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Claim buff is killing WvW

Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited April 6, 2021 in WvW

It has been about year since last post so about to bring it up again as claim buff is definitely the biggest "killer" of WvW.

Passive stat buffs are stupid and have no place in competitive gamemode.

Proof
Fighting at friendly camp vs enemy camp is 200 power, 200 precision, 200 toughness, 200 vitality dif.
Damage: 200 power is about 8% damage for power builds but more for minstrel players so it adds up to at least 10%, precision is little less, so lets say 17% total more damage
Survivability: Well 200 vitality is simply 10% more max health for almost all builds, so 10% more survivability, toughness is about the same, so total of 21% more survivability.
Just this stat difference on open field makes it so that there can't exist best guild, roamer or open commander. This removes the reason to play the gamemode for tons of people.

Now imagine you're roaming or blobbing, you beat enemy and then go their camp or tower and try have a nice fight again but there is 17% damage and 21% survivability swing, that is like 2 runesets. Obviously your chance to win the combat drops drastically, no strategy or anything involved. If enemy is competent and don't throw around their skills randomly, the map just ends in a stalemate where each side wins at their corner.

Same difference of 17% damage and 21% survivability is also between having no claim buff and being at enemy keep with presence of the keep, which makes keeps impossible to fight in. This is counter intuitive because the agressor brings something to do for both sides. It also allows people to run useless builds and be outside squad when defending while feeling strong which is big issue for everyone that wants to learn or teach useful builds.

Claim buff wasn't always a thing and it already ruined any competitive scene, whetever it was small scale, guilds, ppting or blobbing. It also makes bandvagoning a necessity if people want to have regular decent, not great because fights will still be semiboring due to stat difference, time in open tags offprime as you can't always rely on enemy to have a group willing to fight you. Time to revive WvW again and remove this disgusting thing.

So what should be done is rework claim buff to something like following, other similar ideas are welcome too:

  • Siege requires 10% less supply to build
  • 25% Out of combat movement speed (removed in combat)
  • Dolyaks have 50% more health (and nerf escort buff 90%->50% to revive dolyak fights again)
  • Siege does 15% more damage to siege
  • Siege despawn timers are 20% longer
  • 20% magic find (unchanged)
  • +5 supply (unchanged)

Doubled with presence of the keep

To make up for lost defending power buff wall/gate health everywhere by 25% and rework shield gen bubbles to not block siege fire and instead pulse damage reduction or something similar. This should buy defenders more time and would make more epic long-term sieges and objective battles.

#removeclaimbuff

<1

Comments

  • Lucio.4190Lucio.4190 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't play WvW, but just looking at the suggestion I feel like the balance would completely turn over to the other side. Removing the buffs for defenders, but adding many for the attackers.

    Logically, I would say that defending your Camp should give you some buffs. Defending is always easier than attacking.
    But as a compromise, you could say that the buffs depend on some structure being intact.
    If the attackers can destroy those structures, that would even out the odds. Siege engines are tools that can destroy them easier.
    Not sure if that sounds more fair, but I hope it contributes to the discussion in some way.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @Lucio.4190 said:
    I don't play WvW, but just looking at the suggestion I feel like the balance would completely turn over to the other side. Removing the buffs for defenders, but adding many for the attackers.

    Logically, I would say that defending your Camp should give you some buffs. Defending is always easier than attacking.
    But as a compromise, you could say that the buffs depend on some structure being intact.
    If the attackers can destroy those structures, that would even out the odds. Siege engines are tools that can destroy them easier.
    Not sure if that sounds more fair, but I hope it contributes to the discussion in some way.

    Yea originally I wanted them to nerf the claim buff down to like maximum +30 each stat but as time went by, I started wanting it gone completely and replaced with something else. I didn't suggest any changes to make attackers strongers other than reducing dolyak escort buff.

    You can already rely on skill, communication and strategy when defending camps. Especially on home borderland or your eb corner where if you shout on mapchat that you need help defending a camp, minimum of 2 people show up to help. For example you can build golems that you can man to contest or start the fight with ballista burst. Passive stats aren't necessary for good PvP, you would actually get better fights if the stats didn't exist because you can after defending go to enemy camp and fight them again instead of losing due to stat swing. So without claim buff you'd get more and better fights, even if you lost camps against more skilled/organised opponents.

  • Wiin Prenite.9652Wiin Prenite.9652 Member ✭✭
    edited April 7, 2021

    MonkaHmm, You do realize half of wvw na is pug/bag farming groups that will sit in a t3 garri’s for an hour plus right?

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Claim buff at garrison is killing the fun of WvW combat!

    Meanwhile at north camp there is a 10 man perma-boon perma-absorb/reflect group consisting of 8 minstrel support builds and a couple dps running around ganking 20+ one by one because no one can touch them.

    But I digress.

    They are skilled players who seek out numbered fights.

  • aspirine.6852aspirine.6852 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thats funny coming from a deso ppt com that always complains about the same thing..

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Wait, I thought you could only get +200 all stats at a keep via Presence of the Keep and Guild claim? It's just +100 at a camp?

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Nah, you might as well advocate for replacing gear with amulets if you think stats matter that much.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Wait, I thought you could only get +200 all stats at a keep via Presence of the Keep and Guild claim? It's just +100 at a camp?

    Yeah if someone wanted presence of the keep nerfed or changed I could understand. Doesn't really make sense to remove the defender advantage of guild claim buff. That's kind of the whole point of it and currently does it for all walks of life from roamer to omega zerg. One night I was roaming on an enemy map and for over 10 minutes straight there was a train of defenders running from garrison to bay. You know the attackers had some real carnage going on in there. Closed tag naturally. Down to the solo/roaming end of the spectrum we literally don't care if someone is inside their claim buff. If we want the other player/s dead we will find a way, we always do. We know that happens too because of the salt whispers. I could roam without food and a runeset and still win a giant portion of my fights on a meme build not because I am amazing, but because I am experienced.

    If you are losing to claim buffs you might want to reexamine your strategy. I can assure you most fights are determined by player experience, gear, builds and the scenario long before external stats like claim buff and ruins are taken into consideration. That's kind of the point people have tried to explain to you in the past year. There are a lot of other things that need to be worked on first before making a trivial change to guild claim is going to sway anything, if ever. Can't stop a hurricane by killing a butterfly.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2021

    It's not the only thing killing WvW but it does need to go. People in general are starting to not bother much with anything else to get in some large fights before too many people log off and positioning and tempo is heavily dictated by territory lines.

    If some group got their kitten together and owns your camp, that's on your people. If there are thieves camping a spot, get some people and kill them or leave them there so they won't be other places.

    • Keep non wall levels with no claim buff. Only have claim buff work while on walls and stairs.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2021

    @Justine.6351 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Wait, I thought you could only get +200 all stats at a keep via Presence of the Keep and Guild claim? It's just +100 at a camp?

    Yeah if someone wanted presence of the keep nerfed or changed I could understand. Doesn't really make sense to remove the defender advantage of guild claim buff. That's kind of the whole point of it and currently does it for all walks of life from roamer to omega zerg. One night I was roaming on an enemy map and for over 10 minutes straight there was a train of defenders running from garrison to bay. You know the attackers had some real carnage going on in there. Closed tag naturally. Down to the solo/roaming end of the spectrum we literally don't care if someone is inside their claim buff. If we want the other player/s dead we will find a way, we always do. We know that happens too because of the salt whispers. I could roam without food and a runeset and still win a giant portion of my fights on a meme build not because I am amazing, but because I am experienced.

    If you are losing to claim buffs you might want to reexamine your strategy. I can assure you most fights are determined by player experience, gear, builds and the scenario long before external stats like claim buff and ruins are taken into consideration. That's kind of the point people have tried to explain to you in the past year. There are a lot of other things that need to be worked on first before making a trivial change to guild claim is going to sway anything, if ever. Can't stop a hurricane by killing a butterfly.

    Oh I agree, it's kinda dumb to blame losses for that. It's just I wanted to make sure that if there were falsehoods in the OP (and the last dozen or so topics spammed on the matter). Not that I am surprised that it is presented in a disingenuous fashion.

    So basically we are talking about a <5% advantage on the matter which could be solved by buying infusions or something. Also it's not really all stats either.

    My main annoyance with the keep buff is that it inflates my numbers when I'm adjusting my build so that just leads to me overestimating my stats. But that's not a huge deal.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Most WvW fights aren't perfect frictionless spheres knocking into each other. (Neither are most SPvP fights, either.)

    Sometimes the extra stats are like someone getting a free hit on me, or vice versa. But there are build disparities and outnumbering situations that are also like that. There's also a huge amount of variance in circumstances like "Did your enemy pre-charge their stacking sigils?" "How much life force does this necro have banked up?" "Does this group's mesmer have moa off cooldown?" We learn to live with it and it's fine.

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Threather.9354 said:
    It has been about year since last post so about to bring it up again as claim buff is definitely the biggest "killer" of WvW.

    No.
    It's not the claim buff that's killing WvW, but it's a nice attempt to rewrite history.

    This post contains my opinion.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You might as well ask for them to remove ascended gear from wvw too then...

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    All Guilds Carried By Boon Ball [BQQN]

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    You might as well ask for them to remove ascended gear from wvw too then...

    yeah that is pretty much it.
    if one side had superior bloodlust + guild claim + presence of the keep + food + sigil stacks + ascended + infusions and the other side didn't obviously that would be ridiculous but normally bloodlust is minor, food/ascended/infuions/stacking sigils are available to all and the regular claim buffs across a map are generally +, - or = depending on each server's activity on said map.

    Presence of the keep does kind of stand out to be fair. It takes the defender advantage and doubles it up which makes it a bit more prominent. If I had to choose a change to presence of the keep I would consider having it add +2 more tiers to the current guild's claim level and if already VIII then set it to X which would add concentration and expertise maybe? Just a random idea to trim/water down presence of the keep while still making it relevant.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:
    Survivability: Well 200 vitality is simply 10% more max health for almost all builds, so 10% more survivability, toughness is about the same, so total of 21% more survivability.

    That doesn't make sense.

    200 of 2000 (only health) is 10%.
    200 of 2000 (only armor) is 10%.
    400 of 4000 (health + armor) is still 10%.

    Now imagine you're roaming or blobbing, you beat enemy and then go their camp or tower and try have a nice fight again but there is 17% damage and 21% survivability swing, that is like 2 runesets. Obviously your chance to win the combat drops drastically, no strategy or anything involved. If enemy is competent and don't throw around their skills randomly, the map just ends in a stalemate where each side wins at their corner.

    Doesn't matter. What matters much more is outnumbering / imbalanced matchups. This is what kills WvW.
    If that stat difference was the biggest issue in WvW, the game mode would be in a great spot.

    If you double your armor and your health, you only gained 100% and 100% but its actually 300% increase in survivability.
    So with 200 vit and toughness is 1.1* 1.1* 100% -100% = 21% increase in survivability

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @aspirine.6852 said:
    Thats funny coming from a deso ppt com that always complains about the same thing..

    Hearsay. I attack things to get fights. I don't know the enemy commander names so I can arrange fights.

    I just want good fights.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Wait, I thought you could only get +200 all stats at a keep via Presence of the Keep and Guild claim? It's just +100 at a camp?

    Issue is that over 90% of fights you have against between 2 servers is at claim buff of one side, so it is either one side has it, or the other has it. So the difference is actually doubled.

    Reducing claim buff radius could be good idea too.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @LetoII.3782 said:
    Almost no fights are won/lost over 10%
    It's an easy scapegoat though.

    Its 17% damage and 21% survivability difference between normal fights (either near your objective or enemy objective). Its not 10%, its more like 40% more damage difference depending on location. Imagine that.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @Wiin Prenite.9652 said:
    MonkaHmm, You do realize half of wvw na is pug/bag farming groups that will sit in a t3 garri’s for an hour plus right?

    Yes and that is exactly result of claim buff. Imagine if claim buff didn't exist, then the attackers wouldn't need to be completely organised to survive in enemy keeps. Thus bandvagoning would be less of a necessity to "go for content".

    Overall claimbuff forces massive skill and build disparity between 2 servers as they need to overcome 800 stats, siege, movement speed and whatever. Thus guilds stack... so they can play the game instead of relying on enemy commander existing/not tagging down.

    You don't understand how fun works, if the "farmers" take keeps easier, they will be less stacked because they will be bored. And tbf most of us just want good fights.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @Justine.6351 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Wait, I thought you could only get +200 all stats at a keep via Presence of the Keep and Guild claim? It's just +100 at a camp?

    Yeah if someone wanted presence of the keep nerfed or changed I could understand. Doesn't really make sense to remove the defender advantage of guild claim buff. That's kind of the whole point of it and currently does it for all walks of life from roamer to omega zerg. One night I was roaming on an enemy map and for over 10 minutes straight there was a train of defenders running from garrison to bay. You know the attackers had some real carnage going on in there. Closed tag naturally. Down to the solo/roaming end of the spectrum we literally don't care if someone is inside their claim buff. If we want the other player/s dead we will find a way, we always do. We know that happens too because of the salt whispers. I could roam without food and a runeset and still win a giant portion of my fights on a meme build not because I am amazing, but because I am experienced.

    If you are losing to claim buffs you might want to reexamine your strategy. I can assure you most fights are determined by player experience, gear, builds and the scenario long before external stats like claim buff and ruins are taken into consideration. That's kind of the point people have tried to explain to you in the past year. There are a lot of other things that need to be worked on first before making a trivial change to guild claim is going to sway anything, if ever. Can't stop a hurricane by killing a butterfly.

    It isn't about starting a group and then having fights, its about keeping fights going. Yes you can make a more skillful group and overcome the 9% extra damage and 10% extra survivability that enemy has. But if the enemy is winning, they would naturally push your objective. That is when the 17% damage and 21% survivability swing happens: They lose claim buff, we gain it. And then we win easily when defending, enemy players don't magically learn how to take 20% less and deal 20% more damage. Do you see the issue here? It isn't about "one fight", it is about series of battles: So it ruins whole WvW.

    It is just boring as it is. This isn't a topic of I want to win more fights, that is easy: I would just defend. This topic is more about keeping good fights going and being able to balance server playerbase. There are plenty of other defender buffs they can implement (they actually nerfed siege vs siege damage and wall/gate hp so those should be buffed in return)

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    This thread has made me realise how little players of this game know about competitive balancing and math, it is 17% damage and 21% survivability that swing everytime you move from friendly objective to enemy one or other way around. In any competitive game, that is like difference between 20% winrate and 80% winrate, or even more. And this is literally on open field without siege. It just isn't acceptable. WvW can't keep going as it is.

    Stop thinking this is personal issue, it is issue with WvW as a whole. Yes you can have good battles against players on same spot but try swapping the owners of the claim buff and fight the same group.

  • Zikory.6871Zikory.6871 Member ✭✭✭

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @Wiin Prenite.9652 said:
    MonkaHmm, You do realize half of wvw na is pug/bag farming groups that will sit in a t3 garri’s for an hour plus right?

    Thus bandvagoning would be less of a necessity to "go for content".

    This is nonsense and you know it. People will always gravitate to content creators. The lack of notable guilds and commanders is a main driving force for people stacking servers.

    So your argument is, even WITH the claim buff, unorganized groups are unable to defend from a organized group. So you want to nerf unorganized groups in objectives in the hopes that the guilds that have been farming keeps for years will get bored and stop farming unorganized groups due to the lack of organized groups?

    Protip: groups that farm inside keeps wouldn't even be in the keep if your side organized a group and fought...but you'd rather retreat to a objectives and roleplay defense.

    Like Ascended food, claim buff probably isn't the reason your group lost...

    [KnT] Knights of the Temple

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @Blockhead Magee.3092 said:
    What's killing/killed WvW isn't the claim buff. That is way, way down the list of issues. Its like saying a paper cut is killing the cancer patient.

    How claim buff affects WvW:

    • Hitting keeps succesfully already ment before claim buff that your players needed to be quite a bit better. With claim buff they need to deal further 20% more damage and sustain 20% better. This leads to further stacking as no blob player wants to cap camps while waiting for enemy commander feeling like tagging up
    • SM/South camp Dueling: 8% damage and 10% survivability diff on one side. Might swing double next day depending who owns sm/south camp. Also helps interrupting players that are usually from defending side to interrupt duels. Dueling died, there is no scene to be had with claim buffs.
    • Other nerfs to defending: Wall/Gate Hp was lowered after introduction to claim buff as bandaid solution. Siege damage was halved against siege.
    • If you find a good group to fight, you're forced to stay on that corner to keep fighting them as if claim buff changes owners, the fights become dull.
    • Guilds aren't fighting for objectives anymore. Yes, they defend them, but you don't see top tier guilds going for objectives more than once anymore. There is no power rankings for guilds anymore as it swings depending on location
    • Long term keep sieges are dead, if you die attacking, you just had miserable time feeling like you deal no damage and are not tanky.
    • Pugs can run bad builds and think they're strong. Yes, they're okay defending. Then they become useless once they step out. Eventually they learn this and never step out of friendly objectives, or even join squads.
    • There isn't anymore 1v1s to be had during keep sieges. This means if you have outnumbering group, it is quite boring to just participate in AoE bombing instead of having option to do something according to your skill level.
    • Playing for point is boring as the fights you get attacking are terribad and end up losing more than you should. Yes, some people like farming enemies inside keeps with stacked blobs: I don't. Only people who miss over 50% of their skills or have ego issues enjoy capping things these days.
    • Intricate adjusting of location to adjust powerlevel of one side is much harder as it is. Yes you can swap between similar towers like QL and langor to get better fights but swapping between QL and Klovan so green side has better chances will lead to massive change in combat power.
    • T3 SM, enough said.
  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    It is all on you, anet

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @Wiin Prenite.9652 said:
    MonkaHmm, You do realize half of wvw na is pug/bag farming groups that will sit in a t3 garri’s for an hour plus right?

    Thus bandvagoning would be less of a necessity to "go for content".


    This is nonsense and you know it. People will always gravitate to content creators. The lack of notable guilds and commanders is a main driving force for people stacking servers.

    So your argument is, even WITH the claim buff, unorganized groups are unable to defend from a organized group. So you want to nerf unorganized groups in objectives in the hopes that the guilds that have been farming keeps for years will get bored and stop farming unorganized groups due to the lack of organized groups?

    Protip: groups that farm inside keeps wouldn't even be in the keep if your side organized a group and fought...but you'd rather retreat to a objectives and roleplay defense.

    Like Ascended food, claim buff probably isn't the reason your group lost...

    It isn't about me wanting to win more, stop making it a personal thing. It is about competitive balancing, I could go on stacked server if I wanted so but I retired from that years ago because there was no close fights. And yes, the stackers would be more bored if they had even easier time, then they would graviate towards other servers. Do you know whats the allure of these stacking servers? Its that they can "have epic fights" defending objectives even when there is no commander, so they hold sm all day and never lose anything. Then when they get a commander, they can just push enemy objectives and farm them there for hour or two before they get bored. Have you been on stacked server, did you ever lose a fight at your keep, or even corner, with equal numbers? Nope. This is how WvW is these days, objective fights are completely onesided.

    Tbf off-prime open commanders all stopped because they obviously don't have great players and then they lose against worse players at their keeps/towers. Most of them transferred to a stacked bandvagoning server soon after HoT right before stopping leading, others just stopped completely. You can pretty much name all daytime and nighttime voice commanders in that list. This is the issue with claim buff, it becomes very strong on pug level. Regular commanding outside prime just devolves into not having much fun. There are absolutely no decent voice commanders that lead off-prime during the week anymore. Now you can blame pugs all you want for that but we know both sides have pugs around those timezones. There were plenty of commanders to provide you content on every server but they all disappeared because claim buff ruined their fun, poof

    And no, winning fights with 800 or against 800 stats isn't fun. You either feel like complete noob for it even being close or hitting like a wet noodle.

    Dude, normal servers don't just "organise a group to fight you", we have tried. But we don't have 50 people with ascended sets and 1000+ hours in wvw blobbing ready to go. Even if we did, we wouldn't get them on the map before queues. Those people left to bandvagon long ago because they wanted to take keeps. Most of them quit after tho cuz it was boring , rather than overly hard, on the other side.

  • Gotejjeken.1267Gotejjeken.1267 Member ✭✭✭

    IMO, Claim Buff needs to be transferred to Bloodlust to give it some meaning. That way it also encourages fights...you want the buff? Go fight over the ruins.

    If want pressure off n camp, adding an additional camp up top wouldn't hurt. Somewhere farther up like in the skritt or tamini areas.

    I say additional as North is the only 'chokepoint' camp because S camp is utterly useless. The only 'downside' to this is if your server is competent, your Garri and such will go to T3 faster, but no one seems to care much about PPT anyway.

  • Mogwai.4015Mogwai.4015 Member ✭✭✭

    How do you get these percentsges? Wouldn't it vary completely based on each individual's current stat, trait, and skill setup? I find it hard to believe that the buff affects a Minstrel Scrapper's damage exactly the same as a Berserker Herald. I am not a math person though.

    For myself personally, I don't care about it and wouldnt care if it was removed. More than anything, I wish they would instead remove Watchtower, which is arguably much more responsible for a decline in roaming, scouting, and havocing than I would say Claim Buff is responsible for "killing WvW."

  • TheOneWhoSighs.7513TheOneWhoSighs.7513 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @Mogwai.4015 said:
    How do you get these percentsges? Wouldn't it vary completely based on each individual's current stat, trait, and skill setup? I find it hard to believe that the buff affects a Minstrel Scrapper's damage exactly the same as a Berserker Herald. I am not a math person though.

    For myself personally, I don't care about it and wouldnt care if it was removed. More than anything, I wish they would instead remove Watchtower, which is arguably much more responsible for a decline in roaming, scouting, and havocing than I would say Claim Buff is responsible for "killing WvW."

    It would vary. For instance, Full Minstrel Guardian already has 3443 armor. So 200 armor (which is all 200 toughness is) is around a 5.8% increase, rather than 10%.
    200 vitality is 2000 health. If a class has over 20k health then it's less than 10%. Under than and it's more.

    I'll say the OP is roughly accurate though in that the buff probably swings more than people realize.

    My personal opinion is that I'm fine with it being strong, I just think it would be interesting if it were like the orbs of power back in the day rather than what it is now. But for that to make sense, ANet would have to actually address its hacker problem. Soooo. lol.

    Don't use a VPN kids. More likely to be banned for that than you are for hacking.

    Can the forum devs please make the dev tracker actually usable. No one wants to see posts in which a dev has commented on 2 months ago pop up just because some random person commented on it today.

    Why are we put here, just to suffer?

  • Wiin Prenite.9652Wiin Prenite.9652 Member ✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @Wiin Prenite.9652 said:
    MonkaHmm, You do realize half of wvw na is pug/bag farming groups that will sit in a t3 garri’s for an hour plus right?

    Yes and that is exactly result of claim buff. Imagine if claim buff didn't exist, then the attackers wouldn't need to be completely organised to survive in enemy keeps. Thus bandvagoning would be less of a necessity to "go for content".

    Overall claimbuff forces massive skill and build disparity between 2 servers as they need to overcome 800 stats, siege, movement speed and whatever. Thus guilds stack... so they can play the game instead of relying on enemy commander existing/not tagging down.

    You don't understand how fun works, if the "farmers" take keeps easier, they will be less stacked because they will be bored. And tbf most of us just want good fights.

    Bruh. did you not read the rest of my comment? THEY CAN CAP IT THEY CHOOSE NOT TO BECAUSE THEY WANNA FARM PUG BAGS......... The only reason I would understand you trying to argue this being changed is because you are in one of the zed guilds who farm pugs for bags who don't know better

  • Zikory.6871Zikory.6871 Member ✭✭✭

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @Wiin Prenite.9652 said:
    MonkaHmm, You do realize half of wvw na is pug/bag farming groups that will sit in a t3 garri’s for an hour plus right?

    Thus bandvagoning would be less of a necessity to "go for content".


    This is nonsense and you know it. People will always gravitate to content creators. The lack of notable guilds and commanders is a main driving force for people stacking servers.

    So your argument is, even WITH the claim buff, unorganized groups are unable to defend from a organized group. So you want to nerf unorganized groups in objectives in the hopes that the guilds that have been farming keeps for years will get bored and stop farming unorganized groups due to the lack of organized groups?

    Protip: groups that farm inside keeps wouldn't even be in the keep if your side organized a group and fought...but you'd rather retreat to a objectives and roleplay defense.

    Like Ascended food, claim buff probably isn't the reason your group lost...

    It isn't about me wanting to win more, stop making it a personal thing. It is about competitive balancing, I could go on stacked server if I wanted so but I retired from that years ago because there was no close fights. And yes, the stackers would be more bored if they had even easier time, then they would graviate towards other servers. Do you know whats the allure of these stacking servers? Its that they can "have epic fights" defending objectives even when there is no commander, so they hold sm all day and never lose anything. Then when they get a commander, they can just push enemy objectives and farm them there for hour or two before they get bored. Have you been on stacked server, did you ever lose a fight at your keep, or even corner, with equal numbers? Nope. This is how WvW is these days, objective fights are completely onesided.

    Tbf off-prime open commanders all stopped because they obviously don't have great players and then they lose against worse players at their keeps/towers. Most of them transferred to a stacked bandvagoning server soon after HoT right before stopping leading, others just stopped completely. You can pretty much name all daytime and nighttime voice commanders in that list. This is the issue with claim buff, it becomes very strong on pug level. Regular commanding outside prime just devolves into not having much fun. There are absolutely no decent voice commanders that lead off-prime during the week anymore. Now you can blame pugs all you want for that but we know both sides have pugs around those timezones. There were plenty of commanders to provide you content on every server but they all disappeared because claim buff ruined their fun, poof

    And no, winning fights with 800 or against 800 stats isn't fun. You either feel like complete noob for it even being close or hitting like a wet noodle.

    Dude, normal servers don't just "organise a group to fight you", we have tried. But we don't have 50 people with ascended sets and 1000+ hours in wvw blobbing ready to go. Even if we did, we wouldn't get them on the map before queues. Those people left to bandvagon long ago because they wanted to take keeps. Most of them quit after tho cuz it was boring , rather than overly hard, on the other side.

    Where do you think these large groups come from? Content creators have spent years cultivating a following, name a group or commander that gets 50/50 squads that hasn't been playing for years...

    So the claim buff is why a server can't get 50 people to work together? Maybe players expect some level of competitiveness that your sever isn't providing.

    Claim buff isn't way people quit. We have had the same meta for years, Firebrand/Scourge/Herald/Scrapper have had ZERO notable changes to effect the meta. This is way your content creators and fight guilds quit. No balance to shake things up, top guilds solidify their position as a top guild and get bored.

    Nothing personal here. Claim buff just isn't a game breaking issue, I spend enough time inside enemy lords rooms to know that its not helping a group that can't already defend the objective. Random unorganized pugs will still die to coordinated damage, delete the claim buff and they will just die faster.

    [KnT] Knights of the Temple

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @Wiin Prenite.9652 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @Wiin Prenite.9652 said:
    MonkaHmm, You do realize half of wvw na is pug/bag farming groups that will sit in a t3 garri’s for an hour plus right?

    Yes and that is exactly result of claim buff. Imagine if claim buff didn't exist, then the attackers wouldn't need to be completely organised to survive in enemy keeps. Thus bandvagoning would be less of a necessity to "go for content".

    Overall claimbuff forces massive skill and build disparity between 2 servers as they need to overcome 800 stats, siege, movement speed and whatever. Thus guilds stack... so they can play the game instead of relying on enemy commander existing/not tagging down.

    You don't understand how fun works, if the "farmers" take keeps easier, they will be less stacked because they will be bored. And tbf most of us just want good fights.

    Bruh. did you not read the rest of my comment? THEY CAN CAP IT THEY CHOOSE NOT TO BECAUSE THEY WANNA FARM PUG BAGS......... The only reason I would understand you trying to argue this being changed is because you are in one of the zed guilds who farm pugs for bags who don't know better

    Maybe I just want to defend things and want enemy pug and guild groups willing to attack.

    Maybe I tag up off-prime with random pugs and have good fights instead of pugs dying behind to overstatted enemies.

    Maybe I want to have fair duels or fights.

    Maybe I want to win close fight then go to enemy corner and have more close fights.

    Maybe I want to lose a close fight then have enemy come to my corner so my spawn is closer instead of having 17% more damage and 20% more survivability than enemy did.

    Maybe I want a reason for commanders and organisation to be necessary for defending instead of stats making up for existance of a commander.

    There are lot of reason. Only reason to keep claim buff is so one can hold objectives, there are billion reasons to remove it. But you can buff objective defending otherwise for example increasing wall/gate health, siege damage or strength of guards (camps mostly) and it wouldn't affect players passively but you can make decisions to circumvent that other than going elsewhere.

    Most people who care about fights not just "easy bags" already quit the game because good ones are infrequent and positionally fragile due to claim buff.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Wait, I thought you could only get +200 all stats at a keep via Presence of the Keep and Guild claim? It's just +100 at a camp?

    Issue is that over 90% of fights you have against between 2 servers is at claim buff of one side, so it is either one side has it, or the other has it. So the difference is actually doubled.

    Reducing claim buff radius could be good idea too.

    90%? I mean there's already a lot of questionable numbers but

    What.

    Are you guys really doing roaming fights at 5000 range?

    This can really only apply to EB keep and maybe Bay , and why would you roam into keep areas when you're going to instantly get tagged by cannons and mortars? If you're getting kited keeps regularly, this really calls into question what you're defining as roaming.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Wait, I thought you could only get +200 all stats at a keep via Presence of the Keep and Guild claim? It's just +100 at a camp?

    Issue is that over 90% of fights you have against between 2 servers is at claim buff of one side, so it is either one side has it, or the other has it. So the difference is actually doubled.

    Reducing claim buff radius could be good idea too.

    90%? I mean there's already a lot of questionable numbers but

    What.

    Are you guys really doing roaming fights at 5000 range?

    This can really only apply to EB keep and maybe Bay , and why would you roam into keep areas when you're going to instantly get tagged by cannons and mortars? If you're getting kited keeps regularly, this really calls into question what you're defining as roaming.

    The 800 stats comes from either fighting near your objective (so you have claim buff) or enemy one (enemy has it). Of course there is 3rd corner and ruins/NPCs but those aren't used that much in fights between 2 servers.

    So you win a fight with your claim buff, you go to enemy corner and have a new fight. Then they have a claim buff. Or they win at their corner and come to yours. Claim buff wouldn't be nearly as troublesome if only one server had it all the time instead of it swapping sides depending on location or even map.

    Imagine having a habit of dueling near SM and having nice fights against certain people so it becomes habit for you to log in at that timezone in that matchup. Then the SM changes owners some day and those duels are ruined (because the difference is basically same as one side getting 2 extra rune sets). Same applies almost as strongly to group fights (as overkilling with cc lock is more of a thing there).

    Of course Presence of the keep is equally as troublesome as it makes any commander or guild that just defends their keep then ports away impossible to fight against. There are literally servers who do only this.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @Wiin Prenite.9652 said:
    MonkaHmm, You do realize half of wvw na is pug/bag farming groups that will sit in a t3 garri’s for an hour plus right?

    Thus bandvagoning would be less of a necessity to "go for content".


    This is nonsense and you know it. People will always gravitate to content creators. The lack of notable guilds and commanders is a main driving force for people stacking servers.

    So your argument is, even WITH the claim buff, unorganized groups are unable to defend from a organized group. So you want to nerf unorganized groups in objectives in the hopes that the guilds that have been farming keeps for years will get bored and stop farming unorganized groups due to the lack of organized groups?

    Protip: groups that farm inside keeps wouldn't even be in the keep if your side organized a group and fought...but you'd rather retreat to a objectives and roleplay defense.

    Like Ascended food, claim buff probably isn't the reason your group lost...

    It isn't about me wanting to win more, stop making it a personal thing. It is about competitive balancing, I could go on stacked server if I wanted so but I retired from that years ago because there was no close fights. And yes, the stackers would be more bored if they had even easier time, then they would graviate towards other servers. Do you know whats the allure of these stacking servers? Its that they can "have epic fights" defending objectives even when there is no commander, so they hold sm all day and never lose anything. Then when they get a commander, they can just push enemy objectives and farm them there for hour or two before they get bored. Have you been on stacked server, did you ever lose a fight at your keep, or even corner, with equal numbers? Nope. This is how WvW is these days, objective fights are completely onesided.

    Tbf off-prime open commanders all stopped because they obviously don't have great players and then they lose against worse players at their keeps/towers. Most of them transferred to a stacked bandvagoning server soon after HoT right before stopping leading, others just stopped completely. You can pretty much name all daytime and nighttime voice commanders in that list. This is the issue with claim buff, it becomes very strong on pug level. Regular commanding outside prime just devolves into not having much fun. There are absolutely no decent voice commanders that lead off-prime during the week anymore. Now you can blame pugs all you want for that but we know both sides have pugs around those timezones. There were plenty of commanders to provide you content on every server but they all disappeared because claim buff ruined their fun, poof

    And no, winning fights with 800 or against 800 stats isn't fun. You either feel like complete noob for it even being close or hitting like a wet noodle.

    Dude, normal servers don't just "organise a group to fight you", we have tried. But we don't have 50 people with ascended sets and 1000+ hours in wvw blobbing ready to go. Even if we did, we wouldn't get them on the map before queues. Those people left to bandvagon long ago because they wanted to take keeps. Most of them quit after tho cuz it was boring , rather than overly hard, on the other side.

    Where do you think these large groups come from? Content creators have spent years cultivating a following, name a group or commander that gets 50/50 squads that hasn't been playing for years...

    So the claim buff is why a server can't get 50 people to work together? Maybe players expect some level of competitiveness that your sever isn't providing.

    Claim buff isn't way people quit. We have had the same meta for years, Firebrand/Scourge/Herald/Scrapper have had ZERO notable changes to effect the meta. This is way your content creators and fight guilds quit. No balance to shake things up, top guilds solidify their position as a top guild and get bored.

    Nothing personal here. Claim buff just isn't a game breaking issue, I spend enough time inside enemy lords rooms to know that its not helping a group that can't already defend the objective. Random unorganized pugs will still die to coordinated damage, delete the claim buff and they will just die faster.

    Well I'll assume you're a guild player, how great are guild fights between guilds inside keeps? Think about this. This was literally what guilds did before in WvW when they were raiding. Answer is: They aren't great anymore. It ruins roaming and pugging much more than that.

    I wouldn't say that there are only groups of "unorganised pugs" and "organised players", there are organised groups that are better than others. There are pugs that attempt to be useful bringing useful classes and there are those who have ranger raids. Overall claimbuff is big issue in WvW and gets the issue gets bigger the more equal the groups are.

    Top guilds quit because they can't show that they're the best, 10th best guild can just hide in their keeps and farm them all day. Then they chestpump and say they're the best. There is absolutely no power ranking in the game, outside some 15v15 eotm/OS gvgs (where there isn't claim buff btw).

    Of course the game gets boring if you only do open field fights, this is why objectives where you had strategy (other than blasting scrapper stealth) to overcome enemy were fun. You could use keep portals, bomb guilds from below, flank with another guild, hide behind gates, fakepush around corner, even build siege if you were much weaker. So much potential wasted now that guilds are just humping openfield.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @Wiin Prenite.9652 said:
    MonkaHmm, You do realize half of wvw na is pug/bag farming groups that will sit in a t3 garri’s for an hour plus right?

    Thus bandvagoning would be less of a necessity to "go for content".


    This is nonsense and you know it. People will always gravitate to content creators. The lack of notable guilds and commanders is a main driving force for people stacking servers.

    So your argument is, even WITH the claim buff, unorganized groups are unable to defend from a organized group. So you want to nerf unorganized groups in objectives in the hopes that the guilds that have been farming keeps for years will get bored and stop farming unorganized groups due to the lack of organized groups?

    Protip: groups that farm inside keeps wouldn't even be in the keep if your side organized a group and fought...but you'd rather retreat to a objectives and roleplay defense.

    Like Ascended food, claim buff probably isn't the reason your group lost...

    It isn't about me wanting to win more, stop making it a personal thing. It is about competitive balancing, I could go on stacked server if I wanted so but I retired from that years ago because there was no close fights. And yes, the stackers would be more bored if they had even easier time, then they would graviate towards other servers. Do you know whats the allure of these stacking servers? Its that they can "have epic fights" defending objectives even when there is no commander, so they hold sm all day and never lose anything. Then when they get a commander, they can just push enemy objectives and farm them there for hour or two before they get bored. Have you been on stacked server, did you ever lose a fight at your keep, or even corner, with equal numbers? Nope. This is how WvW is these days, objective fights are completely onesided.

    Tbf off-prime open commanders all stopped because they obviously don't have great players and then they lose against worse players at their keeps/towers. Most of them transferred to a stacked bandvagoning server soon after HoT right before stopping leading, others just stopped completely. You can pretty much name all daytime and nighttime voice commanders in that list. This is the issue with claim buff, it becomes very strong on pug level. Regular commanding outside prime just devolves into not having much fun. There are absolutely no decent voice commanders that lead off-prime during the week anymore. Now you can blame pugs all you want for that but we know both sides have pugs around those timezones. There were plenty of commanders to provide you content on every server but they all disappeared because claim buff ruined their fun, poof

    And no, winning fights with 800 or against 800 stats isn't fun. You either feel like complete noob for it even being close or hitting like a wet noodle.

    Dude, normal servers don't just "organise a group to fight you", we have tried. But we don't have 50 people with ascended sets and 1000+ hours in wvw blobbing ready to go. Even if we did, we wouldn't get them on the map before queues. Those people left to bandvagon long ago because they wanted to take keeps. Most of them quit after tho cuz it was boring , rather than overly hard, on the other side.

    Where do you think these large groups come from? Content creators have spent years cultivating a following, name a group or commander that gets 50/50 squads that hasn't been playing for years...

    So the claim buff is why a server can't get 50 people to work together? Maybe players expect some level of competitiveness that your sever isn't providing.

    Claim buff isn't way people quit. We have had the same meta for years, Firebrand/Scourge/Herald/Scrapper have had ZERO notable changes to effect the meta. This is way your content creators and fight guilds quit. No balance to shake things up, top guilds solidify their position as a top guild and get bored.

    Nothing personal here. Claim buff just isn't a game breaking issue, I spend enough time inside enemy lords rooms to know that its not helping a group that can't already defend the objective. Random unorganized pugs will still die to coordinated damage, delete the claim buff and they will just die faster.

    Claim buff has turned large three way fights into staring contests until one side decides to push across the line and take the gamble. Those fights used to last hours, now they explode and one side gets gobbled up after a threshold of self sustained fighters dips too much on one side even if they have the numbers. Then everyone pulls back behind their lines or get pushed back to their keep gate. This has been the case both times I've been linked with Mag and well before and now linked to BG on weekdays at prime time and on weekends so it's not just one matchup.

    Maybe you're waiting around for your "content creators" but that doesn't work for most other people and it probably isn't as epic as you're trying sell it. If your "content creators" are the tags who queue up a map and keep throwing bodies at blobs and take like ten minutes between attempts then please tell them to stop. You can influence the influencer.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Threather.9354 maybe the claim buff should simply be adapting the stats. i think it is simply wrong to fully remove this.

    like, if 30 v 30 attackers:defenders are in the objectives area, no extra stats. but if its 30 v10 or 30 v20 , you should get extrastats, upscaling.

    if the maps outnumbered, that also should give extra stats.

    your changes can be made additionally to this, but if u plainly remove it, this gets more toxic than it is yet. u forget all the removed damage. it's extremly hard to beat off bigger numbers with only pugs. if the 2020 february nerfs would not exist, i'd say okay, just remove claim buffs. but like this, no.

    and again: we need less plain removing stuff. we need freaking fixes.

  • Zikory.6871Zikory.6871 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @Wiin Prenite.9652 said:
    MonkaHmm, You do realize half of wvw na is pug/bag farming groups that will sit in a t3 garri’s for an hour plus right?

    Thus bandvagoning would be less of a necessity to "go for content".


    This is nonsense and you know it. People will always gravitate to content creators. The lack of notable guilds and commanders is a main driving force for people stacking servers.

    So your argument is, even WITH the claim buff, unorganized groups are unable to defend from a organized group. So you want to nerf unorganized groups in objectives in the hopes that the guilds that have been farming keeps for years will get bored and stop farming unorganized groups due to the lack of organized groups?

    Protip: groups that farm inside keeps wouldn't even be in the keep if your side organized a group and fought...but you'd rather retreat to a objectives and roleplay defense.

    Like Ascended food, claim buff probably isn't the reason your group lost...

    It isn't about me wanting to win more, stop making it a personal thing. It is about competitive balancing, I could go on stacked server if I wanted so but I retired from that years ago because there was no close fights. And yes, the stackers would be more bored if they had even easier time, then they would graviate towards other servers. Do you know whats the allure of these stacking servers? Its that they can "have epic fights" defending objectives even when there is no commander, so they hold sm all day and never lose anything. Then when they get a commander, they can just push enemy objectives and farm them there for hour or two before they get bored. Have you been on stacked server, did you ever lose a fight at your keep, or even corner, with equal numbers? Nope. This is how WvW is these days, objective fights are completely onesided.

    Tbf off-prime open commanders all stopped because they obviously don't have great players and then they lose against worse players at their keeps/towers. Most of them transferred to a stacked bandvagoning server soon after HoT right before stopping leading, others just stopped completely. You can pretty much name all daytime and nighttime voice commanders in that list. This is the issue with claim buff, it becomes very strong on pug level. Regular commanding outside prime just devolves into not having much fun. There are absolutely no decent voice commanders that lead off-prime during the week anymore. Now you can blame pugs all you want for that but we know both sides have pugs around those timezones. There were plenty of commanders to provide you content on every server but they all disappeared because claim buff ruined their fun, poof

    And no, winning fights with 800 or against 800 stats isn't fun. You either feel like complete noob for it even being close or hitting like a wet noodle.

    Dude, normal servers don't just "organise a group to fight you", we have tried. But we don't have 50 people with ascended sets and 1000+ hours in wvw blobbing ready to go. Even if we did, we wouldn't get them on the map before queues. Those people left to bandvagon long ago because they wanted to take keeps. Most of them quit after tho cuz it was boring , rather than overly hard, on the other side.

    Where do you think these large groups come from? Content creators have spent years cultivating a following, name a group or commander that gets 50/50 squads that hasn't been playing for years...

    So the claim buff is why a server can't get 50 people to work together? Maybe players expect some level of competitiveness that your sever isn't providing.

    Claim buff isn't way people quit. We have had the same meta for years, Firebrand/Scourge/Herald/Scrapper have had ZERO notable changes to effect the meta. This is way your content creators and fight guilds quit. No balance to shake things up, top guilds solidify their position as a top guild and get bored.

    Nothing personal here. Claim buff just isn't a game breaking issue, I spend enough time inside enemy lords rooms to know that its not helping a group that can't already defend the objective. Random unorganized pugs will still die to coordinated damage, delete the claim buff and they will just die faster.

    Claim buff has turned large three way fights into staring contests until one side decides to push across the line and take the gamble. Those fights used to last hours, now they explode and one side gets gobbled up after a threshold of self sustained fighters dips too much on one side even if they have the numbers. Then everyone pulls back behind their lines or get pushed back to their keep gate. This has been the case both times I've been linked with Mag and well before and now linked to BG on weekdays at prime time and on weekends so it's not just one matchup.

    TIL, I have never once thought about the claim buff when fighting a group of any size. Feels like an excuse to hide mistakes.

    Maybe you're waiting around for your "content creators" but that doesn't work for most other people and it probably isn't as epic as you're trying sell it. If your "content creators" are the tags who queue up a map and keep throwing bodies at blobs and take like ten minutes between attempts then please tell them to stop. You can influence the influencer.

    What are you on about? You all the ones complaining. I can't speak to all the commanders and how they drive but people and alts transfer to links for full servers every relink. The only "stacking" is when a guild or prominent commander moves servers. Why we complaining about 50 man squads feeding? I thought people wanted more loot in WvW?

    [KnT] Knights of the Temple

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @Wiin Prenite.9652 said:
    MonkaHmm, You do realize half of wvw na is pug/bag farming groups that will sit in a t3 garri’s for an hour plus right?

    Thus bandvagoning would be less of a necessity to "go for content".


    This is nonsense and you know it. People will always gravitate to content creators. The lack of notable guilds and commanders is a main driving force for people stacking servers.

    So your argument is, even WITH the claim buff, unorganized groups are unable to defend from a organized group. So you want to nerf unorganized groups in objectives in the hopes that the guilds that have been farming keeps for years will get bored and stop farming unorganized groups due to the lack of organized groups?

    Protip: groups that farm inside keeps wouldn't even be in the keep if your side organized a group and fought...but you'd rather retreat to a objectives and roleplay defense.

    Like Ascended food, claim buff probably isn't the reason your group lost...

    It isn't about me wanting to win more, stop making it a personal thing. It is about competitive balancing, I could go on stacked server if I wanted so but I retired from that years ago because there was no close fights. And yes, the stackers would be more bored if they had even easier time, then they would graviate towards other servers. Do you know whats the allure of these stacking servers? Its that they can "have epic fights" defending objectives even when there is no commander, so they hold sm all day and never lose anything. Then when they get a commander, they can just push enemy objectives and farm them there for hour or two before they get bored. Have you been on stacked server, did you ever lose a fight at your keep, or even corner, with equal numbers? Nope. This is how WvW is these days, objective fights are completely onesided.

    Tbf off-prime open commanders all stopped because they obviously don't have great players and then they lose against worse players at their keeps/towers. Most of them transferred to a stacked bandvagoning server soon after HoT right before stopping leading, others just stopped completely. You can pretty much name all daytime and nighttime voice commanders in that list. This is the issue with claim buff, it becomes very strong on pug level. Regular commanding outside prime just devolves into not having much fun. There are absolutely no decent voice commanders that lead off-prime during the week anymore. Now you can blame pugs all you want for that but we know both sides have pugs around those timezones. There were plenty of commanders to provide you content on every server but they all disappeared because claim buff ruined their fun, poof

    And no, winning fights with 800 or against 800 stats isn't fun. You either feel like complete noob for it even being close or hitting like a wet noodle.

    Dude, normal servers don't just "organise a group to fight you", we have tried. But we don't have 50 people with ascended sets and 1000+ hours in wvw blobbing ready to go. Even if we did, we wouldn't get them on the map before queues. Those people left to bandvagon long ago because they wanted to take keeps. Most of them quit after tho cuz it was boring , rather than overly hard, on the other side.

    Where do you think these large groups come from? Content creators have spent years cultivating a following, name a group or commander that gets 50/50 squads that hasn't been playing for years...

    So the claim buff is why a server can't get 50 people to work together? Maybe players expect some level of competitiveness that your sever isn't providing.

    Claim buff isn't way people quit. We have had the same meta for years, Firebrand/Scourge/Herald/Scrapper have had ZERO notable changes to effect the meta. This is way your content creators and fight guilds quit. No balance to shake things up, top guilds solidify their position as a top guild and get bored.

    Nothing personal here. Claim buff just isn't a game breaking issue, I spend enough time inside enemy lords rooms to know that its not helping a group that can't already defend the objective. Random unorganized pugs will still die to coordinated damage, delete the claim buff and they will just die faster.

    Claim buff has turned large three way fights into staring contests until one side decides to push across the line and take the gamble. Those fights used to last hours, now they explode and one side gets gobbled up after a threshold of self sustained fighters dips too much on one side even if they have the numbers. Then everyone pulls back behind their lines or get pushed back to their keep gate. This has been the case both times I've been linked with Mag and well before and now linked to BG on weekdays at prime time and on weekends so it's not just one matchup.

    TIL, I have never once thought about the claim buff when fighting a group of any size. Feels like an excuse to hide mistakes.

    Maybe you're waiting around for your "content creators" but that doesn't work for most other people and it probably isn't as epic as you're trying sell it. If your "content creators" are the tags who queue up a map and keep throwing bodies at blobs and take like ten minutes between attempts then please tell them to stop. You can influence the influencer.

    What are you on about? You all the ones complaining. I can't speak to all the commanders and how they drive but people and alts transfer to links for full servers every relink. The only "stacking" is when a guild or prominent commander moves servers. Why we complaining about 50 man squads feeding? I thought people wanted more loot in WvW?

    I'm not complaining about 50 deep squads. Large squads sitting around between sad attempts for favorable conditions isn't fun though, and yes, territory plays into that.

    Most people don't play WvW to follow social media personalities. Most people will show up to anything going on. What are you on about with with content creators? Don't be that guy.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • How 'bout this:
    Bring back EotM, GvGs AND put some nice, cute, fancy shmancy rewards on EotM rather than whacking ur heads doing ur same ol' boring routine while w8ing for some guild fights to come up and do the same roulette.

    Also, the biggest issue is PPTing weaker servers during their peak times. That's a big fat Kappa, right? =)

    And another note ya might wanna take a look at: double teaming or helping enemy servers (like Mag + AR) beat the kitten outta other servers is one of the biggest things ya might wanna look at, cuz that ain't bringing joy to the game.

    So, bring back EotM and some other shenanigans like those good ol' days and have some fun! Whaddya say? HEH?! B)

    PS -- I know it'll be a bit too over, but bring back guardian's loot stick just like before! :trollface:

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2021

    Only thing Claim buff is doing is catering to players that wanna play random pewpew builds, everyone else has less fights and fun.

    Do note that anet employees stopped enjoying WvW with HoT too.

  • @StARlORD.2736 said:
    And another note ya might wanna take a look at: double teaming or helping enemy servers (like Mag + AR) beat the kitten outta other servers is one of the biggest things ya might wanna look at, cuz that ain't bringing joy to the game.

    Ain't nobody double-teaming. All 3 of the sides would kitten jam the other in a heartbeat. It's just that the two stronger sides are trying to wait until the other is distracted so they can get their kitten jam in while not being jammed themselves.

    Can the forum devs please make the dev tracker actually usable. No one wants to see posts in which a dev has commented on 2 months ago pop up just because some random person commented on it today.

    Why are we put here, just to suffer?

  • After reading the topic and your comments, I'm kinda amused, I've seen a lot excuses like "omg i'm lagging, you won by luck, you cheat, etc." but it's first time I'm seeing someone complain about buff claim, which is still worthless in long run. (You can complain about players that use food as well, going by your logic though)
    There is a lot of places which that buff doesn't apply, so you can do your "hehe skillful 1v1" or "my guild is better" there, no one stopping you from going into Obsidian Sanctum either.
    What killed WvW was powercreep via e-speces, which started to bleed players even faster, but the real killer was "lack of content and purpose". I mean, what's the point of "attacking" enemy objectives if enemy will hide behind walls and sit on AC whole day even if they have that "OP BROKEN STATZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ" with the same numbers as enemy? WvW is almost the same since 2012 with few changes here and there, beside that it's the same kitten thing for almost 9 years now, how do you want people to keep playing, for what reason they should invest time? Even Mario Bros become boring after certain amount of time.
    Your argument would be valid only if balance was much better, but you know what? You still can get 1-shot in your own territory if enemy RNG rolls are better than your luck, welcome in reality.

  • I never hear anybody in NA complain about the claim buff or use it as an excuse for wins or losses. Is there some sort of metric system claim buff going on across the pond?

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dinas Dragonbane.2978 said:
    I never hear anybody in NA complain about the claim buff or use it as an excuse for wins or losses. Is there some sort of metric system claim buff going on across the pond?

    ^This^

    Sitting in an enemy keep and farming the enemy....

    We see that often.

    I’ve never had a com back up to keep from being in a territory from a claim buff perspective. To bait, yes. Claim buff? Nope.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Zikory.6871Zikory.6871 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2021

    I've legit never even thought about the claim buff this much. I think the best argument here is 1v1s around keeps but since the game mode will never be balanced around small scale or 1v1s, its kind of moot. I wholeheartedly believe the claim buff is so minor that it can be ignored and fights that are so even that it could maybe make a difference are so far and in between that its practically irrelevant.

    If this suggestion was something like limiting claim buff to inside objectives only OR maybe claim buff only for held parts of the objective, break into outer, claim buff moves to only inner. But blanket "I don't like it because of how I play so delete it" is a nah from me.

    [KnT] Knights of the Temple