Idea for balancing condition damage

Either the rulesets between pve and wvw need to be split, which can obviously be done since it has been done for a number of skills and for pvp.Trying to balance pve and wvw to where they are both fair i dont think that is possible.how about lower condition base damage by a bunch but have them able to crit this wouldnt affect pve too much since they already run viper/grieving and all those hybrid type stats.For WVW this would mean condi builds would have to factor crit chance and crit damage into their builds if they want to do decent damage.Dire, Trailblazer and probably Celestial stat combos should never have been added to the game they give a condition build everything they need toughness and vitality the survival stats and only need the condition damage stat for damage and maybe condition duration whateverIf you want to do effective power damage you need three stats power precision and ferocity but then you also need toughness and vitality you have to balance your stats for survival and damage if you did the above where condis can crit a condition build would then have to do the same

@Tornix.2180 said:Either the rulesets between pve and wvw need to be split, which can obviously be done since it has been done for a number of skills and for pvp.Trying to balance pve and wvw to where they are both fair i dont think that is possible.how about lower condition base damage by a bunch but have them able to crit this wouldnt affect pve too much since they already run viper/grieving and all those hybrid type stats.For WVW this would mean condi builds would have to factor crit chance and crit damage into their builds if they want to do decent damage.Dire, Trailblazer and probably Celestial stat combos should never have been added to the game they give a condition build everything they need toughness and vitality the survival stats and only need the condition damage stat for damage and maybe condition duration whateverIf you want to do effective power damage you need three stats power precision and ferocity but then you also need toughness and vitality you have to balance your stats for survival and damage if you did the above where condis can crit a condition build would then have to do the same

Would love to see this.

I wonder if it would unbalance anything else?

@Tornix.2180 said:Either the rulesets between pve and wvw need to be split, which can obviously be done since it has been done for a number of skills and for pvp.Trying to balance pve and wvw to where they are both fair i dont think that is possible.

I think that should apply to almost all skills, and not just condition application skills.

how about lower condition base damage by a bunch but have them able to crit this wouldnt affect pve too much since they already run viper/grieving and all those hybrid type stats.

Why? Can you offer evidence that specific condition builds damage is that much greater than the direct damage counterpart? You haven't thus far.

For WVW this would mean condi builds would have to factor crit chance and crit damage into their builds if they want to do decent damage.

They already do to a great extent. Though I think this is a bit hypocritical given that there are direct damage build that do insane damage with no crit chance.

Dire, Trailblazer and probably Celestial stat combos should never have been added to the game they give a condition build everything they need toughness and vitality the survival stats and only need the condition damage stat for damage and maybe condition duration whatever

You appear to confuse your subjective opinion with that of actual objective fact.

If you want to do effective power damage you need three stats power precision and ferocity but then you also need toughness and vitality you have to balance your stats for survival and damage if you did the above where condis can crit a condition build would then have to do the same

One thing it always saddens me to see is that posters consistently fail to comprehend the problem. Conditions in and of themselves are not the problem. The issue is builds, very specific combinations of weapons skills, traits, and utility skills. Not condition skills individually.

You do not need to change how mechanics work and make irrational demands that precision to be such a necessity for condition-based builds. It would make exponentially more sense to simply tone down or adjust the specifically overpowered skills themselves.

What about lowering condi dmg scale a bit and having stat called Despair, which gives condi called agony(like in fractals). which is a new condi which CAN/CANNOT BE CLEANSED unless with specific skills , and scale based on the combine condi dmg and duration. The higher the stat Despair is, the higher the chance that agony will be applied. Thus giving agony a role in wvw and not just in fractals meaning agony resistance infusions can work in wvw too

Aw, the usual nonsense about condis. It's weird how some people feel like echoing the same story should eventually make it happen. "Condi crit ticks" "power needs 3 stats to be effective" "Dire/TB = OP". I play small scale, and the most OP class currently is spellbreaker. Invulnerable, perma boons, perma resistance, auto invulnerability etc. And guess what ? It's a power spec.

Okay, let's be positive and suggest something. You want to solve the condi issue ? Just change the way damage is related to stacks, so that it adds a cap, and decrease the damage delt after the (for example) 10th stack, so that the next ones deal less and less damage. And voilà. Condi nerf.

That too :

@coglin.1496 said:You do not need to change how mechanics work and make irrational demands that precision to be such a necessity for condition-based builds. It would make exponentially more sense to simply tone down or adjust the specifically overpowered skills themselves.

His idea keeps the risk of condis intact. It would prevent people from ignoring them. Dropping the damage down by iteself doesn't keep the risk in place. Making a comp build to mitigate condis may allow for power and condi to be desirable together. It also doesn't hit PvE and their almighty DPS meters.

@ThomasC.1056 said:Aw, the usual nonsense about condis. It's weird how some people feel like echoing the same story should eventually make it happen. "Condi crit ticks" "power needs 3 stats to be effective" "Dire/TB = OP". I play small scale, and the most OP class currently is spellbreaker. Invulnerable, perma boons, perma resistance, auto invulnerability etc. And guess what ? It's a power spec.

Okay, let's be positive and suggest something. You want to solve the condi issue ? Just change the way damage is related to stacks, so that it adds a cap, and decrease the damage delt after the (for example) 10th stack, so that the next ones deal less and less damage. And voilà. Condi nerf.

That too :

@coglin.1496 said:You do not need to change how mechanics work and make irrational demands that precision to be such a necessity for condition-based builds. It would make exponentially more sense to simply tone down or adjust the specifically overpowered skills themselves.

@thomas: that would nerf condi in PvE also. That was what he was trying to prevent.

And spell breaker in large scale is likely one of the very few power based builds.

I do NOT want condi neutered.., and the boon share meta was crappy to.

The best way would be to separate PvE from WvW creating three separate skill and trait types.

Unfortunately that likely won't happen because of the likely workload behind it.

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@ThomasC.1056 said:Aw, the usual nonsense about condis. It's weird how some people feel like echoing the same story should eventually make it happen. "Condi crit ticks" "power needs 3 stats to be effective" "Dire/TB = OP". I play small scale, and the most OP class currently is spellbreaker. Invulnerable, perma boons, perma resistance, auto invulnerability etc. And guess what ? It's a power spec.

Okay, let's be positive and suggest something. You want to solve the condi issue ? Just change the way damage is related to stacks, so that it adds a cap, and decrease the damage delt after the (for example) 10th stack, so that the next ones deal less and less damage. And voilà. Condi nerf.

That too :

@coglin.1496 said:You do not need to change how mechanics work and make irrational demands that precision to be such a necessity for condition-based builds. It would make exponentially more sense to simply tone down or adjust the specifically overpowered skills themselves.

I don't want condi to be neutered as well, don't worry. I'm all for effective, fulfilling and enjoyable condi builds, that will be reliable in all game modes, and I don't care if a fight last a bit longer that it would, should I take one of my power specs toons ; after all, I have dire and TB stats that keep me alive while my condis do the trick. (read my signature again :p)

@Sandrox.9524 said:What about lowering condi dmg scale a bit and having stat called Despair, which gives condi called agony(like in fractals). which is a new condi which CAN/CANNOT BE CLEANSED unless with specific skills , and scale based on the combine condi dmg and duration. The higher the stat Despair is, the higher the chance that agony will be applied. Thus giving agony a role in wvw and not just in fractals meaning agony resistance infusions can work in wvw too

That was called hexes.... on the good old skilled times... when ranger players and mesmer could have skills and reflexes to interrupt instant spells :) choose wich bow would be the best for interruption at the current distance etc... gw2 is a noob game compared with gw1 pvp(even pve lawl) mechanics.

Anet needs to make the game harder for offensive game play to make players play in team and ACTUALLY be decent besides carried by damage output and gimimcks spam capability-

IMO this is my change list to the game becomes reallly good PvX gameplay (just some toughts out of the box)

To remove/change:

• Change resistance from boon to effect wich would not be increased with boon duration, but would have a static value, and this skill would only prevent HEX for 2 -3 seconds max, but would not prevent condi aplyances (this would have a similiar effect to gw2 spell breaker).

• Remove some CC's aplyers on lower CD, to avoid cc'ing players might become to easy, disable the CC take out stability thing, theres already boon removal. (it worked really well on gw1)

• Remove cleaves from autos atacks with exception the cleave from staff ele for example, or similiar classes weapons. (Splinter weapon would fix this on some new spec and elementalist staff AOE would be improved to hit more targets)

• Change stability as not a boon only, and make it from several effect, as in stances, wards, boons

• Change Confusion as a condition to hex skill type

• Change Torment as a condition to hex

• Scourge and necro overall it to easy to play when only a few classes can really outrun it or have mobility to move away with certain nike setups, scourge needs only to be offensive or defensive atm is both, add mori condi cleanses is not the solution maybe ANet needs to ADD GW1 necro stuff back to GW2, less condi spam more direct damage with condi as a support for pressure, more hexes, more condi via hexes, more debuffing than spam condi, but this is class wise not necro only.We had spitefull spirits, high degen necros, MM's, order necros... much game... every thing was viable on pvp and pve, gvg's, HA, AB.. etc.. here is just spam..

To add:

• Add hex skill that apply conditions and hexes, both or only hex type or only condi, or will make next spell/skil fail etc.
• Add skills to cancel stances(remove stability) or enter in same stance as target(add stability or actual stance of target to caster)
• Add new elite trait on guardian with spirit weapons where could make allies cleave and increace number of targets with next 3-5 skills (similçiar to ritualist gameplay), some classes could eve similiar skills as well, but would stop the spam a bit and would make the game more skilled.

Anet needs to revert the awfull noob gameplay to something similiar to gw1... start forking the skills.

If they attempt to balance it in WvW, then they need to remove the immunity from them generated by other classes. Either that drastically reduce the uptime of immunity by 90-95%. Other classes don't have that type of physical immunity up-time.

What Anet mentioned (which is why the very crux of you idea doesn't work), is that the overall damage between power and condition has to be equal. Condition does over time; power does it all up front. The second you reduce, alter, or tinker with the conditions, you've lowered the damage or effectiveness of said build in "real" world circumstances.

For example, I'll use Dire, Berserker, and Soldiers as examples

• Dire's damage should be on par somewhere between Soldier & Berserker damage (given how much condition damage the player has), but it's over time
• Berserker damage does far more upfront; however, against toughness/vitality builds it's still pretty damn low
• Soldier being a good mix still does damage but has the added bonus of high survival
• Condition damage can be cleansed, but physical hits can't be "cleansed" so to speak, condition skills don't have 0s cooldowns and cant constantly be reapplied en mass
• Physical damage however can be constantly re-applied, lets call it pressing 1,1,1,1 because that is what a lot of people seem to want to do here.
• Conditions also are subject to immunity and can be permanently rendered useless. There is currently no means to render physical damage useless 100% of the time

The false argument people are coming up with is: Dire is essentially doing Berserker like damage with the added bonus of high survival

• What players fail to take into account is, this damage is still nullified either through cleanses or immunity
• In a 1vs1 scenario this argument is mostly bunk, because some classes tear through other classes quite easily, with mobility being one of the main issues
• What people are complaining about is when multiple condition classes start dumping conditions on 1 person, aka, they can't keep up with the cleansing
• Where the above argument fails, is it's no different than multiple power classes are beating on 1 person, aka, they can't keep up with the physical damage
• So then by that same metric, physical damage needs to be brought more in-line so multiple physical hits shouldn't be doing much damage to 1 person

Now implementing the OP's idea would only do the following:

• Reduce the survival of the dire class making it even more subsceptible to range classes now, and now physical classes, while not increasing their damage
• So now we have a state, of lower survival, equal or less damage, and this damage can still be cleansed or permanently rendered useless due to resistance

Where is the rational in that exactly? Anet isn't going to increase condition damage over and above to that of zerker damage, at least I highly doubt it. But what players are essentially wanting to happen is either the survival and/or damage lowered on condition builds so they can essentially run in and press 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1. Now think about the condition classes that people are really complaining about here.. think about their mobility.. and what would happen if these soldier classes got in close and pressed 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1

This is is the crux of players issues, they want it easy. They want to dress in high survival gear, do decent damage, and run around pressing 1 all day with near impunity. That meta needed to change, and it did. Condition classes are so easy to deal with, it's just that players, guilds, or squad leaders don't want the classes around that can deal with them. That's their problem.

@ThomasC.1056 said:Aw, the usual nonsense about condis. It's weird how some people feel like echoing the same story should eventually make it happen. "Condi crit ticks" "power needs 3 stats to be effective" "Dire/TB = OP". I play small scale, and the most OP class currently is spellbreaker. Invulnerable, perma boons, perma resistance, auto invulnerability etc. And guess what ? It's a power spec.

Okay, let's be positive and suggest something. You want to solve the condi issue ? Just change the way damage is related to stacks, so that it adds a cap, and decrease the damage delt after the (for example) 10th stack, so that the next ones deal less and less damage. And voilà. Condi nerf.

That too :

@coglin.1496 said:You do not need to change how mechanics work and make irrational demands that precision to be such a necessity for condition-based builds. It would make exponentially more sense to simply tone down or adjust the specifically overpowered skills themselves.

i didnt say spellbreakers arent overpowered stay relevant to the topic

If you just go ahead and compare this to just about any other mmo where theres physical damage and elemental poison whatever other damage type and see that its mitigated by physical resistance/armor or just resistance specific to that damage type now look at gw2 power mitigated by toughness condition damage mitigated by .....................................nothing does that sound like balance? thats a problem ive had with the game since launch having a damage type with no mitigation just isnt right.power builds doing damage intsantly condition damage is over time so its balanced? have you ever gotten 10 stacks of torment bleed and burning on you and a bunch of other conditions you usually die pretty quickly. You understand that conditions tick every second and power skills you have cast times (exception of fresh air weaver maybe) and cooldowns conditions are generally more consitant damage.you want evidence that condition damage is greater play PVE look at QT builds almost all condition damage. play PVP i dont do much because its terrible but every quick play ive had if theres a scourge on the enemy team or SB if you want to complain about that the scourge has aoes the same size as the cap circles and you literally get conditions across the screen if you get hit by them its awefully discouraging. play WVW i wonder why almost every group runs 2 or 3 condition scourges per party, in all game modes condition builds seem to be a majority if that isnt evidence of an imbalance i dont know what is

go ahead and pull apart everything i say find everything that i've neglected show me that you can do a critical analysis like a litrature studenti'm just saying there is a problem amongst many problems condition damage is one of them and it will probably not be fixed and i am frustrated with the game because of this

If you just go ahead and compare this to just about any other mmo where theres physical damage and elemental poison whatever other damage type and see that its mitigated by physical resistance/armor or just resistance specific to that damage type now look at gw2 power mitigated by toughness condition damage mitigated by .....................................nothing does that sound like balance? thats a problem ive had with the game since launch having a damage type with no mitigation just isnt right.cleansing is removal not mitigation resistance is short immunity not mitigationpower builds doing damage intsantly condition damage is over time so its balanced? have you ever gotten 10 stacks of torment bleed and burning on you and a bunch of other conditions you usually die pretty quickly. You understand that conditions tick every second and power skills you have cast times (exception of fresh air weaver maybe) and cooldowns conditions are generally more consitant damage. There are multiple builds that can dish out a large amount of conditions in a 1v1 not talking about 10 people stacking conditions on meyou want evidence that condition damage is greater play PVE look at QT builds almost all condition damage. play PVP i dont do much because its terrible but every quick play ive had if theres a scourge on the enemy team or SB if you want to complain about that the scourge has aoes the same size as the cap circles and you literally get conditions across the screen if you get hit by them its awefully discouraging. play WVW i wonder why almost every group runs 2 or 3 condition scourges per party, in all game modes condition builds seem to be a majority if that isnt evidence of an imbalance i dont know what isgo ahead and pull apart everything i say find everything that i've neglected show me that you can do a critical analysis like a litrature studenti'm just saying there is a problem amongst many problems condition damage is one of them and it will probably not be fixed and i am frustrated with the game because of this

mistake that Anet forums do not allow me to delete fully.