On Gods, Forgotten, Humans and Dragons

Hey there lore-addicts, I have a mystery that perhaps you guys can help me solve.

I was going through the lore recently with a friend, and I found something that interesting/confusing. Maybe I misinterpreted the lore or I forgot a piece of crucial information. Here goes:

• We know the 6 Gods arrive on the world of Tyria in 786 BE. They bring humanity with them.
• However, we also know that (or suspect at least) the Forgotten were brought to Tyria by the Six (there was book in Secret Section of the Durmand Priory that corroborates this, iirc). However, the Forgotten were there during the last Dragonrise, which should predate 786 BE, since humans were not around for the last rise of the Elder Dragons, and the fact Glaust was cleansed at least 3,000 years ago.
• Lastly, I remember, somewhere in PoT, it is claimed the Gods killed at least two other Elder Dragons in the past. (I could have misunderstood this part?)

The first point I would like to think as hard canon. Therefore. my question is: Did the Original Six Human Gods come to Tyria multiple times? Once dumping the Forgotten and the second time dumping the humans on Tyria? Or is this an oversight by ANet? Or something else entirely?

I appreciate the feedback!

"It is said that they were placed on the world of Tyria in 1769 BE by the Six Gods in order to guide the other races." - exactly who said this I keep trying to find traces of, but that puts them on Tyria for a century before humanity arrives.

About your second point; according to the book in Durmand Priory The Forgotten Not Forgotten, the Forgotten came from the Mists, so presumeably "recruited" from there by the Six Gods, seeing as they were the ones placing them on Tyria as their loyal servants.

Looking at the History of Tyria text for the original Guild Wars, it begins with "It was almost three thousand years ago that a race of serpents stepped out of the Rift onto the soil of Tyria." and if you take 1786 BE + ~1070-1075 AE, you'll get "almost 3000", so that makes sense according to descriptions. Now we can add another 250 years to that, which puts us past 3000 years the Forgotten have been around. That Glaust was cleansed at least 3000 years ago, opens for the Forgotten being around at that time. However, the last dragonrise cycle was allegedly 10000 years ago, so in this there might be a lore discrepancy wrt. the Forgotten in Tyria.

Thank you for finding the name of the book, that's what I was thinking of. And the rest of the information is quite useful.

But that still the leaves the question from before: Did the Six come to Tyria once before, and then left, only to return once more, roughly a thousand years later, to bring Humans?

Hm... revised my comment but for some reason forum won't let me edit....Anyhow, if you note above the History of Tyria manuscript states the Forgotten "stepped out of the Rift onto the soil of Tyria" - this contradicts them being placed on Tyria by the Six Gods - but rather, as it continues, summoned by the Six Gods to act as custodians/wardens to the other races. If they were hidden by Glint after the last cycle of the Elder Dragons, they could either be on Tyria or back in the Mists during those 7000 years...

Also - reading a bit more, Glaust was actually cleansed during the last Dragonrise, which dates it to over 10000 years ago, not 3000. Hm, looking more into this, the same scholar who wrote that book is met in Orr; where you learn more about Glint, then Glaust, and how the Forgotten were around to perform the cleansing ritual at the Altar of Glaust, free her of Kralkatorrik's Corruption. So this scholar, Warden Illyra, places the Forgotten in Tyria during the last Dragonrise. The speech of the last Forgotten, transcribed by the Vabbian scholar, A Study in Gold, also indicates they were around during the last Dragonrise; also citing the Seers and the other ancient races being present.

So - as an ancient race - which seems like a term used about certain races in Tyria that the Six Gods had no affair in creating - the Forgotten may predate the arrival of the Six. We only know the Six Gods arrived in Tyria; started nurturing the world and summon the Forgotten to act as wardens of the world they're creating, and eventually they bring/create humanity as well.

One of my favorite theories on this subject, given the apparent timeline discrepancies, is that the Forgotten were actually the ones to bring the gods (or at least find them and convince them to come) to Tyria- perhaps as a way of cleansing and revitalizing a world that was presumably still marred by widespread dragon corruption. Later human scholars, not knowing anything about the Elder Dragons, and only knowing stories that the Forgotten came out of the Mists not long after the gods arrived, might then have gotten the cause backwards.

The third point is a misunderstanding, I'm pretty sure. When they refer to two dragons being killed, they're referring to Zhaitan and Mordy. The way the instance is set up makes it easy to come away with the impression that it was ancient history, however.

Regarding the Dragonrise... there is evidence to suggest that there are at least two separate Dragonrises. One happened ten thousand years ago, and wiped out the Giganticus Lupicus. The other ended about three thousand years ago. There are a few hints floating around that the last time civilisation was rebuilt was about three thousand years ago - for instance, the oldest Dwarven ruins (and, I think, the Tome of the Rubicon itself) are all said to be about that old.

@Yereton.8647 said:

• Lastly, I remember, somewhere in PoT, it is claimed the Gods killed at least two other Elder Dragons in the past. (I could have misunderstood this part?)Pretty sure you misinterpreted that part. Before the Pact defeated Zhaitan, it was unknown if any of the elder dragons could be defeated. You must be thinking of how Palawa Joko is claiming to have defeated Zhaitan and Mordremoth.

Glint hid the forgotten right? but where, did she hide them, in the mists? so the gods could summon them back from the mists later?

Did the dragons truly rise 3000 years ago or only there champions, preparing for a rise?

Hmmm. This has definitely given me food for thought. After reading this, I am happy to believe: > @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

One of my favorite theories on this subject, given the apparent timeline discrepancies, is that the Forgotten were actually the ones to bring the gods (or at least find them and convince them to come) to Tyria- perhaps as a way of cleansing and revitalizing a world that was presumably still marred by widespread dragon corruption. Later human scholars, not knowing anything about the Elder Dragons, and only knowing stories that the Forgotten came out of the Mists not long after the gods arrived, might then have gotten the cause backwards.

So it could be a lot of hearsay and corruption of information over the millennia. Then that begs the question, what did the Six do to warrant such intense worship from the Forgotten. I understand the humans, since from the moment the stepped into Tyria they had the immensely powerful gods on their side. But the Forgotten on the other hand, if they are a race predating the Six (and that's what it sounds like), with their own powerful magic, it seems silly that they start worshipping them as deities.

@draxynnic.3719 said:The third point is a misunderstanding, I'm pretty sure. When they refer to two dragons being killed, they're referring to Zhaitan and Mordy. The way the instance is set up makes it easy to come away with the impression that it was ancient history, however.

I am going to redo that instance soon, so hopefully it will be clearer this time around.

@draxynnic.3719 said:Regarding the Dragonrise... there is evidence to suggest that there are at least two separate Dragonrises. One happened ten thousand years ago, and wiped out the Giganticus Lupicus. The other ended about three thousand years ago. There are a few hints floating around that the last time civilisation was rebuilt was about three thousand years ago - for instance, the oldest Dwarven ruins (and, I think, the Tome of the Rubicon itself) are all said to be about that old.

The alleged Dragonrise about three thousand years ago conflicts with some information learned in the game though. For example the dialogue with Varra Skylark at the end of Jotun path in the Arah dungeon where you encounter the Mystic Telescope. It fails to mention any Dragonrise 3000 years ago, which would've been the last one, so could it be there were only Champions alive during the episode 3000 years ago?

"It shows that the awakening of the dragons is a natural and cyclical thing. The stars only indicate the passing ages. They do not determine events here.

Around ten thousand years ago. You know what this means? The Elder Dragons may have been responsible for the extinction of the Giganticus Lupicus!"

The "Around ten thousand years ago." is the response to your question "when did this last happen?".

Yeah, there is the contradiction there. One thing worth noting is that we don't know HOW long the dragons stay awake - the last cycle might have been from ten thousand years ago to three thousand years ago.

Another consideration is that the Jotun path has been contradicted fairly heavily already. It implied that the dragons simply rose at preset times, but we've now had Kormir tell us that the dragons rose as a result of the events around Guild Wars 1.

Certainly, there seems to be something significant about three thousand years ago, in any sense.

@draxynnic.3719 said:Yeah, there is the contradiction there. One thing worth noting is that we don't know HOW long the dragons stay awake - the last cycle might have been from ten thousand years ago to three thousand years ago.

Another consideration is that the Jotun path has been contradicted fairly heavily already. It implied that the dragons simply rose at preset times, but we've now had Kormir tell us that the dragons rose as a result of the events around Guild Wars 1.

Certainly, there seems to be something significant about three thousand years ago, in any sense.

While Varra Skylark does seem to suggest that the Mystic Telescope was used to predict Elder Dragon awakenings (which doesn't seem like it'd be possible from what we now know), the fact that the dragonrise is written in the stars isn't constrained at all by the fact that dragonrises can be unpredictable. We now know that the jotun believed that the awakening of the Elder Dragons "moves the Anitkytheria", which in turn alters the constellations themselves. It seems entities powerful enough have this capability, which is actually something we've known for a very long time.

Each path of the Ruined City of Arah explorable mode delivers a "lore reward", a big revelation that changes or reframes what we thought we already knew. The "lore reward" of the jotun path is the discovery that the last dragonrise took place 10,000 years ago. It doesn't make sense from a story perspective to have that dungeon deliver a load of deliberately misleading lore.

I think the significance of three thousand years ago is just that this is when it was originally stated that Glint and the Forgotten came to Tyria, Glint being the first creature created by the gods and the Forgotten having been brought with them from the Mists (and humans arriving much later) to act as the world's stewards. This has all been retconned with the retrofitting of Glint and the Forgotten's stories to the story that ANet wanted to tell about the Elder Dragons (which is told through another of Arah's explorable paths). As far as I know, the only part of it left intact is the suggestion that the Forgotten came from the Mists originally (but now much earlier than we previously thought).

The other thing that makes three thousand years ago seem significant is Magister Sieran's line that "The dwarven civilization lasted for more than two thousand years" (which makes the beginning of dwarven civilisation was about three thousand years ago - assuming that we don't take the statement too literally, as ten thousand years is indeed "more than" two thousand years). This doesn't necessarily mean that the last dragonrise was therefore three thousand years ago, especially as Sieran is a member of the Durmand Priory, who have since come to accept that the last dragonrise was around 11,000 years ago. If the Priory knew of some other dragonrise, I don't think the writers would have had Sieran casually drop that into the conversation and then withhold any further discussion of that critical plot point. Similarly, if the Priory were aware of such an obvious discrepancy, that would have been presented more clearly to players. As a final point, we know that dwarves and jotun were building weaponry in 10,000 BE, which indicates that they have some kind of civilisation.

Varra Skylark also says that the stars aren't affected by events on Tyria. She may be wrong about that - the Guild Wars universe clearly doesn't work on the same rules that ours does, so it's possible that some mechanism for the dragons to affect the stars does exist (in fact, Guild Wars Factions gives us evidence that events on Tyria can change the stars). Once the 'unreliable narrator' principle is applied on one thing, though, she could also be wrong about others. Therefore, her saying something does not necessarily override evidence found to the contrary elsewhere.

Now, the dwarves and jotun do appear as if they were civilised in 10000BE. I do not contest this. The impression I get from the previous dragonrise is that the Elder Dragons basically trashed everything, with the survivors of the Elder Races huddling under Glint's protection in the end. Only afterwards were they able to go out and rebuild.

And we're seeing a lot of evidence that said last rebuilding phase happened around 3000 years ago. Now, that could be because the dragons last went to sleep around then. Or it could be that something else was preventing the races from rebuilding before then.

@Yereton.8647 said:Hey there lore-addicts, I have a mystery that perhaps you guys can help me solve.

I was going through the lore recently with a friend, and I found something that interesting/confusing. Maybe I misinterpreted the lore or I forgot a piece of crucial information. Here goes:

• We know the 6 Gods arrive on the world of Tyria in 786 BE. They bring humanity with them.
• However, we also know that (or suspect at least) the Forgotten were brought to Tyria by the Six (there was book in Secret Section of the Durmand Priory that corroborates this, iirc). However, the Forgotten were there during the last Dragonrise, which should predate 786 BE, since humans were not around for the last rise of the Elder Dragons, and the fact Glaust was cleansed at least 3,000 years ago.
• Lastly, I remember, somewhere in PoT, it is claimed the Gods killed at least two other Elder Dragons in the past. (I could have misunderstood this part?)

The first point I would like to think as hard canon. Therefore. my question is: Did the Original Six Human Gods come to Tyria multiple times? Once dumping the Forgotten and the second time dumping the humans on Tyria? Or is this an oversight by ANet? Or something else entirely?

I appreciate the feedback!

1. 786 BE is when the gods brought humanity to Cantha, not the world. They were on the world beforehand, but we do not know for how long.
2. We don't actually know the dates of the last dragonrise. Despite two Priory scholar's claims, there is significant evidence that puts the Elder Dragons being awake not just 11,000 years ago, but 3,000 years ago (age of oldest dwarven structure, when Forgotten arrived on Tyria, age of Glint). Whether this means the last dragonrise lasted 8,000 years or the Priory are mistaking two dragonrises ago with the latest dragonrise is unclear.
3. You're referring to the Kesho cinematic. That... is a confusing cinematic by wording, but it refers to the deaths of Zhaitan and Mordremoth.

@Amanda Whitemoon.6173 said:Glint hid the forgotten right? but where, did she hide them, in the mists? so the gods could summon them back from the mists later?

Did the dragons truly rise 3000 years ago or only there champions, preparing for a rise?

Glint hid all surviving races, but we don't know how. Presumably in a pocket dimension like her lair. It was the mursaat who fled to the Mists, the others remained on Tyria.