Mirage has too much of everything

I hope that with the new balance patch mirage gets toned down.Atm escpecially in WvW you cannot fight a mirage who knows what he is doing.He has so many instant teleport, invis, invul and stun break skills that a mirage is more overpowered than a daredevil right now, with the exception that mirage fights from range and has his clones on top of that. The clone spamming is real, you cannot destroy them faster than he generates them and they either power burst you down in 1 sec or give you 15 stacks of confusion in 0.5 sec. it is seriously ridiculous.

nerf mirage dmg output and give their teleport and invis skills cast time, well idc what you do but mirage is so beyond broken

Please for the love of god anet don't let mirage slip through your balance patch. The new ult cd should only start when the last charge is used just like you did with the mantras

o.0 mirage brought no stealth, at all. So it has no more stealth than core mesmer does. And its designed to be a dueling class, it will be good in duels until its nerfed into the ground.

Ok so you clearly have no clue what you’re talking about and are just here to rant.

The only time clones do anything more than tickle you is in a condition build and some weird interrupt build. Even then the highest I’ve seen a clone trigger in damage is about 3k in full zerk when you get an interrupt from the sword ambush, 1k from draining sigil and 2k from power block. The majority of the damage from clones come from the conditions which do jack all in a power build but here’s the thing, they travel at base movement speed. Just back off a bit and range them down or better yet get perma swiftness and kite them knowing they cannot catch you, ever.

The only thing I will possibly say in some form of agreement with you is that elusive mind as a trait is beyond broken. It’s stronger than every single daredevil dodge and those are completely overturned. I feel it would be better to split the stun break and the cleanse portion of it up into 2 different non competing traits. Cleanse on dodge in adept or master (perhaps replacing mirage mantle or adding to it) and stunbreak on dodge in GM.

At the moment I’ve fought far too few condi mirages worth fighting to really figure out if condi is strong or weak, most just try to dump everything from stealth where I dodge, BF and then because they blew it all they stealth and run. I tried it myself for 30 mins and decided power was much much better in WvW as I could essentially burst people down that were low especially if fights escalated from small to large scale.

@Ferus.3165 said:Please for the love of god anet don't let mirage slip through your balance patch. The new ult cd should only start when the last charge is used just like you did with the mantras

This alone tells me you are at best a beginner pvp player with 0 idea of what is actually happening in this game.

Mantras got the ammo mechanic back in the August 8th patch. (That's what now, almost 3 months?)

It seems kind of obvious you haven't even invested that much time to get to know your opponent. Pair that with a strong dueling elite spec and yes, I doubt you'll be winnig against mirages any time soon, no matter if they get nerfed or not.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Ferus.3165 said:Please for the love of god anet don't let mirage slip through your balance patch. The new ult cd should only start when the last charge is used just like you did with the mantras

i know they did revert that nerf, and it is ok for mantras because you have to charge them for a lenghty time before you can use them. The new mirage ult however does not have any cd or activation times in most cases so my point stands that it should be nerfed. Double the cd or make it only start the cd when the last charge has been used.

@Ferus.3165 said:my point stands that it should be nerfed.

You didn't even present a reason why it should be changed, besides the fact that you're personally unable to contend with a single short-ranged skill. How is it over-powered? Can another profession not do the same? Which part of Jaunt's mechanic can't you handle? The 450-range blink? The damage? The 20s recharge?

the fact that you cannot fight a mirage and win nor can you run from it (besides thief). Idc that there are 90% bad players running around who have no clue how to play the class, it's just that if you can play reactivly and not just spam random skills, mirage is (just like daredevil) unbeatable

lol. You think Mirage is needed to burst you down in 1 sec?

@Ferus.3165 said:the fact that you cannot fight a mirage and win nor can you run from it (besides thief). Idc that there are 90% bad players running around who have no clue how to play the class, it's just that if you can play reactivly and not just spam random skills, mirage is (just like daredevil) unbeatable

By this "you" is only you right?

@Magolith.9412 said:lol. You think Mirage is needed to burst you down in 1 sec?

nope mirage is not needed for that. and it is ok for core and chrono to do that, because they have to dedicate alot of skills into that potential oneshot, but they (escpecially core mesmer) are far more vulnerable after that. Mirage always has a teleport up, be it with utility skills or ultimate, or can go invis or invul. Mirage has so much of it that by the time you used your last escape you can start from the beginning again. Mirage has the ability to evade (or dodge through teleport or invis) everything that is thrown at him. Mirage has also just as much mobility as a daredevil right now. The combination means that you cannot run from a mirage and you cannot fight a (good) mirage.

If you beat the mirage does not depend on your own skill, but the skills of the mirage, because he has the tools to react to and dogde everything (again just like daredevil). If the player is good enough there is only the daredevil left to win in a fight vs the mirage (that is a skill matchup again, because you cannot reactivly dodge instant cast abilities)

@Ferus.3165 said:the fact that you cannot fight a mirage and win nor can you run from it (besides thief). Idc that there are 90% bad players running around who have no clue how to play the class, it's just that if you can play reactivly and not just spam random skills, mirage is (just like daredevil) unbeatable

So you're upset you're losing to the top 10% of Mirage players? Shouldn't you lose to the top 10% of players generally?

So you are basically saying that most mirages are bad, but if they are actually good, then they shouldn't win anyway? I'm speechless.

Also, you are asking to make Jaunt useless. And what kind of invis skill are you talking about? Mirage provides you with literally 0 additional sources of invisibility, so ???

Why even engage with someone like this? You can't logic someone out of a position they didn't logic themselves into.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone here run duelling line and vigor on shatter for 100% vigor uptime, double energy, meat and orrian truffle stew (or whatever the 40% endurance regen food is) with elusive mind, sword, Jaunt and traveler runes?

I’m guessing most of us have and if you haven’t I’d highly recommend it. It has mobility that is only contested by daredevil in WvW. I cannot in good faith say that mirage as it is now is fine when it is as strong as daredevil which is very overturned for roaming and small scale. While I think the OP is a bad player who is complaining at all the wrong things in all the wrong ways but there are some aspects of mirage that are overturned and mesmer didn’t need another strong condi duelling spec.

@bart.3687 said:So you are basically saying that most mirages are bad, but if they are actually good, then they shouldn't win anyway? I'm speechless.

Also, you are asking to make Jaunt useless. And what kind of invis skill are you talking about? Mirage provides you with literally 0 additional sources of invisibility, so ???

i was never saying mirage is bad, just that most players are.

@apharma.3741 said:Just out of curiosity, has anyone here run duelling line and vigor on shatter for 100% vigor uptime, double energy, meat and orrian truffle stew (or whatever the 40% endurance regen food is) with elusive mind, sword, Jaunt and traveler runes?

I’m guessing most of us have and if you haven’t I’d highly recommend it. It has mobility that is only contested by daredevil in WvW. I cannot in good faith say that mirage as it is now is fine when it is as strong as daredevil which is very overturned for roaming and small scale. While I think the OP is a bad player who is complaining at all the wrong things in all the wrong ways but there are some aspects of mirage that are overturned and mesmer didn’t need another strong condi duelling spec.

idc if you think i am good or not, but at least u understood the problem

So....I don't get? OP complains about being defeated by players who know how to play their Elite class and, as a result, wants the Elite class tuned down as a result?

Also, I lol'd everytime Jaunt was refered to as an ult. Guys I think I found the Overwatch player.

The Elite is fine. If a mirage decides he wants to dump everything into a dueling build? Well, congrats, said Mirage is gonna be practically unkillable to the untrained eye. Kudos to him for knowing his class and knowing how to play it. Though ask that same mirage to bunker a point or join in on a zerg? Nope, he'll get squashed, rightfully so.

@apharma.3741 said:Just out of curiosity, has anyone here run duelling line and vigor on shatter for 100% vigor uptime, double energy, meat and orrian truffle stew (or whatever the 40% endurance regen food is) with elusive mind, sword, Jaunt and traveler runes?

I’m guessing most of us have and if you haven’t I’d highly recommend it. It has mobility that is only contested by daredevil in WvW. I cannot in good faith say that mirage as it is now is fine when it is as strong as daredevil which is very overturned for roaming and small scale. While I think the OP is a bad player who is complaining at all the wrong things in all the wrong ways but there are some aspects of mirage that are overturned and mesmer didn’t need another strong condi duelling spec.

Of course its a good build, elusive mind is a ridiculous trait to begin with. Somethign so powerful should have an ICD, even if its only 5 seconds. That said, you mentioned breaking it up into 2 traits, I 'd put the cleanse in mirage mantle. But that leaves Elusive mind in a weird position. Its too strong to not have an ICD on it imo, but adding an ICD makes it pretty lackluster as a GM trait overall, flavorwise. It doesn't do anything to change how you play as a Mirage.

@OriOri.8724 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Just out of curiosity, has anyone here run duelling line and vigor on shatter for 100% vigor uptime, double energy, meat and orrian truffle stew (or whatever the 40% endurance regen food is) with elusive mind, sword, Jaunt and traveler runes?

I’m guessing most of us have and if you haven’t I’d highly recommend it. It has mobility that is only contested by daredevil in WvW. I cannot in good faith say that mirage as it is now is fine when it is as strong as daredevil which is very overturned for roaming and small scale. While I think the OP is a bad player who is complaining at all the wrong things in all the wrong ways but there are some aspects of mirage that are overturned and mesmer didn’t need another strong condi duelling spec.

I do agree that Elusive Mind is very powerful. It's a crazy upgrade, and it may be hard to balance it. I love the trait, but if they wanted to replace it with something, hmm, more flavourful, I wouldn't say no.

But other that this trait, I don't see anything OP in Mirage. Condi burst? Power burst? Both of these can be done on base mesmer/chrono just as fine, so I don't view it as a good argument against the mirage.If they nerf the mirage too much, I'm afraid it may become useless in any game mode. :anguished:

@Ferus.3165 said:

@bart.3687 said:So you are basically saying that most mirages are bad, but if they are actually good, then they shouldn't win anyway? I'm speechless.

Also, you are asking to make Jaunt useless. And what kind of invis skill are you talking about? Mirage provides you with literally 0 additional sources of invisibility, so ???

You didn't understand what I had said.

@OriOri.8724 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Just out of curiosity, has anyone here run duelling line and vigor on shatter for 100% vigor uptime, double energy, meat and orrian truffle stew (or whatever the 40% endurance regen food is) with elusive mind, sword, Jaunt and traveler runes?

I’m guessing most of us have and if you haven’t I’d highly recommend it. It has mobility that is only contested by daredevil in WvW. I cannot in good faith say that mirage as it is now is fine when it is as strong as daredevil which is very overturned for roaming and small scale. While I think the OP is a bad player who is complaining at all the wrong things in all the wrong ways but there are some aspects of mirage that are overturned and mesmer didn’t need another strong condi duelling spec.

I would like to see the decoupled version of the trait before an ICD, I personally don’t like ICDs as it means you’re instead of playing based on an opponents actions you have to count numbers in your heads to know whether the next dodge will break a stun or not. Stun break on dodge I agree would be extremely strong on its own however when you compare infinite horizon to stunbreak on dodge you get to make a choice. If your build has plenty of stunbreaks (2-3 on low CDs) or you feel you don’t need it you can pick up cleanse on dodge and go infinite horizon alternatively you can drop your stunbreak utilities (ok you’ll probably keep blink) and pick other useful utilities like SoIllu and boon rip while gaining stunbreaks through traits.

We will have to see what happens but I don’t feel any of the other traits are too strong atm or at least don’t stick out like elusive mind.

@apharma.3741 said:Just out of curiosity, has anyone here run duelling line and vigor on shatter for 100% vigor uptime, double energy, meat and orrian truffle stew (or whatever the 40% endurance regen food is) with elusive mind, sword, Jaunt and traveler runes?

I’m guessing most of us have and if you haven’t I’d highly recommend it. It has mobility that is only contested by daredevil in WvW. I cannot in good faith say that mirage as it is now is fine when it is as strong as daredevil which is very overturned for roaming and small scale. While I think the OP is a bad player who is complaining at all the wrong things in all the wrong ways but there are some aspects of mirage that are overturned and mesmer didn’t need another strong condi duelling spec.

almost every class could get much vigor + evade frame . DD is much more overturned .

the only problem is EM , stunbreaker on dodge is kinda crazy . but Mirage trait line doesn't really offer much ,unless anet could fix mesmer or mirage sustain dmg . EM is kinda needed for mirage defense otherwise it's hardly good in pvp . since they nerfed inspiration line for sake of chrono .now we rely heavily on burst dmg (condi or power)even more .

anet nerfed condition duration food already . if some food and sigil balance are issue , nerf them instead . DD and weaver could "exploit" those sigil and food as well . their dodge attacks are arguably better than our ambush (well we all only really use sword ambush anyway .)and using all those setup does count as heavily investment . meanwhile DD could invest more into dmg or interrupt sigil which is more overpowered . with current meta ,i really don't think EM needs a nerf . and I'm the one who already said before pof , EM is broken op , but it has to carry the whole rather meh trait line to make mirage semi viable in pvp .and let's be honest roaming or wvw balance is a mess .and the general skill level of wvw players are rather low .you can't take them seriously. you can't balance a (duelist)class around the power level against players like op . we already had enough random nerf and buff .

and power mirage is a thing .basically EM allows every mes build get rid of inspiration and still have decent condition removal which is still not strong comparing with other class but mesmer has stronger burst .it also server an anti oneshot defense for mesmer .that's also the reason why thieves complaint about mirage the most . distortion used to server this purpose , Blinding Dissipation also helps . but currently those two have way too high cost without chrono . EM is necessary evil but maybe it's not even enough to make mesmer meta in pvp (check AT ).

we are carried by one single trait this time just like how we are carried by one single skill SOI for pve .ofc they have to be op .or you know how about buff core mesmer and rework mirage . but meh . can you imagine DD without Escapist's Absolution which is far more powerful than EM .but without it DD won't survive in today's meta .

and to op if you think mirage elite jaunt is op . maybe you should check Rocket Boots , Shadowstep etc .

@apharma.3741 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Just out of curiosity, has anyone here run duelling line and vigor on shatter for 100% vigor uptime, double energy, meat and orrian truffle stew (or whatever the 40% endurance regen food is) with elusive mind, sword, Jaunt and traveler runes?

I’m guessing most of us have and if you haven’t I’d highly recommend it. It has mobility that is only contested by daredevil in WvW. I cannot in good faith say that mirage as it is now is fine when it is as strong as daredevil which is very overturned for roaming and small scale. While I think the OP is a bad player who is complaining at all the wrong things in all the wrong ways but there are some aspects of mirage that are overturned and mesmer didn’t need another strong condi duelling spec.

I don't like them either, but stunbreak on dodge is too powerful, even if its by itself. Even without any vigor at all, this is a stunbreak every 10 seconds, on a trait no less. With vigor, this is potentially a stunbreak every 5 seconds, from a trait. That's absurd honestly. It needs a ICD, because as it is now, it gives you 2 stunbreaks, back to back, and then at most 10 seconds later you have another stunbreak. It makes mirage way too resistance from stuns considering that's just a single trait doing all of that. A 5 second ICD wouldn't make you lose any stunbreaks over time since it would line up with maximum endurance refill, but it would at least allow enemies a brief window to try to stun you again and take advantage of it.

@Ferus.3165 said:

@bart.3687 said:So you are basically saying that most mirages are bad, but if they are actually good, then they shouldn't win anyway? I'm speechless.

Also, you are asking to make Jaunt useless. And what kind of invis skill are you talking about? Mirage provides you with literally 0 additional sources of invisibility, so ???

just let you know , one of best mesmer misha was playing spellbreaker in AT . another best mesmer was doing stream shitting on mirage coz mirage is not meta .so your idea of 10 % good mirage players don't exist . and by your logic , bad mirages are bad, you as a "good" player without a single clue should be able to beat them anyway .what you ask here ?> @OriOri.8724 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Just out of curiosity, has anyone here run duelling line and vigor on shatter for 100% vigor uptime, double energy, meat and orrian truffle stew (or whatever the 40% endurance regen food is) with elusive mind, sword, Jaunt and traveler runes?

I’m guessing most of us have and if you haven’t I’d highly recommend it. It has mobility that is only contested by daredevil in WvW. I cannot in good faith say that mirage as it is now is fine when it is as strong as daredevil which is very overturned for roaming and small scale. While I think the OP is a bad player who is complaining at all the wrong things in all the wrong ways but there are some aspects of mirage that are overturned and mesmer didn’t need another strong condi duelling spec.

while without ICD , they could make it consume full endurance when stuck break or each time you stunbreak with a dodge , you also lose one boon + vigor (like spellbreaker heal ).

but we do need a proper trait line when they get rid of the opness from this trait .chance is low sadly .

@apharma.3741 said:Just out of curiosity, has anyone here run duelling line and vigor on shatter for 100% vigor uptime, double energy, meat and orrian truffle stew (or whatever the 40% endurance regen food is) with elusive mind, sword, Jaunt and traveler runes?

I’m guessing most of us have and if you haven’t I’d highly recommend it. It has mobility that is only contested by daredevil in WvW. I cannot in good faith say that mirage as it is now is fine when it is as strong as daredevil which is very overturned for roaming and small scale. While I think the OP is a bad player who is complaining at all the wrong things in all the wrong ways but there are some aspects of mirage that are overturned and mesmer didn’t need another strong condi duelling spec.

I have, with adventurer runes, traited mirror and signet of inspiration for boon synergy and swiftness. Mobility is still fine without traveler actually, there are ways to get around and I haven't felt worried about disengaging. I won't lie - duelling/chaos/mirage with double energy sigils, adventurer rune with traited mirror heal and perma vigour with food and elusive mind is a strong wvw roamer. But then it's no stronger than most of the competition - which makes it acceptable. Condi chrono is far more brainless than evade spam Condi mirage.

However while mirage is definitely hard to hit if you build correctly, it is nowhere near the evade spam of what DD can build for.

The ONLY remotely overpowered trait on mirage is stunbreak on dodge. Very forgiving, very easy to use. I think that if Infinite Horizon is made a minor trait then the stunbreak portion of elusive mind could be looked at - providing cc spam is also looked at... Think of it this way, a mirage using sword ambush interrupt spam kind of necessitates the opponent mirage having access to stunbreak on dodge as a counter. In a vacuum the stunbreak every 5s may ne overpowered but in the state of the game as a whole I argue that it's not overly strong due to the sheer quantity of cc spam that can be output by a variety of classes and builds.

Nothing else is overpowered tbh - remember that while we can evade a lot, we don't have the sustained healing on mirage like chrono or many other classes can. If you take Inspiration you can't get the evade spam and don't have chrono shatterspam to make the most of RI. The only sustained healing evade spamming mirage gets is regen.

So it's fairly balanced tbh.

@apharma.3741 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Just out of curiosity, has anyone here run duelling line and vigor on shatter for 100% vigor uptime, double energy, meat and orrian truffle stew (or whatever the 40% endurance regen food is) with elusive mind, sword, Jaunt and traveler runes?

I’m guessing most of us have and if you haven’t I’d highly recommend it. It has mobility that is only contested by daredevil in WvW. I cannot in good faith say that mirage as it is now is fine when it is as strong as daredevil which is very overturned for roaming and small scale. While I think the OP is a bad player who is complaining at all the wrong things in all the wrong ways but there are some aspects of mirage that are overturned and mesmer didn’t need another strong condi duelling spec.

Agreed. Whether or not Elusive Mind is overpowered, putting an internal cooldown on it would be a sloppy "fix" that would render it marginally useful, at best. It would be different if dodge wasn't so heavily linked to mirage's primary mechanic, but we're made to use dodge so frequently to activate ambushes (and summon clones in some builds), that it would be hard to trigger Elusive Mind when we wanted. It'd make it little more than luck-based, as in you're lucky if you dodge to break a stun and it's actually off cooldown. And then you just waste endurance if it's not.