Thief, WvW's most understated class for Zerg fights

Once upon a time I brought up a PoV commanders on TC or Piken square really hated, even thinking of it made people either rage or say I was stupid. But tbh when you think deeper on it, thief does have some pretty serious untapped potential in WvW Zergs.

Dravvi at it again I know, well let me dive into this.

Much like soulbeast is in my not so humble opinion one of WvW's most valuable classes (to which I invite alot of them to my squads and am currently smashing desolation by doing so), I believe with the right builds and the right state of mind. Thiefs can bring some REALLY useful buffs to the party and even more? They can be devastating in Zerg fights.

Skelk venom can make a huge difference in zergs, when you apply that venom to your entire party that is a extra free heal for all 5 players over the next 5 attacks for a base of 1200 HP per attack. Might not seem like much but every bit counts.

Missing scrappers? Shadow refuge can be a major boon to everyone in your party, stealth your party for a few seconds and jump right into the middle of the fight.

Pitfall and Seal Area are two insanely good CC abilities that can be used to give the upper edge to players in zerg fights, though they take a short time to arm? if placed properly they can descimate players in choke points in a matter of seconds.

One of my favorite abilities on thief is dagger storm, it's very strong and very underused. Over dagger storm's duration those daggers flying out in every direction bounce off enemy targets and the thief evades, this can give thiefs a upper edge in zerg fights where enemies are clustered. One thief per party in a 25+ person zerg with that equipped can be a huge amount of damage in just 4 seconds.

Shadow portal can make a really good substitute for a mesmer when used properly, though only allowing 5 people. Should each thief carry one? it can help get zergs from point A to point B very quickly.

The remaining venoms can be used to boost the damage output of heavy condi reliant parties, apply them to a scourge? Watch what happens.

I tend to think outside the box when commanding, while I understand the meta has its place? I think people often understate the potential of each class and what they can bring to the table.

This is Mistwalker Sirii of Blacktide/Piken Square, signing out.

You kind of have to build into venoms though and that takes utility and trait slots.Maybe drop Shadow Refuge and Venoms and take Shadow Savior if you want to soft heal a group, Death's Retreat and Infiltrators Arrow are both considered Shadowsteps. I think you might rather just have more takedown potential though with enough Health to stick around and cover people. Then you can take Pitfall, which is super fun, but try to mask your drop a little.I feel like people just kind of wait out Dagger Storm. Basilik Venom is nice if you can connect a Stolen Skill on a squad drivers support and maybe lock them up when they go into a Stealth rush. DS is alright though if there aren't many Whirling Axes to grab.

revs spike for 10k +in zergs u typically have 10 + revswith all this dmg upfront in ur face u rly think vemons will do anything for healcorrupts bombs strip 15 + stacks of stab instaimmob get cleasnsed by scrapper godstheres a solid reason only few players play gimmick classes like stafff thief and immob beast , reason beeing :in 40+ man figts these classes succk and have small vallueofc very few players manage to actually get some vallue out of themmeta classes are much more profitable in the hands of common players cause safer gameplay , safer results

Do NOT drop Shadow Refuge over stealth fields; it'll cause people to de-stealth if they move out of it.

No mention of Scorpion Wiring strays?Disappointing.

@kash.9213 said:I feel like people just kind of wait out Dagger Storm. Basilik Venom is nice if you can connect a Stolen Skill on a squad drivers support and maybe lock them up when they go into a Stealth rush. DS is alright though if there aren't many Whirling Axes to grab.

My favourite thing is actually to Shadowstep into enemy clump and drop Smokescreen followed up by Daggerstorm, then Shadow Return once it's over.Blinds for everyone, and impossible to retaliate against because of DS Evade combined with Smokescreen Proj hate.

When I was using Trailblazer condi I would either use Engi's stolen skill (The Ethereal field gunk) or Choking Gas.

Lmao yes yes teef is amazing in zergs, every zerg be full of em for a reason.

@"MysteryDude.1572" said:revs spike for 10k +in zergs u typically have 10 + revswith all this dmg upfront in ur face u rly think vemons will do anything for healcorrupts bombs strip 15 + stacks of stab instaimmob get cleasnsed by scrapper godstheres a solid reason only few players play gimmick classes like stafff thief and immob beast , reason beeing :in 40+ man figts these classes succk and have small vallueofc very few players manage to actually get some vallue out of themmeta classes are much more profitable in the hands of common players cause safer gameplay , safer results

so your argument is, why bother healing or applying boons? mmm ok...

EVERY bit of class utility counts.

meta classes are just lowest-common-denominator builds that can get results no matter how bad the player. metabattle openly states this on their about page - https://metabattle.com/wiki/MetaBattle:About -- "[meta builds] must be great in the hands of any player", ie: skill floor must be low.

higher skill players can and will get better results on classes with high(er) utility and higher skill ceilings, which are usually not "meta".

staff daredevil is a great example of a high skill floor, high skill ceiling spec that can be extremely effective in the right hands as it can dish out high damage, especially to squishy DPS backliners, while remaining very hard to kill, as well as good area denial and dmg mitigation through area blinds, poison fields and area weakness.

I think you're underestimating how much of the current meta is driven by the ability to pre-engage at 1200 range, specifically with high-burst non-reflectable AOE attacks.

Staff daredevil can do a pretty decent imitation of a Phase Smash + COR spike with Shadowstep Vault-Vault-Vault combo but that's limited by the high Shadowstep cooldown. That's… not bad, but situational.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Lmao yes yes teef is amazing in zergs, every zerg be full of em for a reason.

Every zerg isnt full of them because people like Sustain / share blobs because its more effective when it comes to healing and surviving and its Much easier to play and survive in for the average player. You could have blobs made up of about,everything. But the playerbase and the mindset of players will not allow this from happening.

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Lmao yes yes teef is amazing in zergs, every zerg be full of em for a reason.

Yup, that comment went right over your head lol

@Yasai.3549 said:No mention of Scorpion Wiring strays?Disappointing.

@kash.9213 said:I feel like people just kind of wait out Dagger Storm. Basilik Venom is nice if you can connect a Stolen Skill on a squad drivers support and maybe lock them up when they go into a Stealth rush. DS is alright though if there aren't many Whirling Axes to grab.

@kash.9213 said:I feel like people just kind of wait out Dagger Storm. Basilik Venom is nice if you can connect a Stolen Skill on a squad drivers support and maybe lock them up when they go into a Stealth rush. DS is alright though if there aren't many Whirling Axes to grab.

That must be fun to hit at the back end of a group or to bust up siege or something. Cloaked in Shadow would clutch.

Shocking aura and any ground lines disrupt daggerstorm and staff skills which is the biggest reason staff thief fell out of play. A lot of groups run staff guardians (fb+dh/core), staff eles, p/sh scrappers, and/or aura tempests right now which hurts how viable it is.

To be effective with it you need to stay on tag for stability, limiting how much damage you can do if your group isn't able to push into melee range reliably. You can get some value out of shortbow 4 on downs (maybe with an absorption sigil?), you could try focusing downed/out of position targets, or you could try to yeet into their backline with shadowstep.

But the bigger the enemy group, the less that these options are viable. More people=more unavoidable CC, and the rng starts working against you hard. Maybe you crit for 15k on multiple people, maybe you get locked in an animation and eat 8 hits of breach that downs you instantly. Maybe you get immobilized and simply explode.

So you end up with a class that's got good power spike damage for squads of up to 30-35, then it falls off hard. Other dps are pretty much guaranteed to land all their aoes on 5 targets with large groups while the inverse is true for thief. It takes a long time to become proficient with the class as well, so it's not like there's a good reason to play it in zergs. It works great in gvgs/smallscale though

I find offmeta builds such as this to be pretty decent in open field if they have a tail, but it becomes very ineffective in pirate ship/keep defense scenarios. So if your group is mostly staring at the other side waiting for the other side to screw up, you shouldn't join that fight, although you probably shouldn't anyways.

Also stuff like attacking SM or defending hills inner is basically impossible because you have to wade through way too much aoes and siege unless you have a party that gives support.

@MysteryDude.1572 said:immob get cleasnsed by scrapper godstheres a solid reason only few players play gimmick classes like stafff thief and immob beast ,

No it doesn't, at least not always and not on the retreats for regroup. Only a bad would burn out his 3 immobs on the first engage. Regardless, a Marauder SB doesn't even need to immobilize. It has the highest spike in the game so just running it for DPS is worthwhile. I have multiple backliners dead at my feet in these 40v40 zerg fights, just from my Maul + Prelude Lash +WD quickness combo. Stab and cleanse isn't 24/7, and when it's not, I'll be there omnoming your backliners.

Is it easier to do insane amounts of aoe damage from 1200 on my core Marauder guard? Of course, but he doesn't have any effective CC. And you can do larger spikes with the Immobeast...if you are positioned correctly.

Ultimately, it all depends on how good you are. And the Immobeast (or even the Immob Druid) is already a desired slot for a lot of guilds.

On 4/6/2021 at 1:35 PM, Charall.4710 said:

Once upon a time I brought up a PoV commanders on TC or Piken square really hated, even thinking of it made people either rage or say I was stupid. But tbh when you think deeper on it, thief does have some pretty serious untapped potential in WvW Zergs.

Dravvi at it again I know, well let me dive into this.

Much like soulbeast is in my not so humble opinion one of WvW's most valuable classes (to which I invite alot of them to my squads and am currently smashing desolation by doing so), I believe with the right builds and the right state of mind. Thiefs can bring some REALLY useful buffs to the party and even more? They can be devastating in Zerg fights.

Skelk venom can make a huge difference in zergs, when you apply that venom to your entire party that is a extra free heal for all 5 players over the next 5 attacks for a base of 1200 HP per attack. Might not seem like much but every bit counts.

Missing scrappers? Shadow refuge can be a major boon to everyone in your party, stealth your party for a few seconds and jump right into the middle of the fight.

Pitfall and Seal Area are two insanely good CC abilities that can be used to give the upper edge to players in zerg fights, though they take a short time to arm? if placed properly they can descimate players in choke points in a matter of seconds.

One of my favorite abilities on thief is dagger storm, it's very strong and very underused. Over dagger storm's duration those daggers flying out in every direction bounce off enemy targets and the thief evades, this can give thiefs a upper edge in zerg fights where enemies are clustered. One thief per party in a 25+ person zerg with that equipped can be a huge amount of damage in just 4 seconds.

Shadow portal can make a really good substitute for a mesmer when used properly, though only allowing 5 people. Should each thief carry one? it can help get zergs from point A to point B very quickly.

The remaining venoms can be used to boost the damage output of heavy condi reliant parties, apply them to a scourge? Watch what happens.

I tend to think outside the box when commanding, while I understand the meta has its place? I think people often understate the potential of each class and what they can bring to the table.

This is Mistwalker Sirii of Blacktide/Piken Square, signing out.

Bro i like to play as thief zerg but need a good build, can you show or pass yours i would love to see it

Op proposed a novel idea about Soulbeast being useful in WVW, then suggested thief, and well, they are useful and are used, daredevil in particular as it have nasty aoe approach, venoms etc, so i dare to push the idea even further by doubling down on his initial ranger(druid aint no ranger) talking point, and before writing it off just hear me out: 

Reminder:

2 years later...

Might be relevant, or not 🤷‍♂️

18 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Reminder:

2 years later...

Might be relevant, or not 🤷‍♂️

Well said.

You know why no one has made a build for thief in zerg fight? because they all make stealth builds lol. most thief players want  to be sneaky and snipe people. zerg fight were never in their mind. if someone good at making build were to look into it, pretty sure they can come up with a healing thief build

On 12/31/2023 at 3:59 PM, SweetPotato.7456 said:

You know why no one has made a build for thief in zerg fight? because they all make stealth builds lol. most thief players want  to be sneaky and snipe people. zerg fight were never in their mind. if someone good at making build were to look into it, pretty sure they can come up with a healing thief build

You can take a lightly adjusted condi or condi/alacryity raid build for Specter from Snowcrows and fit right into a zerg. Other builds can hang even if they're not great on utility. If you really want to go hard with healing you can stat for it but most of the time I just switch from Larcenous Torment to Traversing Dusk and Strength of Shadows to Shadestep and then replace Skale Venom for Well of Bounty. 

You can take healing stat and top shelf Shadow Arts if the groups you're rolling with are struggling but usually that's enough. I still rather keep the condi a threat if it's not cleared, especially since Rot Wallow Venom can compound them if you're catching the right allies in that radius.

Only thing that will hold you back on a thief zerg build is not scoping out the area consistently and reading body language. Scepter and Shroud skills with movement animations, Wells, and Shadowsteps make it feel like a violent Dance Dance Revolution game which is one of the best vibes after a day but you'll get scrambled fast if you're not getting ahead of everyone in whatever lane you're fighting on.

Thief support builds do exist but they take more effort for what others classes press in 2 buttons. The main problem is that Specter can only really boost one person while the meta classes will boost 4 with zero effort. And if the zerg pirate ships, same applies to damage builds but even worse. Maybe if they're really bad you can spray them with shortbow 4 but there's too much projectile hate.

Sometimes for kicks I just pocket the commander with specter barrier. You don't need to be in their squad to do this, so it's pretty convenient and it's very effective in protecting them from pin snipe even if it's just breaking target for half a second. Of course, if the commander built themselves super tanky, it may be better to pocket one of their dps that fall out of line instead.

The ranged f1 is sometimes good for the stun/boon strip and can be used to train down a single target. Unfortunately that requires coordination.