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Make spending Life Force punishing


Agrippa.1693

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Because there are SO many concerns with the Necro (core AND specializations) and/or the meta not having a place for the Necro, it's extremely difficult and maybe even impossible to fix the situation. So I thought, maybe really stupid, but let's be radical and 'KISS' (Keep It Simple Stupid) at the same time. What about making spending life force punishing to it's opponents, and the Necro him/her-self! So basically, change the cap of life force to ... say: 50% and every time you spent life force (via shroud or spirit abilities) you loose the same amount of life! But, (of course there's a but) considerably buff all the life-force spending skills (shroud skills, etc.), making them undeniable top dps (or healing for that matter) in everything. High risk, high reward, choose wisely!Make the Necro a true master of life and death!

Again, maybe a bit too crazy, and radical, but it will definitely change the meta, it's fairly easy to implement (I think the hardest part would be to buff the appropriate skills) and will finally fix that whole 'largest health pool and 2nd health bar = OP' problem (maybe the biggest issue of the Necro overall).

What do you guys think?

(sorry if this has already been mentioned before, I've read quite a few posts, but definitely not all!)

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Eh. I think a better approach for gameplay health (albeit a probably controversial one, and will probably lose some unique flavor from the class), is to not make your life force a second health bar when you enter shroud. I'd let Necros keep the 50% damage reduction, but attacks will still damage their health pool. This would probably require faster draining of your life force while in shroud, or having shroud skills require more life force to cast, due to attacks no longer depleting it.

Necro would require almost a complete overhaul for this though, as they would be losing their second healthbar, and would need defensive options added and buffed to compensate for that (along with maybe a small heal upon entering shroud as a baseline effect?). If the work were put into doing this change correctly though, it would remove the balancing nightmare of having 2 healthbars, while still keeping most of the flavor of life force and it being a limit on being able to cast your shroud skills.

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It won't be high reward, will it? As you've said, part of what makes necromancers strong isn't so much the abilities themselves but that due to the survivability afforded by shroud you actually get to execute your abilities in the field. Perhaps at one time it was regarded as overpowered but not anymore. Right now there is so much condition damage, so much burst, so many stomps and pulls and other interrupts - that other classes without easy access to stability or even just the buffer of an extended life bar are easy bags for those that do; Warriors, Daredevils, etc.

If you feel that after the launch of PoF it's tougher in pvp or wvw, well.. you aren't alone. It is. If you're feeling you aren't able to do as much damage in a given window as you'd want to against some of these overdone elites the same goes for that. But the problem isn't with your necro. It's with the overdone professions. It's just my opinion but you don't want to actually throw away one of the few advantages necros now enjoy do you?

Every succeeding update has been driving necros further and further into using shroud just to stay alive- sort of the way most engineer builds are forced to take alchemy. If shroud form is changed in this fashion they're going to have to rebuild the necromancer from the ground up into a twitch class just to compensate for the times when your shroud is burst within a matter of seconds. If you've then built for shroud and you find you aren't in shroud enough to justify the build what then? Then the talent lines built around shroud enhancement become worthless. That would be a shame.

I curse other necros when I play against them on other professions but it's tempered with knowing why they do it. Necros suck with out shroud. So as much as I curse I don't begrudge them of that advantage. Something has to counter the other flavours of cheese out there, after all.. Necros/GW2's problems are the same as most other mmos out there- Anet needs to pull back on power creep and adding new elites and take the time to truly balance out what's currently being played in all modes.

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@"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:Because there are SO many concerns with the Necro (core AND specializations) and/or the meta not having a place for the Necro, it's extremely difficult and maybe even impossible to fix the situation. So I thought, maybe really stupid, but let's be radical and 'KISS' (Keep It Simple Stupid) at the same time. What about making spending life force punishing to it's opponents, and the Necro him/her-self! So basically, change the cap of life force to ... say: 50% and every time you spent life force (via shroud or spirit abilities) you loose the same amount of life! But, (of course there's a but) considerably buff all the life-force spending skills (shroud skills, etc.), making them undeniable top dps (or healing for that matter) in everything. High risk, high reward, choose wisely!Make the Necro a true master of life and death!

Again, maybe a bit too crazy, and radical, but it will definitely change the meta, it's fairly easy to implement (I think the hardest part would be to buff the appropriate skills) and will finally fix that whole 'largest health pool and 2nd health bar = OP' problem (maybe the biggest issue of the Necro overall).

What do you guys think?

(sorry if this has already been mentioned before, I've read quite a few posts, but definitely not all!)

I'd be down for this only if necros healing abilities become better.Your idea really reminds me of warlocks of wow who use their health for spells, or necromancers in everquest who fuel their magic by draining their health slowly to recover their mana, which would be a awesome idea as a flavor.Heck, i'd even accept using your own life to fuel the life of your pets "IF" we get really cool pets and stronger pets worthwild that we can summon, like using your own life to summon maybe a pet instead of mana? or both?

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@Iozeph.5617 said:If you feel that after the launch of PoF it's tougher in pvp or wvw, well.. you aren't alone. It is. If you're feeling you aren't able to do as much damage in a given window as you'd want to against some of these overdone elites the same goes for that. But the problem isn't with your necro. It's with the overdone professions. It's just my opinion but you don't want to actually throw away one of the few advantages necros now enjoy do you?

Well, that advantage is also the main problem why they can never be and were never in balance with other professions. If you buff the shroud and shades significantly in way of DPS and Healing (whatever you spec yourself with), but at the same time you get punished as the Necro by using it: also significantly (up to 50% of your health pool), you have to choose your play-style wisely. Either know mechanics very well, and/or have a healer friend next to you to support you, have some way/skills to heal yourself afterwards and even have to spec for it (healing power), have meat shields to shield you from where the action happens, self awareness, placement, etc, etc, etc.

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Interesting. I'm not quite on board with it, although I would be okay with losing that second health bar if it means better balance and more of that GW1 necromancer play style I love so much. I'd like to blitz through my health with sacrifice skills and steal it from my foe to get back close to Max.

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I don't think they necromancer population could handle self punishment type play. Make a thread crying about the self condi of corruption skills and watch it explode with thumbs up and +1ing.

One thing that hasn't held up well in the power creep of the game is necromancers life force gain/spend. It strongly favors condition builds but is comparatively punishing to power builds. Revenant is similar in that you don't have to spend as much resource on condi builds to survive but revenant gains energy at the same rate regardless of build and it cannot be denied like life force granting attacks of necro can be.

Every new defensive power creep wave in game carves into necromancer lifeforce gain.

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@Justine.6351 said:I don't think they necromancer population could handle self punishment type play.

Well, that's the thing, you don't have to use your life force! Maybe even add a trait that you have extra life or other defensive perk if you're on 100% life force, so you can still cater to the casual Necro's in PVE. They will still be very underpowered in sense of DPS (no change there :) ), and have their defense! But make it a choice, instead of a given!

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I think the Necro as a class is already punished enough as it is with out needing changes to shroud. Many core abilities have negative effects on the Necro as it is so why continue with this idea that if we suffer enough perhaps we will be viable?

The Dev's need to address the core issues with the class first and once those are resolved they can look at small tweaks to fine tune the class. If anything the base Necro Shroud could use a bit spit and polish as there is virtually no reason to use it anymore.

And if anyone finds where this "Heavy Utility" feature is for the Scourge could you let me know?

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We have NO good Self or group UtilityWe have NO MobilityWe DON'T have good multiple def CDsSome of our own Abilities damages usOur only defensive ability removes majority of out abilities while active....

We are the Most Punished Class already in the entire game ... and for what ? to be mediocre................................

so... NO if anything we need LESS of a Punishing play style....

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I don't understand that so many Necromancers by heart, still don't see that we're not going to be buffed significantly at all. Look at the history guys, even look at a recent post from a dev on these forums: "we're going to buff the Necro/Scourge, but it will never be as good as before the Dhuumfire nerf/bug ..."We deserve to be on top of pretty much everything (DPS, CC, Support, etc.) if you consider our terrible history. But again, this will never EVER get in those skulls of the balance team, and those recent changes ("bug fixes") are again a perfect example of it. We finally were on top of a chart (Condi DPS), and we get nerfed into the ground only a couple of weeks later ...All this considered, it's safe to say that the Necro community and ArenaNet's balance team are each others worst enemies at the moment. Now you can do 2 things, that's continue enraging the war (which we as Necros by heart will loose and lets be honest are losing for some years already), or offer a truce (at least from our side) by punishing ourselves even more ... We are Necros after all, gotta love the dark side of things :) ! Maybe then the balance team will actually get out of their Necro-proof bunkers and start rewarding us in other fields (let us be THE best DPS and/or healers/support out there as long as it's punishing to be so). Tit for tat ... maybe we can get onto speaking terms again ...

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We deserve to be on top of pretty much everything (DPS, CC, Support, etc.)

No. We deserve to be AS good as other professions at multiple roles, just like every other profession, but not above them. Past history is no justification for OPness.

Otherwise we get into the territory of the resident "necro must be worse than (insert my profession) because a necro defeated me once and I feel necros should never be allowed to do that" trolls, like mygamingid and company.

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@Maunzi.3764 said:

We deserve to be on top of pretty much everything (DPS, CC, Support, etc.)

No. We deserve to be AS good as other professions at multiple roles, just like every other profession, but not above them. Past history is no justification for OPness.

Otherwise we get into the territory of the resident "necro must be worse than (insert my profession) because a necro defeated me once and I feel necros should never be allowed to do that" trolls, like mygamingid and company.

we were good as others in highend fractals and raids when Scourge got released....then we got "Bug fixed" and ended up so bad that necros even got removed from Meta Build sites..... then a dev came and told us we can never be as good like that because Scourge has "Strong Support"......

Soooooo... yeah.....

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@Maunzi.3764 said:

We deserve to be on top of pretty much everything (DPS, CC, Support, etc.)

No. We deserve to be AS good as other professions at multiple roles, just like every other profession, but not above them. Past history is no justification for OPness.

Otherwise we get into the territory of the resident "necro must be worse than (insert my profession) because a necro defeated me once and I feel necros should never be allowed to do that" trolls, like mygamingid and company.

Why exactly is time not considered to be a factor in the balancing equation? I mean, either way ... fine by me, I do not have a major opinion on it, and I'm perfectly fine being as good as all the other professions (which atm we're clearly not), but why??? Like, really with good arguments, not like: 'just because' .... Because that argument is in favor with time itself .... Just because: time exists!

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I really don't think that people that play Necro want to be better than other classes, but they do want to be equal and viable. I personally believe in order to do this they need to address the issues in core Necro first and move forward from there.

They really need to move and or improve the trait lines, address weapon damage and even weapon cool downs.

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@Laiboch.4380 said:I really don't think that people that play Necro want to be better than other classes, but they do want to be equal and viable. I personally believe in order to do this they need to address the issues in core Necro first and move forward from there.

They really need to move and or improve the trait lines, address weapon damage and even weapon cool downs.

I'm perfectly fine with that, it just makes balancing a LOT more difficult if not impossible ... Take raids for instance (just an example, but you could state this for PVE and WvW as a whole (not sPvP I'm afraid, there is no squad/team 9v9, 10v10+ mode), its just the most easy example), in a perfectly balanced world, the optimal team would consist of 9 different professions and an arbitrary (roll the dice) 10th spot. It's not and haven't been pretty much from the start. And sorry guys, I really have to side with ANet's balance team here, it's really complex to even get close to a(n) (almost) perfect balance in such a way. It's just never gonna happen. So the whole "as equal and viable as all other classes" thing is a Utopia. ... And maybe it could be because of a certain degree of incompetence within the balance team, but I don't think getting even close to class equality is an option either. So in that case let us be a bit - NOT a lot - better than the rest, even if we have to be punished for it in a different sense (see opening post), I still believe we deserve it!OR let me put it differently, in the exact same raid example as above: why do those 4 (maybe 5) professions that have been dominating the raids for quite some time now deserve it more than those other 5 (or 4)???

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@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Laiboch.4380 said:I really don't think that people that play Necro want to be better than other classes, but they do want to be equal and viable. I personally believe in order to do this they need to address the issues in core Necro first and move forward from there.

They really need to move and or improve the trait lines, address weapon damage and even weapon cool downs.

I'm perfectly fine with that, it just makes balancing a LOT more difficult if not impossible ... Take raids for instance (just an example, but you could state this for PVE and WvW as a whole (not sPvP I'm afraid, there is no squad/team 9v9, 10v10+ mode), its just the most easy example), in a perfectly balanced world, the optimal team would consist of 9 different professions and an arbitrary (roll the dice) 10th spot. It's not and haven't been pretty much from the start. And sorry guys, I really have to side with ANet's balance team here, it's really complex to even get close to a(n) (almost) perfect balance in such a way. It's just never gonna happen. So the whole "as equal and viable as all other classes" thing is a Utopia. ... And maybe it could be because of a certain degree of incompetence within the balance team, but I don't think getting even close to class equality is an option either. So in that case let us be a bit - NOT a lot - better than the rest, even if we have to be punished for it in a different sense (see opening post), I still believe we deserve it!OR let me put it differently, in the exact same raid example as above: why do those 4 (maybe 5) professions that have been dominating the raids for quite some time now deserve it more than those other 5 (or 4)???

I kinda disagree with this. The origin of the issue of the necromancer is that he focus on thing that are way to different than other professions. This make the necromancer a kind of ufo in gw2. This have some positive side when the necromancer face another player but it's totally useless when facing mobs.

There was and there is still a need for anet to close the gaps between the necromancer and the other professions. There seem to be no issue giving boon removal to a warrior in e-specs, so why would there be any issue giving the necromancer some foreign tools like mobility, proper support ability, different defensive mechanisms... etc. Anet is stuck into a necromancer design that stand out but fail at PvE and try again and again the same things without achieving anything. It's time that open their eyes and try something new (or old), something that could prove to be usefull (or something that already prove it's worse).

The moment they focused on the hatefull condition management that the necromancer is drowning into since years and thet we know since year that it doesn't work for PvE, the spec was doomed to be op against players and underwhelming in PvE. Barrier wasn't a good idea for PvE it was obvious from the get go like the focus on revive that we got before HoT proved to be wastefull. Boon corruption and condition cleanse are the same, PvE is a barren desert for that, we all know that.

The necromancer need to breath some fresh air since years, yet anet continue to feed him the same rotten air that suffocate him. E-spec are supposed to open new opportunities for the core profession not sink them deeper into what they already are. A spec that aoe corrupt boons and aoe convert condition, we already had that with wells and we already knew that it was only usefull in WvW.

This is not a matter of complexity, this is simply a matter of an idea that doesn't work but that they try really hard to make it work to the point that they only focus on one narrow path, forgetting that there is not just one path.

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