Did Mordremoth absorb the death spectrum?

Was hoping to have an answer by a dev about this as we are currently running into a lore issue on the wiki. Did Mordremoth absorb the death spectrum from Zhaitan after his death? The current argument right now is that all Elder Dragons can corrupt the dead not just Zhaitan and that Mordremoth’s ability to use corpses in his minion making process is a natural ability and not one granted by Zhaitan’s death spectrum. An answer to this conundrum would be most appreciated.

Some of the Mordrem resemble skulls, specifically the Vines in the Auric Basin meta. Also the ability to take people and turn them Mordrem seemed to be a learned ability.

Think its safe to say he did get death on him

Yes, he did, that was part of the story. Because of Zhaitan’s spectrum, Mordremoth started hoarding corpses to use to create more mordrem.

Yes, he did. Mr. Exposition explicitly tells us so, and we now have dev confirmation as well.

It's not outright stated as fact but it is heavily suggested. Taimi even speculates in one of the LS3 episodes that the blighting trees were made using Zhaitan's power.

! Taimi: The ones who came from the blighting pods! Mordremoth had its minions, the sylvari, right? But it was able to create more, new ones from the dead! That power came from Zhaitan!! Taimi: Killing Zhaitan caused the other dragons to absorb the death spectrum, but we only saw it in Mordremoth because it was active.! Taimi: Then we killed Mordremoth, and now Primordus has absorbed some of the death and planty-ness! I think...

To my understanding it is a confusing subject. Because at the same time that we are told by Taimi that Mordremoth swallowed the death spectrum, we are also given a situation with the Icebrood Abomination in Bitterfrost where Plant and Death magic appear to be toxic to each other. It's also noted that death and plant are never combined in any of the new Destroyers. That said, it's also never outright stated that the combination of death and plant was what caused the abomination to be killed, nor is is 100% confirmed that Mordremoth couldn't house both magics and keep them separately contained for different uses, in fact obviously in the end of POF

! Kralkatorrik contains 4 different types of dragon magic, two of which are confirmed to be opposed to each other.

@Narcemus.1348 said:To my understanding it is a confusing subject. Because at the same time that we are told by Taimi that Mordremoth swallowed the death spectrum, we are also given a situation with the Icebrood Abomination in Bitterfrost where Plant and Death magic appear to be toxic to each other. It's also noted that death and plant are never combined in any of the new Destroyers. That said, it's also never outright stated that the combination of death and plant was what caused the abomination to be killed, nor is is 100% confirmed that Mordremoth couldn't house both magics and keep them separately contained for different uses, in fact obviously in the end of POF

! Kralkatorrik contains 4 different types of dragon magic, two of which are confirmed to be opposed to each other.

Could you point out exactly where it's said that plant and death magic are toxic to each other? I've been updating the Wiki articles on magic and the Elder Dragons, but if what you say is true then I guess there's a gap in the Wiki's coverage!

At the end of PoF,

!We see blue tints in Kralkatorrik's crystals, indicating that he absorbed some of Jormag's magic from Balthazar, who absorbed Primordus and Jormag's energy using Omadd's Machine (I didn't actually realise he'd absorbed Jormag's magic, as we don't see him ever use it in the way you'd expect). I don't think we see any confirmation that Kralk absorbed Primordus' magic, though? I mean, I imagine he did, but we never see that in the cinematic.

@Tamias.7059 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:To my understanding it is a confusing subject. Because at the same time that we are told by Taimi that Mordremoth swallowed the death spectrum, we are also given a situation with the Icebrood Abomination in Bitterfrost where Plant and Death magic appear to be toxic to each other. It's also noted that death and plant are never combined in any of the new Destroyers. That said, it's also never outright stated that the combination of death and plant was what caused the abomination to be killed, nor is is 100% confirmed that Mordremoth couldn't house both magics and keep them separately contained for different uses, in fact obviously in the end of POF

! Kralkatorrik contains 4 different types of dragon magic, two of which are confirmed to be opposed to each other.

!We see blue tints in Kralkatorrik's crystals, indicating that he absorbed some of Jormag's magic from Balthazar, who absorbed Primordus and Jormag's energy using Omadd's Machine (I didn't actually realise he'd absorbed Jormag's magic, as we don't see him ever use it in the way you'd expect). I don't think we see any confirmation that Kralk absorbed Primordus' magic, though? I mean, I imagine he did, but we never see that in the cinematic.

It's not said. I think they're referring to the story mission where you hunt down an altered icebrood. In the area are death and plant infused grubs. When the death grubs die the release a burst that harms the plant grubs and when the plant grubs die they release a burst that harms the death grubs.

The trouble is that we only have a theory that Mordremoth absorbed death magic, which allowed it to create minions through corpses which we assume he couldn't do beforehand. We only have theories, though, as Mordremoth only awoke after Zhaitan's death, so we have no point to reference "Hey, Mordrem could only be created straight from plants and not through corpses!" We only have Taimi making a wild guess.

We do know that Icebrood could be made from corpses, from the Edge of Destiny book. This runs into another trouble in that we don't know how much of the books can be taken as canon and how much is the author taking creative liberties. We'd like to assume that everything from the book is reliable, but the game doesn't back all of it up. However, we do see the one Icebrood that seems to have absorbed Death and Plant magic (or perhaps it's specifically weak to Death and Plant magic released from the grubs there), so Jormag's ability to create Icebrood from corpses is not from Zhaitan's magic. Or maybe the corpse-like Icebrood we saw were corrupted shortly before their death.

TL;DR? We have no idea if Mordremoth really did absorb Death magic, from an in-game perspective. Presumably he did, though.

@Rognik.2579 said:The trouble is that we only have a theory that Mordremoth absorbed death magic, which allowed it to create minions through corpses which we assume he couldn't do beforehand. We only have theories, though, as Mordremoth only awoke after Zhaitan's death, so we have no point to reference "Hey, Mordrem could only be created straight from plants and not through corpses!" We only have Taimi making a wild guess.

We do know that Icebrood could be made from corpses, from the Edge of Destiny book. This runs into another trouble in that we don't know how much of the books can be taken as canon and how much is the author taking creative liberties. We'd like to assume that everything from the book is reliable, but the game doesn't back all of it up. However, we do see the one Icebrood that seems to have absorbed Death and Plant magic (or perhaps it's specifically weak to Death and Plant magic released from the grubs there), so Jormag's ability to create Icebrood from corpses is not from Zhaitan's magic. Or maybe the corpse-like Icebrood we saw were corrupted shortly before their death.

TL;DR? We have no idea if Mordremoth really did absorb Death magic, from an in-game perspective. Presumably he did, though.

The passage you're referring to is,

Eir roared, her blades flinging out to slash the throats of two more icebrood. They fell beside her as another came on—a man with hair like a horse’s tail. She knew this man, though his face was smashed, his nose canted to one side, his teeth gone where some great fist had struck him. His flesh was sealed in ice. His eyes were white, filled with the fury of the Dragonspawn.Nothing in that actually says that Jormag (or the Dragonspawn, actually) corrupted a corpse.

In general, I'd be a little cautious about treating the books with the same level of certainty as the game. They were sometimes written by non-game writers, they will have artistic liberties taken, and if there's a mistake or a contradiction, it's much more difficult to correct than if it's in the game.

The other thing is, given that the main point of Rising Flames and A Crack in the Ice is to communicate to players than Primordus and Jormag have absorbed Zhaitan and Mordremoth's magic, how would it make sense from a story POV to have Taimi be wrong?

It’s hard to say if the Icebrood from th book was actually killed before being corrupted. The description advised that the Norn had white hair with his face smashed in, his nose canted and teeth missing. It’s not really stating that this Norn was dead, just that he had injuries to his face and it’s not saying that this Norn had a gaping hole in his head where his face would be either. In regards to the mixing of Magic’s in the Icebrood, I believe it’s referring to its name being an unstable abomination. Before the fight it’s seen kneeling and panting. That being said perhaps Mordremoth could only use the death spectrum in strictly using corpses for minion manufacturing, which would explain why we don’t see any Nidrem infused with the death spectrum per say.

@Tamias.7059 said:Could you point out exactly where it's said that plant and death magic are toxic to each other? I've been updating the Wiki articles on magic and the Elder Dragons, but if what you say is true then I guess there's a gap in the Wiki's coverage!

It's not said, it's shown. When you fight the Champion Unstable Abomination during Bitter Cold instance in A Crack inthe Ice, you can only damage it by killing a Jungle Larva or an Undead Larva.

Killing one of the larvas releases plant or death magic respectively, damaging the Abomination but also killing the opposite larvas nearby in a rather volatile explosion.

This shows that plant and death magic - or rather, Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's - are opposites. Which also hints that necromancy's death magic is not the same as Zhaitan's, otherwise sylvari necromancers would be exploding whenever they cast a spell.

Of course, Taimi then said in Episode 5 that Mordremoth's weakness was his mind just as HoT did (and PoF later), rather than any bit of death magic causing it. So it's a bit strange. ArenaNet has been a bit contradictory left-and-right when it comes to dragon corruption/energy, which is why the wiki has been lacking. Because if you try to put stuff, you get the Blighting Tree argument where there's two contradictory statements shown.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:This shows that plant and death magic - or rather, Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's - are opposites. Which also hints that necromancy's death magic is not the same as Zhaitan's, otherwise sylvari necromancers would be exploding whenever they cast a spell.

Well, it certainly suggests it, but I wouldn't say it shows it definitively. It vaguely makes sense if you think about it in a kind of wishy-washy, "plants are life and life is the opposite of death" sort of way, but as you say, we already know what Mordremoth's weakness is. There are probably explanations that we could come up with other than "plant and death magic are opposites" if we tried.

In days gone by ANet would often try to present complicated bits of lore through showing rather than telling, but this confused people (particularly on this forum - I, for one, still don't think I understand what Scarlet's plan was, or what the Nightmare Court was supposed to be all about), either because ANet presented it in a confusing way or some people would get hung up on small details and the lore community would never reach a consensus. Eventually they just started having Taimi explain what's going on in front of players.

@Tamias.7059 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:This shows that plant and death magic - or rather, Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's - are opposites. Which also hints that necromancy's death magic is not the same as Zhaitan's, otherwise sylvari necromancers would be exploding whenever they cast a spell.

I'll just leave this here:

Helper Qiana: I see now that Zhaitan delivered destruction and death. Mordremoth brought life.Explorer: Makes sense. The life it brought was dark and dangerous, but it was life nonetheless.Helper Qiana: And yet, we are not dark and dangerous.Explorer: Are we not?

Furthermore, in Taimi's Pet Project, she had a minion from all five Tyrian-active Elder Dragons, not just destroyer and icebrood. Which meant she was trying to test the whole "opposite energy bombardment" thing on the other three too - which hints that at the very least Taimi suspected the other Elder Dragons could be opposite forces.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Furthermore, in Taimi's Pet Project, she had a minion from all five Tyrian-active Elder Dragons, not just destroyer and icebrood. Which meant she was trying to test the whole "opposite energy bombardment" thing on the other three too - which hints that at the very least Taimi suspected the other Elder Dragons could be opposite forces.

Again, that's one possible explanation. But the lab in Rata Novus is purpose-built to study Elder Dragon minions, so there are plenty of other reasons for there to be dragon minions there.

Taimi: Keep 'em alive if you can! I need them for the test!

If you say so Santax.

Honestly, I would not be surprised if the dragons actually have two weaknesses. Each other as shown with Jormag and Primordus and their own unique weakness ex: Modremoth’s mind and Kralkatorrik’s Crystals. I do question why they had an Icebrood imbued with both energies unless it’s a future plot point. I looked over that quote from Edge of Destiny again and again, and I’m still not seeing an Icebrood corpse in a hat description. Having your face smashed in could exactly that or badly beaten and bruised. According to the description no teeth, nose canted it seems like the latter or a figure of speech rather then this Norn had his face caved in, which would of been a better description if this Icebrood was in fact dead before being corrupted.

An icebrood, newly turned, flung himself over the ridge and came down with a swinging axe. "Die!"Eir leaped back from the blade and brought her own around to split the creature from shoulder to hip.Another dead man leaped the ridge and bounded toward her.Her other axe fell and broke the man like bread.

page 17 of Edge of Destiny. Could be metaphorical though. However, I am also pretty sure that during either Bad Ice or Enraged and Unashamed we see quaggan corpses rise to become icebrood quaggans. Not 100% sure since it's been so long though.

I’ll take a boo and see what I find.

All I could find is sickly Quaggan about be fully corrupted by Jormag, I’m not sure if the actual instance shows something different.

Here's my theory 3 years ago;

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Tamias.7059 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:This shows that plant and death magic - or rather, Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's - are opposites. Which also hints that necromancy's death magic is not the same as Zhaitan's, otherwise sylvari necromancers would be exploding whenever they cast a spell.

They would be more straight-forward about it, if that were the case. Jormag and Primordus were specifically presented as opposites and each other's weakness, and there was even a claim that if the machine is destroyed, it might never be possible to kill those 2, implying that there might be no other weakness.

Then, in PoF, they further pushed the weakness lore, establishing a unique weakness for Kralkatorrik. It doesn't seem like they have any intention of making an opposite pair out of the other remaining dragons.

I would tend to agree with you, however then this came into the story.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Champion_Unstable_Abomination

@"Andrew Gray.5816" said:

1. After Zhaitan's death, the other elder dragons gained the ability to make minions out of the dead. Prior to that, only living hosts were viable for the other Elder Dragons.
2. The ability for corpses to be viable candidates is the ability Mordremoth gained from Zhaitan. Without Zhaitan's power, only the living could be placed in Blighting Pods, making "taking people alive" the only way to create clones. I believe living hosts still create stronger clones, however, hence the drive to still capture victims alive when possible.

Guess that answers that.