Thief, WvW's most understated class for Zerg fights — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home WvW

Thief, WvW's most understated class for Zerg fights

Dravvi.3146Dravvi.3146 Member ✭✭

Once upon a time I brought up a PoV commanders on TC or Piken square really hated, even thinking of it made people either rage or say I was stupid. But tbh when you think deeper on it, thief does have some pretty serious untapped potential in WvW Zergs.

Dravvi at it again I know, well let me dive into this.

Much like soulbeast is in my not so humble opinion one of WvW's most valuable classes (to which I invite alot of them to my squads and am currently smashing desolation by doing so), I believe with the right builds and the right state of mind. Thiefs can bring some REALLY useful buffs to the party and even more? They can be devastating in Zerg fights.

Skelk venom can make a huge difference in zergs, when you apply that venom to your entire party that is a extra free heal for all 5 players over the next 5 attacks for a base of 1200 HP per attack. Might not seem like much but every bit counts.

Missing scrappers? Shadow refuge can be a major boon to everyone in your party, stealth your party for a few seconds and jump right into the middle of the fight.

Pitfall and Seal Area are two insanely good CC abilities that can be used to give the upper edge to players in zerg fights, though they take a short time to arm? if placed properly they can descimate players in choke points in a matter of seconds.

One of my favorite abilities on thief is dagger storm, it's very strong and very underused. Over dagger storm's duration those daggers flying out in every direction bounce off enemy targets and the thief evades, this can give thiefs a upper edge in zerg fights where enemies are clustered. One thief per party in a 25+ person zerg with that equipped can be a huge amount of damage in just 4 seconds.

Shadow portal can make a really good substitute for a mesmer when used properly, though only allowing 5 people. Should each thief carry one? it can help get zergs from point A to point B very quickly.

The remaining venoms can be used to boost the damage output of heavy condi reliant parties, apply them to a scourge? Watch what happens.

I tend to think outside the box when commanding, while I understand the meta has its place? I think people often understate the potential of each class and what they can bring to the table.

This is Mistwalker Sirii of Blacktide/Piken Square, signing out.

Comments

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You kind of have to build into venoms though and that takes utility and trait slots.
    Maybe drop Shadow Refuge and Venoms and take Shadow Savior if you want to soft heal a group, Death's Retreat and Infiltrators Arrow are both considered Shadowsteps. I think you might rather just have more takedown potential though with enough Health to stick around and cover people. Then you can take Pitfall, which is super fun, but try to mask your drop a little.
    I feel like people just kind of wait out Dagger Storm. Basilik Venom is nice if you can connect a Stolen Skill on a squad drivers support and maybe lock them up when they go into a Stealth rush. DS is alright though if there aren't many Whirling Axes to grab.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • revs spike for 10k +
    in zergs u typically have 10 + revs
    with all this dmg upfront in ur face u rly think vemons will do anything for heal
    corrupts bombs strip 15 + stacks of stab insta
    immob get cleasnsed by scrapper gods
    theres a solid reason only few players play gimmick classes like stafff thief and immob beast , reason beeing :
    in 40+ man figts these classes succk and have small vallue
    ofc very few players manage to actually get some vallue out of them
    meta classes are much more profitable in the hands of common players cause safer gameplay , safer results

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Do NOT drop Shadow Refuge over stealth fields; it'll cause people to de-stealth if they move out of it.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2021

    No mention of Scorpion Wiring strays?
    Disappointing.

    @kash.9213 said:
    I feel like people just kind of wait out Dagger Storm. Basilik Venom is nice if you can connect a Stolen Skill on a squad drivers support and maybe lock them up when they go into a Stealth rush. DS is alright though if there aren't many Whirling Axes to grab.

    My favourite thing is actually to Shadowstep into enemy clump and drop Smokescreen followed up by Daggerstorm, then Shadow Return once it's over.
    Blinds for everyone, and impossible to retaliate against because of DS Evade combined with Smokescreen Proj hate.

    When I was using Trailblazer condi I would either use Engi's stolen skill (The Ethereal field gunk) or Choking Gas.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Lmao yes yes teef is amazing in zergs, every zerg be full of em for a reason.

  • scerevisiae.1972scerevisiae.1972 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2021

    @MysteryDude.1572 said:
    revs spike for 10k +
    in zergs u typically have 10 + revs
    with all this dmg upfront in ur face u rly think vemons will do anything for heal
    corrupts bombs strip 15 + stacks of stab insta
    immob get cleasnsed by scrapper gods
    theres a solid reason only few players play gimmick classes like stafff thief and immob beast , reason beeing :
    in 40+ man figts these classes succk and have small vallue
    ofc very few players manage to actually get some vallue out of them
    meta classes are much more profitable in the hands of common players cause safer gameplay , safer results

    so your argument is, why bother healing or applying boons? mmm ok...

    EVERY bit of class utility counts.

    meta classes are just lowest-common-denominator builds that can get results no matter how bad the player. metabattle openly states this on their about page - https://metabattle.com/wiki/MetaBattle:About -- "[meta builds] must be great in the hands of any player", ie: skill floor must be low.

    higher skill players can and will get better results on classes with high(er) utility and higher skill ceilings, which are usually not "meta".

    staff daredevil is a great example of a high skill floor, high skill ceiling spec that can be extremely effective in the right hands as it can dish out high damage, especially to squishy DPS backliners, while remaining very hard to kill, as well as good area denial and dmg mitigation through area blinds, poison fields and area weakness.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think you're underestimating how much of the current meta is driven by the ability to pre-engage at 1200 range, specifically with high-burst non-reflectable AOE attacks.

    Staff daredevil can do a pretty decent imitation of a Phase Smash + COR spike with Shadowstep Vault-Vault-Vault combo but that's limited by the high Shadowstep cooldown. That's… not bad, but situational.

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2021

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Lmao yes yes teef is amazing in zergs, every zerg be full of em for a reason.

    Every zerg isnt full of them because people like Sustain / share blobs because its more effective when it comes to healing and surviving and its Much easier to play and survive in for the average player. You could have blobs made up of about,everything. But the playerbase and the mindset of players will not allow this from happening.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Lmao yes yes teef is amazing in zergs, every zerg be full of em for a reason.

    Every zerg isnt full of them because people like Sustain / share blobs because its more effective when it comes to healing and surviving and its Much easier to play and survive in for the average player. You could have blobs made up of about,everything. But the playerbase and the mindset of players will not allow this from happening.

    Yup, that comment went right over your head lol

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    No mention of Scorpion Wiring strays?
    Disappointing.

    @kash.9213 said:
    I feel like people just kind of wait out Dagger Storm. Basilik Venom is nice if you can connect a Stolen Skill on a squad drivers support and maybe lock them up when they go into a Stealth rush. DS is alright though if there aren't many Whirling Axes to grab.

    My favourite thing is actually to Shadowstep into enemy clump and drop Smokescreen followed up by Daggerstorm, then Shadow Return once it's over.
    Blinds for everyone, and impossible to retaliate against because of DS Evade combined with Smokescreen Proj hate.

    When I was using Trailblazer condi I would either use Engi's stolen skill (The Ethereal field gunk) or Choking Gas.

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    No mention of Scorpion Wiring strays?
    Disappointing.

    @kash.9213 said:
    I feel like people just kind of wait out Dagger Storm. Basilik Venom is nice if you can connect a Stolen Skill on a squad drivers support and maybe lock them up when they go into a Stealth rush. DS is alright though if there aren't many Whirling Axes to grab.

    My favourite thing is actually to Shadowstep into enemy clump and drop Smokescreen followed up by Daggerstorm, then Shadow Return once it's over.
    Blinds for everyone, and impossible to retaliate against because of DS Evade combined with Smokescreen Proj hate.

    When I was using Trailblazer condi I would either use Engi's stolen skill (The Ethereal field gunk) or Choking Gas.

    That must be fun to hit at the back end of a group or to bust up siege or something. Cloaked in Shadow would clutch.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Shocking aura and any ground lines disrupt daggerstorm and staff skills which is the biggest reason staff thief fell out of play. A lot of groups run staff guardians (fb+dh/core), staff eles, p/sh scrappers, and/or aura tempests right now which hurts how viable it is.

    To be effective with it you need to stay on tag for stability, limiting how much damage you can do if your group isn't able to push into melee range reliably. You can get some value out of shortbow 4 on downs (maybe with an absorption sigil?), you could try focusing downed/out of position targets, or you could try to yeet into their backline with shadowstep.

    But the bigger the enemy group, the less that these options are viable. More people=more unavoidable CC, and the rng starts working against you hard. Maybe you crit for 15k on multiple people, maybe you get locked in an animation and eat 8 hits of breach that downs you instantly. Maybe you get immobilized and simply explode.

    So you end up with a class that's got good power spike damage for squads of up to 30-35, then it falls off hard. Other dps are pretty much guaranteed to land all their aoes on 5 targets with large groups while the inverse is true for thief. It takes a long time to become proficient with the class as well, so it's not like there's a good reason to play it in zergs. It works great in gvgs/smallscale though

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2021

    I find offmeta builds such as this to be pretty decent in open field if they have a tail, but it becomes very ineffective in pirate ship/keep defense scenarios. So if your group is mostly staring at the other side waiting for the other side to screw up, you shouldn't join that fight, although you probably shouldn't anyways.

    Also stuff like attacking SM or defending hills inner is basically impossible because you have to wade through way too much aoes and siege unless you have a party that gives support.

  • mistsim.2748mistsim.2748 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 11, 2021

    @MysteryDude.1572 said:
    immob get cleasnsed by scrapper gods
    theres a solid reason only few players play gimmick classes like stafff thief and immob beast ,

    No it doesn't, at least not always and not on the retreats for regroup. Only a bad would burn out his 3 immobs on the first engage. Regardless, a Marauder SB doesn't even need to immobilize. It has the highest spike in the game so just running it for DPS is worthwhile. I have multiple backliners dead at my feet in these 40v40 zerg fights, just from my Maul + Prelude Lash +WD quickness combo. Stab and cleanse isn't 24/7, and when it's not, I'll be there omnoming your backliners.

    Is it easier to do insane amounts of aoe damage from 1200 on my core Marauder guard? Of course, but he doesn't have any effective CC. And you can do larger spikes with the Immobeast...if you are positioned correctly.

    Ultimately, it all depends on how good you are. And the Immobeast (or even the Immob Druid) is already a desired slot for a lot of guilds.