Contradiction in White Mantle story timeline

So I've been nerding on the lore, and going by various information about the Charr invasion and the founding of the White Mantle, I noticed a contradiction:

Supposedly, the White Mantle was founded no later than 1067 AE,[1] already having held a Test of the Chosen in that year.[2]

However, it's also said that the founder of the White Mantle, Saul, founded it when he returned to a leaderless Kryta devastated by the Charr invasion.[3]

But the Charr invasion started only in 1070 AE,[4] so the White Mantle couldn't have been founded before that, could they?

[1] "The White Mantle were founded during the Third Guild War, no later than in 1067 AE (though exact year is unknown), by Saul D'Alessio." https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/White_Mantle

[2] "The test has been taking place since at least 1067 AE according to Mantle Knight Franklin." https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Test_of_the_Chosen

[3] "On the brink of death, he instead found the Unseen Ones — tall angelic beings of light who nurtured him back to health and returned him to a leaderless and besieged Kryta." https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/White_Mantle

[4] "The Charr invasion brought an end to the last of The Guild Wars. It began in 1070 AE as a three pronged attack from the Charr legions in the north against the three human kingdoms of Tyria: Ascalon, Kryta, and Orr. [...] It wasn't until the Searing, caused by the Charr's use of the Cauldron of Cataclysm that was given to them by their gods, that the true war began. With the Searing's devastation, the Charr were able to destroy the wall and send a few warbands through Ascalon to head to Orr while another group of warbands crossed the Shiverpeak Mountains and invaded Kryta." https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Charr_invasion

Yeah, I think chances are Mantle Knight Franklin's dialogue is just an oversight, given that the charr invasion has always been an important part of the White Mantle's backstory.

Of all four quotes you brought up, only one is quoting an actual in-game source - Franklin's dialogue.

The charr invasion is important to the White Mantle's backstory as it was then that they rose to power. But as far as I could find the only official source that says or hints at Saul returning to Kryta during the charr invasion itself was:

Saul D’Alessio returned to Kryta a changed man. His rags had been replaced with a sleeveless, pure-white robe embroidered with golden thread. His once sunken, sickly features were again full and healthy. He no longer craved the bottle, no longer wished to strike it rich gambling. His life had purpose. He had returned to spread the word, to deliver his finding to the humans of Kryta.

During this time, the Krytan Empire was in the midst of two wars—one against the guilds of the other human nations, and another against the beastlike Charr. Food was becoming scarce as the invaders burned the crops and salted the fields. It was then that Saul came to the people, offering help from his powerful, enigmatic gods.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Saul_D%27Alessio

Thing is, we're not exactly sure how early the charr assaulted Kryta - unlike with Orr, they did not have to go through Ascalon to go through the Far Shiverpeaks to reach Kryta. However, given that Kryta was facing two wars, that would imply that the charr reached Kryta before the Searing - as Ascalon pulled out of the Third Guild War due to the Searing.

Charr attacking Orr and Kryta never made sense then, it doesn't make sense now.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Charr attacking Orr and Kryta never made sense then, it doesn't make sense now.

Actually, it always did.

Partially because, let's be blunt, it was Abaddon calling the shots.

Partially because hitting just Ascalon could have allowed the others to come to Ascalon's aid, or simply to remain a threat afterwards. Consider that Ebonhawke survived due to Krytan aid, and Ascalon City itself might have held out if Adelbern had accepted Salma's assistance. Now, imagine if Orr had survived - from what I recall, Adelbern had no irrational hatred of Orrians, so if Orr hadn't been destroyed, there's a good chance that Adelbern would have accepted Orrian assistance and retained control of Ascalon south of the Wall.

And prior to GW2's announcement, there was no indication that Ascalon was once charr land, so why wouldn't they try to hit all three kingdoms if they could?

Mind you, it does seem as if the attack on Kryta was the least serious - mostly to tie the Krytans up than a serious attempt at conquest, I think.

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Charr attacking Orr and Kryta never made sense then, it doesn't make sense now.

Wait. This is not how it went. Adelbern is the one who recalled the Ebonvanguard from the Eye of the North who later formed the Ebonhawke after their king went insane and used the Foefire. Without a king, they have no choice but to ask for Kryta's assistance. I don't recall Salma ever extended assistance to Adelbern other than helping the Ascalonian refugees.

Now, imagine if Orr had survived - from what I recall, Adelbern had no irrational hatred of Orrians, so if Orr hadn't been destroyed, there's a good chance that Adelbern would have accepted Orrian assistance and retained control of Ascalon south of the Wall.

If I recall correctly, the Guild Wars is between Ascalon, Kryta, and Orr. This is why it didn't make sense for Charr to attack either Kryta or Orr, the enemy of my enemy kind of thing.

And prior to GW2's announcement, there was no indication that Ascalon was once charr land, so why wouldn't they try to hit all three kingdoms if they could?

Ascalon is Charr land if you played GW1.

Mind you, it does seem as if the attack on Kryta was the least serious - mostly to tie the Krytans up than a serious attempt at conquest, I think.

As I've already said, the human kingdoms are at each other's throat then the Charr launched a surprise attack on all three kingdoms. I understand the motivation against Ascalon, but against Kryta and Orr?

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Charr attacking Orr and Kryta never made sense then, it doesn't make sense now.

In war in kryta, Salma sent Evennia to Ascalon asking for assistance against the White Mantle in return for military assistance against the Charr. According to some new information, it appears that Adlebern had her hanged.

Now, imagine if Orr had survived - from what I recall, Adelbern had no irrational hatred of Orrians, so if Orr hadn't been destroyed, there's a good chance that Adelbern would have accepted Orrian assistance and retained control of Ascalon south of the Wall.

Again though, the Titans were pulling the strings. Their gods said take Orr, so they went to Orr.

And prior to GW2's announcement, there was no indication that Ascalon was once charr land, so why wouldn't they try to hit all three kingdoms if they could?

There was never mention of it being in Charr land in GW1.

Mind you, it does seem as if the attack on Kryta was the least serious - mostly to tie the Krytans up than a serious attempt at conquest, I think.

Humans are a threat to the Charr, they took Ascalon from Orr in the first place according to new lore, so why would they trust humanity to not invade again?

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Wait. This is not how it went. Adelbern is the one who recalled the Ebonvanguard from the Eye of the North who later formed the Ebonhawke after their king went insane and used the Foefire. Without a king, they have no choice but to ask for Kryta's assistance. I don't recall Salma ever extended assistance to Adelbern other than helping the Ascalonian refugees.

Ebonhawke was founded in 1080 AE. Foefire occurred in 1090 AE. Adelbern did recall the Ebon Vanguard, in 1080, and shortly after sent them south to guard against "a growing threat" in the south after he had seen their popularity outweigh his own. They did not establish Ebonhawke after the Foefire.

Besides that, that's not what Drax was talking about. He was talking about Abaddon directing the titans, who in turn was directing the charr. The charr discovered and adopted the titans as gods in approx 870 AE - 200 years before the Searing. The titans led the charr not only into performing the Searing in 1070 AE, but also assaulting Kryta and Orr. The titans' ultimate goal - or rather, Abaddon's - was to destroy Arah/Orr by all indication, so Abaddon had manipulated both sides of the conflict (charr and Khilbron).

The Foefire happened 20 years after the Searing - 11 years after the last events of Guild Wars 1 - and 18/17 years after what Drax is talking about there.

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:If I recall correctly, the Guild Wars is between Ascalon, Kryta, and Orr. This is why it didn't make sense for Charr to attack either Kryta or Orr, the enemy of my enemy kind of thing.

Except the charr's "enemy" was not "Ascalon" it was "humanity".

Furthermore, as above, the charr adopted agents of Abaddon as their gods, and Abaddon's enemies were the other Five Gods, and he wanted to destroy Arah and the faithful of Orr to get back at them.

Kryta was more an attack of opportunity, as best we can tell, and part of the cover up to motivate charr to assault Orr. After all, it would be easier to sell "attack all nations of your hated enemies that is humanity" over "attack just these two nations of your hated enemies that is humanity".

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Ascalon is Charr land if you played GW1.

Even with GW2's added lore, Ascalon was only "charr land" for a single generation. In GW1, Ascalon still belonged to the charr. Furthermore, the first indication that Ascalon had ever been charr territory came in 2007 with The Ecology of the Charr.

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Charr attacking Orr and Kryta never made sense then, it doesn't make sense now.

Beyond that, in fact, "helping Ascalon against the charr" was part of the offer made to the Ebon Vanguard as well. The Vanguard essentially accepted the offer as having been made in good faith and entered the War in Kryta without waiting for the deal to be ratified. Adelbern, however, was unwilling to accept this help - in fact, it's been implied that part of Adelbern's motivation for recalling the Vanguard was because he was angry at them for fraternising with the Krytans and wanted to put them somewhere where they wouldn't have the opportunity.

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Charr attacking Orr and Kryta never made sense then, it doesn't make sense now.

I don't recall that Evennia successfully and officially made the offer. King Adelbern refused to give her audience so he might not even know if she's there to offer Krytan assistance. He can't possibly reject or accept something that was not yet offered. So as far as the current story goes, such assistance was never offered.

Now, imagine if Orr had survived - from what I recall, Adelbern had no irrational hatred of Orrians, so if Orr hadn't been destroyed, there's a good chance that Adelbern would have accepted Orrian assistance and retained control of Ascalon south of the Wall.

Why the Charr? The Titans could've done it themselves. If Abaddon is pulling the Titan's string as the Titans' are pulling the Charr's string, it would have been more efficient and effective to simply send the Titans. I mean, Abaddon didn't do this 3 layers of puppeteering in Elona.

And prior to GW2's announcement, there was no indication that Ascalon was once charr land, so why wouldn't they try to hit all three kingdoms if they could?

"Long after the Forgotten stopped threatening the Charr, the Humans appeared and, with the help of their Gods, pushed the Charr from their southern borders, conquering the land that became known as Ascalon in 100 BE."Source

Mind you, it does seem as if the attack on Kryta was the least serious - mostly to tie the Krytans up than a serious attempt at conquest, I think.

That still doesn't make sense. How come the Charr doesn't hold such animosity against the Norn who pushed them out of the Shiverpeaks, instead they respect the Norn's strength? Yet, when it comes to humans, instead of respecting the human's strength for pushing them out of Ascalon and holding them off at the Northern Walls that led them to have themselves enslaved to the Titans, they hold such ferocious animosity. It doesn't make sense when the Norn is the, literally, bigger threat.

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

I don't recall that Evennia successfully and officially made the offer. King Adelbern refused to give her audience so he might not even know if she's there to offer Krytan assistance. He can't possibly reject or accept something that was not yet offered. So as far as the current story goes, such assistance was never offered.

She did successfully make the offer to the Ebon Vanguard, however, who were agents of the Ascalonian state. Ambassador Zain also made the same offer on behalf of the White Mantle, and we know that Adelbern heard about that one... and his response was to marshal the guards to arrest him and try him 'as a traitor of this nation', nevermind that he was Krytan.

Why the Charr? The Titans could've done it themselves. If Abaddon is pulling the Titan's string as the Titans' are pulling the Charr's string, it would have been more efficient and effective to simply send the Titans. I mean, Abaddon didn't do this 3 layers of puppeteering in Elona.

Because this was two hundred years before Nightfall. From everything we've seen, Abaddon was at that point capable of sending individual agents through, but it wouldn't be until after Varesh's rituals (or by opening the Door of Komalie) that he was able to get whole armies into Tyria.

"Long after the Forgotten stopped threatening the Charr, the Humans appeared and, with the help of their Gods, pushed the Charr from their southern borders, conquering the land that became known as Ascalon in 100 BE."SourceCheck the edit history. That was added to the page after GW2 was announced, based on information from an out-of-game article intended to introduce us to the charr as a playable faction.

That still doesn't make sense. How come the Charr doesn't hold such animosity against the Norn who pushed them out of the Shiverpeaks, instead they respect the Norn's strength? Yet, when it comes to humans, instead of respecting the human's strength for pushing them out of Ascalon and holding them off at the Northern Walls that led them to have themselves enslaved to the Titans, they hold such ferocious animosity. It doesn't make sense when the Norn is the, literally, bigger threat.

A couple of reasons. First off, the norn repulsed some half-hearted charr encroachment on their territory. We're told outright that even a single Legion could've succeeded in conquering the norn, whereas the humans had been holding strong, and even winning, against the whole weight of the charr for centuries.

By contrast, humans encroached on charr territory, but even more important, they were the ones who brought an end to charr supremacy. They overcame the undefeated legions of the Khan-Ur, and in the process the Khan-Ur himself died, sparking off a civil war that brought the charr's golden age crashing down on their heads. Nine hundred years of internecine warfare and, essentially, the charr equivalent to the dark ages, while the humans profited and expanded on their weakness, even carving their first nation out of charr territory. Given that it's not part of the charr cultural makeup to own their own roll in their defeats, that's a whole lot of disaster that they can blame squarely on the humans and their gods. (Which is another factor- they don't think that the 'mice' were actually stronger than them, just that they had an unfair ally in their gods.)

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:That still doesn't make sense. How come the Charr doesn't hold such animosity against the Norn who pushed them out of the Shiverpeaks, instead they respect the Norn's strength? Yet, when it comes to humans, instead of respecting the human's strength for pushing them out of Ascalon and holding them off at the Northern Walls that led them to have themselves enslaved to the Titans, they hold such ferocious animosity. It doesn't make sense when the Norn is the, literally, bigger threat.

The norn never conquered lands that charr had already conquered first. They also met humans before norn, and their conflict with norn were only skirmishes due to the millennia long war with humans.

Hatreds tend to build over wars, rather than skirmishes. Especially if both happen at the same time.

And humans are blamed for the death of the Khan-Ur (whether this is true or not has not been verified), and were only able to succeed - according to the charr - due to the aid of their gods, which marked the humans as "individually weak but defiant and thus not learning their proper place" whereas norn succeeded on their own, thus had personal and individual strength, thus worth respect.

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

I don't recall that Evennia successfully and officially made the offer. King Adelbern refused to give her audience so he might not even know if she's there to offer Krytan assistance. He can't possibly reject or accept something that was not yet offered. So as far as the current story goes, such assistance was never offered.

Zain was not representing the Salma. It is not the point I was replying to. Whether the Ebon Vanguard relayed the offer from Evennia to the King, I cannot be sure nor can I find any reference that such offer reached the King's ears. If you can point me to the information, that would be great.

Why the Charr? The Titans could've done it themselves. If Abaddon is pulling the Titan's string as the Titans' are pulling the Charr's string, it would have been more efficient and effective to simply send the Titans. I mean, Abaddon didn't do this 3 layers of puppeteering in Elona.

Ok, that makes sense. However, I still think there have got to be a reason. For instance, why would the Vizier go to such degree that obliterated the whole kingdom of Orr? I would understand if the Charr attacked Orr to retrieve something and he was said to have read the scroll to protect Arah. Well, we went to Arah and I still think something is missing from that narrative. What is there worth protecting?

"Long after the Forgotten stopped threatening the Charr, the Humans appeared and, with the help of their Gods, pushed the Charr from their southern borders, conquering the land that became known as Ascalon in 100 BE."

Source

Check the edit history. That was added to the page after GW2 was announced, based on information from an out-of-game article intended to introduce us to the charr as a playable faction.

If that is not the case, then what's that point of the invasion? Why attack the humans at all?

That still doesn't make sense. How come the Charr doesn't hold such animosity against the Norn who pushed them out of the Shiverpeaks, instead they respect the Norn's strength? Yet, when it comes to humans, instead of respecting the human's strength for pushing them out of Ascalon and holding them off at the Northern Walls that led them to have themselves enslaved to the Titans, they hold such ferocious animosity. It doesn't make sense when the Norn is the, literally, bigger threat.

As you pointed out above, that information was in GW2 not in GW1. As far as GW1 is concerned, the Norn and the Charr just had a truce.

By contrast, humans encroached on charr territory, but even more important, they were the ones who brought an end to charr supremacy. They overcame the undefeated legions of the Khan-Ur, and in the process the Khan-Ur himself died, sparking off a civil war that brought the charr's golden age crashing down on their heads. Nine hundred years of internecine warfare and, essentially, the charr equivalent to the dark ages, while the humans profited and expanded on their weakness, even carving their first nation out of charr territory. Given that it's not part of the charr cultural makeup to own their own roll in their defeats, that's a whole lot of disaster that they can blame squarely on the humans and their gods. (Which is another factor- they don't think that the 'mice' were actually stronger than them, just that they had an unfair ally in their gods.)

Charr territory? I thought you said Ascalon was not Charr's -- now I'm even more confused.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

I don't recall that Evennia successfully and officially made the offer. King Adelbern refused to give her audience so he might not even know if she's there to offer Krytan assistance. He can't possibly reject or accept something that was not yet offered. So as far as the current story goes, such assistance was never offered.

The point is that Adelbern responds to a Krytan offer of assistance by attempting to kill the emissary. You don't get to use ignorance as an excuse if you deliberately kill a messenger before the message can be delivered.

Why the Charr? The Titans could've done it themselves. If Abaddon is pulling the Titan's string as the Titans' are pulling the Charr's string, it would have been more efficient and effective to simply send the Titans. I mean, Abaddon didn't do this 3 layers of puppeteering in Elona.

"Long after the Forgotten stopped threatening the Charr, the Humans appeared and, with the help of their Gods, pushed the Charr from their southern borders, conquering the land that became known as Ascalon in 100 BE."

Source

Check the edit history. That was added to the page after GW2 was announced, based on information from an out-of-game article intended to introduce us to the charr as a playable faction.

That still doesn't make sense. How come the Charr doesn't hold such animosity against the Norn who pushed them out of the Shiverpeaks, instead they respect the Norn's strength? Yet, when it comes to humans, instead of respecting the human's strength for pushing them out of Ascalon and holding them off at the Northern Walls that led them to have themselves enslaved to the Titans, they hold such ferocious animosity. It doesn't make sense when the Norn is the, literally, bigger threat.

By contrast, humans encroached on charr territory, but even more important, they were the ones who brought an end to charr supremacy. They overcame the undefeated legions of the Khan-Ur, and in the process the Khan-Ur himself died, sparking off a civil war that brought the charr's golden age crashing down on their heads. Nine hundred years of internecine warfare and, essentially, the charr equivalent to the dark ages, while the humans profited and expanded on their weakness, even carving their first nation out of charr territory. Given that it's not part of the charr cultural makeup to own their own roll in their defeats, that's a whole lot of disaster that they can blame squarely on the humans and their gods. (Which is another factor- they don't think that the 'mice' were actually stronger than them, just that they had an unfair ally in their gods.)

Actually, the charr/norn respect was present in EOTN, although they weren't nearly as chummy as they are in GW2 (obviously). There were some warbands who, on their own initiative or under orders from the shamans, did try to take pieces of norn territory. The norn generally responded by driving them out... but because of the norn philosophy of only blaming individuals and not the cultures that the individuals came from, the norn generally didn't engage in reprisals against the charr and generally let charr pass through their territories unopposed as long as the charr in question weren't attacking norn. Olfun Longeye (of Longeye's Ledge), for instance, allowed both the Ebon Vanguard and the charr to use his stead as a stopping point, as long as they didn't fight there.

Generally speaking, I think the norn did prefer humans over charr in EOTN, a state of affairs that changed since.

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

I don't recall that Evennia successfully and officially made the offer. King Adelbern refused to give her audience so he might not even know if she's there to offer Krytan assistance. He can't possibly reject or accept something that was not yet offered. So as far as the current story goes, such assistance was never offered.

That's beside the point though. I was responding to this;"Ascalon City itself might have held out if Adelbern had accepted Salma's assistance"

I also doubt that the White Mantle will send aid and I'm sure Adelbern knew that also.

Why the Charr? The Titans could've done it themselves. If Abaddon is pulling the Titan's string as the Titans' are pulling the Charr's string, it would have been more efficient and effective to simply send the Titans. I mean, Abaddon didn't do this 3 layers of puppeteering in Elona.

But why? To what purpose does the destruction of Orr serves Abaddon? It would be reasonable that the Vizier is protecting something powerful that he didn't want the Charr to have and that it will survive even if he blows up everything. Which will not make sense if the Vizier is under Abaddon's control. If Abaddon want's something, he would compel the Vizier to give him what he wants instead of blowing up the place.

Also it is strategically folly to invade all three kingdoms at the same time. First it stretches your army thin. Second the attacking warband will be cut off from supply chain (unless it is a suicide mission). Last, there is nothing to gain.

Strategically, while they are attacking Ascalon, it is better to simply establish a defensive perimeter and forward base. The Black Citadel is the perfect result of that. Then from Rin, they can launch a campaign against Orr and then Kryta. Attacking Kryta would require another forward base on the other side of the Shiverpeak. The supply line to each base will connect to the Black Citadel. By attacking one kingdom at a time, they can focus all their strength on one kingdom. Since this didn't happen, the Black Citadel doesn't make sense, nor the attack on Orr and Kryta.

As I've said, I would understand if the Charr attacked Orr and Kryta to retrieve something for Abaddon, but until today, I still can't find the reason.

"Long after the Forgotten stopped threatening the Charr, the Humans appeared and, with the help of their Gods, pushed the Charr from their southern borders, conquering the land that became known as Ascalon in 100 BE."

Source

Check the edit history. That was added to the page after GW2 was announced, based on information from an out-of-game article intended to introduce us to the charr as a playable faction.

That still doesn't make sense. How come the Charr doesn't hold such animosity against the Norn who pushed them out of the Shiverpeaks, instead they respect the Norn's strength? Yet, when it comes to humans, instead of respecting the human's strength for pushing them out of Ascalon and holding them off at the Northern Walls that led them to have themselves enslaved to the Titans, they hold such ferocious animosity. It doesn't make sense when the Norn is the, literally, bigger threat.

Attacking Kryta would mean that they have to mobilize a large army over the Shiverpeaks and the Norn would see that as an invasion of their land. Yet, nothing of the sort occurred and somehow the Norn allows the movement of large troops on their territory without compensations nor challenge. However, the Norn did challenge the Charr and they simply agree? When the human challenge the Charr, they hate them and want to kill all of them? I simply don't buy that. What makes the Charr hate humans so much? The only plausible reason is that the humans took their land. The Norn didn't take and Charr lands, so this way it makes more sense.

By contrast, humans encroached on charr territory, but even more important, they were the ones who brought an end to charr supremacy. They overcame the undefeated legions of the Khan-Ur, and in the process the Khan-Ur himself died, sparking off a civil war that brought the charr's golden age crashing down on their heads. Nine hundred years of internecine warfare and, essentially, the charr equivalent to the dark ages, while the humans profited and expanded on their weakness, even carving their first nation out of charr territory. Given that it's not part of the charr cultural makeup to own their own roll in their defeats, that's a whole lot of disaster that they can blame squarely on the humans and their gods. (Which is another factor- they don't think that the 'mice' were actually stronger than them, just that they had an unfair ally in their gods.)

That's right. So regardless of the absence of this fact in GW1, I believe that the developer had this in mind and shared it with us in GW2. Which as I've said above is the most believable reason why the Charr hates the humans and not the Norn. Ok, the Charr took back Ascalon, there's still no reason to attack Orr and Kryta unless Abaddon wants something from those places. If that was the case, what could Abaddon possibly want in Kryta and Orr?

So, first, because I've been annoyed by this even though I didn't respond previously:

Claiming that Adelbern wasn't offered Krytan assistance against the charr because he refused to listen to the offer is splitting a pretty fine hair. Refusing to listen to an offer that the other side made every reasonable effort to deliver is a decision on the refuser's part to reject the offer before they even know what the offer is, it does not change the fact that the offer was made. If I receive an offer from a bank for a pre-approved credit card and I burn the envelope without reading it, the bank still made the offer.

Second, as for what purpose the destruction of Orr serves Abaddon:

Revenge, primarily. Arah was the holy city of the gods - drowning Orr allowed Abaddon to cast down their cathedrals and followers into the depths, just like the gods cast down his cathedral. There's also the likelihood that, if the gods had set up some contingency to help humans fight against Abaddon should he return, any such contingency would be in Orr: destroying Orr, therefor, removes that possibility.

The attack on Kryta, to me, always felt like a side theater for the titans and the charr. They'd have taken it if they could, for sure, but I think the objective there was simply to keep Kryta from interfering in Ascalon or Orr. It's possible that Abaddon also wanted to entice the mursaat to commit to Kryta, in order to set up the chain of dominoes that would bring the Vizier to the Door of Komali.

Drax covered the Adelbern thing better than I've been doing, so I'll leave that there.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

Why the Charr? The Titans could've done it themselves. If Abaddon is pulling the Titan's string as the Titans' are pulling the Charr's string, it would have been more efficient and effective to simply send the Titans. I mean, Abaddon didn't do this 3 layers of puppeteering in Elona.

On top of what drax has already listed, there's also a possibility that it brought Abaddon one step closer to freedom. Part of Varesh's campaign to weaken his prison enough to bring on Nightfall was the desecration of holy places, and Orr in general, Arah in particular, were the holiest places on Tyria. Their destruction by a servant of Abaddon may have been what enabled Varesh's smaller efforts to bring on Nightfall three years later.

Also it is strategically folly to invade all three kingdoms at the same time. First it stretches your army thin. Second the attacking warband will be cut off from supply chain (unless it is a suicide mission). Last, there is nothing to gain.Correct. But go back and read that lore snippet at the top of the GW1 wiki's charr page. At the time they weren't driven by strategy, or rationality. They were driven by religious zealotry. When the gods who'd finally pulled their race back together, restored their purpose, and, most importantly to the charr mindset, given them victory told them to attack Orr and Kryta, they took it on faith. Their defeats on both of those fronts, and especially their gods' defeat a year later, were a major part of what broke them from that mindset and led to the strategic charr of GW2.

Attacking Kryta would mean that they have to mobilize a large army over the Shiverpeaks and the Norn would see that as an invasion of their land. Yet, nothing of the sort occurred and somehow the Norn allows the movement of large troops on their territory without compensations nor challenge.

Again, something drax has already covered. The norn had no issue with the charr moving forces through their land as long as there was an understanding that they were moving through, and yes, they stood aside and let it happen so the charr could get to Kryta. It's when the charr try to seize norn lands, or attack the norn directly, that the norn take issue.

Also, I feel like you're misunderstanding the entire Norn culture in these games. There is likely no such place as "Norn lands". There are no recognized borders that enclose an area that belong to the Norn outside of individual homesteads. No countries with boundaries to violate. Just land that Norn happen to live on and build homesteads on. Charr (or humans and Asura) walking through the same land is not a violation or affront to any sovereign territory, which Norn do not hold. That was kind of the issue with your PC's in GW1 trying to recruit the Norn to rally against the destroyers. You tried to rally them into an army or militarized force, and that level of organization just did not exist to them. So you just got whatever brave Norn had nothing better to do that day. So, in short, the Charr did not offend any Norn by just walking past their houses. They didn't invade any territory, because Norn didn't really have any concept of what territory even is. Just don't wreck their buildings as you go by and everything is fine. That might be a little different now in GW2, but that was certainly the case in the timeframe that the Charr were walking through

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:Drax covered the Adelbern thing better than I've been doing, so I'll leave that there.

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

Why the Charr? The Titans could've done it themselves. If Abaddon is pulling the Titan's string as the Titans' are pulling the Charr's string, it would have been more efficient and effective to simply send the Titans. I mean, Abaddon didn't do this 3 layers of puppeteering in Elona.

If Abaddon controls Khilbron, he could just obliterate the whole place without the need for a Charr invasion. However, I can understand if the access to the Cataclysm Scroll is sealed off with a "break seal in case of invasion" instruction sign. This explanation makes more sense than the Charr trying to prevent reinforcements.

Also it is strategically folly to invade all three kingdoms at the same time. First it stretches your army thin. Second the attacking warband will be cut off from supply chain (unless it is a suicide mission). Last, there is nothing to gain.Correct. But go back and read that lore snippet at the top of the GW1 wiki's charr page. At the time they weren't driven by strategy, or rationality. They were driven by religious zealotry. When the gods who'd finally pulled their race back together, restored their purpose, and, most importantly to the charr mindset, given them victory told them to attack Orr and Kryta, they took it on faith. Their defeats on both of those fronts, and especially their gods' defeat a year later, were a major part of what broke them from that mindset and led to the strategic charr of GW2.

Well, there was a purpose in Orr as you've mentioned above. So what's their purpose in Kryta? Yes, they are following a blind faith, but there has to be a purpose.

Attacking Kryta would mean that they have to mobilize a large army over the Shiverpeaks and the Norn would see that as an invasion of their land. Yet, nothing of the sort occurred and somehow the Norn allows the movement of large troops on their territory without compensations nor challenge.

My point was, there was a conflict between the Norn and the Charr, yet the Charr never has such hate towards the Norn that they have against the humans. So I'm curious to know if they are preventing the human from something -- Ascension? fulfillment of the Prophesy? the Scepter of Orr? I have no clue. What do you think they want in Kryta? There are some pieces I might have missed or simply doesn't make sense.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

Again, something drax has already covered. The norn had no issue with the charr moving forces through their land as long as there was an understanding that they were moving

through

, and yes, they stood aside and let it happen so the charr could get to Kryta. It's when the charr try to seize norn lands, or attack the norn directly, that the norn take issue.

Hatreds are, almost by definition, not rational.

However, charr-norn conflict has always been pretty low-key and a low priority for the charr hierarchy, and it's also one where the charr are the clear aggressors and haven't lost anything bar a few soldiers.

Meanwhile, from the charr perspective at least (I do think there may be more to it that we haven't been told) the humans were the aggressors, whose invasion seized a large portion of what the charr viewed as their territory and ended a charr golden age. To our knowledge, unless you count Kralkatorrik (and perhaps not even then), nobody in the recorded history of the charr has delivered such a defeat to the charr. Ergo, it makes sense for them to have a special hatred for humans that they don't have for other enemies.

There may even be a certain degree of embarrassment to it. Losing skirmishes to ten-foot giants who can turn into giant bears and wolves is one thing. Losing to a bunch of soft-skinned 'mice' half their size is something entirely different.

In this context... their hatred may be so strong that 'kill all humans' was sufficient motivation to attack Kryta. And if they'd won in Kryta then that represents that much more territory for the charr.

Like I've said, though, Kryta going to the aid of Orr or even Ascalon was a possibility that the titans, if not the charr themselves, would likely consider. A (relatively) small force attacking Kryta might not be seriously expected to win there and then, but might be enough to tie up the Krytan military from going somewhere else where they might cause more trouble than tying up a single charr army.

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

Again, something drax has already covered. The norn had no issue with the charr moving forces through their land as long as there was an understanding that they were moving

through

, and yes, they stood aside and let it happen so the charr could get to Kryta. It's when the charr try to seize norn lands, or attack the norn directly, that the norn take issue.

Thanks, that actually made a lot of sense. It reminds me of the Roman Hatred for Carthage and nothing but total annihilation is the only justice.

Like I've said, though, Kryta going to the aid of Orr or even Ascalon was a possibility that the titans, if not the charr themselves, would likely consider. A (relatively) small force attacking Kryta might not be seriously expected to win there and then, but might be enough to tie up the Krytan military from going somewhere else where they might cause more trouble than tying up a single charr army.

Well, according to the lore the Charr did win. The Charr sent a force (it has to be significant enough of a force) to destroy the Krytan forces and caused fear to the sitting king that he abandoned the throne. This is when the White Mantle stepped up to the plate. As far as we can see in the game, the Krytan forces were reduced to a few Lionguards.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

Well, according to the lore the Charr did win. The Charr sent a force (it has to be significant enough of a force) to destroy the Krytan forces and caused fear to the sitting king that he abandoned the throne. This is when the White Mantle stepped up to the plate. As far as we can see in the game, the Krytan forces were reduced to a few Lionguards.

The impression I had is that the king jumped the gun and fled before the military campaign begun in earnest, leaving a leadership vacuum in Kryta (which Saul and the White Mantle would fill). If King Zolan had remained and organised a defence, his efforts would probably have been about as effective as the White Mantle's, albeit without the benefit of mursaat intervention.

Whether Kryta would have won in the end without the mursaat is difficult to say. As far as I know there weren't any Searing Cauldrons brought to Kryta, which removes that deus ex machina as well as indicating that it was the least important front for the charr.

This is assuming that King Jadon fled. All we know is that he "abandoned the throne" - we never learned the circumstances surrounding it. Did people actually see him up and run away? Or did he just disappear suddenly and people merely assumed he fled? Given that it happened simultaneous with a rise of a certain cult worshiping invisible powerful spellcasters, it wouldn't be unsurprising if there were some foul play involved, especially since as drax said the implication was that he fled pretty early on in the charr conflict.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:This is assuming that King Jadon fled. All we know is that he "abandoned the throne" - we never learned the circumstances surrounding it. Did people actually see him up and run away? Or did he just disappear suddenly and people merely assumed he fled? Given that it happened simultaneous with a rise of a certain cult worshiping invisible powerful spellcasters, it wouldn't be unsurprising if there were some foul play involved, especially since as drax said the implication was that he fled pretty early on in the charr conflict.

That is an interesting angle and it's more plausible given how the White Mantle was fighting to prevent Salma from taking the throne.