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There is already a big problem with your patch- here’s what you should’ve done

RedAvenged.5217RedAvenged.5217 Member ✭✭✭

Sigil of transference is broken in that you can use it for ex. Glyph rezzing target(s) at 1% hp and with poison- which will cause problems. Also it’s basically a buff for scourge in that with avatars it’s crazy sustain and damage are there but with more damage now.

The real solution was make these bunker builds a tiny bit less tanky, but get rid of the part that makes them lack counter play which in scourges case is the damage. So, bring menders back with power and precision stats swapped and reduce secondary stats from 500 to 400 like you did with paladins.

This way you have a designated support amulet, that now does little damage and you also sacrifice some sustain compared to others for taking it. Also this will leave options while making the game more fun compared to introducing cancer options that will break the game like we just did.

Comments

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    everyones too busy cheering the removal of something they didn't like to hear anything else

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    In GW1 you picked all 8 skills on your skillbar. In random arenas, most builds used 7 skills, because the 8th was reserved for Resurrection Signet. Let's just pretend we're playing GW1. Except only half the classes are allowed to use it. And it's useable more than once. And it does not incur a penality like signetting some in GW1 did....

    Could someone enlighten me, why do we have revive skills and traits in this game at all?

    Rallying in GW1 is a lot more than the poor picture you make of it. Also more than half of GW2's profession are "allowed" to take rallying skills/traits.

    Paragon, monk and ritualist allowed to take something else than resurection signet to many builds varying from range to melee to aoe or simply single target. Some of the rallying skills being on very low CD.

    Here, the list:
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Resurrection

    So, to answer your question, I'd say it's pretty much consistent with the idea that those type of skills were shared throught the "unique" system of double class of GW1. As for GW2, apart from revenant and thiefs, all professions have skills/traits dedicated to rallying (and I wouldn't be surprised if both those professions were given mean to rally allies in futur e-specs).

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    In GW1 you picked all 8 skills on your skillbar. In random arenas, most builds used 7 skills, because the 8th was reserved for Resurrection Signet. Let's just pretend we're playing GW1. Except only half the classes are allowed to use it. And it's useable more than once. And it does not incur a penality like signetting some in GW1 did....

    Could someone enlighten me, why do we have revive skills and traits in this game at all?

    ^ That is exactly what is happening right now.

    The problem was never this bad, but after the removal of mender/marshal and addition of transference, there really is a big problem where some classes are not able to run viable builds that use their given revive feature whilst other classes are able to run very viable builds that very easily & conveniently can make use of their revive feature + transference.

    I'll say it again, this is creating too much of a disparity of difference between what is viable and what is not at competitive levels, and who has the REAL sustain and who doesn't, which is power reviving.

    This problem goes beyond general class balance about some class dealing too much damage or having a bit too much sustain. No no, this is much more foundational and core of a problem than the normal discussions. This revive power thing being allowed to half the classes and denied the other half needs to be fixed ASAP. This problem might actually segregate "pvp classes" from "non-pvp classes" if they don't tend to this.

  • snoow.1694snoow.1694 Member ✭✭✭

    @RedAvenged.5217 said:
    Sigil of transference is broken in that you can use it for ex. Glyph rezzing target(s) at 1% hp and with poison- which will cause problems. Also it’s basically a buff for scourge in that with avatars it’s crazy sustain and damage are there but with more damage now.

    The real solution was make these bunker builds a tiny bit less tanky, but get rid of the part that makes them lack counter play which in scourges case is the damage. So, bring menders back with power and precision stats swapped and reduce secondary stats from 500 to 400 like you did with paladins.

    This way you have a designated support amulet, that now does little damage and you also sacrifice some sustain compared to others for taking it. Also this will leave options while making the game more fun compared to introducing cancer options that will break the game like we just did.

    Tested it yesterday and while you get a boost, you don‘t revive an ally fully with signet if they are low and have poison

    Balance Patch every 6 weeks kappa

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    In GW1 you picked all 8 skills on your skillbar. In random arenas, most builds used 7 skills, because the 8th was reserved for Resurrection Signet. Let's just pretend we're playing GW1. Except only half the classes are allowed to use it. And it's useable more than once. And it does not incur a penality like signetting some in GW1 did....

    Could someone enlighten me, why do we have revive skills and traits in this game at all?

    Rallying in GW1 is a lot more than the poor picture you make of it. Also more than half of GW2's profession are "allowed" to take rallying skills/traits.

    Paragon, monk and ritualist allowed to take something else than resurection signet to many builds varying from range to melee to aoe or simply single target. Some of the rallying skills being on very low CD.

    Here, the list:
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Resurrection

    So, to answer your question, I'd say it's pretty much consistent with the idea that those type of skills were shared throught the "unique" system of double class of GW1. As for GW2, apart from revenant and thiefs, all professions have skills/traits dedicated to rallying (and I wouldn't be surprised if both those professions were given mean to rally allies in futur e-specs).

    4 classes have viable skills to instantly rally: guardian, elementalist, necromancer, warrior. The rest can easily be countered, or outright useless like the ranger spirit elite.
    Fun fact, the first 3 have traits to buff reviving aswell. So even when the most problematic revives are on CD, they can still just press F and get the downed up faster than anything else in this game.
    And everything apart from revenant and warrior has traits/skills to boost revive attempts in some way. Now some of these are absolutely useless, like Merciful Ambush that thieves could use, you weren't aware of it's existence because you don't have to be.

    So my main gripe with this whole revive thing in GW2 is that it's balanced extremely poorly. Some revive skills/traits are making it impossible to push kills, while others are so bad people don't even know they exist. In GW1 we had organised 8v8 with organised spikes, and instant deaths. Resurrection skills have a place to exist in such an enviroment, however in GW2... you finally manage to kill something after 2 minutes of real time suffering, and POOF they are up again with 100% health because you wasted all your CC on pressuring them into downstate.
    Without the oneshot meta, we don't need instant revives. Even revival enchancing traits are pretty bad for a slow meta what we have right now.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    this is not problem, this is fun. No one wait some magic balance or fair fight from start. Just get fun and don't disturb others do same.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    In GW1 you picked all 8 skills on your skillbar. In random arenas, most builds used 7 skills, because the 8th was reserved for Resurrection Signet. Let's just pretend we're playing GW1. Except only half the classes are allowed to use it. And it's useable more than once. And it does not incur a penality like signetting some in GW1 did....

    Could someone enlighten me, why do we have revive skills and traits in this game at all?

    Because the revive skills arent the issue, and they havent been before. The issue is that damage is too low, so res skills become busted.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    4 classes have viable skills to instantly rally: guardian, elementalist, necromancer, warrior. The rest can easily be countered, or outright useless like the ranger spirit elite.
    Fun fact, the first 3 have traits to buff reviving aswell. So even when the most problematic revives are on CD, they can still just press F and get the downed up faster than anything else in this game.
    And everything apart from revenant and warrior has traits/skills to boost revive attempts in some way. Now some of these are absolutely useless, like Merciful Ambush that thieves could use, you weren't aware of it's existence because you don't have to be.

    So my main gripe with this whole revive thing in GW2 is that it's balanced extremely poorly. Some revive skills/traits are making it impossible to push kills, while others are so bad people don't even know they exist. In GW1 we had organised 8v8 with organised spikes, and instant deaths. Resurrection skills have a place to exist in such an enviroment, however in GW2... you finally manage to kill something after 2 minutes of real time suffering, and POOF they are up again with 100% health because you wasted all your CC on pressuring them into downstate.
    Without the oneshot meta, we don't need instant revives. Even revival enchancing traits are pretty bad for a slow meta what we have right now.

    Look, I don't want to be mean, but this is supposed to be teamplay. Don't tell me that your own team can't interrupt the one that use the revive skill and put it into a 60-180s CD. How fast can toss elixir R + fonction gyro rally someone? Illusion of life isn't the most perfect rallying skill but it does it's work. Thief actually do have a rallying trait that make use of stealth (And it's not easy to stomp a stealthed downed foe). Rangers do have serch and rescue! and allies' aid on top of the spirit when it come to rallying, it is not "nothing".

    I understand that it's frustrating to miss a kill after working your *ss to down your foe but it's a multiplayer game and most importantly a team based gamemode. It's a given that the allies of your downed foe will work their *ss to hinder you from killing their teammate. The "instant" rally still have a cast time, which doesn't make it "instant".

    If you want that badly to talk about GW1, truth is that it was excruatingly hard to kill the other team due to the healers (most specifically, the monks). It's to the point that some matchs were unending and GW2 devs thought it would be better to not have a profession dedicated to healing in GW2 when they designed it. Even now, GW2's healer are, at best, poor at their job compared to what monks could do in GW1. You talk about spiking in GW1 but, let's be honest, nowaday you seldom see a team that focus a coordinated spike on a foe in sPvP in GW2 (communication between players is bad at best, toxic at worse. You can't expect anything like a GW1's spike in this game).

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    4 classes have viable skills to instantly rally: guardian, elementalist, necromancer, warrior. The rest can easily be countered, or outright useless like the ranger spirit elite.
    Fun fact, the first 3 have traits to buff reviving aswell. So even when the most problematic revives are on CD, they can still just press F and get the downed up faster than anything else in this game.
    And everything apart from revenant and warrior has traits/skills to boost revive attempts in some way. Now some of these are absolutely useless, like Merciful Ambush that thieves could use, you weren't aware of it's existence because you don't have to be.

    So my main gripe with this whole revive thing in GW2 is that it's balanced extremely poorly. Some revive skills/traits are making it impossible to push kills, while others are so bad people don't even know they exist. In GW1 we had organised 8v8 with organised spikes, and instant deaths. Resurrection skills have a place to exist in such an enviroment, however in GW2... you finally manage to kill something after 2 minutes of real time suffering, and POOF they are up again with 100% health because you wasted all your CC on pressuring them into downstate.
    Without the oneshot meta, we don't need instant revives. Even revival enchancing traits are pretty bad for a slow meta what we have right now.

    Look, I don't want to be mean, but this is supposed to be teamplay. Don't tell me that your own team can't interrupt the one that use the revive skill and put it into a 60-180s CD. How fast can toss elixir R + fonction gyro rally someone? Illusion of life isn't the most perfect rallying skill but it does it's work. Thief actually do have a rallying trait that make use of stealth (And it's not easy to stomp a stealthed downed foe). Rangers do have serch and rescue! and allies' aid on top of the spirit when it come to rallying, it is not "nothing".

    I understand that it's frustrating to miss a kill after working your *ss to down your foe but it's a multiplayer game and most importantly a team based gamemode. It's a given that the allies of your downed foe will work their *ss to hinder you from killing their teammate. The "instant" rally still have a cast time, which doesn't make it "instant".

    If you want that badly to talk about GW1, truth is that it was excruatingly hard to kill the other team due to the healers (most specifically, the monks). It's to the point that some matchs were unending and GW2 devs thought it would be better to not have a profession dedicated to healing in GW2 when they designed it. Even now, GW2's healer are, at best, poor at their job compared to what monks could do in GW1. You talk about spiking in GW1 but, let's be honest, nowaday you seldom see a team that focus a coordinated spike on a foe in sPvP in GW2 (communication between players is bad at best, toxic at worse. You can't expect anything like a GW1's spike in this game).

    The main gamemode is ranked conquest. You're put into a team with 3 or 4 randoms, there is no option to join a voicechat, this is the level they want us to play on. So this is the level they have to balance for.
    The semi-coordinated chaos of ranked is where kills should happen. And a-net managed to make instant revives even stronger in an attempt to make the game faster, which pretty much makes the other effects of the patch void.
    My point is: in a game where oneshots connect left and right, resurrection skills are part of the dynamism of the battle. In a game where fights are slow and painful, resurrection skills are conserving an extremely unfun situation. Of course there is a grey area between these two, but GW2 is clearly the latter for the last 14 month. So either get balance back to where it was in 2017(pre-PoF patch), or get rid of resurrection skills alltogheter(no idea how that would work with PvE though, so I guess time to actually balance the gamemode lol).

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    4 classes have viable skills to instantly rally: guardian, elementalist, necromancer, warrior. The rest can easily be countered, or outright useless like the ranger spirit elite.
    Fun fact, the first 3 have traits to buff reviving aswell. So even when the most problematic revives are on CD, they can still just press F and get the downed up faster than anything else in this game.
    And everything apart from revenant and warrior has traits/skills to boost revive attempts in some way. Now some of these are absolutely useless, like Merciful Ambush that thieves could use, you weren't aware of it's existence because you don't have to be.

    So my main gripe with this whole revive thing in GW2 is that it's balanced extremely poorly. Some revive skills/traits are making it impossible to push kills, while others are so bad people don't even know they exist. In GW1 we had organised 8v8 with organised spikes, and instant deaths. Resurrection skills have a place to exist in such an enviroment, however in GW2... you finally manage to kill something after 2 minutes of real time suffering, and POOF they are up again with 100% health because you wasted all your CC on pressuring them into downstate.
    Without the oneshot meta, we don't need instant revives. Even revival enchancing traits are pretty bad for a slow meta what we have right now.

    Look, I don't want to be mean, but this is supposed to be teamplay. Don't tell me that your own team can't interrupt the one that use the revive skill and put it into a 60-180s CD.

    Do you even play 2v2 and 3v3s? The very same classes that have a lot of stab are the ones with applicable revive skills and usually a lot of AoE CC to further ensure the use of the revive. The other classes who have to run builds that cannot use their respective revive skills are out of luck here. ALL classes/builds can CC people out of stomps & revives, but only half the classes can run viable builds and actually use their revive traits/utilities. Stacks of 3 dudes with power reviving definitely wins against stacks of 3 dudes without power revives. Not sure how you haven't noticed this.

    How fast can toss elixir R + fonction gyro rally someone? Illusion of life isn't the most perfect rallying skill but it does it's work. Thief actually do have a rallying trait that make use of stealth (And it's not easy to stomp a stealthed downed foe). Rangers do have serch and rescue! and allies' aid on top of the spirit when it come to rallying, it is not "nothing".

    ^ That's a bunch of hypothetical garbage. Ranger as an example, cannot run its revive traits/elite utility. It would need to run a build that was completely useless in defending nodes and in combat in general, to be able to use those abilities. The elite spirit as example, is a spirit with less health than a necro minion that dies immediately when it is attacked. This is what I'm talking about. For half the classes in the game, it is not realistic to run revive traits/utilities while having a functional build. But the other half of the classes can run very viable builds, sometimes top 3 meta, and make easy convenient use of revive traits/utilities.

    I understand that it's frustrating to miss a kill after working your *ss to down your foe but it's a multiplayer game and most importantly a team based gamemode. It's a given that the allies of your downed foe will work their *ss to hinder you from killing their teammate. The "instant" rally still have a cast time, which doesn't make it "instant".

    No one is arguing that the game isn't or shouldn't be team play oriented. They are pointing out that revive power is not only too strong right now, but it is also only an option for about half the classes, which is not fair seeing as how potent power reviving is. A 2s cast time for instant revive skills is simply not enough when players have a lot of stab, quickness, and bubbles ect ect around them to make sure the skill works. Some classes can even cheese mode go invuln while they use the revive trait/skill. <- It's too much and it's getting old.

    If you want that badly to talk about GW1, truth is that it was excruatingly hard to kill the other team due to the healers (most specifically, the monks). It's to the point that some matchs were unending and GW2 devs thought it would be better to not have a profession dedicated to healing in GW2 when they designed it. Even now, GW2's healer are, at best, poor at their job compared to what monks could do in GW1. You talk about spiking in GW1 but, let's be honest, nowaday you seldom see a team that focus a coordinated spike on a foe in sPvP in GW2 (communication between players is bad at best, toxic at worse. You can't expect anything like a GW1's spike in this game).

    Yes but now you're talking about actual sustain. No one in this thread was talking about general sustain, they were talking about revives. In GW1 after a res sig was used, it was done. You get 1x chance to use it, then it's done. You had to gain morale boosts to recharge signet of res, which didn't happen often at all. And every class could select it, not just half of them.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    I'm cool with some classes have better rez power than others, but for the ones that don't it would be nice if there was a better way to counteract it.

    For example, if ranger had a a trait in wilderness survival called "lethal toxin" that made downstate bodies take additional %hp damage while poisoned and rez 66% slower.
    Mesmer had a glamor that they could put around downed bodies that would invert the effects of rez skills and cause them to finish allies instead, ect.

    That would be cool.

  • RedAvenged.5217RedAvenged.5217 Member ✭✭✭

    @snoow.1694 said:

    @RedAvenged.5217 said:
    Sigil of transference is broken in that you can use it for ex. Glyph rezzing target(s) at 1% hp and with poison- which will cause problems. Also it’s basically a buff for scourge in that with avatars it’s crazy sustain and damage are there but with more damage now.

    The real solution was make these bunker builds a tiny bit less tanky, but get rid of the part that makes them lack counter play which in scourges case is the damage. So, bring menders back with power and precision stats swapped and reduce secondary stats from 500 to 400 like you did with paladins.

    This way you have a designated support amulet, that now does little damage and you also sacrifice some sustain compared to others for taking it. Also this will leave options while making the game more fun compared to introducing cancer options that will break the game like we just did.

    Tested it yesterday and while you get a boost, you don‘t revive an ally fully with signet if they are low and have poison

    Most of the time they don’t get up with 90-99% if they don’t get up, this will almost always get them up. And yeah it’s busted, not gonna argue about exact numbers. There’s also additional modifiers you can put on top of this sigil too.

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    poison decrease healing by 33% which means, casting rez skill on a poisoned target would heal for 66%
    with sigil 20%healing increase, shouldnt that be 79% healing on rez skill?..
    which means even with sigil if you are poisoned and 1%, u don't get rezzed unless it's water glyph

    but tbh, i think healer should be having stronger support skills if specced for it.
    poison doesnt need condition damage to reduce healer's effectiveness to begin with.
    they are using a utility slot and 2 sigil slot for rez anyway.

    also there's barely any poison nowadays, not like back then when every single build including power has doom slotted in.

  • RedAvenged.5217RedAvenged.5217 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Got a bit of a problem with this post here and I think we need to talk about it;

    As much as you hate revive skills, players have to slot it and yet deal with the fact self healing has been nerfed.

    If the support has less self sustain that means it should be focused for a kill and it's under the knowledge that those revive skill can also be interrupted by other players.

    Having the skill work more consistently is also something supports deserve given how the latter of their healing was already weak under pressure for a while, nobody can actually keep someone healed to the point where they don't die right away under coordinated pressure, only those revive skills can make the difference and if not for picking something else.

    It's also time we stop hating on players that don't die, players do die and with effort at it. Balance isn't easy to tip off when two good teams match up, it's almost like people forgot what it meant to be balanced with all the stuff this gamemode has gone through.

    Having to actually chase and finish off kills after a good burst isn't anything out of the ordinary, in fact with all the changes from lately. Even auto attacks finally got a purpose rather than having everything just be burst this burst that gg, the game feels well rounded and frustration to not capitalize on kills is something we all have to deal with which is not a lack of damage but the assertion under the fact you've outplayed and have to finish off.

    I've been making the same mistake myself thinking that I can just damage and expect people to be dead with my back turned, doesn't always work like that now. It's time to adapt.

    If 2 supports is a problem on one node, it's clear that there's rotation issues.

    If Scourge is an issue, they should look at soft CC conditions they haven't touched much of while most professions had their clear numbers lowered, it's also something with Necromancer in general that there's too many condis to re-apply with ease when you just cleared 5 of em like 4 times in a row, Reaper greatly benefits from the overabundance too which it doesn't need for the damage that's already good.

    I don’t hate anything. I however did make a preliminary analysis of what the patch would do, ask the opinions of high rated players and recheck on all of that after the patch to see what people think and/or what they’ll run as meta. That’s what I based the post off of.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    If you want that badly to talk about GW1, truth is that it was excruatingly hard to kill the other team due to the healers (most specifically, the monks). It's to the point that some matchs were unending and GW2 devs thought it would be better to not have a profession dedicated to healing in GW2 when they designed it. Even now, GW2's healer are, at best, poor at their job compared to what monks could do in GW1. You talk about spiking in GW1 but, let's be honest, nowaday you seldom see a team that focus a coordinated spike on a foe in sPvP in GW2 (communication between players is bad at best, toxic at worse. You can't expect anything like a GW1's spike in this game).

    Yes but now you're talking about actual sustain. No one in this thread was talking about general sustain, they were talking about revives. In GW1 after a res sig was used, it was done. You get 1x chance to use it, then it's done. You had to gain morale boosts to recharge signet of res, which didn't happen often at all. And every class could select it, not just half of them.

    And I'll repeat again, in GW1 there is many more skills than the rez signet that can rez. Skills with as low as 5 seconds CD. Why do you obsess with rez signet? There were 3 professions out of 10 providing you with a way to rally allies with shorter CD on average than what you find in GW2.

    The list is right there: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Resurrection

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RedAvenged.5217 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Got a bit of a problem with this post here and I think we need to talk about it;

    As much as you hate revive skills, players have to slot it and yet deal with the fact self healing has been nerfed.

    If the support has less self sustain that means it should be focused for a kill and it's under the knowledge that those revive skill can also be interrupted by other players.

    Having the skill work more consistently is also something supports deserve given how the latter of their healing was already weak under pressure for a while, nobody can actually keep someone healed to the point where they don't die right away under coordinated pressure, only those revive skills can make the difference and if not for picking something else.

    It's also time we stop hating on players that don't die, players do die and with effort at it. Balance isn't easy to tip off when two good teams match up, it's almost like people forgot what it meant to be balanced with all the stuff this gamemode has gone through.

    Having to actually chase and finish off kills after a good burst isn't anything out of the ordinary, in fact with all the changes from lately. Even auto attacks finally got a purpose rather than having everything just be burst this burst that gg, the game feels well rounded and frustration to not capitalize on kills is something we all have to deal with which is not a lack of damage but the assertion under the fact you've outplayed and have to finish off.

    I've been making the same mistake myself thinking that I can just damage and expect people to be dead with my back turned, doesn't always work like that now. It's time to adapt.

    If 2 supports is a problem on one node, it's clear that there's rotation issues.

    If Scourge is an issue, they should look at soft CC conditions they haven't touched much of while most professions had their clear numbers lowered, it's also something with Necromancer in general that there's too many condis to re-apply with ease when you just cleared 5 of em like 4 times in a row, Reaper greatly benefits from the overabundance too which it doesn't need for the damage that's already good.

    I don’t hate anything. I however did make a preliminary analysis of what the patch would do, ask the opinions of high rated players and recheck on all of that after the patch to see what people think and/or what they’ll run as meta. That’s what I based the post off of.

    We can't change everything forever though can we? Even if something is meta now, it isn't as oppressive as it was few years prior, just slightly easier to play while other things do have relevance now under the requirement of better player competence.

    It's hard to find anything that is overpowered right now which is a good thing. If Scourge had it any harder, we wouldn't see it at all like that one time the overall playerbase had agree that it was dead but really just not as easy to play.

    I personally don't see it as an issue right now so giving it some slack would be appreciated so we can see things unfold again.

    Let's not forget that broken strats aren't always broken, bad match ups do exists and they've gained importance as we keep adjusting.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    If you want that badly to talk about GW1, truth is that it was excruatingly hard to kill the other team due to the healers (most specifically, the monks). It's to the point that some matchs were unending and GW2 devs thought it would be better to not have a profession dedicated to healing in GW2 when they designed it. Even now, GW2's healer are, at best, poor at their job compared to what monks could do in GW1. You talk about spiking in GW1 but, let's be honest, nowaday you seldom see a team that focus a coordinated spike on a foe in sPvP in GW2 (communication between players is bad at best, toxic at worse. You can't expect anything like a GW1's spike in this game).

    Yes but now you're talking about actual sustain. No one in this thread was talking about general sustain, they were talking about revives. In GW1 after a res sig was used, it was done. You get 1x chance to use it, then it's done. You had to gain morale boosts to recharge signet of res, which didn't happen often at all. And every class could select it, not just half of them.

    And I'll repeat again, in GW1 there is many more skills than the rez signet that can rez. Skills with as low as 5 seconds CD. Why do you obsess with rez signet? There were 3 professions out of 10 providing you with a way to rally allies with shorter CD on average than what you find in GW2.

    The list is right there: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Resurrection

    My good dude you need to reread what @Bazsi.2734 and I have said. Your responses seem like you're missing the point entirely.

    @Bazsi.2734 was simply pointing out that in GW1 any class/build could select Res Sig which required no attribute allocation to be effective. Revive power in this aspect was balanced between all classes due to this. Yes there were other res skills that some classes had, but those skills required heavy attribute allocation in a build to be effective at all and even if you did that, those skills came with serious high risk medium reward at best type of penalties.

    For example:

    1. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Death_Pact_Signet If you res him and he dies again, then you also automatically die. This is seriously high risk low reward.
    2. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Resurrection_Chant This is a 6 second cast time. Ever try using a 6s cast skill when GW1 Mesmers were present?
    3. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Signet_of_Return Even with 20 leadership, this skill at best revives players with only 18% health and 5% energy. If you played GW1 pvp at all, you'd know that this isn't enough resources for any amount of players to get back up off the ground and recover with.
    4. Yada yada the list goes on with other res skills and they all have hefty drawbacks, which is why everyone would bring this https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Resurrection_Signet read it carefully. It requires no attribute allocation to use, every class can bring it, it does a 100% health res with 25% energy. Even though it was only usable once per match or if a rare morale boost happened, this skill was practical to bring and use. Rather than bring high risk medium to low reward class res skills, players would bring this because the person they revived could actually get off the ground and recover when a res sig was used on them.

    So what Bazsi is pointing out is that the very large majority bulk of players and I'm talking 98% of the builds being ran, were using Res Sig. It was a standard of balance, a staple of GW1 balance if you would. Everyone could use it, everyone ran it for obvious reasons, everyone's revive power was the same. And then he compared that to GW2's current state of revive power skewed across the classes which couldn't be more lopsided. A couple good examples would be a Core Necro popping https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Undeath that is only a 1 and a 1/2 second cast time and then he can go into a full shroud to cover the life loss from the sig use. And that's not to mention how the sig itself also passively generates life force, and how popping barriers before using the sig will soak the damage taken from using the sig to begin with. And this signet can be conveniently used on any Necro build and always be a strong solid option to take. This is nothing like a dedicated Monk sacking a slot for Resurrection Chant a 6s cast skill that he'll probably never get to use because he'll always be interrupted, when he could just bring a powerful support tool in its place. Then of course you have other forms of janky res going on in GW2 like Eles going invuln while casting https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glyph_of_Renewal so its 2s cast time won't get interrupted. Dude go read that skill. Go into it and read it and tell me how there is any drawback at all for how unbelievably powerful that skill is. After reading it and reading all the GW1 class res skills I linked, now you understand what Bazsi was saying. GW2 revive skills are stupidly powerful in unnecessary ways and only roughly half the classes in the game even have amazing revive traits/utilities like that, which can be conveniently implemented into viable builds that actually work in pvp. Again, INB4 bringing up Ranger elite spirit because that skill is terrible and impractical to use in every way. That ele skill is a normal utility btw.

    I completely agree with what Bazsi has said and if you can't see it, I have nothing more to say here other than that GW2 revive power is unfairly distributed in lopsided ways to only certain classes and way too strong in general.

  • RedAvenged.5217RedAvenged.5217 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @RedAvenged.5217 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Got a bit of a problem with this post here and I think we need to talk about it;

    As much as you hate revive skills, players have to slot it and yet deal with the fact self healing has been nerfed.

    If the support has less self sustain that means it should be focused for a kill and it's under the knowledge that those revive skill can also be interrupted by other players.

    Having the skill work more consistently is also something supports deserve given how the latter of their healing was already weak under pressure for a while, nobody can actually keep someone healed to the point where they don't die right away under coordinated pressure, only those revive skills can make the difference and if not for picking something else.

    It's also time we stop hating on players that don't die, players do die and with effort at it. Balance isn't easy to tip off when two good teams match up, it's almost like people forgot what it meant to be balanced with all the stuff this gamemode has gone through.

    Having to actually chase and finish off kills after a good burst isn't anything out of the ordinary, in fact with all the changes from lately. Even auto attacks finally got a purpose rather than having everything just be burst this burst that gg, the game feels well rounded and frustration to not capitalize on kills is something we all have to deal with which is not a lack of damage but the assertion under the fact you've outplayed and have to finish off.

    I've been making the same mistake myself thinking that I can just damage and expect people to be dead with my back turned, doesn't always work like that now. It's time to adapt.

    If 2 supports is a problem on one node, it's clear that there's rotation issues.

    If Scourge is an issue, they should look at soft CC conditions they haven't touched much of while most professions had their clear numbers lowered, it's also something with Necromancer in general that there's too many condis to re-apply with ease when you just cleared 5 of em like 4 times in a row, Reaper greatly benefits from the overabundance too which it doesn't need for the damage that's already good.

    I don’t hate anything. I however did make a preliminary analysis of what the patch would do, ask the opinions of high rated players and recheck on all of that after the patch to see what people think and/or what they’ll run as meta. That’s what I based the post off of.

    We can't change everything forever though can we? Even if something is meta now, it isn't as oppressive as it was few years prior, just slightly easier to play while other things do have relevance now under the requirement of better player competence.

    It's hard to find anything that is overpowered right now which is a good thing. If Scourge had it any harder, we wouldn't see it at all like that one time the overall playerbase had agree that it was dead but really just not as easy to play.

    I personally don't see it as an issue right now so giving it some slack would be appreciated so we can see things unfold again.

    Let's not forget that broken strats aren't always broken, bad match ups do exists and they've gained importance as we keep adjusting.

    All high rated players I’ve talked to say scourge is still busted.
    Seems like it’s just you on a lot of stuff you say- but you have been noted

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    4 classes have viable skills to instantly rally: guardian, elementalist, necromancer, warrior. The rest can easily be countered, or outright useless like the ranger spirit elite.
    Fun fact, the first 3 have traits to buff reviving aswell. So even when the most problematic revives are on CD, they can still just press F and get the downed up faster than anything else in this game.
    And everything apart from revenant and warrior has traits/skills to boost revive attempts in some way. Now some of these are absolutely useless, like Merciful Ambush that thieves could use, you weren't aware of it's existence because you don't have to be.

    So my main gripe with this whole revive thing in GW2 is that it's balanced extremely poorly. Some revive skills/traits are making it impossible to push kills, while others are so bad people don't even know they exist. In GW1 we had organised 8v8 with organised spikes, and instant deaths. Resurrection skills have a place to exist in such an enviroment, however in GW2... you finally manage to kill something after 2 minutes of real time suffering, and POOF they are up again with 100% health because you wasted all your CC on pressuring them into downstate.
    Without the oneshot meta, we don't need instant revives. Even revival enchancing traits are pretty bad for a slow meta what we have right now.

    Look, I don't want to be mean, but this is supposed to be teamplay. Don't tell me that your own team can't interrupt the one that use the revive skill and put it into a 60-180s CD. How fast can toss elixir R + fonction gyro rally someone? Illusion of life isn't the most perfect rallying skill but it does it's work. Thief actually do have a rallying trait that make use of stealth (And it's not easy to stomp a stealthed downed foe). Rangers do have serch and rescue! and allies' aid on top of the spirit when it come to rallying, it is not "nothing".

    I understand that it's frustrating to miss a kill after working your *ss to down your foe but it's a multiplayer game and most importantly a team based gamemode. It's a given that the allies of your downed foe will work their *ss to hinder you from killing their teammate. The "instant" rally still have a cast time, which doesn't make it "instant".

    If you want that badly to talk about GW1, truth is that it was excruatingly hard to kill the other team due to the healers (most specifically, the monks). It's to the point that some matchs were unending and GW2 devs thought it would be better to not have a profession dedicated to healing in GW2 when they designed it. Even now, GW2's healer are, at best, poor at their job compared to what monks could do in GW1. You talk about spiking in GW1 but, let's be honest, nowaday you seldom see a team that focus a coordinated spike on a foe in sPvP in GW2 (communication between players is bad at best, toxic at worse. You can't expect anything like a GW1's spike in this game).

    then you have ele getting stability before reviving, or just kiting and reviving from long range, people use persisting blocks to power through interrupts, scourges facetank 30k+ dmg while reviving not giving a kitten, and to down someone you had to use cooldowns in the first place
    mesmer can use 2x feedback. not much one can do about it, rez spam every 30s, thats 84% max HP revive if transference works on it.
    All this kitten does is drains the fun out of the game.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2021

    we should wait a bit, the meta may very well shift and settle. i do think that res skills should require holding your mouse on the target at the end of thr cast, so that you cant teleport away and LOS etc

    // Yanim

  • ellesee.8297ellesee.8297 Member ✭✭✭

    the only issue the patch had was that it didn't contain a removal of AI builds. AI builds should never exist in pvp. ever. in any game.

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2021

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    If you want that badly to talk about GW1, truth is that it was excruatingly hard to kill the other team due to the healers (most specifically, the monks). It's to the point that some matchs were unending and GW2 devs thought it would be better to not have a profession dedicated to healing in GW2 when they designed it. Even now, GW2's healer are, at best, poor at their job compared to what monks could do in GW1. You talk about spiking in GW1 but, let's be honest, nowaday you seldom see a team that focus a coordinated spike on a foe in sPvP in GW2 (communication between players is bad at best, toxic at worse. You can't expect anything like a GW1's spike in this game).

    Yes but now you're talking about actual sustain. No one in this thread was talking about general sustain, they were talking about revives. In GW1 after a res sig was used, it was done. You get 1x chance to use it, then it's done. You had to gain morale boosts to recharge signet of res, which didn't happen often at all. And every class could select it, not just half of them.

    And I'll repeat again, in GW1 there is many more skills than the rez signet that can rez. Skills with as low as 5 seconds CD. Why do you obsess with rez signet? There were 3 professions out of 10 providing you with a way to rally allies with shorter CD on average than what you find in GW2.

    The list is right there: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Resurrection

    Why are you comparing gw1 to gw2, when gw1 is actually more similar to WoW with its playstyle, casting bars and things, lol? CDs are main thing in gw2, but in gw1 its only half of the story, the other half is casting time. Ress skills are 3-6s long, interrupting 1s might be difficult, but try on GvG or HA casting something longer than 2s. You think those mesmers or rangers are there for fun, lol? Hell no.
    Another thing is who was usually taking those abilities. Ress signet could be taken by anyone, so no need for second class, also 100% hp rez so another advantage. But imagine healing class, such as monk or ritu spending their time on casting rez. You know what happens in 8-ppl party when one healer is out for a second and someone is heavily focused with deep wound and things? Its like domino, try to save one, you trade it for another one.

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons
    25.02.2020 edit - Nevermind, now I spam only 29 skill-buttons

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2021

    @Widmo.3186 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    And I'll repeat again, in GW1 there is many more skills than the rez signet that can rez. Skills with as low as 5 seconds CD. Why do you obsess with rez signet? There were 3 professions out of 10 providing you with a way to rally allies with shorter CD on average than what you find in GW2.

    The list is right there: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Resurrection

    Why are you comparing gw1 to gw2?

    Because I'm answering to people that are comparing GW1 and GW2.

    I'm in front of players that try to make it like GW only had rez signet with it's pro and cons. It's not the case. Flesh of my flesh is basically GW2 necromancer's signet on a 10s CD. Vengeance is basically mesmer's illusion of life on a 30s CD. Warrior's banner is the equivalent of _"we shall return!"... etc.

    GW2 is a game with a pace that is a lot faster than GW1's which make shorter cast time on revival skills logical. Let's be clear, the players that rez in GW2 do the same investment than the players that rez in GW1.

  • cgMatt.5162cgMatt.5162 Member ✭✭✭

    Soon the only amulet available in PVP will be Berserkers.