3780 Member ✭✭✭

    the only problem with thief is SA and that is about it anything else is just nonsense.

  • cobbah.3102cobbah.3102 Member ✭✭✭

    Just delete stealth !! problem solved ,simple huh no more complaints

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2021

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Skada.1362 said:
    you get 5 sec blind per shadowshot which is omegalul op so thieves will be just fine. honestly as SA DP dash you, most of the time, don't even need to stack stealth to obliterate people simply dash around and land shadowshots then heartseekers. auto in black powder gg ez mode.

    "You know that one overperforming build? Well, nerf the whole class and every other build because of this one GG BALANCED OMEGATWITCHEMOTEOVERLOAD"
    oke.

    @Zeesh.7286 said:
    I'll be happy if they put a modifier where if you went stealth, you can't go out of combat for like 15 secs or something after getting out of stealth and you can never go out of combat while you're in stealth.

    Yeah, same with buffs including-but-not-limited-to aegis, healing effects, barriers, dodges and mobility skills. I don't like that someone can spam sustain/mobility skills on their builds and then go out of combat, so slap a random 15 second buffor on all of those as well. Actually lets leave everyone permanently in-combat in wvw and remove the safezones or unplayable, ez fix, everything's balanced.

    Dp is overpowered? Is it op just on the basis that the rest of the kits have been nerfed to point their not very good. Sd,sp,dd,and staff are all mediocre kits.
    If u actually look at each individual skill in dp compared to other classes most used kits its actually not great. HS does good damage if targets low health, can give stealth in smoke fields, shadowshot does good damage and blinds, headshot is only good at interrupt and its daze is repeatable a few times at 0 damage and .5 daze(lol) and black powder damage isn't great but gives u smoke field for HS. The autos are low damage so basically u have one heavy hitter in SS, one can hit hard if a criteria met with HS, and rest are low damage and not anything special. I feel like dp as a kit greatness is overstated, if wasnt for stealth access it would be gbage in reality.

    I don't see where I wrote anything about it being overpowered?

    But it is overperforming in relation to the rest of the options, yup.

  • Helicity.3416Helicity.3416 Member ✭✭✭

    Stealth is fine imo, going out of combat in stealth is not.
    Just extend combat timer indefinitely while stealthed and it would be a big improvement.

  • Paradoxoglanis.1904Paradoxoglanis.1904 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    Many great suggestions from people who never played thief and want to see it destroyed,much wow.

    d/p, s/d, s/p, p/d, staff, dont need high stealth uptime to be effective. Its only dumb gimmick builds like SA rifle DE and smoke field spamming bound DD that have completely 1 dimensional gameplay centered around constantly stealthing.

  • Leaa.2943Leaa.2943 Member ✭✭✭

    I would also like to add how obnoxious thief is in WvW outside of combat and hiding in keeps/towers. I never thought i could dislike red border more then i did, but then they gave the thief a portal which just made having red border a freaking pain in the kitten and so unfun that i just don't want to play those weeks.

    Here is why. Not only did they give the thief a portal but since it is a preparation you have no clue if the thief that left the structure have a active portal or not. But wait it gets dumber. When you portal people in you and the people are stealthed. So you can easy get people in without anyone even freaking knowing so. But hey it is only 5 people, sure it is, and then they portal another thief or messmer and bam now you have the blob inside.

    But wait it gets dumber. Since Deadeye have permastealth they can sit in the keep forever. And since we can not sniff a person in stealth we wont see them. Why don't you use stealth traps is probably your next claim, sure we do but this is dessert border and the keeps is so larges that you would litterally have to place thousands of traps to finally get them and since each person can only add 1 trap, yeah good luck with that.

    But sometimes they do get in to the trap and now you have a short few second to get them, but hey you are on the other floor and just going to them and they are in stealth again. All keeps in dessert border have 3-4 levels and being on one side takes you half a min to get to the other. It is a impossible cat/rat game that can go on for hours. And if you actually do this you 1, loose your particiapation and gain no rewards no nothing. 2. It is the most boring thing ever to do. It litterally eat your braincells up and you want to claw your eyes out and you hate red border even more.

    But wait there is more. After a while you feel you gonna die for real if you go on looking so you decide oh well it is 40 min since i saw him last he is "probably" not here anymore. You know he is but you can not just take it anymore so you leave and go and help on the border. 3 min after you see orange crosses in the lord room, and you are at Fire keep and you know you will never make it to Rampart and even if you did, the tactivators is nearly on top of the lord so getting people in will be a slaughter, but hey lets go back to never make it there in time because you dont because all structures and camps goes on contested 30 sec before it show on the map. So camps you can forget because everything is more then 30 sec away structures you might make it unless it is a smaller group because they kill lord faster.

    Next week it is Alpine borderland. Here you have the time to run to all camps all structures and finding thiefs is roughly 99% easier then on red border.

    I have no idea why thiefs god stealth portals and perma stealth. It is the dumbest idea ever made and WvW and how that would play out on red borders can not have been in mind on anyone who came up with this idea. It is a pain, it is unfun and there is zero real counter too it.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Skada.1362 said:
    cap all stealth in game to 3 sec /thread. thieves don't need more than 3 sec at a time to survive, source? SD thieves/blinds. you get 5 sec blind per shadowshot which is omegalul op so thieves will be just fine. honestly as SA DP dash you, most of the time, don't even need to stack stealth to obliterate people simply dash around and land shadowshots then heartseekers. auto in black powder gg ez mode.

    Capping stealth duration is a good idea, but 3 is too low. It also breaks utilities like Shadow Refuge entirely. 6 baseline, and whatever Shadow Refuges max duration is for Shadow Refuge seems reasonable though. Also, you do know that blind is a one-time thing? It being 1 second or 5 second doesnt matter, its why Shadowshots blind is pretty pathetic.

    change the traits that buff stealth in shadow arts to like increased life leech and kitten like that to improve their sustain a bit. ez fix really

    Those don't really matter for thief all that much (or at all), so sure, remove the increased stealth duration and keep only the "when in stealth gain X" traits. Oh and I guess give thief some damage again. Without permastealth oneshots, we dont need to keep their damage down.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Salt Mode.3780 said:

    @Raiden The Beast.3016 said:
    It is okey for us theefs as long as we get moar dmg and much more substain when out of stealth

    Maybe perhaps stop running SA and you will get dmg.

    Spoken like someone who doesnt know thief. Spoiler: SA is the highest damage traitline in its slot. It replaced DA after DA was nerfed so hard that it does less damage than SA. Any other traitline you choose will lower your damage.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2021

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    Many great suggestions from people who never played thief and want to see it destroyed,much wow.

    d/p, s/d, s/p, p/d, staff, dont need high stealth uptime to be effective. Its only dumb gimmick builds like SA rifle DE and smoke field spamming bound DD that have completely 1 dimensional gameplay centered around constantly stealthing.

    How many of the non stealth thief builds are competitive, u see any in mats? Really doesn't matter whether a thief build relies on stealth or not they will always get complained about due to the rogue archetypes design. Sd visble-nerfed it, barely seen these days, sp viable- nerfed it, barely seen these days, staff build-nerfed it, barely seen these days. Those three builds didn't utilize stealth yet when they were viable the non thief players whined until the devs caved and nerfed them. Dagger dagger is gbage for yrs and yrs now. So now dp is used BECAUSE its high stealth access and blinds but without the high stealth if u actually look at each skill in dp kit they are not that great. Hs hits hard if enemy low hp, ss hits hard and blinds, headshot is .5 daze for perfect timing interups(lolz), blinding powder is low damage blind field and lastly autos are weak. Without high stealth access dp would need a full rework to not suck even worse than the other less played kits lol.
    Maybe nerf stealth access but buff the other non stealth kits back up as well. U guys won't like that idea as that still would leave thief in existence lol.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2021

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Salt Mode.3780 said:

    @Raiden The Beast.3016 said:
    It is okey for us theefs as long as we get moar dmg and much more substain when out of stealth

    Maybe perhaps stop running SA and you will get dmg.

    Spoken like someone who doesnt know thief. Spoiler: SA is the highest damage traitline in its slot. It replaced DA after DA was nerfed so hard that it does less damage than SA. Any other traitline you choose will lower your damage.

    Naw man raw damage both DA and CS out damage SA, CS by a large margin. SA is taken more for its small damage gain but huge utility. Damage from venous and leech arnt very great but combine it with the utility the line gives u and it definitely lends to the thief being more prepared for more situations than the other lines especially with the added sustainability with the high stealth access it grants.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Salt Mode.3780 said:

    @Raiden The Beast.3016 said:
    It is okey for us theefs as long as we get moar dmg and much more substain when out of stealth

    Maybe perhaps stop running SA and you will get dmg.

    Spoken like someone who doesnt know thief. Spoiler: SA is the highest damage traitline in its slot. It replaced DA after DA was nerfed so hard that it does less damage than SA. Any other traitline you choose will lower your damage.

    Naw man raw damage both DA and CS out damage SA, CS by a large margin. SA is taken more for its small damage gain but huge utility. Damage from venous and leech arnt very great but combine it with the utility the line gives u and it definitely lends to the thief being more prepared for more situations than the other lines especially with the added sustainability with the high stealth access it grants.

    On paper, but not in practice. In practice you don't get enough condis on the enemy for the Exploit Weakness trait to give you enough damage, and executioner is only active when you dont need the damage anymore. CS would do more damage, but its modifiers are turned inactive way too quickly. Its good on exactly rifle because rifle avoids that issue (which is why Rifle is the only weapon where CS > SA), but on D/P, SA will just do more damage in most scenarios. The damage is not as small as you think, its around 600+ damage that bypasses armour, thats more than what DA will usually do.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Salt Mode.3780 said:

    @Raiden The Beast.3016 said:
    It is okey for us theefs as long as we get moar dmg and much more substain when out of stealth

    Maybe perhaps stop running SA and you will get dmg.

    Spoken like someone who doesnt know thief. Spoiler: SA is the highest damage traitline in its slot. It replaced DA after DA was nerfed so hard that it does less damage than SA. Any other traitline you choose will lower your damage.

    Naw man raw damage both DA and CS out damage SA, CS by a large margin. SA is taken more for its small damage gain but huge utility. Damage from venous and leech arnt very great but combine it with the utility the line gives u and it definitely lends to the thief being more prepared for more situations than the other lines especially with the added sustainability with the high stealth access it grants.

    On paper, but not in practice. In practice you don't get enough condis on the enemy for the Exploit Weakness trait to give you enough damage, and executioner is only active when you dont need the damage anymore. CS would do more damage, but its modifiers are turned inactive way too quickly. Its good on exactly rifle because rifle avoids that issue (which is why Rifle is the only weapon where CS > SA), but on D/P, SA will just do more damage in most scenarios. The damage is not as small as you think, its around 600+ damage that bypasses armour, thats more than what DA will usually do.

    I play CS over SA on both staff and dp dd, on staff for obvious reasons and on dp cuz I prefer high risk high damage playstyle so when i back stab, HS or SS i do almost 1.5-2 x the damage on those bursts with CA than I do on SA. my sustain and utility take a huge hit but I down players far faster. SA provides far less risk for almost as much reward which is over all a better scenario in most situations, I just prefer my skills to be more burst heavy and impact full when the do connect vs the idea of being a bit less impact full but being more dependable as far as connecting.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Salt Mode.3780 said:

    @Raiden The Beast.3016 said:
    It is okey for us theefs as long as we get moar dmg and much more substain when out of stealth

    Maybe perhaps stop running SA and you will get dmg.

    Spoken like someone who doesnt know thief. Spoiler: SA is the highest damage traitline in its slot. It replaced DA after DA was nerfed so hard that it does less damage than SA. Any other traitline you choose will lower your damage.

    Naaah... come on, it's not.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2021

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Salt Mode.3780 said:

    @Raiden The Beast.3016 said:
    It is okey for us theefs as long as we get moar dmg and much more substain when out of stealth

    Maybe perhaps stop running SA and you will get dmg.

    Spoken like someone who doesnt know thief. Spoiler: SA is the highest damage traitline in its slot. It replaced DA after DA was nerfed so hard that it does less damage than SA. Any other traitline you choose will lower your damage.

    Naw man raw damage both DA and CS out damage SA, CS by a large margin. SA is taken more for its small damage gain but huge utility. Damage from venous and leech arnt very great but combine it with the utility the line gives u and it definitely lends to the thief being more prepared for more situations than the other lines especially with the added sustainability with the high stealth access it grants.

    I take DA and CS in my core build but if I wanted to sustain myself and keep pressuring consistently in different scale fights I'd leech and syphon with SA. Some kits push SA into that area where it's going to have to be dealt with, not so much other trait lines. For raw damage when I can't funnel and drag some people I'm with you though, and SA takes a bit of a dive if one or two people can keep tethered to you out of radius, that's just a little hard to do against dagger/pistol.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Salt Mode.3780 said:

    @Raiden The Beast.3016 said:
    It is okey for us theefs as long as we get moar dmg and much more substain when out of stealth

    Maybe perhaps stop running SA and you will get dmg.

    Spoken like someone who doesnt know thief. Spoiler: SA is the highest damage traitline in its slot. It replaced DA after DA was nerfed so hard that it does less damage than SA. Any other traitline you choose will lower your damage.

    Naw man raw damage both DA and CS out damage SA, CS by a large margin. SA is taken more for its small damage gain but huge utility. Damage from venous and leech arnt very great but combine it with the utility the line gives u and it definitely lends to the thief being more prepared for more situations than the other lines especially with the added sustainability with the high stealth access it grants.

    On paper, but not in practice. In practice you don't get enough condis on the enemy for the Exploit Weakness trait to give you enough damage, and executioner is only active when you dont need the damage anymore. CS would do more damage, but its modifiers are turned inactive way too quickly. Its good on exactly rifle because rifle avoids that issue (which is why Rifle is the only weapon where CS > SA), but on D/P, SA will just do more damage in most scenarios. The damage is not as small as you think, its around 600+ damage that bypasses armour, thats more than what DA will usually do.

    I play CS over SA on both staff and dp dd, on staff for obvious reasons and on dp cuz I prefer high risk high damage playstyle so when i back stab, HS or SS i do almost 1.5-2 x the damage on those bursts with CA than I do on SA. my sustain and utility take a huge hit but I down players far faster. SA provides far less risk for almost as much reward which is over all a better scenario in most situations, I just prefer my skills to be more burst heavy and impact full when the do connect vs the idea of being a bit less impact full but being more dependable as far as connecting.

    On Staff SA is worse, given you dont use stealth on it, but thats where you use DA. D/P uses SA, its better. And even best case scenario with CS (which is "none of the modifiers turned off like they usually do), you will at most do roughly 30% more damage, ish. Not 1.5 or 2 times.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Salt Mode.3780 said:

    @Raiden The Beast.3016 said:
    It is okey for us theefs as long as we get moar dmg and much more substain when out of stealth

    Maybe perhaps stop running SA and you will get dmg.

    Spoken like someone who doesnt know thief. Spoiler: SA is the highest damage traitline in its slot. It replaced DA after DA was nerfed so hard that it does less damage than SA. Any other traitline you choose will lower your damage.

    Naw man raw damage both DA and CS out damage SA, CS by a large margin. SA is taken more for its small damage gain but huge utility. Damage from venous and leech arnt very great but combine it with the utility the line gives u and it definitely lends to the thief being more prepared for more situations than the other lines especially with the added sustainability with the high stealth access it grants.

    I take DA and CS in my core build but if I wanted to sustain myself and keep pressuring consistently in different scale fights I'd leech and syphon with SA. Some kits push SA into that area where it's going to have to be dealt with, not so much other trait lines. For raw damage when I can't funnel and drag some people I'm with you though, and SA takes a bit of a dive if one or two people can keep tethered to you out of radius, that's just a little hard to do against dagger/pistol.

    Exactly! SA gives u the utility and sustainability to provide more damage thru being able to stay in the fight longer where as with CS u do more burst but can't stick around to long to continue pressure due to the drop in sustainability and utility.