Fractals Takes More Skill Than Raids — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Fractals Takes More Skill Than Raids

I find that raids are mostly boring rotations. Its just tedious work, but the best gameplay for pve content imo has been fracs. Yeah you can speed run etc, but fracs is more dynamic especially with pubs. DPS has to actually think a lot more about healing and surviving for themselves instead of just mindless rotations. I feel like the roles are more fluid. For instance if i want to play medi thief..... I can deal a lot of damage, then see team mates downed and drop a shadow refuge and heal them etc.. With raids it just feels so monotonous. So even if finishing a fractal can seem easier its only because you can pick of the slack of the group and make more of a difference. In raids the bosses can sit in one spot too long... its just so meh...

It just makes dps meters just ridiculous. It should be more like.... dodge> run> strong ability>back out>come in> etc
Auto attacks are too important. In fact for a lot of classes auto attack only vs max dps is only like 10-30 percent difference. That's insane. The group shouldnt be able to tank so much damage and just sit there maxing dps for so long. It should be more dynamic where you are in and out causing big hits then coming back out.

I would say that raid bosses need less hp but are harder to just stand there and max dps.

Then instead of certain classes or rotations easily maxing dps, you would have those who have more skill maxing dps.

I just feel the balance of raids is off. Its too generic. 10-30 difference between auto attack only and max dps.... thats just not right. Its like someone took your soda and watered it down.

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Comments

  • Magnus Godrik.5841Magnus Godrik.5841 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Um no. Especially with the new elites. You can now pretty much just stack and melt the enemies and most bosses without moving. The only exception is 99 and 100 which actually do have mechanics. But even those are easy when cm aren't involved.

  • Yeah fractals are so hard, i rly focus on survivability as seen here:

    Totally not just doing rotations.

  • czerwoni.9563czerwoni.9563 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cynn.1659 said:
    The only challenge fractals present is running away from LFG randoms as they try to hug you with social.

    Omg right

    you say mesmer i say shadow sorcerer

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    Fractals are more Dynamik? You usually burst all bosses down before they do anything with a good Group.
    The difference between only aa and Rotation is much greater on everything that isn't thief too.
    Condi engi grenade only is terrible dps. same for holo and don't even start on staff weaver aa damage.

    And bosses are too stationary in raids? Which bosses aren't in fractals? You even skip most mechanics in fracs because of high damage.

  • savacli.8172savacli.8172 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cynn.1659 said:
    The only challenge fractals present is running away from LFG randoms as they try to hug you with social.

    Amen...

    I mean even fractal CM's can be made trivial with high damage teams. The thing is that fractals cater to both core and expansion players while raids cater exclusively to HoT players. So naturally raids can present more challenges because players have more tools to overcome said challenges. Yet we bring those same tools into fractals and watch things melt.

  • Fractals are actualy stupid easy due to breakbars. It's just that fractal pugs are worst.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Weaver is hilariously broken with tempest's defense on fractals. The burst is just dumb. They easily do double the DPS of the next best DPS with a quick enough fight due to the humongous boost they get on a CC'd boss.

  • nsleep.7839nsleep.7839 Member ✭✭
    edited October 29, 2017

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    Weaver is hilariously broken with tempest's defense on fractals. The burst is just kitten. They easily do double the DPS of the next best DPS with a quick enough fight due to the humongous boost they get on a CC'd boss.

    You say this as if they weren't easy already with HoT specs, specially the Tempest.

    The only hard thing about fractals is dealing with some instabilities RNG when pugging and/or playing with bad group comps. All bosses that aren't forcing you to go through some kind of phase are just "stack," stand still and burst. Mechanics are optional if they aren't do-or-die or can be distorted.

  • Raguel.9402Raguel.9402 Member ✭✭✭

    Take random pugs with 0 class knowledge and no support into raids and see if you can mindlessly dps then ;)

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cobrakon.3108 said:
    I find that raids are mostly boring rotations. Its just tedious work, but the best gameplay for pve content imo has been fracs. Yeah you can speed run etc, but fracs is more dynamic especially with pubs. DPS has to actually think a lot more about healing and surviving for themselves instead of just mindless rotations. I feel like the roles are more fluid. For instance if i want to play medi thief..... I can deal a lot of damage, then see team mates downed and drop a shadow refuge and heal them etc.. With raids it just feels so monotonous. So even if finishing a fractal can seem easier its only because you can pick of the slack of the group and make more of a difference. In raids the bosses can sit in one spot too long... its just so meh...

    That's not fractals vs raids, that's playing optimal vs playing suboptimal you describe here. You can do the same in raids, except they are more punishing in general and you're less likely to succeed. Hence, raids actually take more skill.

    But more to the point, the suboptimal play you're describing takes different skills. It took me months to get rid of the habits I built in pug fractals. To learn NOT to worry about healing and trust the healer to keep me alive, learn how NOT to dodge attacks and rely on the chrono do distort me and so forth. And you know what? I like it better. Because there's actual teamwork here. Everyone plays to their strengths, do what they do best. What I used to play before, what you describe, is pretty much everyone doing the exact same - trying to outlive the enemy - as if they were fighting alone. There's only one interaction with the other players, and that's when somebody gets downed. It's boring. It's not really different than just zerging a world boss.

  • Joxer.6024Joxer.6024 Member ✭✭✭

    Keep in mind, raids are still in diaper (sorry, nappy) stage at this point. Only just 2 years in so a long way to go and I hope its only up. ;)

  • Rennie.6750Rennie.6750 Member ✭✭✭

    @Amicable Pugs.4503 said:
    Yeah fractals are so hard, i rly focus on survivability as seen here:

    Totally not just doing rotations.

    Everything becomes easy with enough practice. The challenge is in the learning process. Even IRL, learning japanese is hard, but once you speak it fluently it's trivial. So the right question is "what takes the most practice to master?", not "what remains challenging forever", otherwise we're in the nearly impossible territory.

  • Rennie.6750Rennie.6750 Member ✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Cobrakon.3108 said:
    I find that raids are mostly boring rotations. Its just tedious work, but the best gameplay for pve content imo has been fracs. Yeah you can speed run etc, but fracs is more dynamic especially with pubs. DPS has to actually think a lot more about healing and surviving for themselves instead of just mindless rotations. I feel like the roles are more fluid. For instance if i want to play medi thief..... I can deal a lot of damage, then see team mates downed and drop a shadow refuge and heal them etc.. With raids it just feels so monotonous. So even if finishing a fractal can seem easier its only because you can pick of the slack of the group and make more of a difference. In raids the bosses can sit in one spot too long... its just so meh...

    That's not fractals vs raids, that's playing optimal vs playing suboptimal you describe here. You can do the same in raids, except they are more punishing in general and you're less likely to succeed. Hence, raids actually take more skill.

    But more to the point, the suboptimal play you're describing takes different skills. It took me months to get rid of the habits I built in pug fractals. To learn NOT to worry about healing and trust the healer to keep me alive, learn how NOT to dodge attacks and rely on the chrono do distort me and so forth. And you know what? I like it better. Because there's actual teamwork here. Everyone plays to their strengths, do what they do best. What I used to play before, what you describe, is pretty much everyone doing the exact same - trying to outlive the enemy - as if they were fighting alone. There's only one interaction with the other players, and that's when somebody gets downed. It's boring. It's not really different than just zerging a world boss.

    There are two primary ways you usually interact with others in group content, first with team chat (a lot of teams do need to be explained things) then with buffs/boons. It's rare to find a team that doesn't do either, even in lower tiers.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Chat isn't a gameplay interaction, and boons are a pretty passive one. The current meta features interaction on a gameplay mechanics level, which makes it feel a lot more like actual teamwork. And, you know, a role-playing game.

  • I tend to agree with the OP, but perhaps for a different reason. As much as I love raids, to this day I still consider dungeons and fractals superior content. Raids have taught us how to produce decent sustained DPS, besides open burst, which was the only thing you needed in dungeons. But at the same time raids have robbed us of interesting gameplay outside of boss fights. A HUGE factor dictating how efficiently a team can complete a dungeon/fractal is how well they can conduct themselves in between bosses. Stacking stealth, pathing mobs, pre-stacking might, swapping weapons for maximum mobility and handling some jumping puzzle-like sections. This level of micromanagement is completely irrelevant in raids and will not have any noticeable impact on your clear times.

    I just wish some future raids will be designed more like dungeons and stealth-skipping will be mandatory if your objective is time efficiency. Also bring back pre-stacking buffs. If my memory serves me right, it used to work in super early versions of raids, but was removed for later on. If you feel it's necessary, you can compensate for that by adding corresponding amount of HP to bosses.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2017

    @Tarasicodissa.7084 said:
    I tend to agree with the OP, but perhaps for a different reason. As much as I love raids, to this day I still consider dungeons and fractals superior content. Raids have taught us how to produce decent sustained DPS, besides open burst, which was the only thing you needed in dungeons. But at the same time raids have robbed us of interesting gameplay outside of boss fights. A HUGE factor dictating how efficiently a team can complete a dungeon/fractal is how well they can conduct themselves in between bosses. Stacking stealth, pathing mobs, pre-stacking might, swapping weapons for maximum mobility and handling some jumping puzzle-like sections. This level of micromanagement is completely irrelevant in raids and will not have any noticeable impact on your clear times.

    I just wish some future raids will be designed more like dungeons and stealth-skipping will be mandatory if your objective is time efficiency. Also bring back pre-stacking buffs. If my memory serves me right, it used to work in super early versions of raids, but was removed for later on. If you feel it's necessary, you can compensate for that by adding corresponding amount of HP to bosses.

    I hope not. I don't miss the stupid micromanagement of bag windows and clicking items in the middle of a dungeon for efficiency.

    Nor do I miss the stealth skips. Why even put mobs there if you're going to stealth skip them. Guild Wars 1 had it right, they had tough trash packs like in the Foundry of Failed Creations that you had to approach with some thought. In this game, the burst is out of control.

    I hope they do a global damage reduction at some point. Phase skipping should never be a thing. The test of fight should be doing mechanics consistently for a set amount of time with unforgiving mechanics. FFXIV gets this right in savage mode fights. Neo Exdeath even on farm takes 10 minutes of properly executing mechanics, and more than 2 deaths lead to a wipe due to the fight's tight tuning.

    This game needs to reign in the massive power creep they've created with each xpac.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2017

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    I hope they do a global damage reduction at some point. Phase skipping should never be a thing. The test of fight should be doing mechanics consistently for a set amount of time with unforgiving mechanics.

    Ew. I hope not. That's too Asian for my taste. I like it how it is now. You can pull off crazy deeps? GJ, you get rewarded. You fail? You wipe. And you still have the option to do it with mechanics (think of Subject 6 for instance).

    P.S. "Massive power creep"? Like someone coming from Diablo 3, all I have to say is this.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    I hope they do a global damage reduction at some point. Phase skipping should never be a thing. The test of fight should be doing mechanics consistently for a set amount of time with unforgiving mechanics.

    Ew. I hope not. That's too Asian for my taste. I like it how it is now. You can pull off crazy deeps? GJ, you get rewarded. You fail? You wipe. And you still have the option to do it with mechanics (think of Subject 6 for instance).

    P.S. "Massive power creep"? Like someone coming from Diablo 3, all I have to say is this.

    I'd rather games not be designed on whether they are as bad as Diablo 3.

    It is a massive power creep. One expansion brought specs pushing past 30k DPS, then the next one pushed it even further to 37k+. It's kitten.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2017

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    I'd advise you not to take golem numbers as a measure of actual performance.

    Spare me. Firebrand output is trivial. All classes suffer a decrease from benchmark but a power reaper doesn't suddenly become good in a raid environment.

    https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats

    The "oh so hard it's hardly realistic" weaver with a 0.52 popularity is a 4.7k dps gain over power tempest and ahead of everybody else by a fair margin (the other closest in popularity is dragonhunter at 0.48, and it's behind weaver by a whopping 7-10k DPS), and to top it off its advantage is even larger for condi variants. It's a massive power creep if there was ever any power creep in the game.

    Surprising no one given the stupid amounts of damage modifiers weaver brought on top of the already many damage modifiers elementalist already has.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2017

    Go ahead and check the dps of a weaver in random fractal pug. The profile of the average GW2Raidar user is hardly the average GW2 player.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Go ahead and check the dps of a weaver in random fractal pug.

    Already do everyday on 100cm and 99cm. It's easily 20k+ while the rest of the specs are lucky to break past 17k.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2017

    CMs are done by meta parties, there's no real diff from raids.

    P.S. Also everyone can break above 20k.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2017

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    CMs are done by meta parties, there's no real diff from raids.

    P.S. Also everyone can break above 20k.

    Who the kitten cares to do comparisons to suboptimal setups? Games are balanced around competent players in serious formats. SPVP is not balanced around unranked yolo troll builds and WvW isn't balanced around roaming duels. Why should PvE be any different?

    Just drop the BS and stop pretending like weaver isn't consistently putting sizable gaps in throughput when you've already been provided that despite being the most popular DPS spec in raids used by many people, it still outperforms the other specs.

    And it's not just weavers. Firebrand, Renegade are all stupidly simple to play and get throughput out of and they are sizable DPS gains over any HoT spec.

    Stop moving the goalposts.

    These overperformers need nerfs. The specs shouldn't be having benchmarks beyond the 33-34k range. It's unhealthy for the game to periodically be raising the DPS ceiling by as much as 7k+ while the health of the mobs stays static.

  • Hex.2579Hex.2579 Member ✭✭✭

    i think the same too. that's why i like fractals more. and i do my dailies with pugs. it's more interesting cuz you never know what you gonna get when it comes to pugs. some are good, know the fights and mechanics well, dps is not bad either, some just feel like they need to reroll in t1 to learn more about the mechanics. lol.

    i've been switching gears as well as infusions back and forth to a few characters. in the end, i decide to stay on chrono and scourge. scourge is super helpful in 99cm and 100cm and overall with normal fractals with projectiles management. while they also give allies barrier to keep them safe if their stuff are on cd. at the same time aoe condi cleanse every 4s, i feel like my pugs go down less when i play on a scourge vs a reaper. it's a big change in comparison. not many run scourge now though. cuz they probably follow the meta and think it's kitten. whereas on my chrono i could mitigate attacks and help them stay alive better.

    the reason raids get to this point cuz meta. these optimal builds are great for dps meter, but overall you have holy trinity roles with tank, healer and dps, you're just facetanking anything and could do your rotation in your sleep. same could apply in fractals too if you bump into what look like a small raid squad, with healer, and tank. but with a full dps group, that's where it's at xD

  • Joxer.6024Joxer.6024 Member ✭✭✭

    Based on the title of this thread, I would say its not "more" skill but skill of a different nature for sure. I have ran very few fracts even though I have the AR to do the higher ones as they are just a tad difficult for me, whereas with raids I love it. A lot of that is based on the groups I go with mostly are going for fast clears and I am so new to the fights that I struggle with mechanics and all. Lag doesn't help for sure, playing with a Guildie and he is in Calif sitting on like 50 ping and I see him dodge the orbs in that nightmare one while my toon hits every 2nd one!! Ah well, they can still be fun once you get stuck in.
    So yea, more skill doesn't really paint the right picture, just using your skills (or lack thereof) in a different way is all. ;)

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    CMs are done by meta parties, there's no real diff from raids.

    P.S. Also everyone can break above 20k.

    Who the kitten cares to do comparisons to suboptimal setups? Games are balanced around competent players in serious formats. SPVP is not balanced around unranked yolo troll builds and WvW isn't balanced around roaming duels. Why should PvE be any different?

    Just drop the BS and stop pretending like weaver isn't consistently putting sizable gaps in throughput when you've already been provided that despite being the most popular DPS spec in raids used by many people, it still outperforms the other specs.

    And it's not just weavers. Firebrand, Renegade are all stupidly simple to play and get throughput out of and they are sizable DPS gains over any HoT spec.

    Stop moving the goalposts.

    These overperformers need nerfs. The specs shouldn't be having benchmarks beyond the 33-34k range. It's unhealthy for the game to periodically be raising the DPS ceiling by as much as 7k+ while the health of the mobs stays static.

    The "overperformers" get their "overperformance" at a cost. These dps specs have consistently less, and less reliable CC for instance. Weaver has zero utility, unlike Tempest. Nerf the "overperformers" and they become useless. That's not how you balance a game. Just out of curiosity, how many games have you balanced?

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Amicable Pugs.4503 said:
    Yeah fractals are so hard, i rly focus on survivability as seen here:

    Totally not just doing rotations.

    Implying ppl focus on survivability in raids.

  • Zoltreez.6435Zoltreez.6435 Member ✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    CMs are done by meta parties, there's no real diff from raids.

    P.S. Also everyone can break above 20k.

    Who the kitten cares to do comparisons to suboptimal setups? Games are balanced around competent players in serious formats. SPVP is not balanced around unranked yolo troll builds and WvW isn't balanced around roaming duels. Why should PvE be any different?

    Just drop the BS and stop pretending like weaver isn't consistently putting sizable gaps in throughput when you've already been provided that despite being the most popular DPS spec in raids used by many people, it still outperforms the other specs.

    And it's not just weavers. Firebrand, Renegade are all stupidly simple to play and get throughput out of and they are sizable DPS gains over any HoT spec.

    Stop moving the goalposts.

    These overperformers need nerfs. The specs shouldn't be having benchmarks beyond the 33-34k range. It's unhealthy for the game to periodically be raising the DPS ceiling by as much as 7k+ while the health of the mobs stays static.

    The "overperformers" get their "overperformance" at a cost. These dps specs have consistently less, and less reliable CC for instance. Weaver has zero utility, unlike Tempest. Nerf the "overperformers" and they become useless. That's not how you balance a game. Just out of curiosity, how many games have you balanced?

    Well what the Devs did to scourge and necro overall.... this is prety much how devs balance sadly.....

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zoltreez.6435 said:
    Well what the Devs did to scourge and necro overall.... this is prety much how devs balance sadly.....

    You mean fixing unintended trait interactions that made a support do more dps than a dps ?

    I mean sounds like balance to me, if they'd fix the supportive aspect.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    CMs are done by meta parties, there's no real diff from raids.

    P.S. Also everyone can break above 20k.

    Who the kitten cares to do comparisons to suboptimal setups? Games are balanced around competent players in serious formats. SPVP is not balanced around unranked yolo troll builds and WvW isn't balanced around roaming duels. Why should PvE be any different?

    Just drop the BS and stop pretending like weaver isn't consistently putting sizable gaps in throughput when you've already been provided that despite being the most popular DPS spec in raids used by many people, it still outperforms the other specs.

    And it's not just weavers. Firebrand, Renegade are all stupidly simple to play and get throughput out of and they are sizable DPS gains over any HoT spec.

    Stop moving the goalposts.

    These overperformers need nerfs. The specs shouldn't be having benchmarks beyond the 33-34k range. It's unhealthy for the game to periodically be raising the DPS ceiling by as much as 7k+ while the health of the mobs stays static.

    The "overperformers" get their "overperformance" at a cost. These dps specs have consistently less, and less reliable CC for instance. Weaver has zero utility, unlike Tempest. Nerf the "overperformers" and they become useless. That's not how you balance a game. Just out of curiosity, how many games have you balanced?

    How many have YOU?

    One.

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    Tempest brings no utility whatsoever in PvE over weaver besides a healing spec. Ele has always had redundant utility. As has condi ranger given if you want to actually do DPS you're not taking spotter or any CC, just as soulbeast does. If you swap lynx out for wyvern, it's a sizable DPS loss all the same.

    Firebrand utility is off the chains superior to dragonhunter, so I don't know what in hell you're talking about. It's not like a raid or fractal with a chronomancer in it has much difficulty doing any damage to breakbars.

    In the case of scourge it was pretty much an upgrade in everything to reaper and core necromancer, both in utility and DPS.

    Tempest does bring a lot of utility, some for the group and some for himself. Stability on overload is something I really appreciated when I began playing Weaver. Gale Song is obvious. There's extra might from Fire overload, too, as well as extra vuln from Air. Which counts for something. Last but not least, a Tempest CC is easier to access and loses less dps than Weaver's.

    Condi ranger was lacking in dps after the last balance pass, hence Soulbeast gave a much needed boost in dps, making it competitive. Same for Mirage btw.

    Firebrand has awesome utility and tad too much damage, so it is indeed overperforming a little. But only a little. DH can outperform it in terms of raw dps on certain encounters and doesn't rely on sharing AotJ for it.

    Scourge needs help right away.

    The point is, claiming PoF specs are overperforming is generalizing based on golem results. You're tunnel-visioning on the numbers and disregarding all the gameplay. You can't balance a game based on so little information. You can only break it.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    But Weaver is also overperforming on actual Bosses in fracs and raids. Try to beat a Weaver on 100 and 99 cm Bosses as holo or dh. They have to screw up a lot for that.
    Tempest defense needs to go as a trait. And damage vs big hitbox is just too high in general.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    But Weaver is also overperforming on actual Bosses in fracs and raids. Try to beat a Weaver on 100 and 99 cm Bosses as holo or dh. They have to screw up a lot for that.
    Tempest defense needs to go as a trait. And damage vs big hitbox is just too high in general.

    Weaver is more reliant on your team to pull off good dps. Sure, the burst is high. But it is its only feature. There's no reason to play weaver aside from what the build can do as burst against large hitbox.

  • @Nephalem.8921 said:
    But Weaver is also overperforming on actual Bosses in fracs and raids. Try to beat a Weaver on 100 and 99 cm Bosses as holo or dh. They have to screw up a lot for that.
    Tempest defense needs to go as a trait. And damage vs big hitbox is just too high in general.

    Weaver and Tempest rely very heavily on the large-hitbox exploit to get high DPS. It’s not the traits causing the discrepancy, it’s the multi-strike AOEs. Power Tempest is trash tier against small-hitbox and Power Weaver is little better. Condi builds are within expectation given their respective support/sustain characteristics.

  • @Zenith.7301 said:
    All the utility you pointed on tempest is redundant utility. Nobody needs your might when the warrior is doing his job, and vulnerability is trivial to stack.

    You might be surprised by how non-trivial vulnerability stacking is, especially with certain group comps. ;)

  • runeblade.7514runeblade.7514 Member ✭✭✭

    Man, if this was true, I would be able to get a spot in raids without being kicked for being unskilled due to my "Fractal elite skillz".

    6x warrior/5xRanger/6x Revenant/6x Mesmer/5x Guardian/6x Thief/5x Engineer/5x Necromancer/5x Elementalist

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Tarasicodissa.7084 said:
    I tend to agree with the OP, but perhaps for a different reason. As much as I love raids, to this day I still consider dungeons and fractals superior content. Raids have taught us how to produce decent sustained DPS, besides open burst, which was the only thing you needed in dungeons. But at the same time raids have robbed us of interesting gameplay outside of boss fights. A HUGE factor dictating how efficiently a team can complete a dungeon/fractal is how well they can conduct themselves in between bosses. Stacking stealth, pathing mobs, pre-stacking might, swapping weapons for maximum mobility and handling some jumping puzzle-like sections. This level of micromanagement is completely irrelevant in raids and will not have any noticeable impact on your clear times.

    I just wish some future raids will be designed more like dungeons and stealth-skipping will be mandatory if your objective is time efficiency. Also bring back pre-stacking buffs. If my memory serves me right, it used to work in super early versions of raids, but was removed for later on. If you feel it's necessary, you can compensate for that by adding corresponding amount of HP to bosses.

    I hope not. I don't miss the stupid micromanagement of bag windows and clicking items in the middle of a dungeon for efficiency.

    Nor do I miss the stealth skips. Why even put mobs there if you're going to stealth skip them. Guild Wars 1 had it right, they had tough trash packs like in the Foundry of Failed Creations that you had to approach with some thought. In this game, the burst is out of control.

    I hope they do a global damage reduction at some point. Phase skipping should never be a thing. The test of fight should be doing mechanics consistently for a set amount of time with unforgiving mechanics. FFXIV gets this right in savage mode fights. Neo Exdeath even on farm takes 10 minutes of properly executing mechanics, and more than 2 deaths lead to a wipe due to the fight's tight tuning.

    This game needs to reign in the massive power creep they've created with each xpac.

    Agreed. The DPS output is crazy nowadays and ruins a lot of mechanics. qT/SC/[insert elite guild names] players are not even better at mechanics, they just do so crazy dmg compared to average players. So in the end those players will fail a lot of mechanics in normal raids groups because they are not used to doing them... I see it all the time, people from top tier guilds doing good DPS on the ArcDPS chart, but failing mechanics due not being used to having to care about them.

  • Fallesafe.5932Fallesafe.5932 Member ✭✭✭

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Tarasicodissa.7084 said:
    I tend to agree with the OP, but perhaps for a different reason. As much as I love raids, to this day I still consider dungeons and fractals superior content. Raids have taught us how to produce decent sustained DPS, besides open burst, which was the only thing you needed in dungeons. But at the same time raids have robbed us of interesting gameplay outside of boss fights. A HUGE factor dictating how efficiently a team can complete a dungeon/fractal is how well they can conduct themselves in between bosses. Stacking stealth, pathing mobs, pre-stacking might, swapping weapons for maximum mobility and handling some jumping puzzle-like sections. This level of micromanagement is completely irrelevant in raids and will not have any noticeable impact on your clear times.

    I just wish some future raids will be designed more like dungeons and stealth-skipping will be mandatory if your objective is time efficiency. Also bring back pre-stacking buffs. If my memory serves me right, it used to work in super early versions of raids, but was removed for later on. If you feel it's necessary, you can compensate for that by adding corresponding amount of HP to bosses.

    I hope not. I don't miss the stupid micromanagement of bag windows and clicking items in the middle of a dungeon for efficiency.

    Nor do I miss the stealth skips. Why even put mobs there if you're going to stealth skip them. Guild Wars 1 had it right, they had tough trash packs like in the Foundry of Failed Creations that you had to approach with some thought. In this game, the burst is out of control.

    I hope they do a global damage reduction at some point. Phase skipping should never be a thing. The test of fight should be doing mechanics consistently for a set amount of time with unforgiving mechanics. FFXIV gets this right in savage mode fights. Neo Exdeath even on farm takes 10 minutes of properly executing mechanics, and more than 2 deaths lead to a wipe due to the fight's tight tuning.

    This game needs to reign in the massive power creep they've created with each xpac.

    Agreed. The DPS output is crazy nowadays and ruins a lot of mechanics. qT/SC/[insert elite guild names] players are not even better at mechanics, they just do so crazy dmg compared to average players. So in the end those players will fail a lot of mechanics in normal raids groups because they are not used to doing them... I see it all the time, people from top tier guilds doing good DPS on the ArcDPS chart, but failing mechanics due not being used to having to care about them.

    I don't understand why this would be true. We all have the same ascended stats. And the rotations for every class/build are well known. What voodoo would allow QT (for example) to do damage inaccessible to the average raider?

  • Samnang.1879Samnang.1879 Member ✭✭✭✭

    lets be real, both are easy if others dont make mistakes/die often
    the only way anything in gw2 can be truly hard for me is if the boss does unexpected attacks, or random attacks that i can't anticipate (which i really want to happen)... cuz everything in pve right now is a cake walk for me.
    it's why i enjoy pvp/wvw more than pve these days

    Anet: give us in-game customizable human NPC companion please
    Please, no more balance changes, or at least reset our gears so we don't have to waste gold changing gears every time.
    Please have option to not receive bloodstone dusts, empyreal fragments, dragonite etc

  • Joxer.6024Joxer.6024 Member ✭✭✭

    open scary door..........trash packs, practice your skills cc's etc.....BOSS.....trash packs, maybe more this time, some strats.......BOSS......yet again trash (it makes for gelling as a team,who can cc, who can't)....... BIG 'OL BOSS!! mechanics...pewpew...mechanics...pewpew (don't die!) and BOSS deaded. RNGesus loves or hates you. Dust off and come back again next week.
    That's old school raids (or was).
    GW2= enter portal.......talk to someone small......BOSS......maybe trash run (spirits, trio, ?).....BOSS.......BOSS.......pewpew and all the above rinse repeat to the next "wing".
    Not sure why I even posted this.......lol. :3

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2017

    @Fallesafe.5932 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Tarasicodissa.7084 said:
    I tend to agree with the OP, but perhaps for a different reason. As much as I love raids, to this day I still consider dungeons and fractals superior content. Raids have taught us how to produce decent sustained DPS, besides open burst, which was the only thing you needed in dungeons. But at the same time raids have robbed us of interesting gameplay outside of boss fights. A HUGE factor dictating how efficiently a team can complete a dungeon/fractal is how well they can conduct themselves in between bosses. Stacking stealth, pathing mobs, pre-stacking might, swapping weapons for maximum mobility and handling some jumping puzzle-like sections. This level of micromanagement is completely irrelevant in raids and will not have any noticeable impact on your clear times.

    I just wish some future raids will be designed more like dungeons and stealth-skipping will be mandatory if your objective is time efficiency. Also bring back pre-stacking buffs. If my memory serves me right, it used to work in super early versions of raids, but was removed for later on. If you feel it's necessary, you can compensate for that by adding corresponding amount of HP to bosses.

    I hope not. I don't miss the stupid micromanagement of bag windows and clicking items in the middle of a dungeon for efficiency.

    Nor do I miss the stealth skips. Why even put mobs there if you're going to stealth skip them. Guild Wars 1 had it right, they had tough trash packs like in the Foundry of Failed Creations that you had to approach with some thought. In this game, the burst is out of control.

    I hope they do a global damage reduction at some point. Phase skipping should never be a thing. The test of fight should be doing mechanics consistently for a set amount of time with unforgiving mechanics. FFXIV gets this right in savage mode fights. Neo Exdeath even on farm takes 10 minutes of properly executing mechanics, and more than 2 deaths lead to a wipe due to the fight's tight tuning.

    This game needs to reign in the massive power creep they've created with each xpac.

    Agreed. The DPS output is crazy nowadays and ruins a lot of mechanics. qT/SC/[insert elite guild names] players are not even better at mechanics, they just do so crazy dmg compared to average players. So in the end those players will fail a lot of mechanics in normal raids groups because they are not used to doing them... I see it all the time, people from top tier guilds doing good DPS on the ArcDPS chart, but failing mechanics due not being used to having to care about them.

    I don't understand why this would be true. We all have the same ascended stats. And the rotations for every class/build are well known. What voodoo would allow QT (for example) to do damage inaccessible to the average raider?

    Teamwork and effort. Building the whole comp around maximized damage and then utilizing everything available to allow the dps classes to only dps. No dodges, no heals, just dps. And, of course, much practice on the rotations. Not just from the dps classes either. And, of course, much practice in the actual fights, tweaking the rotations to get even better results.

    That's ultimately a positive thing to have in the game. Because it rewards skill and it rewards gameplay interaction between players, thus encouraging said interaction.

    @Samnang.1879 said:
    lets be real, both are easy if others dont make mistakes/die often
    the only way anything in gw2 can be truly hard for me is if the boss does unexpected attacks, or random attacks that i can't anticipate (which i really want to happen)

    The problem with this is, it's just RNG. KC has some of that, with the randomly spawning circles making you spread out. In the end you can just brute-force the encounter, getting lucky with no circles spawned at all. And it doesn't feel rewarding. It doesn't feel like you've beaten the encounter, it feels like you got lucky. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everything should be strictly scripted with no RNG at all. It's OK to have some of that. But I wouldn't go much further than KC in this respect.

  • Maunzi.3764Maunzi.3764 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2017

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Yeah, yeah, I know. Every chrono keeps 100% quickness and alacrity, while distorting everything. Druid, chrono and PS do all the CC instantly, you never drop below 25 might with a ps in a party and 25 vuln just appear out of thin air. Also all raid runs are uploaded to gw2raidar, not just the successful ones. Nice little fantasy you've built yourself.

    Weird, I have yet to play a raid pug where the chronos, druids and PS failed the CC, where quickness/alacrity had less than 100% uptime, where might was ever an issue, and where vulnerabiltiy wasn't constantly maxed.

    Perhaps the problem you keep having is that you are playing with terrible builds? Because you seem to be the common factor in the terrible runs you're talking about, while the rest of us can play with randoms and not have any of those issues.

    And yeah, weaver DPS is completely and utterly broken when the weaver player is decent enough.

    You mean fixing unintended trait interactions that made a support do more dps than a dps ?

    Scourge? Support? Kekbur. Good luck bringing one to a group, what with scourge not offering any support a group actually needs, wants, or gives a kitten about.
    Chrono already has better defenses than barrier with complete damage immunity in distortion, which, by the way, lasts as long as barrier. Unlike barrier, it blocks ANYTHING.
    Might stacking? Oh, at a third to half the might range of a warrior, that sure is useful - and by useful I mean far worse than warrior might stacking. And that warrior does it not just faster and more consistently, that warrior also does more DPS AND adds banners AND empower allies.

    Scourge is crippled "support" for baddies. Nobody needs or wants that in a serious group - a drunken cPS warrior that's missing half the rotation is providing more to the group.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Maunzi.3764 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Yeah, yeah, I know. Every chrono keeps 100% quickness and alacrity, while distorting everything. Druid, chrono and PS do all the CC instantly, you never drop below 25 might with a ps in a party and 25 vuln just appear out of thin air. Also all raid runs are uploaded to gw2raidar, not just the successful ones. Nice little fantasy you've built yourself.

    Weird, I have yet to play a raid pug where the chronos, druids and PS failed the CC, where quickness/alacrity had less than 100% uptime, where might was ever an issue, and where vulnerabiltiy wasn't constantly maxed.

    Perhaps the problem you keep having is that you are playing with terrible builds? Because you seem to be the common factor in the terrible runs you're talking about, while the rest of us can play with randoms and not have any of those issues.

    Sorry, I'm not buying that. For the record, my builds are the meta ones and I'm playing in a static which clears everything on a weekly basis. We never have perfect 100% uptime on quickness and alacrity and our cc got noticeably slower when PoF hit and everybody went for the new dps builds. I should also point out that prior to joining my current team I used to pug and I very rarely found a team which didn't suffer from all of the above issues, on a considerably higher scale. I'm so not buying that.

  • Draco.9480Draco.9480 Member ✭✭✭

    @Amicable Pugs.4503 said:
    Yeah fractals are so hard, i rly focus on survivability as seen here:

    Totally not just doing rotations.

    the song ruined the video. i don't know if it's even called music or just a depressed woman whining with a terrible voice and terrible music.

  • Cynn.1659Cynn.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    More than the LSD trip you've been taking in saying Weaver is anything close to balanced and that their numbers advantage is only on a golem.

    Seems balanced just fine to me.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cynn.1659 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    More than the LSD trip you've been taking in saying Weaver is anything close to balanced and that their numbers advantage is only on a golem.

    Seems balanced just fine to me.

    ......With the other class I just pointed out also needs nerfing as a result of power creep. But I'm glad you pulled up an irrelevant anecdote and chose to disregard the gw2raidar global stats.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Cynn.1659 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    More than the LSD trip you've been taking in saying Weaver is anything close to balanced and that their numbers advantage is only on a golem.

    Seems balanced just fine to me.

    ......With the other class I just pointed out also needs nerfing as a result of power creep. But I'm glad you pulled up an irrelevant anecdote and chose to disregard the gw2raidar global stats.

    According to raidar global stats I'm usually somewhere between 75 and 90 percentile in Weaver damage output. My usual experience when both playing with my pretty casual raid static and pugging fractal CMs shows Tempests, Dragonhunters, Firebrands and Soulbeasts - which is to say, all the popular dps builds at the moment - producing pretty comparable damage output. Sometimes I'm a little ahead, sometimes I'm a little behind. On rare occasions I'm a lot ahead, but that's just L2P issue rather than my build being overpowered. I don't really have much experience with Renegades, but when I tried playing one on specific encounters its dps was comparable, too. Mirage seems to be more of a niche thing, but it is incredibly reliable in its damage output and is my preferred choice for both Matthias and Cairn. I imagine it will also be pretty decent on 100 CM, only lacking in the split phase of Skorvald. Scourges are usually a little more behind, which only means they need some buffing. And even with their lacking damage we still opt to have one on both MO and Xera fights in my team.

    Unless you believe I'm somehow that lucky to always pug into players in 90th percentile (which would be pretty ridiculous), the imbalance you speak of just isn't there. Sure, there are builds with incredible burst and others with incredible reliability. Some excel on one fights, some shine on others. It's called diversity.

  • If I show you screen of arcdps from some pug where I'm top1 DPS on necro does that mean it needs to be nerfed because it's too OP? Because that's definitely your line of argumentation

    "clang clang shriiiiek clang!" -Belinda Delaqua
    When I join your LFG

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