ArcDPS

This is a response for those "elitist people" who use the ArcDPS against those who don't even have the DPS meter on themselves. Don't get me wrong, I am okay with the idea of DPS meters being involved into the mix, but that's only when the DPS meter is being used to monitor your own DPS putout or being in a network matter, where you are able to connect with other DPS meters within your raid group, which means that they've given you permission to actually see their DPS.

Over the last couple of days, there has been a mindset that people are allowed to correct and question people when it came to their DPS, now I didn't give them my permission, nor did I think that they would be allowed to see my DPS without my authority. On that same day, a thief within the fractal group questioned an older veteran woman's DPS in regards that her DPS is low, and yet none of us gave our permission that you can moderate our DPS putout during this fractal run.

Now, don't get me wrong again, use a DPS meter for your own advantage, but don't gang up on someone because you're able to see their damage, during a FRACTAL run... I can understand if you're moderating another's DPS after getting permission, but that was not the case here, and that shouldn't be the case anywhere else. We should be allowed to our own privacy, we should be allowed to have a say with what we are giving permission to reveal within a game.

I know that there are other DPS meters out there, but we shouldn't be forced into a position where someone is given the authority to question my DPS or anyone else's without our permission. We should be able to turn off a setting letting us block anyone from extracting information in regards to our DPS.

P.S. This information is coming off Reddit Forums, which is not OFFICIAL FORUMS for Guild Wars 2. So that also means that the response is NOT an OFFICIAL ArenaNet Green-Light... So technically, doesn't this mean that it is against GW2EULA and Terms of Service, because there's nowhere in the Terms of Service indicating that 3rd-party programs and software is allowed, nor does it say that this product, ArcDPS has been allowed within the agreement.

Here's an YouTube video showing the DPS meter's information. She is not using a DPS meter on her game. I am only using the ArcDPS meter for experimental purposes.

Yes, I really dislike that it can now read even if I am personally not using the addon.I don't mind the addon itself but now it's coming to a point that I either turn the cheek and let someone get rip on in the party. Or try to say something which causes more stress and confusion for everyone.It's gotten bad to point that a lot my friends don't want do anything dungeon, fractals, raid related. Because said DPS meters.

What going on with ArenaNet thinking that Reddit is the way to post and inform people? When not everyone goes to Reddit? I think a clear stance is needed. It needs to be better addressed on the OFFICIAL site here. NOT Reddit or anywhere outside of ArenaNet.

I hope that you guys redo the addon or let us have the choice of letting those folks who use said addon to choose see or not to see my dps. Because I don't have time log in the afternoon when reset hits to deal with more grumpy people or people who are to busy bickering over DPS meters and more. I just want get my runs done. I dislike seeing people get belittled by other people. It's like now do I force myself to go offline mode and turn party chat off. Not be able to talk with my party due to the stress of this addon.

Again dps meters overall is ok for raids IMO. BUT to read my dps when I do not have the addon for you to be able too. YOU ARE COMING INTO MY KOOL-AID AND I DON'T LIKE IT!</3

Unfortunately ArenaNet is currently following inferior policy claiming that combat data is not personal and they can freely send it to 3rd party tools without our knowledge or permission. This approach is disrespectful towards players and may lead to many privacy and even security issues. We've had a discussion about this unfortunately Chris Cleary dropped by only to rephrase the policy without adressing concerns that were brought up. I am devastated about how terrible this whole thing came out to be as I expected much more respect from the developer when player concerns are brought up.

You may find these threads interesting if you want to read about privacy and security concerns around current implementation of DPS meters:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9814/dps-meter-policy-needs-to-be-revised/p1https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/10170/anet-can-you-make-a-dps-meterhttps://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/78v5a9/using_arcdps_is_huge_security_risk_confirmed_by/

Keep in mind reddit thread is vile and you really read comments at your own risk as it lacks discussion standards of official forums.

I am all for your argumentation and I myself see current implementation of this tool as violation of player privacy and security. Good luck with your case, maybe you will be able to reach people responsible for this situation and finally make them sort this out.

It's a double-edged sword that needs proper handling. GM or Dev who can express what is going on with it. I rather come here to know yes and no's of it then on Reddit I agree.
Why is it now recording other people outside the addon user data? This is very scary to know that my privacy being open to some addon that I don't use myself.

i play this game from the launch, and ArcDPS is what we needed from the start, we can finaly see how bad can be some player, you want do High End content fractal T4+CM and Raid) try to play better, im not talking about do the max dps possible, im talking about do your best, and your best cant be less then a healer magi druid, that for me is a istantkick or istantleave, im not a "elitist people", but im tired of ppl that want do High End and do nothing for be more usefull to the other ppl in the party\squad and only say i play how i want

@SoliSnake.9457 said:i play this game from the launch, and ArcDPS is what we needed from the start, we can finaly see how bad can be some player, you want do High End content fractal T4+CM and Raid) try to play better, im not talking about do the max dps possible, im talking about do your best, and your best cant be less then a healer magi druid, that for me is a istantkick or istantleave, im not a "elitist people", but im tired of ppl that want do High End and do nothing for be more usefull to the other ppl in the party\squad and only say i play how i want

I think it's absolutely disgusting that game dev requires players to assume that everyone is using 3rd party, unsupported tool. The way it should work is if you want people to share dps with you, you ask for it in LFG. If they refuse - kick them. This way it would be visible for anyone and you would have control over your stuff.

Thread for this already exists: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/196181

But anyways, I'll repost what I put in that post. The context being a a similar complaint how ArcDPS let's you see damage while BGDM required an installer for all participants:

[repost]

BGDM and AcrDPS work differently

BGDM recorded all your combat data and was 99.999999%. So naturally, there was an opt-out bottom when using the tool as you would be publishing your direct combat data to everyone else using the tool. If you hit for 5,716 damage others using BGDM would get a report that you did 5,716 points of damage.

ArcDPS works differently as it only guesstimates which means there is a margin of inaccuracy there. The best example of its behavior would be if I knew a target had 10k HP and saw your attack brought it down to 50% health. Immediately, I would think "Oh hey, your attack just did about 5k damage." to which OP's reply is along the lines of "How dare you invade my privacy by accurately estimating the amount of damage I just dealt!!" For all I know you could have done between 4,951 and 5049 points of damage, but to me I'm just gonna ballpark it at 5k.

Also, note that ArcDPS requires a party or Squad, so it's not like I can run around open world and get guesstimations on everyone. If you don't like that your party/squadmates are guesstimating your damage output? Well, you have the choice to walk away rom that group much like the group has the choice to measure your performance. Granted, I know that a ton of folks are calling this elitism. But it works both ways in that groups can now see players who are trying to slip in for a free carry. As in, no one likes have that one guy who slips in hoping to get by with just auto attacking; it's not fair to the rest of the group that contributing a more fair amount (which of course is subjective to the group).

Personally, when I pug, I just hide the meter because there's no sense in looking at the numbers. In a raid or CM where the numbers matter. You bet I'm gonna be looking at the folks who aren't putting in the effort.

[/repost]

Long story short here: ArcDPS is just a tool. If you make use of the tool within the bounds of its intention? Great! If you abuse it for your own selfish reasons? Well that's on you. Like I mentioned in my repost, I don't even bother running the meter in casual settings because the game is supposed to be fun, and where's the fun in my nitpicking about someoone's damage? Now when it comes to CM's or raids? Well, I almost exclusively do that with my static group where the assumption is that we're all constantly trying to improve. If I happen to be pugging CM's or raids? Well, I'll only break it out after a couple wipes when everyone's like "Why are we dying so many times?". Otherwise, if we're smooth sailing and getting through the content? Well, I don't see the point of critiquing a pug unless they ask for advice. They'll likely never see me again nor will I see them.

If you run into a group that is so elitist they are measuring you to the T? Let's be honest, that's an attitude/behavioral issue. As in, even if they didn't have a damage meter that group would have still found a reason to kick/complain about your performance.

The legalistic note here being that Anet has declared that combat data is deemed public information. So anyone complaining about lack of privacy or issues about their data being visible don't have anything to stand on other than their own opinion (Throwing that out there in case some throws the "privacy" flag up).

@savacli.8172 said:Thread for this already exists: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/196181

But anyways, I'll repost what I put in that post. The context being a a similar complaint how ArcDPS let's you see damage while BGDM required an installer for all participants:

[repost]

BGDM and AcrDPS work differently

BGDM recorded all your combat data and was 99.999999%. So naturally, there was an opt-out bottom when using the tool as you would be publishing your direct combat data to everyone else using the tool. If you hit for 5,716 damage others using BGDM would get a report that you did 5,716 points of damage.

ArcDPS works differently as it only guesstimates which means there is a margin of inaccuracy there. The best example of its behavior would be if I knew a target had 10k HP and saw your attack brought it down to 50% health. Immediately, I would think "Oh hey, your attack just did about 5k damage." to which OP's reply is along the lines of "How dare you invade my privacy by accurately estimating the amount of damage I just dealt!!" For all I know you could have done between 4,951 and 5049 points of damage, but to me I'm just gonna ballpark it at 5k.

Also, note that ArcDPS requires a party or Squad, so it's not like I can run around open world and get guesstimations on everyone. If you don't like that your party/squadmates are guesstimating your damage output? Well, you have the choice to walk away rom that group much like the group has the choice to measure your performance. Granted, I know that a ton of folks are calling this elitism. But it works both ways in that groups can now see players who are trying to slip in for a free carry. As in, no one likes have that one guy who slips in hoping to get by with just auto attacking; it's not fair to the rest of the group that contributing a more fair amount (which of course is subjective to the group).

Personally, when I pug, I just hide the meter because there's no sense in looking at the numbers. In a raid or CM where the numbers matter. You bet I'm gonna be looking at the folks who aren't putting in the effort.

[/repost]

Long story short here: ArcDPS is just a tool. If you make use of the tool within the bounds of its intention? Great! If you abuse it for your own selfish reasons? Well that's on you. Like I mentioned in my repost, I don't even bother running the meter in casual settings because the game is supposed to be fun, and where's the fun in my nitpicking about someoone's damage? Now when it comes to CM's or raids? Well, I almost exclusively do that with my static group where the assumption is that we're all constantly trying to improve. If I happen to be pugging CM's or raids? Well, I'll only break it out after a couple wipes when everyone's like "Why are we dying so many times?". Otherwise, if we're smooth sailing and getting through the content? Well, I don't see the point of critiquing a pug unless they ask for advice. They'll likely never see me again nor will I see them.

If you run into a group that is so elitist they are measuring you to the T? Let's be honest, that's an attitude/behavioral issue. As in, even if they didn't have a damage meter that group would have still found a reason to kick/complain about your performance.

The legalistic note here being that Anet has declared that combat data is deemed public information. So anyone complaining about lack of privacy or issues about their data being visible don't have anything to stand on other than their own opinion (Throwing that out there in case some throws the "privacy" flag up).

1. Thread you are linking is now closed but since players still want to discuss this it has to go into new one.
2. We have rules in life to keep behavioral problems in check.
3. Whole premise of both thread is to challenge the idea of combat data being public by default. Anet never responded to this, Chris just dropped by, rephrased the policy and ran away without answering concerns following their policy. That being said, thread is definitely not over and is worth further exploration. As you can see people are still interested in this and find current implementation of the tool and policy around it questionable.

Mostly the same 10 people tho.

@SoliSnake.9457 said:i play this game from the launch, and ArcDPS is what we needed from the start, we can finaly see how bad can be some player, you want do High End content fractal T4+CM and Raid) try to play better, im not talking about do the max dps possible, im talking about do your best, and your best cant be less then a healer magi druid, that for me is a istantkick or istantleave, im not a "elitist people", but im tired of ppl that want do High End and do nothing for be more usefull to the other ppl in the party\squad and only say i play how i want

Thumb's up

This is generally where a lot of the "elitists" are getting backlash about ArcDPS or whatever else is in the stream. As in you have two extremes: you have the "elitist" that wants to complete the content in an easy and painfree manner, and then you have the "casual" that walks in with his own homebrew build which performs subpar. Both players have the same right to play how they want. But of course players on opposite ends are gonna clash.

The overall issue? No one wants to budge, and no one wants to meet in the middle. As in, the "elitist" won't forgive anyone doing less than 90% of qT benchmarks (throwing out 90% for the sake of argument), and the causal won't budge and tweak his build a bit so that the group as a whole has a better chance of clearing the encounter.

Honestly, people bringing up complaints like "DPS meters should be banned" are cute. I say cute because they're just masking the overall issue that us as players don't get along. I mean, we're not a perfect world and clearly people don't like each other. So, while you all are complaining about nasty comments and experiences you've had with pugs and and trying to write that off as behavior of the general population in the game, I'm gonna go run off and have griffon races with some friends of mine.

@savacli.8172 said:Honestly, people bringing up complaints like "DPS meters should be banned" are cute.

Fortunately this thread is not about banning dps meter but about providing better implementation to respect both sides of the story (which is not possible now).

How about the “elitist” players play with other players like them and the “casual” players with other players like them? If you don’t like being held to such a high standard, join a group which allows everyone or just create your own. Really no different than day 1 when people were complaining about the elitists in dungeons or skipping mobs.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:How about the “elitist” players play with other players like them and the “casual” players with other players like them? If you don’t like being held to such a high standard, join a group which allows everyone or just create your own. Really no different than day 1 when people were complaining about the elitists in dungeons or skipping mobs.

It's impossible to achieve because of current implementation of dps meter policy. You can ask in lfg for not using this tool but people can still come and monitor you without your consent. This is what OP is talking about in his thread which is valid concern. Currently players are not on equal foot. Current policy forces you to accept you are being monitored, even though the tool is not part of the game and isn't even monitored for compliance.

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:How about the “elitist” players play with other players like them and the “casual” players with other players like them? If you don’t like being held to such a high standard, join a group which allows everyone or just create your own. Really no different than day 1 when people were complaining about the elitists in dungeons or skipping mobs.

And? How long have players been using DPS meters? You won’t know unless they tell you and playing with people like yourself reduces the chances of running into the so-called “elitists”. Why would “casual” players use a DPS meter and question someone else’s DPS?

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:How about the “elitist” players play with other players like them and the “casual” players with other players like them? If you don’t like being held to such a high standard, join a group which allows everyone or just create your own. Really no different than day 1 when people were complaining about the elitists in dungeons or skipping mobs.

Sigh.....

How'd i know this would happen.

The tool is monitored for compliance, please don't spread misinformation for your own agenda. Arc constantly talks to chris about any changes and features he even remotely thinks about adding. Seeing as the current iteration is accepted, there's nothing wrong with it. Additionally, there's nothing wrong with the policy or the tool parsing combat data as all combat data is sent to every client, it's not yours and you don't own it which means you aren't being monitored.

If you want to discuss the merits of a meter that's fine but intentionally attacking the character of an Anet employee and a community member because you have a personal slight is just wrong.

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:How about the “elitist” players play with other players like them and the “casual” players with other players like them? If you don’t like being held to such a high standard, join a group which allows everyone or just create your own. Really no different than day 1 when people were complaining about the elitists in dungeons or skipping mobs.

Deltaconnected admitted today on forums that updates he make are not checked for compliance and he pushes then based on belief they are okay.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/224873/#Comment_224873

@deltaconnected.4058 said:While I keep communications open, there is no verification or approval for each build. In terms of new features I use my own judgement on what Chris would consider ok, and in the cases where there's even a fragment of doubt, shoot him a message. Besides that, they go straight from VS to my download server. Expecting him to disassemble builds multiple times a week and say with any sort of confidence that they don't contain any potentially malicious intent just isn't reasonable.

So basically the build is checked only when delta asks for it being checked. Its valid concern and Im happy op created this topic. We should discuss this. Its not accusing anyone, its about faulty policy and implementation that are being challenged here.

@deltaconnected.4058 said:While I keep communications open, there is no verification or approval for each build. In terms of new features I use my own judgement on what Chris would consider ok, and in the cases where there's even a fragment of doubt, shoot him a message. Besides that, they go straight from VS to my download server. Expecting him to disassemble builds multiple times a week and say with any sort of confidence that they don't contain any potentially malicious intent just isn't reasonable.

This is what he said, and since you had a problem understanding it. Basically all maintenance/upkeep is done without the need to send Chris every build. That's no different than any program. However, if there's a feature shift or something that may/might potentially be outside of scope Eg. Build Templates he always contacts Chris.

How you could take that in any form as to mean he pushes non-compliant builds is silly.

@Kheldorn.5123 said:So basically the build is checked only when delta asks for it being checked. Its valid concern and Im happy op created this topic. We should discuss this. Its not accusing anyone, its about faulty policy and implementation that are being challenged here.

It's not faulty policy or implementation. Maintenance builds that change nothing but flow of information and streamline overhead don't need to be checked. If literally every build had to be checked, Chris would need a new Job and Title and we'd have 0 3rd Party Add-ons as there's not enough time in the day to vet every build. It's physically impossible. That's why once a build gets greenlighted they're expected to maintain it's compliance and any new features get vetted before they're added to live hence why ARC got in trouble for releasing a limited scale Build Template for test before he had the global green.

Essentially what i'm seeing here is a bunch of complaints from people who do not understand programming and Server/Client reporting. It's not a policy issue it's literally a case of ill informed users making assertions with the wrong information

@TexZero.7910 said:

@deltaconnected.4058 said:While I keep communications open, there is no verification or approval for each build. In terms of new features I use my own judgement on what Chris would consider ok, and in the cases where there's even a fragment of doubt, shoot him a message. Besides that, they go straight from VS to my download server. Expecting him to disassemble builds multiple times a week and say with any sort of confidence that they don't contain any potentially malicious intent just isn't reasonable.

It's on delta's side. If he decides not to contant Chris, he can push update without supervision. As he admitted.

As I said before folks who want Police Meters should keep it to themselves and not share it with anyone else.ANET really needs to step in and start regulating how they should be used in game if they are just going to allow 3rd party creator to keep Policing everyone.

Suspensions and Bans should be in order seeing as it just another way folks can abuse and bully folks in a VIDEO GAME!

@Kheldorn.5123 said:It's on delta's side. If he decides not to contant Chris, he can push update without supervision. As he admitted.

And look what happened to the last guy who pulled that stunt (BGDM). He made uncompliant changes, said uncompliant changes were discovered, developer was asked to modify his tool to be in compliance, developer ignored Anet's demands, and now not only is BGDM banned but Anet irrevocable banned any accounts they found to be tied to the developer.

So yeah, Delta may not be Q/A'd every step of the way, but he's been given his boundaries. Chris gave him black and white guidelines on what's compliant, and Delta consults Chris anytime there is a grey-area feature. Of course I would expect Delta to inform Chris of every change as I would guess the majority of the changes are just related to maintenance and build compatibility.

Granted, devil's advocate, Delta does have free reign to totally go off the rails and give into the dark side....but what would be the point. Anet updated their policy to allow public parsing/viewing of combat data so Delta deciding to go rogue would just ruin the opportunity for future developers to have access to combat data is Anet sees the data being regularly abused. And by abused I mean mechanically as socially abused is not something Delta nor Anet can control.

@Rhanoa.3960 said:Suspensions and Bans should be in order seeing as it just another way folks can abuse and bully folks in a VIDEO GAME!

100% agree. Regardless of the method, be it irl or in-game, bullying should never go unpunished. But, don't blame it on the tool, blame it on the person using the tool. I mean, you want to see real bullying? Just look at PvP. Outside of match-ending statistics they have not a whole lot to work with yet that community has some of the most toxic players in the game. And that's not a GW2 problem, that's just a typical behavior of the game aspect.

So, like I said before, bullies will find anything and everything to put down others. Is there positive things you can do knowing the damage/performance of others (with or without their consent)? Of course! Are there bullies that will take this information and use it against others? Well, unfortunately, yes. But, at the end of the day, we are likely looking at a small percentage of the population that are abusing the tool. And like typical customer service reviews, the negative reviews are gonna be the loudest, but those reviews don't at all offer an accurate representation of the how the player base as a whole. As in, how many childhood bullies can you think of off the top of your head vs the kids in your class who got all perfect scores on their tests? Odds are you remember the bullies faster than you would you top-of-classmates.

@savacli.8172 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:It's on delta's side. If he decides not to contant Chris, he can push update without supervision. As he admitted.

It's very nice you bring BGDM. It's exactly what we are talking about in context of delta's response. BGDM became non compliant and it's still being used by people. I have encountered last week a person that was unaware BGDM got banned (as a tool) until people told him. Allowing these tools and not supervising their implementation by default is causing a huge risk. How many people may get affected if ArcDPS or any other tool becomes non compliant at some point? How much time it's gonna take Anet to find out and spread info? How many players will never get the memo?

This is why current policy is faulty and dps meter implementation should be changed. The solution may be either making it monitor only user account and only share dps numbers after others consent to share or to implement in game dps meter (which basically already is in game) to make sure it's safe and compliant.

For anyone interested take a look at this: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/225791/#Comment_225791

@Toeofdoom.6152 said:Because there are quite a few people here who haven't encountered the site before, I'll go over the privacy settings quickly.

• profile pages are entirely private.
• encounter pages are listed for all participants, but not publicly discoverable. They can be shared by links, just like raid heroes logs.
• if you wish to hide your account and character names, you can create a gw2raidar account and change your visibility to squad only, or private. This will replace your name in encounter reports with the word "PRIVATE". Note that participants do have the ability to share your character name in other ways (I.e. on other websites) and we have no control over that.
• accounts can only be created with specifically named keys, to prevent misuse of api keys that have been shared widely in the past

While more privacy settings are not impossible, we currently consider these more than sufficient. Additionally, if we are to spend our time on such features we would like to know it will resolve people's concerns, rather than just generating even more questions.

Current policy is that every player has to accept that anyone using arcdps can watch their account and share it to 3rd party site without our knowledge or consent! You can't control it! You have to create an account on this site to set your data to private. This is ridiculous!

DPS meter policy has to be revised ASAP and these tools, both arcdps and raidar site investigated. Your data is leaking to 3rd parties without you even knowing this!

@Kheldorn.5123 said:This is why current policy is faulty and dps meter implementation should be changed. The solution may be either making it monitor only user account and only share dps numbers after others consent to share or to implement in game dps meter (which basically already is in game) to make sure it's safe and compliant.

You claim it's faulty, but it's not.

You dont own combat data, never have. You've consented to share said data by playing the game. There is nothing more to even remotely discuss when it comes to these two points you keep trying to peddle as a reason for change. They're both coming from a place of ignorance toward how the game client and server function.

As we've already had this discourse it is physically impossible for Arc DPS to do what you want because it's not supported. It likely will never be supported either as that would require an entire rewrite of the game from the ground up and essentially break the very fabric of client-server communication.

PvE QQ is definitely better than WvW QQ.

[There are multiple discussions on this topic as pointed out. We appreciate your feedback. This thread is now closed.]